Alitalia (Merged)
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Has someone surely not considered that it would be far easier(cheaper) for Air One to take over a disbanded bankrupt Alitalia than an Alitalia that is still standing?Doesnt this explain the Unions stance?You never rescue an airline in downswing..you wait for it to hit the bottom and then pounce.The machinations going on behind the scenes must be quite entertaining..and what do they call the new merger?Air One?Air One Italia?Air One Italy?How do they reflect Air One's new status as flag carrier?Put a flag on the tail?
short flights long nights
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As I said in another forum, the Fat Chick is about to sing!! Reports now that no flights will be operated on Monday as fuel companies are not providing fuel. Other reports state that many hotels used by Aliatalia for crew overnights are owed large sums. Anyone else heard anything new?
Last edited by SOPS; 14th Sep 2008 at 06:01. Reason: More info
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Don't forget Berlusconi. He came last night to Rome to hold an emergency meeting. Some new promises were made (where the money will come from???) and this morning's "Corriere della Sera" informs almost tryumphantly: "Alitalia, agreement close".
Last edited by eu01; 14th Sep 2008 at 11:34. Reason: spelling
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And here we go. Didn't have to wait much, here is the money involved:
ROME - "One hundred million euros to the agreement".
One hundred million euros to mitigate the cuts in labour costs and thus to contracts of pilots, hostesses, stewards, ground staff and maintenance. No longer a reduction in payroll by 25 percent, but around 20. It is the paper that Roberto Colaninno and Rocco Sabelli, president and CEO of CAI, seem willing to play to struck the deal with the unions.
From the Italian version of "La Repubblica".
ROME - "One hundred million euros to the agreement".
One hundred million euros to mitigate the cuts in labour costs and thus to contracts of pilots, hostesses, stewards, ground staff and maintenance. No longer a reduction in payroll by 25 percent, but around 20. It is the paper that Roberto Colaninno and Rocco Sabelli, president and CEO of CAI, seem willing to play to struck the deal with the unions.
From the Italian version of "La Repubblica".
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apaddyinuk - Yes, you a correct. The norm in EU is 900 hrs per year as far as I know. However, there are certain companies, like Virgin, who have negotiated different max flight time limitations with their pilot force...in virgins case its 750 hrs I believe. I applaude the Italian union for pushing this issue, if that's indeed what happened. To bad BALPA was too busy fighting a silly ID card, that I have yet to meet any pilot who is really bothered about. Instead they should have spent all their efforts over the past couple of years or so lobbying JAA/EU on proper (750-800 hrs / year?) FLT limitations to be implemented in the EU OPS!! But that's another story.....
od
od
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Orangedriver,
Either you are not a member of BALPA, in which case you have no right to complain, or you have paid no attention at all to the information provided about the work BALPA has put in over the years to ensure sensible EU FTLs.
Best you find the information and catch up before commenting further really.
What the hell has BALPA got to do with Alitalia anyway?
Either you are not a member of BALPA, in which case you have no right to complain, or you have paid no attention at all to the information provided about the work BALPA has put in over the years to ensure sensible EU FTLs.
Best you find the information and catch up before commenting further really.
What the hell has BALPA got to do with Alitalia anyway?
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100 million euros..to end up with what? Exactly what was there before, so it will be only a matter of time before the whole cycle starts again.
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Always Late in Takeoff Always Late In Arrival
Let's face it, Governments can't manage anything efficiently in spite of, or more accurately BECAUSE of, three times overstaffing. And that doesn't even include Italian Governments, of which there have been many.
Alitalia, please do the long-suffering Italian consumer a favour and just go away.
Alitalia, please do the long-suffering Italian consumer a favour and just go away.
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The issue is not "just" 65 hours as we all well know.
The Air France KLM deal fell thru because of the Unions' refusal to be constructive in restructuring the airline to a profitable (and therefore job secure long term future).
The same happened in the latest negotiations.
Both groups were willing to give it a shot despite the poor history, both backed out
The Air France KLM deal fell thru because of the Unions' refusal to be constructive in restructuring the airline to a profitable (and therefore job secure long term future).
The same happened in the latest negotiations.
Both groups were willing to give it a shot despite the poor history, both backed out
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groan
I heard that one of the sticking points with the pilot union is they refused to budge on their contractual limit of 65 flying hours per month. You will never make money with that sort of attitude.
Do you really believe the blame for a lost war can be placed on the soldiers?
I am not an AZ pilot any longer but having been one for a number of years I may as well try to dispel a few myths for you... medium-haul AZ pilots are "limited" to 85 block hours a month (past which they go into overtime and start getting extra money) while for long-haul it's 90 block hours... and all this for (substantially) less money than their LH, AF-KL or IB peers...
Sorry to dash your cherished notions. Mind you it's futile; by now the lie has been repeated so often it has become the truth!
Good luck to our AZ colleaugues.
Don't pile it ALL on the unions guys, there's more to this predicament than their refusal to go along with the rescue deal. According to an ANPAC (the italian pilots union) and ECA press release ANPAC - Associazione Nazionale Piloti Aviazione Commerciale their reason to reject the deal is that they can't accept a contract covering all employees in stead of separate collective labour agreements for pilots, cabin crew and groundstaff.
Yes, unions haven't been helpful, but management in AZ has been apalling for the last few decades, further aggravated by political meddling and conflicts of interest. A few examples:
-In the old days, before the hub in MPS came to be, in order to qualify for a job with AZ you had to live in a certain postcode area around Rome (not the cheapest real estate in Italy). Then management decided to create a second hub just 500 kilometers up the road to the north and wanted to relocate people. Understandably, the unions opposed this and argued that it was not reasonable to force people to move after taking up residence in/near Rome to qualify for their job. This is how the 'crew shuttle' between Rome and Milan was created, costing the company large wads of cash.
-KLM started a partnership with AZ years ago, but pulled out (best decision they ever made) because the promises that AZ management and the Italian government had made about developing the hub in Malpensa did not materialise.
-As I understand it, any elected official in Italy who holds his office for more than a year enjoys cheap travel privileges with AZ, costing more wads of cash in lost revenue. This is one of the reasons why politicians oppose a take-over by a foreign airline (because this is undoubtedly one of the things AF would have scrapped to boost revenue).
I am sure that there are many more shining examples of moneywasting in AZ. Like many state companies they are extremely overstaffed and, that ís mostly due to the unions, any attempt to adress this problem was shot down by endemic strike action.
The present state of affairs is a furball of epic proportion. The blame-pinning has started in a predictable way and nobody seems to want to swallow a bit of pride. Unfortunately the victims will be the people working at AZ, either by losing their job or accepting a big paycut and loss of earned privileges. It would be refreshing if Mr. Berlusconi accepted some of the blame (he won't), if the unions got their act together and realised that this is not the time to play with fire some more (they won't either), and if all parties involved saw the bigger picture in stead of focusing on only their own interests.
Yes, unions haven't been helpful, but management in AZ has been apalling for the last few decades, further aggravated by political meddling and conflicts of interest. A few examples:
-In the old days, before the hub in MPS came to be, in order to qualify for a job with AZ you had to live in a certain postcode area around Rome (not the cheapest real estate in Italy). Then management decided to create a second hub just 500 kilometers up the road to the north and wanted to relocate people. Understandably, the unions opposed this and argued that it was not reasonable to force people to move after taking up residence in/near Rome to qualify for their job. This is how the 'crew shuttle' between Rome and Milan was created, costing the company large wads of cash.
-KLM started a partnership with AZ years ago, but pulled out (best decision they ever made) because the promises that AZ management and the Italian government had made about developing the hub in Malpensa did not materialise.
-As I understand it, any elected official in Italy who holds his office for more than a year enjoys cheap travel privileges with AZ, costing more wads of cash in lost revenue. This is one of the reasons why politicians oppose a take-over by a foreign airline (because this is undoubtedly one of the things AF would have scrapped to boost revenue).
I am sure that there are many more shining examples of moneywasting in AZ. Like many state companies they are extremely overstaffed and, that ís mostly due to the unions, any attempt to adress this problem was shot down by endemic strike action.
The present state of affairs is a furball of epic proportion. The blame-pinning has started in a predictable way and nobody seems to want to swallow a bit of pride. Unfortunately the victims will be the people working at AZ, either by losing their job or accepting a big paycut and loss of earned privileges. It would be refreshing if Mr. Berlusconi accepted some of the blame (he won't), if the unions got their act together and realised that this is not the time to play with fire some more (they won't either), and if all parties involved saw the bigger picture in stead of focusing on only their own interests.
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It is a problem of DNA
Thr sad reality is that the ability not to see the truth, however obvious, is in the DNA of many Italian organisations; not least Alitalia.
The reality is that until it all goes pop and the airline is lost, no-one will do what is necessary to restructure - and that is now too late. The appaling management, the intractible unions, the failure years ago to invest in a modern fleet and the false dawns provided by government habutually injecting short term stays of execution have all ensured that the business is reduced to the status of a basket case. The long term interest of all those concerned is to let its life draw peacefully to its close. Then, and only then, can serious though be given to the future.
Overweight Item. SLF
The reality is that until it all goes pop and the airline is lost, no-one will do what is necessary to restructure - and that is now too late. The appaling management, the intractible unions, the failure years ago to invest in a modern fleet and the false dawns provided by government habutually injecting short term stays of execution have all ensured that the business is reduced to the status of a basket case. The long term interest of all those concerned is to let its life draw peacefully to its close. Then, and only then, can serious though be given to the future.
Overweight Item. SLF
AZ should have a "preservation order" issued to them.
They are a perfect example of airlines of the mid-eighties.
Alternatively, who is going to be the one to turn off the life support system?
They are a perfect example of airlines of the mid-eighties.
Alternatively, who is going to be the one to turn off the life support system?
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Paradise Lost
Alitalia will (hopefully) become CAI, Compagnia Aerea Italiana, and they will be a fully private organization called also "Newco". then what will be the leftovers of the "Newco" will be named "bad company" and will have the debts payed by some tonnes of cash coming from the Government (taxes) once for all and no more taxes going into Alitalia never ever again.not a bad idea to make a definite end to this disatrous Alitalia mismanagemnt of the past 25 years.
Isn't socialism a wonderful thing? Animal Farm anyone?
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What I dont understand is why AZ has not gone bust this weekend, are people still booking ? is it not all over the Italian news ?
If this was a UK airline for (eg) BA the UK public would not be booking flights.
Just the media reports alone would have killed any airline.
If this was a UK airline for (eg) BA the UK public would not be booking flights.
Just the media reports alone would have killed any airline.
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daz211, I don't think alitalia is getting many bookings if any at all, as one must be out of the world or in a crazy mind to make one now. Only, they are not talking about it, comprehensibly.
Italian media already reported thta people with paid for tickets have no chance of alternate transport or compensation. Lot of people and companies will simply loose their money.
Anyway, negotiations are still in progress. I hope the unions won't accept, but you can never be sure.
Italian media already reported thta people with paid for tickets have no chance of alternate transport or compensation. Lot of people and companies will simply loose their money.
Anyway, negotiations are still in progress. I hope the unions won't accept, but you can never be sure.