MANCHESTER - 7
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Couple of points.
How does the RYR withdrawal at Man stack in with EMA which after all is a MAG company ?
The charges at both airports must be at a commercial rate and therefore must be similar ?
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Of more pressing importance on the day that this was announced was yet another closure of the runway. A suggestion on another thread indicated that this was due to the concrete breaking up, something which appears to be happening at the moment at alarmingly regular intervals.
How does the RYR withdrawal at Man stack in with EMA which after all is a MAG company ?
The charges at both airports must be at a commercial rate and therefore must be similar ?
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Of more pressing importance on the day that this was announced was yet another closure of the runway. A suggestion on another thread indicated that this was due to the concrete breaking up, something which appears to be happening at the moment at alarmingly regular intervals.
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"Manchester will still be there when the other airports have run out of money "
...Hate to state the obvious but on the face of it the evidence suggests Manchester appears to be skint already.....
Whole place looks at though its being run on a shoestring at the minute !
...Hate to state the obvious but on the face of it the evidence suggests Manchester appears to be skint already.....
Whole place looks at though its being run on a shoestring at the minute !
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Pilots and cabin crew won't really be affected or uprooted by Ryanair's withdrawl as all services were operated by non-based aircraft. The previous few days' posturing does raise the question though whether the proposed additional flights being offered to MAN would have tied in with the creation of a base there instead of LBA? The extra flights would have taken the weekly total up to around the 90 mark (compared to c.150pwk ex-LPL) and to me that could have justified four based aircraft...but now we shall never know...
The "loss" of Ryanair can only help the avoidance of dilution of other existing services & thus make them more sustainable, so I have no problem with them fliting elsewhere.
Of more immediate concern is the state of 23R at the moment & the disruption to flights.
Does anyone know how many aircraft diverted out last Friday morning & this Monday afternoon? Has there been any statement by MAG as to what has happened & what is being done about it? Or as BAGSO says...are they "skint" already?
Of more immediate concern is the state of 23R at the moment & the disruption to flights.
Does anyone know how many aircraft diverted out last Friday morning & this Monday afternoon? Has there been any statement by MAG as to what has happened & what is being done about it? Or as BAGSO says...are they "skint" already?
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hi guys,
just a quick question here, albeit in relation to the current topic of FR.
we know that FR were wanting the fees reduced / eliminated for using the airport and have now more or less withdrawn. however what fees are payable if an aircraft was 'diverted' to the iarport? do they have an industry agreed fee, or is it something that is negotiated by individual airlines, or does it depend on what the airfield operators decide and there is no negotiation? the reason i am asking is just in case any of the LBA flights get diverted to MAN - will MO be stung in the pocket?
just a quick question here, albeit in relation to the current topic of FR.
we know that FR were wanting the fees reduced / eliminated for using the airport and have now more or less withdrawn. however what fees are payable if an aircraft was 'diverted' to the iarport? do they have an industry agreed fee, or is it something that is negotiated by individual airlines, or does it depend on what the airfield operators decide and there is no negotiation? the reason i am asking is just in case any of the LBA flights get diverted to MAN - will MO be stung in the pocket?
I would expect LPL would be the alternate to Leeds & vice-versa for obvious reasons, I think a divert to MAN post Oct 1st would be last resort. However,as they still operate a MAN-DUB route, whatever charges pervey to that service would I expect, apply to a diversion.
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The "loss" of Ryanair can only help the avoidance of dilution of other existing services & thus make them more sustainable, so I have no problem with them fliting elsewhere.
FR make their money by taking the profit out of their suppliers/staff pockets and not by adding value themselves. That they offer real value to their customers is questionable in my opinion and I certainly wont be hoofing it over to LBA just to Fly with Ryanair. Manchester Airport has refused to give them a competitive edge over their rivals and so now they run off to an airport with less competition.
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Ryanair starting Liverpool to Bremen thrice weekly from 2nd October (an ex Manchester route)and a Liverpool to Agadir service will commence on 29th October, not sure of frequency on latter route
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the more the news is spread the more customers we get good old mol also Liverpool Agadir to commence 29 October 
Must finde Ametyst2s other posts to add Agadir to them can you help TSR2
Must finde Ametyst2s other posts to add Agadir to them can you help TSR2
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You Liverpool mob have your own thread to back slap each other and have orgasms on, so why keep posting on the MANCHESTER thread?
You have nothing and have added nothing to the debate on MAN with your posts.
Unless, misguidedly, you think you are rubbing noses in what you perceive is poo, by Ryanair throwing their toys out of the pram.
You have nothing and have added nothing to the debate on MAN with your posts.
Unless, misguidedly, you think you are rubbing noses in what you perceive is poo, by Ryanair throwing their toys out of the pram.
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manchester could not reduce landing charges for ryanair and not the other operators.remember the mistake when MAPLC offered to undewrite any losses when delta started the man-jfk route...result AA immediately cancelled their flights to new york.consequently no extra sevice and the airport authority was responsible for any operating losses for 12 months.just imagine if ryanair had received preferential rates.if ryanair cannot afford to operate from major airports,let them remain at the smaller airports,or those foolish enough to have relied totally on ryanair for their expansion.
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Manchester has always had a love/hate relationship with LoCos, hence I dont think the Ryanair decision was too bad for them.
Manchester used to have a 'stillbirth' concept designed to prevent other airlines using nearby airports, which they did extremely well. Its what companies do. However they missed the boat a bit by not negotiating with LoCos at an early stage. I believe they felt that it would be a passing fad, rather than what it is today. However, it is still understandable, as slots were required at peak times and they wished to protect what they had.
However, due to the changing market, Manchester, has, reluctantly encouraged LoCos. Not because they want to, but they dont wish to see their market share being whittled away any further. They still have the 'big' airport mentality however for a preference for full cost airlines and a total distain for everything outside of this is evident.
I think that LoCos are also aware of this. As if the airline industry returns to what it was (And this is no means definate due to heavy taxation) then ManPLC will drop all LoCos in an instant. They literally wouldnt care if they 'shafted' them. It works both ways.
This would not however be the situation in other Northern Airports, who need the LoCos as their bread and butter and therefore they have to look after their users in a friendlier (subservient?) manner.
Therefore put the vitriol away against Ryanair, they, just like manchester and other airports are managing their businesses to suit themselves, not us. Other airlines, even BA use 'dodgy' business acumen, albeit in a less obvious way. Flybe also use airports tactically to get what they want. Are you willing to stop using Flybe because of this? or are you prepared to accept them because they did manchester a favour and they are convenient to where you may wish to fly.
Dont forget, if it wasnt for LoCos, travel within Europe would be decimated at the moment. They have provided thousands of direct jobs, many more indirectly and boosted local tourism. Ryanair is the main player.
Those who have said 'good riddance' would probably have been the first to welcome them in the first place. Its a big world out there and there is room for many ideologies. You have a choice.
Manchester used to have a 'stillbirth' concept designed to prevent other airlines using nearby airports, which they did extremely well. Its what companies do. However they missed the boat a bit by not negotiating with LoCos at an early stage. I believe they felt that it would be a passing fad, rather than what it is today. However, it is still understandable, as slots were required at peak times and they wished to protect what they had.
However, due to the changing market, Manchester, has, reluctantly encouraged LoCos. Not because they want to, but they dont wish to see their market share being whittled away any further. They still have the 'big' airport mentality however for a preference for full cost airlines and a total distain for everything outside of this is evident.
I think that LoCos are also aware of this. As if the airline industry returns to what it was (And this is no means definate due to heavy taxation) then ManPLC will drop all LoCos in an instant. They literally wouldnt care if they 'shafted' them. It works both ways.
This would not however be the situation in other Northern Airports, who need the LoCos as their bread and butter and therefore they have to look after their users in a friendlier (subservient?) manner.
Therefore put the vitriol away against Ryanair, they, just like manchester and other airports are managing their businesses to suit themselves, not us. Other airlines, even BA use 'dodgy' business acumen, albeit in a less obvious way. Flybe also use airports tactically to get what they want. Are you willing to stop using Flybe because of this? or are you prepared to accept them because they did manchester a favour and they are convenient to where you may wish to fly.
Dont forget, if it wasnt for LoCos, travel within Europe would be decimated at the moment. They have provided thousands of direct jobs, many more indirectly and boosted local tourism. Ryanair is the main player.
Those who have said 'good riddance' would probably have been the first to welcome them in the first place. Its a big world out there and there is room for many ideologies. You have a choice.
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harbour cotter
I generally agree with your comments but
Until recently there were just as many, if not more charter flights than full cost flights and these have always been welcome.
They still have the 'big' airport mentality however for a preference for full cost airlines and a total distain for everything outside of this is evident.
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The comparisons between LIV and MAN are well made.....
Two totally different business models, Liverpool had/has nothing to lose by charging zero landing fees, they had no traffic when EZY started, so presumably their business model is "still" possibly based on that !
Zero landing fees with revenue generated from other means.....
That said I am a bit lost on the CAA guidleines who I thought laid down "minimum commercial" rates ?
Manchester had an established framework and there was no way they could simply restructure their landing fees across the board ....
....despite the current Airport Mangement being totally inept, on this point their hands were tied.
That said there were loco's who were not quite as "strident" as RYR who could perhaps have been encouraged sooner rather than later.... !
Two totally different business models, Liverpool had/has nothing to lose by charging zero landing fees, they had no traffic when EZY started, so presumably their business model is "still" possibly based on that !
Zero landing fees with revenue generated from other means.....
That said I am a bit lost on the CAA guidleines who I thought laid down "minimum commercial" rates ?
Manchester had an established framework and there was no way they could simply restructure their landing fees across the board ....
....despite the current Airport Mangement being totally inept, on this point their hands were tied.
That said there were loco's who were not quite as "strident" as RYR who could perhaps have been encouraged sooner rather than later.... !
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wonder how long before MAG management realise that there is no real scope in turning Ringway into a northern Heathrow. The long haul trafffic just isn't there in sufficient quantities and it's quite sad watching MAG managers turn their nose up at the likes of Ryanair. The market is moving from underneath them and yet they show no real culture of enterprise. They sit in their fat superanuated towers and expect the world to come to them.
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"A Good Worker is Worthy of his Hire."
Hi Harbour Cotter,
I applaud you for a thought-provoking and interesting post, but I feel that I must take issue with certain of the points which you make. Firstly, you express the point of view that "MAN has total disdain for everything outside of [Full Cost Airlines]". I have to say that I see no evidence for that at all. Could you elaborate by giving us some recent examples of this "disdain" in action? I cannot think of any. This situation with Ryanair has arisen not because they are a no-frills carrier, but because as a company they wished to avail themselves of Manchester's high-value facilities without paying a fair price (or any price?) for doing so. What reaction would you anticipate in your personal affairs if you were to ask a retailer or service provider to supply your needs free of charge? Are they wrong to politely pass up the opportunity of your valuable custom? Do they not have the right to be paid for their valuable goods, services and labour (as I am sure you expect to receive in your own profession?).
Moving on, you contend that when conditions improve "MAN will drop all LoCos in an instant". Again, I must ask you: what evidence do you have for suggesting this? I suggest that you have none, because this statement is simply not true. Any airline company which pays a fair price befitting the services which it uses is more than welcome at MAN - regardless of the market segment served by that company. EasyJet is one example of a carrier which is investing heavily at MAN with a view to future expansion. I assure you that they would not do so if they "knew" that MAN would drop them in an instant as you assert.
Next, you suggest that posters 'put away their vitriol' against Ryanair. Now hang on ... vitriol is a particularly interesting subject well worth afew hours of study! And the best place to learn? I would suggest consulting all the press releases available for viewing on the Ryanair website. They are world-class masters in the art of vitriol, and I assure you that no UK airport or poster on PPRuNe comes close to matching them in this respect. One gets the impression that they pride themselves on that fact. In seriousness, I do agree with you that vitriolic prose do not make for wholesome reading, but if there is one company which knows how to evoke emotional responses it is surely Ryanair.
Finally, I wish to comment on your suggestion that those who say "Good Riddance" to Ryanair would probably have been the first to welcome them. That is fair comment, and true in many cases. But at the time the welcome mat was laid out many (well, some!) were blissfully unaware that Ryanair would turn out to be the business partner from Hell. Now that the truth has emerged into the public domain many would say that the "good riddance" tag is entirely justified. That is not my personal position, but I do understand the thinking and anger of those who feel that way.
And here is my own position. I am genuinely disappointed that MAN's relationship with Ryanair has disintegrated, and I am in no way celebrating their exit. But having said that, I believe that the exit of Ryanair from MAN was the result of a "Hobson's Choice" situation and that the correct decision has been made by MAG. The choice MAG faced was to submit to Ryanair's unjustifiable demands for a free ride (thus undermining and infuriating all other airlines using MAN), or to decline Ryanair's proposal (and protect their business relationship with MAN's loyal airline customer base). This was an unenviable choice to face, but there was only one honourable way for MAG to respond and I applaud them for having shown the courage to do so. Remember also that as a business, MAN must protect its investments and revenue streams. A 'freebie' for one client will inevitably lead to demands for equal treatment from others. Once a company loses its ability to offset its costs with hard-earned and wholly-deserved income the slippery slope to insolvency beckons.
There is a saying which I have always felt makes alot of sense. It is this: "A good workman is worthy of his hire." It is a good philosophy, and an idea to which I wholeheartedly subscribe. Unfortunately, the Ryanair business model is totally at odds with this principle. I believe that the staff who make our airports run smoothly - often behind the scenes and unrecognised - are entirely worthy of their hire. Why should their labour be demanded for free? Are the services which they provide to be deemed valueless? Are the facilities provided by airports at considerable expense unworthy to command a reasonable fee for their use? I contend that businesses should not be expected to give away their valuable goods and services free of charge (and if they did we would soon see the demise of such businesses).
So no, I am not saying "Good Riddance, Ryanair". But I am saying, "I regret and mourn your exit, but the parting was inevitable." The world of commerce cannot function with a 'something for nothing' mentality. MAG has preserved its pricing power in the market place, and its growing reputation for dealing even-handedly with all its airline customers. The loss of Ryanair - disappointing as that undeniably is - is the sacrifice which had to be made to serve the greater good.
"A GOOD WORKER IS WORTHY OF HIS HIRE".
Regards, SHED.
I applaud you for a thought-provoking and interesting post, but I feel that I must take issue with certain of the points which you make. Firstly, you express the point of view that "MAN has total disdain for everything outside of [Full Cost Airlines]". I have to say that I see no evidence for that at all. Could you elaborate by giving us some recent examples of this "disdain" in action? I cannot think of any. This situation with Ryanair has arisen not because they are a no-frills carrier, but because as a company they wished to avail themselves of Manchester's high-value facilities without paying a fair price (or any price?) for doing so. What reaction would you anticipate in your personal affairs if you were to ask a retailer or service provider to supply your needs free of charge? Are they wrong to politely pass up the opportunity of your valuable custom? Do they not have the right to be paid for their valuable goods, services and labour (as I am sure you expect to receive in your own profession?).
Moving on, you contend that when conditions improve "MAN will drop all LoCos in an instant". Again, I must ask you: what evidence do you have for suggesting this? I suggest that you have none, because this statement is simply not true. Any airline company which pays a fair price befitting the services which it uses is more than welcome at MAN - regardless of the market segment served by that company. EasyJet is one example of a carrier which is investing heavily at MAN with a view to future expansion. I assure you that they would not do so if they "knew" that MAN would drop them in an instant as you assert.
Next, you suggest that posters 'put away their vitriol' against Ryanair. Now hang on ... vitriol is a particularly interesting subject well worth afew hours of study! And the best place to learn? I would suggest consulting all the press releases available for viewing on the Ryanair website. They are world-class masters in the art of vitriol, and I assure you that no UK airport or poster on PPRuNe comes close to matching them in this respect. One gets the impression that they pride themselves on that fact. In seriousness, I do agree with you that vitriolic prose do not make for wholesome reading, but if there is one company which knows how to evoke emotional responses it is surely Ryanair.
Finally, I wish to comment on your suggestion that those who say "Good Riddance" to Ryanair would probably have been the first to welcome them. That is fair comment, and true in many cases. But at the time the welcome mat was laid out many (well, some!) were blissfully unaware that Ryanair would turn out to be the business partner from Hell. Now that the truth has emerged into the public domain many would say that the "good riddance" tag is entirely justified. That is not my personal position, but I do understand the thinking and anger of those who feel that way.
And here is my own position. I am genuinely disappointed that MAN's relationship with Ryanair has disintegrated, and I am in no way celebrating their exit. But having said that, I believe that the exit of Ryanair from MAN was the result of a "Hobson's Choice" situation and that the correct decision has been made by MAG. The choice MAG faced was to submit to Ryanair's unjustifiable demands for a free ride (thus undermining and infuriating all other airlines using MAN), or to decline Ryanair's proposal (and protect their business relationship with MAN's loyal airline customer base). This was an unenviable choice to face, but there was only one honourable way for MAG to respond and I applaud them for having shown the courage to do so. Remember also that as a business, MAN must protect its investments and revenue streams. A 'freebie' for one client will inevitably lead to demands for equal treatment from others. Once a company loses its ability to offset its costs with hard-earned and wholly-deserved income the slippery slope to insolvency beckons.
There is a saying which I have always felt makes alot of sense. It is this: "A good workman is worthy of his hire." It is a good philosophy, and an idea to which I wholeheartedly subscribe. Unfortunately, the Ryanair business model is totally at odds with this principle. I believe that the staff who make our airports run smoothly - often behind the scenes and unrecognised - are entirely worthy of their hire. Why should their labour be demanded for free? Are the services which they provide to be deemed valueless? Are the facilities provided by airports at considerable expense unworthy to command a reasonable fee for their use? I contend that businesses should not be expected to give away their valuable goods and services free of charge (and if they did we would soon see the demise of such businesses).
So no, I am not saying "Good Riddance, Ryanair". But I am saying, "I regret and mourn your exit, but the parting was inevitable." The world of commerce cannot function with a 'something for nothing' mentality. MAG has preserved its pricing power in the market place, and its growing reputation for dealing even-handedly with all its airline customers. The loss of Ryanair - disappointing as that undeniably is - is the sacrifice which had to be made to serve the greater good.
"A GOOD WORKER IS WORTHY OF HIS HIRE".
Regards, SHED.