SOUTHEND - 3 The new beginning
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Originally Posted by Expressflight
There's obviously plenty of capacity still off- peak so that's where any growth in flight numbers is likely to be seen next year I imagine.
There is bound to be capacity during off peak times...How can that capacity be used to increase growth in flight numbers?.
Last edited by Ernest Lanc's; 4th Oct 2012 at 14:31.
Capacity at any time can be used to increase growth in flight numbers.
Here are just two examples:
There is capacity for European SEN arrivals from 0730 onwards on weekdays with departures 30 minutes later.
Also for middle of the day w-pattern arrivals/departures which would be perfectly suitable for any number of once daily services, such as the OLT DRS route.
If the only routes that airlines operated at LON airports were during the morning and evening peak periods there simply wouldn't be a European airline industry.
Here are just two examples:
There is capacity for European SEN arrivals from 0730 onwards on weekdays with departures 30 minutes later.
Also for middle of the day w-pattern arrivals/departures which would be perfectly suitable for any number of once daily services, such as the OLT DRS route.
If the only routes that airlines operated at LON airports were during the morning and evening peak periods there simply wouldn't be a European airline industry.
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It's disappointing to hear about low numbers on the AMS route.
It seems that they have no problem filling seats at Southend but only if they keep prices artificially low. The thinking is that these passengers would have booked a higher price ticket at another London airport so easyjet were being hit twice by not getting the higher fare and by subsidising the ticket price from Southend as part of the route launch.
With similar prices Southend appears to have lost some of its appeal despite the benefits of a small terminal. Not sure how this will play out in the long term and also I am only going by what I have been told.
Last edited by LTNman; 4th Oct 2012 at 19:42.
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LTNman
With similar prices Southend appears to have lost some of its appeal despite the benefits of a small terminal. Not sure how this will play out in the long term and also I am only going by what I have been told.
Pax only dropped after FR left because, or so they say - because of the ADF.
I am willing to pay that bit more for convenience, and so IMO: are others.
SEN has it's appeal due to it's ease of use.
Heard from another source that the reason for the big drop in passengers
Well all routes don't take off for various reasons, as far as SEN is concerned..If other routes are doing well. AMS does not matter that much.
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Ernest Lanc's
I know where you are coming from as I pay a premium to fly IT from Luton when I can save a fortune flying from Gatwick. Locals will always pay a premium to fly from their local airport and maybe Londoners will for the convenience of using Southend but the passenger loads might now be telling a different story.
I have no idea how true this story is as I might have been fed duff information.
I am willing to pay that bit more for convenience, and so IMO: are others.
SEN has it's appeal due to it's ease of use.
SEN has it's appeal due to it's ease of use.
I have no idea how true this story is as I might have been fed duff information.
LTNman's story may well have some validity in that it might be understandable if easyJet were driving up SEN-AMS prices to see what the market would stand.
But then flight times from SEN to AMS are shorter than from the other London terminals, and landing fees at SEN are rock bottom (if we are to believe what we are continually told) so operating costs from SEN should be lower and this should support a lower fare structure.
Does easyJet really know to what extent those "artificially low fares" took customers away from their own parallel routes, and to what extent they won customers from their competitors ? And to what extent those supposedly low fares encouraged people to fly who otherwise would not have felt able to afford it ? Perhaps this is what they are trying to establish.
But then flight times from SEN to AMS are shorter than from the other London terminals, and landing fees at SEN are rock bottom (if we are to believe what we are continually told) so operating costs from SEN should be lower and this should support a lower fare structure.
Does easyJet really know to what extent those "artificially low fares" took customers away from their own parallel routes, and to what extent they won customers from their competitors ? And to what extent those supposedly low fares encouraged people to fly who otherwise would not have felt able to afford it ? Perhaps this is what they are trying to establish.
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My view is that EasyJet really are sqeezing everything they can out of Southend. Further closure of popular routes from Stansted like Barcelona in January 2013 and it seems now Alicante as well from June 2013 will not be because they are underperforming, there is certainly demand and huge potential for big profits for those routes from Stansted. The only explanation is that they are doing it to take the strain off Southend. I think also it's absolutely the case that Southend is only as successful as it is due to prices being considerably lower than other London airports in alot of cases, but I think it is articially low and it won't stay that way for ever. Also flying times are more attractive on the Southend routes with the ideal 10am departures to the Med as opposed to the choice of leaving at 6am or getting there at 10pm on Stansted flights. EasyJet are not stupid, they know everything that the typical customer desires and have effectively made sure that Southend flights are the perfect scenario whilst there are drawbacks with the others (like higher fares), but are perservered with due to the benefits of flying to a larger airport like Gatwick or Stansted (eg. better flight connections or quicker travelling time to London etc.) They will struggle to maintain this approach for ever.
In addition, BAA will sell Stansted not too far in the future and will in theory become much more competitive than it currently is, and shouldn't take too long to do that being seperatley owned from Heathrow. What if the new owners promissed lower landing fees or attracted EasyJet in some other way, which being more competitive, which is almost a certainty, could be quite easily achieved. It could really make Southend suffer. I bet if we never had this reccession then EasyJet would have never used Southend. In the longer term, when the economy recovers, Southend is always going to struggle with the feirce competition of the much larger, well connected (not BAA owned) Stansted.
In addition, BAA will sell Stansted not too far in the future and will in theory become much more competitive than it currently is, and shouldn't take too long to do that being seperatley owned from Heathrow. What if the new owners promissed lower landing fees or attracted EasyJet in some other way, which being more competitive, which is almost a certainty, could be quite easily achieved. It could really make Southend suffer. I bet if we never had this reccession then EasyJet would have never used Southend. In the longer term, when the economy recovers, Southend is always going to struggle with the feirce competition of the much larger, well connected (not BAA owned) Stansted.
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posted by LTN man. Locals will always pay a premium to fly from their local airport and maybe Londoners will for the convenience of using Southend
The first train of the day from London arrives at 1:47 in the morning but passengers will have to wait outside the terminal in the cold for over 2 hours as unfriendly Southend will not let them in even to keep warm.
The second departure leaves London at 04:59 but involves 3 changes and a half hour walk between stations and takes 1 hour 34 minutes.
The third departure from London arrives at Southend at 6:32 and takes 1 hour 5 minutes. This train is no good for the first Amsterdam departure if you have luggage and is leaving things fine if you don’t. If that train was ever cancelled passengers would miss their flight. A 1 hour 5 minute trip on the train that stops at every station will never feel convenient in my opinion.
That leaves the car, so where is the motorway that gets passengers from London to the airport? There isn’t one. OK a fast A road will be just as quick as a motorway at 5 in the morning but for the rest of the day this is not ideal particularly as Southend Airport feels like it is located in a residential area of the town.
In the other direction the M1 and M11 penetrates outer London getting the car driver to the North Circular Road which was London’s first orbital ring road. Southend drivers have to drive through the streets of London to reach this road.
Southend will always be convenient for the locals who will always have to drive whether to Southend or Stansted if Southend is nearer but is Southend such a great option if you live in London? I can think of a few other airports that I might want to use first.
Last edited by Pain in the R's; 5th Oct 2012 at 06:14.
How many passengers out of SEN are actually travelling from central London. I'm always surprised/amused when any discussion on access to London's airports always concentrate on this point - is it just because it is easy to measure?
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Maybe it is because Southend calls itself London Southend. If it didn't then the question would go away.
A better name would be North Sea Southend Airport. No one could then argue the point about its convenience to getting to the east coast.
A better name would be North Sea Southend Airport. No one could then argue the point about its convenience to getting to the east coast.
Last edited by Pain in the R's; 5th Oct 2012 at 06:31.
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I've been sat in traffic queues on the M11 more often than I care to remember. The A127 is usually quite a fast road, but I've been stuck in jams on that too. Not a lot of difference really. The early trains are certainly a drawback and need addressing, but at least the on Airport hotel is now opening.
The trains stopping at the airport station certainly seem very full at busy times, so I guess quite a lot of folks are heading to and from London - they can't all be going to Billericay.....
There's really no issue with Southend calling itself London Southend as it has done, unofficially, for many years. Southend has been east London's seaside extension for over a century and its distance from the capital is only marginally greater than some other London airports. It's certainly part of the London region in a way that Oxford or Manston, for example, can't claim to be. Try flying to Oslo with Ryanair and see where you end up.....
The trains stopping at the airport station certainly seem very full at busy times, so I guess quite a lot of folks are heading to and from London - they can't all be going to Billericay.....
There's really no issue with Southend calling itself London Southend as it has done, unofficially, for many years. Southend has been east London's seaside extension for over a century and its distance from the capital is only marginally greater than some other London airports. It's certainly part of the London region in a way that Oxford or Manston, for example, can't claim to be. Try flying to Oslo with Ryanair and see where you end up.....
PitR's
I congratulate you on making the early train situation sound like a nightmare but you've cleverly been selective in making it seem worse than it is. Perhaps I can be allowed to put the facts a little more accurately.
Nobody it their right mind will take the 0459 departure which, as you say, takes 93 minutes and involves several changes of train arriving SEN at 0631. Why would they not do this? Simply because the 0528 departure arrives SEN one minute later than that at 0632, takes 64 minutes and is a direct service! The 0555 departure takes 52 minutes and arrives SEN at 0647.
So in reality you could reasonably rely on arriving by 0647 even if one train was cancelled, which to my mind means catching a flight with an ETD not earlier than 0730, but ideally not before 0745.
Is this satisfactory? No, it patently isn't and Stobarts seem to be finding it extremely difficult to persuade Network Rail that they should open up the line even half an hour earlier to allow an 0600 train arrival at SEN. It must to a degree hurt the AMS, BFS & DUB figures which all have departures before that time.
As far as the roads are concerned, the M25 is 20 minutes drive (plus 200m walk from car park to check-in desk) if you're catching one of the first wave of departures and it's all dual carriageway except the last 1 km. You are correct in saying that you drive through residenial areas to get to SEN; exactly as to do (although even more so) when driving to LTN from the east. Driving times to London are, according to Google, 57 minutes to Docklands, 60 to Bishopsgate, 65 to Chancery Lane and 73 to Marble Arch. There is also a choice of two routes; via the A127 or the A13 should one be blocked by an accident. I don't quite see why anyone would specifically want to get onto the A406 North Circular as part of their journey when they would use the M25 until they reached the appropriate exit.
As you quite rightly say, it all depends on where you live/where your UK destination is as to which LON airport will suit you individually but I would suggest that many more than just "locals" find it the most convenient and quickest departure/arrival route.
Lastly, take a look at a map and you'll see SEN isn't on the North Sea and if IATA (rather than just the airport authority) decide it's a London metropolitan airport then that's good enough for me and probably most travellers.
I congratulate you on making the early train situation sound like a nightmare but you've cleverly been selective in making it seem worse than it is. Perhaps I can be allowed to put the facts a little more accurately.
Nobody it their right mind will take the 0459 departure which, as you say, takes 93 minutes and involves several changes of train arriving SEN at 0631. Why would they not do this? Simply because the 0528 departure arrives SEN one minute later than that at 0632, takes 64 minutes and is a direct service! The 0555 departure takes 52 minutes and arrives SEN at 0647.
So in reality you could reasonably rely on arriving by 0647 even if one train was cancelled, which to my mind means catching a flight with an ETD not earlier than 0730, but ideally not before 0745.
Is this satisfactory? No, it patently isn't and Stobarts seem to be finding it extremely difficult to persuade Network Rail that they should open up the line even half an hour earlier to allow an 0600 train arrival at SEN. It must to a degree hurt the AMS, BFS & DUB figures which all have departures before that time.
As far as the roads are concerned, the M25 is 20 minutes drive (plus 200m walk from car park to check-in desk) if you're catching one of the first wave of departures and it's all dual carriageway except the last 1 km. You are correct in saying that you drive through residenial areas to get to SEN; exactly as to do (although even more so) when driving to LTN from the east. Driving times to London are, according to Google, 57 minutes to Docklands, 60 to Bishopsgate, 65 to Chancery Lane and 73 to Marble Arch. There is also a choice of two routes; via the A127 or the A13 should one be blocked by an accident. I don't quite see why anyone would specifically want to get onto the A406 North Circular as part of their journey when they would use the M25 until they reached the appropriate exit.
As you quite rightly say, it all depends on where you live/where your UK destination is as to which LON airport will suit you individually but I would suggest that many more than just "locals" find it the most convenient and quickest departure/arrival route.
Lastly, take a look at a map and you'll see SEN isn't on the North Sea and if IATA (rather than just the airport authority) decide it's a London metropolitan airport then that's good enough for me and probably most travellers.
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Expressflight is correct and its is a shame that some are so negative about any and everything to do with. For many years I had doubts as to what might happen. The airport is up and running and doing OK and will continue to do well.
There is no doubt that STN will in time have to become considerable more competitive than it has been under the BAA protectionism. SEN may well be well established by then and will no doubt respond accordingly.
With regard to road journeys to any of the south east airports they are all prone to serious delays at any time of day. The M 11 is always congested at 'rush hours', as is SEN and the A 127, I think most people add time to give themselves the best possible allowance. That is the only way.
I do think however that at some stage the SEN road entry points must change and a lot needs to happen at the roundabout. The business park and Macdonalds will have to go !
Does anyone know what sort of length of leases are outstanding on the business park and are there plans to purchase it ?
There is no doubt that STN will in time have to become considerable more competitive than it has been under the BAA protectionism. SEN may well be well established by then and will no doubt respond accordingly.
With regard to road journeys to any of the south east airports they are all prone to serious delays at any time of day. The M 11 is always congested at 'rush hours', as is SEN and the A 127, I think most people add time to give themselves the best possible allowance. That is the only way.
I do think however that at some stage the SEN road entry points must change and a lot needs to happen at the roundabout. The business park and Macdonalds will have to go !
Does anyone know what sort of length of leases are outstanding on the business park and are there plans to purchase it ?
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I agree with everything you say in that post HZ123.
The retail park, or at least the western end of it, will have to go. Take a look at this old cine film to see a Channel AW Dak taking off on Runway 33.....
The retail park, or at least the western end of it, will have to go. Take a look at this old cine film to see a Channel AW Dak taking off on Runway 33.....
Express - if Stobart are having great difficulty lobbying for the train line to open earlier, can't they just go for plan B for the time being and get National Express to run a few coaches from Liverpool St station between 4am and 6am with maybe stops in Stratford and Romford en route ?
I know I've mentioned it before, but struggling to understand why nothing is being done about coaches.
I know I've mentioned it before, but struggling to understand why nothing is being done about coaches.
davidjohnson6
I tend to agree with you on that.
Obviously National Express may not be interested but I'm sure there are other operators who would be if the package offered was financially attractive. It would at least go some way to answering the critics who raise valid points about the lack of early trains.
Perhaps it's a case where they keep feeling they are getting close to movement on track running hours in their negotiations with Network Rail, but never quite get there.
I tend to agree with you on that.
Obviously National Express may not be interested but I'm sure there are other operators who would be if the package offered was financially attractive. It would at least go some way to answering the critics who raise valid points about the lack of early trains.
Perhaps it's a case where they keep feeling they are getting close to movement on track running hours in their negotiations with Network Rail, but never quite get there.
