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Phillias - When WOWBOY said that NQY + PLH worked together i beleive he was refering to more recent times than what you are talking about. The BA and then WOW route worked very well 4 times a day to Gatwick by picking up passengers at NQY and PLH.
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Hi Phileas...
NQY/SEN straight across the cheeks from one a*se end of the Country to the other. Must remember that service when next flying from London, oh, or I could just get the bus it would be quicker.
NQY/SEN straight across the cheeks from one a*se end of the Country to the other. Must remember that service when next flying from London, oh, or I could just get the bus it would be quicker.
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Phileas, I doubt anyone from the Midlands, much of the Home Counties, or indeed vast chunks of London would use this service to NQY but here in Essex there are rather a lot of us living 45 minutes or less from the check in desk at Southend and this service, at a mere 3x weekly, is of great benefit. We couldn't give a monkeys that the airport has London in its name. Though now I mention London, along with us Essex residents are a whole host more living throughout Havering, Barking, Dagenham who have an easy drive and rather a few from more central areas such as Canary Wharf, Shoreditch and other affluent/trendy locations for whom the airport is an easy train journey.
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The BA and then WOW route worked very well 4 times a day to Gatwick by picking up passengers at NQY and PLH
I must remember such a business strategy for any of my forthcoming business ventures.
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Phileas - You are making the mistake by assuming it was a run by an aviation company that wanted to make a profit out of it. When in fact as some of us that were involved with the operation know, it was run by a development company that was looking for the first opportunity to manipulate the books to show that it was not profitable so they could close the close the airport.
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If a new operator could be found with a 50 - 100 seat offering, would it not be worthwhile having the drop off in EXT on flights. There must be a market for London from EXT judging by the train pax numbers and would not having both destinations given an operator more confidence in terms of pax numbers?
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The LGW/PLH & NQY operation on the dash8 was for a few years quite profitable.
A number of factors changed this situation without any fiddling of the books : -
1/Flybe introduced a 3 times daily service on NQY/LGW with almost identical timings to WOW service . Decent load factors were maintained but only at the expense of yield and profitability.
2/The general downturn in the UK economy had a negative impact.
3/Switch of longhaul routes from LGW to LHR reduced connecting potential.
4/Probably the final nail , was Gatwick airports change in pricing strategy
Aimed at discouraging operators of small aircraft . This meant a sizeable proportion of seats had to be sold just to pay for landing fees and leaving little room to make any profit .
A number of factors changed this situation without any fiddling of the books : -
1/Flybe introduced a 3 times daily service on NQY/LGW with almost identical timings to WOW service . Decent load factors were maintained but only at the expense of yield and profitability.
2/The general downturn in the UK economy had a negative impact.
3/Switch of longhaul routes from LGW to LHR reduced connecting potential.
4/Probably the final nail , was Gatwick airports change in pricing strategy
Aimed at discouraging operators of small aircraft . This meant a sizeable proportion of seats had to be sold just to pay for landing fees and leaving little room to make any profit .
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Trafficnotsighted - No SHH started WOW because if they hadn't there would have been no business at PLH at all at that time. They could have shut it down without losing millions of pounds at any subsequent time had they wanted to.
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But the NQY & PLH routes were only supposed to be combined for a matter of a few months until a 4th DHC7 was supposed to arrive.
That was 30 years ago that it didn't arrive, BCALBOY talks of a number of factors whilst trafficnotsighted talks of "some of us that were involved with the operation know".
Well I was involved in the operation when the routes became combined those 30 years ago and I still recall the uproar from both the PLH and, particularly, the NQY passengers that their direct services had been taken away from them and that factor still remained until the closure of the PLH route and indeed WOW ... That the passengers wanted/want direct services.
So many years later Flybe arrived on the NQY route offering DIRECT services, OK Flybe don't operate small enough aircraft to appropriately service the route hence why it's probably proved unprofitable for them but they offered what the passengers wanted ... Direct services.
When PLH closed I recall a group getting together announcing that they could PDQ put together a Jetstream operation to recommence services ... Well here's their chance, go get their Jetstream(s) and start with services out of NQY!
That was 30 years ago that it didn't arrive, BCALBOY talks of a number of factors whilst trafficnotsighted talks of "some of us that were involved with the operation know".
Well I was involved in the operation when the routes became combined those 30 years ago and I still recall the uproar from both the PLH and, particularly, the NQY passengers that their direct services had been taken away from them and that factor still remained until the closure of the PLH route and indeed WOW ... That the passengers wanted/want direct services.
So many years later Flybe arrived on the NQY route offering DIRECT services, OK Flybe don't operate small enough aircraft to appropriately service the route hence why it's probably proved unprofitable for them but they offered what the passengers wanted ... Direct services.
When PLH closed I recall a group getting together announcing that they could PDQ put together a Jetstream operation to recommence services ... Well here's their chance, go get their Jetstream(s) and start with services out of NQY!
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Phileas Fogg you are a wise, wise person !
What services do you see being at NQY in five years and operated by who ?
cs
What services do you see being at NQY in five years and operated by who ?
cs
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Simon,
Where I am (on Siargao Island), and my business that I am involved in developing, I am becoming out of touch with the UK airline scene and I'm not about to start speculating that NQY, indeed Devon and Cornwall, could become anything more than a "cottage industry" for aviation.
I believe there is a modest future for PLH if it were to re-open, those 30 years ago, initially, Brymon struggled for half fill a Twotter on the PLH/ORK route but when commercial started marketing that punters could travel by train to/from PLH to then fly PLH/ORK/PLH for less than it may cost from elsewhere, well all of a sudden Brymon were filling 50 seaters, never mind 20 seaters, on the ORK route.
Something NQY cannot offer is a thru rail connection but, as I was in discussion with certain people a couple of years or so back, there is a market for a "cottage industry" air operation in Devon & Cornwall, particularly if PLH were to re-open, perhaps operating a small fleet similar to Do228's/Do328's, obviously operating to an airport near to London, Manchester (for international connections also), across the Irish sea and to the Channel Islands, perhaps Brittany also.
A once a week Scotland (ABZ) 50 seater proved popular all those years ago so perhaps a modestly served Scottish route also but I can't foresee too much more than these.
Where I am (on Siargao Island), and my business that I am involved in developing, I am becoming out of touch with the UK airline scene and I'm not about to start speculating that NQY, indeed Devon and Cornwall, could become anything more than a "cottage industry" for aviation.
I believe there is a modest future for PLH if it were to re-open, those 30 years ago, initially, Brymon struggled for half fill a Twotter on the PLH/ORK route but when commercial started marketing that punters could travel by train to/from PLH to then fly PLH/ORK/PLH for less than it may cost from elsewhere, well all of a sudden Brymon were filling 50 seaters, never mind 20 seaters, on the ORK route.
Something NQY cannot offer is a thru rail connection but, as I was in discussion with certain people a couple of years or so back, there is a market for a "cottage industry" air operation in Devon & Cornwall, particularly if PLH were to re-open, perhaps operating a small fleet similar to Do228's/Do328's, obviously operating to an airport near to London, Manchester (for international connections also), across the Irish sea and to the Channel Islands, perhaps Brittany also.
A once a week Scotland (ABZ) 50 seater proved popular all those years ago so perhaps a modestly served Scottish route also but I can't foresee too much more than these.
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GROUNDHOG
Yes and no on that one - they could have walked away without founding Air Southwest, but there was nothing to gain then.
In 2000 they took over the remainder of British Airway's lease on PLH, it had something like four or five years left IIRC. At the time they negotiated the 150 year lease with the fantastically juicy 'Armageddon' clause, but it wasn't formally awarded and signed until 2004, around a year after Sutton Harbor founded Air Southwest. In fact the signing was a political football in getting Air Southwest founded.
So yes, when BA (inevitably) pulled out Sutton could have claimed non viability and closed PLH, but back then they wouldn't have benefited from 25% of any proceeds in doing so.
Yes and no on that one - they could have walked away without founding Air Southwest, but there was nothing to gain then.
In 2000 they took over the remainder of British Airway's lease on PLH, it had something like four or five years left IIRC. At the time they negotiated the 150 year lease with the fantastically juicy 'Armageddon' clause, but it wasn't formally awarded and signed until 2004, around a year after Sutton Harbor founded Air Southwest. In fact the signing was a political football in getting Air Southwest founded.
So yes, when BA (inevitably) pulled out Sutton could have claimed non viability and closed PLH, but back then they wouldn't have benefited from 25% of any proceeds in doing so.
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PlymSpotter,
So SHH founded Air Southwest in 2003 and they got their "Armageddon" clause signed in 2004 and, at any time thereafter, they could have sold up and walked away with a pocket full of dosh, got the money in the bank PDQ and sat back watching the interest accumulate!
But, with Air Southwest being a relative virgin, they tried to develop it not just thru 2004 but thru 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010 and indeed part of 2011.
But you're suggesting that SHH had no interest in operating Air Southwest once they had their "Armageddon" clause signed way back in 2004?
Is this how long it takes for directors to reach a decision in Devon ... 7 Years?
So SHH founded Air Southwest in 2003 and they got their "Armageddon" clause signed in 2004 and, at any time thereafter, they could have sold up and walked away with a pocket full of dosh, got the money in the bank PDQ and sat back watching the interest accumulate!
But, with Air Southwest being a relative virgin, they tried to develop it not just thru 2004 but thru 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010 and indeed part of 2011.
But you're suggesting that SHH had no interest in operating Air Southwest once they had their "Armageddon" clause signed way back in 2004?
Is this how long it takes for directors to reach a decision in Devon ... 7 Years?
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Walking away with a pocket full of dosh as you put it was only an option should the airport be 'unviable'. Until that time they were not entitled to benefit from such an option.
It's not that they didn't have an interest in operating Air Southwest, that is not my point or assertion - for much of the carriers existence it made money, so Sutton made money, and everybody was happy. But in the first place, the prospect of what was then dubbed 'an airline for Plymouth' pulled certain levers in the political world which saw Sutton awarded the said lease and terms.
It's not that they didn't have an interest in operating Air Southwest, that is not my point or assertion - for much of the carriers existence it made money, so Sutton made money, and everybody was happy. But in the first place, the prospect of what was then dubbed 'an airline for Plymouth' pulled certain levers in the political world which saw Sutton awarded the said lease and terms.
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How come every new item that comes on to this this thread, leads back to air southwest and plymouth, lets move forward and talk about the news now and in the future. both are never coming back and it's getting quite boring and repetitive
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But in the first place, the prospect of what was then dubbed 'an airline for Plymouth'
So how did that make ASW 'an airline for Plymouth'?
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Devonish - Nobody is forcing you to read or participate...
Phileas - First came PLH-NQY-LGW which was the reason for their inception, then BRS, MAN and JER were launched from PLH alone. More routes via NQY came later.
Phileas - First came PLH-NQY-LGW which was the reason for their inception, then BRS, MAN and JER were launched from PLH alone. More routes via NQY came later.
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Devonish - Nobody is forcing you to read or participate...
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Don't forget that at one stage in addition to the 4 daily PLH/NQY-LGW SZ also operated an extra NQY-LGW-NQY rotation.
Don't think SZ ever operated direct PLH-LGW without routing via NQY or originating at NQY.
cs
Don't think SZ ever operated direct PLH-LGW without routing via NQY or originating at NQY.
cs
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devonish & JobsaGoodun,
Taking in to consideration the operators of the NQY/LON/NQY route over the past 30+ years it can be difficult to talk about the NQY route without talking about it's partner PLH route and the said operators of such routes, namely Brymon & ASW both of which were PLH based operators.
I get devonish's point, that "we're" getting fed up hearing about if/when/maybe/not PLH might or might not re-open, after all this forum is for airlines, airports and routes and Plymouth doesn't have any of those.
But, aside from the PLH flag wavers, please try to bear with some of us because, as I say, it can be difficult to talk about one without talking about the other.
Taking in to consideration the operators of the NQY/LON/NQY route over the past 30+ years it can be difficult to talk about the NQY route without talking about it's partner PLH route and the said operators of such routes, namely Brymon & ASW both of which were PLH based operators.
I get devonish's point, that "we're" getting fed up hearing about if/when/maybe/not PLH might or might not re-open, after all this forum is for airlines, airports and routes and Plymouth doesn't have any of those.
But, aside from the PLH flag wavers, please try to bear with some of us because, as I say, it can be difficult to talk about one without talking about the other.