Aer Lingus - 5
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm open to persuasion about the ATR being more appropriate on thinner routes. However Ryanair use 738's on every route. I presume they're making money on some of them.
Is Aerlingus' cost base simply too high to operate successfully on short haul routes regardless of the aircraft used?
That certainly was the case in the past.
Is Aerlingus' cost base simply too high to operate successfully on short haul routes regardless of the aircraft used?
That certainly was the case in the past.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: London
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2010
Hopefully 2010 will be the year EI gets its backside into gear and start capitalising on the opportunities out there to grow and become successful. If the Management can show the employees they have a decent vision for the future of the company then they should be able to persuade all parties to accept the cuts. The amount of lost opportunities EI has missed is unbelievable. An RE deal to feed long haul via DUB makes sense to gain greater access to new markets to feed new customers. I wonder will we see a new base opened in 2010 ? Man ??? Who knows.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 332
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Playing devil's advocate...
What if:
Irish Government decides that it has had enough of being major shareholder in Lingus
A deal is done to flog the bulk of Lingus to Ryanair (including all transatlantic ops, most of the DUB/ORK/BFS/LGW European ops)
In order to preserve reasonable competition on key routes, a side-deal is done whereby Arann grows to include a larger fleet of ATRs to cover most of the existing DUB-UK regions routes (GLA, EDI, MAN, BHX, LGW) plus a cash investment which would enable Arann to bring in some E190s or something to cover key routes which might be 'handed over' from Lingus (DUB-LHR, DUB-SNN, DUB-ORK, DUB-CDG, DUB-AMS, DUB-FRA). BFS-LHR not included in this, but LHR slots transferred back for use on DUB-LHR and ORK-LHR to allow frequency increase to offset capacity reduction.
Irish Government retains a 'golden share' in Arann in return for above (but would not, thenceforth, be a fully participating investor/shareholder) and in return for up-front cash and LHR slots to kick off such a re-birth of Arann as 'flag carrier'-come-defender of competition agreement is also reached that Arann will continue to offer a given amount of frequency on key Irish domestic routes for (say) five years but that subsidy will reduce/cease.
Discuss...!
What if:
Irish Government decides that it has had enough of being major shareholder in Lingus
A deal is done to flog the bulk of Lingus to Ryanair (including all transatlantic ops, most of the DUB/ORK/BFS/LGW European ops)
In order to preserve reasonable competition on key routes, a side-deal is done whereby Arann grows to include a larger fleet of ATRs to cover most of the existing DUB-UK regions routes (GLA, EDI, MAN, BHX, LGW) plus a cash investment which would enable Arann to bring in some E190s or something to cover key routes which might be 'handed over' from Lingus (DUB-LHR, DUB-SNN, DUB-ORK, DUB-CDG, DUB-AMS, DUB-FRA). BFS-LHR not included in this, but LHR slots transferred back for use on DUB-LHR and ORK-LHR to allow frequency increase to offset capacity reduction.
Irish Government retains a 'golden share' in Arann in return for above (but would not, thenceforth, be a fully participating investor/shareholder) and in return for up-front cash and LHR slots to kick off such a re-birth of Arann as 'flag carrier'-come-defender of competition agreement is also reached that Arann will continue to offer a given amount of frequency on key Irish domestic routes for (say) five years but that subsidy will reduce/cease.
Discuss...!
globetrotter79, if FR were to get its hands on EI then EI will cease to exist. There is no strategic or operational value to FR in running EI. The value comes in killing it off and having no significant competitor in air transport into and out of Ireland. Look at MO'Ls comments regarding takeovers and mergers back on post 2335. Why would FR want to preserve the EI brand? Would Coke buy Pepsi and market it aggressively? If we are to believe MO'L, that he values the EI brand and wants to preserve it, he is wealthy enough that he can organise a buyout himself, not doing it using someone else's company. Similarly, if FR want to go long haul, it wouldn't do it with a unionised workforce such as the one in EI, it would/will start from scratch on their imposed terms.
While EI might benefit from some MO'L reality, that's not the same thing as being owned by FR. That said, personally (and I've said this before), I think FR chasing EI is a lot like Captain Ahab chasing Moby Dick .... EI tried to kill off FR in it's early days and now it's pay back time!
EI taking a stake in RE would be a good move for both (just so long as EI doesn't try to take RE over). Frist off, it would further complicate things for FR in their attempts to kill off EI by buying it and it would also provide EI with a lower cost smaller scale operation to run services on newer and lighter routes. RE would be bound into a larger operation, but so long as EI is a minority owner, it should remain relatively autonomous.
As for FR making money on thin routes, remember that much of its revenue is not just from selling the seat. They charge all those 'extras', try to flog you more once you're on the aircraft and also get 'subsidies' from the airports for delivering targeted numbers of passengers (and if you're short a few hundred pax on the target in order to get your performance bonus then you can always give the seats away free to fill up the numbers).
This isn't a FR basing mail ... Personally I admire what the company has achieved, in an equal but different way, the same can be said about RE. EI has options and I hope they survive, but IMHO, one thing is for certain, EI will not survive being owned by FR.
Happy New Year.
JAS
While EI might benefit from some MO'L reality, that's not the same thing as being owned by FR. That said, personally (and I've said this before), I think FR chasing EI is a lot like Captain Ahab chasing Moby Dick .... EI tried to kill off FR in it's early days and now it's pay back time!
EI taking a stake in RE would be a good move for both (just so long as EI doesn't try to take RE over). Frist off, it would further complicate things for FR in their attempts to kill off EI by buying it and it would also provide EI with a lower cost smaller scale operation to run services on newer and lighter routes. RE would be bound into a larger operation, but so long as EI is a minority owner, it should remain relatively autonomous.
As for FR making money on thin routes, remember that much of its revenue is not just from selling the seat. They charge all those 'extras', try to flog you more once you're on the aircraft and also get 'subsidies' from the airports for delivering targeted numbers of passengers (and if you're short a few hundred pax on the target in order to get your performance bonus then you can always give the seats away free to fill up the numbers).
This isn't a FR basing mail ... Personally I admire what the company has achieved, in an equal but different way, the same can be said about RE. EI has options and I hope they survive, but IMHO, one thing is for certain, EI will not survive being owned by FR.
Happy New Year.
JAS
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: europe
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What about Aer Lingus and Cityjet joining forces?
Cityjet have the smalller more dynamic fleet that EI require for the UK regions and have a very strong presence in london now more than paris.
tom
Cityjet have the smalller more dynamic fleet that EI require for the UK regions and have a very strong presence in london now more than paris.
tom
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Cork, Ireland
Posts: 1,625
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, go the full way and and join up all three, EI, RE and WX - now that could be all encompassing in many different kinds of routes - that might give Ducksie & Co a minor headache!
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Middle of Somewhere..
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Globetrotter79,
A good proposal but I can never see anything like it being acted upon for the simple reason that it is beyond what the DoT could comprehend. Also, should EI give up the London slots, they'd probably have to go back to BAA to avoid state aid issues with handing them to Aer Arann.
When FR mount the next bid, the government will not get overly involved in the debate as they have little to gain from it. They have demonstrated they won't get involved in Dublin Airport issues anymore in the SR Technics debacle. I wouldn't be surprised to see pressure placed on the government from some quarters to sell it's share simply to raise additional revenue in these lean times for the country.
EI's weapons in defending another bid will be competition concerns (which no doubt Ryanair placate), union concern (with the amount of problems in Ireland who'll listen and act), shareholders who may or may not be inclined to take an offer based on the awful performance of the shares (ok... O'Brien, TailWind and the Government aren't likely to sell but there may be institutional investors hacked off with getting a poor return on investment from Aer Lingus), and finally the ability of Aer Lingus management to convince the shareholders they have the ability to return the airline to profitability and deliver returns to the shareholders.
Successive management teams in Aer Lingus have failed in my opinion to date to set out a clear vision of what the airline is and where it's going in a business sense. The company and management seem to lurch from crisis to crisis with little in the way of future a planning (e.g. the board sitting down and setting out a vision of where EI should be in 5 years). This is where hopefully Mr. Muller will become a key figure. The board and the senior management team need to create and drive a vision for the airline. Failure to do this will result in the defence of Aer Lingus resting almost solely on competition concerns which is not a safe bet.
It seems to be clear that EI cannot compete with Ryanair across in Europe in terms of number of bases, routes, costs etc.. They therefore need to re-examine where they're going. They have a useful sales pitch to the public in terms of clearing U.S. customs etc. in Dublin so the obvious answer is to use Dublin as a mini-hub for flights to the US and Canada perhaps. I believe a competitive Aer Lingus could attract custom to hub through Dublin from not just the UK but also from parts of the EU if they compete on agressively on price (meaning lower operating costs) with AF/KLM/LH/BA. The next step to protect against over-reliance on the U.S. would be to develop one or two key European bases (e.g. LGW) to provide services into Europe thereby insulating the airline against shocks in the US economy.
I believe taking a stake (or even ownership on the provision it's run as a completely separate entity ala Swiss in the Lufthansa Group) in Aer Arann would help bolster EI's defence on the competition side in terms of routes into and out of Ireland but also demonstrate to shareholders that the management actually have a vision for the future which will provide a return for the shareholder.
Aer Lingus have a lot of work to do and Aer Lingus employees must accept that their terms and conditions will have to fall to remain competitive, not just against Ryanair, but also against the other majors in Europe. However, management must demonstrate to them there is a plan for the airline and the staff should be able to share in the future success of the airline through a share scheme or bonuses etc..
Now once we've solved EI's problems let move to BA's.....
Happy New Year to all and lets hope it's a more prosperous one for the entire industry.
All the best,
P2C
A good proposal but I can never see anything like it being acted upon for the simple reason that it is beyond what the DoT could comprehend. Also, should EI give up the London slots, they'd probably have to go back to BAA to avoid state aid issues with handing them to Aer Arann.
When FR mount the next bid, the government will not get overly involved in the debate as they have little to gain from it. They have demonstrated they won't get involved in Dublin Airport issues anymore in the SR Technics debacle. I wouldn't be surprised to see pressure placed on the government from some quarters to sell it's share simply to raise additional revenue in these lean times for the country.
EI's weapons in defending another bid will be competition concerns (which no doubt Ryanair placate), union concern (with the amount of problems in Ireland who'll listen and act), shareholders who may or may not be inclined to take an offer based on the awful performance of the shares (ok... O'Brien, TailWind and the Government aren't likely to sell but there may be institutional investors hacked off with getting a poor return on investment from Aer Lingus), and finally the ability of Aer Lingus management to convince the shareholders they have the ability to return the airline to profitability and deliver returns to the shareholders.
Successive management teams in Aer Lingus have failed in my opinion to date to set out a clear vision of what the airline is and where it's going in a business sense. The company and management seem to lurch from crisis to crisis with little in the way of future a planning (e.g. the board sitting down and setting out a vision of where EI should be in 5 years). This is where hopefully Mr. Muller will become a key figure. The board and the senior management team need to create and drive a vision for the airline. Failure to do this will result in the defence of Aer Lingus resting almost solely on competition concerns which is not a safe bet.
It seems to be clear that EI cannot compete with Ryanair across in Europe in terms of number of bases, routes, costs etc.. They therefore need to re-examine where they're going. They have a useful sales pitch to the public in terms of clearing U.S. customs etc. in Dublin so the obvious answer is to use Dublin as a mini-hub for flights to the US and Canada perhaps. I believe a competitive Aer Lingus could attract custom to hub through Dublin from not just the UK but also from parts of the EU if they compete on agressively on price (meaning lower operating costs) with AF/KLM/LH/BA. The next step to protect against over-reliance on the U.S. would be to develop one or two key European bases (e.g. LGW) to provide services into Europe thereby insulating the airline against shocks in the US economy.
I believe taking a stake (or even ownership on the provision it's run as a completely separate entity ala Swiss in the Lufthansa Group) in Aer Arann would help bolster EI's defence on the competition side in terms of routes into and out of Ireland but also demonstrate to shareholders that the management actually have a vision for the future which will provide a return for the shareholder.
Aer Lingus have a lot of work to do and Aer Lingus employees must accept that their terms and conditions will have to fall to remain competitive, not just against Ryanair, but also against the other majors in Europe. However, management must demonstrate to them there is a plan for the airline and the staff should be able to share in the future success of the airline through a share scheme or bonuses etc..
Now once we've solved EI's problems let move to BA's.....
Happy New Year to all and lets hope it's a more prosperous one for the entire industry.
All the best,
P2C
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Middle of Somewhere..
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi wxjedi,
An intersting proposal but can't imagine Air France would be willing to crystalise the losses on the €129 million CityJet owe them (ref. 2009 accounts). Also, CityJet seem to fit rather neatly into the Air France house by providing presumably lower cost services ex LCY and DUB than AF could do themselves.
All the best,
P2C.
An intersting proposal but can't imagine Air France would be willing to crystalise the losses on the €129 million CityJet owe them (ref. 2009 accounts). Also, CityJet seem to fit rather neatly into the Air France house by providing presumably lower cost services ex LCY and DUB than AF could do themselves.
All the best,
P2C.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,455
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EI brand name.
The Aerlingus brand name would be still a major plus in North America even if Ryanair were to take control of Aerlingus.
Many Irish Americans and Irish emigrants still flock to the flag carrier when flying home. I'm not sure if Ryanair would have the same name recognition in the US so they'd be wise to keep the Shamrock on the tails if they kept a long haul division.
Many Irish Americans and Irish emigrants still flock to the flag carrier when flying home. I'm not sure if Ryanair would have the same name recognition in the US so they'd be wise to keep the Shamrock on the tails if they kept a long haul division.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: STANSTED & MANCHESTER
Posts: 1,893
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ryanair could keep the Aer Lingus brand but only use it on its new longhaul
routes (A330's), tickets could be sold through the Ryanair website, just like Air Berlin do on there longhaul routes.
Ryanair could re-paint all the (A320's) and have them based at set Airports.
routes (A330's), tickets could be sold through the Ryanair website, just like Air Berlin do on there longhaul routes.
Ryanair could re-paint all the (A320's) and have them based at set Airports.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Ireland
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aer Lingus Dub
Another pathetic performance by Ireland's National Carrier today ... most flights inbound and outbound cancelled while other operators seemed to cope with delays only. They are a disgrace and the sooner they put themselves out of business the better !
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Depends on the roster
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think you will find that DUB was closed for the morning due to no fault of the airlines - the Airport auth failed to de-ice taxiways and aprons and this suspended ops. Departures suspended until 1030 and arrivals until 1100. All long haul flights div to SNN this morning and recovery programme initiated. As DUB is the main hub a closure of the airfield is sure to have a huge backlog to the rest of the schedule.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: North East
Age: 37
Posts: 204
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They are a disgrace and the sooner they put themselves out of business the better !
With EI being the major player at DUB, of course there were major implications on their schedules. The same happens with BA at LHR.
If flights are canceled, it means the rest of the day can be kept to schedule (ish), and the affected pax accommodated on the later flights. If the operator chooses to hold on, the whole day's rotation for each aircraft is delayed inconveniencing hundreds of people... Its a simple case of damage control.
Fuuny if you track back to last Feb when FR slated DAA for their lack of urgency in gritting and clearing the Apron, Taxiways etc it was dismissed as just FR complaining.......DAA didn't learn and get its plans in place so no surprise with same result.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
C'mon there boys, I would not consider EI to be a major player anywhere, just compare the number of EI cancellations with those of FR (major player in DUB) ... QED!
Ryanair had a few cancellations themselves and are still suffering delays just like Aer Lingus and other airlines who were also forced to divert to Shannon, Belfast and Manchester. The difference is when these things happen, Aer Lingus tend to handle their passengers in a much better way, immediately offering refunds, free flight changes. I remember back to the Dublin radar failure when Aer Lingus staff were praised for their hard work whereas Michael O'Leary said something to passengers along the lines of "you are not getting a refund, so
off", nice.
They are a disgrace and the sooner they put themselves out of business the better !
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Dublin
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ryanair had less cancelations as on the 26th Dec and 1st Jan as every year FR dont schedule any flights until late in the day maybe as late as 12. EI planned to operate a full schedule of early flights and that why they got screwed.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 1,114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would take whatever FR say with a grain of salt as well. They are not members of IATA so can make up the rules as they go along. Flights get cancelled all the time but don't show up as cancellations as they mysteriously appear as a "new" flight at a slightly different time, sometimes even on a different day.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Ireland
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Great, I'm sure 4500 people becoming unemployed is just what the Irish economy and air travel industry needs.
4,500 x 'Social Welfare Payments' is a big discount on 4,500 x 'grossly inflated semi-state salaries plus perks' ! and lets face it its all coming out of the same pot - The tax payers pocket.
