Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II

[Ormeside28]

Topcliffe September 1953. There were two Neptune Squadrond, 203 and 210. I was crewed up with a very experienced NCO Captain and we took part in the B of B fly past over Buck House. Soon after I was to be co pilot to another very experienced Coastal Captain, and took him up to Kinloss for him to convert and flew together for three months when I was sent with another " newcomer" to the Joint Anti Submarine School at Londonderry for a month. HMS Sea Eagle was a "stone frigate" on the main road out of Derry. Very comfortable. We had many lectures, took part in the School. In the school was HMS Rocker, a frigates bridge on hydraulic rams and we all took part as Navy. People sometimes got sick if the "sea" was too rough. The "submarine" was the size of a telephone box, on intercom to a WREN, Who, if she liked you, would be very helpful as she knew far more than we did. We flew on exercises with the schools tame frigates and submarines, and also went out in them to see what went on from the other side. After exercises we all went to the lecture hall where the captains and navigators plotted our courses and had the wash up in front of the school staff, the submarine and frigate captains and navigators. The crews were in the dress circle with the school staff and the Captain and Group Captain, and we captains of the aircraft would stand on the main floor, announce who we were, and then have to justify our actions. The Captain would say " Move to so and so" and Wrens in bell bottoms, white shirts and white plimsolls would dash nd move various models etc to the next position, stared at by a hundred eyes!! It was all good fun and we did this course every year, and operated our aircraft out of Ballykelly. Sometimes the ships would be from the Home Fleet, and so we were all against the school which was even more interesting. I was given a Captaincy in February 1954. Then our navex's began at Great Ormes Head if we were going south west!! We also went for a month each year to Malta to the AS School there to operate with the Mediterranean Fleet.Gradually we had more people coming from conversion in Kinloss, and so the two Topcliffe Squadrond were poached to form another Squadron 36.
Our operating area was supposed to be the North Sea but we used to take Mail out to the Weather Ships in th North Atlantic, India in the Bay Of Biscay, Juliet 400 miles west of Ireland at 20W, and Kilo in the Denmark Strait west of Iceland.. a popular task. We practiced interceptions in the North and Southwest Approaches, and shadowed our"friends" up the coast of Norway. Sometimes out of Orland near Trondheim. All very interesting, and in Coastal we captains were given a great deal of initiative. A very happy time.

[DHfan]

Supermarine fouled it up with the Attacker

I'm pretty sure I read the Navy wanted a tailwheel as they didn't know if tricycle undercarriages would be suitable for carrier operations. Presumably the jet blast wouldn't bother an armoured deck too much, unlike grass or tarmac.

No idea why as Capt. "Winkle" Brown had already landed both an Airacobra and a Vampire on deck with no problems.

Re earlier discussions mentioning the Hermes, Duxford has the last remaining fuselage on display. Unfortunately the rest of the airframe was scrapped.

[JW411]

harrym:

I got involved in a hilarious discussion this morning with my Skyways York guru with reference to who did what with the throttles on civilian Yorks. It was quickly established that the captain did his own throttles on take-off.

"So what happened when it was the co-pilot's take-off"?

"Ah! Well when it was the co-pilot's leg he would move over to the left seat".

"So what did the guy in the right seat do"?

"Well nothing, he was now in the left seat"!

Much hilarity.

"So, did the guy in the left seat also do his own throttles on landing"?

"No. Because the throttles were too stiff coming back and both hands might be needed on the control column".

"So, who did the throttles on landing"?

"The guy in the right seat"!

And here comes the punch line:

"What was the flight engineer doing while all this was going on"?

"We didn't carry flight engineers"!!!!!!!!!!!

That had us all lying on the floor laughing.

[Danny42C]

Ormeside28 (#10752),

Your: ".... We flew on exercises with the school's tame frigates and submarines, and also went out in them to see what went on from the other side ...."

In my p.220 #4383 & #4385, I give a full account of a Submarine Instructional Visit (aka "Jolly"), ca. 1959, to which we (Thorney Island ATC) were kindly invited by the True Blue of HMS Vernon (Portsmouth). Very interesting - but alas no WRNS aboard then. But having married one (ex) by then, perhaps shouldn't be greedy.

Safer on top of the water, for me !

Danny.

[Chugalug2]

Ormeside, your account of RAF maritime ops emphasises the close relationship you had with your principle customer, ie the Royal Navy, and perhaps implies a certain separation therefore from the rest of the RAF.

I'm not trying to be divisive here, but having never served in Coastal Command I can only draw on impressions gathered over the years. As a Captain for instance you sat in the LHS, but I understand that the a/c captain can/could (?) be not a pilot at all, but one of the rear crew. Is that right? The only time that ever applied to me (as an ex-Transport Command captain) was if the Nav Squadron Cdr was part of the crew. He would invariably forgo the privilege, content for a change to let someone else spell out what was to be done and what time to report for briefing, transport, etc.

In short, I wonder if the Coastal life was more akin to the RN, or were the differences with other RAF Commands merely determined by the role? To be fair, there were differences between many transport squadrons, mainly reflecting a boss's preferences. Some liked to crew up their aircrew for instance, others to roster crews as individuals so that SOPs were adhered to rather than let any crew familiarity breed contempt for them.

Given the parlous situation today, whereby the RN is denied this essential support from the air UFN, should it have had possession of land based Maritime Reconnaissance aircraft all along? Might it have taken greater care therefore to see that such aircraft were up to the mark, rather than ending up as recycled parts from a previous existance?

Sorry, contentious stuff I know, but the RAF seems to have made a right pig's ear of this essential component of Air Power, particularly for an island nation!

[harrym]

Thanks JW411, Skyways did seem to indulge in a rather unnecessary game of musical chairs – why couldn't the pilots remain in their usual positions, after all the York had a full set of dual controls? On the other hand I think it was probably good practice for the flying pilot not to handle the throttles on landing; not only was placing the bird on the deck better done as a two-handed job on the control yoke, but due to the throttles being roof mounted and thus moving in an upwards arc as they closed they were better handled for landing by someone giving his full attention to that task.

Mention of flight engineers reminds me they were not initially part of the Beverely crew, and anyway could not handle the throttles as each pilot had his own set – captain to his left hand, and co-pilot on his right. Which further leads me on to an account of an exciting few minutes in that likeable monster:-


The Transport Command Examining Unit was carrying out the first of its usual bi-annual visits to RAF Abingdon since conversion of no. 47 Squadron to the Beverley. So, having self-authorised to undertake a Categorisation Test Parts 1 & 2 on one of the squadron flight commanders, Sqdn Ldr 'Eddie' Sleeman, the bright, clear morning of 28th January 1957 found us taxiing towards RW18 for a simulated instrument take-off and departure. Additional to the normal crew we had on board a third pilot who, awaiting type conversion, had volunteered to earn his passage monitoring the engine oil temperatures. I was only too glad to have this boring but essential task taken off my hands for, what with watching Eddie's performance and taking notes thereon, setting throttles, props and other ancillaries according to his calls plus maintaining a general look-out I had more than enough to do; for the Beverley flight engineer lay some years in the future, while thanks to a (typically British) lack of forethought so also did the autopilot.

Engine and other checks completed we taxied into position on RW 18, halting a moment while Eddie donned the dreaded 'tin hat', a metal visor supposedly restricting the candidate's field of view to his flight instruments. This curious contrivance, bodged up in station workshops, was secured (?) to his cranium by means of a large spring clip that was either uncomfortably tight or so loose that it tended to fall off; it was also a flight safety hazard, causing an inevitable blind spot on the wearer's side of the aircraft. In later years the advent of flight simulators thankfully relegated this awful object a dark corner of aviation history.

Take-off and initial climb were normal and on passing 200ft agl I switched off the No 4 ICO, a legitimate training exercise at that time. I had previously briefed Eddie that practice engine failure(s) might occur at any time after attainment of a safe height and he coped well enough, correctly identifying the 'failed' engine and calling for the correct feathering and shut-down procedures to be carried out. However no sooner had I done this than our third pilot reported the no 3 oil temperature uncontrollable, the cooler flap wide open with the gauge needle hard against its stop; so, advising Eddie of my actions, I unfeathered no 4 and then killed 3 once 4 was restored to climb power.

By the time we had struggled to 800 ft or so it was painfully clear that not only were both port engines now showing similar signs of distress, so was the recently restarted no 4 while during this excitement the tower passed the glad tidings that all our engines were trailing black smoke, thus suddenly making thoughts of terra firma highly appealing. Time to revert to reality I thought, telling Eddie to remove his visor and continue ahead in level flight while I assessed the rapidly deteriorating situation. All oil cooler flaps were now wide open to no avail, and with all oil temperatures off the clock (and yes, the cylinder heads going the same way) it was obvious the engines would not last much longer - so, on the principle that any help was welcome I restarted no. 3 and advised Eddie to make an immediate 1800 turn, at the same time telling the tower we required an emergency landing on RW36.

So, levelling off at 1500ft we staggered back towards the airfield, meanwhile keeping a wary eye open for sites possibly suitable for what our forebears aptly termed a 'pancake' landing (presumably meaning 'spread thinly all about', our possible fate). Mercifully our engines kept going and, knowing that the Bev was closely related to the Hamilcar glider, I advised Eddie to keep some height in hand while making a semi-glide approach: which he did very well, using minimum power all the way down and turning off at the 26/08 intersection. Miraculously all four motors were still turning, but clanking and clattering in the most appalling fashion with the highest oil pressure indicating 5 psi – the idling minimum being 80!

All four power units were subsequently changed, filters and oilways clogged with shredded metal and vast amounts of carbon “burnt” off the engines' innards by the gross overheating. As always follows such incidents there were many willing to point the finger alleging that the oil cooler controls had been incorrectly operated, however similar but less serious incidents involving other aircraft soon afterwards forced the official mind and others to apply intelligence rather than innuendo. Plainly, either contaminated fuel or oil was the likely culprit and it was soon established that avtur had somehow got into the avgas storage, but in the longer term there seemed to be a conspiracy of silence on the whole affair and only much later did I get the true story.

This was years later in Changi Creek's Sundowner Bar, when a Rolls Royce (Bristol) engine rep gave me the sad tale. It seems a tanker driver delivering a load of jet fuel was mis-directed by the guardroom, emptying bis load into the avgas storage bunker to the subsequent great discomfiture of the Beverely fleet. The resultant witch's brew caused severe detonation followed by gross over heating, resulting in heavy carbon deposits (mainly from beneath the pistons) breaking up and choking oilways, filters etc. What little oil did find its way through was anyway grossly overheated, insufficient for proper lubrication and heat-degraded so that the engines were not far off total failure by the time we got XB264 back on the ground. We had indeed been very lucky not to have become headline news on the day rather than some months later, and it was fortunate the extra pilot had been on board – for without his undivided attention to the vital oil temperatures, the unfolding drama may well have gone un-noticed until too late.

As for the afore-mentioned reference to a later time, following a fatal accident near Abingdon soon afterwards the Sunday Express somehow got hold of our story and gave it full frontal treatment, serving it up as a general condemnation of the Bev's alleged lack of airworthiness in a typical piece of yellow press muck-raking. To my intense chagrin I was given the hero treatment while Eddie, who had done all the hard work, was not even mentioned!

In later years the questionable practice of actually shutting down engines during training flights (except for demonstrating engine re-start, and then only in level flight at a safe altitude), was rightly prohibited. For my part, from then on I never, ever, simulated loss of power at any stage of flight until a reasonable time had elapsed since the first take-off and all systems proven to be in proper working order.

[Geriaviator]

Harrym, your wonderful account and your remarkable recall had me holding my breath. Would it seem greedy to ask for more? Thank you ...

[Ormeside28]

Danny, Chugalug and Harry's, what a great crew Room! Coastal was run by joint Maritime Headquarters, usually, in my time, with Maritime HQ at Northwood with the C in C Coastal and a Vice Admiral. 19 Group at Mountbatten and 18 Group at Pitreavie, near Rosyth both commanded by a AVM and a Vice Admiral. We all got on well and I never remember any problems with joint operations as most of our operations, shadowing, Anti - sub etc were ordered by the Navy. I do not think, certainly in my time, that either side wanted things changed.
Back to Topcliffe. In August 1957 203 disbanded and those staying in Coastal went to 210 or 36. As my wife was pregnant my Group Captain, without my knowledge, arranged for us to be posted to 120 Squadron at Aldergrove, to be converted to Shackletons on the Squadron and the Station leaders, so by passing Kinloss. Very kind. After my conversion I was given a Captaincy and we settled in a hiring near Belfast.
Soon after settling in at Aldergrove the Vulcan crashed at London airport. It had been supported on its trip to Australia and New Zealand by a Shackleton from 120. So that crew arrived back with lots of questions asked. Then one of the Topcliffe Neptunes on the JASS course at Londonderry, crashed on the Mull of Kintyre. You will remember the Captain, Danny. Shortly after that, the Suez war started and our Shacks were used as troop carriers with 25 soldiers sitting on the floor! The ones I brought back were very disillusioned!
By this time those from the Neptune Squadrons were arriving in the Shackleton Squadrons having been through the Shack conversion and I was able to meet old friends again. We had a Meteorological Squadron of Hastings at Aldergrove which carried out weather trips out in the Atlantic.
Again our trips were similar to those that we had done from Topcliffe, but we went further north and west. Still carried on our weather ship mail drops. Operations in the Mediterranean, shadowing east and north. One notable trip was to the U.S. Naval bases. Stephenville, Norfolk, Guantanamo, Key West, Jacksonville and Brunswick. Followed by two weeks with the Canadians at Greenwood.
Towards the end of my tour with 120, a pal I/c postings at Command asked me if I would like to go to 205,converting from Sunderlands at Seletar to Shackletons at Changi. So it was up sticks again. Northern Ireland was beginning to suffer from terror. Coming back from Aldergrove late at night after flying, we would see road blocks in the road and hope that those manning it were the B Special Police and not the opposition. Sea Eagle closed down shortly after we left, the ships left Londonderry. (Lots of unemployed). The Navy left Eglinton, we left Ballykelly and Aldergrove. Sad! I will tell about 205 and Gan next.

[Danny42C]

Ormeside28 (#10579),

..."Soon after settling in at Aldergrove the Vulcan crashed at London airport. It had been supported on its trip to Australia and New Zealand"...

This will be the 1st October 1956. I pray in aid my p.207, #4137 (and two later Posts on this Thread; this is inordinately long, but four men died in the course of it, so I hope you [and the Moderator] will indulge me):

...Danny sees an Enemy in the Camp.

(This is taking me away from Sleap and my main thread, but that's my own fault, I started it, so I must tell the whole story)....D.

Of course the challenge was taken up; Providence put a hidden gremlin into the mix. After each "run", Tracker spins his little wheel down ready for the next customer. He would appear at the limit of range, say 7-8 miles. Director would have the aircraft down to 1500 ft at that point, at circuit speed, cockpit checks complete and three greens for landing (or whatever), ready for his handover to Talkdown at 6-7 miles.

But at 7 miles Glide Path is at 2100 ft, so Tracker's blip is so far down under that even at maximum depression he can't get his line onto the blip until, with the reducing range, the blip plods along (right to left) till it approaches the sloping GlidePath. * Then, as the range continues to close, he winds up steadily to keep his line exactly over the blip. That's all he has to do.

* ILS Glidepath needle (noted by one who has only ever "flown" them in the Link) behaves in a similar way.

Talkdown has one eye on his own blip, and the other on the Errormeter. When his blip first appears at limit of range, E/mtr needle will show at bottom stop. Then as range closes it rises steadily until at 50 ft below G/Path, Talkdown will say: "Do not acknowledge further instructions, you are five miles from touch down, commence descent at your normal rate of descent" - and the game's on, to end (you both hope) 2½ minutes later with the rubber on the runway and another Satisfied Customer.

Our Gremlin bides his time.

He is crafty beyond belief. Unerringly he goes for the weak point - the Tracker's cursor. (Surely not !) After each run, Tracker spins the little wheel down. Sometimes (repeatedly ?) it hits the stop with a bit of a bump. The pea bulb in the cursor may be jerked just a wee bit out of position. This may introduce a danger out of all proportion to its insignificant cause.

The light is, as it were, "contained" inside the cursor, but behaves in strange ways. With the pea bulb dead centre, the scribed line should get all the illumination, the top and bottom edges remain unlit and invisible (or at least faint) over the tube. But if it's out of position on Tracker's cursor? A case can arise (and cases had arisen at Sleap) in which the top or bottom edge of the Cursor was so much more brightly illuminated than the scribed line that it could easily be mistaken for it. It was not uncommon for two lines to appear at the same time; Tracker could interpret these as top edge over scribed, and so follow the lower, whereas what he was actually seeing was scribed over bottom, and he was following that.

Suppose this went unnoticed in the darkened Truck, what would be the effect ? Tracker would wait for his next blip as before. His false line is lower than the true one, so the blip would meet it sooner (by about half a mile, but that need not worry him, the aircraft is not always exactly at 1500 ft when it appears). Talkdown's E/mtr would bestir itself a bit early, no cause for alarm, the system should easily accommodate a bit of deviation if it is properly set-up.

Now the situation would develop with all the inevitability of a Greek tragedy. Everything would look and sound absolutely normal to any observer. The aircraft continues on the G/path - E/mtr says so. Talkdown is happy, Pilot is happy.
But he's on a false glide path - about 150 ft below the true one. If he continues on it, head down in cockpit on instruments until told to "Look ahead for the Runway" (as a good Pilot should be), he will touch down among the approach lights about a half-mile short of the threshold. And no one can work out why.

Ring any bells, anyone ?

From an armchair, it is easy to pick out "Why didn't"s. Why didn't Tracker see that his line no longer met ground at touchdown, but half a mile before, while Talkdown is saying "you're on the glidepath ?" (but Tracker's orders are to keep the line on the blip, nothing more, all the time - he is to mind his own business, and nobody else's).

Why didn't Talkdown query the aircraft height when it looked to be meeting G/path half a mile too soon ? (why should he, talk-down would last about 15 seconds longer, but that was all).

IMHO, it could all so easily have been avoided. That was the real tragedy.
More about that next time, to round off a story in which four good men had died.
(I must make it clear that my attribution of this cause to the accident in question is entirely subjective - I cannot prove it, but I firmly believe it, and it was a belief shared by all the Sleap instructional body at the time).

Goodnight once more, chaps. Danny42C.

For the want of a nail.....

'''''''''''''''''''''

Danny42C #4147

Danny has a Sad Story to tell.

The trouble was that this snag was so easy to fix. Off with the cursors onto the bench, out with a half-round file. File a "deckel-edge" along both sides of the cursors. Now you can't confuse it with the central line. The "mod" was so quick and easy that no one saw any need to put it up for official adoption.

The word quickly got round all the MPN-1s in the RAF and you just did it. After the Sleap GCA School, which first recognised the fault, the two MPN-1s I later worked (Strubby and Gatow) had this "mod" done before I got to them. But there was an MPN-1 which (AFAIK) hadn't. And I believe it wasn't a "Bendix", but was from another maker, but exactly to the same pattern.

This was the one at Heathrow. They had ILS, of course, and I would think that 99% of their traffic preferred this. Not that their GCA was idle, far from it. It was used (on the "belt and braces" principle) to monitor the ILS approaches. If the approaching aircraft were coming in too far adrift, they'd give Approach a shout. They'd done thousands of such "dry runs" over the years this way, but relatively few "real" ones. And their cursors had not been "modded".

I do not know why this was so. Their GCA was operated by the MCA, or the MoA or the BoT, or whatever. Either the RAF had not told them about this, or they had pigeonholed the advice (as being Not Invented Here ?).

Our gremlin waited.....One Day.

The day came on 1st October, 1956. The Vulcan which had been out to NZ and back on a flag-waving mission had behaved perfectly; our friends had been heartened and our foes dismayed. It was returning home now in a blaze of glory. The co-pilot was Air Marshal Sir Harry Broadhurst, newly appointed CinC of Bomber Command.

Mindful of the enormous cost of the new Vulcans to the hard-pressed taxpayer, he had recently issued a fiat: "There are to be no more flying accidents in Bomber Command". A poster was issued round his Stations to that effect (this I would not believe until I saw one).

"Ah, luckless speech and bootless boast
For which he paid full dear". (Cowper: John Gilpin's Ride)

The original plan had been that it should return without fuss to Lyneham. You never know, it might have disgraced itself, and be coming home under a cloud. But now all doubts were stilled, here was a fine photo opportuity for the Government to seize. It would come in to Heathrow and get the full red-carpet treatment, and be welcomed by the Great and the Good. All the freeworld's air attachés, their Press and cameramen were invited; this triumph of British aeronautical engineering would be displayed for all to see.

The Vulcan had ILS, of course, but this had to be re-tuned to each of the airfield's ILS it might need to use en route. This was then not a matter of merely punching a button or twiddling a knob. Separate discrete crystals had to be manually fitted at every stage. Of course, they had set out with a full kit of crystals for all the airfields on their itinerary, plus likely diversions. But it had never planned to use Heathrow: they didn't have the crystals for that, and for some reason (short of time ?) they couldn't get them now.

No problem, we'll use the GCA if the weather's bad. And it was, and they did.

Google will tell you what happened.

("Vulcan Crash Heathrow" will start you: there is interesting meat in all the links in the list, but I found it helpful to start with:

"VULCAN AIRCRAFT CRASH (REPORT) - Hansard 1803-2005").
and read in conjunction with my previous Post #4126 p.207, in particular:
("he will touch down among the approach lights about a half-mile short of the
threshold. And no one can work out why").

Post mortem and wrap-up and my comments (for what they're worth) next time,

Cheerio to all, Danny42C.

.....the horse was lost.

''''''''''''''''''''''''
12th Aug 2013, 17:35 #4161

Danny Sums Up and Delivers Judgment.

Before I start pontificating on this accident, and to avert accusations of the dreaded "sciolism", I must emphasise what I told Chugalug many moons ago, when this my tale was yet in its infancy. That is, I am not, and in no way hold myself out to be, any form of authority on this (or most other) subjects. It is nearly all hearsay and therefore not evidence.

I merely retell what I heard, or was told at the time (and the accuracy of my memory of even that cannot be guaranteed), or read in the newspapers. The only thing I am certain about is my description of the Truck interior, the CRT tubes and the Cursors (and the Funny Things which Happened on the Way to the Theatre). With that disclaimer firmly in place, I'll begin.

Reading the "Statement in the House", and the comment on the Dr.Touch report (did it ever see the light of day, or is it under some 50-year wrap ?), it seems to me that nobody had the problem by the throat. "Tracker" merits only one passing mention in the Parliamentary Report. There seems to have been some inconclusive references to what Talkdown said and when he said it (were there no tape recordings then, and was nobody monitoring his transmissions ? Was there no transcript ?).

Talkdown is totally reliant on his Tracker for Glidepath information. If there is anything wrong with that, go straight for the Tracker. I was told at Shawbury (and I think my Course lasted a week or two after the incident) that RAF Shawbury had tentatively offered the bottom-edge-of-cursor hypothesis to the CoI. But this was dismissed on the specious ground that the Tracker in question was highly experienced, having clocked up thousands of runs: it was inconceivable that such a person could commit so simple an error.

If this response from the CoI be true (and it rings true), then I can only say that it would not be the first time in the history of aviation, and it will not be the last, that such a thing has happened.

And now we have to take a look at the Heathrow MPN-1 (must have been that, as it had a Tracker) and how it was operated. From what I was told, it did almost all its "runs" in the ILS-tracking mode. Actual GCA approaches were few and far between, as naturally all the civil traffic inbound would go for the well-used and trusted ILS with which all its pilots were familiar. I would guess that the odd "full" GCA would only be on request from a RAF visitor, and even then only if ILS was not available for some reason (as was the case with our Vulcan).

It probably follows that they were well out of practice on the real thing. It made little difference to talkdown; he would be quite familiar with the ILS-following blips coming in at a slightly offset angle. But it was different for Tracker. If he fell into the bottom-cursor-edge trap (which, if the "deckle" had not been done, was more than likely), then the first time the E/Mtr reported "150 ft above glidepath", it would be passed via Approach to the incoming Captain, who would indignantly deny it, telling Approach that its ILS G/path must be "up the wall". The mechs would be hastily summoned to check the supposedly incorrect ILS - for this is very serious for Heathrow. Recriminations follow when it was found to be a false alarm.

When they got that sorted out, and the cursor error quickly discovered, Tracker would have his ears firmly pinned back. But in a "real" run there is no such "check and balance". We know what had been demonstrated in practice: now we had had the real thing.

All this begs a host of questions. Was there a radar alt on the panel ? If so, who was watching it ? Why were they in that pickle at all ? What about "Minimum Approach Heights" (or whatever we called them then ?). It is hard to avoid the conclusion that in the end it was a fatal case of get-home-at-all-costs-itis that was the proximate cause of the accident. The bottom-edge-of- cursor gremlin just tipped the balance, and sealed their fate. Without it, they might just have brought it off.

And I'm convinced that that's the way it was. And now it's nearly 57 years ago, Sir Harry is dead, S/Ldr Howard (the Captain) would be older than I, so he's almost certainly dead. Now the last crew of XA897 are together once more. R.I.P.

As for me: back to Shawbury and Sleap next time. Goodnight, all, Danny42C .

"Resume normal navigation"
........................................................THE END.

[Chugalug2]

harrym, a narrow squeak indeed! Bulk deliveries seem to be a constant weakness in many on site safety systems, witness the Camelford incident contaminating drinking water with 20 tonnes of Aluminium Sulphate in 1988. It also reminds me of the Ernest K Gann incident in Fate is the Hunter. One after the other of his engines quit immediately after take off, bar one. Turning back so that this engine is outboard of the turn, he somehow gets the aircraft back onto a cross-wind runway, shuts down, and signing off the aircraft snags the three failed engines. A technician approaches, not aware of the foregoing drama, and thinking him about to depart apologetically informs him that though they have fitted new design spark plugs to three of his engines they had insufficient for all four...

Ormeside, thanks for yet more of your nautical reminiscences. It seems from what you say that UK Maritime Air was in good hands in those early Post-War years. Would that it were still today!

Danny, Air Officers should simply be pax in large aircraft and never operating crew. If there were weaknesses at ground level then they were also airborne as well at Heathrow on that fateful day. Until they weren't of course...

[Fareastdriver]

That's the problem with 'Senior Officer's Familiarisation Courses'. On two occasions I have had to tell VSOs very firmly that I was the captain.

That's probably why I never made it past Flight Lieutenant but who wants to drive a desk.





Also I wouldn't have had all those good times in China.

[MPN11]

Not sure which is worst ... VSOs driving aircraft or SATCOs controlling ;)

[harrym]

Thank you Danny for that masterly analysis of what was quite likely a major contributory cause of the disaster, although I have always felt that the CinC's presence in the right hand seat was another. Others beside myself have already recorded here the tendency of sundry VSOs to usurp a captain's authority, and although I don't recall any evidence of such in the accident report I feel fairly certain this was a factor; after all, the VSO in question was aware there was a champagne reception awaiting their arrival, and he was known to be a rather authoritarian character.

Yes Geriaviator & others, there will be a few Beverley bits 'n pieces to follow shortly!


harrym

[Geriaviator]

Final memories of a five-year-old in RAF Poona, 1946

I'm beside myself with excitement, for Daddy says he will take me to the airfield tomorrow if I'm a good boy, we'll go early before the heat builds up. I duly waken early and race into my parents' bedroom where they are still asleep, and Daddy sounds cross when he tells me to go back to bed, it's only four o'clock. I go in later and Daddy is really cross, he says it's only five o'clock.

At last we finish breakfast and Daddy puts me on his crossbar for the short cycle ride to the airfield. To my delight a Vengeance stands on the dusty apron, an inviting set of steps leading up to the cockpit. How thoughtful, I think, Daddy must have told them I was coming. An airman in khaki overall seems amused when Daddy seats me on a concrete block with a steel ring on top, and a rope from the ring is tied around my waist. He tells the airman that I can disappear in a flash, he tells me the concrete is an aeroplane picket weight, and I'm delighted to be picketed down like an aeroplane.

To my amazement the airman turns out to be the pilot, for he seems quite ordinary and not the superhuman I expected. He gives me a wave as he climbs into the front and his passenger climbs into a big space at the back. I remark on the size of this space and point out that there is ample room for Daddy and I both, but Daddy replies DEFINITELY NOT. After a few minutes there is a loud whining sound and the propeller starts to turn. And turn. And turn.

Clearly the Vengeance has a problem. With anticipation I wait for the pilot to get down, give it a kick and call it “yoo ********* ****” as Sgt James does when his motorcycle won't start, but suddenly there's a hollow cough, then a series of clanking, banging and chuffing noises as puffs of smoke belch from a big pipe out the side, then a sheet of flame with black smoke and a vast cloud of blue smoke, all whipped away with the dust as the propeller turns faster and faster and the spluttering engine settles down to a steady rumble I can feel in my bones.

I watch spellbound as the huge aeroplane zig-zags towards the runway with the pilot hanging out either side to see where he is going as his superhuman X-ray powers may not be working too well today. He pauses for what seems an age and I begin to hope that he's decided to come back for me after all. But at last the Vengeance starts to roll forward, the engine thunder reaches us, the tail comes up, faster and faster he goes until the tubby shape heaves itself slowly into the shimmering copper of the Indian sky. This is the magic moment I decide that I shall learn to fly, and own my own aircraft one day.

Seventy years later: After Poona we went to Karachi where my goal of acquiring a Vengeance was upgraded to a Lancaster … It took another 32 years before I learned that you can't have everything and settled for a Tiger Moth. But to this day the glorious sound of big pistons sends shivers down my spine.

[Ormeside28]

Just a couple of funnies before leaving Aldergrove. One day I had to take the GC to Bovingdon for a conference and then go on a navex's before returning to Aldergrove. He sat in the right seat and off we went. We had just coasted out when there was a bad smell of petrol. The engineer checked the overload tank in the bomb bay and there was a bad leak. The GC said "what are you going to do" so I told him that I was returning to base. He said "you can't land, you are overweight" so I told him that I would put her down gently. All was well, and off we went in another aircraft. Again, on coasting out he asked for his brief case.No brief case!! So messages to and from Aldergrove to get his case on civil from Nutts Corner, then Belfast Airport. We landed at Bovingdon to let him off. No staff car, only a three toner! Then he asked for his bowler hat - underneath the parachutes on the rest bunk. Not his day.
The next one was when the Duke of Edinburgh was in Gibraltar and a 120 aircraft was sent from Aldergrove to fly him on an exercise with the Navy. This upset the resident Gib Squadron of course. The exercise went well and he was pleased.
The next trip the aircraft did, the wheels would not lower. The French airfield at Port Lyautey was "foamed" and the aircraft landed without harming the crew. A party went from Gibraltar, jacked it up, replaced the propellers and brought it back to Gib.
I was told to get a skeleton crew and was taken by Shack to Gibraltar to bring it back to Aldergrove. When I saw the poor old Shack the following morning I was told that it was cleared for one flight home, but the wheels were locked down, the bomb doors wired shut, no hydraulics, no flaps and " don't attempt to ditch " . I am not sure what happened after it was brought back. It was lucky that the Dukes trip was without incident. There!

[jolihokistix]

Forgive the barging in once more, but just some material for consideration if anyone gets bored and it's raining outside.


What can you work out concerning this photograph? Something I ran across. Nothing to do with anything, just a simple puzzle. Ignore as necessary. :ok:


Good luck gentlemen! (Answers supplied in due course. How about three days, if no-one gets any the wiser?)

[MPN11]

Someone isn't terribly good at depicting Spitfires?

Spitfire with KL code was 54 Sqn, Hurricane YB was 17, so perhaps that's the connection? Some Jaguar mates event?

Ah ... "Dalton was promoted to group captain on 1 July 1994,[11] and in 1997 took command of RAF Coltishall and the RAF's Jaguar force." So perhaps a retirement gift?

[jolihokistix]

Dalton and type/markings, yes, but otherwise no. One step forwards!


Quote: 'The painting is dedicated to all those who fought and died in that great battle, and is a tribute to the tenacity and courage of all those who came and served from all over the world at a time of England’s greatest need.

The Spitfire is a Mk1a, KL-T, R6079 of 54 Squadron and represents the aircraft flown by Colin Falkland Gray, a New Zealander.

The Hurricane is a Mk1 YB-J, N2359 of 17 Squadron and represents the aircraft flown by Harold Arthur Cooper "Birdy Bird” Wilson.'

[Danny42C]

Geri (#10765),

So you were firmly secured for your first encounter with the Vultee Vengeance ? (just as well, I'd think !) I've never read a better description of the histrionic display that a Double Cyclone could put on, cranking-up, if it were in the mood ! I must confess that often we very naughtily "prolonged the agony" by keeping the "Energise" on after the "Engage" in the hope that just one more half-crank would do the trick (instead of going back to Square 1, and letting the impeller wind up the starter flywheel properly again).

If you were in a line-up of six for a sortie, and everyone else had got their donks running, you could almost feel the exasperation of your five mates and the Flight leader seething in fury at the delay - for of course no one could move till all were ready to go.

But even the sainted Merlin was not beyond reproach: in the "Song of the Barracuda", the True Blue relates how:

"... And when you press the tit,
It belches flame and s**t
Right in your flipping eye ..."

but then these sailors were always coarse fellows ....

"...until the tubby shape heaves itself slowly into the shimmering copper of the Indian sky..."

You have the soul of a true poet, Sir ! (and "slowly" was dead right). As I've put it:

"And tho' you'd sooner flop than fly - I found it hard to say 'Good-bye' ".

Danny.

[Danny42C]

FED (#10762),

"That's probably why I never made it past Flight Lieutenant - but who wants to drive a desk ?"

Join the Club ! (inc Retd List, I have 67 yrs seniority in that "Best of All Ranks"), but am open to challenge !

Danny.

[MPN11]

Flt Lt was OK, but higher ranks paid more. :)

That said, around the time I recognised I was probably going no further, it appeared my pension as a gp capt would only be an extra £1/day. It didn't seem worth the extra effort and associated brown-nosing and back-stabbing :)

[Danny42C]

MPN11,

Advantage of the Forever JO was that it kept you "in with the youngsters" (especially the smaller and prettier ones), so you didn't feel your age too much !

[MPN11]

MPN11,

Advantage of the Forever JO was that it kept you "in with the youngsters" (especially the smaller and prettier ones), so you didn't feel your age too much !

You mean ... they felt they were safe with you? :hmm:

A good mate and I both had a marital interregnum as sqn ldrs in our early 30s ... It was exhausting :)

[Danny42C]

MPN11,

..."You mean ... they felt they were safe with you? http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/yeees.gif"...

Something like that (offering a shoulder to cry on) was always a good start. But beware - drying a woman's tears is one of the most dangerous things known to man !

On the subject of the Spitfire pics, no luck. Says "Error 1" or something like it. But thanks for the advice. Could somebody else print them on a Post, so I could see ? (or is Copyright a bar ?)

Danny.

[Chugalug2]

Danny, hope this helps.:-

http://www.pprune.org/attachments/military-aviation/2334d1496401422-gaining-r-f-pilots-brevet-ww-ii-photopuzzlecopy.jpg

[Tengah Type]

Danny 42C at #10771

I can not compete with 67 years, but can offer 45 years 1 month and 17 days continuous Regular and Reserve (working full time) service. Total full time commisioned service was 50 years 6 months and 17 days. I then left to get a proper job.:cool:

[jolihokistix]

Chugalug2 @ post# 10776, many thanks for the magnification.


The artist mentioned that he felt the fighter pilots coming to assist his brush as he painted.

[Chugalug2]

Geriaviator, how the years roll back for us all as we read your memories of a five year old, for we have all once worn that mantle. We have all inhabited that world of fun until all is brought to a sudden stop by older brothers or sisters or, worst of all, intervening grown ups. For most of us though it has long since sunk into the furthest reaches of recall, but you seem to have that same knack as Richmal Compton of inhabiting that world. Hers was via the ability to get there through observing her nephew, but you manage to do so via your memories of your own five year old self. A feat that so far out Danny's Danny (though I rather suspect that he could make that same temporal leap himself if he chose to!).

[jolihokistix]

Hear hear! It had the same strange effect on me.

[Danny42C]

Chugalug (#10775),

My cri de coeur (#10665) was intended for the "Spitfire Photos - John Dibbs" Thread. But I had a "Senior Moment" (not my first, and will not be the last !) and put it on here (Mea Culpa).

But thank you for the pic of the two Very Senior Officers in full fig - don't they look grand ! But "c'est magnifique - mais ce n'ést pas un Spitfire".

Will now repeat my plea in the proper place, and meanwhile stand in corner with Dunce's cap.

Your (#10779),

Oddly enough, my memories of that age (5) are limited to this: at my primary school my desk was next to that of one Eileen O'Hara. The grown-ups got the idea that we were sweethearts (God knows where they got that from), and went "Aaah" ....

In fact we detested each other. She was a rotten little snitch who went sobbing to Teacher every time I pulled her pigtail, and I got walloped ! And she accused me of pinching her Plasticene (when I'd only borrowed a bit, and would've let her have it back if asked nicely.

Women !

''''''''''''''''''''''
Tengah Type (#10777),

Surely you can add in your time on the Retired List, for after 50 years they must have given you a Pension ? With that stuck on, you may well have pipped me at the post !

Any other takers ?

Cheers, both. Danny.

[Danny42C]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Tomorrow (4th June) is the 75th Anniversary of the turning point of the WWII Pacific War. In the evening of that day, at Midway, US A-20 Douglas "Dauntless" dive bombers attacked the main Japanese carrier group.

In an unbelievably short time (I've heard 7½ minutes quoted), but certainly in 20 minutes, three of their four Fleet carriers were ablaze (the fourth, "Hiryu" was damaged, they got that next day (?) Wiki has the whole story (follow the timeline).

The revenge was doubly sweet, for this was the Group which had attacked Pearl Harbor six months before. The back of Japanese offensive air power in the Pacific was broken. There was no way back for Japan: the American yards could outbuild them three to one.

Now Japan could not win the Pacific War, the only question was how long it took them to lose it (it took 3 years - and would've been far longer, with enormous Allied casualities - but for the Bomb).

So the United States proudly celebrates "Midway" day, which is similar in importance to our "BoB" Day , nationally each year ?

Sadly not. Why not ? Dunno.

So please be upstanding with an (honorary) 2nd Lieut of the United States Army Air Corps, and drain a glass to the United States Navy - and Midway !

Danny42C.

♫..."Off we go - ino the Wide Blue Yonder"...♫

[megan]

Danny, I may receive a lynching from the Mods. The only other means would be for you to send me your private email address.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/05/19/10/345E471E00000578-0-image-m-82_1463651062655.jpg
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[megan]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/05/19/10/345E481600000578-0-image-m-64_1463649609562.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/05/19/10/345E734700000578-0-image-m-63_1463649525332.jpg
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http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/05/19/10/345E608700000578-0-image-m-69_1463650036238.jpg
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http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/05/19/10/345E6F2900000578-0-image-m-71_1463650111593.jpg
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[megan]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/05/19/10/345E6B9600000578-0-image-m-61_1463649429510.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/05/19/10/345E6EAD00000578-0-image-m-62_1463649506127.jpg

[jolihokistix]

Superb shots indeed!

Regarding photo on previous page, the people are:
Lord Trenchard, Air Chief Marshall Sir Stephen Dalton, Air Marshall Sir Robert Wright, and Colin Mason, the artist.
The last question is the event, a commemoration.

[Chugalug2]

Danny:-
thank you for the pic of the two Very Senior Officers in full fig - don't they look grand ! But "c'est magnifique - mais ce n'ést pas un Spitfire".

That you found the two VSOs (correct, definition of a VSO being 2* and above ;-) things of beauty is reward in itself Danny. I must say though that megan has more than stolen my thunder with his three fabulous Spitfire posts. He need not fear a lynching by the mods, for they too will be totally enraptured.

Bandwidth? Wots that then?

[jolihokistix]

Wot the man said! :ok:

[Danny42C]

megan,

Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you, Sir ! What a treasury of brilliant photographs of the nicest thing which ever took to the air. Not necessarily the fastest, or the highest climber, or the easiest thing to handle on the ground, but simply the nicest to fly IMHO.

Many moons ago, a Colonel Bayles (?), USAAC, who flew a PR Spitfire in WWII, said in these columns: "Everyone [every pilot] should have a chance to fly one". I could not agree more. Some aircraft you sat in, some you sat on, but a Spit you put on like an old glove. Admittedly, you didn't have much room - it was better to be not more than 5'10" with a BMI of not more than 21, and even then it was a struggle to carry a couple of three-tonner brake drums inside, as was once my unfortunate lot.

Absolutely viceless and forgiving, floated like a Tiger Moth on landing, no tendency to ground-loop, it showed what could be done when you had one lone genius as a designer instead of a committee. I feel privileged to have had the chance to fly a few hundred (non-op) hours in them.

Our kindly Moderators would not have the heart to take these down until everybody has had time to have a good look at them, now would you, Gentlemen ?

I believe you are "dawnunder"; it so happens that we have an old nursing pal of my Mary's from Adelaide visiting with us at the moment, and I have a niece from Melbourne in regular correspondence, enjoying the autumn there, so I have a tenuous connection with the Wide Brown Land, but sadly never seen the place myself. How are the various groups out there, who are trying to scrape bits together to make another complete Vengeance, getting on, btw ?

A grateful Danny.

[kookabat]

Magic photos. Just magic.

Danny,

I can't comment on the Vengeance at all, but if you wanted an Australian update, the past weekend saw a fairly significant gathering of Bomber Command types at the Australian War Memorial in Canberra. Several hundred people in all, including 38 veterans - the biggest group of those magnificent men than we've seen in this country in a long while, and likely the last time we'll ever have so many in one place. This was the 10th year this commemoration has been run, so I think an attempt was made to make it 'extra-special'. Veterans were even given travel assistance from the Australian Department of Veterans Affairs if they wanted it.

My favourite was this man, seen here with his daughter: Howard Hendrick DFC, a 460 Sqn pilot. He lives next to the Murray River and had a three-hour drive to Adelaide before he even flew to Canberra. He can talk your ear off, and he still flies a Jabiru once or twice a month, "just to keep up with it." What a character!

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee27/kookabat/2b4105e2-f91c-46ab-beba-5032baea7e4c_zpsnbm8jaas.jpg

Adam

[ancientaviator62]

Adam,
thank you for the wonderful picture. RESPECT.

[CoodaShooda]

Hi Danny
There was an ad in a recent magazine looking for a partner/investor to help bring two Vengeance projects to flyable condition. One to be sold.

Don't know if they've had any success.

[Danny42C]

Chugalug (#10787),

..."He need not fear a lynching by the mods"... Hope you're right !

It seems to me that the Griffon Spits, with their longer and more tapered noses, look more elegant than their snub-nosed Merlin cousins. Opinions ?

(if it's got a five blade prop, it's a Griffon engine). Their props go round "widdershins" (why ?), anti-clockwise as seen from the cockpit, so it tends to swing right when you open up: a trap for the unwary.

'''''''''''''
kookabat (#10790),

What a grand old chap is Howard ! Full of the joys of spring, and still flying. Has to be my age or thereabouts. Wish I were one-tenth as sparky ! (for that matter, Prince Philip is my age and still running around fine). ..."He can talk your ear off" ... - I think I could give him a run for his money !

His DFC would be in Bomber Command in UK, on Lancs. Disbanded after the war, 460 Squadron has been reformed in the RAAF in 2010. [Wiki]

Very few of that noble gathering would've even heard of a Vultee Vengeance, for our wars were 6,000 miles apart, and afterwards the VV has been totally forgotten.

As AA says, RESPECT - and then more RESPECT !

''''''''
Cooda Shooda (#10792)

..."There was an ad in a recent magazine looking for a partner/investor to help bring two Vengeance projects to flyable condition. One to be sold. Don't know if they've had any success".

("partner/investor" - forget it !)

If they end up with a Mk.III or Mk.IV plate, then watch it: the things will legally still be US property (Lend-Lease). Better find a Mk.I or Mk.II plate if they can (or make one) !
What I faintly remember about them is on Post here. Just an old pussycat to fly.

Cheers, all three, Danny.

[Fareastdriver]

Their props go round "widdershins" (why ?), anti-clockwise as seen from the cockpit, so it tends to swing right when you open up:

The Hawker Tempest was the same which would catch a few Spitfire pilots out. I remember from Pierre Closterman's book 'The Big Show' that on his conversion--sit in the cockpit; find out where all the knobs and tits are then fire it up and fly it--he took off, flew off to one side on the runway and over the remains of a hanger that had been demolished to prevent even more Tempests flying in to it.

[MPN11]

@ Danny42C ... except that ...
A similar contra-rotating propeller unit was later used on production Seafire 46 and 47s.

In the Bar at Manby, Plt Off MPN11 engaged with a lively discussion with Gp Capt Norman Hoad [who was doing a refresher Course, IIRC] on the subject of Spitfire propellor blades, and he retired to his room to produce a photo slide. On closer examination, he admitted "Dammit, you're right - have a souvenir!" and gave me the slide [now sadly lost]. :)

I think the Griffon Spits are simply gorgeous. That long nacelle adds grace to the overall profile ... and a lot more oomph!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine_Spitfire_(Griffon-powered_variants)

[Danny42C]

FED,

Wiki says that some of the first production Tempests were fitted with Griffons but later ones had the Sabre. Did those rotate "the wrong way", too, do you know ?

Never had anything to do with them, the only one I ever saw close to was at Hawarden in 1942. Flown by a very attractive, petite ATA girl in a tight-fitting white flying overall.

Put us in our place, it did, as we went back to our old Mk.I Spitfires on the OTU !

[Danny42C]

MPN11,

(our Posts crossed). Had very few hours on the XIV and XXII, it was a bit intimidating, but the people who got used to the things swore by them. If you fed the power in roughly at slow speed, the engine would try to twist the aircraft round the crankshaft !

[MPN11]

MPN11,

(our Posts crossed). Had very few hours on the XIV and XXII, it was a bit intimidating, but the people who got used to the things swore by them. If you fed the power in roughly at slow speed, the engine would try to twist the aircraft round the crankshaft !Yup, I can imagine. Too much engine, not enough airframe :(

Gorgeous machines, though. You were lucky to get to fly them, even if not in combat. Not that many people have that tick in the box ;)

[Danny42C]

MPN-11 (#10795),

"...On closer examination, he admitted "Dammit, you're right - have a souvenir!" and gave me the slide [now sadly lost]..."

I hope he wasn't looking through the slide "back to front" ? No, he wouldn't do a silly thing like that ......... would he ?

"...Plt Off MPN11 engaged with a lively discussion with Gp Capt Norman Hoad [who was doing a refresher Course, IIRC]..."

In 1955, SOs and a few VSOs attended a six month Course in the Empire Flying School at Manby, to bring them up to speed in the new, high speed Air Force. Freed from the responsibility of command, some of these old gentlemen happily reverted to being "one of the boys" and relived their early years. They flew their Canberras, Meteors and (later) a Hunter from Strubby. (At Manby they only flew Lincolns).

After night flying sessions at Strubby, most would down the odd noggin with us in our little Nissen Mess Bar. One one-star was a bit stand-offish and left early. "Old So-and-so's an ex-brat like me", confided a two-star, "but he doesn't like people to know about it !"

Danny.

[Chugalug2]

Drooling (come on, own up, I'm sure I'm not the only one!) over the Spitfire pictures posted by megan, I noticed that the two earth and dark green spits in formation have a different pattern to each other. This link talks of an A and a B pattern, but that they were merely mirror images of each other. That is certainly not the case with these two.

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/raf-a-and-b-pattern-spitfire-camo.33013/

Any offers? I seem to remember reading that after one colour was applied, standard pattern rubber mats were laid over in order to paint the second colour. This would lend itself to a set pattern, albeit the colours reversed for an A or B pattern.

[DHfan]

As it says in the link, the two patterns were opposites, not reversed colours.
Imagine a single (seriously unwieldy) mask for the whole aircraft and just flip it over.

[megan]

The Griffon Tempest Danny.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/5a/ea/95/5aea9573a68b2b938054bb311f95fc9f.jpg

Re prop rotation. In the late 1930's the Society of British Aircraft Constructors established standardization guidelines, including the direction of prop rotation, which was clockwise when viewed from the front.

[Chugalug2]

DH fan, thanks for explaining what mirror means, which had bypassed me entirely. As you say, it meant that the standard masks were reversed rather than the colours. Intriguingly it was left to the various factories to how to turn out equal numbers of the A and B patterns, most choosing the serial numbers (ending in even or odd numbers) to be the deciding factors. Even when they were told to switch to one pattern only, it was left to them to decide if it be the A or B (most chose A).

The whole point of shadow pattern camouflage was to meld into the surrounding landscape. As aircraft were parked in a greatly and increasingly dispersed manner, any problems of a repeat pattern in a group of such aircraft were therefore remote, which was presumably the reason that the need for two patterns was dropped.

[Fareastdriver]

I have posted this before so for those that have not read it:

British propellers went clockwise because the propeller was mounted on the front of the engine so clockwise is the normal rotation. Occasionally it was the other way because of a single stage prop-reduction gearbox. Americans attached the propeller to the drive end of the engine where in a car the clutch would be. This meant that the engine flew backwards with the propeller turning the other way.

On the whole British engines had their cylinders numbered from the front of the aeroplane's engine and American cylinders from the back of the airplane's motor.

There is also, of course, exceptions.

[MPN11]

Danny42C ... In 1955, SOs and a few VSOs attended a six month Course in the Empire Flying School at Manby, to bring them up to speed in the new, high speed Air Force. Freed from the responsibility of command, some of these old gentlemen happily reverted to being "one of the boys" and relived their early years. Equally valid in 1965! As a shiny new plt off, it came as something of a surprise to be on friendly terms with gp capt and wg cdr students who were festooned with medal ribbons! And they kindly refilled my glass more often than I reciprocated - some were very deliberate in avoiding me incurring significant expense.

[LowNSlow]

megan / Danny that is indeed the one and only Griffon engined Tempest III, all the rest were either Tempest V with the Napier Sabre engine or Tempest II with the Bristol Centaurus. All monsters compared to the Spit!!

Here's an interesting website dedicated to the mighty Tempest The Hawker Tempest Page (http://www.hawkertempest.se/)

[Geriaviator]

Kookabat, thank you for the item on the wonderful Howard Hendrick, sometime of 460 Sqn. I was very interested in this because on our return from India I spent 1948-1952 at Binbrook, 460 Sqn's wartime base. The squadron delivered one of the highest tonnages to the Axis powers but paid dearly with one of the highest casualty rates.

We were told of this history at Binbrook School, and to this day Binbrook Parish Council remembers the scores of young Australians who never returned. The squadron memorial stands at the junction opposite the school. The Marquis of Granby, their pub in the village a mile from the airfield, has long been a private dwelling but their signatures are preserved on the ceiling of what was once the bar.

One of the squadron Lancasters, a Mark I, serial W4783 AR-G, made 90 operational sorties between December 6 1942 and April 20 1944 (when it bombed Cologne) and was subsequently presented to the Australian War Museum.

The following information was prepared by Steve Larkins on the Australian Returned Services League website, to whom we are very grateful. Howard Hendrick was born on 2 October 1923, the son of a soldier settler , Tom Hendrick, and his English war bride who had taken a soldier-settler's fruit block in South Australia's Riverland. At the age of 18 he joined the RAAF with fighter pilot training at Victor Harbor, Parafield and Deniliquin. On posting to England he was retrained as a bomber pilot and posted to 460 Australian Sqn at Binbrook.

Howard completed 30 raids (a tour of ops) with the same crew and became a flying instructor until the end of the war. After further training he become a pilot with British Airways and flew scheduled routes between London and Johannesburg and Sydney. After four years with BA, Howard returned to Australia to take up a Soldier Settler block in Loxton, where he and his family worked and resided for more than 60 years.

Finally retiring aged 86, Howard (now 92) still enjoys a monthly Jabiru solo flight at his local aero club and has had his recollections recorded on ABC Radio, with these oral histories part of the South Australian State Library collection. This history does not seem to be online but if it is I have asked the State Library for permission to transcribe it for series publication in this thread.

[Danny42C]

There are No New Things under the Sun ? - Yes, there are, on this Prince of Threads ! Where to begin ?

'''''''''''
Chugalug (#10800),

The earth/green colour sceme was like that applied to our VVs in Burma. Excellent against a jungle background. We did some "Fighter Affiliation" exercises (without a Fighter - a single VV had to do). I sometimes flew the "Fighter", and quickly learned that I could not take my eyes off our "box-of-six" for a single moment - they'd vanish in the jungle canopy, and I'd to look really hard for a second or two to pick them up again. It was hard work and we didn't learn much.

You may recall that once, alone, I snuggled against a green jungle hillside in Assam to hide from a Lone Ranger (almost certainly an Oscar) who was dogging my footsteps. I'm sure he knew something was there, but he didn't spot me, got fed up and went away.

''''''''''''
megan (#10802),

Another lovely pic ! So that was the one and only Griffon Tempest. Nice, clean lines, should fly very well. But what a weird, "stepped" leading edge. What would be the (aerodynamic) advantage of that, do you suppose ?

Your: "Re prop rotation. In the late 1930's the Society of British Aircraft Constructors established standardization guidelines, including the direction of prop rotation, which was clockwise when viewed from the front".

..."from the front" (so anticlock from the cockpit ?) Surely not - everything I flew, British or US, tried to swing left on takeoff, except the Griffon Spit !

''''''''''''
FED (#10804),

..."Americans attached the propeller to the drive end of the engine where in a car the clutch would be. This meant that the engine flew backwards with the propeller turning the other way" ...

Not sure I'm with quite with you there. Only the Stearman and the TM I flew had the prop splined onto the shaft. Everything else had reduction gearing of some sort.

''''''''''''
MPN11 (#10805),

Nice to hear that your "Air Commodore Byplane-Ffixpitch" and his ilk treated you with such courtesy (as one of the "newbies"); in 1955 most of our CFIs and ATCs would be wearing a row of ribbons, and many "gongs" as well. I've said somewhere that "there wasn't a Control Tower in the land that couldn't field at least one full bomber crew (and sometimes two) at a pinch". These would naturally have far more in common with the old boys than the young gentlemen hot out of Cranwell.

'''''''''''''
LowNSlow (and plenty of top rudder on the corners ?) - (#10806),

Thanks for the link - will look it up when I have a spare moment.

'''''''''''''
Geriaviator (#10807),

..."their signatures are preserved on the ceiling of what was once the bar"...

(Sometimes footprints !) How did that happen, one asks oneself ?

..."and became a flying instructor until the end of the war"...

Probably on a Heavy Conversion Unit (many people thought that job far more frightening than their 'ops' over Germany).

...At the age of 18 he joined the RAAF with fighter pilot training at Victor Harbor, Parafield and Deniliquin. On posting to England he was retrained as a bomber pilot and posted to 460 Australian Sqn at Binbrook...

The fate of many who trained overseas, when they returned to UK. The Fighter Sqns were not losing many, and required few replacements. In Bomber Command, it was vastly different. Probably have been my "lot" had I not been shipped to India after Fighter OCU.

Do you think there is any chance of luring Howard on here - he'd be as wecome as the Flowers in Spring (or at least tell him about us) ? He's only a sprog at 92 when all's said and done. Plenty of mileage in him yet.

Cheers, Gentlemen, one and all,

Danny.

[DHfan]

Danny,

Re: the stepped leading edge on the Griffon Tempest - I'm pretty certain it's the radiators.

Prop rotation brings up another query of which way does the engine rotate?
By the late thirties most if not all higher powered aero engines were geared.
Generally, inline engines had spur reduction gearing which usually reversed rotation and radials had epicyclic gearing which didn't...

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

Danny re yr. 10808:

"Another lovely pic ! So that was the one and only Griffon Tempest. Nice, clean lines, should fly very well. But what a weird, "stepped" leading edge. What would be the (aerodynamic) advantage of that, do you suppose "?

I think that it is a wing mounted oil cooler (in the closed position) as the Napier engine versions all had a huge air intake up front under the engine which this Griffon prototype does not. I think that the (Bristol)? radial engined Tempests also utilised this feature

All the best
Ian BB

[DHfan]

There may be an oil cooler there too, but having now looked it up in Hawker Aircraft since 1920, they are the radiators.

[Fareastdriver]

As a guess, judging by the cooler in the leading edge of the Griffon Tempest's wing, they had overcome the drag effect of the bearded radiator on the Tempest V. Again from Pierre Closterman's book the description of belly landing a Tempest with a bearded radiator is described pretty graphically so it must have been an experience to remember.

Throwing a quick oar in I would have though that the radiators on the inner wing would have upset yaw control especially at high angles of attack. Combat in the 1940s was both hands on the stick and shove it around and to the Hell with aerodynamics. (Wot's that?)

The Centaurus Tempest used what was probably the most powerful piston engine ever produced in the UK. The Napier Sabre was a close second and to appreciate British aero engineering at it's peak one should go to Duxford and view the dissected Sabre engine.

[Fantome]

In one of the Wannabes forums bloke is asking for CPL NUGGETS to help in his training . My advice to him ran so -


Your own pre-take off brief (whenever single pilot ops) is crucial. The day you go into the take-off, fat, dumb and happy, is the day the fickle finger of fate is waiting to ensnare you. Many are the pilots who did not take the time to consider their actions in the event of engine failure, before having plenty of height in hand. (And a good many of those paid the ultimate price. And not infrequently, included have been those innocents who happened to be along for the ride. A King Air departing Melbourne for King Island last year, is a case in point . ) So tell yourself exactly what you will do if left with no power or in the case of a twin, down to one. The more you have rehearsed your actions beforehand, the better will be the outcome. Sounds obvious, but sometimes, for some pilots, the lesson is hard learned.

The time will come when you can be attentively relaxed and enjoy the benefits that ensure from becoming an increasingly experienced pilot. Two of the best books ever written on the subject of what wings can enable, in terms of an enlightenment, are by the late Harald Penrose, who, following his retirement after years as a test-pilot with the Westland Company at Yeovil, took to flying round southern England in his diminutive single-seat biplane (A Currie Wot). His refections on what this experience brought for him in later life are, in part, an airman's glorious denouement . The books are 'Airymouse' and 'Cloud Cuckooland'. All this is tangential to the thread starter's purpose, but nonetheless, the question remains, why fly? For the view, a lot of the time.

[Fareastdriver]

As a guess, judging by the cooler in the leading edge of the Griffon Tempest's wing, they had overcome the drag effect of the bearded radiator on the Tempest V. Again from Pierre Closterman's book the description of belly landing a Tempest with a bearded radiator is described pretty graphically so it must have been an experience to remember.

Throwing a quick oar in I would have thought that the radiators on the inner wing would have upset yaw control especially at high angles of attack. Combat in the 1940s was both hands on the stick and shove it around and to the Hell with aerodynamics. (Wot's that?)

The Centaurus Tempest used what was probably the most powerful piston engine ever produced in the UK. The Napier Sabre was a close second and to appreciate British aero engineering at it's peak one should go to Duxford and view the dissected Sabre engine.

[DHfan]

I'll have to refer to the book(s) to be certain but IIRC the Sabre-powered Typhoon, Tempest or both initially had a radiator under the centre-section and there were unexpected consequences, either regarding cooling or aerodynamically.
Moving it forwards to the familiar chin position cured the problem.

I showed a young mate with a mechanical bent the sectioned Sabre at Duxford a couple of years ago. It made his head hurt.
We're going again sometime this year. I'll show him the innards of a radial...

[kookabat]

Do you think there is any chance of luring Howard on here

Fair to middling, I'd say. He's certainly keen to chat. I have a postal address and will send him a letter later this week; I'll make sure to ask if he's online.

One of the squadron Lancasters, a Mark I, serial W4783 AR-G, made 90 operational sorties between December 6 1942 and April 20 1944 (when it bombed Cologne) and was subsequently presented to the Australian War Museum.

The War Memorial hosted the weekend, and I was one of about 300 people (38 veterans!) who enjoyed lunch in the shadows of its wings on Sunday:

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee27/kookabat/170620BCCDF20CBR-360_zpspqaf03ol.jpg

Now that's something you don't get to do every day!

Adam

[jolihokistix]

Wonderful shot there Adam.


*Just slipping in the final answer to the photograph a few pages back.


At the Battle of Britain 70th anniversary dinner on September 15th 2010 at the London Guildhall. Various things were auctioned off for RAFBF etc. Among the things I ended up with was a piston from an early Merlin engine, mounted on a stand with explanatory plaque from the Rolls Royce factory! My wife prefers that I keep it in the attic, but occasionally I bring it down to quietly admire.

[megan]

But what a weird, "stepped" leading edge. What would be the (aerodynamic) advantage of that, do you suppose?Aerodynamically I would suggest it's perhaps to take advantage of the stagnated airflow (high pressure) in front of the airfoil, Mosquito, certain models of the Fairey Firefly used a similar configuration. The F4U Corsair used the same position for engine supercharger intake, intercooler and oil cooler air.

Some light reading.

http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/reports/1942/naca-report-743.pdf

[Fantome]

Brilliant Adam . .. . what a shot . .. what a photograph (the couple in the foreground could not possibly be Second World War vets. ? ) Howard not long ago received The Order of Légion d'Honneur when the frogs finally formerly acknowledged in individual tributes the role of the allies and the Brits helping secure an end to their years of occupation.

[Danny42C]

Having no end of laptop trouble today, gremlin having a field day, but: "if you don't at first succeed, try, try again !"

What a drove of hares we've set running today ! First:

Let me thank all those who have put forward suggestions and explanations for the odd "step" in the Tempest leading edge. Seems it's not an aerodynamic feature at all, but rather a case of Making a Virtue out of Necessity, in that when you've got to find space for a coolant radiator, an intercooler, an air intake and an oil cooler, something's got to go up on the roofrack (in this case the leading edge wing roots).

''''''''''''''''''''
FED (#10812),

..."belly landing a Tempest with a bearded radiator is described pretty graphically, so it must have been an experience to remember"...

Read a story once about an original Typhoon in Malta. Chap had to belly-land it, they were doing fine until the Sabre broke out. Then it went bounding along beside him like a playful ton-weight dog. Looked like joining him in the cockpit, but fortunately bounced off into the middle distance. As you say, experiences to remember ! :*

'''''''''''''''

Fantome (#10813),

...So tell yourself exactly what you will do if left with no power or in the case of a twin, down to one. The more you have rehearsed your actions beforehand, the better will be the outcome...

I told much the same to the new young Controllers who came to us at Leeming from Shawbury from the late '60s onwards:

"When it's quiet, focus on some item of your equipment, and work out your fall-back position if it suddenly fails. Example:

A careless bogtrotter puts his pick through a cable. Your mains radio goes out. All right, go over to the standbys. The batteries are flat, what now ? :confused:

(a) if you have one of the old "truck" GCAs on the field, it'll be self- powered and has a radio set in it. Talkdown is always Approach qualified; tell your local traffic to look after itself (Dad and Grandad managed it with far busier circuits than yours, if they could do it, so can you). :ok:

(b) No truck radar ?; outside on the Flight Line you've a row of radios looking like JPs, your Duty Instructor in the room with you will roust out the QFIs and stoods from their crewroom; you've got a loud hailer, go out on the balcony and use it. One QFI in nearest JP in cockpit, a stod on the near wing to shout back at you (a VV on the line was "Cannanore Tower" for me).

There's always a way ! (but it helps to have thought about it first). :=

''''''''''''

FED (#10814) and DHfan (#10815),

Nice pic of a wonderful engine (but would've made my head hurt, too !) :{

''''''''''''
kookabat/Adam (#10816),

..."I'll make sure to ask if he's online"... If he isn't, give him some dual on your laptop. When he sees what he's missing, he'll be down at the IT shop like a Great Hairy Dog. Tell him to get a touchscreen laptop, it's worth the extra money and saves a lot of time. Warn his daughter to expect a lot of profanity that she's never heard before ! :eek:

..."you don't get to do every day!" .... No, you don't dine with a cookie" (hope it's a dummy) behind you, and the great corvine bulk of the Luckiest Lanc of All looming over you. Did they take it off 'ops' as there was no more room to paint any more "bomblets ?"

'''''''''''''
megan (#10818),

..."Some light reading"... (made my head hurt even more !) :{

'''''''''''''
Fantome (#10819),

..."the Brits helping secure an end to their years of occupation"...

One of the most moving newsreel clips after "VE Day", was that of Winston and Le Grand Charles walking together, unaccompanied, down the Champs Élysées in the spring sunshine (even though an exasperated Churchill, on one occasion in WWII, remarked that "the greatest cross he had to bear was the Cross of Lorraine !")

Danny.

[DHfan]

Re my #10815 - I was nearly right.

It was the Tornado (effectively a RR Vulture powered Typhoon - only one production and a few prototypes built) that had the centre-section radiator and it caused problems with compressibility. Moving it to the familiar chin position was the solution.
Initially the Sabre was even more problematical than the Vulture so I guess that by the time one was ready to test they went straight for a chin radiator.

Megan's #10818
The earlier marks of Firefly had chin radiators (one is on long-term restoration to flight at Duxford) but later ones had them on the wing leading edges.

Presumably there's an excellent reason but it's far beyond my knowledge and probably understanding.

Re Fareastdrivers comments on the Centaurus and Sabre. According to Wiki, and I'm pretty sure I've previously read it elsewhere, an experimental Sabre produced 5,500 hp on test. That's spectacular from 37 litres.

There's a sound file of a Sabre on Lownslow's link which I must listen to one day. I believe they revved to around 4,000 which is also impressive for such a large engine.

[Chugalug2]

I'd just like to thank all those who have explained a lot of the known unknowns (for me at least), be it camouflage schemes or radiator positions for in line engines. The aggressive looking radiator of the Typhoon was a really in your face aspect of an aircraft that could never be termed pretty and was in reality the beast that it appeared to be.

Was not the Sabre in reality two 12 cylinder engines with their twin crankshafts connected at the gearbox? Evidently it had a propensity to catch fire on startup if the priming was not just right (and "right" varied from engine to engine!), and as many fire extinguisher equipped ground crew as possible attended every start up. Thus you kept the canopy open and your straps undone until all 24 cylinders were firing in perfect harmony, ready to shut down and get out pronto if the ground crew indicated that might be a very good idea.

I also seem to remember that mass production of this state of the art power unit posed almost insuperable problems, in particular that of the sleeve valves. Bristol had both the technique and tooling to do so, and had to be ordered to release some of that capability to enable Napiers to ensure any production whatsoever. In the event it was the Bristol radials that reigned supreme, being the last in service UK military high powered piston engines before the ubiquitous jet turbines replaced them all.

[jolihokistix]

It's fascinating to hear the incredible amount of detail behind the scenes.

[Fareastdriver]

Refering to the leading edge of the Griffon Tempest wings has just jogged a memory. The Provost T!; the real one, not the kiddycar with a vacuum cleaner had strakes just behind the leading edge of the wings on the inboard section. This was to prevent tip stall. It did this by ensuring that the root of the wing stalled first so avoiding a horrendous wing drop if the tip stalled first.

The advent of the swept wing emphasised this because if the tip stalled the centre of lift moved forward and induced a rapid pitchup which made things worse. I remember a film with a F100 dancing along the runway on its afterburner before it ran out of ideas.

The effect was reduced by washout where the angle of incidence reduces along the wing, wing fences, think Mig 15, or notches to prevent outward flow which would do the same thing.

[Molemot]

Roland Beamont on the Tempest...
"Reaching Newchurch airfield at 480 mph I held "RB" down to 20 ft from the runway and then pulled her up to a 60 ° climb holding it as the speed dropped slowly off and the altimeter needle spun round the dial as if it were mad. At 7000 ft the speed was dropping below 180 mph and I rolled the Tempest lazily inverted, then allowed the nose to drop until the horizon, at first above my head, disappeared below (or rather above) the now inverted nose, the fields and woods steadied into the centre of the windscreen and then whirled around as I put the stick hard over and rolled around the vertical dive. Steadying again I pulled out over the tree tops at 500 mph, throttled back and pulled hard over towards the airfield in an over-the-vertical climbing turn, lowering the wheels and flaps in a roll as the speed dropped. What a magnificent aeroplane! They could have all their Spitfires and Mustangs!"
("My part of the sky", Roland Beamont)

[Danny42C]

DHfan (#10821),

...."Re Fareastdrivers comments on the Centaurus and Sabre. According to Wiki, and I'm pretty sure I've previously read it elsewhere, an experimental Sabre produced 5,500 hp on test. That's spectacular from 37 litres"...

Puts the Wright Double Cyclone (2600 cu in) in the shade: 1,600 hp from 42.6 litres. And the Merlin 266 produced the same 1600 from only 27 litres !

The payoff was legendary reliability, as it was so lightly stressed.

[Chugalug2]

Think you've got the nub of it there, Danny. Though not such a marked difference to the contrasting engines that you instance, the Hercules 216 engines (1800 bhp) of the Hastings were extremely reliable. I experienced only one shut down in anger while operating them, and that was due to the failure of an external oil pipe rather than of the engine itself. Its big brother though, the Centaurus, was rather less reliable. As fitted to the Beverley, the 173 variant (2850 bhp) always had a prodigious thirst for oil.

There proved to be a slight snag in Court Line's cunning plan when they obtained a Beverley and put it on the UK register, as it was then the only UK aircraft capable of carrying an RR RB211 internally, in order to enable a quick reaction engine change down route for its two L-1011 TriStars. The slight snag being that the Beverley's Centaurus engines proved to be more unreliable than the RB211s it was meant to shift!

[JW411]

You might be interested in the following. The year is 1950:

"Engine failures were still happening frequently. Strange as it might seem nowadays, the Hastings force at this time used re-cycled oil in its engines. An Oil-Cooler Flushing Unit was set up at Lyneham and the engine oil-coolers were fitted with back-pressure gauges. When the back-pressure reached a certain value, the cooler needed flushing. This was fine if the aircraft was at Lyneham but not quite so handy if it happened to be at Mauripur.

The oil-cooler shutters were also inefficient and "coring" was a common occurrence. This phenomenon was caused by the cooler getting too cold which allowed the oil in contact with the matrix to solidify. This drastically cut the flow of oil passing through the cooler, rather like a mechanical version of the narrowing of the human arteries. Consequently the temperature of the remaining oil flow escalated to dangerous levels. Coring was fairly common when the aircraft was forced to climb into cold air, such as was necessary to cross over the Massif in France, for example. Eventually, new oil-shutter seals were developed and this helped ease the problem enormously, but not before the Hastings had become known as the finest three-engined transport in the RAF!"

I find it quite mind-boggling that they even tried to use re-cycled oil.

[Fareastdriver]

20 ft from the runway and then pulled her up to a 60 ° climb holding it as the speed dropped slowly off and the altimeter needle spun round the dial as if it were mad. At 7000 ft the speed was dropping below 180 mph and I rolled the Tempest lazily inverted, then allowed the nose to drop until the horizon, at first above my head, disappeared below (or rather above) the now inverted nose, the fields and woods steadied into the centre of the windscreen and then whirled around as I put the stick hard over and rolled around the vertical dive. Steadying again I pulled out over the tree tops at 500 mph,

When on Vampires at Oakington I had a girlfriend that lived on the outskirts of Wem. A similar flight profile but I failed to notice a series of long sheds with hoppers on the end.

Apparently USAF paid for about 2,000 chickens because she persuaded the farmer that I had Stars on the Wings.

[Chugalug2]

JW411:-
I find it quite mind-boggling that they even tried to use re-cycled oil.
Quite agree. Ancient as I am even 1950 was before my RAF career, and the Hastings 1's were powered by Hercules 106 engines (1675 bhp) then, for what that's worth. I can't tell you what I've just come upstairs for, but the words coring, sludging, and Solomon Dampers will remain with me to the very end.

Our Flight Engineers (for whom we give thanks to the good Lord) were very much on top of such nasties as you describe and I do not remember any incident of either malady, so Mr Solomon's dampers went on turning, doing whatever it is that they did (damping?). :ok:

As far as I know all our POL's were fresh out of the tin, and such nasty dollar saving practices as recycling them for reuse were things very much of the past.

[Geriaviator]

My late father was on 202 Sqn Hastings maintenance 1954-1964 and said the Hercules reliability was much appreciated on 8-10 hour Atlantic met flights. All sleeve valve engines drank oil but Aldergrove's was certainly not recycled. Indeed, it was not unknown for a tin or two of delicious OMD-270 to find its way into our ancient Hillman Minx :rolleyes:

[JW411]

While I was digging out the bit about the Hastings oil problems, I came across another 1950 Hastings story in my book which I think shows absolutely magnificent flying by some very brave people:

"It had been decided to shut down the Singapore slip schedule for Christmas so Hastings TG574 was sent off to act as the "sweeper". It had already "swept-up" four complete slip crews and three passengers on its way from Singapore through Negombo, Karachi and Habbaniya when F/L Graham Tunnadine and crew (of 53 Sqn) climbed on board at Fayid on 20 December. They had hoped to make their next refuelling stop at Castel Benito but had to make an unscheduled stop at El Adem. They finally left El Adem at 1958 and set course for Castel Benito climbing up to 8,500 feet before setting cruise power. The co-pilot, F/L S L Bennett, went back to rest on the crew bunk since he was expected to fly the aircraft on to UK from Castel Benito. His place on the flight deck was taken by S/L W G James of 99 Squadron.

Some 42 minutes after take-off, at 3205N 2120E, there was a loud bang and a great deal of violent shuddering. A blade had come off of No.2 propeller and had sliced through the fuselage, severing all of the tail control rods. It had then struck F/L Bennett, who was resting on the bunk and had taken his right arm off. The three remaining blades on the No.2 propeller were now hopelessly out of balance so the entire engine was torn from its mountings and fell off, taking the port undercarriage and a large section of the wing leading edge with it.

Graham Tunnadine was desperately trying to keep the aircraft flying straight and level but had an almost impossible task on his hands. The flight engineer, Sgt P E Walker, had quickly established that there was no hope of repairing the severed tail control rods so the only primary flying controls left undamaged were the ailerons. First of all, the captain had to prevent the nose from getting too high otherwise the resulting stall would be impossible to recover from. He tried having the movable baggage and equipment in the cabin moved forward but there wasn't enough of it to have the desired effect. Next, he got the slip-crews to move fore and aft until the aircraft was flying level.

He was then able to keep the aircraft reasonably straight by using the ailerons and asymmetric thrust from the remaining three engines. Just how long the engines could put up with this sort of punishment was another question. The signaller, Sgt G J Bain, had sent out a Mayday call which was answered by Benina, the RAF airfield near Benghazi. Although they were not expecting any aircraft that night, they told Sgt Bain that they would quickly lay out a flare path and provide fire equipment and medical services, so it was decided to attempt a landing there.

S/L T C L Brown, a senior medical officer from Abingdon who was travelling as a passenger on TG574, had immediately gone forward to look after F/L Bennett. He tried to move him from the wrecked bunk area but found that he was trapped by wreckage. He made the brave decision to stay with the seriously injured co-pilot, fully realising that he would be in great danger when the Hastings crash-landed.

F/L Tunnadine had eased the aircraft down to 6,000 feet by the time they arrived overhead Benina and his plan was to do a belly-landing by putting power on at the last moment in the hope that this would be enough to raise the nose. He then descended to 1,000 feet by moving the slip-crews around again and positioned the aircraft on to final approach. Two slip-crew members stayed on their feet in order to make last-minute trim changes before diving into the nearest seats just before impact.

They almost made it to the airfield but TG574 struck gently rising ground just a few hundred yards short of the runway. The aircraft bounced for another 100 yards, the starboard wing struck the ground and the Hastings ended up on its back at 2155. Thanks to the use of rearward-facing passenger seats, everyone in the cabin survived with only minor injuries. It was a different story at the front of the aircraft. The nose was smashed in and F/L Tunnadine, S/L James and the navigator, F/S I A Johns, were dead. Sgt G J Bain was seriously injured and died on 24 December. Sgt Walker and the AQM, Sgt W A Slaughter were injured.

Sadly, F/L Bennett had died of his injuries and S/L Brown, who had bravely sat on the floor holding him in his arms, was seriously injured. He was happily to recover and was awarded the George Medal. The crew of TG574 were each awarded the King's Commendation for Valuable Service in the Air. Many at the time considered this to be miserly recognition for such a magnificent piece of flying".

When I found this story I was really quite moved. I was serving with 53 Sqn on the Belfast at the time. By something of a coincidence, one of the slip-crew navigators on TG574 (S/L I R L Jones) was also serving on the squadron so I was able to get a horse's mouth account of the whole event. He told me that thanks to his rearward facing seat, he was completely unhurt and, within 15 minutes of the crash, he was helping out by driving an ambulance!

I wonder how many of the youngsters nowadays could achieve what Tunnadine and his crew did?

[Danny42C]

JW411 and Chugalug,

I didn't think that anyone would be daft enough to run aero engines on recycled oil, but remember all too well that in the new-car famine years after the war our ancient 'bangers' had enormous appetites for the stuff.

As late as 1954, I'd bought a 1938 Vauxhall 12-6 which ran through a sump-full every 100 miles (and you couldn't see out of the back window for smoke). Any country garage would sell you "reclaimed" (ie filtered through a bit of newspaper) sump oil for a shilling a quart.

Imminent matrimony obliged me to have the engine fettled before the great day; it took us on honeymoon and faithfully served us for five more years before a posting to RAF(G), and a generous Bank manager, allowed us to realise our dream of the First New Car - the Peugeot 403 of which I have written in such glowing terms.

I look at road traffic now, and see few damaged cars, no rusty cars, no smoky cars, hardly any dirty cars - but some of the fun has gone out of the business (how long is it since you "got out and got under" ?)

I've been told that airlines use remould tyres (is that true ?), but I don't think they would descend to the desperate expedient of a "recut". (What was a "recut", Grandad ?) ... Well, when you'd worn all the pattern off your tyres so that they were smooth as a baby's bottom, road holding in the wet was problematical. Some unscrupulous character would cut you a new pattern in the tissue thin rubber, just stopping before the canvas showed. You could get a few hundred miles before the blow-out (if lucky).

The incredible thing is: your young damsel would happily nip into the passenger seat without a care in the world (and their mothers would let 'em !)

Keep Death off the Road ?

Danny.

[Fareastdriver]

and said the Hercules reliability was much appreciated on 8-10 hour Atlantic met flights

When I was at Aldergrove the Bismuth flights would normally land back with just three engines. My father got the AFC after he had recovered a Halifax to Shannon after losing two over the mid Atlantic.

I remember that Hastings story in the fifties. Whilst I was training in the Provost T1 I was always wary when an aircraft taxied past me as the propeller plane passed my position.

An ex Panam Constellation had a similar problem abeam Belize where No 3 threw a propeller blade and the engine rotated into the wheel bay. No 4 received the debris and caught fire. It eventually landed with No 4 on fire on just the starboard main and nosewheel.

The captain was in tears; he had done a lot of time in it with Panam.

I've been told that airlines use remould tyres

They do. I believe that, on condition they are good for four remoulds. There was a standing joke that when they passed that limit Air India would buy them and get three more remoulds out of them.

I don't think that that was true.

[JW411]

I can assure you that airlines do indeed use remould tyres. Mind you, they are done to a much higher standard than the remoulds I used to put on my old Riley Falcon. In 32 years of civilian flying I never had one let me down.

[harrym]

Yes Chugalug the Hercules/Hastings combination was eventually very reliable but only after a very troublesome time earlier in its life with the Herc 100 as fitted to the Mk 1, indeed the term “consumable payload” was allegedly invented to describe its very uncertain reliability during the 1949-50 period. Allegedly on at least one occasion a Hastings departing Lyneham loaded with three spare power units intended for stranded aircraft never reached Changi, having to use up its own payload to keep itself going!

JW411, I recall the Benina accident well having just been posted to 99 Sqdn following withdrawal of the York from service. Such recognition as the crew received was (in the opinion of many) indeed derisory and inexcusable, especially in the case of the captain who did a brilliant job - a posthumous AFC would have been more appropriate.

Reference has been made to the inordinate thirst of sleeve valve engines, often measured (especially for the Centaurus) in several gallons per hour. On the other hand, in my experience on both Hastings and Beverely they were pretty reliable – indeed I don't recall ever having an in-flight failure during my (admittedly) fairly limited time with the Bev, other of course than the episode recently described in #10757 – which was no fault of the engines themselves!

Mention of the Bev reminds me that perhaps another reminiscence is due, so read on where I attempt to describe in a light-hearted way some of its peculiarities as experienced by its users – both crew and pax:


Despite its many virtues even the Beverley's most fervent aficionados would hardly claim speed as one of them, however reports of trains overtaking it can possibly be discounted although an encounter with to-day's TGV or equivalent would be a different story. Short hauls were no hardship, but of necessity it had frequently to undertake long-range flights; that many of these derived from the RAF's absurd attempts to use it as a Hastings replacement, was of little consolation to those who had to endure hours of mind-numbing boredom as a result.

For the pilots tedium was initially alleviated by the need for hand-flying, no autopilot being fitted until fairly late in its life while at the same time lack of a flight engineer involved them in routine duties (i.e fuel system management, logging engine readings etc) normally carried out by this functionary - after all, was the bird not designed for short-range work (pity no-one told Upavon, though). As for other crew members, the navigation & radio empires were adept at keeping their members busy, often with less than essential tasks, while running up and down ladders with trays of refreshment kept the quartermaster fit & alert - hot climate operations in particular saw to that, but what of the wretched customers?

Sleep is of course the best way of passing air time but even the most noddy-inclined individual has certain limits in that field, so what other recreation was available? Passengers were normally carried in the boom compartment, which provided some relief from the noise but offered a very poor view out from the slightly upward-sloping windows; so, to see whatever was on offer from the main deck, it was first necessary to scramble awkwardly down into the hold, using the stringers as a step-ladder.

Primarily intended for freight, its generous 10' x 10' x 40' capacity nevertheless provided ample space for passengers where they would endure a decibel level way beyond any sensible limit – although carriage of motor vehicles (especially private cars carried as indulgence freight on homebound flights) could offer some escape from the interminable din. Slipping inside with a good book, one could read for hours in greater comfort than was possible in some contemporary airliners. Unfortunately however, any encounter with turbulence, always likely at the Bev's comparatively low operating altitude, necessitated a rapid evacuation if nausea were to be avoided; vehicle suspensions are designed to deal with surface irregularities, but merely exaggerate the effects of rough air. Keeping the pax warm was less of a problem than might be imagined, for the Bev was fitted with a number of combustion heaters providing hot air for both cabin and de-icing; burning avgas supplied from the aircraft's fuel system, they were at first regarded with some suspicion but in practice were reasonably reliable and to the best of my knowledge never caused any serious incident.

Should the hold be empty, athletically inclined persons could jog to & fro. Noticing a bicycle lashed to the cabin wall on one occasion, I rode it in a figure eight pattern for about five minutes (perhaps setting some kind of record, cycling over France at 150 mph?), though it was rumoured that someone once actually did the same on a motor bike! Then there was the supply aimer's position in the nose, giving a superb view of the passing scene through its clear glass panel. I spent some hours thus, and during one clear passage over the Massif Central was able to garner much useful data towards the planning of a forthcoming French holiday.

We all remember the Centaurus engine's voracious thirst for oil, so that during the longer "drags" it was usually necessary to hand-pump this commodity from the reserve tank to the engines - a task accomplished in a noisome hole in rear of the flight deck, where both temperature and decibel readings were normally off-scale. It was an exhausting chore, rendered worse by the impossibility of using oxygen in an oily environment. Visitors to the flight deck were encouraged, in the sly hope that they might be conned into becoming oil pumpers; sometimes the ruse was successful, but they were seldom "had" a second time. Why an electric pump could not have been provided (with the hand pump as a back-up) is another of those little Beverley mysteries - along with the lack of a galley, no autopilot etc etc.

No doubt human ingenuity dreamed up other ways of passing the hours, for there was always time to spare on a Beverley flight!

[Chugalug2]

JW411, thank you for telling the story of TG574, and of the terrible accident that befell it, the crew, and its passengers. As FED reminds us, any propeller driven aircraft (especially the multis with wing mounted engines) had the potential to fling large chunks of fast rotating metal into the fuselage, the wings, and adjacent engines. Even FED's beloved Piston Provosts held a similar threat to life and limb, as he says (funny you should have likened the JP engine to a vacuum cleaner, for it always reminded me of such when opening the bay access panel above it. There, in a space that would have easily accommodated an engine two or three times its size, was the tiny AS Viper that looked more like a Goblin cylinder). :)

Danny, absolutely agree about the Griffin Spits, it just made a beautiful classic aircraft into a beautiful and potent classical aircraft. By coincidence this month's Airfix wallpaper is PS852, a Mk19 PR Spit. It might just have to stay there into next month as well! :ok:

https://www.airfix.com/uk-en/downloads/view/index/cat/39/

[Geriaviator]

I have read that the Spitfire's major limitation was its c of g limitations which inter alia precluded extra fuel tankage. I have also read that great care must be taken on runup because if the tail begins to rise the limited prop clearance and high polar moment produces an inevitable strike no matter how quickly the throttle is closed.

A good friend and the man who introduced me to airways flying with a trip from Belfast to Bremen in my Arrow, Allan Deacon joined Shorts as a test pilot after a period with Rolls-Royce during which he flew the RR Spitfire XIV which I think is the one in these pictures, and borrowed it (yes, a Spitfire!) for our air display about 35 years ago.

At that time I was de facto airfield manager (which involved clearing up, driving digger and mower etc) and went ballistic when I spotted a line of slashes down our new runway surface. Who the ****** drove a tracked machine down the runway, I demanded. Turns out that Allan to his great mortification had tipped the Spitfire prop when he opened up on takeoff, each slash being the tip of its five-bladed prop.

Engineers came from RR and declared it fit to fly home for repairs. Poor Allan was drowned after baling out from a Tucano which broke up during test flight over the North Channel.

[DHfan]

Was not the Sabre in reality two 12 cylinder engines with their twin crankshafts connected at the gearbox?

Yes, and er... no. That would be far too simple.
The propeller drive was actually taken from the ends of the four camshafts, which was either barking mad or a stroke of genius.
Personally I think it was very clever. The camshafts run at half crank speed so there's the first part of the reduction gearing and then there are four well-spaced gears transferring power to the output gear rather than the usual one.
Unlike the Merlin where the prop runs at around half engine speed, the Sabre's more like a quarter in round numbers. I imagine a standard reduction gear design would have been massive.

The Bristol engines did last longest but Sabres were in service surprisingly late until 1955 in Tempest target tugs.

[Danny42C]

JW411 (#10832),

What a horrible story - and what a good job they did in the circumstances ! (why didn't that doc get an AFC - do you have to be aircrew ?) Failing that, they should've made it a G.C. Vaguely recalls that US story of a DC-10 where the tail turbine wheel broke off and severed all the tail control connections. He flew it to Salt Lake City (?) by juggling the two good engines and crash-landed it on the runway, many killed but a fair number survived (inc the pilots). At the next harvest some farmer found the turbine wheel in his corn.

FED (#834),

A JP at Leeming lined up for t/o and opened up. Viper turbine stripped, all the shrapnel sprayed out evenly and pretty well bisected the JP. No casualty.

One day a Percival Pembroke took off from Catterick (with CinC Maintenace (?) Command on board), climbing S. (in our direction). Loud Bang, a whole pot blew off and went through the cabin wall, across the cabin and out the far side. Did not hit anybody. They feathered and went straight on to land on Leeming's 16.


Chugalug (#10837),

Thanks for the link - fine pic of the Griffon Spit. As for JPs, spent five years looking at them out of the tower window, but never even bothered to look into the cockpit. I'd had my flying years, and they were good years, but now they were over.


Geri (#10838), and others,

Yes, you had to be careful on take-off with any Spit, and hold the nose up a bit to keep the prop tips off the ground. In consequence it floated off by itself like a TM.

My thanks to all who've confirmed that remoulds were in fact used.

Cheers all, Danny.

[Chugalug2]

DHfan, once again you add to my (our?) education. As you say, taking four drives off of the camshafts gave an immediate speed reduction as well as a more stable one. The sheer compactness of the Sabre can be seen from FED's pic of it. I must admit that I tend to characterise such cutaways as a "suitable arrangement of cogs and levers " so missed the design features that you point out.

It all rather reminds me of a "pilots watch" that my wife bought for me in Switzerland (no, not the 'B one!). Other than gently pointing out that the last place to buy a Swiss watch should be Switzerland, I also rather ungenerously queried what made a watch a pilots watch, other than that it should keep accurate time? When the interior arrangement of cogs and levers refused to operate further I took it to a watch repairer. He managed to get it working again but made the observation that, "this watch is too clever for its own good". Perhaps the same might be said of the Sabre?

[Fareastdriver]

Other than gently pointing out that the last place to buy a Swiss watch should be Switzerland

The place to buy one is China. My friendly Shekou watch shop sold me mine in 2004 for 200 yuan, at that time £17. I have worn it continuously only taking it off to shower or involved in heavy dirty work on the car or suchlike.

It still looks like new and loses about 6 secs/day.

It's No 25 on this website.

New Fashion Rolex watches Men / Women's watches AAAAAA for sale at cheap discount price, id 242179638- buy and sell online (http://www.c2coffer.com/buy/242179638/New-Fashion-Rolex-watches-Men--Womens-watches-AAAAAA.html)

[JW411]

Here are some (rather poor) photographs of TG574 at Benina.

[ian16th]

Great stories Chugalug. Bringing it all back.

In 1952-3, during Boy Entrants service at Yatesbury, we went to Lynham for 'air experience flights'. These flights were usually in Anson's, but on one such flight in a Hastings, we were given the story of the Benghazi accident when we queried the rear facing seats.

A few years later, I had the 'privilege' of pumping oil in the 'dog kennel' on Beverley's passing through Istres.

[Geriaviator]

Remember that the Typhoon and its Sabre engine were rushed into service without the prewar years of development invested in other machinery. Once sorted, both gave great service and for the ultimate Tempest-Sabre story, read The Big Show by Pierre Clostermann. For me the Sabre is the pinnacle of piston engine design. At war's end Flight magazine carried an ad from Napier announcing that the Sabre had been certified for civil operation at 4000bhp takeoff rating, compared with its Service rating of 2200bhp only three years previously. But by then it was clear that turbines were the way to go.

There is a British project to rebuild a Hawker Typhoon to flying condition, based on a WW2 airframe (RB396) and a Sabre engine that may be unused and as it came from the factory. More news at Hawker Typhoon RB396 » Restoration (http://hawkertyphoon.com/) In Florida, Kermit Weeks has two Tempests at his flight museum in Florida, one Centaurus, one Sabre which he hopes to fly one day. Info at the excellent The Hawker Tempest Page (http://www.hawkertempest.se/) which contains a fascinating chapter on the Sabre engine.

Now to Howard Hendrick, the ex-Lancaster 460 Sqn pilot still flying solo at the age of 92. The very helpful Chris Read from the South Australian State Library tells me: The oral history from Howard and Winifred Hendrick is quite extensive, over 5 hours, and there is a typed Transcript of 126 pages with Library customers can access in our Reading Room along with the interview. We're working our way through all the oral histories and your transcript will eventually be available online.

The far side of the world is a bit far to travel even for this thread, but in the meantime Kookabat tells me that he has Mr Hendrick's postal address and will contact him with a view to telling us his story.

[Danny42C]

Chugalug and FED (#10841 & #10842),

À propos Watches: of late my two ("old" watch (age 73) and "new" (age 43), prone to bad timekeeping and stopping. Daughter took both down to local old jeweller who'd done MOTs on them every few years, to sort out.

That left me watchless. "Buy a cheapo quartz to tide me over - tenner top whack"..... She turns up with a "C****n" (magnificent looking fake chronograph). Stitched leather strap, presentation case, the lot, from local cheap department store.

"You never got this for ten" ... "No, Dad - five !" ... "Don't believe you" ... Shows the bill, it was so. Thought: "Rubbish - but will do me for a few weeks". Set accurately. A week later, spot-on. Another week, spot-on ! Old two fixed, came back, stuffed in drawer and watched (no pun intended) the standby with growing amazement, still always "on the dot".

Reset to Z time March. Still keeps perfect time (I say the BBC set the pips by my watch).

The Age of Miracles is not yet over.

Danny.

[Danny42C]

Geri (#10846),

..."The far side of the world is a bit far to travel even for this thread"...

No it isn't ! - our cybercrewroom stretches round the globe !

..."but in the meantime Kookabat tells me that he has Mr Hendrick's postal address and will contact him with a view to telling us his story"...

Just show the young lad this Thread, and how to get on to it, and his story will come tumbling out without further prompting ! We haven't got so many "Gainers" here that we can afford to let another slip off the hook.

Danny.

[Fareastdriver]

I am always disappointed when I look in a high class jewellers window and see watches, of which the names were the pinnacle of the art of watchmaking, going clonk, clonk, clonk, as a quartz crystal vibrates.

Anybody can knock those up.

[JW411]

harrym:

"A posthumous AFC would have been more appropriate".

I could not agree more but I have a vague memory of being told that AFCs cannot be awarded posthumously. It was a long time ago but perhaps one of our medal experts could comment?

[Pom Pax]

When we excited pupils were issued with our watches at 2 ANS, everybody was exclaiming "I gotta Omega" "I gotta Longines". When I looked at mine oh dear never heard of them.......International Watch Co.??????????
We were told to check our watches rates. Well everybody else's watches with their fancy names seemed fair to average. Mine didn't seem to have a rate, it was always correct. Eventually I decided to do a long time test plus 6 seconds after 11 weeks. Then Mr Sandys did not want us any longer and he wanted his watch back.
Never seen or heard of IWC since but Google them and you'll be surprised.

[Danny42C]

Pom Pax (#10850),

Excerpt from my Page 150, #2993:

"...When I was on my feet again, the first priority was a new watch. This was not straightforward. They were very scarce, and to ensure that they went only to deserving characters, you had to get a Certificate of Authorisation from a magistrate to begin with. A modest "bung" to the Clerk helped things along, I had my "chitty", and I presented myself at the "West End Watch Company" which had been warmly recommended to me. I spotted a small "military" style "Bijou", very plain, in a massive stainless steel case. It was ticketed at Rs150. That was quite a lot - about five month's salary for an Indian doctor - or a week of my pay. It would be about £12 then, say £600 today.

Well, I thought, I'll start at Rs100 and see how far down we can get (the shop was a cut above a bazaar stall). To my surprise, the salesman wouldn't shift - it was take it or leave it. "What is the world coming to?" I thought, but finally had to capitulate. I had to have a watch - and he knew it. I shelled out the Rs150 with very bad grace. It was about three years before I found I was running around with a Longines on my wrist. It is there yet, and will be with me to the end, I trust..."

Cheers, Danny.

[Chugalug2]

Danny:-
To my surprise, the salesman wouldn't shift - it was take it or leave it.

I'm surprised that you weren't politely yet firmly shown to the door with directions to the bazaar, Danny! You weren't dealing with any old hobbledehoy, I'll have you know, but a proud employee of the Société des Montres West End SA of Geneva, who introduced the Incabloc anti shock system of Mr Braunschweig.

Of course, we do produce the alternative Sowar brand, that Sir may find, ahem, slightly more affordable? I believe Sir belongs to the Flying Cavalry? The brand is very popular within the cavalry, and was I believe highly recommended by Lawrence of Arabia...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_End_Watch_Co.

[Fareastdriver]

There is one in bits.

West End Watch Co. (http://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/westend.php)

[Danny42C]

Chugalug (#10852), (the link wouldn't play, probably me).

Yes, knowing what I know now (and thank you, FED (#10853) for the enthralling history of the firm), I hang my head in shame for having equated it with a Quetta bazaar stall. In my defence, I must draw attention to the common practice, in the days of the Raj, of using a well known London place name to add a touch of class to your scruffy shop or stall in the bazaar.

Thus you had: "The Park Lane Dental Emporium", complete with a large, hideous shop sign of a grinning row of snappers, these would be dental mechanics or (please God, no) Dentists.

It was only in recent years that Google told me that they are a perfectly respectable, long established firm, purveyors of high class watches to the "Carriage Trade" (ie all the Sahibs and Tuans etc. over the whole of SE Asia).

On only one point, I must qualify FED's story. My dial simply says: "West End Watch Co," and below, just "Bijou". And the screwed back is not decagonal but has a triangle of cut-outs round the circular rim. Attacking these (unskilfully) with Spencer Wells forceps, to have a look inside, I added a triangle of scratches to the serial no. and the firm's little "star" logo. But, having got in, found "Longines" on the movement - and swelled with pride !

Additionally, we wore washable white cotton one-piece straps; these got soaked in acid sweat; leaving little "tramlines" of the seam stiches eaten into the stainless steel.

Observe that the frugal RAF did not lavish mini Big Bens on "Drivers, Airframe" in those days, (tho' I think Bomber Command Navs got an issue). You'd got a clock in the cockpit (always the first thing to vanish after a crash), hadn't you ? Be happy ! You want your own watch ? Well, buy one.

À propos nothing in particular: a couple of blue-rinsed visitors is admiring the well-hung Achilles statue in Park Lane ...... "No, Marylou - Big Ben is a Clock ".

Danny.

[Danny42C]

A short time ago, on another Thread on another PPRuNe Forum (Which one I know not, God knoweth), I advanced the facetious suggestion that we might escape from our current political imbroglio if the CDS mounted a coup and took over the country. :ok:

As I have an uneasy suspicion that a lynch mob is assembling, :sad: could any kind soul please point me back to the Forum/Thread involved ? (Neither PPRuNe nor Google Search can help). Many Thanks (in anticipation).

Danny42C.

[Goe4]

Danny's Ears are burning

Is this what you were looking for:
Prune Social, Jetblast, UK politics - Hamster wheel
page 516, msg no. 10315, dated 10 June 2017 at 18.04.

I'm new here and not sure how to copy, etc.

I've been watching on the sidelines for quite a long time, but joined the club to say thank you for all your interesting comments, looking forward to more interesting reading!

[Chugalug2]

Danny's Ears are burning

Is this what you were looking for:
Prune Social, Jetblast, UK politics - Hamster wheel
page 516, msg no. 10315, dated 10 June 2017 at 18.04.

I'm new here and not sure how to copy, etc.

I've been watching on the sidelines for quite a long time, but joined the club to say thank you for all your interesting comments, looking forward to more interesting reading!

Well done Goe4, you beat me to it! Welcome to the only thread worthy of mention on this forum, and please stick around!

Danny, if when you have checked in you left click on your own ID you will see a menu that includes "Find more posts by Danny42C" if you click on that then all your recent posts will appear. Doing so finds the post that Goe4 quotes. Well, actually it doesn't, as it produces the wrong page, but that is simply a minor glitch that in no way negates the principle of the process as I have described. I hope that helps. :}

http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/411282-uk-politics-hamsterwheel-516.html

Oh, and if you search on Wiki for the West End Watch Co, you should find the page that my link went to.

[Danny42C]

Goe4 (#10856) and Chugalug (#10857),

Goe4,

As Chugalug says, Welcome aboard this Best of All Threads ! (on PPRuNe Military Forums anyway), where "Never is heard a Discouraging Word" - although we can't answer for the clouds. Thank you for the kind mention, I was sucked into this five years ago in exactly the same way and put my oar in on p.114, #2262 (Advt).

And thank you and Chugalug for the pointers back to my cheeky indescretion, will now have a butchers.

Danny.

EDIT: Didn't cause a ripple ! D.

[Blacksheep]

For a while I worked in the RAF Changi Instrument Calibration Laboratory where one of my duties was looking after aircrew watches. Most aircrew tried to obtain the more classy "name" brands but I can testify that none were any better than a bog-standard MOD issue Smiths.

http://militarywatchbuyer.com/wp-content/gallery/sidebargallery/smiths_british_army_issue_military_timepiece.jpg

[ancientaviator62]

When I retired from the RAF I duly handed over my Hamilton issue watch. The young lady storesperson asked if I had removed the battery. My reply that it was a wind up watch produced a look of puzzlement. I had not used it for years relying on my faithful Seiko Belmatic . Her attempt to find it and other items on the computer proved fruitless as I pointed out much of it was issued before the advent of such devices.
I am sure others can relate similar tales.

[Blacksheep]

For a while I worked in the RAF Changi Instrument Calibration Laboratory where one of my duties was looking after aircrew watches. Most aircrew tried to obtain the more classy "name" brands but I can testify that none were any better than a bog-standard MOD issue Smiths.

http://www.broadarrow.net/4276551317.jpg

[MPN11]

When I retired from the RAF I duly handed over my Hamilton issue watch. The young lady storesperson asked if I had removed the battery. My reply that it was a wind up watch produced a look of puzzlement. I had not used it for years relying on my faithful Seiko Belmatic . Her attempt to find it and other items on the computer proved fruitless as I pointed out much of it was issued before the advent of such devices.
I am sure others can relate similar tales.
I hope, in that confusion, you managed to keep it!!

[Danny42C]

AA (#10860),

If she couldn't find it on the Computer, then it can't exist, right ? So you've still got it !
Wizzo !

Danny.

EDIT: My £5 cheapo has kept perfect time since resetting for BST in March. Cannot give name, but the C****N has a strong flavour of Lemon. D.

[ricardian]

A Spitfire prang at the weekend (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Lq2oT9Bnzo)
Pilot slightly injured and so was one spectator (https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=196094)

[Goe4]

Danny and Chugalug

Thank you both for your warm words of welcome. At present no tales of interest that I can add to this tremendous thread but who knows maybe something will come. I am, in my spare time (what spare time?), translating an article into English about the defence of Cologne from early 1942 onwards (from the German aspect!). Maybe something there that I could post later.

[Warmtoast]

Danny
A short time ago, on another Thread on another PPRuNe Forum (Which one I know not, God knoweth), I advanced the facetious suggestion that we might escape from our current political imbroglio if the CDS mounted a coup and took over the country.

There were roumours that Harold Wilson was to be the subject of Military coup way back in 1974 - nothing seemed to come of it though - see here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Wilson_conspiracy_theories#Alleged_1974_military_coup _plot

[seafury45]

Goe4
A warm welcome from another onlooker. I would love to see a post about the defence of Cologne from the German viewpoint.

[Chugalug2]

Goe4, many years ago there was a possibility that Luftwaffe WWII aircrew veterans might post here, and were certainly given a warm invitation to do so. Alas, it all came to naught, but personally I would welcome any such input from the other side, including the article that you are translating. I doubt it will confirm anything other than what is generally accepted here, that war is hell and needs to be avoided if at all possible, or brought to an end as soon as possible if not.

So, yes please, when you are ready your contribution will be most welcome!

Warmtoast, I believe that "Uncle Dickie" was involved so it was doomed to failure from the start, particularly after the plotters were advised that, "It wouldn't be a very good idea, my dears" by the Queen Mother.

[Danny42C]

ricardian (#10864),

..."A Spitfire prang at the weekend
Pilot slightly injured and so was one spectator"...

My old-time kit couldn't get it, nowt on Military Aviation or Private Flying Forums (so far); what happened ?

Danny.

[Geordie_Expat]

Danny,


its on aviation history


http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/595770-spitfire-accident-france-11-06-17-a.html

[MPN11]

Continuing, if I may, the horological diversion ... I've just dug out a cheap watch to take on a beach holiday. My "Shake and Wind" Seiko cost me £6, IIRC, in Changi Village in 1967, and it's just started again at the first shake! Not bad going for 60 years old, and I don't think it's ever been serviced. Although I did once remove the back and tighten the screw that held the 'shaking weight', as it was rattling a bit.... and that was about 40-50 years ago, I suspect! I think I've had good value from the £6 :)

[Danny42C]

Goe4, sea fury45, Chugalug and Warmtoast (#10865 et seq),

Yes, please, I'm sure all our readership will be interested. If it is onerous, you could put a few blocks of the German text onto here: many of us have some knowledge of the language (gained either as unwilling guests of the Third Reich or later in RAFG) and could lend you a hand.

My own view is that the German race survived only by being unterkellert. Some years ago, I read this, and put it on here:
..."When USAAC General "Hap" Arnold (the instigator of the eponymous Scheme in which I learned to fly in '41-'42), toured the German cities in 1945, even he was shocked by what he saw. "One gets a feeling of horror," he wrote on seeing Cologne: "Nothing, nothing is left." (D.Tel. "Review" on 19.10.13.)"...
Warmtoast,

Thanks for the link, have not tried it yet, and I think the Q.M. had her finger on the button there ! - although the Lord Protector did have a good run until he died naturally (the Royalists had to dig him up to exact revenge on his corpse - Wiki).

Danny.

[Geriaviator]

There seems to be two threads on this accident, wider scope at http://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/595774-spitfire-f-azjs-crash-france-2.html#post9801117
(http://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/595774-spitfire-f-azjs-crash-france-2.html#post9801117)
I referred earlier (#10838 on p542) to the later Spitfire's tendency to pitch uncontrollably onto its nose, and have managed to find the reference, an excellent talk entitled Handling Qualities of WW2 Fighters and delivered to the RAE in 2004 by test pilot Dave Southwood. The relevant passages are quoted in my post #22 on the above thread.

[MPN11]

Thanks, Geriaviator ... I had guessed the problem lay somewhere in that area, but the almost immediate impact of it was rather startling in the videos.

[Danny42C]

Geri,

Found it ! (a minor miracle) Your chap Southwood knows his stuff ! From the earliest days, a full power run-up on the ground needed an erk or two grimly hanging on over the tail, as well as full back stick, to hold your kangaroo down.

One well known WAAF did not hear (or did not heed) the call to dismount: the pilot took off from where he was, got airborne, looked in the mirror - and got the shock of his life ! He got it down with both unharmed. ("trims a bit tail-heavy today, rigger ?")

The lady died only a year or so ago: it was in here. She had a tale to tell her grandchildren !

Heads-up ! (only 4 yrs late !) Came across a BBC2 programme (Which I don't ever remember seeing before) by Griff Rhys Jones: "Burma, My Father, and The Forgotten Army", available on iPlayer and (maybe) on YouTube overseas. A very fair summary of "my" war. Well worth a tune-in, IMHO.

If you do see it, do not mind the odd pics of Us helmets supposed to be our troops. The Jap twins shown (brief glance) are "Bettys", I reckon. A thing the size of a Wellington, it was used as the Naval torpedo bomber which sank the P.O.W. and the Repulse off Malaya.

Danny (what did that little devil you write about do next ?)

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

Danny - yr last

"From the earliest days, a full power run-up on the ground needed an erk or two grimly hanging on over the tail, as well as full back stick, to hold your kangaroo down"

My old Mum (will be 92 in August) a Wren Air Mech. (E) 747 Squadron RNAS 1944/5 was doing just such a run-up in a Seafire. She brought it back to idle for a little while before opening it up again without looking in the mirror to check that the two matelots who had been tasked with sitting on the tail were still in situ. Alas, they had unilaterally decided to go behind the hangar to have a fag, so my mum and her Seafire tipped over the chocks and an embarrassing splintering of prop and shock-mounting of Merlin ensued. She has never told me if she got the rap for this - or if the nicotine cravers took responsibility. C'est la guerre non?

Ian BB

[Danny42C]

Ian B-B (#10876),

I reckon you could "do" each of the two lads on whatever is the Naval Equivalent of Section 40 of the AFA. ("WOAS, acting in a manner prejudicial to Good Order and Naval Discipline" in that he did, improperly and without authority, vacate his place of duty without having been told to dismount" (is there anything you can't get a man on under Section 40 ?)

As for your dear old Mum, was there anything specific in the S.O.P. that required a mirror check ? If not, she's in the clear !

In a gusty, wet, early refresher (after 7 yrs) trip in a Mk.XVI, got caught out on a sharp t/way corner and ran onto muddy grass. Thing heaved it self up and I saw divots flying :eek:.... Flopped down again, engine still ticking-over.

Crestfallen, took it back to the line. Flight Commander gave me a roasting, then Chiefy (bless him) came in and said his lads had cleaned mud off tips and no damage done.

Mollified, Flight Commander told me to go out, not be such a bloody fool again, and fly my sortie as briefed.

But they were good days .......... :ok:

Danny.

[FantomZorbin]

Danny,
One well known WAAF did not hearI had the honour and pleasure of serving alongside the lady in the Royal Observer Corps in the early '60s. The lady was a lovely person, despite a marked stoop that necessitated the use of a walking stick, she had a very lively sense of humour and a wonderful glint in her eyes that twinkled and left a marked impression on this callow teenager! I also remember her wearing her beret 'Chiefy' fashion. http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/evil.gif

[FAR CU]

That unintended circuit with the Spit with poor gel clutching the fin . . think the Spit in question was AB910. The occasion mentioned here of her visit years later, seem to remember reading she was reunited with the very same aircraft. (But declined to take part in a re-enactment.)

[pettinger93]

During a tour of the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight hanger with my father ( a war veteran) we were told that one of the spits there was the actual aircraft that had inadvertently taken off with the WAAF attached to the tail. Also that the lady and the pilot of the aircraft had both been reunited with the aircraft. Quite astonishing that all 3 of them survived the war intact, and indeed for many years afterwards.

[ICM]

Back to watches in India - from February 1946 comes a scan of some advice on buying and looking after them, taken from a Squadron magazine published in Poona that month.

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc463/Old141Nav/Watches.jpeg

[JW411]

What a fascinating article that is Ian. I think it would be fair to say that the good old aircrew watch lost its attractiveness when Seiko came out with an affordable quartz watch in the 1970s. They were so accurate I can remember standing in the bar at Brize at 1300 with all of us looking at Mr Seiko's products as the BBC beeps went. The accuracy was amazing.

I bought my first one (a quartz 4004) in Masirah in 1975 (522753) and it still keeps almost perfect time.

Incidentally, I dropped it on the pool surrounds in Singapore and the day/date function stopped working. When I got to Hong Kong I took it down to the Seiko place in the Ocean Terminal. I explained to one of the young ladies what I needed fixing and she asked me to take a seat. About fifteen minutes later she re-appeared and I thought "now I'm going to get the estimate".

"How much?" said I.

"Nothing", said she, "And we have also given it a clean".

What service.

I don't think the Greenwich Observatory could ever match that.

[FantomZorbin]

Aah, the days of service! Parker (the pen people) used to have a similar ethos of customer service ... took broken pen to their emporium in The Aldwych, fixed 'while you wait' new nib and cleaned FOC.

[ian16th]

Nothing to say.

Just want to bump the forum up the page a little.

[Danny42C]

ian16th,

A neat idea, old chap, but i don't know how the Moderators might look upon it ! All through its long and varied history, this Prince of Threads has seen periods of furious activity interspersed with times in the doldrums, and has even, occasionally, fallen into the Slough of Despond that is Page 2.

But never fear, it has always "risen from the ashes" so far, and I'm confident thar it will do so again. Up to you, chaps (and chapesses) ! There's plenty of room round the old coke stove in our shabby cybercrewroom yet, and a welcome and battered chairs for newcomers.

Danny42C.

[Geriaviator]

Watches: About 1970 I invested in a very fine Omega Seamaster for navigation in my newly rebuilt Tiger Moth. The watch stopped after six months, was fixed by the supplier, failed again after 10 months and was again repaired.

About 14 months after purchase I was flying from Weston-super-Mare to Blackpool on a pretty nasty day, with oblique vis only a couple of miles as I approached the smoky Wirral. In those days there was a low-level corridor from Crewe to Wigan, enabling VFR crossing of the Manchester zone at max 1000ft. I was amazed to find my Tiger Moth was doing mach 1 as pinpoints popped up ahead of time. In fact my Omega was running at half speed and then stopped; fortunately I knew the route well and noticed before blundering into the Manchester zone.

The Omega agent was quite surprised that I had expected an accurate and reliable watch. Those days being before consumer legislation, I had to cough up another six weeks' wages to buy a Seiko, which keeps perfect time to this day although I can no longer get batteries for it.

This great thread: only 114 posts to go before we clock up No. 11000. Danny, please stand by.

Thanks: to Danny and those who sent PM following my Poona reminiscences, but sorry that's my lot. Still think it's strange that I have such clear memories from 70 years ago yet I can't remember why I came into this room. Oh yes … it was to write this post :O

[JW411]

I think I would like to tell you the story of a very brave Australian:

F.Sgt. Ronald Rashleigh Sillcock 400840 RAAF.

It is 1942 and he is serving as a Lockheed Hudson captain with 53 Sqn. the Americans are having huge problems with U-boats on the east coast of the USA and in the Caribbean. One of the major German goals is to sink ships taking bauxite from South America to the USA in order to make aluminium. The US President, Franklin D Roosevelt asked Churchill for help and so it was that 53 Squadron was sent across the Pond.

"On 26 June, news was received that No.53 was to proceed to the USA at the end of the month. Some 20 Hudsons and crews were to fly out to the US Naval Air Station at Quonset Point, Rhode Island. The main objectives were to familiarise the Americans with ASV radar and anti-submarine procedures and also to reinforce the rather inadequate resources currently facing the U-boat menace on the other side of the Atlantic".

Patrols were mounted from Quonset Point to the St Lawrence River to the north and New York harbour to the south but the Squadron fairly quickly moved south to Trinidad. Here it was that F.Sgt. Sillcock and his crew came into their own.

"F/S Sillcock (RAAF) and crew in AM797/W damaged Type IXC U 509, commanded by Kkapt Wolff to the east of Martinique on 16.08.42".

"F/S Sillcock (RAAF) in AM797/W found a U-boat in the process of surfacing at 0921N 5325W on 27 August. He attacked immediately with four DCs and caused such extensive and serious damage that Kkapt Beucke was forced to take Type IXC U 173 back to base (Lorient) for repairs".

"On 10 November, F/S R R Sillcock (RAAF) and crew in V9253/L found a U-boat on the surface at 1010N 5904W which they promptly attacked. She was U 505, a Type IXC commanded by Klt Peter Zschech. One of the depth charges struck the deck in the vicinity of the 37mm flak gun mounting and exploded prematurely, carrying away the gun and wrecking the outer plating of the conning tower. Debris was thrown up and some shrapnel struck one of the Hudson's fuel tanks (the Hudson had wet wings and did not have self-sealing rubber tanks) which exploded right in front of an astonished U boat crew. Fragments from the Hudson were later found in the wooden deck planking of the U-boat. F/S Sillcock, Sgt P G Nelson (RNZAF), Sgt R Miller, Sgt W Skinner and S1C H L Drew (USNR) were all killed. U 505 was eventually captured intact by the US Navy off West Africa. She was towed to America and is now on display at the Museum of Science in Chicago.

The 53 Squadron crew are remembered on the Ottawa Memorial.

[Danny42C]

JW411 (#10887),

Your: ...."It is 1942 .... and the Americans are having huge problems with U-boats on the east coast of the USA"...

Exacerbated by two factors: Coastal shipping was silhouetted against the lights of the coastal towns (was there a blackout, and when ?). And the "Radio Range" signals nr the E. Coast were being used by the U-boats for navigation: they were switched off and civil air transport disrupted for a while. [from memory]

Danny.

[ValMORNA]

Danny,


Ref your #10889 . . .


Various commercial radio stations along the US coast were also used by the submariners for triangulation and navigation purposes, I understand.

[pulse1]

Exacerbated by two factors:

Actually I think there was another significant factor. - the refusal of the Americans to take on board the Enigma intelligence provided by us ignorant Limeys and to use appropriate defensive measures such as convoys.

[ricardian]

Exacerbated by two factors: Coastal shipping was silhouetted against the lights of the coastal towns (was there a blackout, and when ?).
Danny.

August 1942.


When World War II was fought off North Carolina's beaches (http://www.learnnc.org/lp/editions/nchist-worldwar/5908)

Many people who lived along the coast during World War II remember having to turn off their house lights at night and having to put black tape over their car headlights, so that lights on shore would not help the Germans find their way in the darkness. Even so, the government did not order a general blackout until August 1942.

[oxenos]

the refusal of the Americans to take on board the Enigma intelligence provided by us ignorant Limeys and to use appropriate defensive measures such as convoys.
The refusal to accept British advice to institute a convoy system was largely due to Admiral King's dislike of the British

[Danny42C]

Fareastdriver,

I'm sure we would all welcome your comment on the new "Helicopter rescue feasibility" Thread.

Would think the intense heat would cause such a turbulent updraught as to make a chopper uncontrollable (never mind the smoke and flame), but then I know nowt about it.

Danny.

[Fareastdriver]

One poster made a comment about the requirement for helipads on the top of skyscrapers in Las Vegas which saved 1,000 people at the MGM Casino. If you are going to pull a lot of people off a roof with a helicopter(s) it has to be built for it. If it isn't then it's a case of winching them off one at a time because of TV and satellite aerials, etc.

I cannot imagine a couple of hundred of hot footed people waiting in an orderly line waiting to be picked up by winch. It would be chaos, with three or four hanging on to the one being lifted and it would only end in tragedy for the helicopter crew as well.

[Chugalug2]

With the swift engulfing of that building by a roaring inferno fanned by a strong wind from near bottom to the top 24th floor and on all four sides, I would imagine that any chance of a helicopter hovering above it for winching, let alone landing on (if it had such a helipad) would have been very slim to say the least.

There were though the usual media helicopters providing live feed at a safe distance for the rolling news channels. As the BBC told our boss when he pleaded that they withheld reporting of a Hercules crash at Fairford, in which all six crewmembers died late afternoon, until the late news so that next of kin could be informed first, "Sorry, I'm afraid not. The public have a right to know, you know". ITN, when similarly asked, obliged.

[ancientaviator62]

Chugalug2,
my wife heard about the crash of XV 180 before I got home from Fairford. As you can imagine she (and the others ) were in a bit of a state.
In GW1 one of the Beebs 'star' reporters virtually admitted to me that he would send a story back to the UK even if it ran the risk of compromising an operation.

[Danny42C]

FED (#10894),

..."with three or four hanging on to the one being lifted"...

Believe this was the case with the last helicopters to lift-off from the US Embassy in Saigon, with the Viet Cong at the gates.

Clearly it would have been impracticable in the Glenfell Tower case. But isn't megan's video clip (#8 on "Helicopter Rescue Feasibilty" a little jewel !)

I knew that the USAF had Sgt/Pilots in Vietnam on their Hueys (why should helicopters be regarded as a "poor relation" of fixed-wing in the matter of pilot status ?) But I didn't know they were in service as late as 1980. Very impressive, too. Are they still ?

Full marks to the presenter for being game enough to "have a go".

Chugalug and aa62, what a shameful light it casts on BBC ethics ! Reminiscent of the case in GW1, when a US radio announcer nearly blew Stormin' Norman's crafty plan to attack Saddam Hussein in Kuweit well to the West of what he expected. But in her case, it was artless, not intentional. I believe no harm was done, as Iraki Intelligence didn't "twig it".

Danny (once a Sgt/Pilot, and proud of it).

[Chugalug2]

Danny and aa62, if they stuck to their charter and broadcast a neutral non partisan editorial content then I would have been prepared to put this down to a one off by their local studios. They don't of course, and I for one would gladly see the BBC "privatised" and made to make its own way unaided by a mandatory tax on TV receiving devices on threat of criminal prosecution (and I have at last started enjoying a free dib, so no personal advantage here).

Oh, and add Channel Four to that list (also kept afloat with Licence Payers money!).

Sgt pilots were still around in my training days, Danny, though a fast disappearing breed. One of my own instructors was a Master Pilot, probably the best rank to attain in those days. As he explained to me (as an effective AC2) "When you finish your day job as a Commissioned Officer you will then start your other job (O i/c bog rolls, OO, SDO, etc). I'll be going back to the Mess now for a well deserved beer or two".

Despite this rather demoralising revelation of the real world of the RAF for an innocent young man, I must acknowledge he was right in that as he was in everything else. A good man that man!

[Danny42C]

Chugalug,

Ad Multos Annos ! Congratulations on joining the ranks of the free-loaders on the BBC Licence Payers ! As for the Corporation itself: Lord Reith, thou should'st be living at this hour. It would never have lost its sense of national responsibility in his time.

I thought I had put this on here. Seems I put it on "PPRuNe Social>Jet Blast" (Senior Moment) So here it is now:

From my niece in Melbourne:
..."I have just read in the paper that the victims of Grenfell House are to receive 5,500 pounds each and funerals paid. I hope they do not accept the offer. I have no legal training, but would have thought they have a massive class action case against the council. I hope someone tells them to get legal advice"...
Well said ! Amen to that !

Danny.

[Blacksheep]

would have thought they have a massive class action case against the council. The building was managed by a management board that consisted of 8 residents, 4 independents and 3 councillors (one of whom is now the local MP). Establishing that the Council itself was responsible may be rather difficult.

[Danny42C]

Blacksheep (#10900),

Good point ! (I hadn't thought of that). I'm no lawyer, but wouldn't the old adage: "...Qui fecit per alium fecit per se..." still apply ?

Have we a Solicitor in the House ?

Danny.

[Wander00]

BBC, Ethics, same sentence.. what nonsence

[MPN11]

Current Kindle reading is by a Daily Telegraph reporter who was embedded, almost accidentally, in the 'tip of the spear' in GW2. His introduction contains some fairly disparaging views on BBC reportage ;)

If the Kindle wasn't in our room, and I hadn't been suffering from Rum Punch, I coukd tell yu what the book was""

[FantomZorbin]

Wander00, totally agree. The standard of insensitive and crass reporting is appalling, those making the reports are witless when it comes to covering items where justice might be perverted and/or security operations compromised ... and the BBC "can't understand" why licence fee payers accuse it of political bias!!!
I suppose that's what comes of running an organisation occupied by a plethora with degrees in underwater Chinese basket weaving!

[olympus]

...an organisation occupied by a plethora with degrees in underwater Chinese basket weaving!

I believe that many of the new graduates/graduate trainees taken on by the BBC have degrees from Oxford or Cambridge. And therein lies the problem, with many educated beyond their intelligence.

A previous involvement of mine with the BBC flying group give me an insight into the employment practices of that organisation (the BBC not the flying group!)

[Blacksheep]

The BBC suffers from embedded organisational bias. Over time an organisation acquires an ethos and then hires only people who share the same ethos. As everyone in the organisation thinks the same way, they view anyone who thinks differently as being wrong and that they are guardians of the standard, Politically they're biased to the left, favour "diversity" and hire accordingly.

As another example, the armed forces have their own ethos, especially within the officer corps, and retain many quaint Georgian traditions of behaviour that are no longer shared by the population at large.

[Chugalug2]

The Georgians? What did the Georgians ever do for us?

[FantomZorbin]

... well at least the RAF doesn't have "traditions" - only habits!

[Danny42C]

Chugalug (#10908),

cf: BBC FOUR The First Georgians: The German Kings Who Made Britain.


Fantom Zorbin (#10909),

Mostly bad ones !

Cheers, both, Danny.

[Blacksheep]

...the RAF doesn't have "traditions"I think the Royal Air Force adopted the best of what we inherited from the Royal Navy and the Army out of which we were formed. Which is why the Royal Air Force is the junior but superior service.

[Puts on tin helmet and ducks below the parapet]

[Wander00]

Blacksheep - I'll second that

[ricardian]

The Good Old Days - and before Danny's time too (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwSiZ0disFQ)

[FantomZorbin]

Blacksheep - 'hutch up a bit' it's a bit of a squeeze in this dugout and while you're about it, would you please pass us the biscuits, the fire needs mendin'.

[MPN11]

The Good Old Days - and before Danny's time too (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwSiZ0disFQ)Sweet landing at the end of that. Are we sure it wasn't Danny? ;)

[Danny42C]

MPN11,

Danny's not sure it wasn't Danny ! (was there Time before me ? - can't remember).

[Danny42C]

OMG - Won't somebody wake this Thread from its enchanted sleep ?

[ICM]

OK then - how about a map of Poona, circa 1945/6, that recently turned up amongst the effects of a wartime WAAF. Does it stir any memories?

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc463/Old141Nav/Map%20of%20Poona%20copy.jpg

[Danny42C]

ICM (#10917),

Geriaviator's your man ! Roamed those streets as a five-year old. Shouldn't be long before we hear from him.

[lakomee]

DP198 Whisky at China Bay, of 205 Squadron. It is the same aircraft as the one on the Thames at Tower Bridge. Only it was with 110 Squadron at that time.
It was made in Windemere as Mark III in late 1944, but converted to a Mark V.

DP 198 W along with ML797 P flew the last mission on May 15th 1959, over Singapore. Making DP 198 the longest serving Sunderland!:cool:

Lakomee.

[Geriaviator]

Fascinated by Poona map, but cannot find our area. Away from home on hols, wifi not easy, and need to look up old stuff again. I remember crossing bridges short gharri ride from home with acrid smells from burning ghats on river banks so we can't have been far away. Thanks for posting this gem!

[MPN11]

After a quick look at the Google Earth thing, that map appears to have 060º at the top.

[jolihokistix]

Just popping by again with another off-the-wall and random tidbit. (Yes, I do drop in almost every day and have a quick gander at the new posts here!) In light of the German fighter pilot in a Spitfire 'at last' yesterday.


Interesting to see the plane, but also the recriminations still flying, down in the comments section.
https://japantoday.com/category/national/WWII-Zero-fighter-takes-to-the-skies-over-Japan#comments

[Blacksheep]

Can we send a P47 to shoot it down again? :suspect: :oh:

[Danny42C]

jolihokistix (#10922),

Thanks for the link. Have registered with "Japan Today" and put in a cmment on the "Zero" (Hasn't appeared yet !)

"The Art of Japanese Life" (BBC 4 on iPlayer), well worth a look).

[jolihokistix]

Just occasionally they come up with interesting articles like this. Has your comment still not appeared?
Yes, I have heard good things about that programme but iPlayer won't play here and I do not understand how to get a different VPN...

[Danny42C]

jolihokistix,

Please check PMs

Danny.

[jolihokistix]

Oh well, you can always reregister and try again, Danny.
(JT causes me constant little headaches.)
PS Thanks for the tip!

[Chugalug2]

A very authoritative comment follows the article:-


The Zero was a fine (aquatic) bird. But do not forget its much less well known terrestrial cousin:
The Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa "Oscar" was a single-engine land-based tactical fighter. Almost as good (and closely resembling) the "Zero", it was our enemy in Burma. Luckily the Japanese Army Command frittered it away on "hit and run" ground attacks, instead of using it as an interceptor, which was what it was. 100 mph faster, infinitely more agile and more heavily armed, it would have cut our Vultee Vengeance dive bombers to ribbons.
I believe that Japanese pilots had more "kills" with the "Oscar" than with any other type. But it was outshone by the more glamorous "Zero" (like Spitfire/Hurricane).

[Danny42C]

Think Flying Pay was introduced in the early '50s: I got 3/6 pd for as long as I was appointable for flying duties - whether or not in a flying post. On a ground tour, it was up to you to seek out whatever flying you could find (on types on which you were qualified, of course) for yourself.

On that basis, I was luckiest than most, as at Thornaby 608 (Aux) had Vampires and a MeteorT7, and there was a Station Harvard and a TM. I'd flown plenty of Vampire III and V on 20 Sqn, but even so 608's Boss stuck me in a Vampire and told me to do rollers until he told me to stop. He then went up the Tower and got the binoculars on me, called a halt after five circuits and grudgingly let me fly with the Squadron from then on. But the Meteor's flying hours were strictly limited to Squadron IF training and rating, so it was barred to me (I didn't mind, never liked the things anyway - all push and no lift).

This loose arrangement led to so many accidents that Air Ministry stopped it, no flying on ground tours, but you did a fortnight's refresher every year. At North (?) Cerney I tried to beg a Harvard to go up to Thornaby for the (mid) weekend to see girlfriend, but as I didn't have an IR on them, no go. Ah, well....

[MPN11]

Yes, Danny42C, I well remember the elderly (50+) ex-Aircrew ATCOs who were still getting Flying Pay as they were, technically, still employable on flying duties. And they never went near an aircraft!

No disrespect, I guess it was fair for the individuals, but it did cause a bit of irritation amongst the younger element who were really struggling on Ground Branch pay in the old days.

[Fareastdriver]

My father did his last tour in the Airbox in 1956/7. His department was primarily navigators and as far as I remember aircrew had to log a certain number of hours per annum to keep their flying pay. My father used to take an Anson from Northolt full of navigators to Jersey once a month and normally, despite their best efforts, he used to arrive there; and get back.

I, being a fully paid up member of the Air Training Corps, went on one and that was when I bought my first electric shaver; a Phillips two rotor job.

He would also borrow a Chipmunk and do some Instructional Continuation Training on me.

[Fareastdriver]

really struggling on Ground Branch pay

Some time in the early seventies when some form of income support came in one of our Air Traffic Pilot officers who was married with one child found out that he was entitled to Income Support.

It shook the hierarchy of the Air Force.

[Wander00]

FED - I remember that - you are right - shock waves in all directions

[MPN11]

Yes, I was perpetually skint as a fg off/flt lt with a spouse and 2 rugrats. Them were 'ard times.

[Blacksheep]

Yes, I was perpetually skint as a fg off/flt lt with a spouse and 2 rugrats. Them were 'ard times.You should have tried being an LAC. We had one at Brize who fed his family by riding around the line on his bicycle, scrounging left-overs from the inbound VC10 galleys.

[Danny42C]

Had a mate at Strubby in the '50s, perpetual Fg Off as he couldn't pass "B". When at last he was "deemed" to have passed, and got his Flt Lt; first thing Vin did was to tell his wife to go out and buy a pound of steak - in place of the egg 'n chips on which the family had had to live for so long !

Even as Flt Lt, we survived for years only by grace & favour of kindly Bank Managers (where have they all gone ?)

[Fareastdriver]

As far as I can remember the Officers Mess car park was fairly Spartan with a few old bangers in it.

The Sergeants Mess car park, however, had the latest that the BMC Vauxhall and Ford factories could produce.

[pzu]

From another forum, just seen this - may be of interest to a few on here

Dunkirk : The New Evidence | Channel 4 2 July 8pm | Bradford Zone (http://www.bradfordzone.co.uk/dunkirk-the-new-evidence-channel-4-2-july-8pm/)

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

[Danny42C]

pzu (#10938),

Watched it last night, thought of starting a Thread on Miliary Aviation with the following, but have forgottten how to do it. So here it is, for what it's worth:

Dunkirk: The New Evidence (Channel 4, 2/7/17 20:00 BST).

"As usual, it was all done by Spitfires: the poor old Hurricanes didn't get a mention - although they appeared on one or two of the "clips". Interesting to see that the "Stukas" all used the wing-over into the dive (I saw only one push-over, presumably too low for a wing-over). Much more comfortable the wing-over way, as you have the target in full view all the time (and no negative 'G').

Although the film showed relentless bombing of the beaches, the fact that 300,000 plus got away shows that it "wasn't as bad as all that" (but bad enough, in all conscience). Interesting that the commonly held supposition (that Hitler had ordered his armour to halt, although they could easily have pressed on and taken the lot "into the bag)" seems to be true. His thinking must've been: "The Englander are beaten to the wall; they must sue for peace now; why should I have to feed and house this lot in the meantime ? Let the Englander have that headache !"

The returning troops seem all minus their rifles: were they lost or was there a collection point in Dover ?

It was touch-and-go, the Chamberlain/Halifax Government might well have run up the white flag. Luckily, Churchill showed up - and the rest is history.

Danny42C.



"

[ian16th]

pzu (#10938),
The returning troops seem all minus their rifles: were they lost or was there a collection point in Dover ?

Danny42C. "

Wasn't this lack of small arms the reason for the invention of the cheap and easy to manufacture, but somewhat unreliable Sten gun?

[Chugalug2]

I'm afraid that I wasn't very impressed with this programme. The business of Army/RN resentment at the "absence" of the RAF at Dunkirk was dealt with in the Battle of Britain film, so this was hardly breaking new ground despite all the "astonishing things" mentioned.

BTW, I seem to remember in the film Lawrence Olivier (as Dowding) saying that he had lost 400 aircraft in and over France, whereas this programme spoke of 900 I think. Were the other 500 not from Fighter Command?

As to the discussion of Officer v NCO pay, the old F6663 was a constant reminder of such discrepancies. With a crew of many Master Aircrew, as well as Flt Sgts and Sgts, mostly married, as a single Flg Off aircraft captain I was often drawing less pay than my co-pilot, navigator, flight-engineer, signaller, or loadmaster. As always with the Service, you were paid for the rank, not the job, with or without marriage allowance.

[Wander00]

Many troops were also recovered via south Brittany, although sadly Lancastria was lost with the attendant loss of some 6,000 lives

[Blacksheep]

I wasn't impressed at the over emphasis on what was going on on the ground. Which squadrons were engaged? What aircraft were used? RNAS involvement? What were the loss rates? Total losses -men and machines? These are the matters that could and should have been addressed in a programme that claimed to explain where the RAF were at Dunkirk using newly released information. There was nothing I didn't know already from our lessons on RAF history at Halton back in the sixties.

[DHfan]

IIRC, they were ordered to leave all equipment including weapons behind. A lot, and I think the majority, were picked up from the beaches, after standing in water up to their chests for hours in some cases. Apart from the added weight and room in the small boats, I imagine keeping a rifle dry in those circumstances would be pretty well impossible.

[radar101]

There was nothing new - the recently declassified stuff from Kew may have enthused some researchers but all you have to do is read any sqn's F540 to see what they were doing.


I've got 56(F)'s and it showed them over the beaches or escorting bombers inland to bomb Luftwaffe bases most days.

[MPN11]

There was an [unjustified] bleat by some of the guys on the beaches that they never saw the RAF while they were being strafed/bombed. The facts stand up to scrutiny ... RAF fighter squadrons were all over the place, trying to minimise the impact the Luftwaffe was having. Unfortunately, the average stressed/bombed soldier will never be an accurate reporter of air activity at 20,000 ft.

[ICM]

I'd say that I was most surprised at hearing that some material from 1940 had only just been released at Kew, and I can't say I heard anything that would have justified such a delay over the standard 30 years. If the programme makers say that's what has happened, then so be it - but it all seems just a bit odd to me.

[DODGYOLDFART]

I must admit I did not see anything in this programme that I did not already know. However some researchers/historians claim that there is still some material held back which wont see the light of day until the hundredth anniversary in 2040. Some of this restricted information is believed to be about efforts by members of the Royal Family to bring the war to an end but I doubt there will be anything concerning operational matters of the RAF.

[Wander00]

MPN11 - nor 50 to 100 miles away

[Chugalug2]

DOF, you make a good point. If indeed we do have to wait until 2040 to be told what was really going on within those elevated circles, then I intend to be a b nuisance and stick around to find out. I'll only be 99! That's nothing these days is it Danny? :ok:

In particular I'd like to know who invited Rudolf Hess, who was he expecting to meet, and what was the proposal to be put to him?

[BEagle]

Chugalug 2, I strongly suspect that the documents will refer to the Duke of Windsor. A known racist, he and Wallis (about whom there is also much speculation) were bundled off to Bermuda during WW2 where there was less chance of them causing problems for Britain during the war.

Despite the RAF dress regulations mandating its use, to this day the royals refuse to use the Windsor knot when in RAF uniform and are, ipso facto, incorrectly dressed. Not that any SWO is likely to pick them up though!

Other possibilities are the documents pertaining to the interrogation of Rudolf Hess and 'Box24' of the Duke of Windsor's archives which may reveal pro-Nazi sympathies, although some consider that his contact with Hitler was merely to appease Nazi Germany in an attempt to prevent WW2 breaking out.

No doubt if Comrade Corbychev had his way and the British Socialist Republic was formed, the papers would be released rather sooner?

[MPN11]

MPN11 - nor 50 to 100 miles awayIndeed ... I thought of that, but was too lazy to edit my post! ;)

[Danny42C]

Chugalug, (#10950),

"I'll only be 99! That's nothing these days is it Danny? :ok:"
Do not tempt Providence ! := (AFAIK, no one on Thread here's managed 96 yet - so what are the odds of me making it in the next five months ?)

"In particular I'd like to know who invited Rudolf Hess, who was he expecting to meet, and what was the proposal to be put to him?"
So would we all - but I think it's one of those things we shall never know. Theories abound.

Danny.

[BernieC]

re Dunkirk RAF patrols:

Some basic info about tactics are found in Tee Emm for May 1941 at Tee Emm (http://www.aviationancestry.co.uk/tm/)

[Heathrow Harry]

"A lot, and I think the majority, were picked up from the beaches,"

A lot were but the majority were picked up by destroyers (39 were used) and minesweepers from piers and docks in the harbour area - you can move a lot more men far faster onto the ship that way

Wikipedia

With the docks in the harbour rendered unusable by German air attacks, senior naval officer Captain (later Admiral) William Tennant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tennant_%28Royal_Navy_officer%29) initially ordered men to be evacuated from the beaches. When this proved too slow, he re-routed the evacuees to two long stone and concrete breakwaters, called the East and West Mole, as well as the beaches. Almost 200,000 troops embarked on ships from the East Mole (which stretched nearly a mile out to sea) over the next week.

On 28 May, 17,804 soldiers arrived at British ports. On 29 May, 47,310 British troops were rescued. The next day, an additional 53,823 men were embarked, including the first French soldiers. Lord Gort and 68,014 men were evacuated on 31 May, leaving Major-General Harold Alexander (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Alexander) in command of the rearguard.

A further 64,429 Allied soldiers departed on 1 June, before the increasing air attacks prevented further daylight evacuation. The British rearguard of 4,000 men left on the night of 2–3 June. An additional 75,000 French troops were retrieved over the nights of 2–4 June, before the operation finally ended.

The remainder of the rearguard—40,000 French troops—surrendered on 4 June

[blind pew]

DOF it's the same with the files on the French resistance. My father was a translator for de Gaulle whom he detested as he similarly did with Churchill. Told me that the majority of the resistance were "communist" and were betrayed by them to keep France fascist.
Met a French researcher a couple of years ago who had visited Kew and was told without the death certificates the files were frozen for 100 years....didn't know the gestapo or the camps issued them!

[Warmtoast]

blind pew

Met a French researcher a couple of years ago who had visited Kew and was told without the death certificates the files were frozen for 100 years....didn't know the gestapo or the camps issued them!
Not quite. following from National Archives website.


7. Special Operations Executive (SOE)
7.1 Background
You will find useful information about the arrangement of the records and the history of the SOE in our catalogue (you will need to scroll down the page to see all sections).
Any personnel records that have survived are closed to the public until 2030 to protect the individuals concerned.
If you are interested in such a file and can demonstrate that the person it relates to is deceased, then you can submit a Freedom of Information request. If it relates to you personally you can make a request under Data Protection legislation using the leaflet on our website

[ricardian]

Fascinated by Poona map, but cannot find our area. Away from home on hols, wifi not easy, and need to look up old stuff again. I remember crossing bridges short gharri ride from home with acrid smells from burning ghats on river banks so we can't have been far away. Thanks for posting this gem!

Found this 1924 map of Poona/Pune (http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-british-india-sketch-maps-of-the-cities-of-poona-pune-kirkee-1924-103745396.html)

[blind pew]

Warmtoast...just reiterating what he told me but I've been trying for several years to get a file released on the attempted bombing of a Trident out of Belfast that diverted to Manchester.
The file had been closed for forty years. After several months I traced its current whereabouts and after being persistent I was accidentally sent an internal communication as to how I might get it released. A few hours late I was sent another mail which told me to destroy the previous email which I did.
Kew apparently hasn't got it but it was held by a department associated with the department of transport.
The forty year period has passed and last year I applied again to be told that they haven't held the file. So I appealed and recounted the history of our communications. That didn't work so I made a complaint to the ombudsman wrt FOI which wasn't even acknowledged.

If you are wondering why...I flew the Trident in the 70s and had a specific bomb threat as well as a couple of general ones. The Manchester flight had a viable device but management lied to us. It was a period where Balpa had to force BEA to take over our personal life insurance cover as it was negated by flying into a war zone!

[jolihokistix]

Re Chugalug2 "BTW, I seem to remember in the film Lawrence Olivier (as Dowding) saying that he had lost 400 aircraft in and over France, whereas this programme spoke of 900 I think. Were the other 500 not from Fighter Command?"


This explains for me why he put his foot down at that war office meeting with Churchill and insisted that the remaining squadrons were to be kept back for the coming defence of Britain. And Churchill backed down, despite his promise to the desperately pleading French.

[Chugalug2]

jh, this post from another site suggests that the 900 and 400 of total and fighter losses respectively are if anything a considerable understatement for RAF losses in the Battle of France:-

Actually, there are several historians who point out the magnitude of the Luftwaffe's losses during the 1940 campaign in the west.

For example, E. R. Hooton, in Phoenix Triumphant p. 267-268 lists Luftwaffe losses as 1,428, 0f which 1,129 were lost due to enemy action. Hooton goes on to list 1,092 aircrew killed, 1,395 aircrew wounded, and 1,930 aircrew missing. Corresponding French losses were 574 a/c lost in the air (of which 174 were lost to Flak), 460 aircrew killed and another 120 taken prisoner. RAF losses were 959 aircraft (of which 477 were fighters and 381 bombers) and 912 aircrew killed or missing (of which 312 were pilots) and another 184 aircrew wounded.


This is from :-

https://forum.axishistory.com//viewtopic.php?t=111632

Other posts talk of 453 Hurricanes lost, the very great majority being on the ground.

You are right. Dowding's plea that his fighters be withdrawn from France meant that he could prevail, just, in the forthcoming Battle of Britain. A great commander and shabbily treated by the RAF, the Air Ministry, and his fellow RAF VSOs.

[jolihokistix]

Thank you for a well-considered and informative post. The losses were surely horrendous, but could perhaps not be revealed to the British public at the time.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Dowding#/media/File:Dowding_and_The_Few.jpg

[jolihokistix]

Which is maybe why it has taken so long to understand the truth behind the Dunkirk recriminations.

Here is a shot of the Merlin piston that I mentioned earlier. (Click to enlarge)

[Fareastdriver]

Totally off thread but of interest to all those who have been to Hong Kong and have ventured on the ferry to Macau.

Main structure of Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macao Bridge finished - Xinhua | English.news.cn (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-07/07/c_136425839.htm)

I've had a look at this on Google Earth and you can see the silt building up behind the bridge piers already.

[pzu]

Again off thread, but Danny - would you (if you could)???

Inside the airport control tower that's now a luxury holiday apartment (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/europe/sweden/stockholm/articles/stockholm-airport-control-tower-luxury-holiday-apartment/?WT.mc_id=tmgoff_fb_tmg)

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

[MPN11]

I assume random items of totally uncoordinated furniture is the new Scandinavian style? And where's my anemometer readout? And the sprightly female ATC assistant bearing coffee?

[Danny42C]

pzu,

If it were somewhere nice, and I could have the rest of the building to store all my stuff in, it might not be a bad idea (I don't do minimalist !)

Meanwhile I'm quite happy where I am. In any case would need to consult daughter, who has taken over mantle of SWMBO.

Danny.

[Chugalug2]

The Frying Pan Hotel at the bottom of the page is reminiscent of the various Thames estuary area AA Forts of WWII. One of them, Rough Tower off the Suffolk Coast, is now the independent Principality of Sealand.

[PPRuNeUser0139]

I've been persuaded to add to this great thread a tale or two about the activities of the Comet Line.

For those of you who are unaware, the Comet Line was an evasion network set up in 1941 by Andrée De Jongh, a 24 yr old Belgian woman and financed by Britain - thanks to Michael Cresswell (a British diplomat). Its aim was to repatriate shot-down Allied aircrew.

http://www.cometeline.org/DD-Creswell-75ans.jpg
Andrée De Jongh and Michael Cresswell (British Embassy, Madrid)

This picture tells the graphic story of Bomber Command's losses:

http://lancaster-me699.co.uk/onewebstatic/a8ea615961-Statistics.gif

The white crosses present the percentage Killed in Action; the red crosses those injured; the yellow boxes those taken POW and the solitary blue box - the evaders. 125,000 airmen served in Bomber Command, and for every 100 airmen - 55 were killed on operations or died as result of wounds, three injured (in varying levels of severity) on operations or active service, 12 taken prisoner of war (some wounded) and 27 survived a tour of operations. Only 2 would evade capture after being shot down.

As the war progressed and the 8th Air Force joined the action, the numbers of aircrew 'on the loose' in Nazi-occupied mainland Europe swelled dramatically.

http://www.bombercommandmuseum.ca/photos/p_losses1.jpg

It was a story of 'ifs'.. If the aircrew survived their aircraft being attacked by fighters or subjected to flak, if they were able to exit the aircraft, if they survived the parachute landing - often at night - without breaking a limb, if they weren't captured immediately, if they were able to make contact with someone sympathetic to the Allied cause and if they were passed on to Comet, then they stood a reasonable chance of making a 'home run'.

The route chosen by Comet for the evaders, led from Brussels to Paris. Then Paris to Bayonne in the Pays Basque by train. After lodging in various safe houses, the small groups of evaders would be led by Comet guides over the Pyrenees at night to a safe farm in Francoist Spain - from where they'd be collected by diplomatic car and driven first to Madrid and then Gibraltar for onward passage home.

http://www.gibraltarairterminal.com/cms/images/stories/airport/Lockheed_Hudson_of_No_233_Squadron_RAF_(August_1942).png

More to come..

[Danny42C]

sidevalve,

Splendid ! This is exactly the right place to tell the story of those heroic men and women in the Nazi-occopied countries who, at the grave risk of their lives, hid our downed airmen from the Germans, and smuggled them over the border into neutral Spain, from where they were able to make their way back to Britain.

It should do much to counteract the false impression supplied by " 'Allo, 'Allo" on TV !

And the pics are excellent - Thanks !

Danny42C

[Chugalug2]

Welcome, sidevalve, to our cyber crew-room. What a fascinating introduction to a story of which many of us are only vaguely aware. Speaking for myself though I should know a lot more, and look forward to your future posts revealing everything and everybody.

We are used here to celebrating members of the allied armed forces, of the trials and tribulations of those on the home front, and even acknowledging the achievements of our enemies. What we don't tend to dwell upon though were the stark choices facing the occupied civilian populations. Some would choose collaboration, whether overt or covert, most to keep their heads down and try to wait it all out, and some to take active steps to thwart the enemy occupier's plans and to aid the allied effort.

Comet resulted from the determination and courage of those who chose the latter course. Such a choice was a fraught one to make. One only has to imagine the dangers and consequences they faced and wonder if that was a choice that we could make ourselves.

Thanks sidevalve. Over to you.

[PPRuNeUser0139]

Here's the question..

Andrée De Jongh used to warn prospective helpers for the Comet Line that their operational life expectancy was no more than 6 months (maximum) before being arrested by the German security services.

And once arrested, the gloves were off. Unlike the aircrew, the provisions of the Geneva Convention didn't apply to civilian helpers of organisations such as Comet - so those arrested were subject to the grisly medieval methods of 'interrogation' employed by the Gestapo and the SD.. followed by execution or deportation to concentration camps.

So - what would you have done?

About 288 aircrew evaded successfully via the Pays Basque from 1941 to mid-June 1944 when the Normandy landings made transits through the fighting area too hazardous. After June 1944, Comet developed other methods of evasion for the aircrew and by the war's end a total of some 800 aircrew had been repatriated. Stopping the outflow of aircrew evaders via Comet became the priority for the Germans as the evaders were, for the most part, operational aircrew (some intelligence agents and saboteurs used Comet also).

Bear in mind that the Comet helpers were untrained amateurs and they had only their wits to rely on. In contrast, the security services of the Occupier had had several years to practice their dark arts. How much training had the aircrew in evading? Perhaps Danny can answer that one.

[ricardian]

This list of 1940 pay scales for RAF airmen was recently posted on Facebook and may be of interest


https://scontent-mad1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19894800_975684139239094_5716944011315737897_n.jpg?oh=640a84 00ad35c01f60738c840347a91e&oe=59CA6184

[ICM]

Regrettably, especially given the selfless and courageous efforts of those running the escape lines, they and evading aircrew were also prey to collaborators infiltrating those lines. Largely the work of one man, Jacques Desoubrie, 168 Allied aircrew shot down over France in 1944 were betrayed to the Gestapo. They did not go into the normal Luftwaffe-run POW system, but were held instead in Fresnes Prison near Paris, in close confinement and in poor conditions. In mid-August 1944, as the Allied advance neared Paris, the prison was emptied, the men were packed into boxcars for a 5-day rail journey to Buchenwald where conditions were immeasurably worse. The Luftwaffe eventually became aware of this illegal imprisonment and secured the release of the 166 surviving men to Stalag Luft 3 in late October.

I have to admit to only having become aware of the fate of this group of airmen a few years ago, and I understand that there was a degree of official unwillingness to publicise their treatment on return. A book, "168 jump into Hell" by Arthur Kinnis and Stanley Booker was published in Canada in 1999, and relates the whole story.

[Blacksheep]

...I can't say I heard anything that would have justified such a delay over the standard 30 years.Perhaps certain matters concerning downed RAF Aircrew being denied boarding?

[Danny42C]

sidevalve (#10972),

..."perhaps Danny can answer that one"...

Yes, Danny can - at OTU in 1942 absolutely none ! (Apart from the standard: "All you're obliged to tell them is your name, rank and number").

In Burma later, there was really no point. Either the Jap got hold of you or you managed (with the help of villagers) to walk back out (many did).

If the Jap got you, you did not have to fear imprisonment - as a rule they chopped the heads off aircrew on the spot.

Managed to avoid all the uncomfortable "Escape and Evasion" exercises that came my way in later years. Nearest I ever came to one postwar was on leave in Oberammergau: the RAF had one running in the snowy woods nearby, and sometimes the unfortunates "escaped" from their Course and crept into town for a warm-up and some grub.

Once again, sidevalve, our thanks for opening yet another line of nostalgia in this our hydra-headed Thread. Pull your chair nearer to the cyberstove and give the fire another poke ! We are all ears !

Danny.

[Fareastdriver]

168 jump into Hell" by Arthur Kinnis and Stanley Booker was published in Canada in 1999, and relates the whole story.

It's in Wiki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KLB_Club

[PPRuNeUser0139]

Thanks for confirming what I have long believed Danny.. It was probably thought that any discussion of, or training for, evading in enemy-occupied territory would be "bad for morale"! (akin to providing pilots in WWI with parachutes!)

I've been putting together a map showing all the sites of interest connected with Comet - because as the story progresses, it should prove useful in orientating yourself. There are still a handful of places to be added, especially in and around Paris.

Let's see if this works.. Map (http://www.zeemaps.com/view?group=2576501&x=11.249346&y=53.441626&z=12).

Standard tools for accessing the map: to slew the map off - drag and drop, zoom in/out via the +/- signs, and select either map or satellite view at top left. Click on the legend to the right to go straight to the pin required. If you click on a pin, you can enlarge the image by clicking on it. If you spot any errors/typos/omissions, please let me know - thanks.
Edited to add: a couple of the pins now have videos embedded - Nos 45 & 88

More to follow.

[MPN11]

Fascinating. And God bless the Luftwaffe guys who retained a sense of decency in those awful days.

[Danny42C]

MPN11 (#10979),

There was a similar story (for which I can give no reference), in which a group of RAF prisoners had been handed over to the Gestapo instead of going direct to an Oflag or Stalag.

Realising what now awaited them, the officers of a nearby Luftwaffe unit went down in a body to the local Gestapo HQ and demanded their release - at pistol point ! They were handed over; their rescuers took them back to camp, fed them, and made sure they were handed over to the proper POW authorites.

I do not know what the repercussions might've been: it is likely that the rescuers were confident that Goering (himself a fighter pilot from WWI) would back them up.

Is the story true ? Dunno - I hope so !

Danny.

[teeteringhead]

Speaking of "gentlemanly conduct", ISTR a tale of a British Pilot interned in Southern Ireland who managed to escape to the North.

From where the appropriate authorities smartly sent him back!

[perhaps this should be in the "getting Lost" thread!]

[Geriaviator]

The airmen concerned had given their parole not to escape, and were allowed to wander freely in nearby towns. In practice Allied airmen were returned to the Northern Ireland border while Luftwaffe were interned for the duration. As far as I recall, the British authorities did not want to endanger this working relationship with neutral Eire.

Repairable Allied aircraft were also flown out of Eire, including Fortresses, Liberators and Hudsons on ferry flights which sometimes landed on beaches. A couple of Hurricanes and a Lysander (?) were purchased by the Eire government and retained for their own use. At war's end a German crew took the latest Ju88 night fighter and landed near Dublin. The crew were interned and the aircraft flown to Britain by Lt Cdr 'Winkle' Brown.

[Chugalug2]

Danny:-

Realising what now awaited them, the officers of a nearby Luftwaffe unit went down in a body to the local Gestapo HQ and demanded their release - at pistol point ! They were handed over; their rescuers took them back to camp, fed them, and made sure they were handed over to the proper POW authorites.


Indeed, Danny. A known incident that reflects well on those same Luftwaffe officers and the good fortune of those they saved from a dreadful fate. The irony is that of all three Third Reich armed forces, the Luftwaffe was the one most identified with the regime, the one that was most Nazified, the one whose leader was second only within the regime leadership (of course that was not to last...). There was concern however within the Luftwaffe of the effects of Hitler's infamous Commando Order of October 1942 that no Allied Commandos were to be taken alive, especially as it became interpreted amongst the more zealous that the order extended to Allied Air Force 'terror flyers'. It was feared that revenge for such acts against Allied airmen would be taken against Luftwaffe POWs held by the Allies. So there was method as well in keeping Allied airmen out of the clutches of the SD, the Gestapo, etc....

[ricardian]

Over on Facebook we have George Montague who is now 94. Here's a photo of him at the age of 19 doing his air gunner/wireless operator course at Blackpool in 1941.

https://scontent-frx5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/19955983_1501567273237693_1273887946757536203_o.jpg?oh=c41c9 b932cc7bfa556304b81391c9804&oe=59FC2003

I'm trying to persuade him to visit this group on pprune.

[goudie]

I wonder how many of them survived the war

[Chugalug2]

Interesting that one of them is a Corporal. Presumably he had already attained that rank before becoming U/T aircrew. Is that an armband that has slipped down to his cuff, with the entry/course number on it? I guess he was the one who had to march them everywhere as a group! :O

[PPRuNeUser0139]

This is a potted history of the Comet Line and I ask for your understanding for this necessarily abbreviated version of historical events. There are bound to be those who I'll leave out in this and subsequent posts.

The German blitzkreig in May-June 1940 overwhelmed the defences of Holland, Belgium & France and forced the evacuation from Dunkirk of the British Expeditionary Force (BEF). Inspired to action by the deeds of Edith Cavell (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edith_Cavell), Andrée De Jongh, a 24 year old Belgian nurse, decided that she had to do something to help the Allied cause. As she herself put it in typically uncompromising fashion:

"When war was declared I knew what needed to be done. There was no hesitation. We could not stop what we had to do although we knew the cost. Even if it was at the expense of our lives, we had to fight until the last breath."

Dédée, as she was better known, decided to created an escape route for stranded British soldiers (of which there were many in Belgium post-Dunkirk).

http://margoytia.fr/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/88876551.png

The situation wasn't promising.. the Channel ports were heavily guarded and it didn't seem possible that she could lead soldiers back to Britain from there. So, undaunted and funded by the sale of her personal jewellery, she set off by train to south west France with a Scottish soldier and two Belgian volunteers.

After crossing the Pyrenees on foot, she presented herself at the British Consulate at Bilbao and requested support for further passages. The consular staff displayed understandable scepticism and disbelief about her story and it was only the intervention of Michael Cresswell, a young diplomat at the Madrid Embassy, that saved the day. He decided that she was 'kosher' and said that Britain would fund the network with one proviso: that only aircrew would be repatriated. Dédée's response was positive but she insisted that the network had to remain under Belgian control. And that's how it remained to the end of the war.

The network was first known as the "Dédée Line" - only becoming the Comet Line later on in the war. Its aim was to shelter, feed, clothe and provide false papers to shot-down Allied airmen and guide them over the long and hazardous journey from Brussels to the Spanish border. From there, the evaders would be collected by diplomatic car and driven to Madrid and then Gibraltar for return to Britain by sea or air. Comet's motto was "Pugna Quin Percutias" ("Fight without killing").

The Comet Line comprised some 2,000 dedicated volunteer helpers and a chain of safe houses that stretched from Brussels to Paris and on down through occupied France to the Basque country. Having escorted her small groups of evaders on the express train from Paris to Bayonne, she would join up with the legendary Basque guide and former smuggler Florentino Goikoetxea and together they would lead the aviators over the Pyrenees on foot at night and into the hands of British diplomatic staff based in 'neutral' Spain. Hundreds of Allied airmen and others were helped by the Comet Line network to escape the grisly clutches of the Third Reich.

Florentino was a smuggler by trade and when he was presented to the King at Buckingham Palace at the end of the war for the award of the King's Medal, the King asked him through an interpreter what he did for a living? He famously replied that he was 'in the import and export business'.

Map here (http://www.zeemaps.com/view?group=2576501&x=4.817311&y=47.727571&z=14).

More to follow.

[Danny42C]

sidevalve (#10987),

Thank you for your brilliant desciption of the "Comet" escape route, and the maps. I had not realised how extensive and how well organised the system was. I would surmise that, postwar, most people here, if they thought about it at all, imagined it to be small scale "ad hoc" business. This has opened my eyes.

And all honour to the Countess de Jongh ! (RIP). She was well worthy to be ennobled by the Belgian king, and of the award of the George Medal here in 1946. But it is possible for an Honorary Knight or Dame-hood to be awarded to non-British subjects. Most of these have naturally gone to military men, but a more recent civilian example is Spike Milligan (an Irish citizen).

Could we not have stretched as far for her ?

Danny.

[PPRuNeUser0139]

I couldn't agree more Danny. I think Andrée De Jongh (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/30/magazine/30dejongh-t.html)'s case would, and should, have attracted much support from service sources.

She was a remarkable woman.. After her wartime achievements, she returned to the Pays Basque to walk again over the same routes she'd walked at night with her airmen evaders (I think she did 32 'out and back' crossings during the war) with Baron Jean-François Nothomb (aka "Franco") who had taken over the leadership of Comet after Dédée's arrest on her 33rd crossing in January 1943. (A graphic account (https://www.390th.org/war-stories/down-memory-lane-return-to-belgium-and-france/)by a B-17 crewman of a parachute jump and an evasion in company with "Franco")

Many members of the Belgian aristocracy were involved with Comet as they all knew each other and so it made penetration of their ranks by German agents more difficult - but sadly, it didn't stop it. Some 280 members of Comet in Belgium died (shot or deported to the camps) - some as a result of English-speaking Germans posing as evading aircrew, fake networks set up by the Germans to entrap the genuine article and by the use of double agents. Prosper Dezitter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosper_Dezitter), Jacques Desoubrie (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Desoubrie), Maurice Grapin and Englishman Harold Cole (https://forum.axishistory.com//viewtopic.php?t=63974) were some of the most notorious double agents (https://theescapeline.********.fr/2012/06/traitors-part-2.html) working for the Germans.

In the Pays Basque, far fewer died (only 7) as the guides were all Basque speakers and, being recruited from the ranks of the cross-border smugglers, they had an instinctive disregard for authority (some were Spanish Basque exiles) and 'getting inside' the organisation proved problematic for the Germans.

Following Dédée's arrest, I believe she was interrogated 19 times by the Germans before she was deported first to Ravensbrück and then to the hellhole that was Mauthausen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauthausen-Gusen_concentration_camp).

Following this, she went to Africa where she spent 28 years nursing lepers in the Belgian Congo, Cameroon, Addis Ababa in Ethiopia and Senegal before returning to Belgium in ill-health where she died in 2007. I spoke to a number of evaders in London in December last who had walked the night-time peaks of the Pyrenees with Dédée and, 70-odd years on, they still speak of her in glowing terms.

[blind pew]

Wrt British prisoners in the Republic.
A friend of mine's father was CO of the prison camp in the Curragh.
The prisoners had to sign out for their parole. The infamous case was of an officer who signed out then immediately returned as he had forgotten his gloves. On leaving for the second time he wasn't asked to sign out again and returned to the UK as he hadn't technically given his parole.
The Irish complained to the British who returned the offending officer.
There is an interesting site which details all of the aircraft that crashed or landed in the republic, many of which were returned.
Foreign Aircraft in Ireland 1939 - 1945 (http://www.ww2irishaviation.com/index.htm)
The first one was on the day hostilities were declared and three seaplanes accidentally landed in the republic. Two were at Skerries in the sea in front of my home and the third was in Howth.
What is very sad from the site is that many of the airman who were repatriated were killed later on in the war.
There are still wreckage on Irelands peaks.
I stayed in Rosslaire Monday and in front of my bedroom window is a plaque to the Viscount that crashed at Tuskar rock...the official line was fatigue, the unofficial was she was shot down by the RN.

[Chugalug2]

sidevalve, thank you for painting such a vivid picture of the "Dédée Line", which personally I much prefer to the later appellation. What an amazing and inspiring lady she was. No matter her stature, she was a giant among men (and women of course).

She started this service to allied serviceman immediately following Dunkirk, and it soon built up to involving 2000 volunteers and a chain of safe houses en-route via Brussels, Paris, and the Pyrenees. Just thinking about that would have been a remarkable enough achievement in peacetime, but in enemy occupied territory it was incredible. How quickly that happened you will no doubt cover in future posts even if the high-water mark was only just before D-Day and the Liberation of France it is still incredible.

Incidentally, let no-one be fooled by the labelling of Vichy France as being the "Zone Libre". It was as rabidly anti-Semitic as its Northern neighbour, and so collaborationist that its security forces were hand in glove with its Nazi counterparts. Yet this is a human story rather that one of regimes, and I expect that we will be treated to the good and the bad on both sides of the divide.

I agree with Danny, she should have been ennobled by us, along with others who did such vital and dangerous work for us. Perhaps though that would have upset our new friends and allies in the Cold War, in Paris and Bonn.

[blind pew]

Chugalug.
Yes the French were (are) terribly anti Semitic.
The imperial war museum at the elephant and castle has a holocaust exhibition on at the moment. I avoided it on my other visits but today I ventured in.
There is a cine presentation of the Vichy French in all of their glory which is as inhuman as Kristallnacht was.
I knew some of it as my "new" sister in law's family on her mothers side were exterminated. Her mother survived the camps as she was a pretty teenager...

Not very different to the genocide in Algeria and throwing handcuffed demonstrators into the Seine during the 50s.
They learnt well from the Germans and razed whole villages with all of their occupants in North Africa.
Serves them right that the Troika is bankrupting them especially with the French convicted criminal running the IMF.
Makes me ashamed to be a frog.

[Icare9]

OK, War brings out the worst, but can we distinguish between then and now please?
I'm as enthralled by WW2 exploits as the rest of us here, but let's stop at modern "politics" and the IMF.
Personally, I think that, with the UK (that's all of it, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland) having decided last year that "enough is enough" to come out of the EU, then anyone talking down the UK from that moment on is as guilty of treason as Guy Fawkes.
The UK voters said "Out" so let's do that with the maximum efficiency and the minimum of animosity.
Back on topic: Prosper de Zitter and the rest were collaborators of the worst kind and deserved their fate. That hundreds of Belgian, Dutch and French resistants paid with their lives for assisting escapers or the downfall of the 3rd Reich should be honoured.
Yes, there was ambiguity with the French in WW2; a proud Nation humbled, having been bled dry of the best in WW1 it had little left, but many continued the fight, tentatively at first but with growing confidence until Sept 1944.
I;m no eloquent speaker, WW2 should not have happened, had the Allies been less punitive with reparations and more punitive against burgeoning Germanic pride and Hitler, but it happened.

[ancientaviator62]

The treaty of Brest-Litovsk was as severe in many ways as was that of Versailles.
When discussing Versailles we must never forget just how the Germans treated that part of France (and Belgium) they occupied for four years. IMHO the real mistake was the total lack of reaction when Hitler reoccupied the Rhineland.
As always giving in to bullying merely encourages the bully.

[Chugalug2]

Wise words, aa62, and we should never forget the lessons of history lest we be doomed to repeat them again and again.

Having said that, this thread is about the past. It is about WWII and its immediate aftermath, not withstanding the even more restrictive setting of the OP from which we have strayed, but within generally agreed bounds. It is certainly not about modern social and political mores as Ic9 gently reminds us. I would merely, and just as gently, include in that the EU, Brexit, and comparing dyed in the wool opposers of Brexit with Guy Fawkes! :confused:

Let us leave all such thoughts to other forums and other threads and stick to the matter in hand; the Dédée Line", the duty and sacrifice that entailed, and the terrible attitudes and forces that it was confronted with.

[ancientaviator62]

chug,
now regaining track. Several years ago I met a chap whilst I was on holiday in Malaysia. He was in a wheelchair having lost both legs. We got to talking and it transpired that he had been in the RAF in WW2 as a Sgt pilot. He said he had been shot down during the Dunkirk evacuation but he was not a fighter pilot.
He had been flying a Coastal Command Anson and never saw the a/c that shot him down. He was picked up by a destroyer and by the time he got to hospital amputation was the only option. He was the life and soul of the party and still traveling wherever he wanted.

[Chugalug2]

aa62, such moral courage (for how else can one describe it?) is humbling. Such are the extraordinary people that are simply ordinary people until a life changing event (personally physical or political) threatens to shatter their previous existence. It happened far more frequently to far more people in WWII than these days thankfully, though there are remarkable exceptions of course and visible every day on our TV News. Andrée Eugénie Adrienne de Jongh was such a person, and should be remembered and celebrated by all those who care for our freedom.

[PPRuNeUser0139]

The Germans adopted the carrot and stick approach to the problem of downed aircrew or parachutists. This was their starting position:
https://jimmcneill.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/german-poster.jpg
Eng translation:
Landing of Aviators or parachutists.
Very important warning to the population.
The Field Commander reminds the French population for the last time that the sheltering, hiding, aiding or assisting in any manner, the passing of aviators or parachutists, English or American, is done so under the penalty of death.
On the other hand, the Field Commander will compensate for information leading to the arrest of these fugitives by releasing prisoners of war from this region.

Downed aircrew landing in the Low Countries suddenly found themselves in the dark (in more ways than one). As the drone of the bomber stream overhead faded, they quickly had to start making the first of a series of good decisions. Ditch the parachute, get as far away as possible from the crash site, find a hiding place to lie up as dawn approached.
Making that first contact with local people was always a nerve-racking hit and miss business. Local priests were thought to be a safe bet.. along with school teachers.
Despite the above warning, resistance groups in the Low Countries were organised to collect downed airmen and pass them on to known Comet contacts. However, the Germans also mounted patrols with dogs at the same time to try and capture airmen before they vanished.
If the airman was lucky enough to make contact with a genuine resistance group (such as Service EVA or Front de l’independence (FI)) they had to be convinced that the dishevelled figure was who he purported to be. Some of the questions used in interrogations of RAF airmen have survived. Examples are, “What do you write on the back of the leave-form?” “Are the Houses of Parliament blacked out?” “Are officers in the RAF allowed to have WAAFs for house servants?” “What railway station is nearest to the Grosvenor Hotel, London?” “Did you ever see ‘Waltzing Mathilda’?” “If you know your way in London, where is Swan and Edgar?” Most questions, however, involved technical terms.
If he passed the interview, he would be given civilian clothes and a guide would take him to Brussels where the Comet organisation would take over. He'd have his photo taken in his newly acquired civvies for his false papers, a cover story, accommodation and food. If he had been injured, a doctor would be found to patch him up - without morphine - before he could start down the line.
Robert Grimes, a B-17 aircraft commander, had part of a 13mm bullet in his upper leg. His guide, Micheline Dumon, (aka "Lily") found a doctor in Brussels who was prepared to operate without anaesthetic and remove it. Full story here (https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/magazine/2004/05/30/up-in-the-air/5f08f109-2247-42cd-a2ac-2e3f6d88fd91/?utm_term=.8c82d99c64d6). (A couple of years ago I was privileged to have the opportunity to walk with Bob Grimes' daughters over the exact same route their father took through the Pays Basque and over the Pyrenees into Spain.)
The aim was always to minimise the time that an evader spent in one location (to reduce the risk) and so he would soon find himself under the charge of a guide (usually a young woman), on a train to Paris, together with two or three other evaders. They would be told to follow the guide in single file, no closer than 15ft apart and to talk to no-one. They'd be given newspapers to read (or to pretend to read!).

More to follow.

[Chugalug2]

sidevalve, so we are now full square back into the Bombing Campaign, to the many doomed flights that entailed, and to the fate of those who managed successfully to survive the death throws of their stricken aircraft and were now having to seek help to evade capture and the life (or death) of a POW.

Interesting that the Germans saw fit to publish their "very important warnings to the population" both in French and in English. No doubt this was as much to dissuade evading aircrew from compromising civilians in occupied countries as it was to dissuade the corresponding civilians themselves. That it was so notably unsuccessful in either regard is tribute to the duty and training of allied aircrew to escape and evade, and to the moral courage of civilians facing certain death and reprisal against loved ones in assisting them to do so. We in the UK must give special thanks that we were not faced with such agonising decisions, or with such stark warnings from the "Field Commander".

Bob Grimes is another who exudes moral courage. Any pilot will relate to his constant revisiting of that last flight, over 60 years before the Washington Post story of 2004 that you link us to. Should he have turned back once the fault was seen and diagnosed, knowing that it would only worsen its effect with further climb? Did he not do so faced with a hard line command policy equivalent to Bomber Command's label of LMF? Did he do enough to ensure that everyone (including those injured in the attack on the aircraft) could abandon it before he did? The ball turret gunner survived though, and that alone is of some solace to him (being the most vulnerable position of all). There is no easy answer to any of these questions, certainly not from a generation spared such daily dilemmas. I imagine the constant anguish that gave Bob Grimes throughout his life was far more telling than the bullet lodged in his leg and extracted surreptitiously and without anaesthetic. Brave people all. Respect!

[PPRuNeUser0139]

I'm putting together a post that describes how Comet was set up..
In the meantime, here's George Duffee's story (http://www.conscript-heroes.com/escapelines/EEIE-Articles/Art-27-George-Duffee.htm) in his own words about 22nd June 1943, the day that changed his life.
George is described in many places as a veteran but he and his dear wife Janet are anything but! He was shot down while returning from his first bombing raid in his Halifax bomber on the night of 22/23 June '43.
It was his flight as "second dickey" - in other words, as supernumerary pilot before he commenced operational flying with his own crew.
After the eventful saga he described above, he finally found his way down to the Pays Basque, courtesy of "Franco" and Comète. He and a small party of other evaders were led over the Pyrenees via the Bidassoa route by the legendary Basque guide Florentino Goikoetxea on a night march in the rain that lasted 14 hours.
He can laugh about it now! (just about!) This experience marked him for life.
Here he is in the photo taken by Comet for his false papers.
http://www.cometeline.org/143.jpg
On his return to Britain, he went back to operational flying and went on to fly 39 more operational sorties. He was honoured with the award of a well-deserved DFC. After the war, he flew some 236 sorties during the Berlin Airlift after which he became a civil airline pilot for British Airways where he had a distinguished career. A charismatic gentleman with a permanent twinkle in his eye, he exudes the indefatigable spirit that saw him through all that life could throw at him. George and Janet inspire respect and great affection from all who meet them. They now live in happy retirement at Aberaeron, Ceredigion.

[ricardian]

Over on Facebook we have George Montague who is now 94.


On Facebook Edna Hilditch said
We had 2 Cpl Air Gunner's at Linton on Ouse when I arrived there in 1972, George Smith and George Moore, fantastic guys who were our permanent runway caravan controllers

Would this be in your time Danny?