Jobs in Africa (2011 onwards) part 3.
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"Willing to work for any salary, willing to pay for type." You guys must be second rate, lousy pilots. REAL pilots that are competent and have enough determination and skills get hired and PAID to fly and get their rating PAID for. Hmmm, I'm not especially well qualified or skilled, so let me pay for a rating to put myself ahead of my fellow pilots so that now I force all pilots to start paying for their own rating to get a job. Losers. You're cutting your own throat and too stupid and/selfish to even realize it.
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4Runner...some pretty harsh words.
I think you living in the good old days. You know like our grandfathers would say...'When I was young...!' Blah blah blah get over yourself, your perfect ideals and pull your head out of the 80's. I wouldnt go bashing guys who pay for their own ratings considering you know nothing about personal circumstances. You sound like a jealous little girl calling people losers...grow up!
Am I saying I totally agree with the principle of paying for your ratings...no. But things are different now! There are sometimes no other options especially in an economy such as this. (Ever heard of supply and demand and a recession) Its all about being more marketable than the next guy. And NO it doesnt make you a lousy pilot, that is the most ridiculous generalisation ive ever heard.
So Mr. Clever, if they are cutting their own throats then tell me this. My friend has 3000 hours, mostly twin piston with a SA ATPL and a Grade II instructors rating. Any hope of her getting a job rests on getting turbine time of which she has to pay for a rating because without that rating she wont get the job on turbines to get turbine time. See the vicious cycle. So I ask you...what should she do? Oh yes of course...she is a REAL pilot now right and when she pays for her rating to try move up then she becomes a lousy selfish self mutilator?! (This isnt the only person I know BTW)
Maybe word your posts so you actually get your point across because Ive heard this argument 100 times and I know where you going where you probably have valid points...if youve been around the block then maybe offer advice to aspiring job hunters to actually help them refrain from cutting their own throats.
I think you living in the good old days. You know like our grandfathers would say...'When I was young...!' Blah blah blah get over yourself, your perfect ideals and pull your head out of the 80's. I wouldnt go bashing guys who pay for their own ratings considering you know nothing about personal circumstances. You sound like a jealous little girl calling people losers...grow up!
Am I saying I totally agree with the principle of paying for your ratings...no. But things are different now! There are sometimes no other options especially in an economy such as this. (Ever heard of supply and demand and a recession) Its all about being more marketable than the next guy. And NO it doesnt make you a lousy pilot, that is the most ridiculous generalisation ive ever heard.
So Mr. Clever, if they are cutting their own throats then tell me this. My friend has 3000 hours, mostly twin piston with a SA ATPL and a Grade II instructors rating. Any hope of her getting a job rests on getting turbine time of which she has to pay for a rating because without that rating she wont get the job on turbines to get turbine time. See the vicious cycle. So I ask you...what should she do? Oh yes of course...she is a REAL pilot now right and when she pays for her rating to try move up then she becomes a lousy selfish self mutilator?! (This isnt the only person I know BTW)
Maybe word your posts so you actually get your point across because Ive heard this argument 100 times and I know where you going where you probably have valid points...if youve been around the block then maybe offer advice to aspiring job hunters to actually help them refrain from cutting their own throats.
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Why do you think things are in this state to begin with. Those who paid for ratings and worked for peanuts gave the operators a stick with which to beat pilots, which they've used effectively to increase the barrier to entry for most. As for failing standards, 4runner is spot on. The one who gets the job is the one with money in his pocket to buy a rating, not the most qualified individual. Your friend is now in that situation created by the people to whom 4runner refers, people who have no problems screwing their colleagues.
The point you make regarding supply and demand is invalid. Influencing the balance by buying ratings skews the whole system and we end up with the problem we have today - plenty of low time pilots with expensive ratings but they're pretty much unemployable. The company I fly for has been stung in the past and will have nothing to do with them. You get the job based on your experience and suitability for the position. High time on type is a pre requisite, something that buying a rating won't provide.
Why do you think things are in this state to begin with. Those who paid for ratings and worked for peanuts gave the operators a stick with which to beat pilots, which they've used effectively to increase the barrier to entry for most. As for failing standards, 4runner is spot on. The one who gets the job is the one with money in his pocket to buy a rating, not the most qualified individual. Your friend is now in that situation created by the people to whom 4runner refers, people who have no problems screwing their colleagues.
The point you make regarding supply and demand is invalid. Influencing the balance by buying ratings skews the whole system and we end up with the problem we have today - plenty of low time pilots with expensive ratings but they're pretty much unemployable. The company I fly for has been stung in the past and will have nothing to do with them. You get the job based on your experience and suitability for the position. High time on type is a pre requisite, something that buying a rating won't provide.
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LOL, the good old days...I'm 31. No one ever takes responsibility for this whole P2F thing. It's always an excuse. Like, I have to because others did or blah blah blah. Now, Afrika is a little different than the rest of the world. Operators are sometimes prevented from paying for a foreigners training due to national labour regs and whatnot. But lemme ask you this amigo, do you really appreciate people from all over the world offering their services for free and/or reduced rates on a public forum while you or I may be looking for work as a PROFESSIONAL pilot??? And btw, your "friend" cannot find a job because others before her have effectively forced her to pay for a rating. Once again, take some ownership of the decisions our colleagues have made in their quest to fly bigger and better equipment.
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Sorry Twotter, I didn't see your post before I made mine. Spot on btw and ditto on previous experience with P2F jokers. We're having issues with ours right now. Another issue created by the jokers is the sense of entitlement. It's hard to make a good pilot out of someone whose first job involved being a customer.
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So then guys...lets have some solutions to the problem because you make it out to be the pilots fault solely but, in my experiences, its also the operators who ask for the ratings?! Its pointless debating who started this trend but it seems that most are following it! Its impossible to stop it IMHO and you are looking for the perfect world...unfortunately money is power. Its a fact as much as I hate it like you guys do. So to my original point, do you fight this trend at the detriment to yourself or do you work with it?! What are the solutions?! 
Lets be realistic here. And remember think about it from a young unemployed guys perspective who took out a loan for his Comm, busted his arse for three years while working nights at a bar and finally got his Comm only to realise guess what...you need a rating be it instructors or type! He doesnt know where it started or why...alll he knows is he needs a job! How can you get it...do you honestly think he cares about the bigger picture! Can you REALLY blame him?
I understand what you are saying but I am saying now what guys...are you suggesting that all pilots must stop this? Are you suggesting this is the sole problem for the rot! Well in an ideal world that would be the solution obviously, but thats never gonna happen...look at CX! Perfect example...
Lets be realistic here. And remember think about it from a young unemployed guys perspective who took out a loan for his Comm, busted his arse for three years while working nights at a bar and finally got his Comm only to realise guess what...you need a rating be it instructors or type! He doesnt know where it started or why...alll he knows is he needs a job! How can you get it...do you honestly think he cares about the bigger picture! Can you REALLY blame him?
I understand what you are saying but I am saying now what guys...are you suggesting that all pilots must stop this? Are you suggesting this is the sole problem for the rot! Well in an ideal world that would be the solution obviously, but thats never gonna happen...look at CX! Perfect example...
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Oh and 4runner come on...enough with the name calling. Jokers, losers...it just sounds like you are incredibly bitter! This has evolved into a conversation...
As to working for free...I detest it!!!! That is unacceptable but a whole different story to paying for a rating in the hope of getting a paid job.
As to working for free...I detest it!!!! That is unacceptable but a whole different story to paying for a rating in the hope of getting a paid job.
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This started with people who thought they could jump the queue and go straight onto a type for which they were not yet ready by buying a rating. The operators saw this as a gift and took full advantage of it. We have no one to blame but ourselves and we're the only ones who can fix it by refusing to play that game. Unfortunately for us and fortunately for the operators, they know pilots are their own worst enemies and the status quo will be maintained. Those who can afford a rating will be favoured over more qualified candidates. Meanwhile the standards continue to be eroded because of this.
This also affords you little or no protection as you're no more safe than a freelance pilot who can be ditched at any time. A bond protects both parties due to the financial implications of leaving an employer, or said employer getting rid of crews when things slow down a little.
Add to that the problem we're experiencing of crew who have jumped from light twin (with little more time than it took to gain a CPL) to a more complex type and become a starboard lookout without actually gaining any command or decision making skills. We then end up with people in command positions who lack the necessary background. This is one of the reasons some of the operators are now shying away from those who choose the short cut route. A few years ago a young lady was asked at an interview why she had no real twin piston time. Her reply to a very senior captain? "I don't need it as I went straight on to B200s." She didn't get the job.
Solutions? Unless people wake up and stop flooding the market with unemployable type rated low time pilots this will continue. Over supply and little demand make them worth not much more than the guy who cleans the bogs. Even giving the operators the idea you're willing to pay them for a type rating is akin to shooting yourself in the foot. We've handed it to them on a plate in the past and now they've come to expect it. It's not going to be fixed unless pilots stand together and that's the hardest part of all. This whole thing started with a few people willing to shaft their mates in this manner and people like that are still around.
This also affords you little or no protection as you're no more safe than a freelance pilot who can be ditched at any time. A bond protects both parties due to the financial implications of leaving an employer, or said employer getting rid of crews when things slow down a little.
Add to that the problem we're experiencing of crew who have jumped from light twin (with little more time than it took to gain a CPL) to a more complex type and become a starboard lookout without actually gaining any command or decision making skills. We then end up with people in command positions who lack the necessary background. This is one of the reasons some of the operators are now shying away from those who choose the short cut route. A few years ago a young lady was asked at an interview why she had no real twin piston time. Her reply to a very senior captain? "I don't need it as I went straight on to B200s." She didn't get the job.
Solutions? Unless people wake up and stop flooding the market with unemployable type rated low time pilots this will continue. Over supply and little demand make them worth not much more than the guy who cleans the bogs. Even giving the operators the idea you're willing to pay them for a type rating is akin to shooting yourself in the foot. We've handed it to them on a plate in the past and now they've come to expect it. It's not going to be fixed unless pilots stand together and that's the hardest part of all. This whole thing started with a few people willing to shaft their mates in this manner and people like that are still around.
Está servira para distraerle.
It would have been better were she to have said words extolling her good fortune tinged with regret at having missed a rite of passage. It's rather like going straight into the whore house without ever having experienced the trills of teenage love!
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Teenage love? You mean that awkward fumbling in the backseat of your mothers car? Why not go straight for the good stuff!!!
Back on topic. The problem now SRT is that the flight schools have picked up on this and is a way to make a quick buck.
"Here is our CPL course, it just contains the bare cpl package, you wont get a job on this, but here is our CPL + A320 rating and it will open doors for you all around the world!!!"
The young star eyed pilots who dream of a life in the airlines with air hostesses hanging off each arm as they strut into hotels around the world just fork over the cash.
They don't see it as shooting their other colleagues or themselves in the foot, they see it as the right path as that is what is painted for them.
Much like how it used to be that the only way you will get hours is instructing.
@ CVS, simple solution to your friends issue, is to go and apply at a company that operates her type of aircraft and has progression into bigger and better aircraft.
Its how they used to do it, and its how I'm doing it.
I've got 45yrs of flying ahead of me, whats the hurry to get up the pointy end of a jet and press the autopilot button.
Back on topic. The problem now SRT is that the flight schools have picked up on this and is a way to make a quick buck.
"Here is our CPL course, it just contains the bare cpl package, you wont get a job on this, but here is our CPL + A320 rating and it will open doors for you all around the world!!!"
The young star eyed pilots who dream of a life in the airlines with air hostesses hanging off each arm as they strut into hotels around the world just fork over the cash.
They don't see it as shooting their other colleagues or themselves in the foot, they see it as the right path as that is what is painted for them.
Much like how it used to be that the only way you will get hours is instructing.
@ CVS, simple solution to your friends issue, is to go and apply at a company that operates her type of aircraft and has progression into bigger and better aircraft.
Its how they used to do it, and its how I'm doing it.
I've got 45yrs of flying ahead of me, whats the hurry to get up the pointy end of a jet and press the autopilot button.
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Affirm...thats the problem! To get every pilot in this world to stick together is pathetically impossible...and even if that happened, all it takes is one toss to break the chain and we will all start scrambling like little mice! Unfortunately there will always be people willing to step on your head and drown you for your job...its human nature. So just to confirm, you dont have any credible, realistic solution then?
Just a quick thought...how could this be any worse than getting an instructors rating straight out of comm school? Surely this is a rating too and WORSE! Nobody ever creates a stink about that and its widely encouraged!!! You have 200 hour guys who, in my opinion, should never be teaching anybody how to fly until they can fly themselves! Add to that the fact that there is very little use of twin pistons for commercial ops these days (from what I can see) So, all things being equal...where to then...and if you are telling me that somebody now looses points for saying she went straight onto a B200, then I hang my head in shame!! Thats sad in itself...I hope it was the tone with which she said it that lost her the job!
Maybe we should just let it pan out and soon everybody will have turbine ratings and we will all be on level playing fields again...then itll be jet ratings that spill blood
Just a quick thought...how could this be any worse than getting an instructors rating straight out of comm school? Surely this is a rating too and WORSE! Nobody ever creates a stink about that and its widely encouraged!!! You have 200 hour guys who, in my opinion, should never be teaching anybody how to fly until they can fly themselves! Add to that the fact that there is very little use of twin pistons for commercial ops these days (from what I can see) So, all things being equal...where to then...and if you are telling me that somebody now looses points for saying she went straight onto a B200, then I hang my head in shame!! Thats sad in itself...I hope it was the tone with which she said it that lost her the job!
Maybe we should just let it pan out and soon everybody will have turbine ratings and we will all be on level playing fields again...then itll be jet ratings that spill blood
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@lilflyboy - well Im sure she has thought of that but as in my previous post, where do you find twin piston in ops where you can progress onto turbines? Not in very many places I dont think! Well, not with her types for sure!
Just to put the cat amongst the pidgeons - heres a job on a J41. Care to take the offer? Of course...you guys would all say no.
Just to put the cat amongst the pidgeons - heres a job on a J41. Care to take the offer? Of course...you guys would all say no.
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That is the credible realistic solution. No other way to do it. It involves pain but those who cocked it up in the first place were not prepared to do the hard yards so tried to sidestep that. Once again, pilots are their own worst enemies. In the past sprog pilots were mentored and assisted by senior folks. When they were warned of the consequences of buying ratings and the long term knock on effects, the senior guys were smart mouthed and told in no uncertain terms to get lost. You're now reaping what those folks sowed.
Instructor rating is part of a natural progression, although I agree with the premise that the partially sighted leading the blind is not a good thing. However, for ab initio training it may have some benefit as new instructors probably have more insight into what newbies may be thinking. Instructor rating is not, however, a type rating on a complex type which is more than likely outside the bounds of their capabilities.
Maun still have a couple of BN2s IINM. There are operators in Moz, Malawi, Kenya, Tanzania and many other places who do still use MEPs. The SEP ops are also good building blocks to instil awareness and command ability. This can be extended to MEP ops in most cases. Availability of piston twins is becoming problematic but skipping even the SEP types is not helping. A few small charter operators still use the odd Chieftain, C310/402 or Baron. Of course the huge numbers of prospective pilots who took on the profession as an alternative to a more formal career in the corporate world are not helping things.
I believe the young lady in question lost points for not following CC's belated advice. Also, I think she may have skipped even the SEP stuff and taken that short cut so popular among aspiring shiny shouldered wannabes.
J41? No thanks. The problem as mentioned before, is that pilots who can afford the rating are getting the job, not the best candidate. This makes the commander's job even more difficult as he becomes a de facto babysitter for someone who may not be ready for that position, while trying to do his own job in a safe and efficient manner. Been there and couldn't be bothered any more. Many colleagues feel the same way.
Instructor rating is part of a natural progression, although I agree with the premise that the partially sighted leading the blind is not a good thing. However, for ab initio training it may have some benefit as new instructors probably have more insight into what newbies may be thinking. Instructor rating is not, however, a type rating on a complex type which is more than likely outside the bounds of their capabilities.
Maun still have a couple of BN2s IINM. There are operators in Moz, Malawi, Kenya, Tanzania and many other places who do still use MEPs. The SEP ops are also good building blocks to instil awareness and command ability. This can be extended to MEP ops in most cases. Availability of piston twins is becoming problematic but skipping even the SEP types is not helping. A few small charter operators still use the odd Chieftain, C310/402 or Baron. Of course the huge numbers of prospective pilots who took on the profession as an alternative to a more formal career in the corporate world are not helping things.
I believe the young lady in question lost points for not following CC's belated advice. Also, I think she may have skipped even the SEP stuff and taken that short cut so popular among aspiring shiny shouldered wannabes.
J41? No thanks. The problem as mentioned before, is that pilots who can afford the rating are getting the job, not the best candidate. This makes the commander's job even more difficult as he becomes a de facto babysitter for someone who may not be ready for that position, while trying to do his own job in a safe and efficient manner. Been there and couldn't be bothered any more. Many colleagues feel the same way.
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SRT...I am by NO means 'reaping what others sowed'! At 21, I am currently on a twin piston and weaning my way onto a King Air in Botswana, following the natural progression! I will say that I am 'lucky' as it were...not for lack of hard work and effort as well.
What I am saying is it is not that easy out there to follow a natural progression...what you are referring to is the perfect world! And Im sorry SRT but I do not see that as a credible solution at all! More responsibility should be placed on operators hiring these guys surely?? Maybe they should change their point of view and start hiring pilots based on capabilities!!!! That seems a lot more likely to happen before pilots 'unite'. In my opinion, they are more to blame by lowering their standards for the obvious reasons (profit maximisation) Thus, if a pilot is not accepted purely on a 60 grand rating, then future pilots will realise and not waste their money. Do you not think that is a more realistic answer to this problem? Why is it solely the naughty boys and girls who buy these ratings that should get the wooden stick by yourself and others? And we must stick together right?
Everyone refers to these guys as starry eyed when there is definately a lack of judgement spurred on by pressures and misinformation. The operators do not need to hire these guys...maybe there in lies the greed and the problem
What I am saying is it is not that easy out there to follow a natural progression...what you are referring to is the perfect world! And Im sorry SRT but I do not see that as a credible solution at all! More responsibility should be placed on operators hiring these guys surely?? Maybe they should change their point of view and start hiring pilots based on capabilities!!!! That seems a lot more likely to happen before pilots 'unite'. In my opinion, they are more to blame by lowering their standards for the obvious reasons (profit maximisation) Thus, if a pilot is not accepted purely on a 60 grand rating, then future pilots will realise and not waste their money. Do you not think that is a more realistic answer to this problem? Why is it solely the naughty boys and girls who buy these ratings that should get the wooden stick by yourself and others? And we must stick together right?
Everyone refers to these guys as starry eyed when there is definately a lack of judgement spurred on by pressures and misinformation. The operators do not need to hire these guys...maybe there in lies the greed and the problem
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You seem to be on the ball, more or less, with your career path. However, that you was a general you, not a specific one.
As for operators not hiring those who try out the short cuts, some are realising the problems inherent in doing this and are shying away from doing so. Others continue to chase the bottom line with little regard to the future of the industry. Getting operators to stand together on this probably has as much chance of success as getting pilots to do the same. That's about as credible as it gets. Beyond that lies restrictive legislation once things have sunk to levels where govt feels the need to intervene. Do we really need more interference because we can't get it right ourselves? Perhaps taking personal responsibility would be a start but too many people are getting into this as an alternative to four years at university, without adequate knowledge of what they're getting in to. The problem is further compounded by those people then buying ratings in order to sidestep the hard yards. Hopefully the system will prove to be self rectifying and the benefits of having easily disposed of crews who pay for their ratings will be outweighed by the cost of insurance, broken aircraft and lives when inexperience begins to show.
The original problem came about because of people trying to jump the queue by purchasing type ratings while not yet of a sufficient level of experience and ability in order to properly use those ratings. The operators latched on to and encouraged this as it freed them from the financial burden of training and bonding crews. This freedom meant that hiring and downsizing was easy as there was no consideration of losing money if you got rid of someone with the excuse that there wasn't enough work. A bond protects both parties, something yet to be realised by those keen to help erode the few decent terms and conditions left in the industry.
As for operators not hiring those who try out the short cuts, some are realising the problems inherent in doing this and are shying away from doing so. Others continue to chase the bottom line with little regard to the future of the industry. Getting operators to stand together on this probably has as much chance of success as getting pilots to do the same. That's about as credible as it gets. Beyond that lies restrictive legislation once things have sunk to levels where govt feels the need to intervene. Do we really need more interference because we can't get it right ourselves? Perhaps taking personal responsibility would be a start but too many people are getting into this as an alternative to four years at university, without adequate knowledge of what they're getting in to. The problem is further compounded by those people then buying ratings in order to sidestep the hard yards. Hopefully the system will prove to be self rectifying and the benefits of having easily disposed of crews who pay for their ratings will be outweighed by the cost of insurance, broken aircraft and lives when inexperience begins to show.
The original problem came about because of people trying to jump the queue by purchasing type ratings while not yet of a sufficient level of experience and ability in order to properly use those ratings. The operators latched on to and encouraged this as it freed them from the financial burden of training and bonding crews. This freedom meant that hiring and downsizing was easy as there was no consideration of losing money if you got rid of someone with the excuse that there wasn't enough work. A bond protects both parties, something yet to be realised by those keen to help erode the few decent terms and conditions left in the industry.
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I currently do not have residency, but it seems that getting at least a temp work permit/visa is fairly easy. As for the conversion, is it required to get before you even start applying? When I had my expat job in India, you got the license conversion after the job offer. I'm also willing to try the nearby countries as long as I had a communting schedule so I can be at home with my girlfriend(main reason I'm in Africa). I was hoping that an instructing gig would be easier with less paperwork/loophole hassle than an airline. While I would love something like that, I would just settle for something that will keep me in the air and current.
=Jason-
=Jason-
Im going to give advice on what I know...the neighboring countries idea. Chances are your scheduling wont be anything near what you are looking for. I actually know that for a fact. Working in countries like Botswana or Namibia, you wouldnt get home very often at all! Usually once or twice a year for a month. I really dont see this as being an option for you if you are there to be with your girlfriend. You would basically walk into a job though!
Instructing may be the way to go...Im not expressly familiar with CT so maybe somebody can help with who exactly to go and see...dont expect anything special with the instructors scene in SA though!
Try going to www.avcom.co.za! Thats the SA pilots' blog and make your case in the job centre thread...there are a lot of people there who im sure could also give you some valuable information!
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Anyone have any information on any jobs in South Africa, especially Capetown or Durban? I just moved out here to be with my girlfriend who has a contract out here. 3300 TT, 1600 TPIC. I have quite a lot of dual given and would be up for an instructor position as well. Just would like to find something to keep me in the air here. Any suggestions on where to go ask? Thanks
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My apologies SRT I did not see your post for some reason. I agree and respect your views.
Do you have residency and work permits for South Africa? ICAO license? Youll need to convert your license to a SA license before looking for work. With those hours you could find something but its tough in South Africa at the moment and even tougher in Durban and Cape Town where your options are very limited.
Anyone have any information on any jobs in South Africa, especially Capetown or Durban? I just moved out here to be with my girlfriend who has a contract out here. 3300 TT, 1600 TPIC. I have quite a lot of dual given and would be up for an instructor position as well. Just would like to find something to keep me in the air here. Any suggestions on where to go ask? Thanks
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I currently do not have residency, but it seems that getting at least a temp work permit/visa is fairly easy. As for the conversion, is it required to get before you even start applying? When I had my expat job in India, you got the license conversion after the job offer. I'm also willing to try the nearby countries as long as I had a communting schedule so I can be at home with my girlfriend(main reason I'm in Africa). I was hoping that an instructing gig would be easier with less paperwork/loophole hassle than an airline. While I would love something like that, I would just settle for something that will keep me in the air and current.