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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island

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Old 26th Oct 2021, 09:38
  #2181 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Mike Flynn
Perhaps the question about why private aircraft operators choose the N reg option should be addressed to Grant Shapps? There is clearly a problem with the paperwork and over legislation in the UK.
Grant Shapps himself has an N reg aircraft!
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Old 26th Oct 2021, 17:09
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Originally Posted by Timmy Tomkins
Grant Shapps himself has an N reg aircraft!
I doubt he’s using it for illegal charter work, though.
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Old 26th Oct 2021, 20:30
  #2183 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Timmy Tomkins
Grant Shapps himself has an N reg aircraft!
Although nothing to do with the Sala case, it really doesn't send a good message that the secretary responsible for the CAA registers his own PA-32R in the USA. Perhaps the chairman of the CAA would like to comment why people do it.
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Old 27th Oct 2021, 09:38
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The jury has now retired to consider their verdict.
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Old 27th Oct 2021, 19:01
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Originally Posted by WHBM
Although nothing to do with the Sala case, it really doesn't send a good message that the secretary responsible for the CAA registers his own PA-32R in the USA. Perhaps the chairman of the CAA would like to comment why people do it.
I struggle with the concept a bit: if there are, for example, PA-32Rs on the UK register anyway what's the point of not transferring a US aircraft across when it gets here? Is it purely the cost of reregistering?
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Old 27th Oct 2021, 20:44
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Originally Posted by alfaman
I struggle with the concept a bit: if there are, for example, PA-32Rs on the UK register anyway what's the point of not transferring a US aircraft across when it gets here? Is it purely the cost of reregistering?
It's a long time since I shared an N reg in the UK but IIRC the maintenance regime is a lot less taxing. In particular I think the owner can do more unsupervised maintenance than on the G register.
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Old 27th Oct 2021, 22:14
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It's also a lot cheaper for an individual to get an FAA licence than an EASA (sorry, CAA) one.
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Old 28th Oct 2021, 09:33
  #2188 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks both: so it's just about saving money: not sure I'd want to fly in an aircraft Mr Shapps had been self spannering...
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Old 28th Oct 2021, 11:00
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Guilty

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...trial-21887929
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Old 28th Oct 2021, 11:02
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Now we can all talk about it.
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Old 28th Oct 2021, 12:31
  #2191 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by runway30
Now we can all talk about it.
I think it has all been said in the comments leading up to this verdict.

Henderson was clearly a rogue operator who wanted to blame everyone but himself for this tragedy. There will always be those who want to take advantage of free or paid flying without the necessary qualifications and sadly the pilot was in that category.

Family statement

Daniel Machover, of Hickman & Rose solicitors, said: “Mr Henderson’s convictions are welcome and we hope the CAA will ensure that illegal flights of this kind are stopped. The actions of David Henderson are only one piece in the puzzle of how the plane David Ibbotson was illegally flying came to crash into the sea on 21 January 2019.

“We still do not know the key information about the maintenance history of the aircraft and all the factors behind the carbon monoxide poisoning revealed in August 2019 by AAIB.

“The answers to these questions can only be properly established at Emiliano’s inquest, which is due to start in February next year.

“The Sala family fervently hope that everyone involved in the inquest will provide full disclosure of material without further delay, including Piper Aircraft Inc and the AAIB. This should ensure that the inquest can fulfil its function of fully and fearlessly examining the evidence so that all the facts emerge. Only if that happens will Emiliano’s family finally know the truth about this tragedy enabling all the lessons to be learned, so that no family goes through a similar preventable death.”
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Old 28th Oct 2021, 14:03
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From the BBC:"However Stephen Spence QC, defending, had said his client's actions were "purely a paperwork issue" and had not led to a likelihood of danger....

Mr Spence told the court the only difference between a commercial licence and the private licence held by Mr Ibbotson was whether you could carry passengers for money or not, rather than ability."

Ouch!



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Old 28th Oct 2021, 14:06
  #2193 (permalink)  
 
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Have there been previous prosecutions by the CAA or convictions for similar activity? There may have been but it took the poor Sala family to suffer this avoidable tragedy to raise the profile of this type of activity. I hope it has an impact on public awareness as well as the CAA's policy of dealing with dodgy customers. I am sure we have all known a few
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Old 28th Oct 2021, 14:09
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Originally Posted by vanHorck
From the BBC:"However Stephen Spence QC, defending, had said his client's actions were "purely a paperwork issue" and had not led to a likelihood of danger....

Mr Spence told the court the only difference between a commercial licence and the private licence held by Mr Ibbotson was whether you could carry passengers for money or not, rather than ability."

Ouch!
We posted simultaneously. This demonstrates total ignorance of aviation and I suspect that most members of the public will know no different
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Old 28th Oct 2021, 14:33
  #2195 (permalink)  
 
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As a member of the public, I did once vaguely consider exploring getting ‘someone’ to fly us and our luggage from Jersey to ‘somewhere near Heathrow’ to connect to a proper long-haul airline flight. I then took a Sensible Pill. In any case, My Lady wouldn’t consider such an activity with just one engine and one pilot.
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Old 28th Oct 2021, 14:44
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Really? I think many of us have accepted a lift in a vehicle with one driver and one engine without knowing the licences held by said driver or condition, legal or otherwise of the vehicle. Not the same exactly but a similar mindset I would suggest.
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Old 28th Oct 2021, 14:45
  #2197 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Timmy Tomkins
Have there been previous prosecutions by the CAA or convictions for similar activity? There may have been but it took the poor Sala family to suffer this avoidable tragedy to raise the profile of this type of activity. I hope it has an impact on public awareness as well as the CAA's policy of dealing with dodgy customers. I am sure we have all known a few
Unfortunately it is very difficult area to investigate. All the parties involved will have an interest in staying silent, very little (nothing?) will be committed to paper, use of text or email is recognised as potentially incriminating, phone records may still reveal something, but use of "burner" phones is becoming quite common and payment may be hidden in all sorts of ways. The CAA may have strong suspicions that unlawful activity is going on, but mounting an investigation that might stand any realistic chance of gaining the evidence to justify a charge, let alone proceed to prosecution would be eye wateringly expensive.

Look at it from this perspective, if the aircraft had not crashed that night how would the CAA have been in a position to investigate the circumstances of the flight? What grounds were there to open an investigation, they would have needed a well founded complaint or have been otherwise presented with sufficient evidence to investigate whether or not an offence had occurred. It is deeply sad that in this it took the tragic deaths of two people before action could commence, but it's how the law works. Fishing around for evidence purely on the basis of suspicion is the stuff of a police state.

YS
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Old 28th Oct 2021, 14:53
  #2198 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Timmy Tomkins
We posted simultaneously. This demonstrates total ignorance of aviation and I suspect that most members of the public will know no different
I qualify as I'm a member of the public and whilst I've learnt a lot as a result of reading on this case I still fail to see how only having a private licence makes someone an incompetent pilot. Likewise the fact that the pilot's qualification for flying this plane expired a few months before the flight.

Similarly it seems that despite flying at night and a threat of cloudy/wet conditions it seems possible for a VFR pilot with an instrument rating to attempt this flight. I know the AIAB report rightly criticises the pilot for this but I presume the pilot's decision to fly is controversial rather then just plain wrong. A matter of judgement, not law.
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Old 28th Oct 2021, 15:25
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Originally Posted by Hipper
I qualify as I'm a member of the public and whilst I've learnt a lot as a result of reading on this case I still fail to see how only having a private licence makes someone an incompetent pilot. Likewise the fact that the pilot's qualification for flying this plane expired a few months before the flight.

Similarly it seems that despite flying at night and a threat of cloudy/wet conditions it seems possible for a VFR pilot with an instrument rating to attempt this flight. I know the AIAB report rightly criticises the pilot for this but I presume the pilot's decision to fly is controversial rather then just plain wrong. A matter of judgement, not law.
You are missing the point somewhat. International and UK regulations require an operator to obtain an Air Operators Certificate (AOC) to be able to commercially operate an aircraft where payment is to be made for carriage of passengers or freight. This is to ensure that operations can be carried out safely in accordance with prescribed standards. The AOC requires a documented system approved by the safety regulator which would cover all aspects of the operation including the airworthiness of the aircraft, qualifications of the pilots and also the competence of the pilots to carry out flights in accordance with standards prescribed in the AOC. This operator did not have an AOC therefore the standards of the operation were not known and as demonstrated by this tragic accident were far below what was necessary to effect a safe operation. As previously said in this thread, this was a rogue operation to avoid the expense that would be required to establish a fully approved AOC.

It is not a matter of judgement. The pilot did breach UK law as prescribed in the Air Navigation Order. 1. Flight at night without the prescribed rating. 2. Carrying out a commercial flight without an Air Operators Certificate.
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Old 28th Oct 2021, 15:26
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Originally Posted by Hipper
I qualify as I'm a member of the public and whilst I've learnt a lot as a result of reading on this case I still fail to see how only having a private licence makes someone an incompetent pilot. Likewise the fact that the pilot's qualification for flying this plane expired a few months before the flight.

Similarly it seems that despite flying at night and a threat of cloudy/wet conditions it seems possible for a VFR pilot with an instrument rating to attempt this flight. I know the AIAB report rightly criticises the pilot for this but I presume the pilot's decision to fly is controversial rather then just plain wrong. A matter of judgement, not law.
I think this shows how deceitful this defence was. To the public a pilot is a pilot, the only difference between private and commercial is that one can take money, an AOC is just paperwork and you still have a rating even after you have failed to revalidate it.

As all the commercial pilots on here will shout as one, they have to demonstrate that they can fly and then maintain a much higher standard than a private pilot to a common and consistent standard. Private pilots vary from the good to the downright dangerous but at no point do they have to fly to the standard or have the knowledge of a commercial pilot.

An AOC isn't just paperwork. It is hard to get and hard to maintain because the public have to have confidence that the aircraft they get into is operated and maintained to a high standard with properly qualified pilots at the controls. None of that was available in Henderson's business. Sometimes they will get lucky, sometimes they won't but that is no way to run an air transport operation and it is bad that some members of the public can be convinced that all the layers of safety aren't necessary.
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