MANSTON -3

[DrBeauWebber]

Dear SOE, you are quoting only two of the Myths that Manston suffers from :

The market doesn't want it ...

So when did you last (ever ?) see an advert for Manston Airport by the owners ?
On a London Tube train, pointing out you would be into the air quicker via Manston Airport ?
At a Travel Agent, telling you you could fly world-wide via Manston and Schiphol Hub ?
I thought not.
The only reason I knew KLM were flying from Manston was that I drive past the airport daily and saw KLM's banner on the boundary fence.

.... it's seen as miles from anywhere.

A committed Thanet District Councillor’s opinion “I have for many years looked into how and if Manston could work and found out that It could never be a commercial airport … there isn't enough catchment area this side of Maidstone to make it viable.”
The interim report from the Airports Commission into airport capacity and connectivity in the UK. (Davies Report) :
"The Commission noted that some people living in North Kent valued the role that the Airport played in supporting regional connectivity, but noted a number of significant challenges, such as relatively poor surface transport links and a large distance from significant population, which rendered any significantly expanded role for the airport implausible."



As we can see, an uncongested dual-carriageway road runs right to Manston Airport boundary. This is the meeting-point of the A299/M2 to Central London, the A299 to Ramsgate Port and the A256/A2 to Dover Port.
And as I say, HS1 trains, 1 hour 17 min from St. Pancras International in London via Ashford International, money already in place for further speed upgrades this Autumn, money just announced for a new adjacent HS1 station (the existing one at Ramsgate is all of 3 miles away).



The crucial point is not distance, but as Sir Roger Gale stood up in Parliament, and said, time to backside on the plane. And that is where highly efficient Manston Airport (with its 30 minute KLM check-in) scores. We just have to get the message home. And as I said above, the good people of Kent are willing to pay for some of that out of their own pockets, if it gets their airport back and working.

These surface transport developments come together to favour Manston and extend its catchment area (defined as the region where Manston is the quickest airport to use) to :
a. Passengers: North beyond the 13 Category-A main-line stations in London (by road or rail) and West to the M23.
b. Perishable cargo: planes land without stacking, full loads are on their way to the M25 and the aircraft back in the air within 80 minutes. At other airports the cargoes are frequently still sitting waiting, uncooled, degrading.

This is some of our evidence, timings obtained directly from the web; these are 3D maps of Kent, with height of bars being populations, and colour being time to backside on plane :



So, Yes, SOE, I agree with you, we have to get these messages home !
cheers,
Beau

[pottwiddler]

In this day an age, smaller airports need to have many strings to their bow, Cargo, passengers, business handlers, maintenance and General Aviation. the wider the business base the more chance you have of survival. Pax or cargo alone will not work.

Location is everything too.

If only Manston was more western in it's location it would naturally attract more customers from the South East london Area, but airlines are happy making good profits out of LGW/LHR and SEN than risky bets on Manston.

[onyxcrowle]

Originally Posted by DrBeauWebber:8555254

A study for by the Airports Commission found that a new estuary airport on the Hoo Peninsula in Kent, would cause "large scale direct habitat loss" to hundreds of thousands of migrating birds.

Airports Commission sink Boris Johnson's estuary airport plans

So we ask : Why not use Manston Airport in Kent ?

The fourth longest non-military airfield south of Manchester is Manston International Airport in Kent.
It is standing idle, because the owner has just shut it, we think to build housing. The airport closure was announced on the very day government support for new air-routes was announced.
It has HS1 trains, 1hour 17min from St. Pancras International in London via Ashford International, money already in place for further speed upgrades this Autumn, money just announced for a new adjacent HS1 station (the existing one at Ramsgate is all of 3 miles away). It has dual-carriage-way roads from the heart of London to the airport boundary fence via the M2 & A299 , from Ramsgate Port via the A299 and from Dover Port via A256 & A2.
We had KLM offering 30 minutes hops to Schiphol Hub, Amsterdam, then links world-wide - but they were told to leave. Manston Airport ran so simply and well that KLM only required a 30minute check in, making it a great London airport.
Save Manston Airport group has 20,000 passionate supporters trying their hardest to get Manston Airport opened again.
Please, PLEASE, why don't people use joined up thinking, we feel for the people near Heathrow Airport and Gatwick Airport, that are faced with their houses being destroyed. Here at Manston we want these planes that are fuelling the need for new runways at other London airports.

HELP US GET MANSTON AIRPORT OPEN AGAIN, PLEASE.

The Save Manston Airport group and more information can be found at :

Web: Save Manston Airport | Working to save Kent's International Airport from closure.
www.facebook.com/groups/savemanstonairport

If you want to find out more about Manston Airport >

Arise to Protect - Save Manston Airport : https://www.facebook.com/download/pr...56369787776842

Manton Airport Kent has major travel advantages - v2b.pdf :
https://www.facebook.com/groups/6164...5012062239526/
Also see :
Facebook

If you think it is a good idea to keep Manston Airport up and running, taking some of the load off the other London airports, then please sign these petitions :

Save Manston Airport group petition :
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitio...anston-airport
Official 10 Downing Street Petition :
Vote to keep Manston Airport open - e-petitions
Others :
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitio...anston-airport

Im commenting so I can find this post later abd sign all your petitions.
One question I have which will no doubt bring being shot royally down in flames from those who seem to often jump on any idea that doesn't involve Heathrow or Manchester.
But.....
This new.Virgin Galactic operation.
They already have a spaceport in the US do the not?.
I recall reading they wanted one in the UK. But at the time I think for some reason ( n imsure someone can tell me.why) was being bandied about as being only suitable place.
So what about Manston?.
I confess I know little about galactic.
But I . assume it has the range to go intp orbit from the US and im theory land here im the UK.
Which for a tiny few would. Give a.double whammy of space flight and a.vwry quick trip to the UK.
And to my Knowledge off the top of my head Only three airports can take it.

Campbelltown macrahanish?
Elvington(former shuttle emergency strip)
And Manston.
So why not market it is Britain's spaceport.
Right on the coast
Nice long runway.
Plenty of land to build a.matching spaceport

[DrBeauWebber]

onyxcrowle :
Well we are told that Manston was listed as an emergency runway for the US Space Shuttle, so perhaps it would work. The runway is 2.75 km long, and is facing nearly due East, which is good for a space-port.

[DrBeauWebber]

EGHQ :
Well there used to be a shorter angled runway that could be re-instated, and one might be able to squeeze a secong parallel runway on the site.
But I don't think even Manston's most ardent supporter would suggest it as a Heathrow replacement, just take the pressure off for the calls for new runway building at Heathrow or Gatwick, or at the worst, just provide runway capacity for the 10/20 years it will take those runways to be built.

[Andy_S]

Originally Posted by Charley B

Brilliant posts and most eloquently put

They are indeed eloquent words; unfortunately, an airport can’t run on eloquent words…..

There is no doubt at all that local businesses found passenger services out of Manston useful. Unfortunately, there were never enough of them to make the airport commercially viable. Various airlines gave it a go, without success. The jury was still out on KLM; the MSE-AMS flights never achieved more than an average 50% loading, but let’s be generous and assume that KLM would have carried on if MSE had remained open. That’s two rotations per day. Even if that were viable for KLM, it’s nowhere near viable for the airport.

As for the rest, all the arguments about Manston’s runway length, transport links and lack of capacity at the major London airports have been doing the rounds for as long as I can remember. While I generally agree with claims made (although at risk of being picky, I would question the “4th longest runway” statement) the reality is that despite these apparent advantages, passenger airlines have been almost completely indifferent to Manston. That should tell you something….

[Charley B]

MSE was used many times as a bad weather diversion airport for aircraft from LGW and LHR...BA did most of their A380 training there..it was never given a fair chance to work..different owners things may well have been different!

[Andy_S]

Originally Posted by Charley B

..it was never given a fair chance to work..

Unfortunately, Manston Airport is (or was) a business, and no one owes it a living. It's not realistic to expect it's owners to absorb it's losses indefinitely.

[Cymmon]

Still not as long as Bruntingthorpe!

[DrBeauWebber]

Sorry for the slow replies, I had to wait for those long postings to get approval ….
pottwiddler :

In this day an age, smaller airports need to have many strings to their bow, Cargo, passengers, business handlers, maintenance and General Aviation. the wider the business base the more chance you have of survival. Pax or cargo alone will not work.

*

Full agreement with you !
RiverOak, who are interested in buyimg/running Manston Airport had a finger in the pie of getting Fort Worth Alliance Airport (AFW) up and running as a cargo / mail package hub.
"Fort Worth Alliance Airport (AFW) is the world's first 100% industrial airport designed for cargo and corporate aviation. AFW features a vast array of flight services, including air cargo, corporate and military aviation, and is the cornerstone for the nation's fastest-growing industrial complex, the Alliance Global Logistics Hub."
They say they intend to have passenger opperations as well, at Manston.
Save Manston Airport and other local support groups are 100% behind RiverOak and its attempts to buy Manston Airport - sofar rejected by the current owner, even though they meet the asking price.

[DrBeauWebber]

Andy_S :

I would question the “4th longest runway” statement

Actually I said :

The fourth longest non-military airfield south of Manchester

My data was from Wikipedia :
List of airports in the United Kingdom and the British Crown Dependencies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And the Manston page, Manston Airport - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
which (in agreement with other data) gives the length at
2,748 m 9,016 ft Asphalt/Concrete

Sort by decreasing length, delete airports listed as military, and keep those south of Manchester and I believe I am correct (unless you know otherwise) :

[DrBeauWebber]

Andy_S :

Manston Airport is (or was) a business, and no one owes it a living. It's not realistic to expect it's owners to absorb it's losses indefinitely.

Ann Gloag and Manston Skyport Ltd took over the running of the airport on 29 November 2013,
She promised to give the venture a full 2 years.
On 19 March 2014, it was announced that a 45-day consultation period into the closure of the airport had begun.
So the closure was actually announced 5 months 2 weeks 2 days after its new owner started running the airport. Was that a fair trial ?

Have recent owners have spent anything on advertising Manston Airport ? Have you ever seen an advert for Manston Airport ? On a London Tube ? In a travel agency ?
This is high-lited by a visit to the nearly city of Maidtone (40 miles from Manston), by the leader of the "Save Manston Airport" group
- the commonest response by the good people of Maidstone : "What Manston Airport ?".
This is no surprise to me - the only reason I knew that KLM had started flights to Schiphol Hub in Amsterdam, was I was driving past the airport perimeter daily, and there was a KLM banner on the fence saying flights were about to start ! I first flew in the second week, I last flew on the last day, and most flights were pretty full.

Why did the current owner announce the closure "consultation" on the very day that government support was announced for new air routes from regional airports ? Southend have already benefitted !

USA airfield operators RiverOak offered the full asking price of £7million, had it turned down, and still state : "RiverOak has developed a long term plan to own and manage Manston as an airport….". They were influential in setting up Alliance Fort Worth Airport in Texas a few years ago as a freight hub, and want to do the same for Manston : http://www.alliancetexas.com/Portals...ce_Airport.pdf

[Red Four]

Apropos post #1474:
Manston airport: TG Aviation lose High Court case against Kent Facilities Limited owned by Ann Gloag in a bid to return to the site

[DrBeauWebber]

No, they lost the temporary injunction (other side claimed it would cost them £1m), full case returns to high court "later this year".

[Andy_S]

Originally Posted by DrBeauWebber

Actually I said "The fourth longest non-military airfield south of Manchester."

Indeed, which is exactly how I interpreted it. So you have:

Heathrow (x2)
Gatwick
Stansted
East Midlands

Which would make Manston #6. I must admit I was unaware that Birmingham was longer; if true that would make Manston #7. But it's a silly argument. No one disputes that Manston has a long runway, capable of accommodating the largest aircraft, so lets not distracted by irrelevant details.

I agree with your comment "was that a fair trial" as regards Ann Gloag's takeover. As I've said before, probably no-one but Ann Gloag herself really knows if she ever had any genuine commitment to Manston as an airport, but if she did you would have thought she would have given it longer than 5 months. My earlier remark related not just to her, but to previous owners, none of whom were able to make Manston profitable. How many different owners does Manston need before the question needs to be asked as to whether the problem isn't with the ownership but the airport itself?

You ask if I've ever seen an advert for Manston on a tube train. No, but why would the airport advertise in such a manner? Manston is not a London airport, so why target a London market?

I've never heard of this government 'support' for new air routes from regional airports, but I'm pretty sure that any such support was aspirational rather than financial. Airlines will fly to and from where it suits them - i.e. where there's money to be made - rather than to and from where it suits the government.

It may be that Manston can be turned round, but to do so will require an owner with deep pockets and a great deal of patience. Infratil, who have experience of operating airports, stuck it out for 8 years but eventually gave up.

[cornishsimon]

With NQY coming in at the reduced 2.74km !


cs

[DrBeauWebber]

Andy_S :
My apologies, you are of course right, I meant to say south of Birmingham - i.e. I am considering London civilian airports only.

Manston is not a London airport, so why target a London market?

But you clearly have not looked at my earlier 3D maps of Kent, which make it clear that from any of the 12 Category A London main-line stations, by road or by rail, now you are in the air quicker via Manston than via Heathrow. So of course Manston should be considered a London airport. This is the key point that the changes in road and rail links have made - There is no point looking back 10, 20 years in history. No Manston is not now just a Kentish airport, it is a ****-hot London airport.
The last two owners made no attempt to exploit these changes as they happened.

[ANGRYBEARD]

I've read many of the post consultation threads with 'interest', there seems to be the usual two camps, the 'nothings' or 'everythings'

So after several aborted posts, now I'll throw my hat in;

I used to work at Manston, a few years ago, during flybe times, having had a keen interest all my life, even doing work experience with the R.A.F. It was an amazing place, always so close to the promised land, a great bunch of people worked there, some I'm still pleased to call friends, and I'm gutted to of watched them lose there jobs.

Manston never was, or will be a Heathrow replacement, or the answer to the south east air travel question, or even a stop gap. What it could be, is a well run, reasonable profitable business, maybe some airlines, but mainly freight, training and overhaul.

The problem with Infratil was a complete lack of investment and no foresight. They bought the place for a quick profit before the market went into downturn and spent almost nothing other than covering losses. I remember plans to double cargo ramp capacity for minimal amounts rejected, with cargo aircraft having to wait on the taxiway whilst others were unloaded, to have two aircraft being seen to at once required all the equipment transferred right across the airfield to an apron not set up for the work. The equipment was knackered then, always breaking down, the amount of time a 747 was held up because the loader broke, old equipment caught fire whilst trying to impress possible customers, any stuff that HAD to be replaced was wrongly ordered and was out of action for months whilst airport staff tried to adapt it.

Nothing was permanent, even the terminal repaint was laughed at by the decorators as the paint work was the cheapest and barely fit for purpose. Any substantial new work was funded through other means, whether the wind farm, or insurance pay out's, etc.

Despite huge cost of management being brought from Prestwick, or the board flown from NZ, no decisions ever seemed to be made, and it always seemed to be a case or putting on this public image to try and get extra funding(9 million wanted for a new station only marginally quicker than from Ramsgate, well away from helping local business' profit) Infratil never intended to make it work and probably spent more in covering losses than what basic investment would have cost waiting for a sale.

From what I have heard, the present owner had no intention of making it work either, this is all word of mouth, but I've heard of golden handshakes arranged months in advance of consultation, a lack of desire to even paper over the cracks, stats showing profitability in cargo ignored, even facilities staff being rebuked for using long life lightbulbs. I must admit though, as soon as it was bought I saw asset stripping all over it.

Riveroak didn't look any different in my book, but seem to have some experience and plans, I've been told they have agreed all equipment needs replacing anyway, so auction not an issue, maybe they'll actually invest a little, with fit for purpose buildings built for new business' to base themselves in, an actual strategy and maybe that much needed ramp space.

Basically Manston needs a plan, stop trying to get the locals on side by talk of airlines, downplaying cargo for positivity points, if the council are going to go through the process of cpo, then they need a real plan in place and money to back it guaranteed.

I would prefer it all left alone, than years of uncertainty and another false dawn bringing it down, in the mean time i wish Avman, TG, polar and other firms based at the airport the best of luck and fingers crossed for their future.

[BISH-BASH-BOSH]

You boys really dont get it do you, Manston is finished as an airport, you need to look at the much wider picture. Scottish company, scottish independance, very large housing project pooring millions into the scottish economy !!!!!

[Planespeaking]

Or building the Manston housing development for all the Scots heading south after a yes vote for independence!!