Cape Flying Services
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Sorry for all you guys and gals who had a bad experience with CFS. Gary, good to hear things are going well for you buddy! I'll give you some news soon but via pm so as to keep the thread on the topic.
Yes, some students had a bad experience with CFS. You give me one school anywhere where this has never happened. I'm certain that any average school has the same proportion of unhappy students. It's not specific to CFS.
Yes, at the time ('96/97), CFS did not have spotless a/c. Yes their twin was a wreck. But tell you what, the training was excellent. Ground school was tought perfectly (I didn't pass all subject first time round with global average of 97% by chance).
No Gary, I don't need to rub Gerald's back for not having grounded me for the IUA incident. I
ed-up and got sufficiently told off. But we agreed on keeping me up as I was only a few hours off comm testing. The reason I'm defending Gerald is, 1. because I never had any problems with him and, 2. Because I sincerely believe he's a good guy.
I remain certain that most (I said most Gary, and that doesn't include you, ok?
)unhappy students are those who try to blame others (eg. the school) for their lack of skill and lack of success.
Flying is not for everyone. Some out there should test first before lauching themselves into a full on CPL.
Cheers,
Frenchy
Yes, some students had a bad experience with CFS. You give me one school anywhere where this has never happened. I'm certain that any average school has the same proportion of unhappy students. It's not specific to CFS.
Yes, at the time ('96/97), CFS did not have spotless a/c. Yes their twin was a wreck. But tell you what, the training was excellent. Ground school was tought perfectly (I didn't pass all subject first time round with global average of 97% by chance).
No Gary, I don't need to rub Gerald's back for not having grounded me for the IUA incident. I
ed-up and got sufficiently told off. But we agreed on keeping me up as I was only a few hours off comm testing. The reason I'm defending Gerald is, 1. because I never had any problems with him and, 2. Because I sincerely believe he's a good guy.I remain certain that most (I said most Gary, and that doesn't include you, ok?
)unhappy students are those who try to blame others (eg. the school) for their lack of skill and lack of success. Flying is not for everyone. Some out there should test first before lauching themselves into a full on CPL.
Cheers,
Frenchy
GunsssR4ever
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A Request Please
To the owners and moderators of PPRUNE and fellow regular PPRUNER Contributors:
Lately I have (purposefully) kept out of the firing line but I can not shut my big mouth any longer so excuse the bad English and all … here comes though ..
When Sandy Young started this thread he was immediately put on thin ice by 4HP.
I think the time has come that he has broken the ice, made his point, won the court case and won his cash and good luck to him but let us end this endless Cape Flying Services (CFS) / Gerald Todd (GT) and Naunton Pugh (NP) bashing.
By continuing to run this thread from one man's inputs and then with a few followers has gone to far I think. Please I have no doubt that the court was fair in their judgement and I have no problems in south coast having a problem with GT or PPRUNE Towers with this and that … that is not my point I am going to try and make here.
When I was in George I asked about Sandy and as far as I know they told me the following (verified by his instructor – who even he admitted was professional and dedicated). Sandy was allocated an aircraft and had a very dedicated Instructor who clearly understood that Sandy was on a tight time schedule.
It was also made clear to Sandy that it was not going to be easy, and once again on the signed terms and conditions, the very ones our guys signed, he signed that he understood that they would do their best but cannot be held responsible for delays beyond their control. (My son took 6 weeks – the professional institution CFS is grounded them when the wind was too strong … I know of another flight school that pushed the limits and a heap or two of scrap is the result).
The Private Pilots Licence calls for a minimum of 25 hours of dual and 15 solo, and if I remember correct Sandy took 32 odd hours before going solo, in 17 days. That's 7 hours more dual than the PPL requirement according to the SA ‘s CAA.
Dual time takes up more time, if that makes sense, than solo time. Once the student goes solo, the back of the course was broken and the rest is downhill. Sandy shouldn't complain about what he accomplished together with the help of a dedicated Instructor and the facilities made available to him, I very much doubt that there are many schools that could do better ?
I remember an incident when CFS did not have enough serviceable aircraft for our guys on course. What did he do ? He leased in an aircraft (or two) as he said we paid up front and that was the deal … weather permitting and of course some African troubles (too little rice in the stomach)… the guys all finished except one.
Ok … now What about the 100's of people that had good experiences ?
Do you post about the 99 good flights you had with BA ? No the bad one get’s mentioned. For 2 years and 3 months Sandy Young and the anti - GT / CFS / NP had their turn to beat down a Flying School. Surely this is going on too long ? I mean just as soon as the saga disappears Young and other complainants has another story. So for more than 2 years if people search on PPRUNE Africa they will get this negative attitude from CFS / GT / NP.
Yes, as the court case swung Young’s way – he won and he made his point. Why can’t we move on now ?
Now think about it this way if we start a rumour about congoman’s Flying School (Let’s call it Wawwy Wawweck Flying school (if he has a flying school - sorry it is pure co-incidence - just an example)
... Let’s say he flew one of his aircraft 60 hours past an MPI …. one bad mouth and then another and 5 good one's ... people like to read bad news and the bad news will stuck. I promise you overnight Wawwy’s Flying School will take a huge dent.
Now right or wrong if a thread (or THREE as in Sandy Young’s case) runs for 2 years and 3 months … imagine the damage caused ? So yes NP / CFS Europe was wrong according to the court and SY won – well done. In the 2 years imagine how much damage had he caused. All he does is laugh about it and has done NOTHING to further aviation on PPRUNE. (Explained later)
How must Mr Todd / CFS feel at this stage ? I can just imagine the damage it has caused him financially or otherwise his reputation alone. I am sure in hind - sight he wishes now that he just paid Sandy his 350 frickin pound s...
A Question to PPRUNE TOWERS (Sorry Rob mate no ill-feelings) but you make the following remark on nyati :
Have you done your homework on Sandy Young PPRUNE TOWERS ? The only responsible thing he has done on PPRUNE was to blemish the good name (for most of us they have a good name) of GT / CFS and NP.
Yes Nyathi might have defended his boss but what about the 37 pots of Sandy Young taking a crack at GT / CFS.
Sanjo69 has made 37 posts at the time of writing. Of those 36 was on the African Forum. Of the 36, 35 was about himself / NP / CFS or GT. The only other post was in any case also about them. So 36/37 PPRUNE TOWERS is according to my fading skills close to 100 % vs nyati’s one quarter – so why pick on him ?
Sorry Rob mate (we had some good posts in the past and some good run abouts according to my fading skills but you are very in favour of Sandy Young (sanjo69) on this one.
I just quickly scanned another “New poster” – 3 posts to be exact. Congoman : Now congoman has made three posts this month and I have it under great confidentiality /trust and inside info from his “trusted insiders” that congoman is non other than Mr W. W. who happens to be the owner of FTC from George who is the biggest competition of GT / CFS. He has posted 3 out of 3 – all degenerating GT / CFS. I wonder why … and what will his motives be
Why not question him on his 100% anti-Todd / CFS / NP sentiment ?
When 4HP gave Sanjo69 leeway to make his case he answered :
That is not the way the two years of exposure ran ??? Sanjo69 never kept his side of the treaty …
Ok now I have it also on good authority that a certain aircraft from a certain flying school in George over flew his aircraft by 60 hrs since an MPI.
Catching the drift ??? Shall I start that rumour ? Blemish someone’s name until it get binned ?
This thread and the other three had done their damage and should be considered for deletion as I can start a few rumours that will blemish a few companies ... oh ... of course I will use another username (called trolling).
You might think two threads … what happened to Irish-Pilot27 ? Yeah we know it was Sandy Young. 4 posts in 2 days and he NEVER , ever appeared again on PPRUNE – all 4 posts degrading / GT / CFS. So three threads running over two years … same story same irk … (Irish Pilot features in this thread) - the Other CFS thread is now closed I see.
PPRUNE TOWERS you did not mention that one either. Sorry I am not taking a dig at you but you should have been with these threads for two plus years as we where and you surely would have seen the inside of this. Hope you understand my point and I say again – it is NOT a dig at you as a person ok ? There are a few more trolls that did their damage and left – never to post again (except south coast of course but he obviously has his reasons why he is / was unhappy)
Last but not least – a real personal appeal from the heart:
My Guns have been blazing today but I also would like to pull them back and blow the smoke away and appeal to everyone here today to respect our fellow aviators. I want to send a personal plea to you as a fellow aviator re Mr Gerald Todd. Yes, some of you might not like him for whatever reason. I have met Gerald twice, send 7 students to him (and a few more is coming) and I have just the greatest respect for him, his business, his personnel and his lovely family.
GT / CFS / NP has taken the punch now - Sandy you won – well done – let it go now mate. (Please) RIP.
I thank you all for reading this.
My best wishes,
Gunship.
Lately I have (purposefully) kept out of the firing line but I can not shut my big mouth any longer so excuse the bad English and all … here comes though ..
When Sandy Young started this thread he was immediately put on thin ice by 4HP.
You're playing it very close to the line Sandy - especially for a 2nd post
By continuing to run this thread from one man's inputs and then with a few followers has gone to far I think. Please I have no doubt that the court was fair in their judgement and I have no problems in south coast having a problem with GT or PPRUNE Towers with this and that … that is not my point I am going to try and make here.
When I was in George I asked about Sandy and as far as I know they told me the following (verified by his instructor – who even he admitted was professional and dedicated). Sandy was allocated an aircraft and had a very dedicated Instructor who clearly understood that Sandy was on a tight time schedule.
It was also made clear to Sandy that it was not going to be easy, and once again on the signed terms and conditions, the very ones our guys signed, he signed that he understood that they would do their best but cannot be held responsible for delays beyond their control. (My son took 6 weeks – the professional institution CFS is grounded them when the wind was too strong … I know of another flight school that pushed the limits and a heap or two of scrap is the result).
The Private Pilots Licence calls for a minimum of 25 hours of dual and 15 solo, and if I remember correct Sandy took 32 odd hours before going solo, in 17 days. That's 7 hours more dual than the PPL requirement according to the SA ‘s CAA.
Dual time takes up more time, if that makes sense, than solo time. Once the student goes solo, the back of the course was broken and the rest is downhill. Sandy shouldn't complain about what he accomplished together with the help of a dedicated Instructor and the facilities made available to him, I very much doubt that there are many schools that could do better ?
I remember an incident when CFS did not have enough serviceable aircraft for our guys on course. What did he do ? He leased in an aircraft (or two) as he said we paid up front and that was the deal … weather permitting and of course some African troubles (too little rice in the stomach)… the guys all finished except one.
Ok … now What about the 100's of people that had good experiences ?
Do you post about the 99 good flights you had with BA ? No the bad one get’s mentioned. For 2 years and 3 months Sandy Young and the anti - GT / CFS / NP had their turn to beat down a Flying School. Surely this is going on too long ? I mean just as soon as the saga disappears Young and other complainants has another story. So for more than 2 years if people search on PPRUNE Africa they will get this negative attitude from CFS / GT / NP.
Yes, as the court case swung Young’s way – he won and he made his point. Why can’t we move on now ?
Now think about it this way if we start a rumour about congoman’s Flying School (Let’s call it Wawwy Wawweck Flying school (if he has a flying school - sorry it is pure co-incidence - just an example)
... Let’s say he flew one of his aircraft 60 hours past an MPI …. one bad mouth and then another and 5 good one's ... people like to read bad news and the bad news will stuck. I promise you overnight Wawwy’s Flying School will take a huge dent. Now right or wrong if a thread (or THREE as in Sandy Young’s case) runs for 2 years and 3 months … imagine the damage caused ? So yes NP / CFS Europe was wrong according to the court and SY won – well done. In the 2 years imagine how much damage had he caused. All he does is laugh about it and has done NOTHING to further aviation on PPRUNE. (Explained later)
How must Mr Todd / CFS feel at this stage ? I can just imagine the damage it has caused him financially or otherwise his reputation alone. I am sure in hind - sight he wishes now that he just paid Sandy his 350 frickin pound s...
A Question to PPRUNE TOWERS (Sorry Rob mate no ill-feelings) but you make the following remark on nyati :
An interesting and valid point nyathi,
Of your 15 posts on this site 4 of them regard CFS - over a quarter according to my fading skills.
A strong history of posting on a single subject or business raises our readers' eyebrows just as much whether a booster or detractor.
As an 'extreme' example consider the 'characters' on the long running huey threads who make no other contribution on any subject anywhere else on the site. It goes both ways doesn't it?
Regards
Rob
Of your 15 posts on this site 4 of them regard CFS - over a quarter according to my fading skills.
A strong history of posting on a single subject or business raises our readers' eyebrows just as much whether a booster or detractor.
As an 'extreme' example consider the 'characters' on the long running huey threads who make no other contribution on any subject anywhere else on the site. It goes both ways doesn't it?
Regards
Rob
Yes Nyathi might have defended his boss but what about the 37 pots of Sandy Young taking a crack at GT / CFS.
Sanjo69 has made 37 posts at the time of writing. Of those 36 was on the African Forum. Of the 36, 35 was about himself / NP / CFS or GT. The only other post was in any case also about them. So 36/37 PPRUNE TOWERS is according to my fading skills close to 100 % vs nyati’s one quarter – so why pick on him ?
Sorry Rob mate (we had some good posts in the past and some good run abouts according to my fading skills but you are very in favour of Sandy Young (sanjo69) on this one.
I just quickly scanned another “New poster” – 3 posts to be exact. Congoman : Now congoman has made three posts this month and I have it under great confidentiality /trust and inside info from his “trusted insiders” that congoman is non other than Mr W. W. who happens to be the owner of FTC from George who is the biggest competition of GT / CFS. He has posted 3 out of 3 – all degenerating GT / CFS. I wonder why … and what will his motives be
Why not question him on his 100% anti-Todd / CFS / NP sentiment ?
When 4HP gave Sanjo69 leeway to make his case he answered :
This complaint is not directed at Cape Flying Services George, but, Mr Naunton Pugh, trading as Cape Flying Services (Europe).
Ok now I have it also on good authority that a certain aircraft from a certain flying school in George over flew his aircraft by 60 hrs since an MPI.
Catching the drift ??? Shall I start that rumour ? Blemish someone’s name until it get binned ?
This thread and the other three had done their damage and should be considered for deletion as I can start a few rumours that will blemish a few companies ... oh ... of course I will use another username (called trolling).
You might think two threads … what happened to Irish-Pilot27 ? Yeah we know it was Sandy Young. 4 posts in 2 days and he NEVER , ever appeared again on PPRUNE – all 4 posts degrading / GT / CFS. So three threads running over two years … same story same irk … (Irish Pilot features in this thread) - the Other CFS thread is now closed I see.
PPRUNE TOWERS you did not mention that one either. Sorry I am not taking a dig at you but you should have been with these threads for two plus years as we where and you surely would have seen the inside of this. Hope you understand my point and I say again – it is NOT a dig at you as a person ok ? There are a few more trolls that did their damage and left – never to post again (except south coast of course but he obviously has his reasons why he is / was unhappy)
Last but not least – a real personal appeal from the heart:
My Guns have been blazing today but I also would like to pull them back and blow the smoke away and appeal to everyone here today to respect our fellow aviators. I want to send a personal plea to you as a fellow aviator re Mr Gerald Todd. Yes, some of you might not like him for whatever reason. I have met Gerald twice, send 7 students to him (and a few more is coming) and I have just the greatest respect for him, his business, his personnel and his lovely family.
GT / CFS / NP has taken the punch now - Sandy you won – well done – let it go now mate. (Please) RIP.
I thank you all for reading this.
My best wishes,
Gunship.
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Guns,
What this is about is tyros getting shafted into paying up front.
It's about folks being told they can do a PPL in three weeks and book flights accordingly.
It's about an extremely respectable member controlled flying club writing back to me in May 2004 clearly stating it's not their job to list the problems with a South African PPL. Caveat emptor.
It's revealed in Irv's post regarding the great fun of having to travel from France to the Southern UK just for a check.
Like to take a guess how many SA CAA approved medicos there are in UK and Europe and the traveling required?
How about learning on a C152 and discovering you need a type rating to fly a C150 and there's no examiner in your country or any country nearby?
And ultimately it's about the purpose of PPRuNe. The first worldwide grass roots publicity in the mid nineties for offsets in African airspace supporting the campaign by the SA pilots association.
It's every post here revealing the charlatans and rogues conning young CPL's. The bad operators, the dreamers, the thieves and the frauds. The hokey CPL schools and the outfits that never pay.
No objections to all that, the bread and butter of life on this forum is there? Caveat emptor writ large and detailed to help folks in African Aviation.
So where's the cut off point then Gun's? The foreigners coming to do a PPL? By definition they don't know aviation the way you guys do. BA, Virgin and SAA all want money up front for a ticket don't they? If that's all they know why would paying substantial amounts up front ring any alarm bells? They don't know PPRuNE exists. They can only go on the glossy ads and the websites. And the agents. Yes, The agents. Believe me mate, I've made the mystery shopper calls over a year ago.
Middle aged, kids flown the coop, some money to do what I've always wanted. Well no not terribly fit and never was any good at sport. Of course you can do a PPL in 3 weeks sir. Significant undertaking though, we'd require a substantial deposit.
And the replies to my e-mails to schools pointing out the nonsense and impossible promises in advertising and on those websites. Stating the drawbacks of a SA PPL - Caveat emptor, it's entirely up to the student to determine what the licence entitles them to do back home.
So come on Guns, is it OK in your book to sell a uselessly limited licence to naive novices? One medical examiner for England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales? People travelling across Europe just to switch from a PA 160 to a 180?
Which of you think it's just fine to take large amounts of money up front? To insist on a vast balance being maintained at all times in the schools' own accounts?
Misleading advertising, ommissions of fact and detail, financial arrangements you'd never let your kids or friends undertake. You wouldn't would you? Any of you?
The truth is the truth.
Or do the ends justify the means and thus the hostility? Hours and income for South Africans.
What this is about is tyros getting shafted into paying up front.
It's about folks being told they can do a PPL in three weeks and book flights accordingly.
It's about an extremely respectable member controlled flying club writing back to me in May 2004 clearly stating it's not their job to list the problems with a South African PPL. Caveat emptor.
It's revealed in Irv's post regarding the great fun of having to travel from France to the Southern UK just for a check.
Like to take a guess how many SA CAA approved medicos there are in UK and Europe and the traveling required?
How about learning on a C152 and discovering you need a type rating to fly a C150 and there's no examiner in your country or any country nearby?
And ultimately it's about the purpose of PPRuNe. The first worldwide grass roots publicity in the mid nineties for offsets in African airspace supporting the campaign by the SA pilots association.
It's every post here revealing the charlatans and rogues conning young CPL's. The bad operators, the dreamers, the thieves and the frauds. The hokey CPL schools and the outfits that never pay.
No objections to all that, the bread and butter of life on this forum is there? Caveat emptor writ large and detailed to help folks in African Aviation.
So where's the cut off point then Gun's? The foreigners coming to do a PPL? By definition they don't know aviation the way you guys do. BA, Virgin and SAA all want money up front for a ticket don't they? If that's all they know why would paying substantial amounts up front ring any alarm bells? They don't know PPRuNE exists. They can only go on the glossy ads and the websites. And the agents. Yes, The agents. Believe me mate, I've made the mystery shopper calls over a year ago.
Middle aged, kids flown the coop, some money to do what I've always wanted. Well no not terribly fit and never was any good at sport. Of course you can do a PPL in 3 weeks sir. Significant undertaking though, we'd require a substantial deposit.
And the replies to my e-mails to schools pointing out the nonsense and impossible promises in advertising and on those websites. Stating the drawbacks of a SA PPL - Caveat emptor, it's entirely up to the student to determine what the licence entitles them to do back home.
So come on Guns, is it OK in your book to sell a uselessly limited licence to naive novices? One medical examiner for England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales? People travelling across Europe just to switch from a PA 160 to a 180?
Which of you think it's just fine to take large amounts of money up front? To insist on a vast balance being maintained at all times in the schools' own accounts?
Misleading advertising, ommissions of fact and detail, financial arrangements you'd never let your kids or friends undertake. You wouldn't would you? Any of you?
The truth is the truth.
Or do the ends justify the means and thus the hostility? Hours and income for South Africans.
PPRuNe Towers
I think you are wrong on this one. That is what the thread "was" about. It has now gone beyond that. So you are saying that CFS is responsible, no one else? They are the only school in the world to shaft students? Everyone at this school should be made jobless because of this? So in your books eveytime a crime is committed we jail the same guy we caught before, even if he has done his time?
Sandy's posts in my opinion, are now nothing more than carrying out a vendetta against CFS, and I'm amazed that Pprune would support this.
Something many companies face is extortion, to what lengths would Pprune support such actions? Just a question?
I think you are wrong on this one. That is what the thread "was" about. It has now gone beyond that. So you are saying that CFS is responsible, no one else? They are the only school in the world to shaft students? Everyone at this school should be made jobless because of this? So in your books eveytime a crime is committed we jail the same guy we caught before, even if he has done his time?
Sandy's posts in my opinion, are now nothing more than carrying out a vendetta against CFS, and I'm amazed that Pprune would support this.
Something many companies face is extortion, to what lengths would Pprune support such actions? Just a question?
GunsssR4ever
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Good morning Rob et all,
Rob, if you responded on THIS thread I would have had NO problem in what you are saying.
Right now you are responding on a thread that a fake troller started which has already been exposed as either sanjo69 / a troll or a friend of him - I mean it is clear to me with 8 years of moderator experience.
4 Posts by Irish-Pilot27, one asking a question to start the thread - in other words getting a thread going ... mate he is a fake and this thread has grown into one hughe fake and you support it ?
Rasterfarian claiming that the Sierra Leoneans has burnt down the place ... he made 3 posts in 2 days and never ever appeared again ... all condemning GT / CFS / NP. Another fake and you support that ?
Flapsnslats admitted he was new on PPRUNE. So new he left a blemishing remark , never to return to PPRUNE Africa side of things .... you supporting this ?
From congoman ..
Wise words from Mr W.W. - just to cover up the fact that he is stiff competition for GT / CFS. (His next door school neigbour according to stats / inside info (and I am sorry if I am wong wally.
I am not discrediting new posters / new users on PPRUNE but I mean we all know you just need an e-mail address to get a new username and post anything you like ... so Phoebe Buffet sorry mate I for one will not justify your post.
The only person that I will truely believe has had a bad experience with GT / CFS / NP is south coast.
Call me judgemental .. call me what you like but PPRUNE TOWERS to show your support for a thread like this is a hard one to swallow for me as I have greater respect for you than you supporting this ...
I am sure you hold a bigger grudge against SA training than what you have mentioned (and obviously rightfully so).
So I say again if your post was posted under the "PPL TRAINING IN SOUTH AFRICA (MERGED)" THIS thread in the PRIVATE FLYING Sub-Forum I could not see a problem with it ... but to throw your / PPRUNE 's weight behind imposters / trolls on a genralised subject that became a GT/ CFS bashing is not the way to do it. (According to me).
I have to rest my case now as my English dictionary is seriously running out
Cheers and thanks for a healthy debate.
Gunship
PS: Let it be ... let it go ... (please).
Rob, if you responded on THIS thread I would have had NO problem in what you are saying.
Right now you are responding on a thread that a fake troller started which has already been exposed as either sanjo69 / a troll or a friend of him - I mean it is clear to me with 8 years of moderator experience.
4 Posts by Irish-Pilot27, one asking a question to start the thread - in other words getting a thread going ... mate he is a fake and this thread has grown into one hughe fake and you support it ?
Rasterfarian claiming that the Sierra Leoneans has burnt down the place ... he made 3 posts in 2 days and never ever appeared again ... all condemning GT / CFS / NP. Another fake and you support that ?
Flapsnslats admitted he was new on PPRUNE. So new he left a blemishing remark , never to return to PPRUNE Africa side of things .... you supporting this ?
From congoman ..
The South African general aviation industry deserves better than to be represented by these charlotans.
I am not discrediting new posters / new users on PPRUNE but I mean we all know you just need an e-mail address to get a new username and post anything you like ... so Phoebe Buffet sorry mate I for one will not justify your post.
The only person that I will truely believe has had a bad experience with GT / CFS / NP is south coast.
Call me judgemental .. call me what you like but PPRUNE TOWERS to show your support for a thread like this is a hard one to swallow for me as I have greater respect for you than you supporting this ...
I am sure you hold a bigger grudge against SA training than what you have mentioned (and obviously rightfully so).
So I say again if your post was posted under the "PPL TRAINING IN SOUTH AFRICA (MERGED)" THIS thread in the PRIVATE FLYING Sub-Forum I could not see a problem with it ... but to throw your / PPRUNE 's weight behind imposters / trolls on a genralised subject that became a GT/ CFS bashing is not the way to do it. (According to me).
I have to rest my case now as my English dictionary is seriously running out
Cheers and thanks for a healthy debate.
Gunship
PS: Let it be ... let it go ... (please).
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Gunship: I'm not sure I understand what you are saying.....
Are you implying my experiences at CFS and with Gerald Todd were not real?
Are you suggesting I'm someone else?
I'm happy for you that you had a great time in George and you achieved what you set out to achieve and what you paid to achieve - I didn't but as I said in my post 'my bad luck or bad judgement'. I take full responsibility for mistakenly trusting CFS and GT and signing a contract up front but I had no option due to sudent visa requirements.
The only thing that sprung to my mind when I discovered this thread a week ago was:
'What goes around comes around'
Propbrake you know who I am and I thank you for your very competent instruction.......and I'm glad you found respect in your new workplace.
Are you implying my experiences at CFS and with Gerald Todd were not real?
Are you suggesting I'm someone else?
I'm happy for you that you had a great time in George and you achieved what you set out to achieve and what you paid to achieve - I didn't but as I said in my post 'my bad luck or bad judgement'. I take full responsibility for mistakenly trusting CFS and GT and signing a contract up front but I had no option due to sudent visa requirements.
The only thing that sprung to my mind when I discovered this thread a week ago was:
'What goes around comes around'
Propbrake you know who I am and I thank you for your very competent instruction.......and I'm glad you found respect in your new workplace.
GunsssR4ever
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Lo mate,
I tried to put it as discrete as possible :
All that I mean - this is a serious thread (and the others) with serious accusations and stuff.
I for one draw a line what I read and from who it is (the problem with new posters is trust and sadly that has not been the case here for a while).
I am sure you are who you are and I am sorry if I offended you in any manner.
All the best and I wish you just the best for your future.
Gunss
I tried to put it as discrete as possible :
I am not discrediting new posters / new users on PPRUNE but I mean we all know you just need an e-mail address to get a new username and post anything you like ... so Phoebe Buffet sorry mate I for one will not justify your post.
I for one draw a line what I read and from who it is (the problem with new posters is trust and sadly that has not been the case here for a while).
I am sure you are who you are and I am sorry if I offended you in any manner.
All the best and I wish you just the best for your future.
Gunss
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Oddly enough Gunzz, I agree with you. I too think this whole thing should be laid to rest for the greater good of the aviation community. But before it is, let's just summarise why this all happened. Firstly, this whole debacle was of your friends own making. You can't treat people the way he has for years on end, bringing Sa GA training into disrepute - and not expect a backlash sooner or later. What you sow in life, you will surely reap. "The big wheel turns," as one contributor put it. This is an irrefutable truth. He only has himself to blame for things getting to this stage. While we all have sympathy for his family circumstances - these things should make us better men, more gentle and compassionate - not harder, more callous and arrogant. If he thinks he has been judged unfairly, then ask him to look at the fairness and the methods he has employed in dealing with his staff/students/compeditors. I'm not making idle statements here - ample documented proof exists, as do the witnesses. Ironically, I don't think he has suffered financially to any great degree. He still flaunts his wealth quite openly, even though his creditors are left waiting for their money.
As we speak, three pending court cases are in the pipeline, all of which are going to cost him dearly to defend.
How about having a chat to your friend and asking him for a commitment to settle these guys fairly, and then clean up his act, so as not to bring the Sa aviation training industry into further disrepute. Maybe then we can put this whole sordid experience behind us and get on with our lives. How about it?
As we speak, three pending court cases are in the pipeline, all of which are going to cost him dearly to defend.
How about having a chat to your friend and asking him for a commitment to settle these guys fairly, and then clean up his act, so as not to bring the Sa aviation training industry into further disrepute. Maybe then we can put this whole sordid experience behind us and get on with our lives. How about it?
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Tx for the reply congoman.
I must just add at this stage that we are actually not friends. I purely know GT through a meal, an inspection of all his facilities and that was basically that (with LOTS of e-mails later on re our students).
I will now make work of it and have a chat to him and let's see what comes from it.
Just spoken to him and his first response was he is banned / can not log in on CFI-CFS ... no wonder the man is a tad quite
Cheers and tx again for the response.
Gunsss
I must just add at this stage that we are actually not friends. I purely know GT through a meal, an inspection of all his facilities and that was basically that (with LOTS of e-mails later on re our students).
I will now make work of it and have a chat to him and let's see what comes from it.
Just spoken to him and his first response was he is banned / can not log in on CFI-CFS ... no wonder the man is a tad quite
Cheers and tx again for the response.
Gunsss
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Good morning all,
First of all let me make it clear that I unwittingly put my nose into this as I saw it as a one-sided story going the wrong way for the wrong reasons.
What started as a Sandy vs NP and CFS (Europe) became a GT / CFS SA bashing.
Then on top of it now CFS's biggest competition also jumped on the band wagon and anonymously tried to bash from the side line. This is NOT The spirit that I know from PPRUNE (after 7 odd years here).
I had a very long conversation with Mr Todd.
What is very clear is that he will not post any further on this issue as he is very, very frustrated, cross, and not a happy man. Not about NP but the fact that his competition went so far as they did.
He has evidence that congoman is Mr W.W. (owner or co -owner of his next biggest competition next door in George) and as such see him as posting anonymously on an open forum, degrading his biggest competition and in person Gerald Todd.
It is very clear to me that they do not see eye-to eye - no two ways about it that this "competition" has come a very long way. I could write volumes full what he told me (and I am sure WW also has another thing or two to say).
To post what Mr Todd told me re WW and his competition willl also not be fair but the fact that congoman / WW says that Mr Todd can expect 3 court cases leaves quite a bit of worry as Mr Todd reckons he can expect a few more due to things he has been doing against him and and and ...
Gents this has become nasty - it is clearly now a ego trip and PPRUNE is used as a bashing forum with Cape Flying Services name heading this and the other thread.
I feel very strongly now that this is not the place to sort out personnal grudges and I for one will refrain from reading / posting anything more on this subject.
To both of you - good luck with your flying schools. SA (and the beautiful George area) needs good flying schools with the correct training being given to the highest standards and the most cost - effective - all in an professional capacity.
We chose CFS. You choose what you want.
God Bless.
Gunship
First of all let me make it clear that I unwittingly put my nose into this as I saw it as a one-sided story going the wrong way for the wrong reasons.
What started as a Sandy vs NP and CFS (Europe) became a GT / CFS SA bashing.
Then on top of it now CFS's biggest competition also jumped on the band wagon and anonymously tried to bash from the side line. This is NOT The spirit that I know from PPRUNE (after 7 odd years here).
I had a very long conversation with Mr Todd.
What is very clear is that he will not post any further on this issue as he is very, very frustrated, cross, and not a happy man. Not about NP but the fact that his competition went so far as they did.
He has evidence that congoman is Mr W.W. (owner or co -owner of his next biggest competition next door in George) and as such see him as posting anonymously on an open forum, degrading his biggest competition and in person Gerald Todd.
It is very clear to me that they do not see eye-to eye - no two ways about it that this "competition" has come a very long way. I could write volumes full what he told me (and I am sure WW also has another thing or two to say).
To post what Mr Todd told me re WW and his competition willl also not be fair but the fact that congoman / WW says that Mr Todd can expect 3 court cases leaves quite a bit of worry as Mr Todd reckons he can expect a few more due to things he has been doing against him and and and ...
Gents this has become nasty - it is clearly now a ego trip and PPRUNE is used as a bashing forum with Cape Flying Services name heading this and the other thread.
I feel very strongly now that this is not the place to sort out personnal grudges and I for one will refrain from reading / posting anything more on this subject.
To both of you - good luck with your flying schools. SA (and the beautiful George area) needs good flying schools with the correct training being given to the highest standards and the most cost - effective - all in an professional capacity.
We chose CFS. You choose what you want.
God Bless.
Gunship
Last edited by Gunship; 5th Aug 2005 at 08:58.
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Gentlemen-
The bottom line is....do not pay for a service upfront.There are countless examples of unhappy students in various situations around the country,-but if you have paid for the full service- your chances of pulling out with the balance of your money is minimal.
It still amazes me to read how many students/cadets put the money upfront,before receiving the goods.-not good business practice.
Be wide awake.
The bottom line is....do not pay for a service upfront.There are countless examples of unhappy students in various situations around the country,-but if you have paid for the full service- your chances of pulling out with the balance of your money is minimal.
It still amazes me to read how many students/cadets put the money upfront,before receiving the goods.-not good business practice.
Be wide awake.
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Sorry to hear that it's a big fat NO from Mr G.T. But thanks for trying Gunzz. On the upside, I guess now he can appreciate how very angry, very unhappy, very cross and very frustrated he made a LOT of us feel about him.
Cheers and thanks again.
CM
p.s.
Just spoken to the "competition" and a few others.
All agree it's about time this was put behind us. Wouldn't like to see CFS self-destruct. Says competition good for everyone if the game is played properly. Says he prefers to spend more time with his family than hasselling about this nonsence. Says you would understand G.T. Says he is prepared to let bye-gones be by-gones.
Cheers and thanks again.
CM
p.s.
Just spoken to the "competition" and a few others.
All agree it's about time this was put behind us. Wouldn't like to see CFS self-destruct. Says competition good for everyone if the game is played properly. Says he prefers to spend more time with his family than hasselling about this nonsence. Says you would understand G.T. Says he is prepared to let bye-gones be by-gones.
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ZS-NDV: It would seem that some still want to see justice done in outstanding legal actions against Gerald Todd and CFS and until the courts have put those allegations 'to bed' then it's of personal interest.
Please feel free to post on other threads in the meantime.
See sister thread: 'Naunton Pugh etc etc'.
Please feel free to post on other threads in the meantime.
See sister thread: 'Naunton Pugh etc etc'.
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So Mr T is very very cross is he? Well BOO HOO!
Finally somebody's doing something about this "gentleman."
He's screwed so many of us over it's frightening. Well you've been caught out mate! What I can't understand is why the CAA has been so quiet.
Finally somebody's doing something about this "gentleman."
He's screwed so many of us over it's frightening. Well you've been caught out mate! What I can't understand is why the CAA has been so quiet.
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I have followed all these postings with interest ( and occasional boredom ) since the original CFS post by Sanjo sometime ago. I have more than a passing interest - I was at an SA school which was also in the way of relieving students of their cash by dubious means. It is no secret, a search will turn it up, the school was FTC.
When FTC was first taken to task here on prune people were shouted down, and told to be quiet. And people continued to go there, and to be ripped off. Yet here people still said it was rubbish and they were a reputable school. Yeah they once were but things change very quickly in aviation. This continued until there was an overwhelming opinion against them. And true to form they folded, taking a lot of money with them. Indeed they actively sent out mails promising exceptionally cheap flying in return for advance payment, knowing full well they were on the way out.
My point? Anytime someone from the UK dares to talk badly of an SA school you guys are all over them in a flash. As though anyone could dare suggest there are bent flying school bosses over there. People are being ripped off and misled guys. I have mixed views on Sanjo, but he did win in court. What is disturbing also is Mr Pugh using his position as editor of a flight training magazine to give him some credibility when misselling products.
if you don't want to read bad things about CFS then don't click on the post. If sanjo annoys you put him on your ignore list. But prune exists, as Towers said, to expose things such as this, and to help us all make an informed choice.
When FTC was first taken to task here on prune people were shouted down, and told to be quiet. And people continued to go there, and to be ripped off. Yet here people still said it was rubbish and they were a reputable school. Yeah they once were but things change very quickly in aviation. This continued until there was an overwhelming opinion against them. And true to form they folded, taking a lot of money with them. Indeed they actively sent out mails promising exceptionally cheap flying in return for advance payment, knowing full well they were on the way out.
My point? Anytime someone from the UK dares to talk badly of an SA school you guys are all over them in a flash. As though anyone could dare suggest there are bent flying school bosses over there. People are being ripped off and misled guys. I have mixed views on Sanjo, but he did win in court. What is disturbing also is Mr Pugh using his position as editor of a flight training magazine to give him some credibility when misselling products.
if you don't want to read bad things about CFS then don't click on the post. If sanjo annoys you put him on your ignore list. But prune exists, as Towers said, to expose things such as this, and to help us all make an informed choice.
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I'm sure there will always be people that are unhappy about what they have been given in exchange for the money they diseh out. And I'm not going to judge this one or that one based on the problem they faced.
However, what I find really unfare in this (and the other) thread is that Pprune allows each and every Tom, Dick and Harry who may (or may not) have been abused by X, Y or Z, to shout out all their pseudo greviences in all freedom but there is a complete blockout of every accused person.
Why is CFS-CFI (i.e. G. Todd) not allowed to say anything?? How democratic is that??
Ok, so I decide today to mount up a story on 43rd (for eg.) saying all sorts of things (which I may just think up when I'm on the loo with no Flight International at hand).
And what's going to happen? Someone from 43rd will try and defend themselves and they also will be blocked out of the forum???
This sort of attitude from the moderators is pretty limit on my fareness scale... Pprune Towers? A comment on that?
Regards,
ZS-NDV
However, what I find really unfare in this (and the other) thread is that Pprune allows each and every Tom, Dick and Harry who may (or may not) have been abused by X, Y or Z, to shout out all their pseudo greviences in all freedom but there is a complete blockout of every accused person.
Why is CFS-CFI (i.e. G. Todd) not allowed to say anything?? How democratic is that??
Ok, so I decide today to mount up a story on 43rd (for eg.) saying all sorts of things (which I may just think up when I'm on the loo with no Flight International at hand).
And what's going to happen? Someone from 43rd will try and defend themselves and they also will be blocked out of the forum???
This sort of attitude from the moderators is pretty limit on my fareness scale... Pprune Towers? A comment on that?
Regards,
ZS-NDV
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77 usernames from 23 schools blocked as of today.
Last week 'vinil' in the States (UKFT) and 'l'ardennais' (Hub'Air) from Belgium joined the select band. You can use the search engine to view their posts although the most egregious are now out of view.
First one to be blocked was in November 1998 and was from the UK. The last one from SA was Stephen Stark on the 24th March 2005 for launching a 350 word epic snappily titled, "CFS goes from strength to strength." He signed off as:
Now you may well be suprised but my acute spider senses tingled on reading that.
My hard won experience told me that, although far too subtle for the average reader, this might actually be a bit of shameless marketing - along with the other tosh pouring out from that office in recent years.
Anything else I can help you with ZS-NDV?
Regards to all,
Rob
Last week 'vinil' in the States (UKFT) and 'l'ardennais' (Hub'Air) from Belgium joined the select band. You can use the search engine to view their posts although the most egregious are now out of view.
First one to be blocked was in November 1998 and was from the UK. The last one from SA was Stephen Stark on the 24th March 2005 for launching a 350 word epic snappily titled, "CFS goes from strength to strength." He signed off as:
Stephen Stark
Former and Future Air Service Safety Officer & Operations Manager
Cape Flying Services George
Former and Future Air Service Safety Officer & Operations Manager
Cape Flying Services George
My hard won experience told me that, although far too subtle for the average reader, this might actually be a bit of shameless marketing - along with the other tosh pouring out from that office in recent years.
Anything else I can help you with ZS-NDV?
Regards to all,
Rob
GunsssR4ever
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A Question
Tx for the info Rob,
So do I have it right that no flying schools are allowed to post on PPRUNE then ?
If a person (like Stepen Stark and CFI-CFS) unashamedly said who he / they where - they get blocked but a fake like Irish Pilot 27 (who started this thread) - to never appear again are allowed to post inflamatory remarks just to dissapear again ??
Sorry mate something does not telly here for me ?
A fake / troll started the thread and it has ran over years ... sorry it boggles my mind mate.
Cheers and tx for your time (again)
Gunsss
So do I have it right that no flying schools are allowed to post on PPRUNE then ?
If a person (like Stepen Stark and CFI-CFS) unashamedly said who he / they where - they get blocked but a fake like Irish Pilot 27 (who started this thread) - to never appear again are allowed to post inflamatory remarks just to dissapear again ??
Sorry mate something does not telly here for me ?
A fake / troll started the thread and it has ran over years ... sorry it boggles my mind mate.
Cheers and tx for your time (again)
Gunsss