Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island
de minimus non curat lex
Not trying to defend grey charters but I think there are probably many highly experienced pilots who fly very safely but who have never needed a CPL because they don’t want to earn money from flying.
Agreed as long as they don’t peddle their wares as a professional pilot to an unsuspecting public
Agreed as long as they don’t peddle their wares as a professional pilot to an unsuspecting public
A professional pilot will get airborne provided it is safe to do so in difficult conditions as invariably they are well versed in operating in such conditions. Six monthly simulator sessions (OPC/LPC) & yearly line check, plus days when the FOI decides to observe from the jump seat. Or occasionally an AAIB inspector observing the operation to gleam more information following an event which has taken their interest.
A PPL/IR although experienced and has demonstrated competency in IFR will probably not get airborne in a maximum crosswind on a horrible night, because (wisely) commercial pressure does not exist. A yearly IR renewal & bi-annual check with a FI.
The professional pilot has far greater scrutiny as to their competency than a PPL.
A comparison (not exhaustive) of a professional & private pilot:
A professional pilot will get airborne provided it is safe to do so in difficult conditions as invariably they are well versed in operating in such conditions. Six monthly simulator sessions (OPC/LPC) & yearly line check, plus days when the FOI decides to observe from the jump seat. Or occasionally an AAIB inspector observing the operation to gleam more information following an event which has taken their interest.
A PPL/IR although experienced and has demonstrated competency in IFR will probably not get airborne in a maximum crosswind on a horrible night, because (wisely) commercial pressure does not exist. A yearly IR renewal & bi-annual check with a FI.
The professional pilot has far greater scrutiny as to their competency than a PPL.
A professional pilot will get airborne provided it is safe to do so in difficult conditions as invariably they are well versed in operating in such conditions. Six monthly simulator sessions (OPC/LPC) & yearly line check, plus days when the FOI decides to observe from the jump seat. Or occasionally an AAIB inspector observing the operation to gleam more information following an event which has taken their interest.
A PPL/IR although experienced and has demonstrated competency in IFR will probably not get airborne in a maximum crosswind on a horrible night, because (wisely) commercial pressure does not exist. A yearly IR renewal & bi-annual check with a FI.
The professional pilot has far greater scrutiny as to their competency than a PPL.
The killer of Sala did not have an IR or even a night rating!
I do take your point though.
Skill and legality can be discussed like remain and leave with no definitive answer or should I say no one agreeing
de minimus non curat lex
the “Swiss cheese holes accident model” would not have aligned.
Although the pilot did hold a current IR(R) [IMC Rating] which is only valid in UK airspace, his EASA licence was not current, and no night rating.
Sentencing of David Henderson scheduled for 12 November.
Robert Murgatroyd was sentenced to 40 months in 2019.
His three passengers survived.
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 913
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Had it not been for the Carbon Monoxide poisoning, & possible AP intermittent fault, I suspect that there is every likelyhood that
the “Swiss cheese holes accident model” would not have aligned.
Although the pilot did hold a current IR(R) [IMC Rating] which is only valid in UK airspace, his EASA licence was not current, and no night rating.
the “Swiss cheese holes accident model” would not have aligned.
Although the pilot did hold a current IR(R) [IMC Rating] which is only valid in UK airspace, his EASA licence was not current, and no night rating.
We’ll never know but there’s still more than enough holes to perfectly align for an incident on this trip with the known issues without any CO issues that may have contributed.
Sala was likely under ‘commercial pressure’ too. He was due in Cardiff for his first training session on a multi million pound deal. It’s reasonable to assume he wouldn’t want to let down everyone in the football side of the chain, particularly as the trip was a private one to say goodbye to previous Nantes players, rather than part of the commercial deal.
If he knew might he have thought ok it’s a bit poor, but it got me here ok and it’s only two hours and I need to be in Cardiff early tomorrow morning. Would the man on the street roll the dice as flying is so safe?
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: York
Age: 68
Posts: 250
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would suggest that if there was the will to stop bent charters, it could be stopped.
Perhaps some strong lobbying? I'm sure a lot of pilots on here know what, when and who, but don't like the idea of "grassing" Suggestions?
Perhaps some strong lobbying? I'm sure a lot of pilots on here know what, when and who, but don't like the idea of "grassing" Suggestions?
de minimus non curat lex
There is no shade of white in these “grey charters”. They are unlawful.
In the short term, the CAA need better sources of information, a ‘CRIMESTOPPERS’ number ( an email address exists) and forensic accountants.
In the long term until the politicians “come on board” not a lot will change.
Beef up the legislation & penalties on illegal charters.
Some of the wording in Terrorism Acts might be a useful starting point where even possibly knowing and not reporting suspicions is an offence [‘light blue touch paper and retire’ moment on my part]
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 913
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting one.
Sala was likely under ‘commercial pressure’ too. He was due in Cardiff for his first training session on a multi million pound deal. It’s reasonable to assume he wouldn’t want to let down everyone in the football side of the chain, particularly as the trip was a private one to say goodbye to previous Nantes players, rather than part of the commercial deal.
If he knew might he have thought ok it’s a bit poor, but it got me here ok and it’s only two hours and I need to be in Cardiff early tomorrow morning. Would the man on the street roll the dice as flying is so safe?
Sala was likely under ‘commercial pressure’ too. He was due in Cardiff for his first training session on a multi million pound deal. It’s reasonable to assume he wouldn’t want to let down everyone in the football side of the chain, particularly as the trip was a private one to say goodbye to previous Nantes players, rather than part of the commercial deal.
If he knew might he have thought ok it’s a bit poor, but it got me here ok and it’s only two hours and I need to be in Cardiff early tomorrow morning. Would the man on the street roll the dice as flying is so safe?
Of course it doesn’t get past my earlier assertion that if I fly friends for free on my PPL/IR it doesn’t make me or them any safer than if I was charging them for the flight: same pilot, same aircraft, same risks. FTAOD that’s not intended as any kind of defence for grey charters!
" Some of the wording in Terrorism Acts might be a useful starting point where even possibly knowing and not reporting suspicions is an offence [‘light blue touch paper and retire’ moment on my part] "
Now that could be 'challenging' to say the least ! I can see all sorts of issues around 'knowing'. and proof. Certainly encouraging a reporting cultures in areas where there is a clear safety element might be feasible, though I feel the 'authorities' have already shot themselves in the foot with their rather silly campaign to encourage us to shop anyone who we think may be illegally transporting immigrants or drugs. Apart from it being a rather nasty 'shop your neighbour' idea, the folk I saw explaining this showed considerable ignorance of flight aircraft flying and took no interest whatever in real aircraft crime - such as the thefts of Rotax engines from hangars across the country. Clearly not part of their tasks and targets!
So I suspect many pilots would simply ignore all this. Not worth the hassle and aggro.
I entirely agree; some serious forensic accounting would be a great help, in this and many other areas. Far too many dubious activities in the UK are hidden away; I suspect many accountants and auditors are well aware of where the dodge parts are - some useful tactical blindness occurs no doubt !
Now that could be 'challenging' to say the least ! I can see all sorts of issues around 'knowing'. and proof. Certainly encouraging a reporting cultures in areas where there is a clear safety element might be feasible, though I feel the 'authorities' have already shot themselves in the foot with their rather silly campaign to encourage us to shop anyone who we think may be illegally transporting immigrants or drugs. Apart from it being a rather nasty 'shop your neighbour' idea, the folk I saw explaining this showed considerable ignorance of flight aircraft flying and took no interest whatever in real aircraft crime - such as the thefts of Rotax engines from hangars across the country. Clearly not part of their tasks and targets!
So I suspect many pilots would simply ignore all this. Not worth the hassle and aggro.
I entirely agree; some serious forensic accounting would be a great help, in this and many other areas. Far too many dubious activities in the UK are hidden away; I suspect many accountants and auditors are well aware of where the dodge parts are - some useful tactical blindness occurs no doubt !
Interesting one.
Sala was likely under ‘commercial pressure’ too. He was due in Cardiff for his first training session on a multi million pound deal. It’s reasonable to assume he wouldn’t want to let down everyone in the football side of the chain, particularly as the trip was a private one to say goodbye to previous Nantes players, rather than part of the commercial deal.
If he knew might he have thought ok it’s a bit poor, but it got me here ok and it’s only two hours and I need to be in Cardiff early tomorrow morning. Would the man on the street roll the dice as flying is so safe?
Sala was likely under ‘commercial pressure’ too. He was due in Cardiff for his first training session on a multi million pound deal. It’s reasonable to assume he wouldn’t want to let down everyone in the football side of the chain, particularly as the trip was a private one to say goodbye to previous Nantes players, rather than part of the commercial deal.
If he knew might he have thought ok it’s a bit poor, but it got me here ok and it’s only two hours and I need to be in Cardiff early tomorrow morning. Would the man on the street roll the dice as flying is so safe?
Like jonzarno I suspect that sort of thinking may well have entered into Sala’s decision making..
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: UK
Age: 60
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The football agent was well aware of what was going on, he had his own aircraft doing the same type of flights as far back as 2016….. flown by Henderson and Murgatroyd amongst others before it was crash landed having substantially overflown its maintenance check period. The CAA weren’t interested then and I doubt they will be now- too much historic face to lose.
Sala was likely under ‘commercial pressure’ too. He was due in Cardiff for his first training session on a multi million pound deal. It’s reasonable to assume he wouldn’t want to let down everyone in the football side of the chain, particularly as the trip was a private one to say goodbye to previous Nantes players, rather than part of the commercial deal.
KLM depart Nantes 1715 arrive Amsterdam 1900
KLM depart Amsterdam 2120 arrive Cardiff 2140
Sala arrived at the airport at 1830, they departed at 1900, ETA at Cardiff about 2100. Not a lot of difference.
The football agent was well aware of what was going on, he had his own aircraft doing the same type of flights as far back as 2016….. flown by Henderson and Murgatroyd amongst others before it was crash landed having substantially overflown its maintenance check period. The CAA weren’t interested then and I doubt they will be now- too much historic face to lose.
Strewth - another layer in the murky world this has revealed. Truly disgraceful if true that the CAA seems content to let this mess alone.
I understand about the 'face problem, but there must come a pint where the embarrassment plus potentially the threat of legal action will move them. Given their recently increased & somewhat aggressive seeming readiness to drop heavily on misdemeanours by ordinary private pilots going about relatively routine activities and making what in many cases are evidently honest mistakes, this is poor, to say the least.
. flown by Henderson and Murgatroyd amongst others before it was crash landed having substantially overflown its maintenance check period.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: UK
Age: 60
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The AAIB report was based on information provided by the pilot…….. no proper field investigation and no interest in the legality of the operation. No doubt difficult for the AAIB to follow through but the CAA were aware. If only it had been nipped in the bud back then.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Hertfordshire
Age: 70
Posts: 292
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Say half hour booking in at Amsterdam makes it double the time. And what if he did arrive at Nantes for a commercial flight departure at 1830, could he have got a flight then (he seems to have been delayed for his flight so perhaps it also was not possible to arrive earlier then 1830).
de minimus non curat lex
You need your appendix removed (job offer in Antarctica).
Do I go to a qualified surgeon for a straightforward operation, or go with a failed medical student (Ibbotson failed to complete his CPL groundschool course) to performs surgery for half the price. The failed medical student had performed similar operations: they were essentially successful although there had been some post operative complications (CAA correspondence to ac owner)in the past.
So far as your friends are concerned they go flying with you in the full knowledge (hopefully?) you are not a professional pilot who is subject to jumping through the prescribed hoops every 6 monthly. They weigh up that ‘risk’ and make a decision. As statistically small as it might be, a sudden loss of power [Engine fail of the one engine just after lift off] on a single pilot multi engined piston will invariably prove fatal. Loss of Control.
It would require a serious level of skill given the sudden reduction (90%) in Performance. This critical situation is unlikely to be practiced.
I didn’t fully appreciate the serious reduction in performance until I started undertaking C of A renewal flight tests on the Seneca 3 at PIK last century. The single engine 5 minute climb sequence certainly opened my eyes as to just what a loss of power just after rotation would involve. You need to be mentally prepared on every launch.
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Encamp
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If I take three people I don’t know for a flight in my aircraft, for example flying veterans and their helpers to Project Propeller, and don’t charge them, that is deemed to be legal and, by implication, to offer an acceptable level of safety. If I charge them for the flight illegally, it doesn’t change the level of the danger they face even though I would be committing an offence.
The 2 scenarios you outline are in no way symmetrical/ analogous.
In the first scenario, you are the boss. If you say that the flight is off, disappointment apart, there is no pressure on you not to exercise your judgement.
In the second case, the punters didn't pay you to cry off at the last minute. They're paying you good money, maybe in cash, for you to get them there and they don't take kindly to last minute hitches.
Even more importantly perhaps, you know that if you call the flight off, the financial repercussions for you are real.
Hence, I submit, the danger of a non-professional decision over the decision to fly or not to fly is much higher in the second case than in the first.
'So far, so abstract'
One real issue I have seen alluded to in the last few pages but not developped, I reckon, is the element of teaching or instilling what I might call professional judgement in the more advanced licence examinations which the pilot involved in this sad case had not undertaken .
My worry is not with the issue of teaching but rather with the issue of the ability of commercial pilots to exercise this judgement in the real world of national/ international aviation.
The posts which I have seen here have taken it as read that the commercially trained pilot has imbibed these principles and that there is no pressure not to exercise professional judgement when needed.
As a less than enthusiatic flyer, I would love to believe this was the case. But it does seem a somewhat idealised picture given the commercial pressures involved.