IRELAND WEST AIRPORT KNOCK

[sawtooth]

I think they know only to well at Knock that they did particularly well out of SNN downturn and ryanair demise. Maybe now its time for SNN to win back its share.

The passenger and airline market is there for any airport to compete for, they don't belong to any one airport. FR will decide where they put their metal.

The difference is NOC have spent 10 years building a lean low cost base and delivering efficiency to make that possible, self funding through it's passenger levy. They have built a solid network of sustainable routes against the odds and with relativly little state support, which has since been cut. It has to fund it's infrastructure program which is incomplete and will soon be unable to meet demand.

Their concern is that another airport is being handed a major competitive advantage by the Government in the form of writing off major infrastructure debts and proposals to provide operational funding and development grants in coming years as well as the resources of it's own development agency.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

Are you saying that Ryanair would of opened the current routes from NOC if they still had 6 aircraft based at SNN serving the same ones. Think answer is no......you can't say NOC hasn't done well out of SNN over the last few years. It has done well on getting BE,LH,EI in but Ryaniar are there to make a point.

It has to fund it's own infrastructure program which is incomplete and will soon be unable to maintain demand

Realy? If the airprot stayed open longer this would not be a problem as all flights would not be arriving together, think you may need to check that one again as NOC was given funding for infrastrictire project.

So it was alright for Knock to receive operational funding and development grants but not for SNN when the tables are turned. End of the day NOC managment knew this was coming and no dought Ryanair will play each of the airprots aginst each other but will NOC be able to keep Ryanair when it boils down to it.

SNN debit is not writtin off, its being left with the DAA. What debit does NOC have. At the end of the day compitation is great for both airports.

If SNN carried the debit then NOC would have an advantage but then I guess you fell that alright as its NOC with the advantage and not SNN.

[iwak]

It's clear that knock has a good relationship with ryanair and they operate some routes from both airports .it's clear that the uk and holiday routes are very successful and remains to be seen how the euro routes will perform.

In my opinion I would say it would be just the euro routes bar maybe Frankfurt that fr would move to Shannon if any at all. If dusseldorf performs well for lufthansa I would be hopeful of a few other german cities being added for 2013.

If ryanair return to Shannon with all the uk regionals aer lingus regional would be screwed .

I hope we can get a Malaga and palma route for 2013 before Shannon does should ryanair start to expand again from snn.

[sawtooth]

Are you saying that Ryanair would of opened the current routes from NOC if they still had 6 aircraft based at SNN serving the same ones. Think answer is no......you can't say NOC hasn't done well out of SNN over the last few years. It has done well on getting BE,LH,EI in but Ryaniar are there to make a point.

Yes I think some. It's not black and white, FR didn't one day leave SNN, transplanting the whole base to NOC, they retain a scaled back SNN base and 10 of their key routes up to today. Some were restarted from ORK and KIR. At NOC they started with a couple of sun routes for a season and grew slowly over the last 4 years adding a route here and there as they opened bases across europe. Many of the routes were already successful charters from NOC even with FR at SNN.

So Yes I think FR may have added many of the routes anyway, and of course at the same time used some as a stick to poke the DAA like you say.

So it was alright for Knock to receive operational funding and development grants but not for SNN when the tables are turned...

I should have said my previous post wasn't necessarily my personal opinion but an explanation of the argument NOC were making. I believe there's place for both to be successful airports and I'm happy SNN will be supported back to health.

Yes NOC benefited from state support, but I don't think anything put it at a major competitive advantage. But I think it's reasonable to argue that NOC has had to work hard to get to this stage, and is being told there won't be future funding, where as it appears that SNN which had all the support and resources of the DAA and Shannon Development is getting a bailout.

Wether that gives it a major competitive advantage is another question. Anyway the public / private / semi-state / private trust aspect mean this is comparing apples and oranges and my head hurts so I'll leave it at that!

[ryan2000]

Expect Mayo's 4 FG TD's including An Taoiseach to come under pressure if the Shannon give away starts to undermine Knock! Already the opposition TD for the constituency has called for Knock to be given debt free status!

[Kinocker]

Can't see Knock suffering too much from this as long as the current government are in power at least. We'll have to see the full details of what's on offer for Shannon but they'll have to restructure in a big way to be able to match Knock's low cost base.

O'Leary couldn't make most of his routes work from Shannon before - he kept the profitable ones going there - I don't see what is changing at the moment to make the others viable now. If Shannon were to give him what he was asking for previously to maintain the multi aircraft base with their existing overheads then they are quite simply too stupid to be allowed to run an airport.

[EI-A330-300]

O'Leary couldn't make most of his routes work from Shannon before - he kept the profitable ones going there - I don't see what is changing at the moment to make the others viable now.

Yes becasue the NOC routes are so porfitable.....FR have fares for under €5 on the euro routes.

SNN debit write off to the DAA is not costing the tax payer a penny but if NOC got a debit write off it would cost the tax payer. I can't see NOC having any debits as they said the airprot was profitable in 2010 not sure about 2011 though.

Can't see Knock suffering too much from this as long as the current government are in power at least.

Yes because our Goverment is running the country and make all the decions right!!! If NOC has such a low cost base why can't they manage there finances as good as they are at getting in new carriers and SNN will never be able to have such a low cost base as it actually caters for business passengers unlike NOC which realy only opens for lunch during the winter and slighly longer in the summer.

[Jack1985]

Yes becasue the NOC routes are so porfitable.....FR have fares for under €5 on the euro routes.

The routes are new they have no charges (or massively reduced charges), anyhow Ryanair makes most of its money through ancillary revenue and I'd imagine Ryanair's routes are profitable from Knock, who are you to know anyway?

SNN debit write off to the DAA is not costing the tax payer a penny but if NOC got a debit write off it would cost the tax payer. I can't see NOC having any debits as they said the airprot was profitable in 2010 not sure about 2011 though.

Slightly wrong. Although no funds associated with the DAA are tax-payer obligations, the DAA's debts of over €700m could soon be tax-payer problems if its creditors deem it to high that's to be revealed over the next few days.

Knock has a fairly rigorous regime in place and fair play to the management team up there they seem to have the most commercial sense aviation wise in this country.

Yes because our Goverment is running the country and make all the decions right!!!

I think he was referring to the fact that the Taoiseach is from Mayo aswell as a number of FG TD's, so it would be well in there interests to see growth continue ex-Knock.

business passengers unlike NOC

Again how do you which traveler is using Knock, you don't its your assumption. I could see plenty of Business travellers using London services and most UK routes. While Shannon has TA services, the BA refueling route and a service to London/Heathrow this doesn't mean Shannon is any better then Knock Business pax wise.

realy only opens for lunch during the winter and slighly longer in the summer.

Grow up its open from 7am to 7pm hence why it has such a low cost base, only thing Knock really needs to do is extend opening hours in the evening to say 10pm.

[Kinocker]

EI-A330, you can dilute the €100m in semi-state nonsense or massage the figures any other way you want, but it doesn't change the reality that if Shannon hadn't run up these enormous debts, the Government would be €100m better off right now than it is, and we can ill-afford that kind of wastage at the moment. This IS costing the tax payer, no question about it.

Ryanair's existing UK and sun routes from Knock wouldn't still be running if they weren't doing the business for them, they are not a charity. The fares you quote are for some of the 2012 start up routes which will take time to bed in and may or may not be ultimately successful.

Also, limited winter opening hours is the kind of sensible business decision that results in massive debts not being run up. It might be something Shannon should consider if they want to avoid going back to the government 'cap in hand' in five years time looking for another tax payer bailout.

[NorthernCounties]

Government would be €100m better off right now than it is

Sure from the Government's pov, €100m is spare change in comparison to the bank bailouts.

[Angry Rebel]

EI-A330, you can dilute the €100m in semi-state nonsense or massage the figures any other way you want, but it doesn't change the reality that if Shannon hadn't run up these enormous debts, the Government would be €100m better off right now than it is, and we can ill-afford that kind of wastage at the moment. This IS costing the tax payer, no question about it.

Absolutely 100% correct. To pretend otherwise is just burying your head in the sand.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

EI-A330, you can dilute the €100m in semi-state nonsense or massage the figures any other way you want, but it doesn't change the reality that if Shannon hadn't run up these enormous debts, the Government would be €100m better off right now than it is, and we can ill-afford that kind of wastage at the moment. This IS costing the tax payer, no question about it.

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As far as I know the DAA have never payed part of there profit to Gov so would the Government be 100 million better off, I think the DAA would be. It the passengers using Dublin airport that would be better who are paying for SNN and ORK. The DUB debit is equal to the debit of ORK and SNN put together give or take a few million.

In other news NOC airport claim that almost 10,000 passengers have used the new Euro routes since they started. Not including the first few days in May this means that 83% of seats have being filled since they have started.

April traffic up 11%

[Mayfly1]

If the DAA did not run up all of this debt, then they would be paying back a divident to government and the tax payer for running profitable airports....so effectively the €100m write off of Shn's debt relieves that airport from that obligation to pay it back (interesting from an EU state aid perspective) and puts the burden fully back on the DAA ,and ultimatly us the tax payer at the end of the day. Fair do's to Shn for pulling this stroke, now its' up to the FG TD's , Minister and Taoiseach to deliver once and for all for the west of Ireland.

[Kinocker]

Good news that the pax numbers are still going up, I'd be amazed if the loads for the new Euro routes are as high as 83% at this time of year though, that doesn't seem realistic.

A quick calculation suggests that there would have been around 19,000 seats available from commencement of the new routes to the end of April which would provide a more predictable load factor this early on in the services.

[Jamie2k9]

The info provided by the airport saying close to 10,000 passengers have used the new European routes is from 25 March - 10 May. Ryanair provided 26,838 seats. Using the 10,000 figure quoted by the airport then the actual % of seats filled 37% however in reality I estimate it is between 32-34% as the figure is below 10,000 passengers.

[sawtooth]

Of the 10,000 pax, 6,000 were inbound according to the airports Facebook page, so fairly evenly split. But it's only the first weeks of first time services, Barcelona was a popular last year so may account for a good portion.

Ireland West Airport Knock | Facebook

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The EIR mid morning BHX rotation to DUB is bookable again from the 11th June.

[mart901]

I'm guessing flybe is the most likely candidate then, they seem to have a good relationship with the airport. Also, having announced they are upgrading BHX-BHD to all jet services then it might free up some DASH 8 capacity to launch such a route. It needs daily really on that size aircraft.

[Kinocker]

It was posted on this thread that EIR would announce the route on Monday or Tuesday, so that suggests that all didn't go to plan for them. A bit arrogant of them to assume that they would get the route to themselves if they wanted it, no?

On one side I like the idea of more of an EI presence at the airport, but on the other side neither EI or RE have shown much interest in developing routes at Knock in recent years, preferring instead to focus on Shannon & Galway respectively. Now that the airport is going well they want in - but only on routes where there is a proven demand such as Gatwick and Birmingham. Seemingly no interest in developing routes that are new to the airport. On that basis you'd prefer BE to get it, they are showing a genuine interest in developing niche routes at the airport and having dependable profitable routes like MAN and BHX on their schedule makes them more likely to try other new routes...maybe even base or overnight an aircraft at some point in the future.

[mart901]

I would say Ryanair would deliver most in the way of pax but relying too heavilly on them is a risky game. Flybe are quite a solid operation and it would offer loads of connections through Air France, Brussels airlines etc. I would say Aer Aranns history at Knock and tech issues will have been held against them, much as I'd like to see them. The only other carrier I could see as a long shot would be Monarch, replicating mytravellite A320 success.

[PPRuNeUser0176]

On that basis you'd prefer BE to get it, they are showing a genuine interest in developing niche routes at the airport and having dependable profitable routes like MAN and BHX on their schedule makes them more likely to try other new routes...maybe even base or overnight an aircraft at some point in the future.

What niche routes have Flybe devolped. MAN taken becasue Bmibay left, LBA taken becasue Ryanair left and EDI know as demad as RE left GWY. I see not differance between what BE and EI want with NOC. EI want to take BHX since Bmibaby left so both carriers are doing the same taken routes that have being dropped by others.

Then again there would be room for both on the route and prices would be kept low as a result. Bmibaby were carrying over 100 odd passegners per flight. (monthly stats on BHX page)