LUTON - 2
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405 movements from a single runway that requires a back-track for departure from either end! 
In particular, well done ATC, how do they get the time to clean the cammodes up there? Is the average ATCO age still 75?
In particular, well done ATC, how do they get the time to clean the cammodes up there? Is the average ATCO age still 75?
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Careful buster! by my reckoning the average age yesterday was 34!!!!
I say good use of conditionals, Intersection departures and use of the ATM.
And a helpful and accommodating radar team!
5-8 at the hold is now the norm, any time of day!!
sometimes to get inbound a/c onto stands!
I say good use of conditionals, Intersection departures and use of the ATM.
And a helpful and accommodating radar team!
5-8 at the hold is now the norm, any time of day!!
sometimes to get inbound a/c onto stands!
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34 eh, must be employing cheap labour these days. forest, I would ask for a rise based upon increased productivity!
5-8 at the hold, must be interesting on 08
!
Only another 3-4 years until Luton gets its own dedicated inbound hold? By the time all the consultation and objections have been counted, that time frame may well have been extended. The entire TMA is due for a complete overhaul, plans evidently are well advanced on that front as well. A shame then that capacity increases may well be inhibited due to a lack of infrastructure development on the ground
.
The extra capacity that the re-design of the TMA will bring, should therefore satisfy the growth brought about by Runway 2 at Stansted?
According to rumour, the easyJet Luton-Istanbul will not happen for a good while, something to do with selling the flights but not having traffic rights approved at that time? Are there different agreements affecting the Basel operation with the Turkish Government?
5-8 at the hold, must be interesting on 08
!Only another 3-4 years until Luton gets its own dedicated inbound hold? By the time all the consultation and objections have been counted, that time frame may well have been extended. The entire TMA is due for a complete overhaul, plans evidently are well advanced on that front as well. A shame then that capacity increases may well be inhibited due to a lack of infrastructure development on the ground
.The extra capacity that the re-design of the TMA will bring, should therefore satisfy the growth brought about by Runway 2 at Stansted?
According to rumour, the easyJet Luton-Istanbul will not happen for a good while, something to do with selling the flights but not having traffic rights approved at that time? Are there different agreements affecting the Basel operation with the Turkish Government?
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According to rumour, the easyJet Luton-Istanbul will not happen for a good while, something to do with selling the flights but not having traffic rights approved at that time?
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As I say, the Istanbul issue is just a rumour, to be confirmed by anyone with the knowledge in the orange 'shrink wrapped' HQ? Must be hot inside the cellophane halls of power in this heat!
Further to this, the fact that the delay in starting the route will take some pressure of the crewing issues currently being experienced by all airlines. Basically a lack of trained pilots.
Well knowing my luck, the route will be back on sale first thing on Monday?
If it is not, Buster told you first!
405 movements in a day, I am still in awe of this figure! Last time this was achieved was with both grass runways in use, a VERY active flying club, and the Post Office strike. From memory that was back in the mid 80's?
One night in particular comes to mind when the P O were so desperate for planes to shift the mail, they were chartering anything that could fly, PA-30 from Biggin Hill turned up and off it flew packed with sacks of letters! One of about 40 others of varying sizes above!
Stansted moved close to 720 flights on Friday!
Further to this, the fact that the delay in starting the route will take some pressure of the crewing issues currently being experienced by all airlines. Basically a lack of trained pilots.
Well knowing my luck, the route will be back on sale first thing on Monday?
If it is not, Buster told you first!
405 movements in a day, I am still in awe of this figure! Last time this was achieved was with both grass runways in use, a VERY active flying club, and the Post Office strike. From memory that was back in the mid 80's?
One night in particular comes to mind when the P O were so desperate for planes to shift the mail, they were chartering anything that could fly, PA-30 from Biggin Hill turned up and off it flew packed with sacks of letters! One of about 40 others of varying sizes above!
Stansted moved close to 720 flights on Friday!
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405 movements in a single day at Luton is significantly different to the days when flying club touch-and-goes made up the numbers.
Luton has NEVER achieved before over 400 IFR 'airways' type movements in a single day and it's an amazing achievement given the lack of ground infrastructure and the lousy airspace infrastructure with which ATC at Luton and at West Drayton have to contend.
As far as LLAO is concerned, it's high time that they acknowledged that they're no longer running a quiet regional backwater of the type Buster remembers when he was a youg lad in short trousers, and so should staff accordingly. And as far as the West Drayton planners are concerned, they desperately need to sort out things such as Northolt's effect on Luton, parachuting delaying some of Luton's departing flights, and not just the mess around Brookmans Park.
Buster - instead of sitting around in your bear garden gorging on honey and magic mushrooms, you should get out more: why not arrange a visit to your former workplace, and see how it's changed? Only a handful of controllers there are over 45 and those that are do the same fine job as their younger counterparts. Old bears like you should be cautious about being ageist, otherwise you might find yourself being shot and then stuffed...
No Sir! An ATC radar team that simply does its job (and a very professional one), just like the guys at Gatwick, Heathrow and Stansted radars, not to mention the TMA North chaps sorting out the above-mentioned airspace mess.
Well done to everyone involved!!
Luton has NEVER achieved before over 400 IFR 'airways' type movements in a single day and it's an amazing achievement given the lack of ground infrastructure and the lousy airspace infrastructure with which ATC at Luton and at West Drayton have to contend.
As far as LLAO is concerned, it's high time that they acknowledged that they're no longer running a quiet regional backwater of the type Buster remembers when he was a youg lad in short trousers, and so should staff accordingly. And as far as the West Drayton planners are concerned, they desperately need to sort out things such as Northolt's effect on Luton, parachuting delaying some of Luton's departing flights, and not just the mess around Brookmans Park.
How do they get the time to clean the commodes up there? Is the average ATCO age still 75?
And a helpful and accommodating radar team!
Well done to everyone involved!!
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405 movements in a single day at Luton is significantly different to the days when flying club touch-and-goes made up the numbers.
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]...I say good use of conditionals, Intersection departures and use of the ATM. And a helpful and accommodating radar team! 5-8 at the hold is now the norm
...a single runway that requires a back-track for departure from either end!Is the average ATCO age still 75?
The purpose of a good AIR (Tower) controller is to safely maximise the use of the runway by minimising runway occupancy times. The purpose of a good INT or FIN (radar) controller is to safely deliver the required gaps when requested by the Tower in order to assist in achieving this result. There is no reason to suppose that this can't be accomplished by the chaps at Luton Tower and Luton Radar just as it is at Gatwick and Stansted (and at Heathrow and Manchester during mixed-mode operations). FYI, almost all the techniques employed by Luton Tower are the same as used at HIRO ('High Intensity Runway Operations') airports such as Gatwick, Heathrow, Manchester and Stansted, the only methodology not used being the modified landing clearance procedure, simply because Luton's runway is not - currently - long enough, and there aren't any rapid exit taxiways available to enable the required after-landing runway occupancy times to be achieved.
Buster, your pre-occupation with age and commodes suggests a personal almost subliminal concern for which I would strongly recommend taking professional psychiatric advice. For what it's worth, if you examined the age profile of the TC Heathrow controllers, I rather think that you'd discover the average age is in the region of 46 - this doesn't seem to unduly affect the service that Heathrow Approach provides...
As far as snipes at LLAO's 'staffing', not quite sure which staff are being highlighted but in terms of pax handling, the 'staffing' is entirely down to the handling agents, one of whom - because of poor customer service - in the last 18 months has already received a 'yellow card' from LLAO's senior management.
The two most significant points arising from 405 movements in a day at Luton (bearing in mind that traditionally, it's July and September that weigh in as Luton's busiest months) are that firstly, this was achieved despite (unlike Gatwick, Heathrow and Stansted) Luton having only limited 'freeflow' between Luton Tower and the adjacent TMA sectors (whereby Luton Tower can depart aircraft without reference to London) and that in terms of the arrivals side of the equation, these were handled in TMA airspace (as opposed to Luton's airspace) that is frankly neither user-friendly nor designed for this level of traffic: consider that Luton and Stansted combined now generate more daily movements than Gatwick
Stansted moved close to 720 flights on Friday
The controllers at Luton and at London certainly came up trumps and are to be congratulated on this achievement.
But it's only what one would expect from the professional ATC teams involved and it should not come as a surprise to anyone, not even to the odd aging old bear...
Last edited by CAP493; 18th Jun 2006 at 13:53.
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405 movements in a day at Luton is indeed, very very good going. But please can we drop the rather patronising stance that some of these posts imply. There is no reason why the ATC service provided by Luton Tower and TC Luton controllers should differ from that which is provided by those at Stansted or Gatwick towers or their respective TC approach units.
Anyway there are not many jobs where you can work a night shift and do bugger all from midnight to 6 am Monday to Friday. Any vacancies as I fancy the big easy
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They are a mean bunch and don’t like any compliments. Anyway there are not many jobs where you can work a night shift and do bugger all from midnight to 6 am Monday to Friday. Any vacancies as I fancy the big easy
They're not particularly selective and they don't ask too many questions.
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Originally Posted by King Pong
Cap493 is right, if you want to insult ATC at Luton just sing their praises. They are a mean bunch and don’t like any compliments.
Mind you, the bl@@dy zimmer frame broke climbing the stairs this morning. 405? Pah! Had 424 the other Sunday at Old Warden.
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What is the world coming to?? Nobody can make a compliment without upsetting someone!!
No body bother next time and lets let everyone get on with a miserable daily routine. If that makes them happier??
I'm going back to my sunbed on the beach! have a nice summer.
No body bother next time and lets let everyone get on with a miserable daily routine. If that makes them happier??
I'm going back to my sunbed on the beach! have a nice summer.
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Anyway too more interesting things, how many black cabs can you squeeze into the drop off area? Well at least 47 because that was the number I counted today.
Anyone else noticed the new signage that adorns the drop off area. Gone are the fees for outstaying the 10 minute rule. The new signs just say Drop off only, no waiting. Of course this has had a big impact on congestion with everyone now obeying the signs.
I see that a large chunk of the short term car park opposite the existing drop off area has been cordoned off. The area is at least twice the size of the existing drop off zone. Could this be the prelude for the construction of a new drop off area? Maybe this area is going to be resurfaced to improve the short term car park? Anyone know what is going on?
Work starts tomorrow on the new M1 link road from the Ibis
Anyone else noticed the new signage that adorns the drop off area. Gone are the fees for outstaying the 10 minute rule. The new signs just say Drop off only, no waiting. Of course this has had a big impact on congestion with everyone now obeying the signs.
I see that a large chunk of the short term car park opposite the existing drop off area has been cordoned off. The area is at least twice the size of the existing drop off zone. Could this be the prelude for the construction of a new drop off area? Maybe this area is going to be resurfaced to improve the short term car park? Anyone know what is going on?
Work starts tomorrow on the new M1 link road from the Ibis
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Why all the willy-waving over the number of movements being achieved?
Luton has just been granted a significant piece of additional airspace that resolved a known bottleneck - and (would you believe it?) the number of movements then increases.
Surely this growth in numbers was inevitable, and possibly (at least in part) its intended purpose.
Why is everyone acting so surprised?
Luton has just been granted a significant piece of additional airspace that resolved a known bottleneck - and (would you believe it?) the number of movements then increases.
Surely this growth in numbers was inevitable, and possibly (at least in part) its intended purpose.
Why is everyone acting so surprised?
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Originally Posted by antilla
Luton has just been granted a significant piece of additional airspace that resolved a known bottleneck - and (would you believe it?) the number of movements then increases.
I think you'll find the increase in movements has (perhaps partly) something to do with some amateur sporting event in Germany.
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Luton is almost at the point of turning business away. In fact some one off cargo flights have been turned away before the runway resurfacing work started when the airport was open 24 hours. The airport is creaking with so many issues that need addressing that it is hard to tell what will give way first.
The worrying thing is that there appears to be no urgency in the airport submitting plans for phase one expansion. Even if plans were published today it could well be a year before work is started and 2 years before the fruits of any work could be felt.
The most urgent requirement is to get passengers to the terminal during busy periods. Last Friday at 7pm I drove out of the airport and witnessed that the start of the traffic queue into the airport was actually on the A505 roundabout. Just one car loading or unloading passengers can stop all airport bound traffic for a minute due to a lack of any space by the kerbside due to parked cars.
It would appear that the airports solution was to install new no waiting signs in the drop off area which everyone ignores yet this area could be kept clear if the airport employed some Heathrow type traffic wardens who don’t take any prisoners. The solution is so easy yet it is beyond everyone at the airport
The worrying thing is that there appears to be no urgency in the airport submitting plans for phase one expansion. Even if plans were published today it could well be a year before work is started and 2 years before the fruits of any work could be felt.
The most urgent requirement is to get passengers to the terminal during busy periods. Last Friday at 7pm I drove out of the airport and witnessed that the start of the traffic queue into the airport was actually on the A505 roundabout. Just one car loading or unloading passengers can stop all airport bound traffic for a minute due to a lack of any space by the kerbside due to parked cars.
It would appear that the airports solution was to install new no waiting signs in the drop off area which everyone ignores yet this area could be kept clear if the airport employed some Heathrow type traffic wardens who don’t take any prisoners. The solution is so easy yet it is beyond everyone at the airport
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Originally Posted by LTNman
Luton is almost at the point of turning business away. In fact some one off cargo flights have been turned away before the runway resurfacing work started when the airport was open 24 hours. The airport is creaking with so many issues that need addressing that it is hard to tell what will give way first.
The worrying thing is that there appears to be no urgency in the airport submitting plans for phase one expansion. Even if plans were published today it could well be a year before work is started and 2 years before the fruits of any work could be felt.
The most urgent requirement is to get passengers to the terminal during busy periods. Last Friday at 7pm I drove out of the airport and witnessed that the start of the traffic queue into the airport was actually on the A505 roundabout. Just one car loading or unloading passengers can stop all airport bound traffic for a minute due to a lack of any space by the kerbside due to parked cars.
It would appear that the airports solution was to install new no waiting signs in the drop off area which everyone ignores yet this area could be kept clear if the airport employed some Heathrow type traffic wardens who don’t take any prisoners. The solution is so easy yet it is beyond everyone at the airport
The worrying thing is that there appears to be no urgency in the airport submitting plans for phase one expansion. Even if plans were published today it could well be a year before work is started and 2 years before the fruits of any work could be felt.
The most urgent requirement is to get passengers to the terminal during busy periods. Last Friday at 7pm I drove out of the airport and witnessed that the start of the traffic queue into the airport was actually on the A505 roundabout. Just one car loading or unloading passengers can stop all airport bound traffic for a minute due to a lack of any space by the kerbside due to parked cars.
It would appear that the airports solution was to install new no waiting signs in the drop off area which everyone ignores yet this area could be kept clear if the airport employed some Heathrow type traffic wardens who don’t take any prisoners. The solution is so easy yet it is beyond everyone at the airport
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Still think LTN are a friendly ATC unit though. Its nice to get a comment like "you must know when I'm working" from a hard pressed controller you have called several times that day asking to enter the airspace as a GA pilot. No criticism of other units, just my personal experience from working 129.55.
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LUTON PAX DROP-OFF ZONE
Firstly
- I humbly raise my hand and acknowledge that I did wrong. I quote this as an example to show why I can't understand what is happening at LTN.
I went to STN late one evening to pick up a friend arriving on a domestic flight. As you may know the domestic arrivals end of the terminal is very quiet at night. I had arranged with my friend to come straight out to the kerbside where I would be waiting. Next...my big mistake. I got out of my car, just nipped into the terminal to look on an arrivals board, then went straight back out to my car. In total honesty I could not have been away from my car for more than 3 mins!! When I approached my car my heart sank - a policeman stood looking at it talking into his radio.
I jogged towards the car - to be met with the most humiliating, forceful b***ocking I have ever had! I honestly felt like a little boy in a headmaster's office! 
And I fully understand that I deserved it. 
I had been foolish.
What is annoying though is that I regularly go to LTN - to witness a drop-off zone PACKED with parked, unattended cars. WHY? 
WHO - WHAT - WHY???
Firstly
- I humbly raise my hand and acknowledge that I did wrong. I quote this as an example to show why I can't understand what is happening at LTN.I went to STN late one evening to pick up a friend arriving on a domestic flight. As you may know the domestic arrivals end of the terminal is very quiet at night. I had arranged with my friend to come straight out to the kerbside where I would be waiting. Next...my big mistake.
I got out of my car, just nipped into the terminal to look on an arrivals board, then went straight back out to my car. In total honesty I could not have been away from my car for more than 3 mins!! When I approached my car my heart sank - a policeman stood looking at it talking into his radio. I jogged towards the car - to be met with the most humiliating, forceful b***ocking I have ever had! I honestly felt like a little boy in a headmaster's office! And I fully understand that I deserved it. I had been foolish. What is annoying though is that I regularly go to LTN - to witness a drop-off zone PACKED with parked, unattended cars. WHY?
WHO - WHAT - WHY???
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I understand that executive business was turned away last week due to a lack of available parking? I am also told that now Luton is an official factory maintenance facility for Gulfstream, that operators of such jets prefer to use Luton as their number 1 port of call just in case of unserviceability issues arising.
Word has it, that Istanbul will be back on sale July 1st......not too sure which year though.
Shoot and stuff Buster, BLIMEY, that would be a long job, I have had a few try to 'shaft' me over the years though!
22/04, you do realise that 129.550 is based at West Drayton, so you are not talking to the unit at Luton?
Antilla you state: "Luton has just been granted a significant piece of additional airspace that resolved a known bottleneck - and (would you believe it?) the number of movements then increases.
Surely this growth in numbers was inevitable, and possibly (at least in part) its intended purpose.
Why is everyone acting so surprised?"
The new airspace does not facilitate an increase in movements, what it does do, is simply to preserve safety, because you must be well aware, the previous inbound route off the STAR interacted with the CPT SID directly above Luton airport?
Antilla, could you please in detail explain how the additional airspace has facilitated an increase in movements please, I for one would be keen to read and learn?
The recent growth at Luton would have occurred regardless of the introduction of the additional airspace to the north west of the airport, so would the 'risk' of incidents close to the airport overhead. Believe me, if Luton wanted extra airspace to facilitate projected growth, its request would have been thrown out on day 1 by the CAA! Antilla, trust me, the CAA will not allow this on a local basis, thus the extreme difficulty in obtaining additional controlled airspace by UK airports.
Word has it, that Istanbul will be back on sale July 1st......not too sure which year though.
Shoot and stuff Buster, BLIMEY, that would be a long job, I have had a few try to 'shaft' me over the years though!
22/04, you do realise that 129.550 is based at West Drayton, so you are not talking to the unit at Luton?
Antilla you state: "Luton has just been granted a significant piece of additional airspace that resolved a known bottleneck - and (would you believe it?) the number of movements then increases.
Surely this growth in numbers was inevitable, and possibly (at least in part) its intended purpose.
Why is everyone acting so surprised?"
The new airspace does not facilitate an increase in movements, what it does do, is simply to preserve safety, because you must be well aware, the previous inbound route off the STAR interacted with the CPT SID directly above Luton airport?
Antilla, could you please in detail explain how the additional airspace has facilitated an increase in movements please, I for one would be keen to read and learn?
The recent growth at Luton would have occurred regardless of the introduction of the additional airspace to the north west of the airport, so would the 'risk' of incidents close to the airport overhead. Believe me, if Luton wanted extra airspace to facilitate projected growth, its request would have been thrown out on day 1 by the CAA! Antilla, trust me, the CAA will not allow this on a local basis, thus the extreme difficulty in obtaining additional controlled airspace by UK airports.
Last edited by Buster the Bear; 20th Jun 2006 at 09:15.