Carlisle

[SWBKCB]

The original building is still there (calling it a terminal sounds wrong) but it can easily handle a plane load of passengers. I expect just a bit of paint and few new chairs are needed.

Plans have been submitted for a terminal and associated apron to be located next to the new big sheds - it's seems to double as a new headquarters for Stobart Rail (terminal on the ground floor, offices etc on the first floor)

http://publicaccess.carlisle.gov.uk/...17-2111745.pdf

[AirportPlanner1]

Originally Posted by canberra97

Because of how you respond to other people's posts and your continuous negative comments.

He's been banned once already but returned under a new alias

[EI-BUD]

Canberra97,

Don't feed the trolls!!!

On the subject of Carlisle, it is hard to see the justification for a new terminal, given the limited operations the place well have. On a commercial basis it is also hard to see how significant enough numbers of passengers can be generated to cover operating costs...at best it would seem to be a leisure operation and seasonal.?

[davidjohnson6]

For years I've been wondering why Durham Tees Valley airport keeps going - but it does (even if possible redevelopment of land into housing is the true motivation)

I really don't believe that Carlisle airport will ever be profitable, but I'm wondering if we should maybe at least give the airport a chance ? It's a rural area which depends heavily on tourism. As long as the public sector subsidy isn't too large, perhaps Carlisle airport deserves the benefit of doubt ? This doesn't sound like a Spanish white elephant costing a billion euros - the numbers involved seem pretty modest in comparison. The majority of local residents seem keen on having a passenger airport - they are the ones who have to put up with noise/inconvenience and possibly support any subsidy from local Govt after all

[GLAEDI]

Originally Posted by davidjohnson6

For years I've been wondering why Durham Tees Valley airport keeps going - but it does (even if possible redevelopment of land into housing is the true motivation)

I really don't believe that Carlisle airport will ever be profitable, but I'm wondering if we should maybe at least give the airport a chance ? It's a rural area which depends heavily on tourism. As long as the public sector subsidy isn't too large, perhaps Carlisle airport deserves the benefit of doubt ? This doesn't sound like a Spanish white elephant costing a billion euros - the numbers involved seem pretty modest in comparison. The majority of local residents seem keen on having a passenger airport - they are the ones who have to put up with noise/inconvenience and possibly support any subsidy from local Govt after all

It's not just the money for infrastructure, it's the cost of government employees to work at an international airport. To staff it you'll need uniform police all day, the Cumbrian Firearms unit to swing by to maintain a firearms presence when flights are on the ground & check-in process is underway and a Border Force presence. So for Police you'll need at least 4 PCs and one PS that's at least £160,000pa in salaries alone. Now even if you recruit two Border Officers to be based there you're talking £150,000 (including salaries, training, relief staff from GLA or MAN to cover rest days, leave & sickness) more if the international flights are spread over a period greater than 8hrs! This doesn't include IT, maintenance and detention costs for Immigration, Customs or Criminal matters. That's a lot of taxpayers money every year. I understand that it's great to have international airports on your doorstep, I'm lucky I have one 15 mins away, another 25mins and a third an hour away but in total these airports handle 25m pax, share Law Enforcement costs and have good public transport links. Carlisle has 4 airports within 2&half hours travel time three have over 10m pax every year many places with a higher tourist demand would love that sort of connections.

[SWBKCB]

Thanks for the detailed comments - interesting, and raises some questions

it's the cost of government employees to work at an international airport.

The only international destination currently planned is DUB - do these requirements apply? When I flew DUB-NCL last week we came through domestic arrivals (we'll ignore Brexit for the moment...)

Carlisle has 4 airports within 2&half hours travel time

There's actually eight (LPL, MAN, LBA, MME, NCL, EDI, GLA, PIK) but I doubt most people would think of these and there's none within an hour and most are more like two hours

many places with a higher tourist demand would love that sort of connections.

Depends if you mean Carlisle itself or the Lakes - if the Lakes I can't think of many?

Also, not seen mention of other infrastructure costs - I think currently only NDB/VOR for landing and fire cover is Category 1 - Category 2 and 3 available on request.

[GrahamK]

You can drive Carlisle-NCL in under an hour on a good day (I.e no lorries on he A69)

[SWBKCB]

You can drive Carlisle-NCL in under an hour on a good day (I.e no lorries on he A69)

Good luck with that...

[Harry Wayfarers]

Originally Posted by GrahamK

You can drive Carlisle-NCL in under an hour on a good day (I.e no lorries on he A69)

I've never driven the A69 but I'd imagine it may be a bit dicey during the depths of winter particularly if travelling to from an early morning/late evening flight when one may be tired.

Whenever I'd been away on a business trip, particularly if arriving back during the evening, the shorter the drive home the better.

I'll watch with interest how the DUB flights go particularly with the marketing of the transatlantic connections from CAX via DUB and particularly if having flown back across the Atlantic, a number of hours in DUB before an onward to CAX I would not want anything more than the shortest drive home possible.

[GLAEDI]

CTA flights don't require a Border Force presence. It'll still require a police presence at the airport form security & CT work. Similar in fashion to ferry ports at Liverpool & Cairnryan. If ops are run on CTA traffic by Border Force which they do on occasions (increasingly so) they'll man from either MAN, NCL or GLA. I was thinking of the Lakes rather than Carlisle itself, which given the half hourly trains Pennine Express & Virgin West Coast from Manchester & Glasgow would be most people's thoughts. As I say if they do go ahead it's a lot of taxpayers money than just infrastructure much coming from Cumbrian Coucil Tax (Policing though CT work is funded in part by the Home Office).

[cumbrianboy]

Having looked at the plans for the terminal it seems a very clever and cheap solution to me. For the volume of passenger you will need no more than 3 maybe 4 security guards on duty, the building is actually Stobart Rail's so the running costs will be negligible. The handling of passengers won't be tricky and the ramp servicing of an ATR is actually quite straight forward.

Armed police and uniformed officers? I don't think so, most small regional airports don't have that and this is just a domestic operation, or operating within the CTA as has been pointed out.

I am also aware of the other airports within 2 and a half hours drive, but to be honest, if you plot a 2.5hr circle around EVERY airport in the UK (perhaps with the exception of the Scottish Highlands and Newquay) you will find everyone overlaps with 3, 4, 5+ or more airports. I mean two and a half hours around Manchester covers at least LPL, LBA, DSA, BHX, EMA, HUY and possibly even NQY on a good day ...

This isn't the point.

The point is Stobart have developed what looks to me to be a sustainable solution to operate the terminal. Integrated into a building that needs to be built anyway and with scope around to extend, should the unthinkable happen and these flights actually work.

Yes there is competition around but the set of routes are sensible. I know you can get a train to London, but realistically apart from the uber expensive peak time time trains, they take c.4hrs and as I have said many times before, not EVERYONE wants to go to the centre of London. If you want to go to the city, the east or essex or the surrounding areas then SEN is a far more appealing arrival point than Euston.

we are talking of an ATR twice a day, 100ish people a day will make a nice profit on that route, it's really not a lot ...

And remember this is a two way traffic generating route, people in the SE who want to visit the lakes, who maybe have friends and family there, plus the trickle of business passengers. Plus, people in Carlisle who want a viable, and likely cost effective alternative to the train, who also have VFR connections in the South East, who maybe doing business and also a tourist market.

Like I said, 100+ people a day isn't many and is a small fraction of the market that currently has to use the train or god forbid, drive.

I am reserving judgement, I think this is a balanced project that is being managed well, and bolted on to an existing and profitable business so as to keeps costs exceptionally low, so all it needs to do is cover it's costs.

The airport is there already and the capital spend probably suits the group from an accounting point of view.

So, my humble opinion is, this could be successful. Is CAX going to be the next LPL or NCL, of course not, but a nice thriving operation to serve a relatively isolated and poorly connected community surely deserves a bit of support and encouragement

[cumbrianboy]

One final point, which I believe is the key to CAX's success .. the airport is an add on to a highly successful and profitable business. The airport company as a whole is not relying on a few flights a day to make money, it is more that these flights are made possible because of the bigger picture ...

[SWBKCB]

Cumbrianboy - all true, good points well made but lets not forget that the airport has also helped Stobart get a new distribution centre and now a HQ building on greenbelt land

Also, any comments on the viability of the airport for winters ops - runway lights, navaids etc?

[cumbrianboy]

It's a chicken and egg situation surely ... yes Stobart got what they wanted but had they bought the airport in the first place it would likely be housing by now.

As for winter ops, Stobart have gained great experience working at SEN, and they also have some good experienced professionals on the board ... I think it is safe to assume that a company that invests the sort of money Stobart does, will have a plan for winter ops ..

I had read of plans to put in an ILS, wouldn't be difficult or that expensive I am sure

[GLAEDI]

Name me one regional airport that has an international or CTA traffic without uniformed Police, CT coverage or Border Force? Just one? Or a ferry port even from Northern Ireland or the Republic without a Police presence? That's taxpayers money. Liverpool, Heysham, Cairnryan, Loch Ryan, Holyhead, Pembroke and Fishguard all have a Police/Border Force presence. Every airport that handles scheduled CTA traffic has Police/Border Force presence. Why would Carlisle be different?

[highwideandugly]

No mention of other staff.

Check in staff etc which would be an airline cost.
Or ATC staff..expensive and for a 14 hour ish day..morning and evening schedules you would need at least 4 maybe 6 staff ? Support engineering. Probably manage with 2. That's is also quite a cost.think only 2 ATC there at moment?

History tells us Carlisle has never had a successful airport apart from the days of 5/6 flights per weekend day to IOM!

Finally has the runway alignment improvement been mentioned?

Going to be a costly exercise but Stobbarts have got deep packets!!

[nighthawk117]

Is it just me, or is part of the existing distribution centre to be demolished to make way for the new terminal?

The drawings show 3 blocks on the end of the distribution centre, which seem to disappear to make room for the terminal. Were these an extension that was never built?

[SWBKCB]

I'm pretty sure this is just a change to previous plans - no altering of buildings.

[HZ123]

Check-in staff would be an airport cost and included in the charges levied upon the respective airline. In this case it would amount to no more than a paper exercise as Stobart would be the airline operating!

An airport and an airline can soon turn a profitable business into a bankrupt business. It is not been the start up that SEN would have wanted and it seems that that operation has some way to go yet and whether two airports are sustainable must be a challenge!