SOUTHEND - 3 The new beginning
They may "question" it but I cannot see it doing them any good. If the airport complies with the planning consent with regard to noise levels then end of story.
The 16 hour period noise limit obviously has meaning as it's applied throughout the UK and possibly beyond and has been decided upon as being a level above which remedial action has to be taken. That seems eminently sensible and fair to all parties but perhaps you would disagree.
The 16 hour period noise limit obviously has meaning as it's applied throughout the UK and possibly beyond and has been decided upon as being a level above which remedial action has to be taken. That seems eminently sensible and fair to all parties but perhaps you would disagree.
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In 2011 I read an article that Stobart might have to soundproof homes close to the airport if noise levels were too high. This was part of the planning permission for the runway extension.
I see you use the world "could".- taken from your link. What's the point, unless the word "is" rather than could was used?.
Think you are right there. An average reading over 16 hours has no real meaning then. It won't be long before the locals start to question this.
LTNman..Read this:
Claims of noisy jets at Southend Airport are rejected by council
PEOPLE who protest about increased noise from Southend Airport are confusing its flights with other airports, council chiefs claim.
Bosses at Southend Council said the number of complaints about aircraft noise was at roughly the same level as it had been before easyJet moved into the town in April.
I know this is from July..but if anything, noise late September should be less than high summer.
Last edited by Ernest Lanc's; 29th Sep 2012 at 09:04.
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Some locals are ganging together spearheaded by the local group SAEN , local environmental campaigners and some no win no fee lawyers and chartered surveyors to push for compensation due to loss of property values because of noise. see Residents press for airport compensation (From Echo)
They can put their claims in from 8th March 2013 and have 6 years to claim.
Additionally I believe that some improvements could be claimed for (Double glazing etc) after 18 months of operation as part of the planning agreements for certain nearby properties.
They can put their claims in from 8th March 2013 and have 6 years to claim.
Additionally I believe that some improvements could be claimed for (Double glazing etc) after 18 months of operation as part of the planning agreements for certain nearby properties.
Last edited by maliyahsdad2; 29th Sep 2012 at 09:29.
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Just for interest's sake:
0 dB Normal breathing 20 dB Rustling leaves, mosquito 30 dB Whisper 40 dB Stream, refrigerator humming 50-60 dB Quiet office 50-65 dB Normal conversation 60-65 dB Laughter 70 dB Vacuum cleaner, hair dryer 75 dB Dishwasher 78 dB Washing machine 80 dB Garbage disposal, city traffic noise
63db is very low - normal conversation - but hopefully higher than the ambient noise over 16 hours, although road traffic and birdsong may impact!
0 dB Normal breathing 20 dB Rustling leaves, mosquito 30 dB Whisper 40 dB Stream, refrigerator humming 50-60 dB Quiet office 50-65 dB Normal conversation 60-65 dB Laughter 70 dB Vacuum cleaner, hair dryer 75 dB Dishwasher 78 dB Washing machine 80 dB Garbage disposal, city traffic noise
Prolonged exposure to any noise above 90 dB can
cause gradual hearing loss
84 dB Diesel truck 70-90 dB Recreational vehicle 88 dB Subway, motorcycle 85-90 dB Lawnmower 100 dB Train, garbage truck 97 dB Newspaper press 98 dB Farm tractor cause gradual hearing loss
Regular exposure of more than 1 minute
risks permanent hearing loss.
103 dB Jet flyover at 100 feet 105 dB Snowmobile 110 dB Jackhammer, power saw, symphony orchestra 120 dB Thunderclap, discotheque/boom box 110-125 dB Stereo 110-140 dB Rock concerts 130 dB Jet takeoff, shotgun firing 145 dB Boom cars risks permanent hearing loss.
63db is very low - normal conversation - but hopefully higher than the ambient noise over 16 hours, although road traffic and birdsong may impact!
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Interesting points raised but surly the 16 hour average has to be based on the average dB level created by all aircraft operating out of Southend and can’t include the long gaps between departures. If it does then the anti-airport locals have been conned.
Reading the comments from the council they appear to be fudging the issue but it makes for interesting reading reading the 143 comments below the article.
Reading the comments from the council they appear to be fudging the issue but it makes for interesting reading reading the 143 comments below the article.
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maliyahsdad2
where a solicitor has already offered to act on a no-win, no-fee basis.
Last edited by Ernest Lanc's; 29th Sep 2012 at 11:15.
PitR
As I understand it the 16 hour 63dB noise level does exactly what you suggest. It takes into account the individual noise of each movement over the period (depending on expected traffic mix presumably) and by some mathematical calculation produces the dB level that those movements at those particular noise levels represent over a 16 hour period. This is then factored in relation to the frequency of the noise events as that obviously has a considerably bearing on the overall annoyance/disturbance levels, so gaps between movements DO need to be taken into account.
I'm sure a little Googling will produce the formulae used and explain how it's all done, although I doubt that it makes for light reading.
I believe this same formula is applied to all UK airports so it isn't a case of SEN being an exception to the Government-imposed rule. Whether residents around all UK airports are therefore being "conned" I couldn't say.
As I understand it the 16 hour 63dB noise level does exactly what you suggest. It takes into account the individual noise of each movement over the period (depending on expected traffic mix presumably) and by some mathematical calculation produces the dB level that those movements at those particular noise levels represent over a 16 hour period. This is then factored in relation to the frequency of the noise events as that obviously has a considerably bearing on the overall annoyance/disturbance levels, so gaps between movements DO need to be taken into account.
I'm sure a little Googling will produce the formulae used and explain how it's all done, although I doubt that it makes for light reading.
I believe this same formula is applied to all UK airports so it isn't a case of SEN being an exception to the Government-imposed rule. Whether residents around all UK airports are therefore being "conned" I couldn't say.
Last edited by Expressflight; 29th Sep 2012 at 12:21. Reason: additional text added
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Quote: "Some locals are ganging together spearheaded by the local group SAEN , local environmental campaigners and some no win no fee lawyers and chartered surveyors to push for compensation due to loss of property values because of noise. see Residents press for airport compensation (From Echo)"
Quote: "It's a stunt IMO by the solicitors and chartered accountants, to get fees from any compensation thay hope residents will get."
Quite. Think the word we're looking for is "ambulance chasing".
PPI anyone? BTW has anyone on this forum had unsolicited phone calls from one of these encouraging the commiting of fraud?
Interesting point about property values, are they really falling in southend/Rochford because of the airport? Find it hard to believe.
Under the Heathrow flightpath, in contrast, property prices are rising so fast (and always have done) that first time buyers, including those who have grown up in the area, can't afford to buy locally and often have to leave the area.
Quote: "It's a stunt IMO by the solicitors and chartered accountants, to get fees from any compensation thay hope residents will get."
Quite. Think the word we're looking for is "ambulance chasing".
PPI anyone? BTW has anyone on this forum had unsolicited phone calls from one of these encouraging the commiting of fraud?
Interesting point about property values, are they really falling in southend/Rochford because of the airport? Find it hard to believe.
Under the Heathrow flightpath, in contrast, property prices are rising so fast (and always have done) that first time buyers, including those who have grown up in the area, can't afford to buy locally and often have to leave the area.
Last edited by Fairdealfrank; 29th Sep 2012 at 14:14.
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although Atr's always sound noisy to me
Before the runway was extended, the ATRs often used to fly directly over my house at around 1500ft off 24.
I was impressed at how quiet they were, in fact I only noticed them when I was expecting them from radio chat.
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These 63/69 dB noise levels will be measured within each individual home with all windows shut.
The noise reduce with distance. As an example: The maximum noise from an Airbus A320 with CFM56 engines with max possible thrust on brakes is 109 dB measured 60 metres from centre of the aircraft. If you increase this distance to 10 times that which is 600 metres, you will find by measuring the sound level that it's now 89 dB or lower. The reason for me saying "or lower" is that calculation of noise is based on free field/free sight conditions and with hard surface ground. Grass, shrubs, trees, embankments will absorb and/or deflect the noise. The weak point in every house, when it comes to sound proofing, is the windows. A typical single glass windows reduce the noise with around 20 dB, so a house with single glazed windows 600 metres from an A320 om max power without any vegetation around it (free field) would have had a maximum sound level inside the house of 69 dB. Double glazed sound proof windows will typically reduce the sound with 43-46 dB, but then the walls of the house would be the main noise provider to the inside of the house. If that wasn't the case the same house 600 metres from the A320 at full power would have had peak noise level of 46 dB which would had been equal to a refrigerator humming.
So talking about noise levels as absolute figures is nonsense. The use of the noise levels at Luton have no relevance since the three measuring points at LTN is only placed in accordance with Annex 16/FAR Part 36 Takeoff Reference Point (6,500 metres from brake release). Dependent of how much above 88 dB the last aircraft had, all measured noise levels show results below Stage 3 maximum levels for take offs. This does not tell anything about how little/much noise the residents at the far end of Ludlow Avenue experience the noise to be inside their houses. The CFM56 on an A320 is at the noisiest 120° out from the nose (4 and 8 o'clock). If the aircraft is flying directly above the measuring spot it's 3-4 dB lower than if it's showing the side of the aircraft to measuring unit.
In other word you can't say yes or no to if the 63/69dB limits are broken without measuring inside some of the houses in the neighbourhood to an airport.
The noise reduce with distance. As an example: The maximum noise from an Airbus A320 with CFM56 engines with max possible thrust on brakes is 109 dB measured 60 metres from centre of the aircraft. If you increase this distance to 10 times that which is 600 metres, you will find by measuring the sound level that it's now 89 dB or lower. The reason for me saying "or lower" is that calculation of noise is based on free field/free sight conditions and with hard surface ground. Grass, shrubs, trees, embankments will absorb and/or deflect the noise. The weak point in every house, when it comes to sound proofing, is the windows. A typical single glass windows reduce the noise with around 20 dB, so a house with single glazed windows 600 metres from an A320 om max power without any vegetation around it (free field) would have had a maximum sound level inside the house of 69 dB. Double glazed sound proof windows will typically reduce the sound with 43-46 dB, but then the walls of the house would be the main noise provider to the inside of the house. If that wasn't the case the same house 600 metres from the A320 at full power would have had peak noise level of 46 dB which would had been equal to a refrigerator humming.
So talking about noise levels as absolute figures is nonsense. The use of the noise levels at Luton have no relevance since the three measuring points at LTN is only placed in accordance with Annex 16/FAR Part 36 Takeoff Reference Point (6,500 metres from brake release). Dependent of how much above 88 dB the last aircraft had, all measured noise levels show results below Stage 3 maximum levels for take offs. This does not tell anything about how little/much noise the residents at the far end of Ludlow Avenue experience the noise to be inside their houses. The CFM56 on an A320 is at the noisiest 120° out from the nose (4 and 8 o'clock). If the aircraft is flying directly above the measuring spot it's 3-4 dB lower than if it's showing the side of the aircraft to measuring unit.
In other word you can't say yes or no to if the 63/69dB limits are broken without measuring inside some of the houses in the neighbourhood to an airport.
Last edited by LN-KGL; 29th Sep 2012 at 15:38.
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In a previous life I worked for a DC8-62F operator, DC8-62's that were (supposedly) Stage 3 hushkitted and compliant, but just try taking off from such an airport as LGW at MTOW and remaining Stage 3!
The noise reporting points are indicated on the aerodrome plates, all we did was throttle back as we passed over the reporting point(s) before opening up the throttles again.
It's a nonsense
The noise reporting points are indicated on the aerodrome plates, all we did was throttle back as we passed over the reporting point(s) before opening up the throttles again.
It's a nonsense
Although the information given by LN-KGL is interesting in relation to the noise produced by a single aircraft movement, it has no direct relevance to the 69dB(A)Leq noise contour. It is only properties within that contour which become eligible for purchase by the airport authority.
The Leq noise figure is defined as "the equivalent continuous sound level" based upon the aircraft type mix and number of anticipated movements at an airport. When used to produce a noise contour map it is also defined as "the time weighted average noise level between 07:00 & 23:00". So the 69dB contour on an Leq basis will be very much smaller than the 69bB contour for a single aircraft movement. In fact the 69dB(A)Leq contour projections to 2020 for SEN with its extended runway show it to remain within the airport boundary, with the possible exception of two or three houses on the west side of Southend Road, Rochford.
I think this puts into perspective the extent of any potential liability on the part of Stobarts. Presumably the noise contour map may be amended in the light of 12 months(?) operational experience of the extended runway but it's hard to see that producing sufficient difference to the 69dB noise contour so as to include any other properties.
The Leq noise figure is defined as "the equivalent continuous sound level" based upon the aircraft type mix and number of anticipated movements at an airport. When used to produce a noise contour map it is also defined as "the time weighted average noise level between 07:00 & 23:00". So the 69dB contour on an Leq basis will be very much smaller than the 69bB contour for a single aircraft movement. In fact the 69dB(A)Leq contour projections to 2020 for SEN with its extended runway show it to remain within the airport boundary, with the possible exception of two or three houses on the west side of Southend Road, Rochford.
I think this puts into perspective the extent of any potential liability on the part of Stobarts. Presumably the noise contour map may be amended in the light of 12 months(?) operational experience of the extended runway but it's hard to see that producing sufficient difference to the 69dB noise contour so as to include any other properties.
Last edited by Expressflight; 30th Sep 2012 at 08:34. Reason: spelling
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It is all here with out of date 2006 contour lines before the runway extension was built.
http://ripassetseu.s3.amazonaws.com/..._March_201.pdf
Interesting points made here about Southend and its new noise rules. A very quick read and I might have read it wrong will have some implications if easyjet want to base more than 3 aircraft at Southend as movements after 11pm are restricted to just 3 a night as night includes the times beween 23:00 and 23:30
No passenger flights may be scheduled to arrive or depart during Night Time Hours, except that up to a maximum of 90 passenger flights in any one calendar month may be scheduled to arrive between 23:00 and 23:30 local time, such flights to be included in the Monthly Quota.
Also some aircraft are now banned
No aircraft with a noise level exceeding QC2 shall take off or land at any time, unless they are emergency flights, military flights, Government business flights or police flights, maintenance flights or diversions. QC4 aircraft using the airport for maintenance may land or take off only during the Day Time (0630-2300 hrs) and the total QC4 aircraft movements will be limited to 60 per annum
http://ripassetseu.s3.amazonaws.com/..._March_201.pdf
Interesting points made here about Southend and its new noise rules. A very quick read and I might have read it wrong will have some implications if easyjet want to base more than 3 aircraft at Southend as movements after 11pm are restricted to just 3 a night as night includes the times beween 23:00 and 23:30
No passenger flights may be scheduled to arrive or depart during Night Time Hours, except that up to a maximum of 90 passenger flights in any one calendar month may be scheduled to arrive between 23:00 and 23:30 local time, such flights to be included in the Monthly Quota.
Also some aircraft are now banned
No aircraft with a noise level exceeding QC2 shall take off or land at any time, unless they are emergency flights, military flights, Government business flights or police flights, maintenance flights or diversions. QC4 aircraft using the airport for maintenance may land or take off only during the Day Time (0630-2300 hrs) and the total QC4 aircraft movements will be limited to 60 per annum
Last edited by LTNman; 30th Sep 2012 at 10:27.
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London Southend Airport Noise Action Plan from March 2012:
46 EXPECTED OUTCOME
It is not possible at this stage to forecast the outcome of the proposed noise reduction measures. The planning application Environmental Assessment contains forecasts of the noise contours and the respective numbers of persons within each contour for the Base Case and the Development Case. In summary, the areas and populations within each contour are as set out in Table 16 below:
Table 16: Dwellings and People in Noise Contour Areas – LAeq,16h (16h Period): 2020
46 EXPECTED OUTCOME
It is not possible at this stage to forecast the outcome of the proposed noise reduction measures. The planning application Environmental Assessment contains forecasts of the noise contours and the respective numbers of persons within each contour for the Base Case and the Development Case. In summary, the areas and populations within each contour are as set out in Table 16 below:
Table 16: Dwellings and People in Noise Contour Areas – LAeq,16h (16h Period): 2020
Source: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j..._pQ6rk3VI98JbQ
Last edited by LN-KGL; 30th Sep 2012 at 11:17.
LN-KGL
As I mentioned in my earlier post this morning, the two or three houses on Southend Road are the only properties predicted to fall within in the 2020 69dB(A)Leq16h contour. That will, of course, need to be confirmed in due course by new measurements of actual noise levels.
As I mentioned in my earlier post this morning, the two or three houses on Southend Road are the only properties predicted to fall within in the 2020 69dB(A)Leq16h contour. That will, of course, need to be confirmed in due course by new measurements of actual noise levels.
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Engine runs
SEN seems to have a fair bit of maintenance activity and I was there last week when an engine run was being undertaken. This lasted in excess of 15 minutes in the early evening and would undoubtedly have been heard by, and caused a noise nuisance to, houses outside of the normal arrivals/departure corridor. Does this type of activity and its attendant noise contribute to the 16 hour average?
