Monarch -2
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Lease? Who mentioned leasing them? The family have paid hard cash for them 
Why wouldn't they fit into the charter market?? Infact its quite the opposite - high density pax with low operating costs = accountants dream!
Why wouldn't they fit into the charter market?? Infact its quite the opposite - high density pax with low operating costs = accountants dream!
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Chigden Sangwich - Err well considering the 787 is the replacement for the 757/767 I would say it fits in very well to the charter market. The 787 is a similar size to the 767 and A330 which is the charter airlines chosen work horse for long haul.
Monarch needs replacement long haul aircraft and the shareholding family have bought 6 x 787-8 at a list price of US$900 million, they have purchase rights on another 4.
Monarch needs replacement long haul aircraft and the shareholding family have bought 6 x 787-8 at a list price of US$900 million, they have purchase rights on another 4.
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'They' also bought between 4 and 6 (can't remember the exact number) 767-300's soon after they were launched but they never appeared in MON colours.
MON already have their longhaul fleet and if you study the consolidation of the big two UK charter airlines and their longhaul fleet replacements there is no need for extra longhaul capacity in the UK charter market.
Saying that 6 787's are coming in to replace the clapped out 757's and A300's in the shorthaul market where realistic capacity at the moment is 180-190 size is commercial suicide, the figures just won't stack up as the 787's will be costing about $650-$700k a month EACH more than an A320/B738.
MON already have their longhaul fleet and if you study the consolidation of the big two UK charter airlines and their longhaul fleet replacements there is no need for extra longhaul capacity in the UK charter market.
Saying that 6 787's are coming in to replace the clapped out 757's and A300's in the shorthaul market where realistic capacity at the moment is 180-190 size is commercial suicide, the figures just won't stack up as the 787's will be costing about $650-$700k a month EACH more than an A320/B738.
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The 787's wouldn't be great in this current market but as with all recessions, they end!
The 787 will be perfect for short/mid & long haul.
Chidken : get your facts right. One of your posts says $1m and another says $650k etc Where are your figures coming from??? Monarch and "the family" are very secretive about financial figures of the airline so no one really knows what position they are in.
Dont for get the amount of MOD charters MON does and contracts for other airlines & tour operators eg : Air mediterranee & African safari
The 787 will be perfect for short/mid & long haul.
Chidken : get your facts right. One of your posts says $1m and another says $650k etc Where are your figures coming from??? Monarch and "the family" are very secretive about financial figures of the airline so no one really knows what position they are in.
Dont for get the amount of MOD charters MON does and contracts for other airlines & tour operators eg : Air mediterranee & African safari
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321-200
I agree with one thing in your post '787's wouldn't be great in this climate'.
The 787 is the perfect 'longhaul' aircraft as cost benefits are achieved over long distances due to fuel savings, I'm sure this is how Boeing originally marketed the aircraft.
With regard to facts I suggest you re-read my posts as I make reference to lease costs being $1m a month verses that of an A320/738 meaning that they will be about $650k a month more! 787's when launched were being offered at $1-$1.2m a month to lease so my figures are generous!
With regard to a 'few' MOD charters here and there it may have escaped you that the RAF A330 fleet is due on line in the next 3 years. The initial papers (MOD source) state that of the 12 aircraft to be delivered, 9 will be in permanent use and cover 98% (yes 98%) of the UK's troop AND air refuelling requirements leaving the other 3 aircraft to pick up the remaining 2%, so forget any of that business in the civil arena!
With regard to the Air Med lease, can you really see ANY airline leasing in a brand new shiny 787 at 4 times the rate that you can lease a 767 for? I think not!
I agree with one thing in your post '787's wouldn't be great in this climate'.
The 787 is the perfect 'longhaul' aircraft as cost benefits are achieved over long distances due to fuel savings, I'm sure this is how Boeing originally marketed the aircraft.
With regard to facts I suggest you re-read my posts as I make reference to lease costs being $1m a month verses that of an A320/738 meaning that they will be about $650k a month more! 787's when launched were being offered at $1-$1.2m a month to lease so my figures are generous!
With regard to a 'few' MOD charters here and there it may have escaped you that the RAF A330 fleet is due on line in the next 3 years. The initial papers (MOD source) state that of the 12 aircraft to be delivered, 9 will be in permanent use and cover 98% (yes 98%) of the UK's troop AND air refuelling requirements leaving the other 3 aircraft to pick up the remaining 2%, so forget any of that business in the civil arena!
With regard to the Air Med lease, can you really see ANY airline leasing in a brand new shiny 787 at 4 times the rate that you can lease a 767 for? I think not!
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Didnt mean to get you angry chidken.
I understand that the MOD will have their own fleet but MON also do Dutch MOD flights and alot of ad-hocs. Ad-hocs are big money just look at Titan. MON will also be looking at ZB long haul with the bigger long haul fleet. The 787's would probably do them if they happen and the 330's do the charter long haul work.
I hear that the lease rates would be around the $1m mark for the 787's when appear on the market.
I understand that 6 x 787's dont fit in with Monarchs business model currently but i'm sure there will be many changes ahead. Maybe the new Chairman will shake things up!
I understand that the MOD will have their own fleet but MON also do Dutch MOD flights and alot of ad-hocs. Ad-hocs are big money just look at Titan. MON will also be looking at ZB long haul with the bigger long haul fleet. The 787's would probably do them if they happen and the 330's do the charter long haul work.
I hear that the lease rates would be around the $1m mark for the 787's when appear on the market.
I understand that 6 x 787's dont fit in with Monarchs business model currently but i'm sure there will be many changes ahead. Maybe the new Chairman will shake things up!
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Chidken Sangwich
Having flown with the RAF chief test pilot (MOD Source) for their A330 tanker program recently, I know that your information is wrong.... They're only going to have 4 aircraft in permanent use and the other 8 will be flown by civilian operators with the RAF base paint underneath and can be withdrawn from comercial service at any time!! So I think Monarch still have a very decent outlook when it comes to MOD flying.. And also as A321-200 has mentioned for other MOD's....
Having flown with the RAF chief test pilot (MOD Source) for their A330 tanker program recently, I know that your information is wrong.... They're only going to have 4 aircraft in permanent use and the other 8 will be flown by civilian operators with the RAF base paint underneath and can be withdrawn from comercial service at any time!! So I think Monarch still have a very decent outlook when it comes to MOD flying.. And also as A321-200 has mentioned for other MOD's....
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Direct VTB
Having flown with the RAF chief test pilot (MOD Source) for their A330 tanker program recently, I know that your information is wrong.... They're only going to have 4 aircraft in permanent use and the other 8 will be flown by civilian operators with the RAF base paint underneath and can be withdrawn from comercial service at any time!! So I think Monarch still have a very decent outlook when it comes to MOD flying..
Can he explain how four FSTA will replace 14 VC10/tri*?
As the UK is paying handsomely for this Gold Plated solution over 27 years, they are going to damn well ensure its utilised fully, that includes ALL charter lift going on these AC as long as it meets qualifying criteria, unless Air Tanker want to turn it down, which would even mean tasks that used to operate on RAF C130s would now travel in style, thats the way the contract has been written and thats what we've signed up for.
say goodbye to your current 'lucrative' work, which always ends up being won by the lowest common denominator anyway.
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Don't forget about those 2 A330 beasts. They will still be operating in MON colours once (if) the 787's arrive. Thats the beauty of MON. Even though its an accountants nightmare, they will still have a FLEXIBLE fleet. The 330's will possibly replace the 300's leaving the 787's to operate to new and existing long haul destinations.
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All this speculation, it will happen when it happens.
Monarchs older fleets will be replaced (running/fuel cost will force this), how and where the new aircraft are used will be determined by market forces and management at the time.
MOD work will come and go with quite a few of the 330's leased out with a recall clause to civil operators, who will no doubt be asked to crew them in the support role if and when required.
Air Tanker will be flying their tanking patterns and crewing some forward ops such as the Falklands and higher risk destinations with a dedicated fleet.
Both Civil and Military ops are and will still have some severe budget constraints and with fuel costs only likely to rise it won't get easier for anyone.
Thats my take on it.
Monarchs older fleets will be replaced (running/fuel cost will force this), how and where the new aircraft are used will be determined by market forces and management at the time.
MOD work will come and go with quite a few of the 330's leased out with a recall clause to civil operators, who will no doubt be asked to crew them in the support role if and when required.
Air Tanker will be flying their tanking patterns and crewing some forward ops such as the Falklands and higher risk destinations with a dedicated fleet.
Both Civil and Military ops are and will still have some severe budget constraints and with fuel costs only likely to rise it won't get easier for anyone.
Thats my take on it.
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A321-200
Firstly an apology, not sure how the 'angry' smiley crept in.
Ad-hoc's in the past used to be big money, but sadly not anymore as quite correctly pointed out by 'Nantucket' above. Titan is a unique product propped up by their Post Office contracts on most aircraft so you cannot draw comparison to normal charter ad-hoc's.
ZB long haul, now that would be interesting, following in EZY and RYR's footsteps...
and I agree will be very interesting to see the new Chairman's proposals for those 787's (should they ever arrive) as you quite rightly mention.
Direct VTB
Sorry that I am wrong,
1 x Cyprus schedule
1 x Falklands Airbridge
1 x QRA Falklands
2 x North Sea Tow Line
2 x Overseas Ops
2 x Ad-hoc
so you are quite correct that only 4 will be used by the RAF in permanent tasks as you can see from the above (my numbers were from someone that actually wrote the requirement, not the 'tail wagging the dog' from the flight deck).
Nantucket - spot on!
Firstly an apology, not sure how the 'angry' smiley crept in.
Ad-hoc's in the past used to be big money, but sadly not anymore as quite correctly pointed out by 'Nantucket' above. Titan is a unique product propped up by their Post Office contracts on most aircraft so you cannot draw comparison to normal charter ad-hoc's.
ZB long haul, now that would be interesting, following in EZY and RYR's footsteps...
and I agree will be very interesting to see the new Chairman's proposals for those 787's (should they ever arrive) as you quite rightly mention.Direct VTB
Sorry that I am wrong,
1 x Cyprus schedule
1 x Falklands Airbridge
1 x QRA Falklands
2 x North Sea Tow Line
2 x Overseas Ops
2 x Ad-hoc
so you are quite correct that only 4 will be used by the RAF in permanent tasks as you can see from the above (my numbers were from someone that actually wrote the requirement, not the 'tail wagging the dog' from the flight deck).
Nantucket - spot on!
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Chidken wrote
What’s that then?? 2 X A330’s a 767 with the A300 occasionally operating.
The 767 is going, the 4 X A300 need replacing sooner rather than later, which leaves only 2 A330’s.
MON has the A320/1 for that short haul market. MON also has a big market to medium haul destinations. The A320/1 dont have the performance on these routes. MON use the 757 with 228 seats and the A300 with 361 seats on those MH routes.
The 787-8 is a medium / long haul aircraft with a 210-250 capacity (no doubt MON will have the higher figure) That is only 22 seats more than the 757 and 111 seats less than the A300 – MON will be able to fill the 787 easily with the reduction in capacity from the A300.
With all the delays to the 787 program and the later than expected delivery dates I would say the timing will be spot on for MON.
MONs fleet is old, the excellent MAEL keep them up and running but the hole of the LH/MH fleet - apart from 2 A330’s needs replacing. MON has always had flexibility within their fleet the 787 gives that flexibility.
MON already have their longhaul fleet.
The 767 is going, the 4 X A300 need replacing sooner rather than later, which leaves only 2 A330’s.
realistic capacity at the moment is 180-190
The 787-8 is a medium / long haul aircraft with a 210-250 capacity (no doubt MON will have the higher figure) That is only 22 seats more than the 757 and 111 seats less than the A300 – MON will be able to fill the 787 easily with the reduction in capacity from the A300.
787s wouldn’t be great in this climate.
MONs fleet is old, the excellent MAEL keep them up and running but the hole of the LH/MH fleet - apart from 2 A330’s needs replacing. MON has always had flexibility within their fleet the 787 gives that flexibility.
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Does anyone have an update on the expected delivery of their B787's.
Prior to the last Boeing delay,the delivery of their first aircraft had slipped to Spring 2013 (from Nov 2010).
Prior to the last Boeing delay,the delivery of their first aircraft had slipped to Spring 2013 (from Nov 2010).
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I didnt know monarch were owned by one family, they must be incedibly rich if they can afford to splash out 900 million on new planes, is it normal for airlines to actually buy there own planes as i thought they usually leased them
Financing 787s
All that's been paid at present is a deposit to retain build slots. When the time comes to pay up, the company will decide how to finance them. There are various options:
- borrow money from a bank or similar institution
- use any retained profits within the business (unlikely)
- sell the aircraft to a leasing company and lease them back
- ditto with a bank
- set up a company jointly owned with a finance provider which will buy the aircraft and lease them to Monarch
It's unlikely anyone from Monarch will turn up with a wheelbarrowfull of used notes
- borrow money from a bank or similar institution
- use any retained profits within the business (unlikely)
- sell the aircraft to a leasing company and lease them back
- ditto with a bank
- set up a company jointly owned with a finance provider which will buy the aircraft and lease them to Monarch
It's unlikely anyone from Monarch will turn up with a wheelbarrowfull of used notes