British Airways - 2

[crewmeal]

Ah yes I can hear brother Brackley, Secretary of BASSA back in the 70's who had a turkey farm in Norfolk. Always bemoaning management down route and always used to supply a turkey for them at Christmas. Hilarious!

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "True Skipness, in truth I was thinking more of general commerce. I have never worked in the airline biz, just a user of it across 47 years. I did see closed shop at [not] work but overall, I have been fortunate to see good managers getting good things from the staff. I noticed the change following the 1989/1992 recession. Although, one of the earliest signals was the disposing of Personnel and the arrival of H.R.

That last sentence says it all!

Those old enough will remember two things:
(1) there was very little unemployment, in fact there was a labour shortage!
(2) most people had a job for life, with both managers and staff having commitments to eachother, a culture that has all but disppeared.

Both Labour and Conservative governments of that time operated a "prices and incomes policy" in a bid to damp down inflation. Unfortunately while this policy held wages down, prices soared and this policy fueled inflation rather than ending it.

This caused the disputes that were an attempt to redress this until incomes matched prices once again. At least we had unions in those days!

[vctenderness]

aaaaah me old smoke! He was actually Chairman of BASSA and his father was Chairman of British South American Airways and disappeared on a flight in South America.

He lived in a magnificent country manor in Norfolk and raised Turkeys. It is true he brought them down for senior BA managers at Christmas and I was told they actually tasted of fish!


Sadly passed away last year another legend gone.

[The Royal Family]

BD attempted trans-Atlantic from MAN but abandoned it fairly quickly.

Oh yeah after 8 successful years and it was closed down just before Lufty took over and started checking the books

Anyway what about VS, they have a successful and growing MAN base.

[vectisman]

I see that next summer BA are going to increase Boston up to 4 daily from Heathrow. Is there a possibility in the future that maybe during peak periods such as the summer months both BA and AA could use Gatwick for some seasonal flights to destinations in the USA. With BA looking for expansion eastwards this could ease pressure on slots during the peak periods. O&D is heavier in summer and maybe at Christmas time. Such traffic is less fussed about which London Airport it arrives at. BA already serve Las Vegas, Orlando and Tampa all year round from Gatwick.
I understand about yield but during certain key periods it may work. Just an idea!

V

[Skipness One Echo]

BA don't really do seasonal additiona on long haul in that way. They tend to operate all season or not at all. VS do seasonal double drops to the Carribbean off peak, whereas BA operate the full schedule all season.

[CabinCrewe]

Not strictly true, there are significant seasonal reductions at BA over the winter on longhaul, just look at some of the US routes between Jan and March.

[Skipness One Echo]

Not at Gatwick there isn't, I know LHR drops a few, I understand the full program operates all season at LGW. Sorry, my fault for not being clear.

[BALHR]

IAG/BA will never buy Virgin Atlantic. Sir Richard Branson would never sell to BA and Willie Walsh wouldn't want to give him the money.

BA buying Virgin would be a futile endeavour because the European Commission assesses the impact of consolidation on a route by route basis, and not by reference to slots held at airports. So, for nearly every overlapping route (which is almost every Virgin route) BA would have to divest of a slot pair to a willing entrant, essentially rendering a merger pointless.

Which is why I suggested the following option for a VA/BA merger (to prevent any competition issues:

Agree a "peace deal" with BA, this will mean in the long run (when SRB retires or decides to call it a day), BA will buy VS, until then BA would buy a 49% stake (from Singapore Airlines), then BA and VS "agree" not to compete with each other on routes and lastly VS joining OW

This means that one airline withdraws from one route that they both compete and “spheres of influence” are established:

For example (in North America for example VS might serve Florida, Las Vegas and California and BA everywhere else)

Remember with the exception of LHR-ACC all the routes that BA and VS compete are also served by another airline

Since you were ten? Really?

I am talking about the UK in general…

FFS, it can clog things up in the courts for years and take it to Europe if necessary. The air quality in that part of London is already borderline illegal due to the LHR / M24 / M4 convergence.

If they do take it to Europe, it would make little or no difference (in terms of getting it though), just look whats happened in relation to prisoners to vote…

Do you have any relation to BA? What does this mean? Bases where? Fantasy routes with no competition? Seriously? To where? Commercially viable and with no competition? How?

BA have a profit making hub and spoke business model after having dropped a loss making regional point to point one. Yet you, in your wisdom are advising BA, (seriously, I hope they're taking notes) to get right back in there and hope it will be magically profitable now the competition has had time to steal all the ex BA passengers.
Mate, I cannot wait to see your business plan!

Let me make it clear…

I am not suggest in any form that BA should offer any flights to the region’s (P2P or otherwise) apart from flights to London, I also think that LGW is not right for BA and they need to move it all to LHR as soon as possible

However, the problem is that even after buying BMI, they still lack the required slots at LHR to launch new routes to areas (mostly emerging markets) that are economically viable and are (mostly) already served by AF-KL and LH-LX-OS-SN, now they could buy further slots at LHR (and they should!), but the problem is that there is a limited you can buy before you reach the 70% mark (which is about as high as you can go within the EU)

What makes the problem worse is that LHR has less slots available than let say FRA and CDG, so even if they matched the proportion of LH at FRA, they still would fall behind (and you have to remember that LH also have at least 2 major hubs, 3 minor hubs and at least 1 focus city) and that problem is not going to be solved as long as Dave and his band of idiots dither on R3, certainly BA has lost patience and is planning its future plans on the basis of a 2 Runway LHR (WW himself does not expect any expansion in SE in the near future)

This means that BA needs to expand beyond LHR (until it is expanded), now there is no question it has to come from the South East and the second best option for the region is LGW

This is why what I am calling BA to do is set up a “Mini LHR” at LGW; the routes that would be served from LGW would consist of the following (there might have to be some swapping of routes from LHR):

1: Routes that are only served from London by BA (like Buenos Aires)

2: Routes that only face competition from Gatwick (like Las Vegas)

3: Possible Routes (if viable for BA) that are not currently served by any airline (like Lima)

4: Possible Routes (if viable for BA) that are currently served by other airlines from LGW but not BA (like Saigon)

Now to take it work it would Domestic/Short-Haul connections (some of which might have to be operated with regional jets/turboprops), so BA would have to relaunch routes to regional destinations it has been scrapping even recently (Manchester the latest one)

Remember, once the government has the political will to give the green light to R3 at LHR, then BA can wave goodbye to LGW for good (which would be a good idea) and consolidate all its routes (apart from BA Cityflyer at LCY) at LHR

Until then BA must bypass the government and take matters into their own hands, by expanding LGW into a “mini-LHR” for minor and new routes and buy as many slots as they need without violating competition laws

Slots cost MONEY! What on Earth do you mean "look at" EI, J, JL. How do you avoid looking at EZY at LGW, they're everywhere! They're even in BA's home at Gatwick North now. Have a word with yourself mate.

BALHR, you have written several thousand words today on PPRuNe alone. However you are making a fool of yourself. I am being blunt. You are monopolising several threads with page after page of your ideas, of which most are commercially non starters. You need to read what people are saying to you and understand, rather than just arguing. This isn't a debating society. It's about news of routes and happenings.

Ok, What I meant to say is that until R3, BA needs to look at buying further slots at Heathrow AND Gatwick, otherwise BA will further and further behind the likes of Lufthansa, Turkish Airlines and Emirates

BA have a lot of room in terms of legal grounds in buying further slots at both airports, they only own 52% at LHR and under 20% at LGW, Lufthansa on the other hand own 60-70% at FRA, MUC and ZRH for example

We also have to remember that Iberia (with hindsight, it has become their version of BD) cannot be relayed on for their routes to South America, most of all when Spain’s political and economic future looks uncertain

To make it clear how it could work, here is a list of airlines at both airports that BA should look at when buying further slots:

LHR:

Aer Lingus

Cathay Pacific

Finnair

Japan Airlines

Malaysia Airlines

Qantas

Royal Jordan

SriLankan Airlines

TAM Airlines

Virgin Atlantic Airways

Plus any airline in financial trouble (Gulf Air for example) or a minor operator at the airport (Icelandair for example)

LGW:

Aer Lingus

Air Berlin

Easyjet

Flybe

Virgin Atlantic Airways

Plus any airline in financial trouble (Estonian Air for example) or a minor operator at the airport (Icelandair for example)
LCY:

Cityjet

They don’t have to buy slots from all of them, but they should look at it

Skipness hear hear.

(He's probably just gained his MBA....)

You Haven't a clue about MBAs in that case - they tend to produce people of significantly higher calibre than anything he has demonstrated of late. Please don't tar what can be a decent course with such a brush.

Anybody who has an MBA under the age of 25 is best avoiding..........................

Not enough experience to know what work is..........
Not enough maturity to know when to shut up...........

I do not currently have a MBA; I am still at college for a start…

Two other possibilities (preferably starting with A-level British Constitution followed by a degree in political science):

(1) a job with a "think tank", then doing research for a political party, then working for an MP of that party, then get elected to Parliament, then up the ministerial greasy pole to aviation minister.

(2) join the civil service from university up the greasy pole in the aviation ministry and making key decisions having no hands-on experience of the industry.

Ok, let me make it clear…
I am not a member or any political party or think tank and I have no plans to join any of those organisations
On the other hand, I have strong political views, I do make the most of my vote and lastly I would do a far better job than the revolving door idiots in the job of Transport Secretary (not just aviation I have ideas for, but the railways as well)

[toledoashley]

Caribbean often has some tweaks to it, they change the days of the add -on flights from Antigua. Barbados also has a slight reduction in capacity.

[Ringwayman]

Are you seriously suggesting BA asks it's Oneworld partners if they don't mind selling their LHR slots to them? What would you suggest BA do with those slots...replace those services with their own or inauguarate new destinations?

As for the 49% stake in VS, I'm sure Delta would pleased to know that the purchase by them of the SQ stake went unnoticed by you.

[BALHR]

Are you seriously suggesting BA asks it's Oneworld partners if they don't
mind selling their LHR slots to them? What would you suggest BA do with those
slots...replace those services with their own or inauguarate new destinations?


As for the 49% stake in VS, I'm sure Delta would pleased to know that
the purchase by them of the SQ stake went unnoticed by you.

Yes I am, those slots currently used by fellow OW partners serving routes already served by BA would be better used for new routes

My views on the DL/VS will be made shortly on the "Virgin Atlantic" page, but what can I say is that they are making a rather bad mistake, what they should be doing is looking at AA (which would give them what they want from VS and a lot more...)

[BALHR]

BA had done a deal with Ryanair which is that if Ryanair buy's Aer Lingus (who hold 3.3% of the slots at LHR, same as VS), then it would sell over 85% of their slots (I'm gussing all of them ater on, since FR is not keen on serving LHR) to BA, this would increase their share from 52.5% to 55.8% on LHR's slots

BA in Ryanair deal for Heathrow slots - FT.com

IAG Signs Non-Binding Accord With Ryanair for Heathrow - Bloomberg

Personally, I think that this is a rather good idea (although I am againt FR's takeover of EI), since it would retain competition on the LON-DUB route and give BA more slots at LHR which it really needs

The question is, does BA want to serve Cork or Shannon or leave their Ireland routes to Belfast and Dublin (which they got from their merger with BMI)

[Ringwayman]

so what happens to the regional passengers from who are using the services that will be stopped under your plan? Fly on the competition from the regional airports to their own hubs... yes, I'm sure BA/oneworld would like that.

[BALHR]

so what happens to the regional passengers from who are using the services
that will be stopped under your plan? Fly on the competition from the regional
airports to their own hubs... yes, I'm sure BA/oneworld would like that.

What makes you think that would not use BA?, I am only suggesting this on routes where BA and another OW carrier are operating on the same routes

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "This is why what I am calling BA to do is set up a “Mini LHR” at LGW; the routes that would be served from LGW would consist of the following (there might have to be some swapping of routes from LHR):

1: Routes that are only served from London by BA (like Buenos Aires)

2: Routes that only face competition from Gatwick (like Las Vegas)

3: Possible Routes (if viable for BA) that are not currently served by any airline (like Lima)

4: Possible Routes (if viable for BA) that are currently served by other airlines from LGW but not BA (like Saigon)"

This not such a good idea:

1. routes like EZE may need connecting traffic. It's recently gone from 4 to 7/week and from one stop to nonstop. This suggests that it is doing OK as it is;
2. LAS on BA is ex-LHR and ex-LGW and competes with VS ex-LGW and doing well;
3. routes like LIM would almost certainly need transfer traffic to be viable and would therefore need to be at LHR;
4. as above, but the competition (VN) will more than likely be at LHR-4 with the rest of Skyteam in the near future.

It is likely that BA and VS will stick to their tried and tested policy of having a hub at LHR for the majority of routes with the overflow at LGW being mainly point to point leisure routes.

Quote: "Ok, let me make it clear…
I am not a member or any political party or think tank and I have no plans to join any of those organisations
On the other hand, I have strong political views, I do make the most of my vote and lastly I would do a far better job than the revolving door idiots in the job of Transport Secretary (not just aviation I have ideas for, but the railways as well)"

Would you really make a better job of being Transport Secretary? Would your "strong political views" not get in the way? Sounds a bit arrogant and pompous. Would you not face the same pressures and obstacles?

By your enthusiastic advocacy of Silver Island (you called it THA) on another thread, you have already made it crystal clear that you would not face down the anti-Heathrow expansion lobby!


Are you going to enlighten the rest of us on your ideas for the railways?

[Calmcavok]

My views on the DL/VS will be made shortly on the "Virgin Atlantic" page

We can hardly wait.

Why do you write so much tosh that is not based on any form of reality? I'm sure it's well intentioned, but there's so much of it!

[PAXboy]

... but there's so much of it!

No there isn't, if you add to your Ignore List.

[Skipness One Echo]

I would do a far better job than the revolving door idiots in the job of Transport Secretary (not just aviation I have ideas for, but the railways as well)

OK that's enough now. You are utterly monopolising these boards with thousands and thousands of words of your own views on everything under the sun. Just dial it down, you're writing far too much, little of which makes any sense.

Meanwhile....

Caribbean often has some tweaks to it, they change the days of the add -on flights from Antigua. Barbados also has a slight reduction in capacity.

Yes quite right, I wasn't clear in my post. BA operate the full season as is then change from summer to winter, tweaking as you both rightly say. Virgin operate double drops over certain weeks in the season, combining BGI/ANU and BGI/UVF on some weeks only. BA at LHR operate strategic winter cancellations, BA at LGW seem to not follow this practice, especially given that the winter market on long haul is quite strong to the Carribbean. Hope that's clearer.

[chinapattern]

Chengdu

BA are launching Heathrow-Chengdu thrice weekly effective 22nd Sept 2013 with a 777-200.