AA5342 Down DCA
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 78
Likes: 82
From: London
Sad thing is, if the ATCO involved was female I bet that the ill educated misogynist hate mob would be directing more vitriol their way as well. Thank the lord most safety investigations in the modern era are human factors focused out of the public eye, without pitch forks and 'blame' culture.
Joined: Aug 2005
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 612
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From: EDLB
The IP radioed "traffic in sight" which clearly showed that they had the wrong plane, if any in sight and lost both situational awareness. If have no idea why the helicopter had not its ADSB turned on. Training for real sneaking at night through DCA is idiotic as we know now with 20/20 hindsight. Visual separation with several planes in the area is challenging in daylight, let alone at night. You easy miss one.
Joined: Jul 2013
Aviation Qualifications: Non-Aircrew
Posts: 1,391
Likes: 678
From: Within AM radio broadcast range of downtown Chicago
1. So if an "intolerable risk" is identified by the NTSB Chair, your view is that nonethless the pilot flying the helicopter necessarily was incompetent when that risk finally reached occurrence? The Swiss Cheese model requires accounting for all the holes in the block first of all existing somewhere, and then enough of them lining up - but not necessarily all of the holes lining up. The pilot might have been fully competent and might not have been - but the intolerable risk present in the airspace design makes it necessary to know a lot more relevant facts in the record to supoort a logical conclusion.
Or perhaps you'll next assert that Chair Homendy is just covering for DEI.
2. Any second-year associate in a firm of more than three lawyers who has done nothing more than watch five depositions would raiload your argument to the extent it is based on the NYT's twisting of the summary of the CVR about turning left. Directive? Among other things, if the pilot flying was being "directed" then to the extent there is responsibility, it has to be mutual.
3. Whenever I read pieces like the one published in the NYT I wonder if one of the reporters has a close friend working on one of the lawsuits and is just trying to shape public opinion. Even if that speculation is merely a cheap shot, I didn't read anything in the piece which changed the level of "complexity" of the accident. Perhaps it was deeply hidden and required more reading between the lines. Regardless, its publication is a sorry excuse to jump far ahead of the investigations.
Joined: Feb 2008
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From: Aus
She wasn't the aircraft captain? Why is everyone so desperate to destroy this girl while leaving out she was under instruction?
Joined: Dec 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: Where the Quaboag River flows, USA
She was the Pilot Flying, not instruction, evaluation for her skills. There’s a difference, but generally the evaluatee is in command until there is a failed item or a dangerous situation develops and the evaluator has to take over command and controls.
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: London
Joined: Sep 2001
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 2,787
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From: Toronto
"Incompetence" at many levels
Both crews were set up to fail. Considering the near monthly DCA conflicts between helos and fixed wing over a number of years, the surprise is that a midair didn't happen sooner. The data was accumulating, but nobody caught on in time. Not transmitting ADS-B Out in busy airspace and flying in that airspace with night vision goggles restricting view is a major factor. The lack of ADS-B In in the cockpits is another. Then there's the FAA approval of a helo route with inadequate vertical separation from the 33 approach slope along with a lack of ATC procedure to ensure positive separation between helos and aircraft on approach to 33.
Somehow I doubt that all those responsible for those lapses in oversight were female - quite possibly they were all male.
Somehow I doubt that all those responsible for those lapses in oversight were female - quite possibly they were all male.
Joined: Dec 2013
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 990
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From: US
The gender involving crews in accidents and incidents. It’s not proportionally with actual numbers. Delta or its subsidiary has had two minor and one major accident in the last 2 years. All three involved female crew members. Southwest has had at least two serious incidents in the last six months with the same. United has had a similar issue including a severe tailstrike at EWR. Some of the best pilots I flew with were female. The best CA I ever flew with was female. There does however seem to be more of a pass for training issues based on gender. Training to proficiency is not a good safety concept. There needs to be a reasonable standard for how much extra instruction will be provided before someone is asked to leave. I actually believe DEI is a worthy concept but not if you lower standards.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 78
Likes: 82
From: London
The gender involving crews in accidents and incidents. It’s not proportionally with actual numbers. Delta or its subsidiary has had two minor and one major accident in the last 2 years. All three involved female crew members. Southwest has had at least two serious incidents in the last six months with the same. United has had a similar issue including a severe tailstrike at EWR. Some of the best pilots I flew with were female. The best CA I ever flew with was female. There does however seem to be more of a pass for training issues based on gender. Training to proficiency is not a good safety concept. There needs to be a reasonable standard for how much extra instruction will be provided before someone is asked to leave. I actually believe DEI is a worthy concept but not if you lower standards.
I mean, here's something I've read that cites actual studies on the matter, not anecdotes.
https://www.newsweek.com/do-women-pi...re-men-1973481
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,549
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From: UK
Joined: Aug 2008
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
Posts: 299
Likes: 31
From: KOLM and KBVS
The gender involving crews in accidents and incidents. It’s not proportionally with actual numbers. Delta or its subsidiary has had two minor and one major accident in the last 2 years. All three involved female crew members. Southwest has had at least two serious incidents in the last six months with the same. United has had a similar issue including a severe tailstrike at EWR. Some of the best pilots I flew with were female. The best CA I ever flew with was female. There does however seem to be more of a pass for training issues based on gender. Training to proficiency is not a good safety concept. There needs to be a reasonable standard for how much extra instruction will be provided before someone is asked to leave. I actually believe DEI is a worthy concept but not if you lower standards.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 831
Likes: 141
From: You live where
Both crews were set up to fail. Considering the near monthly DCA conflicts between helos and fixed wing over a number of years, the surprise is that a midair didn't happen sooner. The data was accumulating, but nobody caught on in time. Not transmitting ADS-B Out in busy airspace and flying in that airspace with night vision goggles restricting view is a major factor. The lack of ADS-B In in the cockpits is another. Then there's the FAA approval of a helo route with inadequate vertical separation from the 33 approach slope along with a lack of ATC procedure to ensure positive separation between helos and aircraft on approach to 33.
Somehow I doubt that all those responsible for those lapses in oversight were female - quite possibly they were all male.
Somehow I doubt that all those responsible for those lapses in oversight were female - quite possibly they were all male.
The CRJ didn't have ADS-B IN, and the ATC Surveillance system (radar) doesn't process the data.
DM as required to convince me otherwise.
Joined: Nov 2004
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From: Here, there, and everywhere
Joined: Dec 2013
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 990
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From: US
If 5% of your crew members are female but statistically they are involved in 60% of your incidents it’s worth looking at why that is happening. As I posted I believe it’s a training issue and possibly hiring issue. That will be my last post on the subject. I knew it would get testy.
Joined: Dec 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: Where the Quaboag River flows, USA
If 5% of your crew members are female but statistically they are involved in 60% of your incidents it’s worth looking at why that is happening. As I posted I believe it’s a training issue and possibly hiring issue. That will be my last post on the subject. I knew it would get testy.
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 49
Likes: 18
From: oakland
The gender involving crews in accidents and incidents. It’s not proportionally with actual numbers. Delta or its subsidiary has had two minor and one major accident in the last 2 years. All three involved female crew members. Southwest has had at least two serious incidents in the last six months with the same. United has had a similar issue including a severe tailstrike at EWR. Some of the best pilots I flew with were female. The best CA I ever flew with was female. There does however seem to be more of a pass for training issues based on gender. Training to proficiency is not a good safety concept. There needs to be a reasonable standard for how much extra instruction will be provided before someone is asked to leave. I actually believe DEI is a worthy concept but not if you lower standards.
It has issues with sample size, it has issues with cherry picking data, it has issues with definitions, it doesn't have a clear hypotheses, it doesn't reference a causal inference method, and I could go on.
As a general rule if you do not understand the following terms p-hacking, bayesian inference, confounding effects, experimental power, I could go on, and have not actually done statistics at a masters level you have no business posting #### like this.
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,682
Likes: 63
From: Far West Wessex
People here and DEI frothers everywhere need to be asking one question:
If this is about one pilot and one operation, and about a single error 15 seconds before a collision on Route 4, why does Route 5 remain almost completely shut down, and not by the FAA?
I have 100% visual and audible on every Route 5 movement from The Lair, even if I'm not at my desk. Seen two operations since the accident.
I suspect that the answer is this: someone reporting to DoD leadership, not Army aviation, came in, took one look at the ops and ops standards, screamed WHISKEY THE ALFA FOXTROT and observed that it was sheer blind luck the accident hadn't happened earlier, and possibly on the 15 approach with a dozen or so teenage soccer players added to the casualty list.
If this is about one pilot and one operation, and about a single error 15 seconds before a collision on Route 4, why does Route 5 remain almost completely shut down, and not by the FAA?
I have 100% visual and audible on every Route 5 movement from The Lair, even if I'm not at my desk. Seen two operations since the accident.
I suspect that the answer is this: someone reporting to DoD leadership, not Army aviation, came in, took one look at the ops and ops standards, screamed WHISKEY THE ALFA FOXTROT and observed that it was sheer blind luck the accident hadn't happened earlier, and possibly on the 15 approach with a dozen or so teenage soccer players added to the casualty list.
Last edited by LowObservable; 29th April 2025 at 15:19.
Joined: Dec 2013
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From: US
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 905
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From: Virginia, USA
If Route 5 is not being used (and Route 4 is shutdown), how are military helicopters accessing JPN?
Prior to the DCA accident, I don’t know that I’d ever seen a UH-60 out my way on Route 9 in nearly 3 decades. Now PAT UH-60s are almost a daily occurrence on Route 9 (saw/heard 4 yesterday). The ADW-based UH-1Ns are also flying Route 9 more frequently.
I maintain the the DC helicopter routes (including Route 4) interior to the Beltway are not inherently unsafe if used with appropriate restrictions and ATC-applied separation.