CARDIFF - 2
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
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Perhaps a little light for the debate, from my own research using the WAG's data....
In the first year of operation, the route generated 1,879 new trips (so about 940 returns), of which just 23.81% were for business use (the rest were VFR, other leisure, shopping, public sector).
I can't imagine the proportion has risen sharply....
TA
In the first year of operation, the route generated 1,879 new trips (so about 940 returns), of which just 23.81% were for business use (the rest were VFR, other leisure, shopping, public sector).
I can't imagine the proportion has risen sharply....
TA
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Macdo, the 2008 Monitoring Report for the Welsh Assembly Government
http://wales.gov.uk/docs/det/publica...airservice.pdf
All the passengers for one week were asked to fill in a survey on board the aircraft, 211 responded
14% Government or Local Government
20% Other Public Sector
29% Private Sector Employer
37% Personal Business, Education, Shopping, VFR and Tourism
Twin is starting a different topic which is the additional trips generated.
None of this indicates that this has potential as a Commercial Service, it cannot survive without a public subsidy. Although some passengers travelling for business reasons will pay a commercial fare, other more price sensitive passengers either wouldn't travel or would travel by other means. The point I was making was that the service doesn't rely on an additional hidden subsidy from Government employees being directed to use it.
http://wales.gov.uk/docs/det/publica...airservice.pdf
All the passengers for one week were asked to fill in a survey on board the aircraft, 211 responded
14% Government or Local Government
20% Other Public Sector
29% Private Sector Employer
37% Personal Business, Education, Shopping, VFR and Tourism
Twin is starting a different topic which is the additional trips generated.
None of this indicates that this has potential as a Commercial Service, it cannot survive without a public subsidy. Although some passengers travelling for business reasons will pay a commercial fare, other more price sensitive passengers either wouldn't travel or would travel by other means. The point I was making was that the service doesn't rely on an additional hidden subsidy from Government employees being directed to use it.
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Fair play you've got some supporting statistics there, but you can't get away from the lunacy of having a subsidised service on which, 33% of the traffic is also paid for by the government. To add insult to injury, the service employs foreign pilots on a foreign aircraft.
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Macdo, the appointment of Manx2 streched EU regulations to the absolute limit because Manx2 doesn't meet the definition of a European Air Carrier but FLM Aviation certainly does. We don't know the terms of the three way contract between Manx2, FLM and the Welsh Government but the Welsh Government is confident that it is entirely legal. Given the circumstances surrounding the Cork incident I would rather the Government had kept within the spirit of the PSO regulations rather than allow a ticket selling intermediary to become involved.
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
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Absolutely on the money, Runway, with regard to the appointment of Manx2. The law is simply that in the event of failure of an incumbent PSO operator (Highland, in this case), a new operator can be appointed to maintain continuous service (rather than through the whole tender process again) until the original contract renewal date. The hard condition in there is the condition to use an EU carrier; how then this was awarded to M2 beggars belief.
I think we're going to see some clarification on the status of companies like M2 in the wake of Cork. I got abuse on another thread some months ago when I noted that the whole point of the AOC system was being perverted by such arrangements, and was told I was being pointlessly pedantic. Sadly, my darkest fears were proved correct.
TA
I think we're going to see some clarification on the status of companies like M2 in the wake of Cork. I got abuse on another thread some months ago when I noted that the whole point of the AOC system was being perverted by such arrangements, and was told I was being pointlessly pedantic. Sadly, my darkest fears were proved correct.
TA
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I don't find any problem with operators who don't hold AOC's YET and clearly state a single carrier working on their behalf so long as the carrier has an intention to become an AOC operator in the future.
M2 clearly doesn't have that intention and that's the difference.
M2 clearly doesn't have that intention and that's the difference.
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I am sure that i read an article somewhere that Assembly members were encouraged not use alternative methods of transport other than air travel to meat environment targets.
I'm sure this coincides by the launch of the Gerallt Gymro rails service and now the 2nd service which has been introduced.
I certainly do not see Assembly members regularly using this flight as they used to in the beginning.
And just to be pedantic the route is now operated on a Dornier 228 and not a Jetstream 31 however a Jetstream 31 of Links Air to cover for scheduled maintenance every once in a while.
I'm sure this coincides by the launch of the Gerallt Gymro rails service and now the 2nd service which has been introduced.
I certainly do not see Assembly members regularly using this flight as they used to in the beginning.
And just to be pedantic the route is now operated on a Dornier 228 and not a Jetstream 31 however a Jetstream 31 of Links Air to cover for scheduled maintenance every once in a while.
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Really the issue is not of who uses the service but the fact that every passenger irrspective of the fare paid is being subsidised by the Welsh tax payer. I believe and no doubt TA will confirm to the tune of £50 per sector per pax.
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
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In the first year, the subsidy was £191 per pax carried. Breaking that down to just the new traffic - i.e., traffic generated that is in excess of traffic that would have driven or used the train, the subsidy in first year was £1,437 per head.
Best of all is the subsidy based on the Assembly's own targets. The route was established to allow business people to travel. In the first year, that means the subsidy against that objective was - wait for it - just over £6,000 per head.
And people wonder why I have always opposed it...
TA
Best of all is the subsidy based on the Assembly's own targets. The route was established to allow business people to travel. In the first year, that means the subsidy against that objective was - wait for it - just over £6,000 per head.
And people wonder why I have always opposed it...
TA
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PSO Routes
Whilst PSO routes by their very nature are loss making/not viable business offerings they are however essential services. Like them or loathe them. Rather than degrading the only route that exists in Wales which would not be there had a decent motorway or railway between north and south existed we should market it and support it and the more that use it the less it will need by way of subsidy. Scotland has numerous PSO routes, as does Ireland, both are nations with far better infrustructure than Wales yet I do not see any criticism of these routes on these forums. We need a little perspective here and a lot more support.
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
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I could spend half an hour explaining why this is a misuse of the PSO process. To boil it down to one sentence, a PSO route has to make a fundamental difference to the capacity on the route; this route doesn't, since in capacity terms, there is a valid and useful train service.
This route will ALWAYS be massively over subsidised; even if all the seats are filled, the yields will need to be WAY above what the market will bear.
I am not anti-PSO, and I never had been. But this route is a clear abuse of the PSO process, and should be culled. Bad PSO creates bad routes, and this is a bad PSO.
TA
This route will ALWAYS be massively over subsidised; even if all the seats are filled, the yields will need to be WAY above what the market will bear.
I am not anti-PSO, and I never had been. But this route is a clear abuse of the PSO process, and should be culled. Bad PSO creates bad routes, and this is a bad PSO.
TA
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When looking at alternative modes of travel for Holyhead to Cardiff, it is important to look at not only the alternatives but also the time taken by the alternatives. The usual criteria to look at with air services is whether the alternative can be undertaken in less than three hours, in this instance the fastest train service takes 4hours 17minutes. To get a three hour train service would take an investment in excess of £100 million and probably ten years in the planning and execution. The air service was set up with a small investment in comparison and in a much shorter time scale. It all depends on whether you think all parts of the country should have fast access to the capital or whether you think that those living in the north should pay a penalty for choosing to live so far away.
Scourge of Bad Airline Management!
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I merely choose to judge the route against the criteria laid down for it in the original plan. At the end of the first year, the WG's own audit report noted that as a direct result of the route "one business was considering opening an office in North Wales".
One.
Considering.
Not bad for all that money.
This is a route which is patently not sustainable on any commercial basis. Which saves relatively little time when the journey from Valley to Holyhead, and from Cardiff to CWL, plus check in times, is considered.
Which has failed to meet the objectives set down for it.
Which has cost the Welsh taxpayer a crazy amount of money for the benefits generated.
Which has diverted funds away from more worthy transport projects, particularly rail improvements.
PSO should be used to connect isolated communities to ensure non-duplication of essential services. Spending all that money so that the good people of Ynys Mon can get to John Lewis is NOT a good PSO.
TA
One.
Considering.
Not bad for all that money.
This is a route which is patently not sustainable on any commercial basis. Which saves relatively little time when the journey from Valley to Holyhead, and from Cardiff to CWL, plus check in times, is considered.
Which has failed to meet the objectives set down for it.
Which has cost the Welsh taxpayer a crazy amount of money for the benefits generated.
Which has diverted funds away from more worthy transport projects, particularly rail improvements.
PSO should be used to connect isolated communities to ensure non-duplication of essential services. Spending all that money so that the good people of Ynys Mon can get to John Lewis is NOT a good PSO.
TA
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TA has a point:
From Cardiff Central to CWL the X91 bus takes 31mins whilst the X45 bus takes 51mins, so an average of 41mins, the bus schedules won't be coordinated to coincide with 'puddle jumper' schedules so, let's say, 2hrs from departing Cardiff to off blocks from CWL.
Then a 1hr 05min flight then, let's be optimistic, 15mins to disembark, collect bags and clear airport.
The bus from RAF Valley to Holyhead runs once each hour and with a journey time of 30mins and departs Valley some 10 or 20 minutes past each hour so there's going to be a circa 30min wait for the bus.
So:
2.00 Cardiff City to off blocks CWL
1.05 Flight Schedule
0.15 Disembarking
0.30 Standing at bus stop in p1ssing rain
0.30 Bus Schedule Valley to Holyhead
4.20 Total
That's a mere 30 minutes faster than the train, some bright spark really stretched their imagination dreaming this one up!
From Cardiff Central to CWL the X91 bus takes 31mins whilst the X45 bus takes 51mins, so an average of 41mins, the bus schedules won't be coordinated to coincide with 'puddle jumper' schedules so, let's say, 2hrs from departing Cardiff to off blocks from CWL.
Then a 1hr 05min flight then, let's be optimistic, 15mins to disembark, collect bags and clear airport.
The bus from RAF Valley to Holyhead runs once each hour and with a journey time of 30mins and departs Valley some 10 or 20 minutes past each hour so there's going to be a circa 30min wait for the bus.
So:
2.00 Cardiff City to off blocks CWL
1.05 Flight Schedule
0.15 Disembarking
0.30 Standing at bus stop in p1ssing rain
0.30 Bus Schedule Valley to Holyhead
4.20 Total
That's a mere 30 minutes faster than the train, some bright spark really stretched their imagination dreaming this one up!
Another question about this PSO service is "Who would want to access Cardiff from Anglesey?"
A business wants to be near its clients. A business in North Wales probably looks to NW England for clients rather than South Wales.
I don't imagine there are very many potential tourists wanting to get to Cardiff from Anglesey or to Anglesey from Cardiff, who wouldn't be better off using car or train.
The only likely people wanting to travel from Anglesey to the seat of "government" in Wales are either politicians or government/public sector employees.
This route is a political gesture, and an extremely crude one at that. I don't think Anglesey residents would consider themselves "isolated", they have the A55 and Holyhead railway to connect with the real world (a place that Cardiff's politicians don't seem to inhabit).
A business wants to be near its clients. A business in North Wales probably looks to NW England for clients rather than South Wales.
I don't imagine there are very many potential tourists wanting to get to Cardiff from Anglesey or to Anglesey from Cardiff, who wouldn't be better off using car or train.
The only likely people wanting to travel from Anglesey to the seat of "government" in Wales are either politicians or government/public sector employees.
This route is a political gesture, and an extremely crude one at that. I don't think Anglesey residents would consider themselves "isolated", they have the A55 and Holyhead railway to connect with the real world (a place that Cardiff's politicians don't seem to inhabit
).
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Phileas, very few users of the Cardiff/Anglesey service use public transport mainly because for day return passengers the restrictive nature of the opening hours at RAF Valley makes for a shortened day particularly when travelling north/south. For that reason a lot of passengers are either met by colleagues/friends in cars or get a taxi.