Alitalia (Merged)
The company is dead and some of my colleagues want to be its undertakers 
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The coordinator of the Roman pilots Giovanni Mastronunzio has just said:
We are know waiting for the offer of foreign group with proper management capabilities and financially sound.
The 6 Unions that have rejected the proposal are saying the Alitalia bankruptcy commissary can get same more time being the Italian government the major shareholder.
They are in a complete denial of the situation
Furthermore ENAC will examine on the 22nd if there are there are the prerequisites to confirm the AOC
We are know waiting for the offer of foreign group with proper management capabilities and financially sound.
The 6 Unions that have rejected the proposal are saying the Alitalia bankruptcy commissary can get same more time being the Italian government the major shareholder.
They are in a complete denial of the situation
Furthermore ENAC will examine on the 22nd if there are there are the prerequisites to confirm the AOC
Last edited by FrequentSLF; 18th Sep 2008 at 18:18.
No pilot but Italian. Just been watching news on RAI channels.......pilots + CC celebrating news of negotiations breakdown in FCO!
This beggars belief, they deserve all that will fall upon them, no sympathy at all.
Really sorry for the real workers in AZ (certainly a good majority) who will loose their job thanks to irresponsible politicised time and money wasters.
Makes one feel ashame of being Italian, hope this time there will be no bail out by govt. on taxpayers shoulders.
This beggars belief, they deserve all that will fall upon them, no sympathy at all.
Really sorry for the real workers in AZ (certainly a good majority) who will loose their job thanks to irresponsible politicised time and money wasters.
Makes one feel ashame of being Italian, hope this time there will be no bail out by govt. on taxpayers shoulders.
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AZ unions are mental - do they have any commercial knowledge at all??
it is quite amusing though - on these forums pilots are always getting moaned at for not sticking up for good t+c's, paying for type ratings blah blah and here these guys arfe standing up for themselves...but they need a reality check, if az goes under, will they be able to walk into a current job the way the market is, maybe not and if they do, do they think they will get as good a deal as CAI were offering?? i doubt it!
bad news for wannabes, i feel sorry for the employees that can see the company is rotten and corrupt but will find themselves out of a job.
Unless the unions know something we dont...another bail out?
it is quite amusing though - on these forums pilots are always getting moaned at for not sticking up for good t+c's, paying for type ratings blah blah and here these guys arfe standing up for themselves...but they need a reality check, if az goes under, will they be able to walk into a current job the way the market is, maybe not and if they do, do they think they will get as good a deal as CAI were offering?? i doubt it!
bad news for wannabes, i feel sorry for the employees that can see the company is rotten and corrupt but will find themselves out of a job.
Unless the unions know something we dont...another bail out?
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No pilot but Italian. Just been watching news on RAI channels.......pilots + CC celebrating news of negotiations breakdown in FCO!
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They have made a deal with ENI (made by Berlusconi?) this week. Maybe the Italians pay the bill with their taxes
I think AZ won't dissappear. They make new laws, negociation or something like that and it goes on and on.
I think AZ won't dissappear. They make new laws, negociation or something like that and it goes on and on.
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If they do go bust, where and who will have the fleet?
I would imagine that the 772 will be snapped up with speed, Dont know who but could BA snap them up possibly. The 763 i would imagine will go to America to either American Airlines or Delta (there always looking for more 763'S they seem to operate most of there TATL flights with 763'S), The 320/321 would imagine Air One/LH will take them, to help them expand into Italy and i would imagine that the MD88'S will totally go.
I would imagine that the 772 will be snapped up with speed, Dont know who but could BA snap them up possibly. The 763 i would imagine will go to America to either American Airlines or Delta (there always looking for more 763'S they seem to operate most of there TATL flights with 763'S), The 320/321 would imagine Air One/LH will take them, to help them expand into Italy and i would imagine that the MD88'S will totally go.
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extravegent working practices
how stupid and arrogant are the employees that have secured the demise of "their" carrier because of their greed
Quite frankly I have very little sympathy for them
I will not comment on AZ pilots' two main unions decision to not ratify the dismal contract foisted upon them with a terse "sign or be fired", but I would ask you all to reflect upon the following:
How does an 85 hour monthly limit, (90 on longhaul), 900 a year, working for about 30 to 40% less pay than other flag carriers (LH AF-KL IB) lead to the financial failure of an airline?
How is it possible for an airline to have had an 80%-plus average load factor on a number of long haul destinations (JNB RIO BKK HKG SYD etc etc) which it then proceeded to give up traffic rights on, claiming that even with all seats filled they were losing money? Where was this money going to, considering it certainly wasn't lining pilots' or flight attendants' pockets?
How is it possible for an airline to have had something like 6 CEOs over the past 8 years, each of which presided over numerous financially disastrous decisions (not hedging fuel, grounding MD11s, off to Malpensa we go, no hang on, everyone back to Fiumicino now, not developing long haul and betting everything on short haul where airline was far more exposed to cut-throat competition)? How is it possible that each of these CEOs was receiving about 3 MILLION euro a year to "manage" the airline further into debt, which is more than Mayrhuber (LH) and Spinetta (AF) make COMBINED (not to mention generous handshakes when replaced by next CEO, hey-ho off to another government post you go)?
Above all, and here I speak only to those of you who are airline pilots such as myself and whom I would like to consider as my colleagues: why do you fall for the old saw about an airline's pilots being the cause of its problems? Have you not seen this tactic time and again whenever an airline through mismanagement or poor foresight finds itself in dire straights? The media war, the continuous digs at "over-pampered over-paid primadonnas who fly once a month to go to some exotic destination with several willing hosties"...
There is definitely room for improvement in many of AZ's employees' attitudes, but they are NOT the main problem. If the aircraft doesn't get from A to B safely, blame me. But if the airline fails spectacularly to make profits for decades, please blame those responsible: management.
A (very depressed) Italian airline pilot
Please, please, please tell me that finally this dinosauric company will die?
This is NOT a bad day if it does, just economic rationalism being applied to the benefit of the Italian taxpayer, the travelling public, and those who (like me) do business in Italy.
Not even Italian FC and CC benefit from AZ's existence - as Alitalia is very inefficiently run, there will be fewer jobs available than there would be in a market with efficient players. In the long run everyone - bar only those with corrupt self-interests - will be better off. Short term pain for long-term gain.
Yes, the unions are mental beyond belief - I like the "undertaker" comment from an obviously more switched-on one! But then who knows - maybe their gamble on a last-minute bail out will pay off - but it really is looking doubtful now.
So - as someone before wrote before - Arrivederci Alitalia. You most certainly won't be missed.
This is NOT a bad day if it does, just economic rationalism being applied to the benefit of the Italian taxpayer, the travelling public, and those who (like me) do business in Italy.
Not even Italian FC and CC benefit from AZ's existence - as Alitalia is very inefficiently run, there will be fewer jobs available than there would be in a market with efficient players. In the long run everyone - bar only those with corrupt self-interests - will be better off. Short term pain for long-term gain.
Yes, the unions are mental beyond belief - I like the "undertaker" comment from an obviously more switched-on one! But then who knows - maybe their gamble on a last-minute bail out will pay off - but it really is looking doubtful now.
So - as someone before wrote before - Arrivederci Alitalia. You most certainly won't be missed.
Navigante - you are right. That's why AZ has to go bust, so that better-run airlines can take over. It could never happen any other way due to entrenched interests and political interference. You and all your colleagues will benefit in the long term.
Good luck!
Good luck!
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No pilot but Italian. Just been watching news on RAI channels.......pilots + CC celebrating news of negotiations breakdown in FCO!
Italian and AZ pilot.
Happy PILOT this evening after the 2 Pilots Associations,2 FA associations and CGIL, rejected this ridiculous rescue plan, presented by a coalition of thugs put up by the clown that runs this country.
More should be said on this group of "entrepreneurs", their history and the reasons they joyned the bid, on the huge conflict of interest of some of them, but no time now.
A few words and examples on the so called new "contract" for us Pilots (btw single contract for cockpit-cabin crew & ground personell).
- About a 1000 redunciancies among pilots; lets say all those 47-48 yrs of age up were to go
-Salary reduction around 40%
-Days off down to 30 in a three month period, a minimum of 8 per month of which 7 "movable" (usable). Only 1 day non movable
-Holidays down to 30 from 42
-company contribution to the Pension Fund down to 2% from 7.28%.
Just to list a few of the new conditions that would have brought our contract back to Middle Age, with very little or none Union representation.
What we hope for now, is a proper, transparent sale process, with no interference from politics.
And as a final note, the son of the italian minister of transport is a Az pilot. He was hired in 2002. All hirings were suspended post 9/11, but somehow he managed to slip in. And he wouldn't have lost his job, "last in, last out?"
I'm not yet 52, in my 29th year with Az, don't have the numbers for pension yet, I was OUT. I'll probably be out anyway whatever the outcome of this never ending story, but I won't be seeing berlusconi on the news announcing he's saved Alitalia kicking 1000 pilots out of the job.
Ready to fight.
Italian and AZ pilot.
Happy PILOT this evening after the 2 Pilots Associations,2 FA associations and CGIL, rejected this ridiculous rescue plan, presented by a coalition of thugs put up by the clown that runs this country.
More should be said on this group of "entrepreneurs", their history and the reasons they joyned the bid, on the huge conflict of interest of some of them, but no time now.
A few words and examples on the so called new "contract" for us Pilots (btw single contract for cockpit-cabin crew & ground personell).
- About a 1000 redunciancies among pilots; lets say all those 47-48 yrs of age up were to go
-Salary reduction around 40%
-Days off down to 30 in a three month period, a minimum of 8 per month of which 7 "movable" (usable). Only 1 day non movable
-Holidays down to 30 from 42
-company contribution to the Pension Fund down to 2% from 7.28%.
Just to list a few of the new conditions that would have brought our contract back to Middle Age, with very little or none Union representation.
What we hope for now, is a proper, transparent sale process, with no interference from politics.
And as a final note, the son of the italian minister of transport is a Az pilot. He was hired in 2002. All hirings were suspended post 9/11, but somehow he managed to slip in. And he wouldn't have lost his job, "last in, last out?"
I'm not yet 52, in my 29th year with Az, don't have the numbers for pension yet, I was OUT. I'll probably be out anyway whatever the outcome of this never ending story, but I won't be seeing berlusconi on the news announcing he's saved Alitalia kicking 1000 pilots out of the job.
Ready to fight.
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Navigante - you are right. That's why AZ has to go bust
If you start digging a little, you will see that the present group of "investors" are all in one way or the other indebted/connected to the present government and prime minister, or to banks with a lot to lose if AZ implodes; it is no coincidence that Air One (which was supposed to be merged with AZ in this pathetic excuse for a restructuring plan) is arguably in a more dire financial situation than AZ... and owes some of these banks (ie Banca Intesa) a LOT of money.
So Air One is rolled into AZ, debt is written off to the "bad company" spin-off and presto, Italian tax payer gets to pay the bill for somebody's poor (or criminal) management. Oh yes, and the workers get shafted of course, with a take-it-or-leave-it offer to work a third more for a third less, and don't forget to thank us too, you're lucky to have a job you know.
Business as usual in my country. But please don't add insult to injury by believing them.