British Airways - CC Industrial Relations & Negotiations

[Human Factor]

What has prompted this YES vote in such an overwhelming majority is fear that this is the thin end of the wedge and the beginning of the end for a career which many have invested their lives in.

If you lose, BA will not replace the crew who were taken off. When they recruit next, they will recruit your cheaper replacements onto New Fleet.

If you win, BA will replace the crew who were taken off. When they recruit next (sooner perhaps), they will recruit your cheaper replacements onto New Fleet.

Now, remind me why you're striking again?

[4468]

30-40% wage reduction

If some high earners had 30-40% a wage reduction i think they wouldn't be happy and im not saying any particular occupation. We as cabin crew are fighting to save our terms and conditions and that is fact and nothing more can be said until the Wee man understands.

To Watersidewonker and Flying Chick.

It is the case that NO cabin Crew terms and conditions have changed. No Cabin Crew member is required to attend work more often. No cabin Crew have received one penny of paycuts.

Those are FACTS.

All that has happened is that, on long haul for example, the work previously done by 15 people, is now done by 14. This reduction is largely mitigated by the fact that the Cabin Service Director is now part of the cabin service routine, when they had not previously been. (Incidentally, he or she will typically earn circa £50-£60k if full time)

I presume everyone accepts BA are losing money and must make savings??

My question is, what do you imagine would be a better outcome than what you already have??

Would you really prefer to have the same deal as 'the pilots'?? Which for the avoidance of doubt is 2.61% permanently off basic salary, and 20% reduction in allowances? (For me that represents £4k per year!) All for the carrot of a 'share scheme' which has not a cat in hell's chance of paying out!

Or do you have some other ideas (that would need their value to be independently verified!)

Or do you just want Willy out (to be replaced perhaps by an O'Leary clone?)

Or do you just want to be left alone whilst your colleagues reduce their T&Cs to protect yours?

It is after all pretty stupid to fight a war unless you know what victory will look like??

I suggest you need to do some 'grown up' thinking, rather than the 'spoon fed' variety you seem to have swallowed. Because when you and your families are bearing the result of your INDIVIDUAL decisions (which is inevitable) the Unite officials will STILL be travelling the World in First Class!

I'm serious. Engage your brains!

[ottergirl]

'the heavy heavy' post is despicable. I too have complained to the moderators. If you can not keep it civil, then keep it to yourself. You are hating 13,000 individuals which is not healthy and, as a professional pilot, you're expected to be able to rise above such pettiness for the sake of CRM if nothing else. Given your state of mind I would suggest you are unfit to lead a team and should be requesting a leave of absense and some counselling to help you deal with some clearly unresolved issues. GET HELP NOW!

[HiFlyer14]

If you have voted yes, and are now beginning to realise what this Union is about, then feel free to cut and paste the following resignation letter that I have sent. Can't find an email address for Mr McCluskey - any help??

Mr Len McCluskey
Unite
35 King Street
Covent Garden
London
WC2E 8JG

Dear Mr McCluskey,

Please accept my resignation from the union Unite. I am resigning due to the deplorable actions and stance that this Union has taken over the past 9 months.

Despite there being the biggest world recession on since World War II, the union have dismissed the need to make savings for BA. BA have been reasonable in every manner. They have not made compulsory redundancies, they have not imposed pay cuts, and they have not forcibly reduced our working hours. But still Unite refuses to co-operate and meet them in the middle.

The ballot paper was completely unnecessary. You had the opportunity to negotiate a decent monthly payment which would have secured our position against New Fleet. You didn’t do that. You had the opportunity to ask all the members what they wanted, but you didn’t do that either. You have, in 9 months, achieved absolutely nothing for us but instead you have now enormous worry and anxiety to the lives of millions of customers and thousands of employees.

Now, on top of the anxiety, you are putting us to immense public shame. You claim that we are the best cabin crew in the world. We are not. Try Singapore, Cathay, Emirates to name but a few. You claim that you are concerned about the passenger service. Well, they’re not passengers, they’re customers. And where is your fickle concern when families will be apart this Christmas due to your selfish actions?

I love my job, I love working for BA but I abhor the Union and the negative, militant, selfish attitude that it inflicts on our community.

I hope that you feel proud of the shame that you have brought on our once great community, along with the financial damage that you are now causing to our once great airline.

Unions are supposed to save jobs; what will you say to the 50,000 BA employees worldwide when you and your despicable actions are the cause of this company going bankrupt?

Yours sincerely,

[Justanotherpax]

Oh dear, looks like your union leaders have grossly misjudged public opinion . Calling the strike over Christmas (not what cabin crew voted for, as I understand) could be the biggest own goal in union history!!! How exactly did they expect people to react?

As customer-facing cabin crew, don't you feel a little let down / misrepresented? I can't believe for one minute any one of you would vote to stage this action over the christmas period, if polled on that question by your union leaders.

Let's hope Bassa see a little bit of sense and move the industrial action into January at least.

That way you may come out of this with a sliver of public sympathy.

JustAnotherPassenger

[fincastle84]

Courtney

thier customers simply turn up and get on the aeroplane.

Glad to see that your spelling STILL hasn't improved. How embarrassing.

[Mr Optimistic]

are these statements true ?

'When easyJet flies from Gatwick to Sharm el Sheikh in Egypt, its cabin crew stay for no more than an hour before coming back; when BA flies the same route, the crew get two or three nights, on full pay and while staying in a five-star hotel, to enjoy the Red Sea coast.

All that has happened is that, on long haul for example, the work previously done by 15 people, is now done by 14. This reduction is largely mitigated by the fact that the Cabin Service Director is now part of the cabin service routine, when they had not previously been. (Incidentally, he or she will typically earn circa £50-£60k if full time).'

Blimey, I have two degrees, never been out of employment, worked 8am to 6am recently to get job done, no overtime, and I get £4*k. How does being CC differ from other hospitality work (eg working in a hotel, having to manage reception then help in the restaurant ?), that the pay is this good ? I can tie a double bow too !

Seems that all ex-government run companies (think Royal Mail and the railways) are plagued by poor management and inefficient staffing cultures.

[Perry-oaks]

Te latest from Cloud Cuckoo Land!

Cloud Cuckoo Land, an unrealistically idealistic state where everything is perfect!

As expected there have been some distortions of the facts that are being featured in the media regarding the dispute. It seems BA tactics are to provide the Press with some grossly misleading facts and figures, which they know will be fed to all media outlets and misquoted throughout the coming weeks. We refer to the grossly over-stated average earnings in particular. We will shortly publish the correct figures.

Because of this misleading info, some of you will have to field some awkward questions from friends, associates and passengers over the next few days. When on board or on duty we advise saying “it’s best I don’t comment” but "out of uniform" here are a few facts for you to consider and use when replying.

Remember it is still within BA’s power to stop this strike and restart talks now. All they have to do is to agree to revoke the imposition and replace (or pledge to replace) the crew that have been taken off. BASSA will find the £40m that this imposition generated. The ball is in Willie Walsh’s court although, sadly we have already noted he has rejected this offer. Quite simply the strike goes on because of him.

The “12 days” decision was not taken lightly, but it would have been unfair to have held a series of 3 day strikes because that would have exposed the small percentage of crews taking action the first time around. BA are “suspend happy” at the moment and early reprisals could have had an impact on resolve, so it was important all members will be asked to take part. We are all in this together, not just crew working over a 3 day period.

The Xmas decision was also given serious, serious thought. Although this action will cause real heartache amongst the public we have to consider our future employment and terms and conditions as a priority. Ruined Christmases will eventually be forgotten, certainly by next Christmas, but your terms and conditions are something you will have with you for the rest of your working life. BA must be made to see sense and it was reluctantly felt only "audacious" action would have any effect.

Lots of crew are talking “anonymously” to the press. Some clearly are not genuine crew members, but most are. Remind the media who talk to you that your job is on the line should your identity be revealed. That shows just what sort of company we work for and malevolent atmosphere BA have created. A frightened, bullied workforce.

BA have confirmed that five crew have been suspended on gross misconduct charges for making PA apologies to passengers for slow service - again this shows BA in its true colours. Some of these people are senior, well-respected CSDs who have given the company 30 years of loyalty. The media need to understand just how ruthless BA are under Willie Walsh. Remember this is a man who said you get nowhere with negotiating.

There has been some questions asking why strike when there is a legal judgement pending in February. This legal decision is fine, but we are taking a moral stand here, legal or not, imposition is morally wrong. Breaking of agreements is morally wrong. This is an industrial issue and it is important it is countered industrially, as well as through the Courts.

Questions have also been asked about LGW colleagues already working to inferior terms and conditions. The reason for this situation is well known (especially at LGW) and has historic origins emanating in merging with other airlines. Whatever the rights or wrongs of the LGW agreement they were negotiated by the Unions and agreed with by the membership. Just because one group of people struggle to make ends meet and work their socks off doesn’t mean that is the future for all crew.

Walsh is literally trying to turn the national airline of this country into Ryanair. Not only do we think the crew regard this as a step too far, but we are pretty sure most passengers do too.

If you are contacted by BA in any shape or form regarding this strike - decline to discuss it. You have no obligation to give any assurances or information as to your intentions. Politely say you have no comment.

We know the last 24 hours have been emotionally tough and come as a bit of a jolt to some. But remember we were backed into this corner by BA turning their back on both the negotiations and our offered savings, and then imposing changes to your terms and conditions. That simply left us with no choice to take the path we have all chosen by an incredible ballot result.

At this stressful time, it’s worth repeating an old clich - “it is better to die on your feet than live on your knees”.

[spin_doctor]

Imposition?

So, BASSA ballot over imposed changes and get their mandate for a strike. Now they have announced a 12 day strike over Christmas, how many of their members are happy at having a 3.3% pay cut imposed by their own union?

Yes, that's right, if you strike for 12 days, it equates to a 3.3% pay cut in your annual salary, all thanks to the sterling efforts of your own reps.

At least I understand where all this talk of a 30-40% pay cut comes from now, it's how much you are going to lose from your pay in January.

Enjoy Christmas, but don't spend too much, will you.

[simmy]

Donkeys led by Mules or vice versa

When Mr Scargill led the miners to defeat he ensured that there was sufficient stockpiles of coal to see the country through! He also realised that the British people had enough worries of their own to be bothered with those of other people. I see that your union has chosen to act when there is a shortage of what you deal in.Passengers! Very clever. And the British people have enough worries of their own to be bothered with fairly well off white collar workers who do have what used to be a good job until .........they lost the respect of everyone I know!
It's sad about the holiday plans of so many being disrupted for the selfish interest of a few. Hearing the words of the FA who spoke on the news bulletin this morning sums up the mentality. He's prepared to work harder but not give up money! Listen Pal, there's not enough work.
Presiden Reagan sorted out Air Traffic Controllers and remember Sir Peter Abeles dealings with Ansett. But history is out of date.

[bealine]

Thank you very much Ottergirl for trhe first emotion free, sensible response I have seen on this topic.

As ground staff, we have had exactly the same responses - management not turning up fotr meetings, flat refusal to negotiate or listen to any alternative proposals etc. The only time any progress was made was when Willie Walsh entered the terminal and held a staff forum when it became crystal clear that he didn't know what had been discussed between unions and management - he shook hands on a deal to achieve 80% of our managers' "shopping list" and that is where our current trials of working harder with less have come from. If we can achieve the 80% of cost-savings our union reps have promised, then he has said that our Terms and Conditions will be left alone.

Maybe, just maybe, if WW could have been persuaded to hire Sandown Park for an open and candid Crew Forum, things could have turned out differently for you guys!

I really feel for you because I know from working with you over the years that you are all good people!

Once again, thank you for your open and honest reply to my question. The sad fact is that, with a less hard-nosed management style, the company's objectives may well have been achieved without all this trouble!

[ottergirl]

Did this not all start with BA stating that it needed 140m in savings and producing a list where it felt they could be made?

Yes but at no point would they say why they had decided that £140 million had to come from IFCE alone, or why as a percentage we should have to save more than other departments. If every dept had had to save the same percentage of their budget it would be easier to defend.
I accept that savings had to be made, I also accept that many other departments in Head Office/BA had already been decimated but I really feel that more progress would have been made if each front-line dept made proportionately the same amount of savings. There is nothing more guaranteed to upset people than a feeling of being treated unfairly.

I know the contributors on here are fond of saying that if only BASSA/Amicus had negotiated like BALPA none of this would have happened; the reality is that it was a different playing field from the start.

There will be no winner from this, there never is. I'm not sure UNITE even know what winning will look like; their aim is to show that every imposition will be resisted which is achievable. Is that worth losing 12 days pay for?

[newt]

Does anyone have an email address for Mr Mcluskey?

Would be nice to send him a seasonal message(of sorts)!!

[LD12986]

Ruined Christmases will eventually be forgotten, certainly by next Christmas

Oh no they won't.

[Trash_Hauler]

I am a union man but I think that BA cabin crew have been very poorly advised on this one and sold a dog and pony show. I am afraid that you all have committed commercial suicide!

[kirkukk]

Some Facts

It is oh so easy to demonize the Cabin Crew/Union. However those with some emotional intelligence would understand the real issues, so far unreported in the media.

(a) The levels of pay of BA CC are way off. CSD`s earn £50,000+ but they deserve every penny . (Pursers are on about £36000)

(b) CSD`s and Pursers ARE management. They dont need managing very much at all.

(c) Managers in Waterside hate the fact that they have no control over the crew when they are down route. They also have no background as crew themselves. Most are graduates who would not know a Boeing from an Airbus. Also, most managers have no interest in the welfare of the crew, only their route to promotion. Its a culture of self interest.

(d) During my 22 years as Flight Crew, I was proud of the CC, the way they carried out their roles, their dedication, professionalism and ability to deliver customer service at the highest level.

Do not make the classic error of comparing BA with the low cost Airlines. If you want to keep a top class national carrier, then dont upset the staff by confronting them all the time. Put yourself in the shoes of BA CC. Every time they go to work, I can guarantee some Manager will make their life difficult. Just like a bully.

If you faced evacuation on a flight, who would you entrust to get you out safely. BA CC or Low Cost Airline.

Pay peanuts, you get monkeys

[Desertia]

If you are contacted by BA in any shape or form regarding this strike - decline to discuss it. You have no obligation to give any assurances or information as to your intentions. Politely say you have no comment.

Ah the good old BASSA mantra. DON'T LISTEN TO ANYONE BUT US!

I hope to good the CC who are starting to realise what this union is about ignore these veiled threats and talk to the company about their options.

And as for this:

At this stressful time, it’s worth repeating an old clich� - “it is better to die on your feet than live on your knees”.

All we are talking about here is working a bit harder. The morons that glibly churn with these cliches seem to think CC are living in the West Bank. Please spare us, it's honestly pathetic to read. Haven't you insulted enough people with your tacky Iwo Jima rip-off?

[spinnaker]

4468

Cabin Service Director is now part of the cabin service routine, when they had not previously been. (Incidentally, he or she will typically earn circa £50-£60k if full time)

To get that amount of money with any other airline you would need to hold a pilot's licence, pay for all the training involved, work all the unsociable hours going, get promoted, pay for a type rating on a jet, get promoted again, and then you might get £60k per annum. Hmmm. I and a number of others on these forums must be thinking we went wrong with our career paths.

[Hotel Mode]

If you faced evacuation on a flight, who would you entrust to get you out safely. BA CC or Low Cost Airline.

The low cost airline. BA's cabin crew SEP and briefing standards are woeful compared to other UK airlines.

[Desertia]

I accept that savings had to be made, I also accept that many other departments in Head Office/BA had already been decimated but I really feel that more progress would have been made if each front-line dept made proportionately the same amount of savings. There is nothing more guaranteed to upset people than a feeling of being treated unfairly.

Ottergirl,

Notwithstanding any of the other history behind CC being relatively untouched when other departments have made concessions in recent years, I would like the answer to one or both of these two questions please, if it isn't too much to ask?

How do you know the savings requested are disproportionate?

And if your union told you, how would they know, when they would not look at the accounts, or even watch a presentation giving them the relevant information?