MANCHESTER - 9
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The existing network carrier inherited a cost base that made anything outside of Heathrow a loser. Compare BA's costs with, for example, let me think, Qatar. Now we all love their shiny aircraft, product and network but they don't exactly treat their people well. For BA to compete it had to smash it's own staff's terms and conditions and outsourse a lot of loyal and hard working people. That's a lot of destruction of jobs and lives to get to where they are now, and that's still not making a particularly decent margin.
Lufthansa is stepping away for German Wings, Air France retreated to Paris, Iberia pulled back to Madrid and KLM re-trenched at AMS. If we want to fly in Europe at loco prices we can't expect a business with network carrier costs to work at MAN as they have no feed, whereas the other guy, AF/KLM/LX/TP/LH is feeding their hub at the other end.
We rejoice at low fares, but we ignore the price on (our own) people's salaries and careers whilst lauding certain sandy companies who treat their staff in a way 90% of us would, quite rightly, not tolerate. What flybe is doing is interesting but remains tinkering at the edges of what's possible, although how to bring it to fruition is beyond me in the current marketplace.
Lufthansa is stepping away for German Wings, Air France retreated to Paris, Iberia pulled back to Madrid and KLM re-trenched at AMS. If we want to fly in Europe at loco prices we can't expect a business with network carrier costs to work at MAN as they have no feed, whereas the other guy, AF/KLM/LX/TP/LH is feeding their hub at the other end.
We rejoice at low fares, but we ignore the price on (our own) people's salaries and careers whilst lauding certain sandy companies who treat their staff in a way 90% of us would, quite rightly, not tolerate. What flybe is doing is interesting but remains tinkering at the edges of what's possible, although how to bring it to fruition is beyond me in the current marketplace.
Lufthansa is stepping away for German Wings, Air France retreated to Paris, Iberia pulled back to Madrid and KLM re-trenched at AMS. If we want to fly in Europe at loco prices we can't expect a business with network carrier costs to work at MAN as they have no feed, whereas the other guy, AF/KLM/LX/TP/LH is feeding their hub at the other end
The UK is plenty big enough to operate the "German model" - but it is it's politics and the unfair amount of government money (the olympics, national footie stadium, millennium dome, cross rail etc etc) that get poured into the southeast that precludes proper growth and a balanced economy in the aviation sector, and wider economy here in UK.
And, Manchester airport fans (and those of BHX, NCL, GLA) it will in all probability remain so. (from some who doesn't live in London - thank the Lord!).
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Norwegian at Manchester
Well the Germans may yet do Manchester a favour! the delay in opening Berlin's new airport means that Norwegian are having to re think the planned basing of two aircraft at Berlin latter this year and it's looking increasingly likely that they could now go to Manchester instead, bringing forward the planned second base by at least 6 months from 2015 to late 2014.
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do Manchester a favour!
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Given the strong rumours that came to nothing last year and the fact Norwegian have actually shrunk at MAN (and in the North west with the ending of CPH-LPL), I now have a hard time believing a base will be announced this year.
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Interesting!! a pal of mine at Jet2 in Manchester mentioned this a week or so back, I thought it unlikely given the competition at MAN but then again I thought their LGW base was a leap of faith too far, but traveling through Gatter's the other day I was surprised how many of their aircraft were in and out.
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Manchester runways extended
I hope my headline got your attention!
No, we're not trying to steal BHX's thunder, MAN's runways are long enough already. But what seems to have gone un-noticed on this forum is the extension to MAN's dual-runway operating hours effective 1st May.
MAN will operate dual-runway between 0630-1030 & 1300-2000 Local Time M-F, with an afternoon dual-runway period 1300-1600 on Sat. This is a significant increase on the present arrangement and is primarily targeted at reducing air holding of the returning wave of based short haul aircraft, though it will have other benefits generally to On Time Performance. Extended dual-runway hours were trialled last Autumn, with a proven reduction in air holding, especially at DAYNE. Good news for MAN's airline customers, good news for MAN's passengers, and good news for the environment.
No, we're not trying to steal BHX's thunder, MAN's runways are long enough already. But what seems to have gone un-noticed on this forum is the extension to MAN's dual-runway operating hours effective 1st May.MAN will operate dual-runway between 0630-1030 & 1300-2000 Local Time M-F, with an afternoon dual-runway period 1300-1600 on Sat. This is a significant increase on the present arrangement and is primarily targeted at reducing air holding of the returning wave of based short haul aircraft, though it will have other benefits generally to On Time Performance. Extended dual-runway hours were trialled last Autumn, with a proven reduction in air holding, especially at DAYNE. Good news for MAN's airline customers, good news for MAN's passengers, and good news for the environment.
Last edited by roverman; 8th Apr 2014 at 18:16. Reason: typo
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LHR-LAX in another place I see you have reported that FlyNas may be looking at transiting Manchester to JFK/ORD effective 2015.
Thats a big step for a regional flexible fares operator isn't it.
Do they even have traffic rights to the US and can they get fifth freedom ?
Certainly seem to be taking on Saudia in every possible market and wonder if the MAN-JED service can withstand upwards of double figure weekly frequency !
Thats a big step for a regional flexible fares operator isn't it.
Do they even have traffic rights to the US and can they get fifth freedom ?
Certainly seem to be taking on Saudia in every possible market and wonder if the MAN-JED service can withstand upwards of double figure weekly frequency !
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Extended dual-runway hours were trialled last Autumn, with a proven reduction in air holding, especially at DAYNE. Good news for MAN's airline customers, good news for MAN's passengers, and good news for the environment
Always surprised me that EK did not try for DXB-MAN-JFK, round robin route.
Join Date: Dec 2003
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My goodness I thought I was stood in solitude behind the MAN barricade !
Try this, suppose Tesco, Asda, etc were running the UK air industry would we really have a preposterous situation where you jump in the car travel 20 miles to Manchester, but then find the fare is 25% dearer to New York by picking up "another" flight which will operate in completely the wrong direction .....than the one that common sense suggests you should take, which actually flies you direct ?
What a bloody ludicrous farcical state of affairs !
Is there nobody in Government with the wit of man to unpick this ?
Skip mentioned the "Emperors new clothes " in an analogy with another comment, my goodness if this isn't "ENC syndrome" I don't know what is !
And then as was mentioned we also have the internet resellers who pass off DIRECT as an hours flying time East in order to travel 8 hours ....wait for it West !
Have you seriously ever heard anything like it in your life ?
Does any other business or industry work in such a kackhanded way ?
Our leaders in the transport industry are presiding over an utter unmitigated shambles of a system which goes completely unchallenged and serves only the same old vested interests !
Try this, suppose Tesco, Asda, etc were running the UK air industry would we really have a preposterous situation where you jump in the car travel 20 miles to Manchester, but then find the fare is 25% dearer to New York by picking up "another" flight which will operate in completely the wrong direction .....than the one that common sense suggests you should take, which actually flies you direct ?
What a bloody ludicrous farcical state of affairs !
Is there nobody in Government with the wit of man to unpick this ?
Skip mentioned the "Emperors new clothes " in an analogy with another comment, my goodness if this isn't "ENC syndrome" I don't know what is !
And then as was mentioned we also have the internet resellers who pass off DIRECT as an hours flying time East in order to travel 8 hours ....wait for it West !
Have you seriously ever heard anything like it in your life ?
Does any other business or industry work in such a kackhanded way ?
Our leaders in the transport industry are presiding over an utter unmitigated shambles of a system which goes completely unchallenged and serves only the same old vested interests !
Last edited by Bagso; 8th Apr 2014 at 22:11.
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Routes to/from MAN
What is actually wanted at MAN? Is it a BA or VS long haul network? Is it a BA or VS short haul network? Is it non-UK carriers feeding their hubs? Is it some sort of government intervention?
We hear a lot about the industry being LHR-centric, and indeed it is, in common with most of Europe where the industry is national hub-centric.
The first two won't happen, BA can no longer make money on this, so nor would VS. It's probably because of the no-frills operators, but they only do point-to-point. The third is therefore the best option, following the example of EK, EY, TK and QR.
Any carrier wanting to do nonstop direct longhaul ex-MAN has to go up against these 4, who have the advantage of incumbancy.
As mentioned above, MAN does rather well with over 20 million pax/year and no major airline hub. Maybe it could do better, would love to see it doing better.
Not quite a delay in opening the airport. The airport is up and running and has been for many years, it is SXF. What is allegedly happening is expansion at SXF to take the TXL traffic because there is not much room to expand at TXL. In reality, SXF is getting a new and much bigger terminal, a second rwy, and an unnecessary new name.
That's deregulation for you. The government is no friend of the aviation industry, LHR expansion and APD are two good examples of several.
But it has allowed something for MAN that it won't at LHR, that is to double the number of parallel rwys.
Yes, it happens all the time. Its the way it works with hub and spoke operations.
With the exception of MLE and CMB, almost every destination from UK airports is a "dog-leg"/long way round when travelled via AUH, DOH, DXB or IST, yet many pax do travel this way without batting an eyelid.
If you think this is wrong, check on great circle mapper!
We hear a lot about the industry being LHR-centric, and indeed it is, in common with most of Europe where the industry is national hub-centric.
The first two won't happen, BA can no longer make money on this, so nor would VS. It's probably because of the no-frills operators, but they only do point-to-point. The third is therefore the best option, following the example of EK, EY, TK and QR.
Any carrier wanting to do nonstop direct longhaul ex-MAN has to go up against these 4, who have the advantage of incumbancy.
As mentioned above, MAN does rather well with over 20 million pax/year and no major airline hub. Maybe it could do better, would love to see it doing better.
Well the Germans may yet do Manchester a favour! the delay in opening Berlin's new airport means that Norwegian are having to re think the planned basing of two aircraft at Berlin latter this year and it's looking increasingly likely that they could now go to Manchester instead, bringing forward the planned second base by at least 6 months from 2015 to late 2014.
Is there nobody in Government with the wit of man to unpick this ?
But it has allowed something for MAN that it won't at LHR, that is to double the number of parallel rwys.
And then as was mentioned we also have the internet resellers who pass off DIRECT as an hours flying time East in order to travel 8 hours ....wait for it West !
Have you ever seriously ever heard anything like it in your life ?
Does any other business work like this ?
Have you ever seriously ever heard anything like it in your life ?
Does any other business work like this ?
With the exception of MLE and CMB, almost every destination from UK airports is a "dog-leg"/long way round when travelled via AUH, DOH, DXB or IST, yet many pax do travel this way without batting an eyelid.
If you think this is wrong, check on great circle mapper!
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Is there nobody in Government with the wit of man to unpick this ?
Indeed Scottish holidaymakers used to pay a major mark up over MAN based flights to the costas as the limited capacity in comparison keeps the price nice and high, It was claimed at the time it was because more fuel was needed to fly that little bit further! Yeah....
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In the 1970s and 1980s all inclusive holidays from MAN to the Med could be as much as 25% more than from Luton or Gatwick depending on the season and timing.
Also I had an aunt who regularly flew Wardair to Canada. She quickly learned that it was cheaper to fly from Gatwick than from MAN (and face it, Wardair did very well ex MAN) but was most annoyed to find one time when she had had to visit her daughter in Croydon before heading to Toronto, that the cheaper flight from Gatwick stopped at MAN on the way and, when she tried to change her return booking to get off at MAN they wanted to charge her the difference between the two fares plus a handling charge.
Airline fares are mad. I' m on the last leg of a round the world trip. The booking from LHR back to Gatwick was originally for eleven sectors Qantas added two more by cancelling the Alice Springs to Cairns and rerouting us, business class via Sydney and Brisbane. The original routing was Heathrow, Hong Kong, Singapore, Melbourne, Alice Springs, Cairns, Sydney, Auckland, Rarotonga, back to Auckland, Los Angeles and, after a road trip across the US, Orlando to Gatwick. The cost, departing in early February in economy was £2,200 inc all taxes, full travel/medical insurance at double rates as I'm over 65 and an Australian visa. If I had added the Shannon Heathrow one way sector which cost me £60 to buy online it would have added another £120 as I'm terminating the trip in London.
A cousin flew out to Auckland and back over Singapore, no stops permitted. Cost to him, also in economy, £895. Where is the logic?
Also I had an aunt who regularly flew Wardair to Canada. She quickly learned that it was cheaper to fly from Gatwick than from MAN (and face it, Wardair did very well ex MAN) but was most annoyed to find one time when she had had to visit her daughter in Croydon before heading to Toronto, that the cheaper flight from Gatwick stopped at MAN on the way and, when she tried to change her return booking to get off at MAN they wanted to charge her the difference between the two fares plus a handling charge.
Airline fares are mad. I' m on the last leg of a round the world trip. The booking from LHR back to Gatwick was originally for eleven sectors Qantas added two more by cancelling the Alice Springs to Cairns and rerouting us, business class via Sydney and Brisbane. The original routing was Heathrow, Hong Kong, Singapore, Melbourne, Alice Springs, Cairns, Sydney, Auckland, Rarotonga, back to Auckland, Los Angeles and, after a road trip across the US, Orlando to Gatwick. The cost, departing in early February in economy was £2,200 inc all taxes, full travel/medical insurance at double rates as I'm over 65 and an Australian visa. If I had added the Shannon Heathrow one way sector which cost me £60 to buy online it would have added another £120 as I'm terminating the trip in London.
A cousin flew out to Auckland and back over Singapore, no stops permitted. Cost to him, also in economy, £895. Where is the logic?
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I was thinking more of other industries "FDF" not other airlines !
Asda, Tesco, Aldi etc go to the market, they analyse where demand is and meet that by placing a method of delivery convenient to what the customer wants !
OK I fully appreciate that whilst feasible you cannot run services from say New York - Norwich or Inverness - Dubai BUT if you are having a review /discussion about strategy then looking at where passengers reside and where they wish to fly to/from would not be unreasonable.
Quoting MAGs own figures 50% of the population is within 2 hours of MAN, OK various factors skew that, there are of course other airports offering alternatives, LBA, LIV, EMA etc and the population that is within MANs catchment area is completely different in terms of spend, affluence etc to London so it is far from a true analogy BUT it is still massive market and MAN is at its core !
I agree Governments have little influence of dictating where passengers fly BUT I still maintain that it should have been part of the Davies remit to look more at the dynamics of the market especially with regard pricing and how that market can be distorted !
In any other industry "direct point of sale" results in a lower price, within the airline industry it doesn't !
Asda, Tesco, Aldi etc go to the market, they analyse where demand is and meet that by placing a method of delivery convenient to what the customer wants !
OK I fully appreciate that whilst feasible you cannot run services from say New York - Norwich or Inverness - Dubai BUT if you are having a review /discussion about strategy then looking at where passengers reside and where they wish to fly to/from would not be unreasonable.
Quoting MAGs own figures 50% of the population is within 2 hours of MAN, OK various factors skew that, there are of course other airports offering alternatives, LBA, LIV, EMA etc and the population that is within MANs catchment area is completely different in terms of spend, affluence etc to London so it is far from a true analogy BUT it is still massive market and MAN is at its core !
I agree Governments have little influence of dictating where passengers fly BUT I still maintain that it should have been part of the Davies remit to look more at the dynamics of the market especially with regard pricing and how that market can be distorted !
In any other industry "direct point of sale" results in a lower price, within the airline industry it doesn't !
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A usually very reliable poster on things jet2 on another forum states Jet2 will add another aircraft to MAN in 2015, add routes to Valencia, Malta, Antalya, Madrid and kefalonia and lease an A330 for trunk routes at MAN. Frequencies will also be increased on routes, including Toulouse which is being cut from LBA.
3 very surprising additions there. Madrid and Valencia going directly head on with Ryanair, and using an A330 on trunk routes. Will be interesting to see how they pan out.
Madrid is underserved from MAN, so, if Jet2 get a morning flight in, they could do well. However, history seems to show Jet2 prefer to run beach flights in the morning, then cities in the afternoon, so would not be surprised if the flights mirrored Ryanairs, just in opposite directions due to where the aircraft are based. VLC-MAN not exactly the biggest city pair so that one could be tough. Malta already quite well served, so could this be the final straw for Air Malta? Antalya and Kefalonia should do well.
3 very surprising additions there. Madrid and Valencia going directly head on with Ryanair, and using an A330 on trunk routes. Will be interesting to see how they pan out.
Madrid is underserved from MAN, so, if Jet2 get a morning flight in, they could do well. However, history seems to show Jet2 prefer to run beach flights in the morning, then cities in the afternoon, so would not be surprised if the flights mirrored Ryanairs, just in opposite directions due to where the aircraft are based. VLC-MAN not exactly the biggest city pair so that one could be tough. Malta already quite well served, so could this be the final straw for Air Malta? Antalya and Kefalonia should do well.
Last edited by LAX_LHR; 9th Apr 2014 at 07:58.
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altho' 50% of the population may live within 2 hours of MAN how many of those people even know there is an airport there, never mind the range of flights?
I'll bet more people travel from Leeds to LHR than MAN
partly it is due to poor trans pennine links but also the total lack of advertising as to what is available
also I'd expect that flights from Manchester and Birmingham to (say) the USA would be cheaper - but when I look the savings seem to be minimal over LHR
I'll bet more people travel from Leeds to LHR than MAN
partly it is due to poor trans pennine links but also the total lack of advertising as to what is available
also I'd expect that flights from Manchester and Birmingham to (say) the USA would be cheaper - but when I look the savings seem to be minimal over LHR
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also I'd expect that flights from Manchester and Birmingham to (say) the USA would be cheaper - but when I look the savings seem to be minimal over LHR
The basket of fares from Manchester to the US is and always has been higher than those from London.
In olden days scheduled price were based on ex London plus miles basis to everywhere.
Today the matrix differs and yet the basket remains.
As constantly pointed out there is way to much capacity in the back of the bus out of London and this is dumped at a level simply unmatchable even with an added on shuttle element !
The market dynamic of Hub and Spoke necessitate competitive fares over the hub
28 daily flights between just one city pair specifically corrupts the whole market place.
No your premise is very wrong.
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altho' 50% of the population may live within 2 hours of MAN how many of those people even know there is an airport there, never mind the range of flights?
I'll bet more people travel from Leeds to LHR than MAN
I'll bet more people travel from Leeds to LHR than MAN
Doubt more travel from Leeds to LHR than Manchester, especially the annual holiday trade - All the popular Sun and Sand routes Heathrow isn't in the same league here !
When it comes to Summer sun you'd be surprised how far people travel to Manchester for their holiday flight.
Southern Scotland and Bristol not unheard of.
I know some one in Brentwood ! thats traveled to Manchester to fly to Vegas not typical through !
Leakage inevitable on the longer haul as many irregular and VFR travellers simply visit the internet resellers and pick those cheap deals, however certain ethic groups actually still value the services of those ol' fashioned things called what were they?
Are yes the travel agent and let me tell you the likes of Saudia, PIA and Emirates certainly still value those customers . Plenty of them go via Manchester !
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But what seems to have gone un-noticed on this forum is the extension to MAN's dual-runway operating hours effective 1st May.
Long overdue since the movement profile at MAN changed. It will reduce that pesky DAYNE holding around lunchtime as you say and also offer additional slots should anyone need them.
I presume the Sunday hours remain as now and the Saturday morning dual runway period remains?