Chaos at Terminal 5
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Originally Posted by crhisbl
BA is a dead firm walking. It is a relic of a day gone by and is not fit for the modern world of CAT.
Its cost base is too high, its aircraft are poor
and its staff demotivated and intent on ensuring the company has not future.
Best thing would be for it to be shut down, sell off all the slots at Heathrow and give good value to the custmers.
I used to always make the effort to support BA come hell or high water especially as a passenger but not now.
ABBA - Anything But BA
ABBA - Anything But BA
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Its cost base is too high, its aircraft are poor and its staff demotivated and intent on ensuring the company has not future.
How can you say any of these things?
Pathetic statements.
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Extremely weak interview on Sky News - WW got off very lightly as did the head of Network Rail who did the following interview.
I could have asked more testing questions and would not have been fobbed off with WW's standard replies that he always uses "Determined", "I take full responsibility" etc.etc.
http://peach.bskyb.com/redirector.mp...10308_2030.mp4
Podcast in mp4 format in the above link - full interview with WW.
I could have asked more testing questions and would not have been fobbed off with WW's standard replies that he always uses "Determined", "I take full responsibility" etc.etc.
http://peach.bskyb.com/redirector.mp...10308_2030.mp4
Podcast in mp4 format in the above link - full interview with WW.
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Future of BAA hearing
gonebutnotforgotten picked up on my post #692 and I think asked in post #776 what was the date of the Transport Ctee hearing that Stephen Nelson attended. It was 28th November 2007.
Before him the airlines had had a chance to give their opinions on poor BAA service and unresponsive management. Some of those interchanges may be worth rereading :
Q152 Chairman: In what sense, numbers of staff, the training of staff, how precisely? I must have, I think, some clear indication of what the problems are.
Dr Ellis: The numbers of staff, particularly staff who can be called upon at short notice to beef up the arrangements. In British Airways, for example, we have staff who are prepared to come into the front line when there is disruption and I think there is a need for those types of provisions to be made within BAA. Clearly, we need a more flexible arrangement in terms of the infrastructure within the terminals to be able to expand the provision of lanes and bring additional equipment into use should the need arise.
Q169 Mr Wilshire: Our witnesses are three amongst probably hundreds of thousands of people who had good reason to moan about things, particularly at Heathrow. Could you tell us something about how you have found engaging with BAA to discuss those problems and what impact you have been able to have on getting things improved?
Dr Ellis: I will take the lead on this one. Under the auspices of the CAA there has been a process called "constructive engagement" between the airlines and BAA, both at Heathrow and at Gatwick. That has led to a richer sharing of information in some areas. In some aspects of the capital programme, for example, we are doing better on those. However, we are now at a point in the regulatory process where we can see that some of the investments we felt had been agreed through the constructive engagement process are now being reviewed and rolled back when it actually comes to the crunch in terms of the triggers which are being put on those investments and the reward that would flow to BAA. So we are part-way through a process. We have yet to see whether it actually produces the goods because with constructive engagement we can only in the end determine its success when we see delivery on the ground.
Mr Langford: May I say, in terms of on the ground operationally, I believe that over the past few years BAA has actually been less responsive to operational issues. I believe we had much more coordination with BAA and with the leadership at the airport terminals to handle operational issues and forecasting problems. I believe the focus has gone away from that and I do believe there needs to be some significant improvement in those areas.
Q170 Mr Wilshire: Before Mr Nicol answers, could I ask you when you noticed that change and why you think it happened?
Mr Langford: On the first part of the question, I would say over the past few years our access to senior leadership and our regular operational coordination has certainly deteriorated. I cannot comment as to why, but a number of people have departed BAA and their successors have not re-established those operational links as we had in the past.
Q185 Mr Scott: I have a brief question for all of the witnesses. Security is paramount. The most important thing for any passenger is now their security in travelling on airlines. You have said that there are problems with queues, et cetera, at all of the airports. Can you tell me of any experiences elsewhere in the world where they have got a much more successful way of dealing with this?
Mr Nicol: What we noticed after 10 August last year was that most airports very quickly—this is within the European sphere within which easyJet operates—got back to business. Luton Airport, which is sort of broadly comparable in size to Stansted, was back operating at a similar level to previously very quickly. What we noticed was that it was only the BAA airports which we operate from, Gatwick and Stansted (Stansted in particular) where there appeared to be problems.
Mr Langford: I have to say Manchester Airport responded, again, much more quickly and much more fully, and they were able to get back to business much more easily and there is a great deal more collaboration and information-sharing in Manchester, we found, than we had in the BAA airports.
Q200 Mr Leech: Mr Langford, you had pointed out that Manchester had dealt with issues surrounding security far better than BAA. What lessons do the three of you believe could be learned from Manchester, or is Manchester just a poor comparison with the BAA airports?
Mr Langford: Strictly from my own point of view, being an operator in Manchester, we found that the reaction time was much quicker in Manchester, that there was much more engagement much more quickly, much more information was shared.
Q201 Mr Leech: What is the reason for that?
Mr Langford: Their management structure, their management point of view. They are used to operating in that manner. My manager in Manchester is very close to the operating people and the senior people at Manchester Airport, which is less true of the London airports. I spoke about security and I spoke about efficiency. The line is open at five o'clock in the morning, for example. People show up very early because they hear about the problems at Heathrow. If there are not enough lines open at 5.00 am queues start to build up. Queues then attract other queues and your whole day has a problem due to a small miscalculation at five o'clock in the morning. The people at Manchester, we found, do not make those mistakes and they are much more constant in having people available at 5.00 am, and the day runs well. At Heathrow you tend to be on the back foot
Before him the airlines had had a chance to give their opinions on poor BAA service and unresponsive management. Some of those interchanges may be worth rereading :
Q152 Chairman: In what sense, numbers of staff, the training of staff, how precisely? I must have, I think, some clear indication of what the problems are.
Dr Ellis: The numbers of staff, particularly staff who can be called upon at short notice to beef up the arrangements. In British Airways, for example, we have staff who are prepared to come into the front line when there is disruption and I think there is a need for those types of provisions to be made within BAA. Clearly, we need a more flexible arrangement in terms of the infrastructure within the terminals to be able to expand the provision of lanes and bring additional equipment into use should the need arise.
Q169 Mr Wilshire: Our witnesses are three amongst probably hundreds of thousands of people who had good reason to moan about things, particularly at Heathrow. Could you tell us something about how you have found engaging with BAA to discuss those problems and what impact you have been able to have on getting things improved?
Dr Ellis: I will take the lead on this one. Under the auspices of the CAA there has been a process called "constructive engagement" between the airlines and BAA, both at Heathrow and at Gatwick. That has led to a richer sharing of information in some areas. In some aspects of the capital programme, for example, we are doing better on those. However, we are now at a point in the regulatory process where we can see that some of the investments we felt had been agreed through the constructive engagement process are now being reviewed and rolled back when it actually comes to the crunch in terms of the triggers which are being put on those investments and the reward that would flow to BAA. So we are part-way through a process. We have yet to see whether it actually produces the goods because with constructive engagement we can only in the end determine its success when we see delivery on the ground.
Mr Langford: May I say, in terms of on the ground operationally, I believe that over the past few years BAA has actually been less responsive to operational issues. I believe we had much more coordination with BAA and with the leadership at the airport terminals to handle operational issues and forecasting problems. I believe the focus has gone away from that and I do believe there needs to be some significant improvement in those areas.
Q170 Mr Wilshire: Before Mr Nicol answers, could I ask you when you noticed that change and why you think it happened?
Mr Langford: On the first part of the question, I would say over the past few years our access to senior leadership and our regular operational coordination has certainly deteriorated. I cannot comment as to why, but a number of people have departed BAA and their successors have not re-established those operational links as we had in the past.
Q185 Mr Scott: I have a brief question for all of the witnesses. Security is paramount. The most important thing for any passenger is now their security in travelling on airlines. You have said that there are problems with queues, et cetera, at all of the airports. Can you tell me of any experiences elsewhere in the world where they have got a much more successful way of dealing with this?
Mr Nicol: What we noticed after 10 August last year was that most airports very quickly—this is within the European sphere within which easyJet operates—got back to business. Luton Airport, which is sort of broadly comparable in size to Stansted, was back operating at a similar level to previously very quickly. What we noticed was that it was only the BAA airports which we operate from, Gatwick and Stansted (Stansted in particular) where there appeared to be problems.
Mr Langford: I have to say Manchester Airport responded, again, much more quickly and much more fully, and they were able to get back to business much more easily and there is a great deal more collaboration and information-sharing in Manchester, we found, than we had in the BAA airports.
Q200 Mr Leech: Mr Langford, you had pointed out that Manchester had dealt with issues surrounding security far better than BAA. What lessons do the three of you believe could be learned from Manchester, or is Manchester just a poor comparison with the BAA airports?
Mr Langford: Strictly from my own point of view, being an operator in Manchester, we found that the reaction time was much quicker in Manchester, that there was much more engagement much more quickly, much more information was shared.
Q201 Mr Leech: What is the reason for that?
Mr Langford: Their management structure, their management point of view. They are used to operating in that manner. My manager in Manchester is very close to the operating people and the senior people at Manchester Airport, which is less true of the London airports. I spoke about security and I spoke about efficiency. The line is open at five o'clock in the morning, for example. People show up very early because they hear about the problems at Heathrow. If there are not enough lines open at 5.00 am queues start to build up. Queues then attract other queues and your whole day has a problem due to a small miscalculation at five o'clock in the morning. The people at Manchester, we found, do not make those mistakes and they are much more constant in having people available at 5.00 am, and the day runs well. At Heathrow you tend to be on the back foot
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As ex BA staff I frequent a forum for ex staff from the regions and this little nugget has been posted which sums up BA management to a tee.
"One of Willy Walshs' henchmen rang
Manchester on Thursday or Friday (i wont mention any names as i dont
want to get anyone into trouble)and asked if they could send as many
spare staff from Manchester as they possibly could down to T5 to help
out in all the chaos of T5,Err,there is no staff at Manchester ha
ha,the person was told all BA staff were made redundant last August
and this person was shocked as he didnt know,he then said he would
ring Glasgow Err there are no staff there either.Apparantly this
person couldn't believe there were no staff at the regionals as Willy
had disposed of us all.
"One of Willy Walshs' henchmen rang
Manchester on Thursday or Friday (i wont mention any names as i dont
want to get anyone into trouble)and asked if they could send as many
spare staff from Manchester as they possibly could down to T5 to help
out in all the chaos of T5,Err,there is no staff at Manchester ha
ha,the person was told all BA staff were made redundant last August
and this person was shocked as he didnt know,he then said he would
ring Glasgow Err there are no staff there either.Apparantly this
person couldn't believe there were no staff at the regionals as Willy
had disposed of us all.
What a set of morons. Can they walk and talk at the same time?
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WEE Willie interview
Willie Walsh Sky interview; my observations
When someone uses the word ‘honestly’ it generally means they are lying
WW - ‘but you know, ehhh, quite honestly, I’m bitterly disappointed that it wasn’t a success’
So what was he really thinking???? When asked about resigning states;
WW - ‘I’m more determined than I was the last time I was in here (sky studio) to make this work’
God help us if he’s more determined……
WW - ‘my position as CEO was I wasn’t going to celebrate after the first day, I I I never defined success as making it work on day one’
OK I really don't get that one Willie, it has been reported you were having a HOOLEY in Waterworld with all the special Waterwallowers. You were crowing at 6am on the news telling the world how F'in great it all was. You are factually a liar, simple as, pure blatent unadulterated fibbing. Sh1t party anyway, you couldn't even get that right, don't you know doughnuts are so fattening. Hope the Craic was good as it'll probably double as your leaving party. Did you say your goodbyes?
WW - ‘I think I said to you the last time I was in here that I would look back after the first year of operation’ ‘and say, you know, was that a success’
WHAT!!!!, what do you mean 'I think' surely your a switched on kid, surely Wee Willie you know, 'Oi Tinnk Oi said so'. You never did, you were always as 'to be sure' it;ll work on day one..... you;ve said so and promised many times... The video interviews are everywhere.
WW - ‘I have to take responsibility as the book rests with me’
What is this book resting with him? Is it the instruction manual for T5 that he won't share with anyone?
WW - ‘I thought we were ready but we clearly weren’t’
Now your getting to the real substance of the sorry affair, proper admission of lack of managerial integrity amongst your team. If you were not properly advised that the situation was so dire, whose head is going to role for effectively failing to provide you with the required foresight to call GO on T5 transfer? The truth is you are so arrogant that you couldn't help but march right on in. All the best general's in history have been satisfied to retreat if necessary, they do not see this as a weakness. All the worst generals, Gengis Khan included, let their reputation and individual arrogance cloud their decision making.
I am not saying I could do any better, not my field of expertise. I am saying that when your General displays the such poor judgement, arrogance and clearly does not have his lieutenant's working with him, it is only a matter of time before he is stripped of his stripes. Today that means resignation, sadly probably with a golden handshake.
Sorry for any typos.
When someone uses the word ‘honestly’ it generally means they are lying
WW - ‘but you know, ehhh, quite honestly, I’m bitterly disappointed that it wasn’t a success’
So what was he really thinking???? When asked about resigning states;
WW - ‘I’m more determined than I was the last time I was in here (sky studio) to make this work’
God help us if he’s more determined……
WW - ‘my position as CEO was I wasn’t going to celebrate after the first day, I I I never defined success as making it work on day one’
OK I really don't get that one Willie, it has been reported you were having a HOOLEY in Waterworld with all the special Waterwallowers. You were crowing at 6am on the news telling the world how F'in great it all was. You are factually a liar, simple as, pure blatent unadulterated fibbing. Sh1t party anyway, you couldn't even get that right, don't you know doughnuts are so fattening. Hope the Craic was good as it'll probably double as your leaving party. Did you say your goodbyes?
WW - ‘I think I said to you the last time I was in here that I would look back after the first year of operation’ ‘and say, you know, was that a success’
WHAT!!!!, what do you mean 'I think' surely your a switched on kid, surely Wee Willie you know, 'Oi Tinnk Oi said so'. You never did, you were always as 'to be sure' it;ll work on day one..... you;ve said so and promised many times... The video interviews are everywhere.
WW - ‘I have to take responsibility as the book rests with me’
What is this book resting with him? Is it the instruction manual for T5 that he won't share with anyone?
WW - ‘I thought we were ready but we clearly weren’t’
Now your getting to the real substance of the sorry affair, proper admission of lack of managerial integrity amongst your team. If you were not properly advised that the situation was so dire, whose head is going to role for effectively failing to provide you with the required foresight to call GO on T5 transfer? The truth is you are so arrogant that you couldn't help but march right on in. All the best general's in history have been satisfied to retreat if necessary, they do not see this as a weakness. All the worst generals, Gengis Khan included, let their reputation and individual arrogance cloud their decision making.
I am not saying I could do any better, not my field of expertise. I am saying that when your General displays the such poor judgement, arrogance and clearly does not have his lieutenant's working with him, it is only a matter of time before he is stripped of his stripes. Today that means resignation, sadly probably with a golden handshake.
Sorry for any typos.
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Just to add...
T1 and T4 ops normal......
Airline website shows PVG,IAD,LAX and JFK x 2 canx.
EWR just added to list....
It will be interesting to see how the T4 to T5 switch happons in July 2008...
T1 and T4 ops normal......
Airline website shows PVG,IAD,LAX and JFK x 2 canx.
EWR just added to list....
It will be interesting to see how the T4 to T5 switch happons in July 2008...
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BA Engineering.........
How about taking a day off...
But.... BBC2 has just stated 28K of baggs still floating about in T5.
Am sure T5 will be ok when KLM/AF take it over......
How about taking a day off...
But.... BBC2 has just stated 28K of baggs still floating about in T5.
Am sure T5 will be ok when KLM/AF take it over......
Paxing All Over The World
chrisbl
My word but you do talk some rubbish!! In the past 20 years it is the staff who have consistently made travelling with BA a pleasure. I have always enjoyed travelling with BA on their lovely a/c which have always been clean and serviceable.
The reason that I have used them less than others is because of the mgmt's Dirty Tricks on VS. The mgmt were at fault then and the evidence is that they are at fault now.
As to whether the airline has a future, that depends on many things, mainly the City. We will not know the answer for another few months.
... aircraft are poor and its staff demotivated and intent on ensuring the company has not future.
The reason that I have used them less than others is because of the mgmt's Dirty Tricks on VS. The mgmt were at fault then and the evidence is that they are at fault now.
As to whether the airline has a future, that depends on many things, mainly the City. We will not know the answer for another few months.
No staff at Manchester or Glasgow...
Maybe that 'number withheld' call I missed today was a cry from the south.
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Day off
Joetom,
Sorry mate, I can't I have this problem, I'm a dedicated sort, you know very quiet normally, until something really bugs me, pushes me over the edge, then BOOM..... it all comes out and I stay committed till the bitter end.
I like to think of my self as a RAMBO character, he displayed and uncanny committment to the cause, a little OVER THE TOP at times but always won through in the end. The sort of bloke you'd like to be friends with as if you get on the wrong side, God help you.
Anyway Joe or Tom have I offended you in anyway? I hope my postings have merely been reflective of the massive balls up that T5 is...
I will not rest until heads roll from the leadership team, till they lay off our esteemed pilot colleagues. Anyway I do most of it in worktime, so relax BA are paying for the bad press... In more ways than one.....
And I love your posts, they are a little bit more moderate than mine but still in synch with my polerised views
Sorry mate, I can't I have this problem, I'm a dedicated sort, you know very quiet normally, until something really bugs me, pushes me over the edge, then BOOM..... it all comes out and I stay committed till the bitter end.
I like to think of my self as a RAMBO character, he displayed and uncanny committment to the cause, a little OVER THE TOP at times but always won through in the end. The sort of bloke you'd like to be friends with as if you get on the wrong side, God help you.
Anyway Joe or Tom have I offended you in anyway? I hope my postings have merely been reflective of the massive balls up that T5 is...
I will not rest until heads roll from the leadership team, till they lay off our esteemed pilot colleagues. Anyway I do most of it in worktime, so relax BA are paying for the bad press... In more ways than one.....
And I love your posts, they are a little bit more moderate than mine but still in synch with my polerised views
Last edited by BAengineering; 31st Mar 2008 at 22:55.
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slitting your stomach with a sword in japan is known as seppuku! it really would be the best thing in the circumstances. other forums are suggesting barbara cassani for the ceo role. i think it would signal a proactive stance. because god knows we need one.
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Gobonastick
GOBONASTICK QUOTE - Just what we need. Wasters with no prospects (and their thick bimbos) breeding to create half a dozen more wasters with no prospects.
Nature has a simple rule: those unable to fend for themselves, and who can't provide a meaningful contribution, die.
Our society goes against this basic survive-and-develop pattern, by pandering to these drains on society, mistakenly labelling it 'compassion'. Bollocks.
I was particularily offended by your comment regarding 'customer satisfaction' and the possible BA pilot strike. You are a tosser, neither of these issues have anything to do with customer satisfaction. T5 is a simple matter of piss poor planning and management lack of competence. (bolstered by a demoralised workforce)
The pilot issue is related to ongoing attempts by Willie et al to screw the last remaining section of BA that had managed to maintain its dignity. All other sections have rolled over or bent over for management.
Our customers, the ones that pay our wages are generally doing so because they elect to choose a quality product. The product does not arrive to the market in its quality condition through chance or management aggression. No, it arrives there throught the input of professional input. Those qualified and knowledgable Engineers that keep the 'product' fit for purpose and the pilots that utilise the 'product' to the best effect, for the benefit of our paying customers.
Customer satisfaction is not in question, BA pilots are reknowned for going the extra mile for our customers, so GOBONASTICK another waterwarbler troll, go play with the intranet!
Your earlier posting which I harvested from this site demonstrates your superior hubristic attitude. (very aligned with willie) Your facist attitude will be very welcome within the BA press department, with their censorship and obvious influence within the BBC, if your not already working there I'm sure they would let you in.
Nature has a simple rule: those unable to fend for themselves, and who can't provide a meaningful contribution, die.
Our society goes against this basic survive-and-develop pattern, by pandering to these drains on society, mistakenly labelling it 'compassion'. Bollocks.
I was particularily offended by your comment regarding 'customer satisfaction' and the possible BA pilot strike. You are a tosser, neither of these issues have anything to do with customer satisfaction. T5 is a simple matter of piss poor planning and management lack of competence. (bolstered by a demoralised workforce)
The pilot issue is related to ongoing attempts by Willie et al to screw the last remaining section of BA that had managed to maintain its dignity. All other sections have rolled over or bent over for management.
Our customers, the ones that pay our wages are generally doing so because they elect to choose a quality product. The product does not arrive to the market in its quality condition through chance or management aggression. No, it arrives there throught the input of professional input. Those qualified and knowledgable Engineers that keep the 'product' fit for purpose and the pilots that utilise the 'product' to the best effect, for the benefit of our paying customers.
Customer satisfaction is not in question, BA pilots are reknowned for going the extra mile for our customers, so GOBONASTICK another waterwarbler troll, go play with the intranet!
Your earlier posting which I harvested from this site demonstrates your superior hubristic attitude. (very aligned with willie) Your facist attitude will be very welcome within the BA press department, with their censorship and obvious influence within the BBC, if your not already working there I'm sure they would let you in.
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Crystal Ball Time
In light of the news that some Gulf State airlines are to open bases in LHR, I predict the following.
In the past, the global hubs for long-haul centred on the East coast of the USA, Europe, LHR, CDG, FRA, Asia and the Pacific rim. With the advent of the super long-range aircraft and the A380, the European hubs will be by-passed. Why stop over in LHR when you can either go direct or fly one-stop via the Gulf of Arabia? LHR will become a destination and not a transit stop, with good reason.
Transit passengers will avoid LHR if at all possible and choose to take the far superior product pairing of airline and airport for their journey in the future. The demise of LHR might be a long way off but I predict it will happen in time.
The Gulf Airlines are moving in now to poach customers to their product and once secured will drain passengers away from the established, worn-out airports to the new airports springing up all over the Gulf.
At least two terminals in LHR will close within the decade.
I'm just surprised it hasn't happened sooner.
In the past, the global hubs for long-haul centred on the East coast of the USA, Europe, LHR, CDG, FRA, Asia and the Pacific rim. With the advent of the super long-range aircraft and the A380, the European hubs will be by-passed. Why stop over in LHR when you can either go direct or fly one-stop via the Gulf of Arabia? LHR will become a destination and not a transit stop, with good reason.
Transit passengers will avoid LHR if at all possible and choose to take the far superior product pairing of airline and airport for their journey in the future. The demise of LHR might be a long way off but I predict it will happen in time.
The Gulf Airlines are moving in now to poach customers to their product and once secured will drain passengers away from the established, worn-out airports to the new airports springing up all over the Gulf.
At least two terminals in LHR will close within the decade.
I'm just surprised it hasn't happened sooner.