MANSTON - 2
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The nature of the airport dictates the nature of the discussion!
Herne Bay - Looking through other airport threads, I can understand your frustration. If someone posted "is it going to close" questions on the LHR board it would be ridiculous.
However, Manston has had a unique, and very public recent history, and frankly, from an industry perspective, topics relating to whether it can, or should survive are more important than spotter stuff about aircraft types etc.
Before EUjet, I understand there was no Manston thread as there was very little activity.
The catastrophic collapse of the venture last year has returned MSE to its pre-EUjet levels of inactivity, but it still attracts huge levels of pprune interest because people want to know if it can, or perhaps even should, continue.
If you have an elephant in your living room, you can't just ignore it!
Herne Bay - Looking through other airport threads, I can understand your frustration. If someone posted "is it going to close" questions on the LHR board it would be ridiculous.
However, Manston has had a unique, and very public recent history, and frankly, from an industry perspective, topics relating to whether it can, or should survive are more important than spotter stuff about aircraft types etc.
Before EUjet, I understand there was no Manston thread as there was very little activity.
The catastrophic collapse of the venture last year has returned MSE to its pre-EUjet levels of inactivity, but it still attracts huge levels of pprune interest because people want to know if it can, or perhaps even should, continue.
If you have an elephant in your living room, you can't just ignore it!
Last edited by deedave; 5th Oct 2006 at 11:52. Reason: omission
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Yeah at the moment with Lyddair Manston will have more routes next year
If you have an elephant in your living room, you can't just ignore it! yeah I would I love all animals.James
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Hopefully in the future Kent can have two successful airports with Lydd remaining in the niche role it does best and MSE catering for more 'mass market' destinations for the local Kent market and the greater London freight market
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deedave
You sound like someone who doesn't want an operational airport too close to you. Lydd sounds ideal.
Lydd however does have one outbound and one inbound passenger flight per day at 09:30 and 17:00. Each Trislander can accomodate 16 pax (in comfort!!!!) have you ever flown on a trislander?? Comfort and Trilander are rarely seen in the same sentence. How can this compare with two Airbus A 320's albeit only on Thursdays with a total capacity of 4 times 138 pax. I know you will retort with it depends on the load factor but with 552 seats avaliable compared to 224, Seguro/Kent Escapes/LTE could operate at 40% loads and still carry more pax than Lydd Air.
Icidentally the Trislanders are up for sale!!!
MSE have two exec departures on Friday with 24 pax on board and this will be more profitable than LyddAir.
This is not Lydd bashing or defending MSE but facts. Kent Escapes have dropped BCN next year but are trying Alicante and Malaga, two routes which worked well for EUjet. There would appear to be many who have hindsight crystal balls and are very happy to pipe up after something goes wrong. How many EUjet bashers have actually run an airline? Answers on the back of a postage stamp I presume.
I feel that I am beginning to bore now so I will conclude.
Lydd have an agressive programme ahead and they may be successful. MSE has proved that it can handle 400,000 passengers and with steady managed growth will carry pax again in the near future. Someone commented on an earlier post that Infratil had no plan. I have seen two presentations confirming a plan to carry 700,00 pax by 2009. Not earth shattering but probably achievable; 2 Million at Lydd by 2014 sounds a bit optimistic but who knows.
Lydd could learn a little from MSE. Everyone stated that no Airport ever diversified into owning an Airline. Lydd already own the golf course and a hotel on the site,does this happen at other airports??
What will be will be but I think Infratil have a better track record with Airports than the FAL group but perhaps the aviation fuel will be cheaper!!
IH
You sound like someone who doesn't want an operational airport too close to you. Lydd sounds ideal.
Lydd however does have one outbound and one inbound passenger flight per day at 09:30 and 17:00. Each Trislander can accomodate 16 pax (in comfort!!!!) have you ever flown on a trislander?? Comfort and Trilander are rarely seen in the same sentence. How can this compare with two Airbus A 320's albeit only on Thursdays with a total capacity of 4 times 138 pax. I know you will retort with it depends on the load factor but with 552 seats avaliable compared to 224, Seguro/Kent Escapes/LTE could operate at 40% loads and still carry more pax than Lydd Air.
Icidentally the Trislanders are up for sale!!!
MSE have two exec departures on Friday with 24 pax on board and this will be more profitable than LyddAir.
This is not Lydd bashing or defending MSE but facts. Kent Escapes have dropped BCN next year but are trying Alicante and Malaga, two routes which worked well for EUjet. There would appear to be many who have hindsight crystal balls and are very happy to pipe up after something goes wrong. How many EUjet bashers have actually run an airline? Answers on the back of a postage stamp I presume.
I feel that I am beginning to bore now so I will conclude.
Lydd have an agressive programme ahead and they may be successful. MSE has proved that it can handle 400,000 passengers and with steady managed growth will carry pax again in the near future. Someone commented on an earlier post that Infratil had no plan. I have seen two presentations confirming a plan to carry 700,00 pax by 2009. Not earth shattering but probably achievable; 2 Million at Lydd by 2014 sounds a bit optimistic but who knows.
Lydd could learn a little from MSE. Everyone stated that no Airport ever diversified into owning an Airline. Lydd already own the golf course and a hotel on the site,does this happen at other airports??
What will be will be but I think Infratil have a better track record with Airports than the FAL group but perhaps the aviation fuel will be cheaper!!
IH
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Just a bit optimistic. I would be shocked if that happenned. Lydd perhaps need to be a bit more realistic and perhaps try and get a 2nd scheduled destination such as Jersey
Last edited by airhumberside; 5th Oct 2006 at 20:26. Reason: Correcting HTML Code
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I went on all three of them routes with EUjet to Alicante,Malaga and Palma and they where over 50% full when I was on them so lets hope they do even better.
James
James
niknak
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How much longer can Manston survive?
Who is paying the daily bills?
Where is the income coming from?
How much money do they make?
The truth appears to be, that the aircraft movements at Manston are not sufficient to pay the bills.
I'm not a gambling man, but if I had £1000 to blow away, I'd bet it on Manston Airport not being open in 12 months time.
Who is paying the daily bills?
Where is the income coming from?
How much money do they make?
The truth appears to be, that the aircraft movements at Manston are not sufficient to pay the bills.
I'm not a gambling man, but if I had £1000 to blow away, I'd bet it on Manston Airport not being open in 12 months time.
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airhumberside
Sorry about the inaccuracy of the routes.
Pax target is 700,000
niknak
The owners Infratil are paying the daily bills of course.
If you looked at their presentation on their website it did actually say when they would return a profit and from memory it was about 3 years into the project so 2 more to wait.
IH
Sorry about the inaccuracy of the routes.
Pax target is 700,000
niknak
The owners Infratil are paying the daily bills of course.
If you looked at their presentation on their website it did actually say when they would return a profit and from memory it was about 3 years into the project so 2 more to wait.
IH
Manston will still be here in 12 months. And more.
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Ianh-
Quote - "deedave, you sound like someone who doesn't want an operational airport too close to you"
Not true.
But what I want is not relevant here.
What is good for Thanet might be.
What is good for commercial aviation certainly is.
The comparison between the public image of MSE and STN is a useful one (ibid), for while there may be similarities, the differences are more significant, and chronology is the most relevant factor.
Archive press shows both airports being flagged as new London airports in the 1980s. STN succeeded due to location and demand. MSE did not.
Back then, environmental concerns were seen as the province of tree huggers, beardies and loonies.
Not so now.
Environmental damage is big news, aviation is implicated, and as I said before, the environmental awareness of schoolchildren - the next generation of aviation customers - cannot be overemphasised.
In 2006, any airport expansion can be tricky, but STN can make a good case due to obvious demand and good location.
By contrast, the sight of MSE turning cartwheels to persuade people to fly is embarrasing and damaging, the pax potential continues to be overstated - and the amount of money being wasted is scary.
I understand a total of £100 million was consumed from 1999 to 2005, from a variety of sources - EU grants, private investment, corporate investment (pensions!) and Kent council subsidising a Manston based airline.
The losses continue, and Infratil's losses affect the wider industry.
On a crude level, one could even suggest that PIK staff are currently subsidising MSE staff!
Is any of this Infratil's fault?
Nope.
The 3-4 year operating loss promise from last year suggests Thanet council have insisted any owners make a vigorous and genuine attempt to run MSE as an airport for a total of 10 years (to April 2009), after which they will entertain other options for the site.
At boardroom level, Infratil would be insane if they didn't want to close MSE immediately - they would make a killing on redevelopment. Unfortunately they must wait on the dimwits in Margate civic centre and their slavish addiction to the "local plan".
.
.
Quote - "deedave, you sound like someone who doesn't want an operational airport too close to you"
Not true.
But what I want is not relevant here.
What is good for Thanet might be.
What is good for commercial aviation certainly is.
The comparison between the public image of MSE and STN is a useful one (ibid), for while there may be similarities, the differences are more significant, and chronology is the most relevant factor.
Archive press shows both airports being flagged as new London airports in the 1980s. STN succeeded due to location and demand. MSE did not.
Back then, environmental concerns were seen as the province of tree huggers, beardies and loonies.
Not so now.
Environmental damage is big news, aviation is implicated, and as I said before, the environmental awareness of schoolchildren - the next generation of aviation customers - cannot be overemphasised.
In 2006, any airport expansion can be tricky, but STN can make a good case due to obvious demand and good location.
By contrast, the sight of MSE turning cartwheels to persuade people to fly is embarrasing and damaging, the pax potential continues to be overstated - and the amount of money being wasted is scary.
I understand a total of £100 million was consumed from 1999 to 2005, from a variety of sources - EU grants, private investment, corporate investment (pensions!) and Kent council subsidising a Manston based airline.
The losses continue, and Infratil's losses affect the wider industry.
On a crude level, one could even suggest that PIK staff are currently subsidising MSE staff!
Is any of this Infratil's fault?
Nope.
The 3-4 year operating loss promise from last year suggests Thanet council have insisted any owners make a vigorous and genuine attempt to run MSE as an airport for a total of 10 years (to April 2009), after which they will entertain other options for the site.
At boardroom level, Infratil would be insane if they didn't want to close MSE immediately - they would make a killing on redevelopment. Unfortunately they must wait on the dimwits in Margate civic centre and their slavish addiction to the "local plan".
.
.
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"I understand a total of £100 million was consumed from 1999 to 2005, from a variety of sources - EU grants, private investment, corporate investment (pensions!) and Kent council subsidising a Manston based airline.
The losses continue, and Infratil's losses affect the wider industry."
I agree £100 million may have been poured down the drain but this was when the airport was in the hands of Planestation, who, it is generally agreed, were not the best. However from what I have seen of Infratil we are talking about chalk and cheese.
You will notice that Infratil did not get all excited and make any announcements about Esperia. They will not comment or leak any info until a deal is done. They do not talk the place up in order to manipulate the share price, why, because they don't need to! They have the funding and to put things into proportion, Infratil could be fined 100 million NZ$ for a deal they were trying to pull off in New Zealand. Planestation were constantly going to their bankers and shareholders for a few million here and a few million there. Things were tight and therefore the money raised was not invested in the infrastructure of the airport.
If Infratil were not serious about running Manston as an airport, they would just drag their heels for a few years and then re develop. After all Thanet Council would never know any different.
Your argument regarding environmental issues is very relevant and I am not in a position to comment as I don't know enough about the impact.
IH
The losses continue, and Infratil's losses affect the wider industry."
I agree £100 million may have been poured down the drain but this was when the airport was in the hands of Planestation, who, it is generally agreed, were not the best. However from what I have seen of Infratil we are talking about chalk and cheese.
You will notice that Infratil did not get all excited and make any announcements about Esperia. They will not comment or leak any info until a deal is done. They do not talk the place up in order to manipulate the share price, why, because they don't need to! They have the funding and to put things into proportion, Infratil could be fined 100 million NZ$ for a deal they were trying to pull off in New Zealand. Planestation were constantly going to their bankers and shareholders for a few million here and a few million there. Things were tight and therefore the money raised was not invested in the infrastructure of the airport.
If Infratil were not serious about running Manston as an airport, they would just drag their heels for a few years and then re develop. After all Thanet Council would never know any different.
Your argument regarding environmental issues is very relevant and I am not in a position to comment as I don't know enough about the impact.
IH
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"The 3-4 year operating loss promise from last year suggests Thanet council have insisted any owners make a vigorous and genuine attempt to run MSE as an airport for a total of 10 years (to April 2009), after which they will entertain other options for the site."
This board gets more ridiculous by the day. Thanet District Council does not have any say over what Infratil does with the site. They have put it in the local plan but they did that years ago, long before Planestation went bust and Infratil took over. Infratil can close it down as and when they wish and can pursue more profitable development options. They can do this because it is losing money hand over fist and they can easily demonstrate that it is a no-goer. Thanet District Council can object to their hearts content but they cannot afford to take Infratil on in the courts. This would be the only route by which they could fight any alternative development that Infratil proposed. I agree with niknak. The end is nigh.
This board gets more ridiculous by the day. Thanet District Council does not have any say over what Infratil does with the site. They have put it in the local plan but they did that years ago, long before Planestation went bust and Infratil took over. Infratil can close it down as and when they wish and can pursue more profitable development options. They can do this because it is losing money hand over fist and they can easily demonstrate that it is a no-goer. Thanet District Council can object to their hearts content but they cannot afford to take Infratil on in the courts. This would be the only route by which they could fight any alternative development that Infratil proposed. I agree with niknak. The end is nigh.
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catflaps.
If the end is nigh why then have Infratil spent over £7 Million on improvements and are still spending. Surely if your argument holds water they would simply do nothing to the fabric of the airport and in 12 months time say it hasn't worked. If they do this they would be at least £7 Million better off, it just doesn't make any sense.
The successful development of the airport is not just about routes, cargo tonnage and passenger numbers. Infratil want to attract aviation based companies to rent or lease land from them, although not Infratil land Avia have just built a new facility on the industrial park and I am sure more companies like this will be attracted to the area. It is a two pronged project. Passengers will bring aviation support business; aviation support will bring the passengers by offering a complete package.
I want Manston to work but I am not blinkered in any way, if it doesn't I won't lose any sleep.
IH
If the end is nigh why then have Infratil spent over £7 Million on improvements and are still spending. Surely if your argument holds water they would simply do nothing to the fabric of the airport and in 12 months time say it hasn't worked. If they do this they would be at least £7 Million better off, it just doesn't make any sense.
The successful development of the airport is not just about routes, cargo tonnage and passenger numbers. Infratil want to attract aviation based companies to rent or lease land from them, although not Infratil land Avia have just built a new facility on the industrial park and I am sure more companies like this will be attracted to the area. It is a two pronged project. Passengers will bring aviation support business; aviation support will bring the passengers by offering a complete package.
I want Manston to work but I am not blinkered in any way, if it doesn't I won't lose any sleep.
IH
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Please read message 142.
Those who ignored it are enabling the knockers to carry on with their ludicrous assertions. The Flat Earth Society makes more sense. Please ignore them, and let those that are committed to aviation discuss Manston in a positive manner.
.
Facts:
600 tons of cargo handled this week (Sun - Sat)
Faro flight arrived at Manston full on Thursday
Upgraded radar to be installed by December
Those who ignored it are enabling the knockers to carry on with their ludicrous assertions. The Flat Earth Society makes more sense. Please ignore them, and let those that are committed to aviation discuss Manston in a positive manner.
.
Facts:
600 tons of cargo handled this week (Sun - Sat)
Faro flight arrived at Manston full on Thursday
Upgraded radar to be installed by December
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Jes
I agree Jes.
Fellow ppruners stop rising to the rantings of those that having nothing else to do, but pour scorn on anthying and anyone to do with the Airport and they will stop, it's as simple as that.
Just like you would a naughty school boy ranting, if you ignore him he will stop ranting. It's the attention they seek, so don't give it to them !
I agree Jes.
Fellow ppruners stop rising to the rantings of those that having nothing else to do, but pour scorn on anthying and anyone to do with the Airport and they will stop, it's as simple as that.
Just like you would a naughty school boy ranting, if you ignore him he will stop ranting. It's the attention they seek, so don't give it to them !
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So Jes, if we all stop saying horrible things about Manston, it will become an overnight success will it?
For the sake of the people who earn a living at Manston, I hope it can become a success, but the facts as you state them hardly reflect a positive long term prognosis for the business:
One full flight, good news but how many full flights and what passenger numbers go through the place each day?
Considering the discounts that the airport owners have to give on landing fees to attract freight operators, then handling costs of disgorging and loading 600 tonnes of cargo - how much revenue did that earn? I am sure you have the facts at your finger tips.
Upgraded radar to be installed by the end of the year - is that the same upgraded radar which was going to be up and running by the end of the year, every year, for the past 30 months?
One hard fact I can give you is that key staff (ATCOs) are leaving Manston to utilise their skills at airports that have aircraft movements and will still be there in the imminent future. Additionally, no one with any experience wants to go to Manston because, despite reasonable wage scales, they can see what is around the corner.
Speaking to staff who work there and looking at the facts of the operation at Manston, I can only assume that Infratil are paying the bills from the Company's Group resources, not the "income" at Manston. The one thing they have on their side is that the sum they paid for Manston and anything theyve since spent, will be easily dwarfed by the money they get for selling the airport for building land when they finally pull the plug.
I note from your profile that you are a "Director", you're not a relative of King Canute as well are you?
For the sake of the people who earn a living at Manston, I hope it can become a success, but the facts as you state them hardly reflect a positive long term prognosis for the business:
One full flight, good news but how many full flights and what passenger numbers go through the place each day?
Considering the discounts that the airport owners have to give on landing fees to attract freight operators, then handling costs of disgorging and loading 600 tonnes of cargo - how much revenue did that earn? I am sure you have the facts at your finger tips.
Upgraded radar to be installed by the end of the year - is that the same upgraded radar which was going to be up and running by the end of the year, every year, for the past 30 months?
One hard fact I can give you is that key staff (ATCOs) are leaving Manston to utilise their skills at airports that have aircraft movements and will still be there in the imminent future. Additionally, no one with any experience wants to go to Manston because, despite reasonable wage scales, they can see what is around the corner.
Speaking to staff who work there and looking at the facts of the operation at Manston, I can only assume that Infratil are paying the bills from the Company's Group resources, not the "income" at Manston. The one thing they have on their side is that the sum they paid for Manston and anything theyve since spent, will be easily dwarfed by the money they get for selling the airport for building land when they finally pull the plug.
I note from your profile that you are a "Director", you're not a relative of King Canute as well are you?
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"I am sure you have the facts at your finger tips."
niknak- If YOU have the facts please share them!
Staff are leaving! Yea they probably are, and probably because the airport is not busy enough for them. That is their choice but if they live locally they will probably be back when business picks up.
I am not sure if you understand business but if Infratil are admitting that they are making a loss at present and this is within the long term plan then for once you are correct. Infratil are paying the bills from the Company's Group resources, not the "income" at Manston. Well done
Following on from the comments from evileyes, try to play the game not the man.
IH
niknak- If YOU have the facts please share them!
Staff are leaving! Yea they probably are, and probably because the airport is not busy enough for them. That is their choice but if they live locally they will probably be back when business picks up.
I am not sure if you understand business but if Infratil are admitting that they are making a loss at present and this is within the long term plan then for once you are correct. Infratil are paying the bills from the Company's Group resources, not the "income" at Manston. Well done
Following on from the comments from evileyes, try to play the game not the man.
IH
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[QUOTE=niknak;2895227]Upgraded radar to be installed by the end of the year - is that the same upgraded radar which was going to be up and running by the end of the year, every year, for the past 30 months?
There has never been a plan to upgrade the radar for the past 30 months.
The Radar has needed upgrading for a long time now, but no plan was put into place.
The reason it is being upgraded now, is because of the lightning strike earlier in the year, which rendered it completely useless as appose to better than nothing !, which has put it to the top of the list of "things to be done"
There has never been a plan to upgrade the radar for the past 30 months.
The Radar has needed upgrading for a long time now, but no plan was put into place.
The reason it is being upgraded now, is because of the lightning strike earlier in the year, which rendered it completely useless as appose to better than nothing !, which has put it to the top of the list of "things to be done"
Last edited by blazing_air; 7th Oct 2006 at 20:10.
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A couple of stories from Oostende Airport's site, explaining how it's good for English importers. EgyptAir are, of course, now using Manston as well.
On Thursday March 23rd, the company Tulpin Airmarketing has imported its first shipment of Egyptian peaches, produce of the new season, in Ostend. The peaches were transported by a freighter of Egypt Air and arrived in Ostend approximately 2 weeks earlier than last year.
For the Belgian, Dutch and English importers of Egyptian agricultural produce, Ostend-Bruges International Airport remains the place to be thanks to the short handling procedure and short transit times. Ostend Airport is very flexible as far as handling of agricultural produce is concerned, contrary to larger airports where there are often considerable transit times.
Egyptian Grapes season takes-off at Ostend Airport
The first Egyptian grapes have arrived in Ostend on an Egyptairflight from Cairo on Wednesday May 24th. Logistics provider Tulpin Airmarketing received the first shipment of 16.000 kg. on this sunny afternoon.
Alain TULPIN, manager of Tulpin Airmarketing, explains that Egyptian exporters choose more and more for the services of his company at Ostend Airport : "Our services do go much further than those of a standard customs agent, as we control the whole logistics chain from the departure hour out of Egypt until the delivery to the depots of English customers. Defra inspection and customs clearance are performed in Ostend, as well as preparing orders and planning the deliveries for the English supermarkets. Grapes arrive faster in the depots of English customers via Ostend Airport, than when the same grapes should land at London Heathrow. A small regional airport such as Ostend , has a lot of advantages for fresh fruits and vegetables, such as shorter distances from the aircraft to the coldstores, easy procedures on documents, punctual DEFRA services and no delay in customs procedures, as big airports suffer in these topics. Lorries are loaded in a short time and the Channel Tunnel is hardly 60 miles from Ostend. After quality control and pre-cooling at Ostend Airport, the grapes were loaded on a refrigerated lorry and offloaded during the night in South-England, where the next morning they will be delivered into the distribution."
On Thursday March 23rd, the company Tulpin Airmarketing has imported its first shipment of Egyptian peaches, produce of the new season, in Ostend. The peaches were transported by a freighter of Egypt Air and arrived in Ostend approximately 2 weeks earlier than last year.
For the Belgian, Dutch and English importers of Egyptian agricultural produce, Ostend-Bruges International Airport remains the place to be thanks to the short handling procedure and short transit times. Ostend Airport is very flexible as far as handling of agricultural produce is concerned, contrary to larger airports where there are often considerable transit times.
Egyptian Grapes season takes-off at Ostend Airport
The first Egyptian grapes have arrived in Ostend on an Egyptairflight from Cairo on Wednesday May 24th. Logistics provider Tulpin Airmarketing received the first shipment of 16.000 kg. on this sunny afternoon.
Alain TULPIN, manager of Tulpin Airmarketing, explains that Egyptian exporters choose more and more for the services of his company at Ostend Airport : "Our services do go much further than those of a standard customs agent, as we control the whole logistics chain from the departure hour out of Egypt until the delivery to the depots of English customers. Defra inspection and customs clearance are performed in Ostend, as well as preparing orders and planning the deliveries for the English supermarkets. Grapes arrive faster in the depots of English customers via Ostend Airport, than when the same grapes should land at London Heathrow. A small regional airport such as Ostend , has a lot of advantages for fresh fruits and vegetables, such as shorter distances from the aircraft to the coldstores, easy procedures on documents, punctual DEFRA services and no delay in customs procedures, as big airports suffer in these topics. Lorries are loaded in a short time and the Channel Tunnel is hardly 60 miles from Ostend. After quality control and pre-cooling at Ostend Airport, the grapes were loaded on a refrigerated lorry and offloaded during the night in South-England, where the next morning they will be delivered into the distribution."