Alitalia (Merged)
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Alitalia and THE future
Dear Sirs,
I am an italian airline pilot, flying for an italian private company called Meridiana. Having read all of your posts, I'd like to say something about this issue.
I apreciate and accept every opinion because there is truth in every single opinion and we (thanks God) live in democracy, but there is something that is really missing in those opinions. I try to make myself clear.
A serious and mature analisys of the situation should not include someone's sympathy or disliking for Italy or for AZ. Of course, the airline was managed very badly and many times passengers were forced to face ridiculous situations, I'll agree with that 100%. However, when somebody tells that it's ok that AZ bankrupts and pilots HAVE to accept the new contract, well that someone is not realizing that such a shamely contract is a threat for EVERY single pilot in Italy and maybe in Europe. We do have to preserve our professionality and dignity, otherwise other company will say "hey, lets do the same here! Let's apply the same contract!" , you know what I mean?
It is already happening here: we have the best contract in Italy, but Meridiana is already trying to cancel our contracts for the new one, and this is a really bad news, because if this happens, italian pilots will be at the same level of an average clerk!
So, yes, AZ must change,finish, or whatever. But please think twice before saying that AZ pilots are doing wrong while opposing the hardest NO to the new contract. I have downloaded it, and I swear, it is the biggest shame ever.
Best regards
I am an italian airline pilot, flying for an italian private company called Meridiana. Having read all of your posts, I'd like to say something about this issue.
I apreciate and accept every opinion because there is truth in every single opinion and we (thanks God) live in democracy, but there is something that is really missing in those opinions. I try to make myself clear.
A serious and mature analisys of the situation should not include someone's sympathy or disliking for Italy or for AZ. Of course, the airline was managed very badly and many times passengers were forced to face ridiculous situations, I'll agree with that 100%. However, when somebody tells that it's ok that AZ bankrupts and pilots HAVE to accept the new contract, well that someone is not realizing that such a shamely contract is a threat for EVERY single pilot in Italy and maybe in Europe. We do have to preserve our professionality and dignity, otherwise other company will say "hey, lets do the same here! Let's apply the same contract!" , you know what I mean?
It is already happening here: we have the best contract in Italy, but Meridiana is already trying to cancel our contracts for the new one, and this is a really bad news, because if this happens, italian pilots will be at the same level of an average clerk!
So, yes, AZ must change,finish, or whatever. But please think twice before saying that AZ pilots are doing wrong while opposing the hardest NO to the new contract. I have downloaded it, and I swear, it is the biggest shame ever.
Best regards
Last edited by CptBlood; 21st Sep 2008 at 00:44.
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Flash Forward to Job interview
well that someone is not realizing that such a shamely contract is a threat for EVERY single pilot in Italy and maybe in Europe. We do have to preserve our professionality and dignity,
Unemployed Pilot: "Alitalia"
Recruiter: "Next"
One assumes the aircraft ARE maintained 
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ECA press release title:
"Italian Pilots Call for Recognition of their Unique Contribution to the Industry"
Who writes this bull****?
Why not:
"The Titanic's Captain Calls for Recognition of his Unique Contribution to the Voyage"
Who writes this bull****?
Why not:
"The Titanic's Captain Calls for Recognition of his Unique Contribution to the Voyage"
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CptBlood
I don't think the issue is just the salaries. Most people agree politics, mangement and nepotism have mainly led to this.
Most angered people here are especially upset with how Alitalia got away year after year with being bailed out, in effect subsidising the ticket price at the expense of other companie,s whom did not have this security and who had to battle Alitalia in this playing field which was anything but level.
So i guess it it percieved that the demise of Alitalia at least gets rid of one (big) unfair competitor.
At the same time, it is clear the perception of many traveller is that the service of Alitalia was about as bad as you could get. So they too are happy to see the back of the airline.
I don't think the issue is just the salaries. Most people agree politics, mangement and nepotism have mainly led to this.
Most angered people here are especially upset with how Alitalia got away year after year with being bailed out, in effect subsidising the ticket price at the expense of other companie,s whom did not have this security and who had to battle Alitalia in this playing field which was anything but level.
So i guess it it percieved that the demise of Alitalia at least gets rid of one (big) unfair competitor.
At the same time, it is clear the perception of many traveller is that the service of Alitalia was about as bad as you could get. So they too are happy to see the back of the airline.
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Pilots, pilots.....lots of other people envolved in the airline who are doing what they are suppose to do.
What I think, is that it doesn't matter what I think, but what I suppose is, most of the pilots have visions of working out of country when it fails. Big surprise as they will be in an entirely "new world". Numerous pilots will need to work immediately and take the first job offered in some exotic place like India or Vietnam. Desperation is the Worst way to get a job.
Better to take the "cuts", adjust your life to the reduced working conditions and then look for a "suitable" job somewhere else.
The "primadona" image could make them unemployable. Couple of years "on the beach" these days can mean the end of career.
Take the "cuts", so "someone" will buy them, get some stability and credibility back into their image and then look elsewhere if its not to your liking.
Much easier to get a job when current and employed than non current and unemployed.
Sat one day at an unnamed airport in Italy waiting for "shared" contract maintenance to fix my airplane while the maintenance guy was running around replacing crew meals the Alitalia crew wouldn't accept....for a 1:30 flight back to Rome or Naples or somewhere.
Kind of difficult to feel sorry for them. Kind of unlikely any credible company would consider hiring pilots with the reputation of "making their own rules".
Having worked for 2 Italian Airlines as a contract pilot my guess is that ENAC will shut them down due to non compliance and lack of documentation and if they can't pay the fuel bills, maintenance problems.
End of story.
What I think, is that it doesn't matter what I think, but what I suppose is, most of the pilots have visions of working out of country when it fails. Big surprise as they will be in an entirely "new world". Numerous pilots will need to work immediately and take the first job offered in some exotic place like India or Vietnam. Desperation is the Worst way to get a job.
Better to take the "cuts", adjust your life to the reduced working conditions and then look for a "suitable" job somewhere else.
The "primadona" image could make them unemployable. Couple of years "on the beach" these days can mean the end of career.
Take the "cuts", so "someone" will buy them, get some stability and credibility back into their image and then look elsewhere if its not to your liking.
Much easier to get a job when current and employed than non current and unemployed.
Sat one day at an unnamed airport in Italy waiting for "shared" contract maintenance to fix my airplane while the maintenance guy was running around replacing crew meals the Alitalia crew wouldn't accept....for a 1:30 flight back to Rome or Naples or somewhere.
Kind of difficult to feel sorry for them. Kind of unlikely any credible company would consider hiring pilots with the reputation of "making their own rules".
Having worked for 2 Italian Airlines as a contract pilot my guess is that ENAC will shut them down due to non compliance and lack of documentation and if they can't pay the fuel bills, maintenance problems.
End of story.
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Morte delle AZombie
What real pilots think about this situation:
Despite its spasticity, despite being used as a political football by successive Italian governments, Alitalia's unions are singularly responsible for the prevention of any rescue by Jean-Cyril Spinetta, or Wolfgang Mayrhuber. That choice was yours. Opportunity lost. If you're looking for someone to blame, try Guglielmo Epifani. I don't know what the Italian for 'Jackass' is.
Unprofitable, cynical, surly and with its head so far up its own arse, Alitalia deserves to fail, and has done for years. Burn the corpse quickly and move on. Requiem optional.
The AZ pilots union seems to get the blame for the failure of the rescue bid by the 'noble' italian investor group. The pilots union's point is that they are not to blame for the situation AZ is in, and that they therefore should not have to accept the offer with greatly reduced salaries, forced redundancies for about 900 pilots and an increased productivity requirement for the remaining lot.
Gentlemen: THIS IS NOT THE TIME TO MAKE THAT POINT. The blame game and fingerpointing is going to go on for years, and your first priority is to save your own *ss and secure a job for most of you. I totally agree with the point that it is better to look for another job while you actually have one.
I remember a piece of prose that the chairman of the main pilots union in AZ (ANPAC) wrote in the Skyteam Pilots Association newsletter about a year ago on why every effort should be made to prop up AZ. This chap managed to fill 2 pages on that subject without once mentioning financial / commercial viability. His point was basically: every country needs a flag carrier to set the standard for air travel the way it should be, in Itally it is AZ and therefore it should not be allowed to go under. If that is the general opinion amongst AZ pilots it makes perfect sense that they rejected the offer...
Welcome to the real world! The big difference between AZ and the other flagcarriers in Europe is that the others are MAKING MONEY (or at least not losing it at a rate of 2 million a day), capisce? Of course you guys were brought to this point by years of bad management and government, but again: this is not the time to prove that point. The situation at AZ is not comparable to other major carriers in Europe, so any demand to get the same salaries, terms and conditions is unrealistic.
By acting the way ANPAC did, they made it easier for the people who are really to blame to point the finger at the pilots.
Things look bleak right now for AZ, bar any rabbits that Berlusconi will pull from his hat. Good luck for you all...
Gentlemen: THIS IS NOT THE TIME TO MAKE THAT POINT. The blame game and fingerpointing is going to go on for years, and your first priority is to save your own *ss and secure a job for most of you. I totally agree with the point that it is better to look for another job while you actually have one.
I remember a piece of prose that the chairman of the main pilots union in AZ (ANPAC) wrote in the Skyteam Pilots Association newsletter about a year ago on why every effort should be made to prop up AZ. This chap managed to fill 2 pages on that subject without once mentioning financial / commercial viability. His point was basically: every country needs a flag carrier to set the standard for air travel the way it should be, in Itally it is AZ and therefore it should not be allowed to go under. If that is the general opinion amongst AZ pilots it makes perfect sense that they rejected the offer...
Welcome to the real world! The big difference between AZ and the other flagcarriers in Europe is that the others are MAKING MONEY (or at least not losing it at a rate of 2 million a day), capisce? Of course you guys were brought to this point by years of bad management and government, but again: this is not the time to prove that point. The situation at AZ is not comparable to other major carriers in Europe, so any demand to get the same salaries, terms and conditions is unrealistic.
By acting the way ANPAC did, they made it easier for the people who are really to blame to point the finger at the pilots.
Things look bleak right now for AZ, bar any rabbits that Berlusconi will pull from his hat. Good luck for you all...
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Those of us working for independent airlines will never get a fair deal until all state owned, state subsidised airlines fail and are eliminated.
Last edited by Guava Tree; 21st Sep 2008 at 10:41.
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I read this thread with interest, as a customer, the person that an airline is in business to service.
After flying well over a thousand commercial flights, with most of the airlines in Europe, I have to say that AZ have been a consistently poor to downright bad customer experience.
It doesn't really trouble me whether its the fault of the management, pilots, cabin crew or the tooth fairy, what does seem to hold true, from a passenger perspective, is that the passing of this awful outfit would cause few tears to be shed.
No one likes to think of thousands being made redundant, but the point of capitalism is that it is a meritocracy and AZ does not make the cut.
After flying well over a thousand commercial flights, with most of the airlines in Europe, I have to say that AZ have been a consistently poor to downright bad customer experience.
It doesn't really trouble me whether its the fault of the management, pilots, cabin crew or the tooth fairy, what does seem to hold true, from a passenger perspective, is that the passing of this awful outfit would cause few tears to be shed.
No one likes to think of thousands being made redundant, but the point of capitalism is that it is a meritocracy and AZ does not make the cut.
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Been through this personally and AN Flyer said it all .Approve the plan to save the airline . Fly with the new contract for a while and compare it to other carriers ,ones where you might be able to get a job if you leave Alitalia. Then, if you find the grass greener on the other side ,leave.
Remember this . ITS MUCH EASIER TO FIND A JOB WHEN YOU HAVE A JOB.
Its not very comforting being out there ,desperately searching for a job, competing with all the unemployed pilots the world has to offer, plus all of the Alitalia pilots as well. Its not an easy road!!!
So let them save the airline .At worst it will give you time to look for employment elsewhere.
VP TAA
Remember this . ITS MUCH EASIER TO FIND A JOB WHEN YOU HAVE A JOB.
Its not very comforting being out there ,desperately searching for a job, competing with all the unemployed pilots the world has to offer, plus all of the Alitalia pilots as well. Its not an easy road!!!
So let them save the airline .At worst it will give you time to look for employment elsewhere.
VP TAA
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A couple points
Some of you say they should accept and live to fight another day... but have you considered that part of this plan sees 1,000 (ONE THOUSAND) pilots fired out of 2,200 AZ and about 600 Air One? This in a ground staff-heavy airline (AZ) where "only" 2,000 of the whopping 15,000 ground staff will be let go?
Some of you say AZ hasn't made the cut as a private competitor, loses money and thus should fold; have you considered that AZ has NEVER been private, and to this day is run by the government (49% ownership, not to speak of the rest which is mainly owned by state banks with strong ties to the various politicians)? AZ should have been privatized a LONG time ago, but it was too juicy a morsel to be relinquished by the political class, which at the end of the day has to take the blame for this result.
This is not a cut-and-dried case, it is in fact quite complex, with a LOT going on behind the scenes and under the tables (in typical Italian fashion). I can personally guarantee you (having worked for them for years) that while AZ pilots may not be the most popular pilots in the industry, they do their job just as well as anyone else, and contrary to cockpit lore, compared to all other european majors they work LONGER HOURS for LESS MONEY (and don't even get me started on the crew "meals").
Don't be so quick to judge the AZ pilots in this situation... they are playing dice with their future, not yours.
Some of you say AZ hasn't made the cut as a private competitor, loses money and thus should fold; have you considered that AZ has NEVER been private, and to this day is run by the government (49% ownership, not to speak of the rest which is mainly owned by state banks with strong ties to the various politicians)? AZ should have been privatized a LONG time ago, but it was too juicy a morsel to be relinquished by the political class, which at the end of the day has to take the blame for this result.
This is not a cut-and-dried case, it is in fact quite complex, with a LOT going on behind the scenes and under the tables (in typical Italian fashion). I can personally guarantee you (having worked for them for years) that while AZ pilots may not be the most popular pilots in the industry, they do their job just as well as anyone else, and contrary to cockpit lore, compared to all other european majors they work LONGER HOURS for LESS MONEY (and don't even get me started on the crew "meals").
Don't be so quick to judge the AZ pilots in this situation... they are playing dice with their future, not yours.
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Berlusconi gives up, says:
I love Italy.
I love Alitalia.
Fluggesellschaft: Berlusconi gibt Alitalia verloren - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Nachrichten - Wirtschaft
He blames pilots and F/A for the disaster.
I love Italy.
I love Alitalia.
Fluggesellschaft: Berlusconi gibt Alitalia verloren - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Nachrichten - Wirtschaft
He blames pilots and F/A for the disaster.
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ANPAC's motivation
ANPAC refers to the "Raison d'etre" of Alitalia that all nations need a carrier to set the standards...
Given the standard set by Alitalia, I guess all italians will be relieved by her demise....
Beter no standard than an Alitalia standard
Given the standard set by Alitalia, I guess all italians will be relieved by her demise....
Beter no standard than an Alitalia standard
Last edited by vanHorck; 21st Sep 2008 at 15:25.
A story by La Repubblica says, on Tuesday the bankruptcy administrator Fantozzi will place ads in major newspapers in order to find buyers for Alitalia. Sounds like a last gasp effort. After all, the Italian government has tried to offload Alitalia for two years with no success, and the unions torpedoed even the Air France bid. No airline will buy into Alitalia now. All they have to do is wait for two more weeks at the most and then they can pick up the pieces for next to nothing - if they want them any more .
The CGIL union leader says "now itīs time for Lufthansa to take over". Can a union leader be further away from reality than him? The fat lady is about to croak and he thinks Lufthansa will save them. Simply Absurd. The Italian Way
The CGIL union leader says "now itīs time for Lufthansa to take over". Can a union leader be further away from reality than him? The fat lady is about to croak and he thinks Lufthansa will save them. Simply Absurd. The Italian Way
vanHorck:
That is not my opinion, but the opinion of ANPAC! I totally disagree with them. It is a ludicrous reason for existence for any airline.
LH
That is not my opinion, but the opinion of ANPAC! I totally disagree with them. It is a ludicrous reason for existence for any airline.
LH
Last edited by Longhitter; 21st Sep 2008 at 13:54. Reason: Typo