MANCHESTER - 7
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Manchester
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Snow & diversions
Posted on another site is the main reason why no diversions being accepted.
LOW STOCKS OF DE-ICING FLUID
The Airport only has enough to maintain its own services, should the weather not improve. This may be seen as good management in the circumstances, but how the Airport got into this situation, when other airports have plenty of stocks is not.
LOW STOCKS OF DE-ICING FLUID
The Airport only has enough to maintain its own services, should the weather not improve. This may be seen as good management in the circumstances, but how the Airport got into this situation, when other airports have plenty of stocks is not.
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Im amazed companies such as aviance, swissport etc actually manage to recruit and retain people the pay and conditions are dire, your far better off on the check out at aldi, in fact whole industry seems gets away with paying peanuts, in general the only people who seem to be well rewarded are pilots, licensed engineers, and ATC ,i know these people are highly qualified but the gap between those groups and the rest appears very wide
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If everyone is cutting back, how come BHX managed to handle 30+ diverts OK, a few days ago ?
The airport are not really in control anymore, there are too many other companies who's lack of resources are having a detrimental effect on the overall efficiency of the airport. Where will it end ?
I think when companies take over handling and concessions within the airport, there should be exacting standards and levels of service imposed on them, maybe with a financial penalty when they dont deliver ?
Manchester consistantly wins travel awards so it must be doing something right 90% of the time but see what happens when you let the guard down !
I understand that Gatwick are having much worse problems, is it right that BAA LHR took away a load of snow clearing equipment just prior to the sell off, or is that a wicked rumour
"LOW STOCKS OF DE-ICING FLUID"
Is that aircraft or runway de-ice
The airport are not really in control anymore, there are too many other companies who's lack of resources are having a detrimental effect on the overall efficiency of the airport. Where will it end ?
I think when companies take over handling and concessions within the airport, there should be exacting standards and levels of service imposed on them, maybe with a financial penalty when they dont deliver ?
Manchester consistantly wins travel awards so it must be doing something right 90% of the time but see what happens when you let the guard down !
I understand that Gatwick are having much worse problems, is it right that BAA LHR took away a load of snow clearing equipment just prior to the sell off, or is that a wicked rumour
"LOW STOCKS OF DE-ICING FLUID"
Is that aircraft or runway de-ice
Folks ... I don't think de-icing stocks play any part in decisions on diversions.
If the runway/taxiways are open you can accept diversions - if they're not you can't.
Diversions use the same taxiways & runway as the planned movements.
You don't use more or less de-icing fluid - you use what's needed to ensure the surface is clear & servicable.
The number of movements is actually irrelevent - although personally I think more movements is better ..... all that engine heat must help surely....
ps .... I'm afraid much of the rumors about running out of de-icing stocks seem to come about from adding 2 +2 and getting 6 and 7/8.....
Someone asks someone where the de-ice rig has gone and is told it's run out ... rumor starts ....
Had they been told ... it's used up all it's 12,000 litres and gone off to re-fill they may not have jumped to the wrong conclusion.
That's not to say stocks may get low at times, but as with anything you need regular supplies if your using a lot.
Same story with the granules ... "run out" usually means more are needed to be brought airside from stores and the time consuming job of going around filling all the yellow bins done - guess what the volunteer firemen were doing yesterday .... thanks guys
That's not to say that stocks may not get low or that the world stays happy if supppliers suddenly start running short or have delivery problems.
Seems to be a peculiarly British trait to want to hear how it's all going wrong.
God luck .. and lets hope it's still all smiles on Monday
If the runway/taxiways are open you can accept diversions - if they're not you can't.
Diversions use the same taxiways & runway as the planned movements.
You don't use more or less de-icing fluid - you use what's needed to ensure the surface is clear & servicable.
The number of movements is actually irrelevent - although personally I think more movements is better ..... all that engine heat must help surely....
ps .... I'm afraid much of the rumors about running out of de-icing stocks seem to come about from adding 2 +2 and getting 6 and 7/8.....
Someone asks someone where the de-ice rig has gone and is told it's run out ... rumor starts ....
Had they been told ... it's used up all it's 12,000 litres and gone off to re-fill they may not have jumped to the wrong conclusion.
That's not to say stocks may get low at times, but as with anything you need regular supplies if your using a lot.
Same story with the granules ... "run out" usually means more are needed to be brought airside from stores and the time consuming job of going around filling all the yellow bins done - guess what the volunteer firemen were doing yesterday .... thanks guys
That's not to say that stocks may not get low or that the world stays happy if supppliers suddenly start running short or have delivery problems.
Seems to be a peculiarly British trait to want to hear how it's all going wrong.
God luck .. and lets hope it's still all smiles on Monday
Last edited by 42psi; 9th Jan 2010 at 15:42.
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Dread to think how much de-icer has been used over the last few weeks and when
look back met office predicted a warm wet winter therefore the companies plan their spend on that, it`s like supermarkets who ask for a long range weather forcast to plan their buying for things like BBQ and what ever in summer. It can go spectacularly wrong if you don`t get the right info and can cost a lot of money
I was told yesterday that one of the councils in this area had a large supply of grit and was then told wasn`t going to be a bad winter sold quite a bit to another and this has now come back and given them a very large bite on the bum.
Ian B
look back met office predicted a warm wet winter therefore the companies plan their spend on that, it`s like supermarkets who ask for a long range weather forcast to plan their buying for things like BBQ and what ever in summer. It can go spectacularly wrong if you don`t get the right info and can cost a lot of money
I was told yesterday that one of the councils in this area had a large supply of grit and was then told wasn`t going to be a bad winter sold quite a bit to another and this has now come back and given them a very large bite on the bum.
Ian B
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Sorry 42psi but I have to disagree in so far as it's no good accepting diversions if you have insufficient de-icing material to allow them to depart later in the day. You just end up with stands blocked by aircraft that can't go anywhere because the aircraft themselves can't be de-iced.
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Dread to think how much de-icer has been used over the last few weeks and when
look back met office predicted a warm wet winter therefore the companies plan their spend on that, it`s like supermarkets who ask for a long range weather forcast to plan their buying for things like BBQ and what ever in summer. It can go spectacularly wrong if you don`t get the right info and can cost a lot of money
I was told yesterday that one of the councils in this area had a large supply of grit and was then told wasn`t going to be a bad winter sold quite a bit to another and this has now come back and given them a very large bite on the bum.
Ian B
look back met office predicted a warm wet winter therefore the companies plan their spend on that, it`s like supermarkets who ask for a long range weather forcast to plan their buying for things like BBQ and what ever in summer. It can go spectacularly wrong if you don`t get the right info and can cost a lot of money
I was told yesterday that one of the councils in this area had a large supply of grit and was then told wasn`t going to be a bad winter sold quite a bit to another and this has now come back and given them a very large bite on the bum.
Ian B
Sorry 42psi but I have to disagree in so far as it's no good accepting diversions if you have insufficient de-icing material to allow them to depart later in the day. You just end up with stands blocked by aircraft that can't go anywhere because the aircraft themselves can't be de-iced.
Sorry Andy .... I guess I guess I should have made it clearer...
I'm talking about the airfield ... runway(s), taxiways etc.
A/C de-ice is down to the handling agents who carry out that function.
I have no idea how what the situation is with a/c anti-ice fluids.
But if that were true it might explain why there's apparently no appetite from the handling agents for diversions.
There is annother interesting side debate which could follow on from this.
Is the highly competitive handling environment a positive or negative influence in arriving at these situations?
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Snow & diversions
The low stocks are of anti-icing fluid for runway, taxiway & stands. These are the Airports responsibility. That is why no snow clearing was taking place earlier in the day as stated by MAN777 in his post on the subject, and only a limited number of taxiways/runway exits are available.
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Simon Chowder,
In relation to your post there is a big pay gap between Engineers, Pilots & ATC to dispatchers/handlers/ tug drivers check in staff etc etc etc.
Theres is a bloody good reason for this. When you have spent thousands on becoming a pilot, years becoming an atco or sat over 12 exams to become an engineer, where any 1 little mistake by any of these people can cause death then its hardly surprising there is such a gulf in payscales...........
In relation to your post there is a big pay gap between Engineers, Pilots & ATC to dispatchers/handlers/ tug drivers check in staff etc etc etc.
Theres is a bloody good reason for this. When you have spent thousands on becoming a pilot, years becoming an atco or sat over 12 exams to become an engineer, where any 1 little mistake by any of these people can cause death then its hardly surprising there is such a gulf in payscales...........
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Theres is a bloody good reason for this. When you have spent thousands on becoming a pilot, years becoming an atco or sat over 12 exams to become an engineer, where any 1 little mistake by any of these people can cause death then its hardly surprising there is such a gulf in payscales...........
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Load planning and producing load sheets are areas Im not too familiar with but my understanding is the handling agent staff do it and hand it to the captain for his approval. Please do correct me if I am wrong.......
Also if the document is overlooked by the pilot then isnt he or she who is certyfing the document by signing and accepting it??
A responsible job but how long is the training to be able to carry out such jobs? A mech for an airline will be on not too much more than a dispatcher and yet has to do some real crap jobs, after a 4 year apprenticeship on less than 15k
I have mechs who work under me on shift and some not all, do not realise the pressure as a LAE, either on a routine A check or during/after a defect when everybody is looking at you to fix it yesterday....... Yes we do sit around and drink alot of tea, but very few people see the work we actually do.
At the end of the day if you start paying the lower paid staff more with not as much responsability as pilots/atcos/laes we will want more money too..... Its life
Also if the document is overlooked by the pilot then isnt he or she who is certyfing the document by signing and accepting it??
A responsible job but how long is the training to be able to carry out such jobs? A mech for an airline will be on not too much more than a dispatcher and yet has to do some real crap jobs, after a 4 year apprenticeship on less than 15k
I have mechs who work under me on shift and some not all, do not realise the pressure as a LAE, either on a routine A check or during/after a defect when everybody is looking at you to fix it yesterday....... Yes we do sit around and drink alot of tea, but very few people see the work we actually do.
At the end of the day if you start paying the lower paid staff more with not as much responsability as pilots/atcos/laes we will want more money too..... Its life
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Wind yer neck in magoo, pilots / licensed engineers/ ATC are highly skilled people who carry a lot of responsibilty and deserve every penny they earn however there also plenty of are other groups in aviation who also do demanding and very often very responsible tasks but for whom the industry appears to think they deserve little more than the minimim wage thats all im saying .
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Perhaps MAN is being very cautious with which taxyways it opens, just read Nurembourg has had 2 accidents this week with aircraft slipping off the taxyways at slow speed which in both cases caused the closing of the airport for several hours
and a lost of work to recover aircraft
Ian
and a lost of work to recover aircraft
Ian
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Just a point to add to this discussion and to point out that 42psi has made some very good posts.
A/C de-icing fluid also l am told is in short supply and not only at MAN.
Maybe the handling agents who have to accept the diversion, might be saying yes we will handle you but you will not get de-iced.
The handling agents keeping what stock they have to cover their scheduled commitments.
I as an airline l would be well p***ed off if you turned round and told me that l can't de-ice your a/c because l had been de-icing every Tom Dick and Harry the last few days.
A/C de-icing fluid also l am told is in short supply and not only at MAN.
Maybe the handling agents who have to accept the diversion, might be saying yes we will handle you but you will not get de-iced.
The handling agents keeping what stock they have to cover their scheduled commitments.
I as an airline l would be well p***ed off if you turned round and told me that l can't de-ice your a/c because l had been de-icing every Tom Dick and Harry the last few days.
I Have Control
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Profiteering
21000 litres to de-ice a widebody at MAN. Unnecessary but highly profitable. Investigation is underway for excessive administration of de-icing fluids at MAN in the past 4 days.The whole matter stinks.
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Long haul network Man
The really amazing thing is that it has taken MAN 10 years to realise this!
Did they think all these passengers really wantedto go to FRA,AMS,CDG,LHR for holidays!
Or did they think they might be connecting to other flights? perhaps not.
Penny
X
Did they think all these passengers really wantedto go to FRA,AMS,CDG,LHR for holidays!
Or did they think they might be connecting to other flights? perhaps not.
Penny
X
