Alitalia (Merged)

[remoak]

So the last bastion of capitalism is now communist China? Is that your last hope?
How the mighty have fallen!!

No, simple one. It isn't the last bastion. It is, however, the world's fastest growing capitalist system. They worked out that socialism doesn't work and that capitalism does. A lesson you would do well to learn yourself. Don't you read the papers?

As for the second half of your post - come back when you have a reasoned argument you headcase.

Ah yes, the standard Kremin response to a statement that you can't answer. You can't defend your somewhat pathetic ranting, so you just descend to your default setting of calling people names. Hardly the hallmark of a mind at work, is it?

Or maybe you really do think that the western world has run out of "capital"? In which case your grasp of economics is as simple as your argument.

[L337]

ICE Brent crude oil price: $106

[el #]

Sincerely I'm a bit puzzled by the seriousness of replies to Krem(l)in's delirium.

Someone that claims that in six months we will be eating Rublos, like in the picture of Prince he posted, is not given any credit not even on Indymedia forums.

Kremin (no more puns on your nick) if you have clairvoyance left, please tell us where oil price will be in six months, now that can make one raise a buck or two - taking opposite position !

[el #]

ICE Brent crude oil price: $106

Probably a stale quote, as it cannot be more than $2-3 further away from nymex.

EDIT: Good commentary at: Oil prices shoot up over $25 a barrel as anxiety over US bailout weighs on dollar ? Newser

[Speevy]

Probably a stale quote, as it cannot be more than $2-3 further away from nymex

Quite suprisingly the november contract already went back to 109 $:

The November crude contract, which became the front-month contract at the end of Monday's session, settled at $109.37, up $6.62, still a very sharp gain.

Oil market needs an exorcist as well..

Speevy

[CaptKremin]

It is, however, the world's fastest growing capitalist system. They worked out that socialism doesn't work and that capitalism does.

The Chinese are polluting their country, and poisoning their babies. Sounds like Capitalism alright. But there's one big difference - where's the DEMOCRACY? Isn't that supposed to be part of the Capitalist Utopia?

Maybe you should read Deng Xiaopings views about where China is really headed:

What is socialism and what is Marxism? We were not quite clear about this in the past. Marxism attaches utmost importance to developing the productive forces. We have said that socialism is the primary stage of communism and that at the advanced stage the principle of from each according to his ability and to each according to his needs will be applied. This calls for highly developed productive forces and an overwhelming abundance of material wealth. Therefore, the fundamental task for the socialist stage is to develop the productive forces. The superiority of the socialist system is demonstrated, in the final analysis, by faster and greater development of those forces than under the capitalist system. As they develop, the people's material and cultural life will constantly improve. One of our shortcomings after the founding of the People's Republic was that we didn't pay enough attention to developing the productive forces. Socialism means eliminating poverty. Pauperism is not socialism, still less communism

So Deng agrees with you - worlds fastest growing economy, sure. But it neither fits the democratic ideals of Capitalism, nor does it have any plan to.

Capitalism - the AngloSaxon model (as its now being referred to) is D-E-A-D. GWB and Paulson finally killed it off last week.

if you have clairvoyance left, please tell us where oil price will be in six months, now that can make one raise a buck or two - taking opposite position !

I'm not much interested in the price of oil any more. Thats become a mere sideshow. All I'll say is that the USD is going down the tubes, and we'll soon see $1.60 to the euro. The price of oil will naturally rise as the dollar devalues.

The real story is the Trillion Dollar bailout of the US banks - which ain't working. The US economy is tanking before our very eyes.
Speaking of Capitalism - the poor old Chinese economy is gonna take a battering . They've got a Trillion Dollars in reserves. There's talk of them dumping 'em. Oh the fun we'll have!

[el #]

The merchant banks crashes are quite a mess, I'm the first to say. But, I'm not seeing capitalism falling any soon. It's just too strong and the masses in western countries just too well feed and tubed for wanting any shake. Just as it was 50 years ago, except it's internet, ipods and cocaine now. It also got globalized in the meanwhile, go figure. I think that sucks mainly because it's it's a systems that is strong with the weak and weak with the strong.

If, as you apparently theorize, the US is the first to be hit, I can tell you the one thing that I got to understand when living in the US, if they want something done (e.g. an economic recovery), it will be done. They will come out of recession before Europe (we will be too busy figuring out if there will be a country of Europe after all and what to do with all the newcomers).

They might even stop buying crap from China if needed, when they take a deep breath Americans are a conscientious people, able to produce, build and trade anything. To the contrary I see Europe (western at least) to much sitting on our talking asses to make a visible change. Beside, they have more resources.

Sorry if I don't hold much respect for old Deng. He got to stress the importance of production (working) eh? Well, I've got news for you, others in the world did before him.

About China dumping the dollar, for what in change exactly ? They don't really have an alternative to dollar reserves as long it is the main international currency for trade.

So all in all I'm more worried about how to spend free time when I retire in South America, than anything else. I'm optimist anyway, I fancy fernet and coca that is much cheaper than champagne, and I've some idea already on what to do.

[Stilwell]

Could a change of leadership in the US help?

Anyone, anyone?

[remoak]

el #

You are of course correct, Capt Kremin is indeed living on some other planet, presumably in a parallel universe where everything runs backwards.

To understand his name, you need to be able to remember back to dark days of the Kenny Everett Video Show. Capt Kremin was a self-absorbed and not very bright member of Star Command.

Hey, there's a coincidence...

[Finn47]

Slow Alitalia news day today, except for the leaders of CAI saying that their "Phoenix" rescue plan will not change an inch. If the unions want to sign the deal they will have to accept the same conditions that were offered last week.

[Iver]

Who want to bet Alitalia get last minute cash injection from Government? That always the case even though other airlines allowed to go bust (i.e., Sabena). I think Alitalia will find a way to stay alive and burn more Italian taxpayer cash. Just watch...

[KingCaptain]

Think that's the end of this thread, we have been to italy, discussed chinese and american politics, the concept of capitalism, communists, socialism, american finance and generally the meaning of life, anyone for another pint?

KingCap

[Blowstar]

Quoting philipat:

As I sit off the Island off the Island of Rinca (Having just had a close encounter with a Komodo) enjoying a bottle of Cloudy Bay with a freshly caught red snapper


Poor chap. All that pension money and he still can't get a real date.

[CaptKremin]

The merchant banks crashes are quite a mess, I'm the first to say. But, I'm not seeing capitalism falling any soon. It's just too strong and the masses in western countries just too well feed and tubed for wanting any shake. Just as it was 50 years ago, except it's internet, ipods and cocaine now. It also got globalized in the meanwhile, go figure. I think that sucks mainly because it's it's a systems that is strong with the weak and weak with the strong.

Capitalism is too strong?
Seriously? Is that your opinion in the midst of total economic meltdown?
Is this just your gut feeling - in spite of the facts staring you in the face? Or do you have anything better than sentimental waxing to offer as evidence of the 'strength' of the capitalist system?
I suspect not - you must be one helluv'an optimist.

If, as you apparently theorize, the US is the first to be hit, I can tell you the one thing that I got to understand when living in the US, if they want something done (e.g. an economic recovery), it will be done. They will come out of recession before Europe (we will be too busy figuring out if there will be a country of Europe after all and what to do with all the newcomers).

Yes, I know exactly what you mean - the old 'Can Do' attitude.
This was the attitude taken toward all those borrowers who had no income, and no jobs. Need a mortgage? Sure! Can Do!!
Just sign here.......

They might even stop buying crap from China if needed, when they take a deep breath Americans are a conscientious people, able to produce, build and trade anything. To the contrary I see Europe (western at least) to much sitting on our talking asses to make a visible change. Beside, they have more resources.

Huh. They'll be buying nothing from anyone, because their currency is going to sink like a rock from here on.

Sorry if I don't hold much respect for old Deng. He got to stress the importance of production (working) eh? Well, I've got news for you, others in the world did before him.

He's no hero of mine - I thought you admired his Capitalist Credentials!

About China dumping the dollar, for what in change exactly ? They don't really have an alternative to dollar reserves as long it is the main international currency for trade.

China has the power to make the yuan an alternative reserve currency in world trade by simply denominating all Chinese export in yuan. This sovereign action can be taken unilaterally at any time of China’s choosing. All the State Council has to do is to announce that all Chinese exports must be paid for in yuan, making it illegal for Chinese exporters to accept payment in other currencies. This will set off a frantic scramble by importers of Chinese goods around the world to buy yuan at the State Administration for Foreign Exchange (SAFE) making the yuan a preferred currency with ready market demand. Companies with yuan revenue no longer need to exchange yuan into dollars, as the yuan, backed by the value of Chinese exports, becomes universally accepted in trade. Members of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (Opec), who import sizable amount of Chinese goods, would accept yuan for payment for their oil.

Then there's also the Euro!!...........

So all in all I'm more worried about how to spend free time when I retire in South America, than anything else. I'm optimist anyway, I fancy fernet and coca that is much cheaper than champagne, and I've some idea already on what to do.

Well good luck to you - and all of us. We're gonna need it.
The US Senate hearing is currently balking at this 700 Billion Bailout - and now there's talk of the Credit Default Swop market being the next iceberg on the horizon. The bailout there will cost....(wait for it)....57 TRILLION Dollars!!!

Where's the money coming from?
Keep thinking happy thoughts and keep BLAMING THE UNIONS.

[el #]

Wait, he told us what's for dinner, not the dessert. Bali is not Easter Island.

Back to Alitalia, I would not bet on an 11th hour cash injection.
Consider, if all goes bust, CAI or their remix will be allowed (like anybody else), and supported (not like anyone) to quickly pick the parts needed to to operate on a smaller scale than the rescue plane, after a short time of stop. They will be allowed to hire pilots individually (they need 1500 total). Like: want to work? These are the conditions. All the others have accepted the new terms already.

Hopefully the list of hired people would be made on efficiency and track record.

I could report the reasons why pilots are not accepting yet, but I leave to do that to one of them if any so wish. It would be kind of a valuable information because you can read as many papers as you want and the straight facts are not reported.

On the arguments could be again profit sharing. CAI wants to concede 7% to employees, suppose for the sake of argument they were to concede 10%, and with good will on the second operating year they pull a profit of 400M (the same amount that are paying the company - which can revenue 4.5B yearly - imagine something that is 20 times smaller than BA). The pilots would share about one half of the bonus, so 400,000,000 / 10 / 2 / 1500 = 13,000,000 Euros, that is not a ridiculous bonus in this times.

Beside, also the employees and pilots have said to be willing to put their money in the company - a courageous commissioner could even suggest a mixed ownership formula - tell you what, even AF or LH would put perhaps a 50M, but that it would take an extraordinary person to put that together.

There is people out there willing to put money in the new Alitalia, the state only have to figure out a way to have them put into it before too much damage occours.

[el #]

Kremin, I think enough talking on the matter of economics. Since I'm also a currency issues researcher, all I can tell you is that if the yuan is among any of the 10 biggest traded pairs within 5 years, you have a fine dinner on me. That I will pay in yuans of course.

[CaptKremin]

Whatever. For a currency expert you sure like to hide your light under a bushel. There are currency experts all over the world forecasting the demise of the Mighty Dollar. Last year most would've doubted it. This week it seems more likely than not. You could be in a minority of one (and still whistling in the dark).

The anti-union rhetoric seems rather overblown in retrospect, dontcha think?

We're finally getting some real perspective on where our problems have been manufactured.

[eu01]

Chavitalia?

Venezuelan airline Aserca is believed to be making an offer for distressed Italian national flag carrier Alitalia.

Berlusconi didn't want AZ to be European. Well, he meant something else of course, but maybe Venezuelan sounds better?

Btw. CaptKremin should have lived his school years in Cuba, North Korea, GDR or Soviet Union. I wonder how it would have influenced his opinions?

[Finn47]

"Easyjet offers to fly Alitalia routes" at short notice if Alitalia collapses:

The Peninsula On-line: Qatar's leading English Daily

[peter we]

AFP: Venezuelan airline Aserca denies will make Alitalia offer

However an airline spokesman told AFP that "Mr. Hugo Santoro does not work at the company.

"The statement didn't come from here. We have no idea how the statement was distributed."