AA5342 Down DCA
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From: Within AM radio broadcast range of downtown Chicago
"The helicopter also a Black Hawk took a scenic route around the Pentagon versus proceeding directly from the west to the heliport, [the] FAA assistant administrator for government and industry affairs [...] wrote in an email obtained by POLITICO." (emphasis added)
The FAA official's choice of words was either meant as a sarcastic comment criticizing the flight path operated by the helicopter - or if taken literally did he intend to communicate that the helicopter crew knowingly flew a route with better visuals of the city as if sightseeing? The fact that even after the accident there still are issues like this is bad enough; if he intended to be understood literally....
And is there a factual, basis for believing this particular helicopter flight was a training mission as opposed to the VIP transport about which Sec. Duffy's remarks were pretty strident? If information about it having been a training mission was included in prior posts, I missed it.
The FAA official's choice of words was either meant as a sarcastic comment criticizing the flight path operated by the helicopter - or if taken literally did he intend to communicate that the helicopter crew knowingly flew a route with better visuals of the city as if sightseeing? The fact that even after the accident there still are issues like this is bad enough; if he intended to be understood literally....
And is there a factual, basis for believing this particular helicopter flight was a training mission as opposed to the VIP transport about which Sec. Duffy's remarks were pretty strident? If information about it having been a training mission was included in prior posts, I missed it.
Joined: Jan 2004
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From: Far West Wessex
That was what the Army told the WaPo on Saturday:
However, after the Kentucky Derby (decadent and depraved) result, SecArmy tweeted:
Sovereignty > Journalism.
On the track. And in 2025 America.
If there was a VIP onboard, it would be a problem for the Administration.
However, after the Kentucky Derby (decadent and depraved) result, SecArmy tweeted:
Sovereignty > Journalism.
On the track. And in 2025 America.
If there was a VIP onboard, it would be a problem for the Administration.
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 905
Likes: 321
From: Virginia, USA
Excerpts from various news sources:
The Army on Monday said it has suspended helicopter flights into the Pentagon, following an incident last week involving a military helicopter flying near Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport that prompted air traffic controllers to divert two commercial flights that had been attempting to land.
Following the incident, the Army said it had conducted the Thursday helicopter flight in accordance with published FAA flight routes. Capt. Victoria Goldfedib, U.S. Army spokesperson, said that Pentagon controllers directed the helicopter to perform a go-around, flying over the helipad which then prompted Reagan National controllers to take action to ensure the appropriate deconfliction of airspace.
A U.S. official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said that according to initial information, the military helicopter was doing an emergency evacuation rehearsal.
An FAA summary of Thursdays incident obtained by The Washington Post says the helicopter was not within newly restricted airspace and was following new rules requiring it to broadcast its location using a satellite-based system.
The Army said in a statement late Friday that it was operating in accordance with FAA flight routes. The Army said it remains committed to aviation safety and conducting flight operations within all approved guidelines and procedures.
The scenic characterization was inappropriate, the Army official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the situation. No senior leader was on the helicopter, which carried two aviators and a crew chief, the official said.
The Army said in a statement late Friday that it was operating in accordance with FAA flight routes. The Army said it remains committed to aviation safety and conducting flight operations within all approved guidelines and procedures.
The scenic characterization was inappropriate, the Army official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the situation. No senior leader was on the helicopter, which carried two aviators and a crew chief, the official said.
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,682
Likes: 63
From: Far West Wessex
That was what the Army told the WaPo on Saturday:
However, after the Kentucky Derby (decadent and depraved) result, SecArmy tweeted:
Sovereignty > Journalism.
On the track. And in 2025 America.
If there was a VIP onboard, it would be a problem for the Administration.
However, after the Kentucky Derby (decadent and depraved) result, SecArmy tweeted:
Sovereignty > Journalism.
On the track. And in 2025 America.
If there was a VIP onboard, it would be a problem for the Administration.
Last edited by LowObservable; 6th May 2025 at 15:16.
Joined: Jul 2013
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From: Within AM radio broadcast range of downtown Chicago
Joined: Jan 2004
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From: Far West Wessex
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From: Toronto
Air traffic control hotline between Pentagon and Reagan Washington National Airport has been broken since 2022
The FAA was not aware the direct line was broken until a May 1 incident where a helicopter circled the Pentagon and caused two flights to abort landings, Franklin McIntosh, the FAAs deputy chief operating officer testified.
Joined: Aug 2009
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From: Texas
A bit more detail on that (Source is Washington Post)
A hotline connecting air traffic controllers at Reagan National Airport and their counterparts at the Pentagon had been “inoperable” since March 2022, a Federal Aviation Administration official confirmed Wednesday.
The line is maintained by the Defense Department, and the aviation agency was not aware of the outage, Franklin McIntosh, the deputy head of air traffic control, testified at a Senate hearing Wednesday. Aviation officials learned of the issue after controllers at National, in Arlington, Virginia, had to order two flights to abandon landing attempts this month due to an Army helicopter heading to the Pentagon.
“We’re insisting on that line to be fixed before we resume any operations out of the Pentagon,” McIntosh said.
The incident this month raised fresh questions about coordination between the military and the FAA in the busy airspace around the airport.
McIntosh confirmed that after the incident, officials weighed whether to suspend an agreement that allows the military to fly in the Washington area without receiving clearance beforehand from the FAA. Before the FAA took that step, however, the Army unit in Virginia announced that it would once again suspend helicopter flights to the Pentagon while it carried out a review.
The Army did not immediately respond to questions about the hotline.
The line is maintained by the Defense Department, and the aviation agency was not aware of the outage, Franklin McIntosh, the deputy head of air traffic control, testified at a Senate hearing Wednesday. Aviation officials learned of the issue after controllers at National, in Arlington, Virginia, had to order two flights to abandon landing attempts this month due to an Army helicopter heading to the Pentagon.
“We’re insisting on that line to be fixed before we resume any operations out of the Pentagon,” McIntosh said.
The incident this month raised fresh questions about coordination between the military and the FAA in the busy airspace around the airport.
McIntosh confirmed that after the incident, officials weighed whether to suspend an agreement that allows the military to fly in the Washington area without receiving clearance beforehand from the FAA. Before the FAA took that step, however, the Army unit in Virginia announced that it would once again suspend helicopter flights to the Pentagon while it carried out a review.
The Army did not immediately respond to questions about the hotline.
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 905
Likes: 321
From: Virginia, USA
Pentagon lost contact with Army helo that caused DC jet diversions
Brig. Gen. Matthew Braman, the head of Army aviation, told the AP in an exclusive interview that the controllers lost contact with the Black Hawk because a temporary control tower antenna was not set up in a location where it would be able to maintain contact with the helicopter as it flew low and rounded the Pentagon to land. He said the antenna was set up during construction of a new control tower and has now been moved to the roof of the Pentagon.
Braman said federal air traffic controllers inside the Washington airport also didn’t have a good fix on the location of the helicopter. The Black Hawk was transmitting data that should have given controllers its precise location, but Braman said FAA officials told him in meetings last week that the data the controllers were getting from multiple feeds and sensors was inconclusive, with some of it deviating by as much as three-quarters of a mile.
Because of the 20-second loss of contact, the Pentagon’s tower did not clear the Black Hawk to land, so the helicopter circled the Pentagon a second time. That’s when air traffic controllers at the airport decided to abort the landing of a second jet, a Republic Airways Embraer E170, because they did not have a confident fix on the Black Hawk’s location, Braman said.
Braman said federal air traffic controllers inside the Washington airport also didn’t have a good fix on the location of the helicopter. The Black Hawk was transmitting data that should have given controllers its precise location, but Braman said FAA officials told him in meetings last week that the data the controllers were getting from multiple feeds and sensors was inconclusive, with some of it deviating by as much as three-quarters of a mile.
Because of the 20-second loss of contact, the Pentagon’s tower did not clear the Black Hawk to land, so the helicopter circled the Pentagon a second time. That’s when air traffic controllers at the airport decided to abort the landing of a second jet, a Republic Airways Embraer E170, because they did not have a confident fix on the Black Hawk’s location, Braman said.
Joined: Jan 2004
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From: Far West Wessex
Apols for the crude graphic. But this shows the relative location of Route 5 (along I-395), the Pentagon, the DCA tower, and the Pentagon city cluster of high-rises including the new Amazon HQ2. At the altitude the helo was flying, it would be largely masked from the tower. explaining why they "didn't have a good fix".
It would also be good to know who was on board that helicopter and why it was Pete Hairgelseth.
It would also be good to know who was on board that helicopter and why it was Pete Hairgelseth.
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From: Nearby
NTSB scheduled 3 day investigative hearing starting July 30
Pegase Driver
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From: Europe
action is taking place with changes on the routes :
(source Ops group Briefing ).
The FAA has made significant changes to helicopter flight zones south of the airport, effective June 12. They are now restricted from flying over a large portion of the Potomac River and have been moved further away from fixed wing arrival and departure paths. There’s a new route called the ‘Broad Creek Transition’ which provides greater vertical separation for heli transits south of the field. It is the latest in a series of safety improvements since January’s tragic collision.
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From: Within AM radio broadcast range of downtown Chicago
"U.S. Army Aviation head reassigned ahead of DCA crash [NTSB] hearing"
From non-paywalled content published today by The Air Current (quoted without any change):
U.S. Army Brigadier General Matthew Braman has rotated out of his role as Director of Army Aviation, leaving the branchs central aviation office without clear leadership in the wake of Januarys fatal midair collision between an Army Black Hawk helicopter and a PSA Airlines CRJ700 near Washington, D.C.s Reagan National Airport (DCA).
An Army official told The Air Current that the move was made as a part of the Department of Defenses broader effort to streamline its general officer workforce. Going forward, the role will be filled by a lower ranking Army Colonel (O-6), the official said, though the Army declined to comment on who is currently serving in Bramans former role or who is expected to fill it.
Army personnel and others involved in the DCA investigation are due to appear starting on July 30 at the U.S. National Transportation Safety Boards three-day hearing on the crash to submit sworn testimony and answer investigators questions. Braman is expected to testify during the hearing, TAC has learned.
U.S. Army Brigadier General Matthew Braman has rotated out of his role as Director of Army Aviation, leaving the branchs central aviation office without clear leadership in the wake of Januarys fatal midair collision between an Army Black Hawk helicopter and a PSA Airlines CRJ700 near Washington, D.C.s Reagan National Airport (DCA).
An Army official told The Air Current that the move was made as a part of the Department of Defenses broader effort to streamline its general officer workforce. Going forward, the role will be filled by a lower ranking Army Colonel (O-6), the official said, though the Army declined to comment on who is currently serving in Bramans former role or who is expected to fill it.
Army personnel and others involved in the DCA investigation are due to appear starting on July 30 at the U.S. National Transportation Safety Boards three-day hearing on the crash to submit sworn testimony and answer investigators questions. Braman is expected to testify during the hearing, TAC has learned.
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From: Bremen
Joined: Nov 2010
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From: Canada
NTSB published the animation for that investigative hearing at https://youtu.be/SQm-fRrNMjM . It didn't tell me anything new. The hearing itself is not on their youtube channel (yet).
So may 'what ifs' could change the outcome. A "caution - VFR helicopter traffic below - southbound along river" call out to the CRJ crew by ATC could of made the difference. The helciopter crew staying at or below 200 could of made the difference.
Its amazing that this was considered "the norm" in that area.
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 905
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From: Virginia, USA
Up to 205 documents now in the docket, including composite CVR transcript. Couple of things jumped out:
1. PAT25 PF started to turn right at Cabin John (American Legion Bridge), which would have taken them toward Great Falls; i.e., up the Potomac. IP had to tell PF to turn left, which would start track down Potomac River (helo route 1). Odd. Not the best SA by PF.
2. No discussion in the PAT25 cockpit about the called CRJ traffic.
3. PSA Captain/PF expressed to PM a preference for continuing to runway 1 but accepted runway 33. Media will make a big deal out of this. I dont think it is.
1. PAT25 PF started to turn right at Cabin John (American Legion Bridge), which would have taken them toward Great Falls; i.e., up the Potomac. IP had to tell PF to turn left, which would start track down Potomac River (helo route 1). Odd. Not the best SA by PF.
2. No discussion in the PAT25 cockpit about the called CRJ traffic.
3. PSA Captain/PF expressed to PM a preference for continuing to runway 1 but accepted runway 33. Media will make a big deal out of this. I dont think it is.
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From: Within AM radio broadcast range of downtown Chicago
The Air Current also is live blogging the hearing.
Some interesting items (of information) apart from the testimony has been posted so far.
Some interesting items (of information) apart from the testimony has been posted so far.
Joined: Jul 2013
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From: Within AM radio broadcast range of downtown Chicago
After Day 1 , , , ,
Watched most of the hearing today.
Aviation community and espeically professionals (and others in cheap seats like mine) owe TAC a big Kudos! for the live updates.
I'm not going to restate in depth one of the fundamental legal issues looming in the litigation in which this accident will be dissected; just a cursory summary, for context.
The main defendants, from a liability standpoint, are the two federal government entities and not the airline - quite obviously because as someone upthread observed, the Bluestreak 5342 pilots "owned" the last segment of airspace to be traversed to the runway. Pulling the airline in for deep pockets and insurers is not the issue for liability analysis.
But the federal government in all its actors and agents is protected by sovereign immunity. But -- it also has waived, in other words legally discontinued, its sovereign immunity (by the Federal Tort Claims Act) for many types of alleged wrongful acts. BUT -- there is an exception to its opening itself up to lawsuits - if the action or omission being challenged is a matter of "discretionary functions", in other words the making of policy, immunity is still in place. Only if the act or omission is a "ministerial function" is Uncle open to suit (Uncle Sam, that is). Generally, alleged failure to follow established rules and policies.
Well, if I were in this case, I first would have hit the 7-11 for a six-pack of Giant Size energy drinks, because I would be awake for a week gathering cases and writing preliminary briefs about the glaring nature of the FAA's action - actually an omission - in not adding something on the order of "hot spot" or its equivalent to the pertinent charts. I mean, "policy factors" in that slippery bit of bureaucratic box-checking? (I wasn't tuned in for the exchange in which the FAA witness indicated - according to the TAC live update, that LAX had requested a similar notation relative to helicopter traffic, which FAA did add, but FAA did not suggest anything for DCA because DCA had only requested "hot spot" which, of course, is for surface congestion points not airspace. But FAA let the situation continue unabated, unaddressed? No wonder the cool-as-ice Chair is said to have lost it, her cool that is, over this FAA testimony.)
Forecasting how legal issues will run and play out can be foolish indeed. Perhaps watching the NTSB "animation" - including actual video footage of the two aircraft colliding in mid-air - has wrenched my senses so as to yield a sense of blood in the water. Lawyer, sharks, their similiarities, all that trip.
WillowRun 6-3
And Salute! to the Officer of the United States Army who expressed condolences to the families in attendance, before he started to answer a question that had been addressed to him. A class act, sir.
Aviation community and espeically professionals (and others in cheap seats like mine) owe TAC a big Kudos! for the live updates.
I'm not going to restate in depth one of the fundamental legal issues looming in the litigation in which this accident will be dissected; just a cursory summary, for context.
The main defendants, from a liability standpoint, are the two federal government entities and not the airline - quite obviously because as someone upthread observed, the Bluestreak 5342 pilots "owned" the last segment of airspace to be traversed to the runway. Pulling the airline in for deep pockets and insurers is not the issue for liability analysis.
But the federal government in all its actors and agents is protected by sovereign immunity. But -- it also has waived, in other words legally discontinued, its sovereign immunity (by the Federal Tort Claims Act) for many types of alleged wrongful acts. BUT -- there is an exception to its opening itself up to lawsuits - if the action or omission being challenged is a matter of "discretionary functions", in other words the making of policy, immunity is still in place. Only if the act or omission is a "ministerial function" is Uncle open to suit (Uncle Sam, that is). Generally, alleged failure to follow established rules and policies.
Well, if I were in this case, I first would have hit the 7-11 for a six-pack of Giant Size energy drinks, because I would be awake for a week gathering cases and writing preliminary briefs about the glaring nature of the FAA's action - actually an omission - in not adding something on the order of "hot spot" or its equivalent to the pertinent charts. I mean, "policy factors" in that slippery bit of bureaucratic box-checking? (I wasn't tuned in for the exchange in which the FAA witness indicated - according to the TAC live update, that LAX had requested a similar notation relative to helicopter traffic, which FAA did add, but FAA did not suggest anything for DCA because DCA had only requested "hot spot" which, of course, is for surface congestion points not airspace. But FAA let the situation continue unabated, unaddressed? No wonder the cool-as-ice Chair is said to have lost it, her cool that is, over this FAA testimony.)
Forecasting how legal issues will run and play out can be foolish indeed. Perhaps watching the NTSB "animation" - including actual video footage of the two aircraft colliding in mid-air - has wrenched my senses so as to yield a sense of blood in the water. Lawyer, sharks, their similiarities, all that trip.
WillowRun 6-3
And Salute! to the Officer of the United States Army who expressed condolences to the families in attendance, before he started to answer a question that had been addressed to him. A class act, sir.
Last edited by WillowRun 6-3; 31st July 2025 at 03:41. Reason: Counsel prefer neatness, because it counts.