British Airways: risk of turbulence on Willie Walsh’s flight path

[Carnage Matey!]

LOL Carnage you never let me down.

I aim to please!

CRM wise, and door wise. I agree with you, not exactly rocket science is it?

Still mystified by this one. The extent of the interaction between FD and CC is us sitting in the front of a pretend aircraft reading from a script prepared by the SEP instructors. As far as I can see the SEP day involves no opportunity to utilise CRM skills in their true form, as opposed to the cabin crew 'CRM means you must be nice to me form'. As for doors, well some people may find them tricky but as we only open them once a year at SEP it's hardly surprising now is it. Describing that as 'appalling' is pushing it a bit don't you think?

Then why didn't they just come out with "x figure" and say "here you go this is how we came to it". Didn't happen. No one agrees to buy something or "buy into" something without knowing the cost. Why didn't BA just combat the questions with straight answers and facts and figures?

Because you know as well as I do thats not the way negotiations work. There may well have been a win-win scenario available. You'll never know because BASSA didn't negotiate. They could have walked away at the end if they didn't like what was on offer, but it was easier to just say no from the start.

I said BASSA are paid to protect their members and their T&C's, that is their role a a union. I didn't say I agreed with their methods.

How do you know they are protecting their members if you don't question their methods? If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got. Perhaps you'd be better protected if they acted smarter?

Oh the drama! I don't know, I'm no expert. It does however smack of double standards or the "pot calling the kettle black". Does it not even raise questions in your mind as to where they are coming from?

Then don't level expert criticism then fall back on the line 'I'm no expert'. Everyone else in the industry has had to take a hammering on their pensions because the numbers don't add up. I don't wish the cut on them but if the pension fund can't be funded somethings got to change. FYI I voted for the change in pension in BA because I'm a realist.

[WeLieInTheShadows]

Still mystified by this one. The extent of the interaction between FD and CC is us sitting in the front of a pretend aircraft reading from a script prepared by the SEP instructors. As far as I can see the SEP day involves no opportunity to utilise CRM skills in their true form, as opposed to the cabin crew 'CRM means you must be nice to me form'. As for doors, well some people may find them tricky but as we only open them once a year at SEP it's hardly surprising now is it. Describing that as 'appalling' is pushing it a bit don't you think?

I think you used the word appalling in your post first matey (and it's a fairly strong term), do you feel you were pushing it a bit? I'd be quite happy to back my claims up with evidence. I did also say it was both at SEP and online. You were the one who said opening a door wasn't "rocket science" but it's great to see you defending your colleagues. It is possible for cabin crew to only open a door once a year if they only work in certain positions all year round. So I guess you'll defend these individuals as well?

Because you know as well as I do thats not the way negotiations work. There may well have been a win-win scenario available. You'll never know because BASSA didn't negotiate. They could have walked away at the end if they didn't like what was on offer, but it was easier to just say no from the start

Of course I do. I would say that BA knew this was going to be a tough sell, so another approach could have been tried. If adding it all up and then dividing = big savings on admin costs then why not just be transparent and sell it like that? A win/win scenario is the best deal all round, and it could have been pretty painless. What it would have showed is the disparity between the LHR and LGW hourly rate. Then the unions would have nailed BA down to raising the LGW rate to match. Not such a win for BA after all. we'll never know now will we?

How do you know they are protecting their members if you don't question their methods? If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got. Perhaps you'd be better protected if they acted smarter?

I agree, that's why I belong to AMICUS my friend.

Then don't level expert criticism then fall back on the line 'I'm no expert'. Everyone else in the industry has had to take a hammering on their pensions because the numbers don't add up. I don't wish the cut on them but if the pension fund can't be funded somethings got to change. FYI I voted for the change in pension in BA because I'm a realist.

I don't think saying BALPA shafted it's employees makes me an "expert", just a casual observer with an opinion (to which I'm entitled). Would you say BA "shafted" it's employees by changing the pension scheme? If not what word would you use? FYI I also voted for the change in the pension scheme as I am also a realist. What I find hard to understand (as I'm sure BALPA's employees do) is BALPA's initial stance on the BA person was "no change" (wasn't it NO WAY BA?). You'd think that after having to give ground to BA that they'd at least look after their own? Were BALPA (the sensible, educated, and respected union they are) really in the dark to how bad the whole pension crisis bubble was before BA came along and told them? Or is it a case of everyone else is doing it now, so we'd better jump on the bandwagon and do it too? I guess as a member you've seen the figures so you know better than I.

Wow, never used the quote button so much.

[FlyingTom]

Just to clarify NO WAY BA was to counter BA's proposed average salary pension. That would have had a big effect on a 24 pay point scale like the pilots'.

[Tea Coffee Or Me]

Before Carnage comments on the performance of cabin crew it is worth noting that on this forum, he spends nearly all his time discussing the "appalling mistakes" of his colleagues, which usually amount to a huge loss of life and millions of $'s worth of damage.

I don't recall any cabin crew being so destructive?

As far as being a 'divine occupation', prospective pilots with elementary co-ordination and aptitude can buy themselves a career for around U$50,000 and have an ATPL within a year. It takes three years to qualify as an electrician in the UK.

Just imagine, I could pack up my career with BA tomorrow and be flying for "bottom feeders and ****house airlines" in a little over a year!

Flap33. YOu must be careful when you bring into the arena comments about cabin crew rest on a JFK flight, when your colleagues regularly take "controlled rest", even with a three man crew and bunk rest at the same time.

[Megaton]

TC or M,

Having qualified as an electrical engineer and pilot, I think you're on extremely thin ice trying to compare the difficulties of either profession unless you've trodden both paths!

And I can promise you that if takes more than $50k and "elementary co-ordination and aptitude" to become an airline pilot. Spend some time hanging around a flying school and you'll see any number of people for whom an IR is an extremely challenging accomplishment.

[Hotel Mode]

Flap33. YOu must be careful when you bring into the arena comments about cabin crew rest on a JFK flight, when your colleagues regularly take "controlled rest", even with a three man crew and bunk rest at the same time.

Why? controlled rest is specifically allowed in FCOs or the new ops manual. No requirement for cabin crew rest is discussed until it is needed for duty extension (which is way further than you think, ie not required to JNB, GRU etc)

[Hotel Mode]

You just really bring home to me the utter lack of conception that many BA crew have of what goes on behind the door. Every senior cabin crew member should have spent a sim check with us at least once. It would be eye opening. I took my wife (cabin crew training management for a charter airline) and father in law (ex BA CSD/ Cranebank SEP trainer) in a Sim recently and they both gained an insight into what actually goes on.

[Hubbly]

Hotel Mode

You comments are valid, however just reading through the body of this thread, it seems the contempt/lack of conception lies on both sides of said door!

The real fact is that in times of crises(I believe that as a company British Airways views the economic downturn as such) drastic changes can and will be made.

Holding onto that thought for a moment, it is pertinent for us ALL to realise that none of us are untouchable. As a CC member for BA, I do realise that there is a lot that can change in relation to my job and even the pay structure. I am not blinkered, change is necessary and it will happen.

CC form the largest division of the workforce for BA, so that is only logical.

It smacks of complete arrogance to think that because you have attained a particular level that you are subject to less scrutiny than others.

What may currently be the Industry benchmark, can be reduced to being an Industry norm(or worse if you look at SFLGW), for both sides of the flying community. There is always scope for more change, be it enforced, or negotiated.

We all work for a slippery employer, who is constantly seeking ways in which to enlarge its' profits, whilst curtailing costs. Unfortunately for us ALL, we fall under the cost category. To think because some of us have already made a change means that we will not be touched is naive to say the least.

It is logical for BA to look at the cost of it's Cabin crew, but don't for an instant think that this is where it will end. This Industry has too many examples of where BA may be heading, so before we all get too 'assured' of our positions, let's touch base with reality. This goes for both sides of the said door.

It is great to mull over things past, but the simple fact is, the past does not make the future.

[HZ123]

Is it not time to draw this to a close. It ill suits us all as always to be critical of others when most at BA do the minimum required, thus our T & C's. I fail to see why all these good people wish to be regaled daily with dross. What has this to with WW hard landing, whatever the outcome he will depart as we all do but he with a six figure pay off and a nice job elsewhere, there are not many reading this that can or will.

[Carnage Matey!]

Originally Posted by WeLieInTheShadows

I think you used the word appalling in your post first matey (and it's a fairly strong term), do you feel you were pushing it a bit?

Not really. When a group of crew cannot between them construct an adequate LRBL, conduct a thorough cabin search, secure a cabin adequately for a ditching or numerous other safety critical tasks I think appalling is an appropriate description.

You were the one who said opening a door wasn't "rocket science" but it's great to see you defending your colleagues. It is possible for cabin crew to only open a door once a year if they only work in certain positions all year round. So I guess you'll defend these individuals as well?

But they sit next to a door on most flights and one should reasonably expect they'd know what to do if they were required to do it, especially in a controlled environment such as SEP where they have plenty of time to plan and prepare. I won't see an engine failure from one sim to the next, or a bomb threat for example, but I'm expected to be able to handle it as well as I would in the air. Is that too much to ask of our crew?

I agree that's why I belong to AMICUS my friend.

It shows (that's a compliment!).

I don't think saying BALPA shafted it's employees makes me an "expert", just a casual observer with an opinion (to which I'm entitled). Would you say BA "shafted" it's employees by changing the pension scheme? If not what word would you use? FYI I also voted for the change in the pension scheme as I am also a realist.

I'm not sure I'd use the word shafted. If the numbers no longer add up then it's no good stamping our feet and complaining. If people have been doing some shafting then it's been successive governments. We are not alone in out pension predicaments.

What I find hard to understand (as I'm sure BALPA's employees do) is BALPA's initial stance on the BA person was "no change" (wasn't it NO WAY BA?). You'd think that after having to give ground to BA that they'd at least look after their own?

HM has already mentioned I don't think no change was ever a position of BALPA on the pensions front. The reality was that the pension was underfunded and something had to change. In an ideal world the BALPA staff would have kept their pensions the same but we live in the real world. Their deficit was 50% of BALPAs resources and growing. How do you make provision to fund an open-ended and growing commitment like that in an organisation with a modest income?

Were BALPA (the sensible, educated, and respected union they are) really in the dark to how bad the whole pension crisis bubble was before BA came along and told them?

BA didn't tell us, the pension fund actuaries did the auditing. Then we got our own actuaries to check the figures and our own accountants to check BAs figures so we could see whether BA's claims were realistic.Thats why BAs position moved so far from their original start point. It also helps that one of our reps is also a NAPS trustee, so he gets exactly the same information as BAs management trustees get.

Originally Posted by Tea Coffee or Me

Before Carnage comments on the performance of cabin crew it is worth noting that on this forum, he spends nearly all his time discussing the "appalling mistakes" of his colleagues, which usually amount to a huge loss of life and millions of $'s worth of damage.

Nearly all my time? I've not commented on any major accidents for some time, and I am always careful to avoid levelling accusations against crews, so the idea that I am discussing their 'appalling mistakes' seems to be another of your fabrications. The reason you don't recall cabin crew being destructive is because their mistakes get caught by the professionals at the front end. I can think of two incidents within our own airline that could have caused a hull loss (one nearly did) which were attributable to the poor standards of the cabin crew on the day and were mitigated by the performance of the flight crew. Can you remember what they were?

[Tea Coffee Or Me]

No Carnage, but let's remind you of some Flight Crew mistakes:

G-AWNC 747-136 mistook the outer marker for the inner. Flew down the side of a hill through a rubber plantation at KL. Flight engineer saved the day. Remember that?

Capt "Wonder Boy" Gibson. Did a "touch and go" with a 747-136 in the game park near NBO.

G-AWNO nearly hit the Penta Hotel.

The Lillongwe bouncer? 747-436.

People make mistakes.

[Carnage Matey!]

Did any of those happen in the last ten years? Why don't you quote the 707 that broke up over Mt Fuji, or the Comet accidents, or the Lancastrian that crashed in the Andes in '49? Do try to use examples which are relevant. You're going to have to try harder than a bounced landing and subsequent go around in 1997, which is the only one of your examples in the last 20 years.

[Megaton]

No mention of the numerous incidents where lives were saved by the pilots....

[marlowe]

Or the lives saved by cabin crew faced with heart attacks and other medical dramas on the other side of the door .

[Hotel Mode]

Or the lives saved by cabin crew faced with heart attacks and other medical dramas on the other side of the door

You seem to forget that we do SEP and Avmed too.

[411A]

Looks like this is an us versus them discussion.

Simple fact.
The cabin crew works in the cabin.
The FD crew works at the pointy end.
The Commander is responsible for both.

What works best?
Well, for myself personally, as the Commander, I tell the cabin chief that they are in charge in the back, and if they need my assistance, just ask.
Result?
Total co-operation is assured.

[Max Tow]

Isn't this correspondence more suited to "Jet Blast" or the playground outside Waterside? It hardly constitutes either "Rumour" or "News"!

[Tea Coffee Or Me]

Yes Max, this thread has gone slightly off topic, but Carnage wanted to know about Flight Crew mistakes. I have given him a few as a little hors-d'ouevre. There are more, but I am not going to put them up.

Back on topic. Agree very much with WLITS.

There is now a petrol price war in the UK. Oil is on the way down. This experience with high oil prices will have a lasting effect. For instance my neighbour has just ordered a Mondeo with a FlexiFuel E85 engine.

There is no need to sell ourselves short during this short oil spike. Once you give up T&C's, you will never get them back. Stand firm lads. x

[Andy_S]

There is no need to sell ourselves short during this short oil spike.

Since you can apparently see into the future, I wonder why you're so vexed about T&C's? With abilities like yours, you could make more money trading stocks and shares then you ever could as cabin crew.

[Carnage Matey!]

Originally Posted by Tea Coffe or Me

Yes Max, this thread has gone slightly off topic, but Carnage wanted to know about Flight Crew mistakes. I have given him a few as a little hors-d'ouevre. There are more, but I am not going to put them up.

I most certainly did not. You simply indulged yourself in a bit of mud-slinging when you realised your arguments were full of holes and presumably are stopping now that you've realised your smoke screen doesn't work.