British Airways - 2
Am I mad ? Well, not really. You see, although T5 is a grand and impressive building, and it's convenient to have all the connections together, moving the BA domestics out to T5 was a real pain when you live in London, or if you are coming down from Scotland and going into London, especially on a day trip. For a start it's about £6 each way more in a taxi out to T5 that to T1, and you can get snared in significant M25 congestion (especially arrivals in the morning) that was never an issue with terminals in the Central Area. Then there's the longer time taken for processing, the lack of a dedicated domestic departures security that T1 used to have, where everyone seemed toknow the procedure (the T5 security takes ages longer), the confounded T5 Conformance cut-off for security, only half the number of Piccadilly Line Underground trains, etc etc. I reckon T5 adds a good 30 minutes each way to domestic flights. That's an hour out of your day if you are doing a day return, as many are.
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That's an hour out of your day if you are doing a day return, as many are.
City airport make the same claim about saving 30-60 mins per sector, but BA have opted to (re) launch LBA from LHR, so let's see.
*Re as in former BD route.
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Quote: "I was forever hopeful that with allthe extra slots BA now has, and the chronic lack of space at T5, that the whole BA domestic operation might have been shifted back to the old BMI area at T1."
Won't happen, LHR-1 is due for demolition when the new LHR-2 opens (next year?).
The whole point of LHR-5 was to bring all of BA and one world under one roof. Pity it wasn't built big enough! That's why part of BA is at LHR-3 with one world.
Before, BA were at LHR-1 and LHR-4, now they're at back at LHR-1, LHR3 and LHR-5. Dear oh dear.
Won't happen, LHR-1 is due for demolition when the new LHR-2 opens (next year?).
The whole point of LHR-5 was to bring all of BA and one world under one roof. Pity it wasn't built big enough! That's why part of BA is at LHR-3 with one world.
Before, BA were at LHR-1 and LHR-4, now they're at back at LHR-1, LHR3 and LHR-5. Dear oh dear.
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Originally Posted by WHBM
I was forever hopeful that with allthe extra slots BA now has, and the chronic lack of space at T5, that the whole BA domestic operation might have been shifted back to the old BMI area at T1.
Am I mad ? Well, not really. You see, although T5 is a grand and impressive building, and it's convenient to have all the connections together, moving the BA domestics out to T5 was a real pain when you live in London, or if you are coming down from Scotland and going into London, especially on a day trip. For a start it's about £6 each way more in a taxi out to T5 that to T1, and you can get snared in significant M25 congestion (especially arrivals in the morning) that was never an issue with terminals in the Central Area. Then there's the longer time taken for processing, the lack of a dedicated domestic departures security that T1 used to have, where everyone seemed toknow the procedure (the T5 security takes ages longer), the confounded T5 Conformance cut-off for security, only half the number of Piccadilly Line Underground trains, etc etc. I reckon T5 adds a good 30 minutes each way to domestic flights. That's an hour out of your day if you are doing a day return, as many are.
Am I mad ? Well, not really. You see, although T5 is a grand and impressive building, and it's convenient to have all the connections together, moving the BA domestics out to T5 was a real pain when you live in London, or if you are coming down from Scotland and going into London, especially on a day trip. For a start it's about £6 each way more in a taxi out to T5 that to T1, and you can get snared in significant M25 congestion (especially arrivals in the morning) that was never an issue with terminals in the Central Area. Then there's the longer time taken for processing, the lack of a dedicated domestic departures security that T1 used to have, where everyone seemed toknow the procedure (the T5 security takes ages longer), the confounded T5 Conformance cut-off for security, only half the number of Piccadilly Line Underground trains, etc etc. I reckon T5 adds a good 30 minutes each way to domestic flights. That's an hour out of your day if you are doing a day return, as many are.
Only a small sample, but my own experience of discussions about what they are doing with seatmates on these BA Heathrow domestic sectors shows nothing like these percentages of transfer pax. In fact, it's been a couple of years since I was next to someone who was transferring.
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I don't know the figures, but I'd guess that domestic connecting traffic pays vastly better for BA than point-to-point - they wouldn't bother wasting slots at LHR on A319s if it didn't. The only reason they will fly routes like LBA-LHR is to fill seats on long-haul, surely? Obviously on the Scottish routes it is sometimes different but there's a reason why they fly to LCY too.
It then all depends on how the revenue attribution is done on connections, and that depends on how the accountant wants to do the arithmetic (and, to some extent, on the relative strengths of the different commercial managers when discussing how to do the split). But the domestic doesn't get much of the total share with a long-haul. If it weren't for the point-to-points it just wouldn't be worth running the service.
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Only a small sample, but my own experience of discussions about what they are doing with seatmates on these BA Heathrow domestic sectors shows nothing like these percentages of transfer pax. In fact, it's been a couple of years since I was next to someone who was transferring.
The 75% figure, if true, is strictly for MAN, on the basis that the train wins on convenience, and usually on price, for most (but not all) pax. The moment you move beyond a 2hr train journey, the advantage of the train falls off rapidly, hence my estimate of 50% for the Scottish sectors, but it was indeed just that.
However, I should of course qualify the price issue on the train, now that we know Virgin 1st class from Wilmslow to London is too expensive even for the Chancellor!
I'd guess that domestic connecting traffic pays vastly better for BA than point-to-point
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Time for train v plane for domestic would be a good comparrison for BA on LHR-NQY
However, they tried LGW-NQY and it didn't work. Where would they get yields for LHR? Would need a 5th runway and turboprop service. So not going to happen I'm afraid.
Afraid I disagree again. If your business or house is anywhere significantly away from Central London then the train rapidly becomes impractical. Yes, it is useful for George Osborne, a quick cab ride from Euston down to 11 Downing Street. But for anyone coming from/going to West London, Thames valley, the M25 corridor, etc it can double your time trying to use he train, more so since the Manchester trains generally abandoned their stops at Watford.
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Time for train v plane for domestic would be a good comparrison for BA on LHR-NQY
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Afraid I disagree again.
If the plane was so good for these very short hops, we'd still have LCY-MAN and LPL - in fact, BA would be in on that market, like they are on LCY > Scotland.
I never said everyone goes by train between Manchester and London, I just said the majority. There are still enough rotations each day (+the VS domestic "replacement") to enable people who want to fly to do so.
The other thing worth bearing in mind is that even if business and connecting pax are the driving force on these routes, there is still yield to be made up on the remaining seats from the more flexible / leisure passenger. However, the double dose of APD + cost of getting to and from the airport really tilts the scales back in favour of the train here for London <> North England.
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Simon, it's not going to happen, even if you keep asking weekly. There's not enough year round trade to use a LHR slot on Cornwall.
EVEN if there was the trade, this is primarily a leisure route, so yields would be terrible.
Last edited by jabird; 21st Oct 2012 at 01:25.
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NQY - Agree with Simon it would be great but also accept it is very unlikely to ever happen. I fly regularly LHR/YCD ( Nanaimo, Canada) and would love to check in at NQY and not see the bags again until we eventually got there but the alternatives are simple, cheaper and only marginally slower.
It is only in the Summer when it is more difficult with all the Emmetts clogging the roads, especially at weekends, maybe we should bring the Islander back!
It is only in the Summer when it is more difficult with all the Emmetts clogging the roads, especially at weekends, maybe we should bring the Islander back!
Just spent 5 minutes wondering what 'emmett' means. Reckon I have heard it before. For others, spelling it as 'emmet' speeds up the process. 
Any idea of the origin of this word ?
Any idea of the origin of this word ?
Plane definitely does not win hands down versus train.
In recent years, domestic air travel has fallen significantly. The proposed HS2 line would give additional capacity to the MAN route (when it eventually gets extended), as well as providing passengers from BHX - the bread and butter of the route.
The majority of people will check in 2 hours beforehand; it takes 1.5hrs to get to LHR from EDI/GLA, you have to wait for your bags at the other end and then travel onwards to your final destination. LHR takes about 30-60 minutes to get into Central London by tube/LHR express.
There needs to be the choice and competition between the two modes however.
In recent years, domestic air travel has fallen significantly. The proposed HS2 line would give additional capacity to the MAN route (when it eventually gets extended), as well as providing passengers from BHX - the bread and butter of the route.
The majority of people will check in 2 hours beforehand; it takes 1.5hrs to get to LHR from EDI/GLA, you have to wait for your bags at the other end and then travel onwards to your final destination. LHR takes about 30-60 minutes to get into Central London by tube/LHR express.
There needs to be the choice and competition between the two modes however.