NORWICH
Originally Posted by Phil Space
As the recession kicks in Norwich is hurting bad.
As a fixed and rotary wing pilot I have a smile on my face.
As a fixed and rotary wing pilot I have a smile on my face.
Originally Posted by johnnychips
Schadenfreude?
Spot on assessment Johnny C, got it in one mate!
I feel moved to offer my sympathies to those at Norwich who face the treat of redundancy in this ongoing aviation decline and hope the remainder of the workforce can be spared. I do fear that aviation will not recover to previous levels and that modest reductions in expectations will leave Norwich as a healthy "small" airport rather than a bankrupt hopefull.
I do not share the views of philspace.
bb
I do not share the views of philspace.
bb
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Maintenance
Interested to know what maintenance bases are rumoured to be moving to MAN - only 2 come to mind at Norwich and one of those is not strictly "maintenance" as in EASA 145 etc. Fair to say that was it not for the paying tenants at the airport that the airport would probably cease to exist overnight. And not forgetting the offshore rotary wing flights that contribute a significant amount of business for the airport.
Interesting times ahead.
Interesting times ahead.
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phil space!
what an arrogant,pumped up,self opinionated ********! Those people who may loose their jobs certainatley don't deserve your crass, gloating ,tasteless comments.Just because 7 years ago you had a little bit of hassel when flying you rich boy toy into the airport! If I see your chopper parked at the hotel when I play golf there Ill gladly get my driver out and **** it with a Dunlop 65DDH i you
what an arrogant,pumped up,self opinionated ********! Those people who may loose their jobs certainatley don't deserve your crass, gloating ,tasteless comments.Just because 7 years ago you had a little bit of hassel when flying you rich boy toy into the airport! If I see your chopper parked at the hotel when I play golf there Ill gladly get my driver out and **** it with a Dunlop 65DDH i you
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Its never nice to see people lose their jobs, but I have to agree with those posters who said the aiport is now reaping what they sowed. They took a conscious decision to price out GA and training flights and lost a lot of business, something that could of been a bit of bread and butter for them. The cost conscious GA pilots all avoid the place now and there'd been a big drop in training flights. Other smaller regional airports with 'big airport syndrome' would do well to learn the lessons of how not to do it Norwich-style.
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Other smaller regional airports with 'big airport syndrome' would do well to learn the lessons of how not to do it Norwich-style
Look at Newquay. A publicly-owned airport, supposedly devoted to promoting inward tourism to Cornwall. A very attractive destination for light aircraft. Total 'aero club, private and business aviation' movements in 2009 - 5. Yes, that's right, five.
NS
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There's no doubt that previous Management at Norwich made a very grave error with their attitude to G/A.
I can absolutely assure you that everyone, except the recently departed M.D. saw through it, but he went to the Ryanair University of Belligerence and came out with 1st Class Honours and refused to listen.
However, the new development by Saxonair will make a difference. http://www.saxonair.com
They're in it for the long term and are extremely supportive.
They will be handling all G/A who don't have anywhere else to go, and their refreshing, level headed attitude to everything and everyone aviation will hopefully attract new and old back to Norwich. they've already managed to attract CHC from North Denes which will be a significant increase in rig passengers.
For the airport itself, it's going to be a long old slog, the new M.D has a huge amount to do and the Airport Owners have to make some sensible decisions regarding debts, if they don't it'll be like this for a long time to come.
As for Phil Space, well folks, he makes a habit of knocking airports and airfields he has the most minor grudges with. A brief look at his posts over the years will clearly demonstrate that he's someone with a great deal to say about nothing at all.
I know who he is and before I leave I'd like to invite him on a tour of Norwich Airport, then he can personally share his mirth with those who are about to lose their jobs and those whose posts may under threat, all of whom are worrying if they'll still own a home in the New Year. What a giggle that would be eh?
I'll let you know how I get on!
I can absolutely assure you that everyone, except the recently departed M.D. saw through it, but he went to the Ryanair University of Belligerence and came out with 1st Class Honours and refused to listen.
However, the new development by Saxonair will make a difference. http://www.saxonair.com
They're in it for the long term and are extremely supportive.
They will be handling all G/A who don't have anywhere else to go, and their refreshing, level headed attitude to everything and everyone aviation will hopefully attract new and old back to Norwich. they've already managed to attract CHC from North Denes which will be a significant increase in rig passengers.
For the airport itself, it's going to be a long old slog, the new M.D has a huge amount to do and the Airport Owners have to make some sensible decisions regarding debts, if they don't it'll be like this for a long time to come.
As for Phil Space, well folks, he makes a habit of knocking airports and airfields he has the most minor grudges with. A brief look at his posts over the years will clearly demonstrate that he's someone with a great deal to say about nothing at all.
I know who he is and before I leave I'd like to invite him on a tour of Norwich Airport, then he can personally share his mirth with those who are about to lose their jobs and those whose posts may under threat, all of whom are worrying if they'll still own a home in the New Year. What a giggle that would be eh?
I'll let you know how I get on!
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Maintenance
Ok, done some of my own background on this. (the rumour of a "maintenance base" from NWI moving to MAN). Of the 2 significant players at NWI in the maintenance field there is not a chance of any of them moving to Manchester - in fact, quite the opposite.
Im glad - I have lived in the shadow of the airport since I was born and remember looking through the wire fence on Quaker lane at the planes as a lad - I also worked there for a number of years, it may not be a palace but it serves its purpose well and is very people friendly.
I cant think of anyone there who deserves to loose their job - and maybe the one that did has already gone - those in the know (niknak
) will know exactly who I mean.
Fingers crossed the new MD does well in the face of difficult times. My thoughts are with those who now have this hanging over their heads - its not a nice situation to be in and anyone who finds pleasure in that needs a cold slap.
Im glad - I have lived in the shadow of the airport since I was born and remember looking through the wire fence on Quaker lane at the planes as a lad - I also worked there for a number of years, it may not be a palace but it serves its purpose well and is very people friendly.
I cant think of anyone there who deserves to loose their job - and maybe the one that did has already gone - those in the know (niknak
) will know exactly who I mean.Fingers crossed the new MD does well in the face of difficult times. My thoughts are with those who now have this hanging over their heads - its not a nice situation to be in and anyone who finds pleasure in that needs a cold slap.
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I've sent an email to niknak to assure him it is nothing personal.
However I quote from the Eastern Daily Press....
Why does a small airport like Norwich need in excess of nine managers?
The other question is that if they are not needed now why were they needed in the past and who paid for them?
I'll answer the last question...the punters using the airport.
Durham Tees airport is alo in a similar position,12 million in the red and sueing a major airline which pulled out. I'm sure that will attract new operators.
Norwich is an oil support airfield.The main traffic is offshore helicopters and KLM flights to Aberdeen and Amsterdam. KLM fares are extremely high compared to the likes of easyjet and Ryanair. The result is that the opportinity EGSH offers, a short close link to worldwide flights via Amsterdam,
is denied to anyone using the airport as it too expensive compared to Stansted just down the road.
With the decline in North Sea oil operations who knows what the future holds for Norwich. If the new MD wants to do something positive cheap flights to Schiphol would be a good idea but I suspect the main operator with a base at NWI would block that.
I'd use the airport again if it became attractive. It needs someone like Ryanair to do that and I cannot see KLM acepting that.
On a final note I am sure the owners are aware of the development value of the land should Nortn Sea operations ever move elsewhere.
However I quote from the Eastern Daily Press....
It is understood that nine managers and one director at the airport have been or will be made redundant in the weeks ahead.
The other question is that if they are not needed now why were they needed in the past and who paid for them?
I'll answer the last question...the punters using the airport.
Durham Tees airport is alo in a similar position,12 million in the red and sueing a major airline which pulled out. I'm sure that will attract new operators.
Norwich is an oil support airfield.The main traffic is offshore helicopters and KLM flights to Aberdeen and Amsterdam. KLM fares are extremely high compared to the likes of easyjet and Ryanair. The result is that the opportinity EGSH offers, a short close link to worldwide flights via Amsterdam,
is denied to anyone using the airport as it too expensive compared to Stansted just down the road.
With the decline in North Sea oil operations who knows what the future holds for Norwich. If the new MD wants to do something positive cheap flights to Schiphol would be a good idea but I suspect the main operator with a base at NWI would block that.
I'd use the airport again if it became attractive. It needs someone like Ryanair to do that and I cannot see KLM acepting that.
On a final note I am sure the owners are aware of the development value of the land should Nortn Sea operations ever move elsewhere.
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Phil Space,
Go check on such a website as http://www.fly.com/uk/ and check out the fare on KLM, lets say, NWI/MNL/NWI then compare this to the fare AMS/MNL/AMS and one will come to realise the NWI/AMS/NWI sectors come very competively priced.
What ..... you have your own fixed wing and rotary wing aircraft operation yet you choose to travel with the likes of Ryanair and EasyJet?
Me, I'm a mere cheapskate, I don't have the money to land helicopters in hotel grounds but I have circa 38,000 accumulated KLM 'Flying Blue' points, shame on you you tight fisted basket!
P.S. Just rushing to the toilet, a (supposed) professional pilot making statement that Ryanair make an airport look attractive.
Go check on such a website as http://www.fly.com/uk/ and check out the fare on KLM, lets say, NWI/MNL/NWI then compare this to the fare AMS/MNL/AMS and one will come to realise the NWI/AMS/NWI sectors come very competively priced.
What ..... you have your own fixed wing and rotary wing aircraft operation yet you choose to travel with the likes of Ryanair and EasyJet?
Me, I'm a mere cheapskate, I don't have the money to land helicopters in hotel grounds but I have circa 38,000 accumulated KLM 'Flying Blue' points, shame on you you tight fisted basket!
P.S. Just rushing to the toilet, a (supposed) professional pilot making statement that Ryanair make an airport look attractive.
Last edited by Phileas Fogg; 23rd Nov 2010 at 21:08.
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Phil Space,
Go check on such a website as http://www.fly.com/uk/ and check out the fare on KLM, lets say, NWI/MNL/NWI then compare this to the fare AMS/MNL/AMS and one will come to realise the NWI/AMS/NWI sectors come very competively priced. ..... you have your own fixed wing and rotary wing aircraft operation yet you choose to travel with the likes of Ryanair and EasyJet? I'm a mere cheapskate, I don't have the money to land helicopters in hotel grounds but I have circa 38,000 accumulated KLM 'Flying Blue' points, shame on you you tight fisted basket!S. Just rushing to the toilet, a (supposed) professional pilot making statement that Ryanair make an airport look attractive.
Go check on such a website as http://www.fly.com/uk/ and check out the fare on KLM, lets say, NWI/MNL/NWI then compare this to the fare AMS/MNL/AMS and one will come to realise the NWI/AMS/NWI sectors come very competively priced. ..... you have your own fixed wing and rotary wing aircraft operation yet you choose to travel with the likes of Ryanair and EasyJet? I'm a mere cheapskate, I don't have the money to land helicopters in hotel grounds but I have circa 38,000 accumulated KLM 'Flying Blue' points, shame on you you tight fisted basket!S. Just rushing to the toilet, a (supposed) professional pilot making statement that Ryanair make an airport look attractive.
KLM will charge you 375 UK pounds for a single fare NWI to AMS. However they offer a 3 month return for 135 pounds. (check it out on their website.)
As for your example of the flight NWI/MNL/NWI that is via Bangkok to Manila.
It used to be a bargain (China Airways) especially those travelling to BKK. However there are better options now via London airports so that traffic has moved.
I am not going to debate why private pilots are cost aware but trust me some people smoke and drink and others waste their money flying from no where to nowhere.
Norwich has a nice cafe looking out over the apron.
The place needs to adopt a more positive attitude to anyone turning up to either sightsee or see people off.
I am happy to waste my time suggesting ideas to the airport management to improve Norwich airport.
For starters they need to adopt the model of 20 years ago.
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Phil Space,
I can assure you than AMS/MNL/AMS are direct flights, I flew the route myself during July of this year, the aircraft are B777's painted in a shade of blue and with 'KLM' written on them!!!
NWI/AMS return flights are currently available from £119.25, I've just checked on KLM's website, however if booking via a certain top cashback site there is currently £10.00 cashback if booking direct to KLM's website, infact currently £10.10 cashback, that brings the fare down to £109.15.
BUT ..... do you really believe the majority of travellers on KLM's NWI route are, final, destination AMS? Of course they aren't, that KLM flight will also be on an AF flight number, thru connections AMS/CDG, these are worldwide travellers that value their worldwide availability via the Fokker serving their little regional airport.
I can assure you than AMS/MNL/AMS are direct flights, I flew the route myself during July of this year, the aircraft are B777's painted in a shade of blue and with 'KLM' written on them!!!
NWI/AMS return flights are currently available from £119.25, I've just checked on KLM's website, however if booking via a certain top cashback site there is currently £10.00 cashback if booking direct to KLM's website, infact currently £10.10 cashback, that brings the fare down to £109.15.
BUT ..... do you really believe the majority of travellers on KLM's NWI route are, final, destination AMS? Of course they aren't, that KLM flight will also be on an AF flight number, thru connections AMS/CDG, these are worldwide travellers that value their worldwide availability via the Fokker serving their little regional airport.
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Shows how long ago it was that I last did the trip. It was one of their regular routes and in fact I did quite a few jump seat trips up front. The last one must have been over a decade ago and we lined up and took off on the now disused
runway outside the terminal.
I hope the new airport manager can undo some of the damage done in the past but in my opinion it was a great little airport when it was still council owned.
runway outside the terminal.
I hope the new airport manager can undo some of the damage done in the past but in my opinion it was a great little airport when it was still council owned.
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Niknak wrote..
We the answer is Niknak has been very quite since he posted that.I sent him a detailed reply which I am happy to post but where is his response.?
There is no mirth in people losing jobs but there is no justification in little airports like Norwich finding they have nine managers and one director surplus to requirements.People like me have to fund that infrastructure.
In supermarket terms Norwich is or should be a Lidl and not an M & S.
As for me I am here in Norfolk for a few more weeks before heading back for the winter to Asia using Emirates from LHR
There's no doubt that previous Management at Norwich made a very grave error with their attitude to G/A.
I can absolutely assure you that everyone, except the recently departed M.D. saw through it, but he went to the Ryanair University of Belligerence and came out with 1st Class Honours and refused to listen.
However, the new development by Saxonair will make a difference. http://www.saxonair.com
They're in it for the long term and are extremely supportive.
They will be handling all G/A who don't have anywhere else to go, and their refreshing, level headed attitude to everything and everyone aviation will hopefully attract new and old back to Norwich. they've already managed to attract CHC from North Denes which will be a significant increase in rig passengers.
For the airport itself, it's going to be a long old slog, the new M.D has a huge amount to do and the Airport Owners have to make some sensible decisions regarding debts, if they don't it'll be like this for a long time to come.
As for Phil Space, well folks, he makes a habit of knocking airports and airfields he has the most minor grudges with. A brief look at his posts over the years will clearly demonstrate that he's someone with a great deal to say about nothing at all.
I know who he is and before I leave I'd like to invite him on a tour of Norwich Airport, then he can personally share his mirth with those who are about to lose their jobs and those whose posts may under threat, all of whom are worrying if they'll still own a home in the New Year. What a giggle that would be eh?
I'll let you know how I get on!
I can absolutely assure you that everyone, except the recently departed M.D. saw through it, but he went to the Ryanair University of Belligerence and came out with 1st Class Honours and refused to listen.
However, the new development by Saxonair will make a difference. http://www.saxonair.com
They're in it for the long term and are extremely supportive.
They will be handling all G/A who don't have anywhere else to go, and their refreshing, level headed attitude to everything and everyone aviation will hopefully attract new and old back to Norwich. they've already managed to attract CHC from North Denes which will be a significant increase in rig passengers.
For the airport itself, it's going to be a long old slog, the new M.D has a huge amount to do and the Airport Owners have to make some sensible decisions regarding debts, if they don't it'll be like this for a long time to come.
As for Phil Space, well folks, he makes a habit of knocking airports and airfields he has the most minor grudges with. A brief look at his posts over the years will clearly demonstrate that he's someone with a great deal to say about nothing at all.
I know who he is and before I leave I'd like to invite him on a tour of Norwich Airport, then he can personally share his mirth with those who are about to lose their jobs and those whose posts may under threat, all of whom are worrying if they'll still own a home in the New Year. What a giggle that would be eh?
I'll let you know how I get on!
There is no mirth in people losing jobs but there is no justification in little airports like Norwich finding they have nine managers and one director surplus to requirements.People like me have to fund that infrastructure.
In supermarket terms Norwich is or should be a Lidl and not an M & S.
As for me I am here in Norfolk for a few more weeks before heading back for the winter to Asia using Emirates from LHR
niknak
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What did you want or expect me to say?
I'll put you right on one thing though; The "9 managers" were, until the previous MD came along, "Shift Leaders" in various departments. Each one of them ran individual shifts in 3 departments, (one am, one pm and one on rest days), so now it should be a bit clearer as to why there were 9 of them.
Their redundandcies are a big loss in terms of skill base and knowledge, it will take a long time before anyone is able to do the individual jobs as well as each of them did.
They were only made "Managers" because that is the way the previous MD wanted to run the business.
Their job tiltles changed and job functions included many more responsibilities for which many of them, when they were asked for help/training, were given the O'Leary treatment.
I know this because, unkown to senior management, I often helped them out with procedure formulation and writing - I'm not claiming to be the Messiah, it's just that I knew how to do it so I could pass on the benefits of my knowledge and I was very happy to do so.
I've made no secret of my opinion as to the way the airport treated G/A and the way things have been done, but they are where they are and, as I've previously said, the new MD has a much more progressive approach as to the way things done.
Aside from the redundancies, I think he's on the right track.
The current owners need to either significantly reduce or write off the airport company debt, its the only the airport will be able to get out the perpetual rut it finds itself in.
There's not much more I can say, other than your lack of actual knowledge of current operatons and people at Norwich Airport makes you look a bit daft everytime you spout forth about something which hasn't happened for ages or has never happened at all.
I leave on Friday, but I'm someone will be delighted to give you a guided tour.
I am sure that there'll be plenty of airfields in Asia you can give the world your considered opinon upon. I look forward to reading all about it when you get back.
I'll put you right on one thing though; The "9 managers" were, until the previous MD came along, "Shift Leaders" in various departments. Each one of them ran individual shifts in 3 departments, (one am, one pm and one on rest days), so now it should be a bit clearer as to why there were 9 of them.
Their redundandcies are a big loss in terms of skill base and knowledge, it will take a long time before anyone is able to do the individual jobs as well as each of them did.
They were only made "Managers" because that is the way the previous MD wanted to run the business.
Their job tiltles changed and job functions included many more responsibilities for which many of them, when they were asked for help/training, were given the O'Leary treatment.
I know this because, unkown to senior management, I often helped them out with procedure formulation and writing - I'm not claiming to be the Messiah, it's just that I knew how to do it so I could pass on the benefits of my knowledge and I was very happy to do so.
I've made no secret of my opinion as to the way the airport treated G/A and the way things have been done, but they are where they are and, as I've previously said, the new MD has a much more progressive approach as to the way things done.
Aside from the redundancies, I think he's on the right track.
The current owners need to either significantly reduce or write off the airport company debt, its the only the airport will be able to get out the perpetual rut it finds itself in.
There's not much more I can say, other than your lack of actual knowledge of current operatons and people at Norwich Airport makes you look a bit daft everytime you spout forth about something which hasn't happened for ages or has never happened at all.
I leave on Friday, but I'm someone will be delighted to give you a guided tour.
I am sure that there'll be plenty of airfields in Asia you can give the world your considered opinon upon. I look forward to reading all about it when you get back.
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Niknak
I do not want to appear to be having a personal go at anyone at Norwich but my comments stem from the various negative scenarios I have experienced over the last 12 years.
The days of just calling up on the radio on approach to Norwich and popping in for a coffee have long gone. As others have stated elsewhere the security team seem to delight in filling the few times when they are busy witha zeal that means Norwich is renowned for going over the top especially for departing private pilots flying their own aircraft. Removal of bottles of wine etc from GA operators is not going to win the airport any friends.
You might call them team leaders and helped them with helped them out with
.
We call them jobsworths who have to justify their positions.
The drop of 30% plus in traffic at Norwich is down to management not caring about the customer. Have you ever experienced the Norwich treatment as a passenger or a private pilot?
You say
Well Norwich was not in that situation when it was privatized. Why should anyone bail out what has been a disaster.
Durham Tees,Blackpool etc are all facing the same problems.
All fall in to the same catagory. Little airports trying to play in the big league but with no idea and little finesse when it comes to the person who pays the bill. The customer
As for the new trade...just a case of Norwich poaching the offshore helicopter trade from Beccles and North Denes. Like a flock of starlings they could be off the airfield in a matter of months and where would that leave the airspace grab and the rip off cafe and duty free not to mention the 'development' fee?
I do not want to appear to be having a personal go at anyone at Norwich but my comments stem from the various negative scenarios I have experienced over the last 12 years.
The days of just calling up on the radio on approach to Norwich and popping in for a coffee have long gone. As others have stated elsewhere the security team seem to delight in filling the few times when they are busy witha zeal that means Norwich is renowned for going over the top especially for departing private pilots flying their own aircraft. Removal of bottles of wine etc from GA operators is not going to win the airport any friends.
What did you want or expect me to say?
I'll put you right on one thing though; The "9 managers" were, until the previous MD came along, "Shift Leaders" in various departments. Each one of them ran individual shifts in 3 departments, (one am, one pm and one on rest days), so now it should be a bit clearer as to why there were 9 of them.
Their redundandcies are a big loss in terms of skill base and knowledge, it will take a long time before anyone is able to do the individual jobs as well as each of them did.
They were only made "Managers" because that is the way the previous MD wanted to run the business.
Their job tiltles changed and job functions included many more responsibilities for which many of them, when they were asked for help/training, were given the O'Leary treatment.
I know this because, unkown to senior management, I often helped them out with procedure formulation and writing - I'm not claiming to be the Messiah, it's just that I knew how to do it so I could pass on the benefits of my knowledge and I was very happy to do so.
I'll put you right on one thing though; The "9 managers" were, until the previous MD came along, "Shift Leaders" in various departments. Each one of them ran individual shifts in 3 departments, (one am, one pm and one on rest days), so now it should be a bit clearer as to why there were 9 of them.
Their redundandcies are a big loss in terms of skill base and knowledge, it will take a long time before anyone is able to do the individual jobs as well as each of them did.
They were only made "Managers" because that is the way the previous MD wanted to run the business.
Their job tiltles changed and job functions included many more responsibilities for which many of them, when they were asked for help/training, were given the O'Leary treatment.
I know this because, unkown to senior management, I often helped them out with procedure formulation and writing - I'm not claiming to be the Messiah, it's just that I knew how to do it so I could pass on the benefits of my knowledge and I was very happy to do so.
procedure formulation and writing
We call them jobsworths who have to justify their positions.
The drop of 30% plus in traffic at Norwich is down to management not caring about the customer. Have you ever experienced the Norwich treatment as a passenger or a private pilot?
You say
The current owners need to either significantly reduce or write off the airport company debt, its the only the airport will be able to get out the perpetual rut it finds itself in.
Durham Tees,Blackpool etc are all facing the same problems.
All fall in to the same catagory. Little airports trying to play in the big league but with no idea and little finesse when it comes to the person who pays the bill. The customer
As for the new trade...just a case of Norwich poaching the offshore helicopter trade from Beccles and North Denes. Like a flock of starlings they could be off the airfield in a matter of months and where would that leave the airspace grab and the rip off cafe and duty free not to mention the 'development' fee?