DUNDEE
BALaddy has pointed out that Cityjet have pulled all flights between London City and Dundee effective 30 March 2014. Game over for passenger ops at Dundee ?
In the 12 months from 01 Dec 2012 to 30 Nov 2013, CAA stats indicate the airport saw 27,944 passengers. For every 1 passenger at Dundee, Edinburgh saw 347 passengers
Edit - seems to be confirmed - BBC News - Dundee Airport's only scheduled flights to end
In the 12 months from 01 Dec 2012 to 30 Nov 2013, CAA stats indicate the airport saw 27,944 passengers. For every 1 passenger at Dundee, Edinburgh saw 347 passengers
Edit - seems to be confirmed - BBC News - Dundee Airport's only scheduled flights to end
Last edited by davidjohnson6; 23rd Dec 2013 at 10:44.
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"The Department of Transport has approved a Public Service Obligation for the council to help attract a new operator for the route.”
Dundee Airport set to lose London route - The Scotsman
May help?
Dundee Airport set to lose London route - The Scotsman
May help?
Why is Dundee apparently worthy of a PSO route despite being relatively near a major airport, Edinburgh, with almost 10m passengers yet Plymouth was not worthy ?
I just struggle to see why it's socially desirable for Dundee to need an airlink to London for 28,000 pax per year
I just struggle to see why it's socially desirable for Dundee to need an airlink to London for 28,000 pax per year
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If there are multiple bids for the PSO, the evaluation process will then have to assess which is better value, a service to LGW costing £y or a service to LCY costing £z. There'll be good money for consultants to build that assessment algorithm, assigning values to different London airports!
DJ6 -
I suspect your answer lies in the fact that Dundee is in the Socialist People's Republic of Bonnie Scotland (ruled by the SNP) whereas Plymouth is firmly in England.
Why is Dundee apparently worthy of a PSO route despite being relatively near a major airport, Edinburgh, with almost 10m passengers yet Plymouth was not worthy ?
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"CabinCrewe, wrong. Look it up"
Read my post again, particularly the word "should", as in my opinion.
"Before a PSO can be imposed, Regulation 2408/92 requires that the route must:
• be to a "peripheral region", or be to a "development region", or be a "thin route to any regional airport"
• be “vital to the economic development of the region"
• and require a PSO to ensure the "adequate" provision of scheduled air services – in assessing “adequacy”, including other forms of transport
Read my post again, particularly the word "should", as in my opinion.
"Before a PSO can be imposed, Regulation 2408/92 requires that the route must:
• be to a "peripheral region", or be to a "development region", or be a "thin route to any regional airport"
• be “vital to the economic development of the region"
• and require a PSO to ensure the "adequate" provision of scheduled air services – in assessing “adequacy”, including other forms of transport
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It's a shame DND can't really sustain anything passenger wise.
In the 4 years I lived in the city I only know 3 people who actually used the airport, myself being one of them and even I only used it once, from BHD-DND and that was a pretty pennyl at something like £70 for a one way ticket (booked 3 weeks prior and only 7 of us on the plane). EDI had cheaper options with EZY and BE as well, but the cost of traveling up from there would have meant I'd saved very little in reality and spent a lot more time.
I saw Whoosh come and go and then the launch of the Loganair routes, which I thought would do well, but clearly not well enough. I'm quite surprised to see the LCY route being dropped, but then CityJet are not in the best of positions right now as it is so I'm sure DND is hardly a must have for them.
I don't understand why routes such as BHD didn't work. The number of Irish students in Dundee is astounding. A DUB route would have made sense to me too, but that was never attempted either. MAN and BHX seemed like odd choices, I'm not sure I met anyone from those areas of the UK when I lived in the city, not did I know of any business who used the routes.
Oh well, I'm sure it's not the end of DND, it's a busy place with flying clubs and the odd executive jet for St Andrews or Carnoustie. EDI may be an hour away, but DND is a large enough place to have a strong outbound market and with 2 universities and a myriad of computer and games companies in the city I would have thought a strong inbound market too. I suppose the right combination just hasn't been found.
In the 4 years I lived in the city I only know 3 people who actually used the airport, myself being one of them and even I only used it once, from BHD-DND and that was a pretty pennyl at something like £70 for a one way ticket (booked 3 weeks prior and only 7 of us on the plane). EDI had cheaper options with EZY and BE as well, but the cost of traveling up from there would have meant I'd saved very little in reality and spent a lot more time.
I saw Whoosh come and go and then the launch of the Loganair routes, which I thought would do well, but clearly not well enough. I'm quite surprised to see the LCY route being dropped, but then CityJet are not in the best of positions right now as it is so I'm sure DND is hardly a must have for them.
I don't understand why routes such as BHD didn't work. The number of Irish students in Dundee is astounding. A DUB route would have made sense to me too, but that was never attempted either. MAN and BHX seemed like odd choices, I'm not sure I met anyone from those areas of the UK when I lived in the city, not did I know of any business who used the routes.
Oh well, I'm sure it's not the end of DND, it's a busy place with flying clubs and the odd executive jet for St Andrews or Carnoustie. EDI may be an hour away, but DND is a large enough place to have a strong outbound market and with 2 universities and a myriad of computer and games companies in the city I would have thought a strong inbound market too. I suppose the right combination just hasn't been found.
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EDI may be an hour away, but DND is a large enough place to have a strong outbound market and with 2 universities and a myriad of computer and games companies in the city I would have thought a strong inbound market too. I suppose the right combination just hasn't been found
LGS6753
I suspect your answer lies in the fact that Dundee is in the Socialist People's Republic of Bonnie Scotland (ruled by the SNP) whereas Plymouth is firmly in England.
I suspect your answer lies in the fact that Dundee is in the Socialist People's Republic of Bonnie Scotland (ruled by the SNP) whereas Plymouth is firmly in England.
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...cess-to-london
As you will see, as summarised clearly in paras 13 and 14, the UK government policy is to use PSO's to protect air access to London from markets such as DND and they appear to have earmarked funding to support this.
So, I respectfully suggest that you check your facts before making such political statements.
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I agree that a larger runway and terminal would probably be beneficial to DND, but that's not going to happen any time soon, if ever. The land on which the airport is based is mostly reclaimed. Although there is space either side, no one is going to fork out money for something they may take a very long time to get a return on.
The runway is aligned as such that there is barely any noise from aircraft for the residents who live near the airport, which is fairly rare these days. I know, I used to live just off the Perth Road and saw aircraft on finals every day from my kitchen window, but never had an issue with noise, even when the jets came in!
The runway is aligned as such that there is barely any noise from aircraft for the residents who live near the airport, which is fairly rare these days. I know, I used to live just off the Perth Road and saw aircraft on finals every day from my kitchen window, but never had an issue with noise, even when the jets came in!
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Seems it might be a nice fit for FlyBe's Q400s / E-Jets but obviously they haven't been enjoying the best of times up here lately either with the Scottish base closures..
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If you have a normal sized runway then you start to chip away at EDI and the market segments again making it harder to invest in world class facilities.
It's bad enough having EDI vs GLA without trying to big up DND. The one thing we don't need is another commercial airport in the central belt. DND has never been commercially succesful and with EDI so close makes no sense in tryin to be. If Loganair of all people cannot make a go of it, there's no point in using taxpayers money to subsidise something which has never and cannot make money. It's not the Highlands and EDI is moments away. Dundee airfield would happily remain open I am sure but not for airline passengers.
It's bad enough having EDI vs GLA without trying to big up DND. The one thing we don't need is another commercial airport in the central belt. DND has never been commercially succesful and with EDI so close makes no sense in tryin to be. If Loganair of all people cannot make a go of it, there's no point in using taxpayers money to subsidise something which has never and cannot make money. It's not the Highlands and EDI is moments away. Dundee airfield would happily remain open I am sure but not for airline passengers.
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The prime times for a Dundee-London service are southbound first thing in the morning, northbound in the early evening (the LCY-DND evening flight was always later than ideal, because of aircraft rotation and in particular to save on LCY charges by not landing until 20.00 and thus not leaving until 20.25-20.30).
The 4-sector pattern you suggest couldn't leave DND until about 08.15 (assuming a departure from DUB about 06.30, if slots were magically available). That's too late for business passengers, who wouldn't make it to central London until well after 11. Meanwhile the return SEN-DND in late morning would be a real dog in terms of traffic and yield.
The DUB-DND and DND-DUB flights would connect to and from JFK and BOS, true, but the local market is just too small. Is there really a better transatlantic profitability potential out of DND than out of (for example) LBA or EMA?
I've answered your question at some length to try to give an indication of the factors that have to be taken into account by real-world schedulers. The fact that these sectors are operationally possible doesn't make them a commercially attractive option.
Best wishes for Christmas and the New Year,
C.
Fit like min?
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You hoping they do B-B-B, or do you know this for a fact.
Loganair commented as follows in the Courier last month re Dundee, partly specific to the Belfast & Brum routes that had been previously axed:
'Executive chairman David Harrison said his firm’s Dundee-based offering had struggling to compete with the range of services on offer from Edinburgh.
“The trouble we had was always really in having enough passengers from Dundee to make services viable there,” he said.
“There is a market in Dundee for people who want to travel on business, but unfortunately there isn’t enough of one to fill the aircraft day-to-day at the price we need to make services attractive.
“When people can get low-cost flights from Edinburgh to such a wide range of destinations it does make things difficult.
“We tried all the things we could try but, despite everything, we just couldn’t make it work.”
He said the economics of the modern aviation industry demand planes fly all day: an impractical proposal for the limited route craft which had been based at Dundee.
“It’s something we did with great reluctance, because we’re aware it wasn’t good news for Dundee to lose those services,” Mr Harrison added.
“But in running the service in Dundee, we were not covering the costs — and it wasn’t just by a small amount, it was a significant shortfall.” '
Don't get me wrong - if Loganair think they can make it work, then all power to them!
Loganair commented as follows in the Courier last month re Dundee, partly specific to the Belfast & Brum routes that had been previously axed:
'Executive chairman David Harrison said his firm’s Dundee-based offering had struggling to compete with the range of services on offer from Edinburgh.
“The trouble we had was always really in having enough passengers from Dundee to make services viable there,” he said.
“There is a market in Dundee for people who want to travel on business, but unfortunately there isn’t enough of one to fill the aircraft day-to-day at the price we need to make services attractive.
“When people can get low-cost flights from Edinburgh to such a wide range of destinations it does make things difficult.
“We tried all the things we could try but, despite everything, we just couldn’t make it work.”
He said the economics of the modern aviation industry demand planes fly all day: an impractical proposal for the limited route craft which had been based at Dundee.
“It’s something we did with great reluctance, because we’re aware it wasn’t good news for Dundee to lose those services,” Mr Harrison added.
“But in running the service in Dundee, we were not covering the costs — and it wasn’t just by a small amount, it was a significant shortfall.” '
Don't get me wrong - if Loganair think they can make it work, then all power to them!
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Richard, SA always turned profit on the DND/LCY route, till it was destroyed by Citijet, with the right timings and good marketing, this route can be profitable, Merlyn Suckling proved that.