DURHAM TEES VALLEY AIRPORT - 4

[onion]

BarTT Teesside is a busier unit than Doncaster. Not only this there is a higher volume of ga traffic in and out of Teesside then Doncaster, also one of the main operators at Teesside is FRA and they operate more like the military. On top of this there is RAF Leeming's final approach crossing Teesside's final approach as well as all the military flying in the Vale of York.
Also LPL took on Doncaster at low levels of traffic, too take on Teesside at LPL would be completly different as at times Teesside needs 2 controllers on radar. This would more than likely mean recruiting more controllers at LPL. I just think with my limited knowledge moving the radar unit from Teesside to LPL would be a big mistake.

[Squark7000]

ATC Radar

Air Traffic Control can be basically spit into two. Approach/Radar and Tower/Ground. The Approach/Radar section usually are looking at their displays and are (often) never visual with who ever they are talking to. This service can be done from anywhere in the world, never mind just Liverpool.
The Tower/Ground service, well, that is usually different, as the controller usually finds it helps to look out of the windows in the tower.

[Losingthewill]

As much as I dislike the idea (assuming the Watchman radar is capable of being fed to LPL), I don't see why the radar/approach task cannot be done from there. Controllers would be required to validate on Teesside / Durham airspace and local procedures just as any new controller would. To say LPL controllers couldn't do it is not being realistic. Teesside airspace is unusual in many ways but not impossible to work in for those trained and familiar with their MATS 2. Having said that, if this 'rumoured' move was to take place, the Teesside ATC staff morale would undoubtedly suffer (sounds like it already has). The subsequent departure (not to LPL) of experienced staff and their invaluable local knowledge would surely be cause for concern.

[10 DME ARC]

Ryanair ALC - Well another route GSM will lose money on next year!

[Nannybot]

DTVA radar

Having said that, if this 'rumoured' move was to take place, the Teesside ATC staff morale would undoubtedly suffer (sounds like it already has).

You're not kidding. My contacts at the airport are telling me that most of the existing radar controllers are actively looking for work elsewhere. The management have failed to grasp that the controllers are there only because they want to live in the area for family or other reasons. Many have only stayed, despite, not because of, the management for these reasons. If the only options put to them are to remain at DTVA as a "tower only" with a massive pay cut, or be forced to move to Liverpool, most would find work elsewhere. The uncertainty is causing massive resentment.

Apparently there is also some doubt that it would save money, as has been alleged by the group's ATSM, when the cost of moving all the information required is factored in. This would allegedly require about 10-20 private wires (priority telephone lines), each of which would apparently cost £10,000 - £20,000 per annum.

Then there is the "putting all your eggs in one basket" problem. What happens if something causes ATC at Liverpool to close, (fire, power failure, etc)? All 3 airports would be affected. With independant units the disruption would be minimised.

The subsequent departure (not to LPL) of experienced staff and their invaluable local knowledge would surely be cause for concern.

If only it were. From what I've been told the management are adopting the "head in sand" viewpoint. They only seem to be concerned about "bums on seats" rather than recruiting suitably qualified and able controllers. The only recruits that they have managed to get recently are only qualified to do tower. If these people ask about radar courses they are told that they would only get them if they move to Liverpool.

My contacts are telling me that if this is not resolved soon, within eighteen months or so there will not be enough controllers to keep the airport open for the hours that the management want.

Apparently a number of the senior controllers have told the ATSM this but he refuses to see that there is a problem

[BeaconInbound]

They only seem to be concerned about "bums on seats" rather than recruiting suitably qualified and able controllers.

Quite correct Nannybot - you just have to look at the way a very senior, well respected, knowledgable controller was recently treat by the airport to see that. For those who don't know, there is one of our fellow PPRuNers who used to work at DTV but was told to either take early retirement or be sacked. The reason??? He was off work on the sick for 6 months due stress because his wife is terminally ill. This decision alone has sickened and upset all ATC staff from what I understand from my contact inside ATC.

I hope that the management see that they are sending the unit towards self destruction and realise that experience is the key here...it seems they are too intent on hiring "cheap" staff ie tower only trainees straight out of the college who they can pay £21k to as oppose to tower and radar valid controllers who could go in on circa £45k.

[HeathrowDictator]

I've just had time to catch up with this thread and I see the discussion has turned to whether LPL will provide radar for DTV or not. Following talks with various people "in the know" - I'm led to believe that such a decision has not been made and probably won't be for some time. It has been suggested and it is being discussed at board level, but there are lots of factors as has already been mentioned. My concerns which I have already made known to those in charge are:

• The current Radar contingent at DTV have become "specialists" in dealing with the military...they have seen a lot of situations over the years and there is no substitute for that level of experience;
• If radar were to be moved to LPL there is the issue of training LPL controllers to do "our" job...If DTV's OJTIs knew they would be training people that would eventually make them redundant I doubt they'd do it (that applies to any job, not just ATC);
• There would be little or no current Radar valid controllers at DTV prepared to move southwest;
• Those left would be downgraded to Tower only which would result in a huge pay cut. This would result in a huge number of staff leaving the airport either to persue other career interests (there are qualified electricians and plumbers, etc working in ATC who would probably go into their secondary career rather than move onto a lower wage);
• This would result in inexperienced Tower only controllers who would most likely only use the airport as a starting stone in ATC...this would result in the overall service to the customers being degraded.

These are just my personal views and are based on a "worst-case" scenario. That said, I reiterate that it is only in the discussion stage at the moment to see if the move is possible - and no decisions have been made, despite what anyone else may think.

Sorry for any grammatical errors/brain f**ts, I still feel half dead after doing the met exam this morning!!!

-HD-

[loopa1]

Hello, my first post on here, yay!

I've enjoyed reading many of the posts on here for a number of months now, thought I'd best start to participate!

What do you all think the GSM response will be to FR starting ALC?
I think it's great news that FR have seen the potential in MME but I'm concerned that GSM are going to spit their dummys out and leave us with nothing in the summer. What's the chances of that happening do you think?

I'm sure the GSM AGP used to be twice a week (even though it was originally meant to be three!) for January to March but it seems on their website it's now only once a week, have I missed something? Hopefully this isn't some kind of response to the FR ALC!!!

[groundhand]

Onion,

"The aiport is never going to attract controllers when their top controllers are struggling to make £55000 yet Inverness were advertising for controllers to start on £62000."

...and your point is?

Apply and move to fantastic part of the country; granted house prices are a lot steeper in the Inverness/Nairn/Black Isle area than around DTV but the area more than makes up for it.
Not only INV but as part of the HIAL group you can join the team that do secondments at other HIAL airports. KOI, LSI, WIC and more...
Not to mention free perscriptions, free further education etc etc. and all the other Scottish perks.

..or could it be...

That there is prejudice against an ex NCL SATCO being the top ATC man in HIAL be stopping people from DTV from applying?

Go North young man, go North!

[MAN_Dispatcher]

This post is unrelated to the current items being discussed in this thread, but here goes.

I often check sites like airliners.net, jetphotos.com, planepictures.net etc and have found that in the last couple of years very few photos have been posted of aircraft at MME. For example, I don't even think there are any photos out there of flyglobespan a/c at MME.

I realise that some of these sites have high standards when it comes to the photos they accept, but it would be great to see photos from MME, no matter what the quality, on www.myaviation.net . This site does not vet the photos so it would be great if people could post their photos from MME, whether recent or old/nostalgic on there.

Let us know when you have posted yours

[DTVAirport]

ATC

Is a strike not possible?

[inglebyboro]

Strike

What a cracking idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT.

Just what the airport needs to improve the image for the paying customers. All that would do is drive more people up the A1 to NCL

[Bartrams]

RYR v GSM to Alicante

Let the battle lines commence...who has the greater staying power on the route...or maybe it will be down to who can take the most losses??

Time will tell....as usual another duplicated route...not what we need..lets hope up we dont end up loosing both!!

These LOCO airlines play a strange game...do you think they will ever get together with the airport management and discuss routes ..or are airports now just bit players in the power struggle for the LOCO supremecy?

My money is on GSM pulling off...RYR continuing for as long as the Peel deal lasts and then also pulling off...result...DTV looses out again!!

[fl dutchman]

Gsm/ryr

Could it be that GSM pull Alicante, RYR increase to daily. Then GSM Pull out of DTV altogether, Then Ryanair open a base at DTV with no competition at DTV. If this did happen it could hurt LBA (JET2)and NCL.(EASYJET)

[DTVAirport]

I agree an RYR base would hurt the competition, but it ain't gonna happen, as has already been said, a B738W is just too big for most routes they might operate from here.

[paarmo]

Centralisation of ATC

Having first hand experience of centralisation of command and control in the Emergency Services I know for a fact that this does not work. The cost savings once the systems are set up are marginal if any. The stress factors on the controllers quickly increase by a factor of 10 at times which obviously is not recommended when you are directing aircraft into controlled crashes at airports.There is no downtime to regain your senses and energy and sickness rates increase causing more work for the remaining staff and so the snowball grows. More controllers are needed to cover for sickness and more courses are arranged for the controllers to update onto new equipment and to manage stress etc. It quickly becomes a self perpetuating monster.The cost savings are quickly eaten up by more staff and so the monster grows.
Unfortunately once you have set up the monster the financial implications of going back are so great that it is impossible and anyway the person in charge of the monster is being paid huge amounts of money to see that it continues to self perpetuate.
To stop the monster being born you need facts and figures which include financial breakdowns which are all available either on the net or through freedom of information from the Various Gov. Depts. Good Luck. You will need it.

[N707ZS]

Perhaps the local rag should get to here about the ATC.

[onion]

I think they should hear about the way Peel and the airport managment are treating ATC. The only problem is is that it would be bad publicity for the airport and so do no help to the current ATC staff as they are part of the airport, they would suffer as well.
I have heard that the member of staff BeaconInbound refers to was willing to return to work when the situation allowed and had to this effect already once during his wifes illness. The airport turned this offer down, which seems very stupid as the member of staff concerned was also an OJTI, verifier and an assessor and was such an invaluable member of the unit in that his abilities could be used to help train up new recruits and so help with the shortages in the staffing levels.

[Bartrams]

Loco v ATCo

Sorry to say but ATC is being dragged down to the same level


For low cost airlines read...low cost Air traffic Control...it makes me cringe!

[Bol Zup]

What is shocking about the whole ATC situation is because of one man's egotistical empire building, controllers of 20+ years experience at DTVA are now looking elsewhere for employment.