CARDIFF - 2
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I perfectly understand that despite the number of Ryanair aircraft at Bristol reducing from 5 last summer to just 2 this summer, the number of flights will increase. To be precise, it's currently 242 weekly FR flights to/from BRS in August, as said, slightly up on last year.
We all know FR will throw their toys out the pram IF they are unhappy, but on the plus side, look what they will do if they are happy. Take a look at my local airport, East Midlands for instance, or more recently at Manchester, sustained growth in FR traffic.
If we're talking long term, I fail to see how Vueling can be relied on for long term commitment or growth in Cardiff. I think it's fair to assume there's little chance of Vueling opening a base at Cardiff, the few Spanish routes is as far as it's going to go with them realistically.
I don't believe that Ryanair will completely pull out of Cardiff again once it has set up a base or even serves Cardiff without a base but with several routes to other FR bases across Europe. It's very rare for FR to completely close a base airport and although reductions may occur in future spats, Vueling are still very small in volume so I don't think they will ever end up in a worse position.
Also, it isn't really a matter of choice. In today's economic climate, no one can afford to be too picky about whether it's Vueling, Ryanair, easyJet, Jet2 etc. They all offer a similar service in a nutshell and would offer similar routes. If FR express an interest and Cardiff Airport can attract them, then that is good news. They will not completely rule out Ryanair so they can cling onto a few Vueling routes or hope that EasyJet or Jet2 express an interest in the future at some point (the former I think very unlikely due to it's huge presence in Bristol).
We all know FR will throw their toys out the pram IF they are unhappy, but on the plus side, look what they will do if they are happy. Take a look at my local airport, East Midlands for instance, or more recently at Manchester, sustained growth in FR traffic.
If we're talking long term, I fail to see how Vueling can be relied on for long term commitment or growth in Cardiff. I think it's fair to assume there's little chance of Vueling opening a base at Cardiff, the few Spanish routes is as far as it's going to go with them realistically.
I don't believe that Ryanair will completely pull out of Cardiff again once it has set up a base or even serves Cardiff without a base but with several routes to other FR bases across Europe. It's very rare for FR to completely close a base airport and although reductions may occur in future spats, Vueling are still very small in volume so I don't think they will ever end up in a worse position.
Also, it isn't really a matter of choice. In today's economic climate, no one can afford to be too picky about whether it's Vueling, Ryanair, easyJet, Jet2 etc. They all offer a similar service in a nutshell and would offer similar routes. If FR express an interest and Cardiff Airport can attract them, then that is good news. They will not completely rule out Ryanair so they can cling onto a few Vueling routes or hope that EasyJet or Jet2 express an interest in the future at some point (the former I think very unlikely due to it's huge presence in Bristol).
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cardiff
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Whilst FR and EZY are known in Spain, I doubt they would come close to the brand presence VY has in Spain. One thing CWL, and the Welsh Government is looking to do is attract visitors to Wales. VY are giving the opportunity to bring the Spanish to Wales, something that has been stated before.
Likewise with LH, the OS charters and the more recently failed Helvetic route.
If Vueling realise they have the Welsh market ready to go, its more than half their job done in attracting passengers to travel both ways, rather than just taking the Welsh on their holidays, they have the brand presence to bring the Spanish to Wales. The likes of FR, EZY, LS and MON would be the opposite in concentrating on carrying the Welsh away from the country as their brand presence might not match VY's in Spain.
Whilst I think a base is a long way off, the routes VY could operate could easily fill 2 aircraft with just mainland Spain, Balearics and even the Canaries.
The question is, is it running before they can walk? I think 2013 will be a defining year for VY at CWL.
Likewise with LH, the OS charters and the more recently failed Helvetic route.
If Vueling realise they have the Welsh market ready to go, its more than half their job done in attracting passengers to travel both ways, rather than just taking the Welsh on their holidays, they have the brand presence to bring the Spanish to Wales. The likes of FR, EZY, LS and MON would be the opposite in concentrating on carrying the Welsh away from the country as their brand presence might not match VY's in Spain.
Whilst I think a base is a long way off, the routes VY could operate could easily fill 2 aircraft with just mainland Spain, Balearics and even the Canaries.
The question is, is it running before they can walk? I think 2013 will be a defining year for VY at CWL.
Join Date: Jan 2007
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EasyJet are not interested in Cardiff and neither are Ryanair really. They will only come to Cardiff if they offer them a deal that they can't refuse. Cardiff Airport has spent a shed loads of money on advertising of late pushing the Vueling routes. Newspapers, Several radio stations, Wales Autumn Internationals, Ticket barriers at Swansea & Cardiff stations etc and wouldn't this all be a waste of effort and money.
I believe what is understood here is how fragile the South Wales economy is currently compared to that of Bristol and the catchment area. Yes a lot of Welsh passengers use Bristol however not enough to sustain the Ryanair network currently operated out of Bristol.
Now if Ryanair or any other airline wanted to set up then the airport of course wouldn't refuse them however why should the airport management incentivise four douplication of routes? Ryanair has a track record of threatening to withdraw all of the time however the reason why they never is likely due to the airport giving in.
Manchester initially didn't fully embrace the low cost carriers however they have now changed their stance. Don't forget the airport also has a range of other airlines which may counteract the very little fees that Ryanair must be paying.
Actually it is a matter of choice because decisions made now could impact the future. You don't plan for now you plan for a few years time. It took Vueling four years to come to Cardiff after initial talks with the airport management. If you don't think they could end up in a worse position then guess again.
We currently have Vueling and you don't know what talks are going on considering the Welsh Government have also launched a visit Wales marketing campaign in Catalonia.
2012
BCN 3 x weekly A320 (Summer season from March)
PMI 3 x weekly A319 (Summer season from June)
ALC 3 x weekly A319 (Summer season from June)
(Peak season capacity approx 1398 per week)
2013
BCN 2 x weekly A320 (Summer Season from March)
PMI 3 x weekly A320 (Summer Season from June)
ALC 3 x weekly A320 (Summer Season from March)
AGP 4 x weekly A320 (Summer Season from March)
(Peak season capacity approx 2136 per week)
Based on Vueling seating capacity which I believe to be A320 - 178 seats / A319 - 144 seats.
Vueling also offers more onward connection choices through their Barcelona hub along with Iberia onward connections which cannot be ignored.
Now if you invite Ryanair then lose Vueling then have to increase fares eventually to make some money. Ryanair throws their toys out of the pram you would be left in a worse position because there would be less low cost airlines to step in the gap. Especially as Easyjet are not likely to be interested due to their very large aircraft base at Bristol and would dilute their own passengers.
I believe what is understood here is how fragile the South Wales economy is currently compared to that of Bristol and the catchment area. Yes a lot of Welsh passengers use Bristol however not enough to sustain the Ryanair network currently operated out of Bristol.
Now if Ryanair or any other airline wanted to set up then the airport of course wouldn't refuse them however why should the airport management incentivise four douplication of routes? Ryanair has a track record of threatening to withdraw all of the time however the reason why they never is likely due to the airport giving in.
Manchester initially didn't fully embrace the low cost carriers however they have now changed their stance. Don't forget the airport also has a range of other airlines which may counteract the very little fees that Ryanair must be paying.
Actually it is a matter of choice because decisions made now could impact the future. You don't plan for now you plan for a few years time. It took Vueling four years to come to Cardiff after initial talks with the airport management. If you don't think they could end up in a worse position then guess again.
We currently have Vueling and you don't know what talks are going on considering the Welsh Government have also launched a visit Wales marketing campaign in Catalonia.
2012
BCN 3 x weekly A320 (Summer season from March)
PMI 3 x weekly A319 (Summer season from June)
ALC 3 x weekly A319 (Summer season from June)
(Peak season capacity approx 1398 per week)
2013
BCN 2 x weekly A320 (Summer Season from March)
PMI 3 x weekly A320 (Summer Season from June)
ALC 3 x weekly A320 (Summer Season from March)
AGP 4 x weekly A320 (Summer Season from March)
(Peak season capacity approx 2136 per week)
Based on Vueling seating capacity which I believe to be A320 - 178 seats / A319 - 144 seats.
Vueling also offers more onward connection choices through their Barcelona hub along with Iberia onward connections which cannot be ignored.
Now if you invite Ryanair then lose Vueling then have to increase fares eventually to make some money. Ryanair throws their toys out of the pram you would be left in a worse position because there would be less low cost airlines to step in the gap. Especially as Easyjet are not likely to be interested due to their very large aircraft base at Bristol and would dilute their own passengers.
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What ever airlines are attrached, I am sure Cardiff will attract more passengers. For those living in Wales it needs to be sold as supporting "our airport".
On another note the BBC Wales 6 oclock news gave first slot to the sale of the airport and very good positive coverage with a business leader fully supporting the sale. On itv Wales news it was 3rd slot,very negative and even had the same business leader but the words cut to make it look like she was against it. Itv were also very negative about Helvetic. I guess someone high up in itv lives on the flight path. Now all the political leaders need to get behind the airport and not make cheap point scoring comments about nationalisation etc
On Ryanair all the supporters/passengers want to be able to fly to more destinations and they will certainly do that. If it takes too long for more destinations to become available then passengers may feel that the sale was not money well spent.
On another note the BBC Wales 6 oclock news gave first slot to the sale of the airport and very good positive coverage with a business leader fully supporting the sale. On itv Wales news it was 3rd slot,very negative and even had the same business leader but the words cut to make it look like she was against it. Itv were also very negative about Helvetic. I guess someone high up in itv lives on the flight path. Now all the political leaders need to get behind the airport and not make cheap point scoring comments about nationalisation etc
On Ryanair all the supporters/passengers want to be able to fly to more destinations and they will certainly do that. If it takes too long for more destinations to become available then passengers may feel that the sale was not money well spent.
Last edited by heading 125; 28th Mar 2013 at 10:53.
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On Ryanair all the supporters/passengers want to be able to fly to more destinations and they will certainly do that. If it takes too long for more destinations to become available then passengers may feel that the sale was not money well spent.
Vueling has once again won another award so that is five in total now within the last 12 months. Also how many Welsh travellers want to pay the various huge penalties for geniune mistakes at the airport which could costs to double the ticket price?
Join Date: Apr 2012
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Also how many Welsh travellers want to pay the various huge penalties for geniune mistakes at the airport which could costs to double the ticket price?
Whatever else he is, MOL is not stupid and FR are not the biggest LoCo in Europe for nothing.
If the WA wants Ryanair, there is little anyone will be able to do to convince them against it!
Does anyone know if Abertis are retaining the operating contract for CWL? or is it going to be a wholesale change?
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Level playing field
I am a supporter of Bristol Airport and wish CWL good luck. Competition is great but must be on a level playing field....rest assured our man in BRS will be watching CWL like a hawk!! You only have to look back to the 70s and 80s to see where political involvement upset the balance. Bristol has had to fight tooth and nail to where it stands today and will continue to do so....they have had inspiring men at the top with innovation and forethought and the investment. I hear many welsh people expressing their opinions and supporting BRS and the availability of reliable routes.
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As much as it pains me to say anything positive about the Irish I have to just put right a few misunderstandings about the current european aviation environment. Someone mentioned that Vueling were a bigger brand in Spain than Ryanair and that there is a massive market in untapped Spanish tourists. Sorry not true. How do I know. I actually work there (on and off).
Ryanair have as many aircraft based in Spain as Vueling and probably operate twice the number of routes if you count the non spanish based aircraft coming in and out of Spain on a daily basis. Plus if you haven't noticed Spain hasn't got any money.
The other thing that people don't seem to understand and I include several BBC air transport commentators in this is that Ryanair do not rely on the Leisure market to make their money (not that they make any flying pax but that's another story). Ryanair's main market in southern europe isn't northen europeans sunning themselves but the 50% of the youth of southern europe that can't find a job there but can in northern europe. They are the commuter airline of choice for the Spanish, Italian and Portuguese "strivers" as David Cameron would call them. Those, to quote another tory, who have got on their 737 and found a job elsewhere in europe. The only Spanish travelling in any numbers are those travelling for economic reasons and Ryanair is their airline of choice. I've seen it ! I've operated those flights. There is no great Spanish tourism to northern europe there never has been no matter how good Vuellings brand is in Spain they aren't just waiting for the opportunity to desert the costas for the Gavin and Stacey tour ! There aren't any jobs for them in South Wales that's why they aren't coming in numbers.
I know you're just sticking up for the airline that's giving CWL a go. And good luck to them and CWL. But to suggest that they are even close to being the force FR or EZY are (even in Spain) is not true. Sorry. That isn't to say that FR won't be interested in CWL. If the WA cut APD MOL would be there in minutes to show his "support" to those increasing his profits, sorry lowering fares for ordinary travellers.
Ryanair have as many aircraft based in Spain as Vueling and probably operate twice the number of routes if you count the non spanish based aircraft coming in and out of Spain on a daily basis. Plus if you haven't noticed Spain hasn't got any money.
The other thing that people don't seem to understand and I include several BBC air transport commentators in this is that Ryanair do not rely on the Leisure market to make their money (not that they make any flying pax but that's another story). Ryanair's main market in southern europe isn't northen europeans sunning themselves but the 50% of the youth of southern europe that can't find a job there but can in northern europe. They are the commuter airline of choice for the Spanish, Italian and Portuguese "strivers" as David Cameron would call them. Those, to quote another tory, who have got on their 737 and found a job elsewhere in europe. The only Spanish travelling in any numbers are those travelling for economic reasons and Ryanair is their airline of choice. I've seen it ! I've operated those flights. There is no great Spanish tourism to northern europe there never has been no matter how good Vuellings brand is in Spain they aren't just waiting for the opportunity to desert the costas for the Gavin and Stacey tour ! There aren't any jobs for them in South Wales that's why they aren't coming in numbers.
I know you're just sticking up for the airline that's giving CWL a go. And good luck to them and CWL. But to suggest that they are even close to being the force FR or EZY are (even in Spain) is not true. Sorry. That isn't to say that FR won't be interested in CWL. If the WA cut APD MOL would be there in minutes to show his "support" to those increasing his profits, sorry lowering fares for ordinary travellers.
He's right though. You'd need to be on pretty strong prescription drugs to think there's a market for inbound tourism from Spain to South Wales.
WWW
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I am a supporter of Cardiff Airport
I predict if/when it starts making a profit again, it will be re-sold back to the private sector leaving the tax - payer with an overall loss. (sound familiar)
Here comes the new boss.....same as the old boss
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New MD
Cardiff airport announces new chief executive. Former managing director Jon Horne is returning...
Cardiff airport announces new chief executive - www.travelweekly.co.uk
Cardiff airport announces new chief executive - www.travelweekly.co.uk
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Thomas Cook has finally confirmed that during the Summer of 2013 the Cardiff based aircraft has been upgraded to a Airbus A321.
This of course was one of the worst kept secrets and many have known for several months.
Source: Wales Air Forum
press release sent by Thomas Cook Press Ofice
This of course was one of the worst kept secrets and many have known for several months.
Source: Wales Air Forum
press release sent by Thomas Cook Press Ofice
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If you want Cardiff to be a winner scrap APD.....
That would give you a massive competitive edge against Bristol !
Not sure the Welsh Assembly could do it but they now own the airport.
I am pretty sure a well placed marketing campaign aimed at Central Government would pay dividends.......
That would give you a massive competitive edge against Bristol !
Not sure the Welsh Assembly could do it but they now own the airport.
I am pretty sure a well placed marketing campaign aimed at Central Government would pay dividends.......
Brunel to Concorde
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Devolution of APD to Wales has been in the minds of senior Wales government figures for a number of years and the First Minister has often mentioned the potential benefits of such a move for Cardiff Airport.
In 2011 the Westminster government held a consultation into APD with devolution one of the issues that resulted in nothing being decided in relation to Wales or Scotland. In other words, it was placed in the too-hard-to-do basket at that time.
The then Economic Secretary to the Treasury, Justine Greening, said in a letter to my MP at the time of the consultation that 'several airports, airlines and individuals have raised concerns regarding the potential distortion arising from differential APD rates between Cardiff and Bristol, as well as between Newcastle and Scottish airports'.
In November 2012 the Silk Commission, set up by the Welsh Secretary to report on all aspects of Devolution in Wales, presented its report on fiscal powers and recommended, inter alia, that several smaller types of tax should be devolved to Wales, including long haul APD in the first instance.
There is now an ongoing Westminster Transport Select Committee enquiry into the government's aviation strategy and one of the specific issues to be considered is APD.
The Davies Commission, though not specifically charged with looking at APD, is to report on airport capacity and related matters so it's difficult to believe that APD will not feature in the deliberations no matter how indirectly. The full Davies report is not expected until after the next General Election.
The Bristol Airport CEO has been vocal and consistent in his opposition to pubic money skewing his market, with direct reference to Wales, and recently the Birmingham Airport CEO has said much the same thing.
Although it would undoubtedly be a benefit to Wales and its main airport if APD was to be devolved, so it would to airports such as Durham Tees Valley or even Exeter, where Bristol Airport takes a significant slice of Devon and Cornwall traffic as it does Welsh traffic, if those airports enjoyed a less onerous APD rate.
CWL would be in an incredibly advantageous position if APD was to be devolved to Wales as it would effectively be able to set its own APD rates whilst it remained owned by the Wales government.
This issue will not go away and at some point the politicians will have to decide one way or the other. At present it just lies smouldering in the long grass.
In 2011 the Westminster government held a consultation into APD with devolution one of the issues that resulted in nothing being decided in relation to Wales or Scotland. In other words, it was placed in the too-hard-to-do basket at that time.
The then Economic Secretary to the Treasury, Justine Greening, said in a letter to my MP at the time of the consultation that 'several airports, airlines and individuals have raised concerns regarding the potential distortion arising from differential APD rates between Cardiff and Bristol, as well as between Newcastle and Scottish airports'.
In November 2012 the Silk Commission, set up by the Welsh Secretary to report on all aspects of Devolution in Wales, presented its report on fiscal powers and recommended, inter alia, that several smaller types of tax should be devolved to Wales, including long haul APD in the first instance.
There is now an ongoing Westminster Transport Select Committee enquiry into the government's aviation strategy and one of the specific issues to be considered is APD.
The Davies Commission, though not specifically charged with looking at APD, is to report on airport capacity and related matters so it's difficult to believe that APD will not feature in the deliberations no matter how indirectly. The full Davies report is not expected until after the next General Election.
The Bristol Airport CEO has been vocal and consistent in his opposition to pubic money skewing his market, with direct reference to Wales, and recently the Birmingham Airport CEO has said much the same thing.
Although it would undoubtedly be a benefit to Wales and its main airport if APD was to be devolved, so it would to airports such as Durham Tees Valley or even Exeter, where Bristol Airport takes a significant slice of Devon and Cornwall traffic as it does Welsh traffic, if those airports enjoyed a less onerous APD rate.
CWL would be in an incredibly advantageous position if APD was to be devolved to Wales as it would effectively be able to set its own APD rates whilst it remained owned by the Wales government.
This issue will not go away and at some point the politicians will have to decide one way or the other. At present it just lies smouldering in the long grass.
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CWL carried 55,301 passengers in March 2013, leading to an 18% drop. This was mainly due to French Six Nations airlift falling in February this year.
It does mean that CWL has officially fallen below 1 million passengers for this rolling year (Mar-Mar). Oh dear
.
It does mean that CWL has officially fallen below 1 million passengers for this rolling year (Mar-Mar). Oh dear
.
The route from Cardiff to ANGLESEY carried 702 passengers in March (down from 831 March last year) or 11 passengers each way per day. Given roughly 2 flights per day that would be 6 per flight (they could car share??). How many seats does the L4T have? How much does the local government spend on this? More importantly, are they the same peolpe who think it is a good idea to buy and run Cardiff airport?
bb
bb
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
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Many moons ago, when I had the 'cheek' to criticise this routes on grounds of financial insanity, I was generally spat upon as being someone who clearly despised Welsh aviation. It seems as time goes by, I can start to wear my 'told you so' t-shirt....
In answer to you, bad bear - yes, it is the same mob who have just bought the airport. And in terms of subsidy, it works out much cheaper to hire each passenger a chauffeur driven S Class Mercedes.
TA
In answer to you, bad bear - yes, it is the same mob who have just bought the airport. And in terms of subsidy, it works out much cheaper to hire each passenger a chauffeur driven S Class Mercedes.
TA
