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Aware that at least one "Essex" individual has referred to me as a "troll" for calling a spade a spade please allow me to put my two penny worth in and, should I be called names as a result, well "sticks and stones" and all that ...
I'd suggest that an airport owning it's own airline, operating routes to/from that same airport, is going to cause a conflict of interest.
I'm trying to think back to previous UK scenario's such as this, where airport and airlines are/were operated by one and the same, and I can only think of Brymon who operated both Plymouth and Newquay airports and the Helicopter operation that operated Penzance and Tresco heliports.
Whilst those aerodromes were under the operation of those operators no other operator came in to go "head to head" with them on any route operation because it was believed that they could never compete, that the home owned operator would receive the best prices, priority handling/ATC etc, whether true or not every third party operator is going to question that.
One other example being Lands End airport, operated by IOS Skybus, the helicopters from Penzance attempted to transfer their operations to Lands End and were told, pretty much, to "bugger off".
I'd suggest that SEN being in bed with it's own home based (owned) operator is going to make any possible competitor think twice about taking them on in/out of SEN and opting for another LON airport of operation instead.
I'd suggest that an airport owning it's own airline, operating routes to/from that same airport, is going to cause a conflict of interest.
I'm trying to think back to previous UK scenario's such as this, where airport and airlines are/were operated by one and the same, and I can only think of Brymon who operated both Plymouth and Newquay airports and the Helicopter operation that operated Penzance and Tresco heliports.
Whilst those aerodromes were under the operation of those operators no other operator came in to go "head to head" with them on any route operation because it was believed that they could never compete, that the home owned operator would receive the best prices, priority handling/ATC etc, whether true or not every third party operator is going to question that.
One other example being Lands End airport, operated by IOS Skybus, the helicopters from Penzance attempted to transfer their operations to Lands End and were told, pretty much, to "bugger off".
I'd suggest that SEN being in bed with it's own home based (owned) operator is going to make any possible competitor think twice about taking them on in/out of SEN and opting for another LON airport of operation instead.
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GCI - owned by the states as is their main airline Aurigny. That has not stopped other airlines such as Flybe, Blue Islands, Air Southwest, Air Berlin & Lufthansa over the years
Phileas
That is certainly a valid point to raise and I'm not really sure how much it would affect negatively the thinking of other airlines in their choice of London arrival point.
You could equally say I suppose that easyJet's 10 year deal with SEN might put off other operators of A319/320 sized equipment as they may not get such attractive incentives. The same could be applied to STN in respect of Ryanair, Wizzair at LTN or easyJet at LGW so market dominance in one form or another isn't anything new. I'm not sure that mutual ownership of airline and airport is the important thing, but rather the cosiness of any relationship between an airport and its major client airline.
On the plus side there could be sufficient synergy in the case of SEN and Flybe/Stobart Air to result in some otherwise marginal routes to be opened up profitably.
If a European carrier looked at SEN as a suitable destination from one of their hubs I doubt the current easyJet or Flybe/Stobart Air situation would deter them if all the other factors were considered favourable.
That is certainly a valid point to raise and I'm not really sure how much it would affect negatively the thinking of other airlines in their choice of London arrival point.
You could equally say I suppose that easyJet's 10 year deal with SEN might put off other operators of A319/320 sized equipment as they may not get such attractive incentives. The same could be applied to STN in respect of Ryanair, Wizzair at LTN or easyJet at LGW so market dominance in one form or another isn't anything new. I'm not sure that mutual ownership of airline and airport is the important thing, but rather the cosiness of any relationship between an airport and its major client airline.
On the plus side there could be sufficient synergy in the case of SEN and Flybe/Stobart Air to result in some otherwise marginal routes to be opened up profitably.
If a European carrier looked at SEN as a suitable destination from one of their hubs I doubt the current easyJet or Flybe/Stobart Air situation would deter them if all the other factors were considered favourable.
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I called PF a troll quite justifiably because he seems to post in every topic I've ever looked at with his 'superior knowledge' to create a reaction. Plus some homophobic abuse thrown in for good measure.
Anyway, I would ordinarily say in an large market such as London owning airport and airline is a bad idea. But, failure to adequately address airport capacity in the London area in conjunction with a lack of suitable operators has created a situation in which there is no other realistic option.
Let's look at Munster, the one route that is amost certain to appear, though the conditions apply to other destinations.
Can Munster to London be viable? Yes
Can it be viable in a 150+ seat aircraft? Probably not
Can a -100 seater enter LGW/LHR? Not really and no
Can the market bear the high costs associated with LCY? Not really
Are there any operators, using their own metal, with the right equipment and enough critical mass to enter the London market? Yes, Flybe, but they are in no state to start new adventures to Europe from LTN/SEN/STN
Are there small, niche operators that could operate such routes? A few, but mostly not suited to the market and would lack brand awareness
So, that leaves an opportunity that Stobart have taken. Who realistically, in the near future, would take such opportunities. I would say no one.
Comparisons with the West Country are irrelevant.
Anyway, I would ordinarily say in an large market such as London owning airport and airline is a bad idea. But, failure to adequately address airport capacity in the London area in conjunction with a lack of suitable operators has created a situation in which there is no other realistic option.
Let's look at Munster, the one route that is amost certain to appear, though the conditions apply to other destinations.
Can Munster to London be viable? Yes
Can it be viable in a 150+ seat aircraft? Probably not
Can a -100 seater enter LGW/LHR? Not really and no
Can the market bear the high costs associated with LCY? Not really
Are there any operators, using their own metal, with the right equipment and enough critical mass to enter the London market? Yes, Flybe, but they are in no state to start new adventures to Europe from LTN/SEN/STN
Are there small, niche operators that could operate such routes? A few, but mostly not suited to the market and would lack brand awareness
So, that leaves an opportunity that Stobart have taken. Who realistically, in the near future, would take such opportunities. I would say no one.
Comparisons with the West Country are irrelevant.
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I'm trying to think back to previous UK scenario's such as this
GCI - owned by the states as is their main airline Aurigny.
I called PF a troll with his 'superior knowledge'
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I see that - from next week - the Easyjet flights to Berlin switch to a daytime / early evening operation rather than the current later evening schedule. That should be good news for unsuspecting German pax who may have been unaware of the rail situation post-2305hrs. (Although this flight does seem to frequently arrive well-ahead of its 2255hrs. scheduled time).
Also Amsterdam goes up to 3x daily (except Tue / Sat when it is twice) until early / mid-June.
And - if LTNman happens to be looking in - I was intrigued to see your post of 31/12/2013 in which you predict that the Southend-Dublin route will be pulled by the end of this year. Do you still stand by that I wonder?
Also Amsterdam goes up to 3x daily (except Tue / Sat when it is twice) until early / mid-June.
And - if LTNman happens to be looking in - I was intrigued to see your post of 31/12/2013 in which you predict that the Southend-Dublin route will be pulled by the end of this year. Do you still stand by that I wonder?
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Expressflight,
Whilst I can appreciate your defence of SEN I don't believe you can realistically compare SEN to such a metropolis as LGW!
With EZY being in bed at SEN it is going to deter others, it's not going to deter such operators as Ryanair because they don't operate appropriately sized equipment and it's not going to deter, necessarily, your (quote) A319/320 sized equipment operators unless they are operating a similar business model on similar routes as EZY, bucket & spade holiday operators might indeed relish SEN indeed as a breath of fresh air.
But EZY is somewhat different because they are not owned by SEN Airport owners, a comparison has been made to GCI and Aurigny but just because both are state owned doesn't suggest unfair competition quite the same as SEN & Stobart Air suggests.
Are SEN likely to get another medium jet loco to move in with EZY already in bed? ... No! ... Are SEN likely to get a large turbo-prop operator move in with Stobart/SEN Air already well and truly in bed? ... Well what do you think?
I'm not suggesting that other operators won't pop in with their once or twice daily operations from elsewhere but as for any significant basing there ... I don't think so!
I can just imagine SEN's accounts dept. "Who are we going to invoice for these landing/navigation charges, these handling and parking charges etc. etc. etc?" ... "Ah yes, we're invoicing Stobart Air".
Kind of defeats the object don't you think just shuffling the money between one Stobart bank account and another Stobart bank account?
Whilst I can appreciate your defence of SEN I don't believe you can realistically compare SEN to such a metropolis as LGW!
With EZY being in bed at SEN it is going to deter others, it's not going to deter such operators as Ryanair because they don't operate appropriately sized equipment and it's not going to deter, necessarily, your (quote) A319/320 sized equipment operators unless they are operating a similar business model on similar routes as EZY, bucket & spade holiday operators might indeed relish SEN indeed as a breath of fresh air.
But EZY is somewhat different because they are not owned by SEN Airport owners, a comparison has been made to GCI and Aurigny but just because both are state owned doesn't suggest unfair competition quite the same as SEN & Stobart Air suggests.
Are SEN likely to get another medium jet loco to move in with EZY already in bed? ... No! ... Are SEN likely to get a large turbo-prop operator move in with Stobart/SEN Air already well and truly in bed? ... Well what do you think?
I'm not suggesting that other operators won't pop in with their once or twice daily operations from elsewhere but as for any significant basing there ... I don't think so!
I can just imagine SEN's accounts dept. "Who are we going to invoice for these landing/navigation charges, these handling and parking charges etc. etc. etc?" ... "Ah yes, we're invoicing Stobart Air".
Kind of defeats the object don't you think just shuffling the money between one Stobart bank account and another Stobart bank account?
Phileas
But it doesn't mean "just shuffling the money between one Stobart bank account and another Stobart bank account" does it? Revenue generated from a third party - the airline's passengers - invalidates that view in my opinion.
If the revenue generated by ticket sales from one Stobart (45% owned) company includes a profit element after the other Stobart company (and everyone else) has been paid, that is good for the whole Group is it not?
If company A operates profitably and contributes also to company B's revenues by its activities that is the very nature of business, whether commonly 'owned' or not. I thought your point was that such common ownership might deter other companies from using SEN, not that it is a bad business idea in its own right.
In my opinion I think the point raised by Cloud1 in respect of GCI and Aurigny is entirely valid as a comparison.
Finally, if the Flybe/Stobart Air venture proved very successful commercially and resulted in an extensive network of routes (not all SEN-based either perhaps) that would reduce the need to seek other based operators considerably would it not?
Just my opinions on the subject and I'm sure we should be able to agree to differ shouldn't we?
But it doesn't mean "just shuffling the money between one Stobart bank account and another Stobart bank account" does it? Revenue generated from a third party - the airline's passengers - invalidates that view in my opinion.
If the revenue generated by ticket sales from one Stobart (45% owned) company includes a profit element after the other Stobart company (and everyone else) has been paid, that is good for the whole Group is it not?
If company A operates profitably and contributes also to company B's revenues by its activities that is the very nature of business, whether commonly 'owned' or not. I thought your point was that such common ownership might deter other companies from using SEN, not that it is a bad business idea in its own right.
In my opinion I think the point raised by Cloud1 in respect of GCI and Aurigny is entirely valid as a comparison.
Finally, if the Flybe/Stobart Air venture proved very successful commercially and resulted in an extensive network of routes (not all SEN-based either perhaps) that would reduce the need to seek other based operators considerably would it not?
Just my opinions on the subject and I'm sure we should be able to agree to differ shouldn't we?
It's worth noting that GCI + Aurigny's common owner is essentially the Govt of Guernsey, in a location which depends heavily on inbound tourism and the strong need for highly accessible air transport to the UK, given that Guernsey's economy is highly integrated with that of the UK. Therefore the airport's owner is not motivated to abuse its market position - the airport owner derives far greater benefit from a vibrant Guernsey economy with plentiful local business activity (ie jobs translating into votes).
Southend is a primarily outbound market and Stobart gains little from tourists visiting Essex or general local business activity. I have no reason to think Stobart would abuse their position but the *perception* that Stobart might do something naughty will take much longer to dispel.
Southend is a primarily outbound market and Stobart gains little from tourists visiting Essex or general local business activity. I have no reason to think Stobart would abuse their position but the *perception* that Stobart might do something naughty will take much longer to dispel.
Last edited by davidjohnson6; 27th Mar 2014 at 13:56. Reason: Keep some1 happy about minor point in post
dj6
That's a fair point regarding GCI and Aurigny.
In respect of SEN being "a primarily outbound market" that is also true at present, but I think the balance between inbound and outbound will be somewhat different as far as the six new routes are concerned.
That's a fair point regarding GCI and Aurigny.
In respect of SEN being "a primarily outbound market" that is also true at present, but I think the balance between inbound and outbound will be somewhat different as far as the six new routes are concerned.
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It's worth noting that GCI + Aurigny's common owner is essentially the Govt of Guernsey, in a location which depends heavily on inbound tourism and the strong need for highly accessible air transport to the rest of the UK.
Has Guernsey joined the UK overnight whilst I've been concentrating on the news of Ukraine and the Malaysian airliner?
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And - if LTNman happens to be looking in - I was intrigued to see your post of 31/12/2013 in which you predict that the Southend-Dublin route will be pulled by the end of this year. Do you still stand by that I wonder?
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Pax
I went out on the early flight last Friday to Barcelona. It was rammed! Terminal very busy too with the other flights. Sunday night return was also rammed. In the car 10 mins after getting off £15 for 3 days parking! Gonna use SND again. Worked for me even tho I felt like an extra in TOWIE!
The apron looked pretty full to me. Where are they gonna put all these additional aircraft?
The apron looked pretty full to me. Where are they gonna put all these additional aircraft?
Seno Airport (SND) Laos
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no slots....Where are they gonna put all these additional aircraft?
really Stobart Air will have to bring better idea about avoid the congestion. if is cause the problem in future addition aircrafts and passengers......
really Stobart Air will have to bring better idea about avoid the congestion. if is cause the problem in future addition aircrafts and passengers......
I trust that SEN and Stobart Air management were aware of Flybe’s newly acquired LCY slots when the franchising deal was concluded. Granted that acquisition of slots may not in itself guarantee the routes will be flown,the size of the allocation seems a strong pointer to Flybe’s intentions at LCY, which of course is SEN's nearest competitor airport.
There would seem to be a potential conflict of interest in that at some future time SEN and Stobart Air could want to serve some of those same destinations from SEN effectively in competition. How would this work out ? Would Flybe exercise some constraint on Stobart Air ? Or would Stobart Air simply consider them off limits to avoid conflict and concentrate on thinner more speculative routes in which Flybe has no real interest ?
Perhaps one has to wait and see whether Flybe has any intention of using its own aircraft at SEN. Even this year's SEN-NQY might not happen again if the LCY slot allocations are any guide.+
There would seem to be a potential conflict of interest in that at some future time SEN and Stobart Air could want to serve some of those same destinations from SEN effectively in competition. How would this work out ? Would Flybe exercise some constraint on Stobart Air ? Or would Stobart Air simply consider them off limits to avoid conflict and concentrate on thinner more speculative routes in which Flybe has no real interest ?
Perhaps one has to wait and see whether Flybe has any intention of using its own aircraft at SEN. Even this year's SEN-NQY might not happen again if the LCY slot allocations are any guide.+
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SND Seno Airport (SND) Laos
ericlday
Sorry old boy but I guess you must be too young as in the 50-70s the southend NDB ident was SND and to most people who worked there at the time it was referred to as that, seems like yesterday back in those days of all those RR Merlin’s, B Hercules, PW2000, PW2800 amongst so many others'''' If members of the so called SAEN had lived there then they would have had something to moan about, but at the time most people in town were please to have a thriving Airport in the area giving employment to many in the town, Of course the other incentive at that time was Southend Corporation used to plough some of the profits back into the rate fund and thereby reducing the amount house holders had to pay (great idea at the time) Indecently always remember back in the early 60s a guy brought a bungalow on rochford road immediately opposite the end of 24 just across the Railway and immediately started to complain about A/C noise, It makes you feel you have lost the will to live'''''''' My parents who lived just off manners way all through the war from 1936 on always used to say during those dark and frightening days it was always good to hear the sound of RR merlin's taking off to defend our way of life''''''
Kind Rgds
PCC
Sorry old boy but I guess you must be too young as in the 50-70s the southend NDB ident was SND and to most people who worked there at the time it was referred to as that, seems like yesterday back in those days of all those RR Merlin’s, B Hercules, PW2000, PW2800 amongst so many others'''' If members of the so called SAEN had lived there then they would have had something to moan about, but at the time most people in town were please to have a thriving Airport in the area giving employment to many in the town, Of course the other incentive at that time was Southend Corporation used to plough some of the profits back into the rate fund and thereby reducing the amount house holders had to pay (great idea at the time) Indecently always remember back in the early 60s a guy brought a bungalow on rochford road immediately opposite the end of 24 just across the Railway and immediately started to complain about A/C noise, It makes you feel you have lost the will to live'''''''' My parents who lived just off manners way all through the war from 1936 on always used to say during those dark and frightening days it was always good to hear the sound of RR merlin's taking off to defend our way of life''''''
Kind Rgds
PCC