HEATHROW
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LHR is, as much as you argue about MAN, GLA, STN, still the most important airport in the UK. It sucks, but it has been traditionally the ideal airport for legacy carriers to go into. But you will still find people on the M40/M4/M3 corridors driving to STN or LTN for a better airport experience (although it goes beyond me why STN would be better... LTN yes, but STN? No.) - bypassing LHR or even LGW altogether.
The biggest problem I see with Rwy 27/09C is that it brings the infrastructure to LHR to creaking point (and it already is there). HEX is not bad, but LU is shyte, and the CBS is also utter crap (by virtue of being stuck in the middle of the "roundabout" that circles past T1/2/3 and not being able to expand). The requirement for people from everywhere else to have to deal with the M25/M4 without a proper system that makes travel there easy makes LHR the pits for travellers outside the traditional 10-20 mile radius for LHR. LGW and STN have the same problem as LHR - lack of expansion capability and lack of options for high-speed transport (motorways included). LGW is nobbled by the BAA agreement with WSCC, STN is getting stick from the commuters living around there.
I admit, I love trains, and I actually like sitting down on a train for a nice point-to-point trip. But the problem for LHR is that you cannot catch a fast train to LHR, but instead you have to go into Paddington or switch at Reading for Paddington, catch the HEX and spend 15 minutes going the other way, or catch an 'intermediate' service to connect with the every-30-minutes 'Heathrow Connect' service out of Slough.
If 09/27C happens, I would expect BAA or whoever to start a very high-frequency bus/train service from West Drayton/Hayes&Harlington into LHR, and FGW/SouthWest/TL/London OG actually stopping there on their fast services, or else people will continue to hate the place.
As far as T'North goes, NCL and MAN could do some really good business, especially when other legacy carriers use them as bases or connector points for their flights. A colleague who lives near NCL has used that airport almost exclusively, connecting into AMS thanks to KL's good connections from NCL. MAN and LPL are similar for some of my other colleagues who fly out of LPL to the continent and Ireland, granted, it's mostly LCC's out of there, but again it could provide alternatives to the airports on the continent because no-one wants to spend time flying from LPL to LHR to somewhere else... precisely because LHR is so crap as far as the pax experience is concerned. If NWI were to expand in a similar fashion for KL and the roads to NWI were better (the A14 between Mildenhall and Thetford is murder, as is the A47), NWI would be an alternative to STN for the people in the Fens and Suffolk (or even as far as Grantham/Lincoln). But going west (i.e. USA), nothing north of the Watford Gap has the cachet that LHR has.
Anyway... the third runway will only make sense if there is significant investment in the other transport options into LHR (NOT just road) and a raison d'être for people to travel to LHR instead of connecting into AMS, FRA or CDG, but since that's not happening (or even planned to happen), I'd vote it down because of the additional strain.
S.
The biggest problem I see with Rwy 27/09C is that it brings the infrastructure to LHR to creaking point (and it already is there). HEX is not bad, but LU is shyte, and the CBS is also utter crap (by virtue of being stuck in the middle of the "roundabout" that circles past T1/2/3 and not being able to expand). The requirement for people from everywhere else to have to deal with the M25/M4 without a proper system that makes travel there easy makes LHR the pits for travellers outside the traditional 10-20 mile radius for LHR. LGW and STN have the same problem as LHR - lack of expansion capability and lack of options for high-speed transport (motorways included). LGW is nobbled by the BAA agreement with WSCC, STN is getting stick from the commuters living around there.
I admit, I love trains, and I actually like sitting down on a train for a nice point-to-point trip. But the problem for LHR is that you cannot catch a fast train to LHR, but instead you have to go into Paddington or switch at Reading for Paddington, catch the HEX and spend 15 minutes going the other way, or catch an 'intermediate' service to connect with the every-30-minutes 'Heathrow Connect' service out of Slough.
If 09/27C happens, I would expect BAA or whoever to start a very high-frequency bus/train service from West Drayton/Hayes&Harlington into LHR, and FGW/SouthWest/TL/London OG actually stopping there on their fast services, or else people will continue to hate the place.
As far as T'North goes, NCL and MAN could do some really good business, especially when other legacy carriers use them as bases or connector points for their flights. A colleague who lives near NCL has used that airport almost exclusively, connecting into AMS thanks to KL's good connections from NCL. MAN and LPL are similar for some of my other colleagues who fly out of LPL to the continent and Ireland, granted, it's mostly LCC's out of there, but again it could provide alternatives to the airports on the continent because no-one wants to spend time flying from LPL to LHR to somewhere else... precisely because LHR is so crap as far as the pax experience is concerned. If NWI were to expand in a similar fashion for KL and the roads to NWI were better (the A14 between Mildenhall and Thetford is murder, as is the A47), NWI would be an alternative to STN for the people in the Fens and Suffolk (or even as far as Grantham/Lincoln). But going west (i.e. USA), nothing north of the Watford Gap has the cachet that LHR has.
Anyway... the third runway will only make sense if there is significant investment in the other transport options into LHR (NOT just road) and a raison d'être for people to travel to LHR instead of connecting into AMS, FRA or CDG, but since that's not happening (or even planned to happen), I'd vote it down because of the additional strain.
S.
Last edited by VAFFPAX; 3rd Nov 2008 at 03:05.
Trains
Does anyone have details of recent studies which look at the possibility of integrating Heathrow more into the UK rail network - adding connectivity chords where necessary, similiar to that done with CDG or AMS ?
I'm thinking about building an extra stretch of main line from Hanwell to Slough that goes via Heathrow so long distance trains from Paddington could stop at Heathrow on their way to Bristol / Oxford / Exeter, as well as cross-country trains from Birmingham and the north stopping on their way to Sussex.
A good chunk of such a piece of main line would have to be in a tunnel, but is 10 miles of well-engineered tunnel not involving a major river, the sea or a city centre really that expensive ? Trains would just divert from current routes, so could maybe even avoid buying new trainsets.
There's probably something I haven't thought of which makes this all completely unfeasible, but for the moment, I can't think of what that factor is.
I'm thinking about building an extra stretch of main line from Hanwell to Slough that goes via Heathrow so long distance trains from Paddington could stop at Heathrow on their way to Bristol / Oxford / Exeter, as well as cross-country trains from Birmingham and the north stopping on their way to Sussex.
A good chunk of such a piece of main line would have to be in a tunnel, but is 10 miles of well-engineered tunnel not involving a major river, the sea or a city centre really that expensive ? Trains would just divert from current routes, so could maybe even avoid buying new trainsets.
There's probably something I haven't thought of which makes this all completely unfeasible, but for the moment, I can't think of what that factor is.
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Large segments of the erstwhile British empire, from the North Americas to Australasia and all points therein, still need to head into London to sort out a variety of their issues. This one factor alone continues to make Heathrow/London something like a "compulsory waypoint" on really odd routes like:-
India - Pakistan - Bangladesh
USA - Ireland
Cyprus - Cyprus
South Africa - Zimbabwe
Chagos - Mauritius
Papua NG - Australia/New Zealand
Timor vs Timor
Singapore vs Malaysia (and till a few years ago, Singapore vs Singapore)
Sri Lanka vs North Sri Lanka
Saudia Arabia by itself
UAE by themselves
Egypt - Israel - Syria
Kurdistan - Turkey
Large parts of Africa
Eyl to Luxembourg
And so on and so forth.
In addition, the crowds at T3/T4 and T5 are really thin nowadays, even the evening peak hour security rush has more people at Krispy Kreme than at the Security Line at T3, for example, so maybe a 3rd runway won't really ever be required.
India - Pakistan - Bangladesh
USA - Ireland
Cyprus - Cyprus
South Africa - Zimbabwe
Chagos - Mauritius
Papua NG - Australia/New Zealand
Timor vs Timor
Singapore vs Malaysia (and till a few years ago, Singapore vs Singapore)
Sri Lanka vs North Sri Lanka
Saudia Arabia by itself
UAE by themselves
Egypt - Israel - Syria
Kurdistan - Turkey
Large parts of Africa
Eyl to Luxembourg
And so on and so forth.
In addition, the crowds at T3/T4 and T5 are really thin nowadays, even the evening peak hour security rush has more people at Krispy Kreme than at the Security Line at T3, for example, so maybe a 3rd runway won't really ever be required.
There is a plan to bulid a rail link directly in to T5.
Here is the website The AirTrack Forum - What is AirTrack
Unfortunately we will have to wait (why
) until 2013/4 to see this in operation.............
Here is the website The AirTrack Forum - What is AirTrack
Unfortunately we will have to wait (why
) until 2013/4 to see this in operation.............
Junior trash
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Does anyone have details of recent studies which look at the possibility of integrating Heathrow more into the UK rail network - adding connectivity chords where necessary, similiar to that done with CDG or AMS ?
Some of the press and the Conservatives seem to see this as an alternative to the new runway, I think its vital the 2 are built together.
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I like Arup's research into this... the M4/Wales corridor for services out of Paddington are currently aligned in parallel 1 mile north of the M4 near LHR; the longest bit for HEX to travel (of its 15 minute journey) is the trip from PAD to HAY, west of which it branches off to tunnel through underneath the M4, the M4 spur etc into T1/2/3 (CBS) and then T4/5.
AirTrack suggests a 6 trains an hour connection, allows for 2 trains an hour from Reading, Guildford, and Woking. It's a start, but is that enough? Considering that there are some services into Victoria (to connect to GEX) run every 15 minutes, I don't know if it would be.
But at least the thought is already there... it's just the time frame that stinks (unless that's the same timeframe for 09/27C).
S.
AirTrack suggests a 6 trains an hour connection, allows for 2 trains an hour from Reading, Guildford, and Woking. It's a start, but is that enough? Considering that there are some services into Victoria (to connect to GEX) run every 15 minutes, I don't know if it would be.
But at least the thought is already there... it's just the time frame that stinks (unless that's the same timeframe for 09/27C).
S.
mech assassin
Building 4km of track along an already existing rail-bed shouldn't take 5 years!!
The Airtrack platform/station at T5 was preplanned and was built along with the HEX connection so that's ready now......
'cause they've got to build it first?
The Airtrack platform/station at T5 was preplanned and was built along with the HEX connection so that's ready now......
Junior trash
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AirTrack suggests a 6 trains an hour connection, allows for 2 trains an hour from Reading, Guildford, and Woking. It's a start, but is that enough? Considering that there are some services into Victoria (to connect to GEX) run every 15 minutes, I don't know if it would be.
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You're correct, sorry. The Guildford services run via Woking. 3 or 4 services per hour for each of the Guildford/Waterloo routes would definitely make a difference, especially when Guildford/Clapham is upgraded to make it easier for people with luggage. GEX does not stop at Clapham at the moment, but would that make it easier to connect if it did? I'd think so.
S.
S.
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LGWAlan, so is HEX, but both GEX and HEX are well-equipped for luggage-wielding travellers. Currently East-West and North-South connections are not luggage-friendly, so more luggage-friendly transport would make things a LOT more attractive for people (at a price).
Airtrack would probably be just as well-equipped as HEX and GEX are because it again is designed for travellers. I won't talk about the Stansted Express - its interior is, compared to the other two, a disgrace. Luton doesn't even have its own express service, you end up on a grubby semi-fast Capital Connect if you're lucky.
When CrossRail finally takes off, STN would be connected to CrossRail at Liverpool Street, requiring a change at Farringdon for LGW (40 minutes) and LTN (50 minutes). Heathrow would be a straight run of 35 - 40 minutes on CrossRail from Liverpool Street.
S.
Airtrack would probably be just as well-equipped as HEX and GEX are because it again is designed for travellers. I won't talk about the Stansted Express - its interior is, compared to the other two, a disgrace. Luton doesn't even have its own express service, you end up on a grubby semi-fast Capital Connect if you're lucky.
When CrossRail finally takes off, STN would be connected to CrossRail at Liverpool Street, requiring a change at Farringdon for LGW (40 minutes) and LTN (50 minutes). Heathrow would be a straight run of 35 - 40 minutes on CrossRail from Liverpool Street.
S.
Paxing All Over The World
£230m boost for cross-London rail project
By Peter Woodman, PA
Tuesday, 4 November 2008
A £16 billion cross-city rail scheme got a welcome boost today when airport operator BAA agreed to inject £230 million into the project. This will enable the cross-London Crossrail route to link with Heathrow airport in west London.
There will be four fast-train services for the majority of the day with passengers being able to travel from Heathrow to central London, the City, Canary Wharf in Docklands, Shenfield in Essex and Abbey Wood in south London.
/// Article continues ...
£230m boost for cross-London rail project - Home News, UK - The Independent
At this rate, we will need a separate thread for Crossrail.
By Peter Woodman, PA
Tuesday, 4 November 2008
A £16 billion cross-city rail scheme got a welcome boost today when airport operator BAA agreed to inject £230 million into the project. This will enable the cross-London Crossrail route to link with Heathrow airport in west London.
There will be four fast-train services for the majority of the day with passengers being able to travel from Heathrow to central London, the City, Canary Wharf in Docklands, Shenfield in Essex and Abbey Wood in south London.
/// Article continues ...
£230m boost for cross-London rail project - Home News, UK - The Independent
At this rate, we will need a separate thread for Crossrail.
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If crossrail gets built I will dance naked around Unst in the middle of winter. There are two hopes at present; one of them is Bob.
Airtrack will come first as the application for TWA order will be going in next year. There will be a connection from both the Reading and Waterloo ends with the International platforms at Waterloo (currently vacant and rusting) being used. There is also built in a plan to link via a northern spur to the GWML (also wired) which will be more feasible in the long run, as the route via Wokingham to Reading (and then change) will be long, slow and tedious.
Airtrack will come first as the application for TWA order will be going in next year. There will be a connection from both the Reading and Waterloo ends with the International platforms at Waterloo (currently vacant and rusting) being used. There is also built in a plan to link via a northern spur to the GWML (also wired) which will be more feasible in the long run, as the route via Wokingham to Reading (and then change) will be long, slow and tedious.
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Leaving aside the choo choos and naked dancing lunatics for a moment, NWA is reported to be ending SEA-LHR in January. This follows Uniteds termination of DEN-LHR and Air France ending LAX-LHR.
Well done BMI for not getting involved at this point, I think a better decision day by day.
Well done BMI for not getting involved at this point, I think a better decision day by day.
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Regarding train connections to the airports.
Quite often I see the trains from Brighton which run up from Clapham Junction to Willesden and Watford (they used to go on to Milton Keynes). They normally have no more passengers on board by the time they get to Watford than would fit in a taxi.
You can also see the Heathrow Connect, which is useful from Heathrow in as far as Ealing but then just duplicates other services on the last lap to Paddington.
A connection between these two, for which the groundworks are pretty much there anyway, would seem to offer a whole range of new opportunities, as well as eliminating some unnecessary train operation. From Brighton and Gatwick through Croydon, Clapham, Kensington, Shepherds Bush, Ealing, and on to Heathrow. This opens up all sorts of useful links like Ealing to Gatwick or Croydon to Heathrow. It is an efficient use of the train, because as those from Gatwick are getting off, those for Heathrow are getting on.
I guess however it is the sort of scheme which will not see the light of day because it does not involve big investment in civil engineering or new trains, so the major contractors and manufacturers who push such schemes along would not be interested.
Quite often I see the trains from Brighton which run up from Clapham Junction to Willesden and Watford (they used to go on to Milton Keynes). They normally have no more passengers on board by the time they get to Watford than would fit in a taxi.
You can also see the Heathrow Connect, which is useful from Heathrow in as far as Ealing but then just duplicates other services on the last lap to Paddington.
A connection between these two, for which the groundworks are pretty much there anyway, would seem to offer a whole range of new opportunities, as well as eliminating some unnecessary train operation. From Brighton and Gatwick through Croydon, Clapham, Kensington, Shepherds Bush, Ealing, and on to Heathrow. This opens up all sorts of useful links like Ealing to Gatwick or Croydon to Heathrow. It is an efficient use of the train, because as those from Gatwick are getting off, those for Heathrow are getting on.
I guess however it is the sort of scheme which will not see the light of day because it does not involve big investment in civil engineering or new trains, so the major contractors and manufacturers who push such schemes along would not be interested.
Paxing All Over The World
I only use the Watford/Clapham Junction/Gatwick/Brighton service about twice a year but you would be surprised by how busy it is. The northern end between Watford and west London is sometimes standing room only, as the service is just once an hour. It is a fabulous route and the best way for me to get to Gatwick. I am due to go to Brighton in the next ten days and will try to remember to check pax levels.
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You can also see the Heathrow Connect, which is useful from Heathrow in as far as Ealing but then just duplicates other services on the last lap to Paddington.