SOUTHEND 5
Pain in the R's
There is absolutely nothing marginal about the easyJet operation from SEN in safety terms. It may be more prone to operational difficulties than other airports but that is essentially a commercial matter,
To avoid a time consuming debate that could clog up this thread may I suggest you do some reading of your own. The CAA Skybrary has a good explanation of the subject: -
Engine Failure During Takeoff - Multi-Engine Transport Category Jet Aircraft - SKYbrary Aviation Safety.
The point is that the RTOW calculation has to take account of OEI obstacle clearance issues well outside the confines of the airport and its TODA.
If you want to see the location of trees then the SEN Type A chart in the UK IAIP should show all you want to know, in particular the difference in terrain contours and obstacle profile between RW06 and RW24.
Worth remembering also that the SEN TODA i s limited to the standard maximum allowed to Code 3C airports, i.e. 1799m even though this falls before the end of the runway in both cases.
To avoid a time consuming debate that could clog up this thread may I suggest you do some reading of your own. The CAA Skybrary has a good explanation of the subject: -
Engine Failure During Takeoff - Multi-Engine Transport Category Jet Aircraft - SKYbrary Aviation Safety.
The point is that the RTOW calculation has to take account of OEI obstacle clearance issues well outside the confines of the airport and its TODA.
If you want to see the location of trees then the SEN Type A chart in the UK IAIP should show all you want to know, in particular the difference in terrain contours and obstacle profile between RW06 and RW24.
Worth remembering also that the SEN TODA i s limited to the standard maximum allowed to Code 3C airports, i.e. 1799m even though this falls before the end of the runway in both cases.
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Southend Thud
Interesting that the Overharssens had to be deployed within 10 minutes of snowfall. That is unheard of in airfield winter planning terms.
as stated any decent anti icing product should take care of up 2 cm's of snow.
By actually deploying snow equipment so early you are not allowing time for the product to work on the falling snow and also you are actually sweeping away the product leaving an untreated runway ! Bit of an own goal
It could also mean
1. the product used is not up to scratch and had gone past its sell by date
2. it was not put down correctly or at the required rate.
Interesting that the Overharssens had to be deployed within 10 minutes of snowfall. That is unheard of in airfield winter planning terms.
as stated any decent anti icing product should take care of up 2 cm's of snow.
By actually deploying snow equipment so early you are not allowing time for the product to work on the falling snow and also you are actually sweeping away the product leaving an untreated runway ! Bit of an own goal
It could also mean
1. the product used is not up to scratch and had gone past its sell by date
2. it was not put down correctly or at the required rate.
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SEN Daily Operations - Some Perspective from the Pointy End
With respect to recent (and some not so recent) events regarding SEN runway performance / take off weight issues / winter operations and the comments on such topics, I think we need to take a step back and observe the big picture.
Every member of EZY (SEN) and SEN / Stobart frontline staff deal with the daily challenges presented to them with the resources, remit and budget they have. I include the runway and its infrastructure in this.
Without going into the technicalities (there are some extremely knowledgable people on here who can do that for me) let us imagine a hypothetical scenario:
Tomorrow, EZY caps every flight which has ever had a weight-related issue at a 75% passenger load. At the same time, SEN spends tens of millions of pounds on the latest and greatest aircraft and runway deicing equipment and employs 50 more staff.
How far down the road of diminishing returns would we be then? It must be remembered that this a commercial venture for all parties involved and it must remain viable. Could this type of expenditure be justified or even sustained when we analyse the figures and realise that in 3 years of operations, issues such as these have actually only happened on very few occasions?
EZY's operation at SEN has been successful. SEN is continually one of the best ranking EZY bases for on time performance and we all know that passengers enjoy SEN. This is almost entirely down to the frontline SEN / Stobart employees. Unlike other airports (I've seen a few) there is no "them and us" between EZY and Stobart personnel. This is the beauty of SEN's comparatively small size. It's not "the dispatcher / fuel man / tug driver / ATC / engineer" it's "Rita / Sue / Bob / Harry / Sally." This makes the operation work very well.
It's easy to become blasé about the fact that we're launching aeroplanes into the sky - remember it entails an enormous amount of associated planning, support and oversight from all parties involved. Factor in the vagaries of Mother Nature and, on occasion, s**t happens! We then deal with it the best we can using the means at our disposal.
Every member of EZY (SEN) and SEN / Stobart frontline staff deal with the daily challenges presented to them with the resources, remit and budget they have. I include the runway and its infrastructure in this.
Without going into the technicalities (there are some extremely knowledgable people on here who can do that for me) let us imagine a hypothetical scenario:
Tomorrow, EZY caps every flight which has ever had a weight-related issue at a 75% passenger load. At the same time, SEN spends tens of millions of pounds on the latest and greatest aircraft and runway deicing equipment and employs 50 more staff.
How far down the road of diminishing returns would we be then? It must be remembered that this a commercial venture for all parties involved and it must remain viable. Could this type of expenditure be justified or even sustained when we analyse the figures and realise that in 3 years of operations, issues such as these have actually only happened on very few occasions?
EZY's operation at SEN has been successful. SEN is continually one of the best ranking EZY bases for on time performance and we all know that passengers enjoy SEN. This is almost entirely down to the frontline SEN / Stobart employees. Unlike other airports (I've seen a few) there is no "them and us" between EZY and Stobart personnel. This is the beauty of SEN's comparatively small size. It's not "the dispatcher / fuel man / tug driver / ATC / engineer" it's "Rita / Sue / Bob / Harry / Sally." This makes the operation work very well.
It's easy to become blasé about the fact that we're launching aeroplanes into the sky - remember it entails an enormous amount of associated planning, support and oversight from all parties involved. Factor in the vagaries of Mother Nature and, on occasion, s**t happens! We then deal with it the best we can using the means at our disposal.
Last edited by BK100; 2nd Feb 2015 at 16:01.
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Well, that's a refreshingly candid and true statement. I commend the concept to the forum....
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BK100
Agree with most of what you state however with the size of SEN's operation you do not need to spend millions on all singing all dancing snow equipment.
The "Art" of dealing with snow and adverse weather comes down to experience, and knowledge and in turn the correct decision making, for example when to anti Ice, sweep or sit tight and let the product to its work. Also having the correct tools in front of you ( proper Met forecasting) goes a long way.
If you do not pay for the forecasting then you are already on a sticky wicket and a downhill slope and playing catch up ! SEN had no contract in place with either Open runway or Meteogroup up to December. Basically they did not want to pay and had the attitude " It did not snow last year so why pay for something that may not happen". Every other airport in the UK has one or the other and a few have both just to give them that confidence.
That may have well changed since then but that is the wrong attitude to start with.
Agree with most of what you state however with the size of SEN's operation you do not need to spend millions on all singing all dancing snow equipment.
The "Art" of dealing with snow and adverse weather comes down to experience, and knowledge and in turn the correct decision making, for example when to anti Ice, sweep or sit tight and let the product to its work. Also having the correct tools in front of you ( proper Met forecasting) goes a long way.
If you do not pay for the forecasting then you are already on a sticky wicket and a downhill slope and playing catch up ! SEN had no contract in place with either Open runway or Meteogroup up to December. Basically they did not want to pay and had the attitude " It did not snow last year so why pay for something that may not happen". Every other airport in the UK has one or the other and a few have both just to give them that confidence.
That may have well changed since then but that is the wrong attitude to start with.
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*New Route/New Airline*
Well some good news it would appear. New route 2x weekly (possibly rising to 3 if demands require) to Klagenfurt (Austria) by new airline Air Kärnten, using a leased 50 seat CRJ200 aircraft from May to be announced next Monday. No website and only a large press statement in Austria. This takes over the London-Stansted route dropped by Ryanair in 2013. Looks like this start-up might actually get off the ground and has been planning this operation and negotiating a deal for some time. The article also comments on how SEN is 60 km from London and that it handled over a million pax last year.
Here is the link but needs translating: http://www.kleinezeitung.at/k/kaernt...nach-London-ab
Here is the link but needs translating: http://www.kleinezeitung.at/k/kaernt...nach-London-ab
Last edited by tws123; 4th Feb 2015 at 21:52.
Obviously any start-up airline has to be viewed with caution and it's unclear whether Air Karnten (Air Carinthia) will have its own AOC or will be a virtual operator. Any number of start-ups in the past have reached this stage and yet not commenced operations.
That aside though, the STN-KLU route carried over 4,000 pax per month until it was pulled in November 2013, peaking at 5,000 in August of that year. You can certainly never compare a Ryanair route's success with that of a new operator using a leased CRJ200, but it might have potential as the main shareholder appears to be the major Austrian travel agency Gruber Reisen so charter routes to the Mediterranean/Greek destinations will presumably be part of their operational mix.
That aside though, the STN-KLU route carried over 4,000 pax per month until it was pulled in November 2013, peaking at 5,000 in August of that year. You can certainly never compare a Ryanair route's success with that of a new operator using a leased CRJ200, but it might have potential as the main shareholder appears to be the major Austrian travel agency Gruber Reisen so charter routes to the Mediterranean/Greek destinations will presumably be part of their operational mix.
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We know all too well about start-ups but one thing I must commend them on is that they haven't been giving out false/missed start dates and they have been pretty much under the radar until today. They also seem to have (as expressflight points out) quite a bit of expertise and financial backing behind the operations, plus the press conference which has been scheduled for next Monday should hopefully outline their operations with a view to starting flights in May. Dare I say it but they seem very well organised so lets hope they can actually get off the ground!
Last edited by tws123; 3rd Feb 2015 at 15:24.
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They've got six customers. We travel annually to visit family in Styria, about 2 hrs drive from Klagenfurt, or the same from Vienna. If it means we can fly from Southend rather than shlep it all the way to Heathrow with my elderly grandmother, you can count us in!
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Reading some of the (translated) comments from the Austrian people on the potential new airline and London route they seem quite happy as they would no longer have to go to Vienna and connect onto London and also they appear rather concerned about the falling pax numbers at KLU and see this as a boost to the airport. Comments where also focusing on how the STN route had some sort of funding support, and when this was withdrawn Ryanair pulled out.
Meanwhile, I see SAS are looking at moving some capacity to an alternative London airport after selling some slot pairs at LHR. Another airline SEN should be straight on the phone to especially with them targeting CPH as a new destination and Stockholm recently dropped by BACF at LCY...
Meanwhile, I see SAS are looking at moving some capacity to an alternative London airport after selling some slot pairs at LHR. Another airline SEN should be straight on the phone to especially with them targeting CPH as a new destination and Stockholm recently dropped by BACF at LCY...
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TWS comments
I would like to commend TWS's comments. I tried my own attempt at translating those readers comments and am pleased I appeared right!
I didn't know about the SAS issue, that could well be a possibility, it's just a case of whether SEN can sell themselves to what is (after all) a national carrier. But who knows?
I didn't know about the SAS issue, that could well be a possibility, it's just a case of whether SEN can sell themselves to what is (after all) a national carrier. But who knows?
Air Karnten / Klagenfurt
Pleasant though Klagenfurt is as a city, there's not a huge amount of tourist interest in town, and it's a bit of a commercial backwater for international trade. Last time I visited the region around Klagenfurt in late September 2013, the resort villages on the nearby lakes had pretty much closed for the year, suggesting inward tourist potential to the region may be very seasonal. I imagine most traffic on a London-Klagenfurt route will be people either living in Austria, or with strong family / cultural ties to Austria.
Carinthia which includes the main urban centres of Klagenfurt and Villach has a population around 550,000 - a bit less than Gloucestershire in the UK. The state of Carinthia has a very low population density - below that of even the most rural English county.
From Ljubljana airport to Klagenfurt is an hour's drive, or 50 mins to Villach. There's also a (pretty infrequent) train from Villach to Kranj, close to LJU. There is also a coach service from Klagenfurt city centre direct to LJU. Presumably Klagenfurt / Villach residents wanting to travel to London are already aware of Easyjet flying LJU-LGW and Wizz flying LJU-LTN and also have the means or know how to get to/from LJU.
Apart from Ryanair at Stansted, the most obvious choice of London airport for a Klagenfurt route is definitely Southend. I imagine that a 50 seat jet will imply non-trivial CASK figures, even with low oil prices and a cheap(ish) lease on an old airframe. I intend to buy a ticket, but I think that Southend-Klagenfurt may need quite a lot of advertising to work commercially.
Carinthia which includes the main urban centres of Klagenfurt and Villach has a population around 550,000 - a bit less than Gloucestershire in the UK. The state of Carinthia has a very low population density - below that of even the most rural English county.
From Ljubljana airport to Klagenfurt is an hour's drive, or 50 mins to Villach. There's also a (pretty infrequent) train from Villach to Kranj, close to LJU. There is also a coach service from Klagenfurt city centre direct to LJU. Presumably Klagenfurt / Villach residents wanting to travel to London are already aware of Easyjet flying LJU-LGW and Wizz flying LJU-LTN and also have the means or know how to get to/from LJU.
Apart from Ryanair at Stansted, the most obvious choice of London airport for a Klagenfurt route is definitely Southend. I imagine that a 50 seat jet will imply non-trivial CASK figures, even with low oil prices and a cheap(ish) lease on an old airframe. I intend to buy a ticket, but I think that Southend-Klagenfurt may need quite a lot of advertising to work commercially.
Last edited by davidjohnson6; 4th Feb 2015 at 23:27.
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Agree totally with davidjohnson6, this route is undoubtedly based on the demand at KLU, but it will take advertising at both ends to make it work, especially with a brand new unheard of airline to a relatively unheard of airport in Austria. At the other end however, I suspect not many would have heard of SEN, but it has the advantage of 'London' in its name which should hopefully sell it to the locals.
Neile1 - Many thanks, Google translate is a winner!
Neile1 - Many thanks, Google translate is a winner!
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SAS Sells Heathrow Slot Pair for $60 Million :: Routesonline
“The intention is to keep the seat capacity to/from London Heathrow through the use of larger aircraft on remaining departures,” said a spokesman for SAS, who hinted that the carrier could look to introduce flights to alternative London airports, particularly on routes with large point-to-point demand. “Furthermore, SAS will consider the use of other airports in the London region,” he said.
“The intention is to keep the seat capacity to/from London Heathrow through the use of larger aircraft on remaining departures,” said a spokesman for SAS, who hinted that the carrier could look to introduce flights to alternative London airports, particularly on routes with large point-to-point demand. “Furthermore, SAS will consider the use of other airports in the London region,” he said.
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Air Karnten (Air Carinthia) Confirmed
So more info released today. Flights start on 28th May 2015 (currently on sale until 31st October 2015), flying on Thursday and Sunday. The CRJ200 is due to arrive at Klagenfurt in April and at that time tickets will go on sale priced at 175 euros one-way including 15kg bag available at Air Kärnten which went live today. Also mentions some tickets at 99 euros.
Last edited by tws123; 9th Feb 2015 at 19:58.
The webpage (single page, not a site) for Air Karnten is no better than a small travel agent flogging seats on a charter flight. In place of a booking / reservations capable website, customers are invited to email the parent travel agent and await a reply. Even basic things like info on flight times is missing - fine for booking a very cheap week's holiday in the sun, but not when you're charging high fares payable by people who value saving time over price. It's not even possible to switch to a language other than german.
The business model is giving me cause for concern - a 50 seat jet on sectors of 2+ hours at high fares to take people on holiday from a rural area not known for wealthy inhabitants is unusual at best. Ljubljana, only an hour's drive away has plenty of charter flights to the beach, and Klagenfurt is not London City. This is starting to look like a hybrid of Flynonstop and OLT.
Gruber Reisen appear not to realise scheduled and charter airline customers behave differently. The business plan and webpage needs work. Urgently.
The business model is giving me cause for concern - a 50 seat jet on sectors of 2+ hours at high fares to take people on holiday from a rural area not known for wealthy inhabitants is unusual at best. Ljubljana, only an hour's drive away has plenty of charter flights to the beach, and Klagenfurt is not London City. This is starting to look like a hybrid of Flynonstop and OLT.
Gruber Reisen appear not to realise scheduled and charter airline customers behave differently. The business plan and webpage needs work. Urgently.
Last edited by davidjohnson6; 9th Feb 2015 at 23:24.