CORK - 5
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Is Cork the only airport in Europe that has its main runway running virtually perpendicular to the prevailing winds? I'd love to know what was the logic behind that decision taken all those years ago and how many passengers have been inconvenienced by it since? Major disruption again tonight.
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Not just Cork Aer Lingus have diverted around 5 or 6 flights to Manchester while all regional flights are grounded while FR are diverting to Belfast and Shannon and have stoped all departers from DUB.
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A small extension of both runways in Cork would solve a lot of issues there
Unfortunately runway 25 is particularly short. Only Aer Lingus Regional ATR`s are landing in Cork tonight, everything else diverted to Shannon.
A small share of the forthcoming 6 billion stimulus package mentioned in the newspapers the other day could be spent fixing this issue for once and for all
Unfortunately runway 25 is particularly short. Only Aer Lingus Regional ATR`s are landing in Cork tonight, everything else diverted to Shannon.
A small share of the forthcoming 6 billion stimulus package mentioned in the newspapers the other day could be spent fixing this issue for once and for all
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Just to reply to Ryan two bob, Cork airport was built in 1961 or 1962, and as you can imagine, politics was to the fore in the site selection. Rumour had it that the farm on which its built was owned by a farmer, who wanted to retire, but handily enough was a member of a particular political party.
So that's why it is where it is, in part.
What annoys me is that so much money was spent on the terminal, but very little on the airfield of late.
Another 1,000 feet, to 1,500 feet onto 25, with a displaced threshold with an ILS, or less expensively, RNAV approach, would allow the jets to land at almost max. Landing weight.
Look at how useful 25 is, not many Aer Lingus regional flights cancelled today, because they can use it, but, as no minima are published for Cat C aircraft, the A320 and Boeing, can't.
That said, today was an exceptional day's wind - enroute Cork the actual was
230 at 38 gust 59.
Strongest I've seen in 25 years of flying in Cork.
Would love to see statistics on diversions ex Cork for the last few years.
I think the problem is getting worse.
The last few winters have seen little wind.
It' s baaaaaack!!!!!!!
So that's why it is where it is, in part.
What annoys me is that so much money was spent on the terminal, but very little on the airfield of late.
Another 1,000 feet, to 1,500 feet onto 25, with a displaced threshold with an ILS, or less expensively, RNAV approach, would allow the jets to land at almost max. Landing weight.
Look at how useful 25 is, not many Aer Lingus regional flights cancelled today, because they can use it, but, as no minima are published for Cat C aircraft, the A320 and Boeing, can't.
That said, today was an exceptional day's wind - enroute Cork the actual was
230 at 38 gust 59.
Strongest I've seen in 25 years of flying in Cork.
Would love to see statistics on diversions ex Cork for the last few years.
I think the problem is getting worse.
The last few winters have seen little wind.
It' s baaaaaack!!!!!!!
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It's only a short few years ago since the idea of selling land near the threshold of 25 for a business park was seriously considered. This would have involved the permenant closure of the runway.
The collapse of the Celtic Tiger put an end to that foolish proposal I suspect the planning of Cork Airport was designed with DC3's and F27's in mind. Up to the end of the Viscount era, 25 was extensively used. However within 10 years of its opening the Boeing 737 and BAC 1-11 operated the overwhelmng majority of flights. As is often the case when it comes to Aviation in this country, long term vision was seriusly lacking.
The collapse of the Celtic Tiger put an end to that foolish proposal I suspect the planning of Cork Airport was designed with DC3's and F27's in mind. Up to the end of the Viscount era, 25 was extensively used. However within 10 years of its opening the Boeing 737 and BAC 1-11 operated the overwhelmng majority of flights. As is often the case when it comes to Aviation in this country, long term vision was seriusly lacking.
Last edited by ryan2000; 18th Apr 2013 at 05:57.
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According to RTE this am Ryanair says all theirs are operating today. Did they get in to ORK last night? The early STN flight an incomer?
On the runway, the terrain is a disaster, the only long flattish bit is N/S. I suppose the 25 could be extended West, but the terrain nthere isn't ideal either. Extending it East is a nightmare.
On the runway, the terrain is a disaster, the only long flattish bit is N/S. I suppose the 25 could be extended West, but the terrain nthere isn't ideal either. Extending it East is a nightmare.
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Originally Posted by peacock1
Just to reply to Ryan two bob, Cork airport was built in 1961 or 1962, and as you can imagine, politics was to the fore in the site selection. Rumour had it that the farm on which its built was owned by a farmer, who wanted to retire, but handily enough was a member of a particular political party.
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The land where the airport is now is very poor quality, very boggy for the most part. How deep they had to go to lay foundations is anyone's guess. On the other hand the land down Midleton/Carrigtowhill are is excellent farming land so the price difference would have been enormous. It is a pity the it was'nt built down there, the terrain is excellent, flat low lying with the N25 nearby, plus the now reopened rail line.
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It's like a curse, between that and the Dublin element of the DAA trying to run Cork Airport into the ground through that white elephant of a terminal, and then trying to sell off that land behind Cork's back (only to be caught out).
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Yes, Cork Airport is cursed and the Dublin Airport Authority is amongst the worst things to ever happen it - Aer Rianta was bad but what has passed in the last few years is beyond unbelievable. You would think that the DAA has shares in bus companies not airports. I guess it could be argued that Cork is too small for a service to North America so how is that squared off against the many North American destinations which Shannon has which has now been offered even more leeway against Cork and Knock Airports with it's pretend independence which is simply there to present itself with more of a competititive advantage to get around not having to offer similar charges as Cork and Dublin.
You have had the craziness of Wednesday with Cork bound aeroplanes diverting to snn left right and centre due to the exceptional winds, bizjets with perhaps industrialists aboard delaying their departure due to the poor weather because Cork's main runway is completely out of limits with the east west runway handicapped due to it's very short length so what Cork has in fact is not one but two short runways. Can you really imagine that many of those Wednesday evening and Wednesday night passengers easily consenting to using Cork Airport again be it even to London never mind European and longer haul flights when they have cheap overnight busses available all of which only plays into the corporate greed of the Dublin Airport Authority and Fortress Dublin not to mention airlines like Aer Lingus and Ryanair.
Another crazy thing is that in some ways Ryanair is now closer to being a champion of Cork Airport than anyone else is - at least they have opened up some new routes in the last few years and are for the most part paying full fees at Cork on most of the destinations whilst you have Aer Lingus and Aer Arann/Stobart Airways playing for safe every time with the same old destinations with all most minimal creativity with only Brussels to show for it and I cannot help thinking allowed was that only to appease a miniscule band of politically connected self serving cowboys along with the rehash of Lanzarote and Malaga along with a seasonal Palma choice.
Cork is being codded up to it's eyeballs and all that happens is that it bends over and takes it up the jacksie over and over and over again.
If Dublin or snn had the level of weather and runway orientation diversions as Cork has had in recent times you can bet a year's pay that the solution of a new or longer runways would be sorted in double quick time recession or no recession.
I am in despair of Cork Airport - it has not been as depressing since the late 1970s and early 1980s and it seems to me like no one gives a damn.
You have had the craziness of Wednesday with Cork bound aeroplanes diverting to snn left right and centre due to the exceptional winds, bizjets with perhaps industrialists aboard delaying their departure due to the poor weather because Cork's main runway is completely out of limits with the east west runway handicapped due to it's very short length so what Cork has in fact is not one but two short runways. Can you really imagine that many of those Wednesday evening and Wednesday night passengers easily consenting to using Cork Airport again be it even to London never mind European and longer haul flights when they have cheap overnight busses available all of which only plays into the corporate greed of the Dublin Airport Authority and Fortress Dublin not to mention airlines like Aer Lingus and Ryanair.
Another crazy thing is that in some ways Ryanair is now closer to being a champion of Cork Airport than anyone else is - at least they have opened up some new routes in the last few years and are for the most part paying full fees at Cork on most of the destinations whilst you have Aer Lingus and Aer Arann/Stobart Airways playing for safe every time with the same old destinations with all most minimal creativity with only Brussels to show for it and I cannot help thinking allowed was that only to appease a miniscule band of politically connected self serving cowboys along with the rehash of Lanzarote and Malaga along with a seasonal Palma choice.
Cork is being codded up to it's eyeballs and all that happens is that it bends over and takes it up the jacksie over and over and over again.
If Dublin or snn had the level of weather and runway orientation diversions as Cork has had in recent times you can bet a year's pay that the solution of a new or longer runways would be sorted in double quick time recession or no recession.
I am in despair of Cork Airport - it has not been as depressing since the late 1970s and early 1980s and it seems to me like no one gives a damn.
Last edited by Tom the Tenor; 19th Apr 2013 at 00:23.
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Ah, the monthly blame the DAA for all Cork's problems post has reached a new level of Cork tin foil hat paranoia.
This month
This month
- Those devious people in the DAA sent all the wind to Cork so they will fly to Dublin (so they can be diverted to Belfast) the next time.
- cheap over-night busses play into the corporate greed of the Dublin Airport Authority
- Ryanair the only champion of Cork, (with all their new routes to unserved destinations in Poland!).
- "politically connected self serving cowboys"
- Too much spent on the Airport is Dublin's fault (with the same people wanting more debt for new air-bridges and cross runway extensions, etc)
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Tom
For a very small city in the south of Ireland I would have said Cork airport is served quite well. You can hardly expect airlines to open loss making routes just to keep people happy. They are business's at the end of the day, if they thought new routes would make money then I'm sure you would already see them.
I really don't think there is any conspiracy against Cork airport, everybody would like to see more pax and more routes but if the demand is not there then what do you expect?
For a very small city in the south of Ireland I would have said Cork airport is served quite well. You can hardly expect airlines to open loss making routes just to keep people happy. They are business's at the end of the day, if they thought new routes would make money then I'm sure you would already see them.
I really don't think there is any conspiracy against Cork airport, everybody would like to see more pax and more routes but if the demand is not there then what do you expect?
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I just counted the amount of departures for Cork and Shannon tomorrow. Cork has 28 departures, Shannon 12. In one sense Cork is'nt doing too badly operation wise, the biggest problem is that we have to drive to SNN to access USA. The other low side is from a plane spooters point of view. A320. B738, and ATR's become very boring after a while. We don't even have any decent charters any more either.
Last edited by aer lingus; 19th Apr 2013 at 21:16.
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Cork is doing well to be holding around 2.4million pax a year. It'd be great to get back over 3million but that figure was reached at a time when there was 11 flights a day to Dublin, incredibly low fares on Ryanair routes and people taking multiple city breaks every year.
One concern I would have is that Cork is now depending to a much larger extent on Ryanair than it was in the last decade. We know from Shannon's experience with them that traffic could fall very dramatically if they decide to pull routes. Their present strategy seems to be to go to head to head with Aerlingus on most Sun routes which means that we probably have an oversupply of seats to Spain, Portugal and the Canaries and not enough to other destinations.
It's hard to see where any further growth is going to come from unless Aerlingus look at basing a 4th aircraft in winter and a 5th aircraft in Summer. Overseas airlines are unlikely to touch Cork given the local populations preference to fly with aircraft that have harps and shamrocks on their tails.
One concern I would have is that Cork is now depending to a much larger extent on Ryanair than it was in the last decade. We know from Shannon's experience with them that traffic could fall very dramatically if they decide to pull routes. Their present strategy seems to be to go to head to head with Aerlingus on most Sun routes which means that we probably have an oversupply of seats to Spain, Portugal and the Canaries and not enough to other destinations.
It's hard to see where any further growth is going to come from unless Aerlingus look at basing a 4th aircraft in winter and a 5th aircraft in Summer. Overseas airlines are unlikely to touch Cork given the local populations preference to fly with aircraft that have harps and shamrocks on their tails.
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If Aer Lingus added to their fleet in Cork with an A319 this winter, they could put on an evening service to Paris making it finally into a viable hub from Cork like AMS and LHR.
In addition to that they could increase their frequencies on routes like Geneva and the Canaries etc.
It`s also possible that Aer Lingus Regional could base an extra aircraft from their forthcoming new deliveries of ATR 72-600`s in the coming year.
In addition to that they could increase their frequencies on routes like Geneva and the Canaries etc.
It`s also possible that Aer Lingus Regional could base an extra aircraft from their forthcoming new deliveries of ATR 72-600`s in the coming year.
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An outsiders point of view.
Actually looking at the arguments from an outsiders point of view, as a passenger, extending 07/25 by 1000 metres gives a an estimated TODA of 2310 metres comparable with say Liverpool or Newcastle in the UK and along the prevailing wind direction in part and suitable for aircraft like the A321 or B737 800/900 or 787 and forthcoming A350 subject to LCN classification.
Bearing in mind what people have said re the site - I bet that the planning authorities on both sides of Irish Sea must, in the context of global warming; be looking again at airports like Prestwick or Dublin that have kept their secondary runways with a view to renovating/extending them.
Oh by the way I'm familiar with the historic "Shenanigans" of Irish politics re SNN & ORK, being of Irish extraction and my late father worked on the front end of the developments at BHX with J Laing, a site with just about everything not going for it as an Airport site.
The site at Filton outside Bristol had a long former mil runway that could have been developed at a cost. That's another story covered on PPRuNe.
The economic payback of projects is something like 30 - 40 years and I wonder why the existing primary runway at ORK 17/35 was not extended/strengthened by a relatively modest degree to accept medium haul aircraft without frequent restrictions ?
I do not work in operations or planning but is the airport site geologically restricting ? - OK cost is the limiting factor.
CAT III
[edit: Newcastle used as a an example not Bristol ]
Bearing in mind what people have said re the site - I bet that the planning authorities on both sides of Irish Sea must, in the context of global warming; be looking again at airports like Prestwick or Dublin that have kept their secondary runways with a view to renovating/extending them.
Oh by the way I'm familiar with the historic "Shenanigans" of Irish politics re SNN & ORK, being of Irish extraction and my late father worked on the front end of the developments at BHX with J Laing, a site with just about everything not going for it as an Airport site.
The site at Filton outside Bristol had a long former mil runway that could have been developed at a cost. That's another story covered on PPRuNe.
The economic payback of projects is something like 30 - 40 years and I wonder why the existing primary runway at ORK 17/35 was not extended/strengthened by a relatively modest degree to accept medium haul aircraft without frequent restrictions ?
I do not work in operations or planning but is the airport site geologically restricting ? - OK cost is the limiting factor.
CAT III
[edit: Newcastle used as a an example not Bristol ]
Last edited by Guest 112233; 20th Apr 2013 at 13:54. Reason: Bristol is actually very similar in some aspects
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If Aer Lingus added to their fleet in Cork with an A319 this winter, they could put on an evening service to Paris making it finally into a viable hub from Cork like AMS and LHR.
In addition to that they could increase their frequencies on routes like Geneva and the Canaries etc.
It`s also possible that Aer Lingus Regional could base an extra aircraft from their forthcoming new deliveries of ATR 72-600`s in the coming year.
In addition to that they could increase their frequencies on routes like Geneva and the Canaries etc.
It`s also possible that Aer Lingus Regional could base an extra aircraft from their forthcoming new deliveries of ATR 72-600`s in the coming year.