DUNDEE
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Dundee City Council will pay half the cost of operating Dundee Aiport’s new stand-in service to Stansted, The Courier understands.
Council to stump up half the cost of Dundee Airport?s new Stansted service - Dundee / Local / News / The Courier
Council to stump up half the cost of Dundee Airport?s new Stansted service - Dundee / Local / News / The Courier
Does that mean that Govt is effectively subsidising a PSO route before the route can be formally advertised in the relevant UK / EU official journal and a PSO designation exists ?
Do EU rules allow this ? I can't think of anyone who could afford to and would want to be seen disputing this in public, but sounds like it's possibly open to being challenged in court somewhere...
Do EU rules allow this ? I can't think of anyone who could afford to and would want to be seen disputing this in public, but sounds like it's possibly open to being challenged in court somewhere...
Last edited by davidjohnson6; 23rd Jan 2014 at 15:54.
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It certainly seems questionable that DND-LON should qualify for a PSO, but the European rules on the matter are rather vague in parts so they can be bent to suit DND. Wrt to government (note UK government) policy on this, I believe this is the relevant link:
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...y-guidance.pdf
It would seem that it is UK Gov policy is to use PSO's to maintain (but not expand) regional routes to LON where there is a danger they may be lost. Funding to back this up appears to be available from the UK Gov.
As far as objections go, I think DND is so small that it's not worth bothering about, even if there is a case to answer. I think a few Dundee taxpayers might have an issue though.........
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...y-guidance.pdf
It would seem that it is UK Gov policy is to use PSO's to maintain (but not expand) regional routes to LON where there is a danger they may be lost. Funding to back this up appears to be available from the UK Gov.
As far as objections go, I think DND is so small that it's not worth bothering about, even if there is a case to answer. I think a few Dundee taxpayers might have an issue though.........
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Well Ryanair manage to do this all over Europe from other regional airports so i'm sure there is a way to help fund the flights.
While it might not qualify for full PSO status, you seem to be able to do things under the "marketing support" umbrella, from the stories we have heard about Ryanair.
Other things you can do would be give free handling and landing, so the airline itself is not getting any subsidy directly.
While it might not qualify for full PSO status, you seem to be able to do things under the "marketing support" umbrella, from the stories we have heard about Ryanair.
Other things you can do would be give free handling and landing, so the airline itself is not getting any subsidy directly.
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STN was an interesting choice but appreciate that the operating costs compared to LCY would be far more favourable.
Having a quick look at access to London:
The Stansted Express runs every 15 minutes and reaches London Liverpool Street in 47 minutes. Trains depart from Stansted Airport rail station, situated directly below the terminal. London Underground connections are available at Liverpool Street and Tottenham Hale (on the Stansted Express line).
Service/ Destination/ Frequency/ Journey time /fare
National Express A6/ London Victoria / Up to every 15 min/ 85-100 min/£10.50
National Express A9/ Stratford and London Liverpool Street/ Up to every 20 min/ 45-60min/ £8.50
Terravision A50/ London Victoria/ Up to every 20 min / 75 min/
£9
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Terravision A51/ London Liverpool Street/ Up to every 30min / 55 min/
£9
Terravision A52/ London Stratford/ Up to every 30 min/ 40 min/
From £6
easyBus EB2/ Baker Street, London / Up to every 20 min /75 min/ From £2
So on average you need to add an hour on to your trip to reach central London. According to Google maps, a drive between DND and EDI is approximately 1hr 20min on average. The train to EDI Waverley is on average 1hr 30min.
In other words there really isnt that much of a difference. I think I would rather fly from my local airport where my travel time in the morning would be reduced, my check-in time much easier and security/arrivals more efficient and sort out a commute once I reach STN. Also for the brave and trusting traveller, so many onward connections with other carriers. For the sake of maybe a £9 Ryanair flight I would take the risk on a two booking multi-sector trip and just hope my Loganair flight isnt disrupted.
Having a quick look at access to London:
The Stansted Express runs every 15 minutes and reaches London Liverpool Street in 47 minutes. Trains depart from Stansted Airport rail station, situated directly below the terminal. London Underground connections are available at Liverpool Street and Tottenham Hale (on the Stansted Express line).
Service/ Destination/ Frequency/ Journey time /fare
National Express A6/ London Victoria / Up to every 15 min/ 85-100 min/£10.50
National Express A9/ Stratford and London Liverpool Street/ Up to every 20 min/ 45-60min/ £8.50
Terravision A50/ London Victoria/ Up to every 20 min / 75 min/
£9
£9
From £6
easyBus EB2/ Baker Street, London / Up to every 20 min /75 min/ From £2
So on average you need to add an hour on to your trip to reach central London. According to Google maps, a drive between DND and EDI is approximately 1hr 20min on average. The train to EDI Waverley is on average 1hr 30min.
In other words there really isnt that much of a difference. I think I would rather fly from my local airport where my travel time in the morning would be reduced, my check-in time much easier and security/arrivals more efficient and sort out a commute once I reach STN. Also for the brave and trusting traveller, so many onward connections with other carriers. For the sake of maybe a £9 Ryanair flight I would take the risk on a two booking multi-sector trip and just hope my Loganair flight isnt disrupted.
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Dundee City Council has today put out a tender for a PSO-supported scheduled service to/from London. Minimum twice daily schedule, min 30 seat aircraft, max £175 single fare, start date 1/7/14.
Amazing that they've got PSO support for this. They'll be subbing business jets next.
Amazing that they've got PSO support for this. They'll be subbing business jets next.
Southend is listed as a valid London airport for this particular PSO... better call Aer Arann !
Definition of London airport for the PSO is:
Does that mean Minoan are in with a chance by flying to London Oxford airport ?
Definition of London airport for the PSO is:
any airport within a 60 minute rail journey from/to a London Zone 1 station and designated as London according to IATA city code.
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Does that mean Minoan are in with a chance by flying to London Oxford airport ?
Also it would be difficult to make a 60 minute rail journey to London, there isn't a station at Kidlington airport. The village station was axed by Beeching.
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Based on the "minimum 30 seats", I think it's Loganair's to lose. They can base a Saab 340 or Dornier at DND with no difficulty. Aer Arann would have to operate an ATR42 with higher operating costs, and I don't think that discounted charges at SEN would offset those higher costs, unless Stobart simply wants to buy the business.
Eastern's Jetstreams are 29 seats so are excluded - they would need to move up to jets (too expensive) or 50-seat Saab 2000s (ditto). Bmi regional's jets are too expensive.
There's a chance that one or more random European regional operators may pitch in a bid too, as new PSOs don't come up that often and they represent good (and above all certain) money. But I stick with Loganair as the most likely by far.
Now one interesting aspect is that every carrier is likely to have to base an aircraft in DND, because that's where the early-morning demand originates. (I haven't seen the tender so don't know if this is explicitly stated). For a twice-daily service with a morning round-trip and an evening round-trip, that means the aircraft is sitting around in the middle of the day - but the PSO (i.e. the taxpayer) will usually be covering the aircraft capital costs and the crew costs, so the airline would be able to operate an extra route in the middle of the day at a very low cost base (basically just needs to pay for fuel and nav/landing charges and a bit more for profit). So perhaps this PSO could be the catalyst for a further (indirectly subsidised) route from DND?
Eastern's Jetstreams are 29 seats so are excluded - they would need to move up to jets (too expensive) or 50-seat Saab 2000s (ditto). Bmi regional's jets are too expensive.
There's a chance that one or more random European regional operators may pitch in a bid too, as new PSOs don't come up that often and they represent good (and above all certain) money. But I stick with Loganair as the most likely by far.
Now one interesting aspect is that every carrier is likely to have to base an aircraft in DND, because that's where the early-morning demand originates. (I haven't seen the tender so don't know if this is explicitly stated). For a twice-daily service with a morning round-trip and an evening round-trip, that means the aircraft is sitting around in the middle of the day - but the PSO (i.e. the taxpayer) will usually be covering the aircraft capital costs and the crew costs, so the airline would be able to operate an extra route in the middle of the day at a very low cost base (basically just needs to pay for fuel and nav/landing charges and a bit more for profit). So perhaps this PSO could be the catalyst for a further (indirectly subsidised) route from DND?
one or more random European regional operators may pitch in a bid too
Yes, I'm scratching around, trying to think of obscure EU airlines here with aircraft in the 30-40 seat range
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Now one interesting aspect is that every carrier is likely to have to base an aircraft in DND, because that's where the early-morning demand originates. (I haven't seen the tender so don't know if this is explicitly stated)
Monday to Friday, first arrival into London no later than 0830.
Monday to Friday, last departure from London to be no earlier than 1800.
Monday to Friday, first arrival into Dundee no later than 1100.
Sunday, departure from London to be no earlier than 1800
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Sun Air are a reasonable outfit, few MAN-BLL on several occasions using their Do 328 jets and on 1 occasion Do 328 110 TP. Not sure how the jet version compares with the TP. heard different views on which is more economical.
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Maybe Sunair using MHS hardware? MHS does a lot of flying on behalf of Sun Air and as they are a German outfit, it makes little difference for them if they dump their employees in the middle of Jutland or Scotland.
Sun Air itself is apparently stretched as a lack of FRJs stops them from opening BLL-ZRH.
Sun Air itself is apparently stretched as a lack of FRJs stops them from opening BLL-ZRH.
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Interesting that the tender mentions LHR-DND, the triumph of hope over reality.
Another case of EU interfering where it has no business and micro-managing the tiniest details. Whatever happened to "subsidiarity".
Another case of EU interfering where it has no business and micro-managing the tiniest details. Whatever happened to "subsidiarity".
Frank - the rules around Govt tenders being written and publicised give failed bidders opportunity to sue when a Govt body makes a mistake or is seen to discriminate unfairly between private companies. Perhaps listing Heathrow as a valid option of London airport is nothing more than an a**e-covering exercise in this regard so as to prove Dundee is following Govt procedures strictly, or at least can claim a defence against discrimination in a potential litigation outcome ?