Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II

[MPN11]

Union Jack (#11999),

And now we've hit 12,000 Posts! This Prince of Threads of ours goes from strength to strength. Long may it do so !

Danny.
Ooops, missed that in my multi-tasking twitterings. Sorry, Danny, should have left that one for you :)

[Danny42C]

MPN11 (#11997),

Fine body of men - none finer than the second left front row! Looks serious - well he might, he was to commit matrimony at end of course. .....Compare and contrast with the haggard creature at Leeming 14 years later !

M/Nav Ponti-Piccolomini was later commissioned. With him in Germany: he had two OMQs as he had 14 children and a wooden leg! Had been in the bomb-aimer's position in a Boston (?) when the chap formating on them put a wing tip into his glasshouse. - nasty.

Thanks for the pic, Danny.

[MPN11]

Danny, he has a steely eye about him. ;)

Our lovely Stn Cdr at Tengah had numerous children, but seemed to cope (AFAIK) with one MQ. At social events at 'his place' one was assailed by very small people at knee level offering canapés ... how sweet was that? And what good training for their assorted futures?

Gp Capt Peter Latham (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Latham_(RAF_officer)), of fond memory, and his numerous (6-8?) children.

(Who's Who seems to suggest 2 sons and 6 daughters. Do pilots never sleep?)

[Wander00]

Did anyone know Master Nav Warrior, who transferred to Air Traffic. Father of longstanding friend

[Geriaviator]

Thanks to MPN11 for his excellent and informative blog on the treatment of prostate cancer, one of the many illnesses that were never discussed in our younger days. As my 77th approaches next month, all my body bits have shrunk except this badly designed component which has become grossly enlarged, though fortunately benign so far. This enlargement restricts the surrounding plumbing, resulting in frequent visits.

Most of us have learned that three times a night when you're 25 means something quite different when you turn 75. (The nice thing is that you forget what was different.) Men can be placed on medication to relax the bladder muscles and make life more comfortable, although one side effect for me is a dripping nose, of course much easier to manage than the previous leaks at lower level.

Joking apart, let's all be more aware, and whether you're aviator or penguin, ex-Service or civvy like myself, please don't ignore problems when you pee (or try to). Help is there for the asking. Our best wishes to MPN11 for his continued recovery.

[MPN11]

Woo ... I have started a mega thread deviation here!!

Thank you, Sir. “Everyone” goes on about breast cancer, but our chaps’ problems have tended to be denied until very recently. I guess my motivation for going public was to encourage blokes to actually GET TESTED ... I don’t know why we are genetically inclined to avoid going to the Doc, but it doesn’t do you any good at all!

As to the side effects ... certainly I now find my nocturnal totters to the loo are decidedly less frequent, but actually worth the journey, so something’s going right. Tamsulosin (one a day) seems to help too. However, I’ll be glad when the side-effects of the Girlie Pills subside ... the fatigue is rather tiresome, to say the least.

And now we should return to normal PPRuNe programming!! ;)

[Danny42C]

Geriaviator (#12006),

Same trouble, had it hacked out, complete success. Kept alive by eight tablets per day of six different kinds plus three inhalers. Feel quite guilty when I see all the boxes, and think of what this is costing the taxpayer. Then think of the Income Tax I'm paying - and feel a lot better !

Danny.

[jeffb]

I have recently read 2 books on the formation of 6 Group-one was a semi official diary, the other was the experiences of a pilot assigned to 6 Group. ( 6 Group was the RCAF,s contribution to Bomber Command, in addition of RCAF aircrew who served within RAF squadrons.
In both books, the initial condition of the aircraft were lamented, in particular those airframes relegated to training. In it the pilot observed that he felt many crews were needlessly lost due to the poor mechanical condition of the aircraft. He himself experienced 2 complete engine failures, and was successful in coping; over, however were not.
I am fortunate to have Dads log book, and going through it a few things stand out;
Ansons seem to have given little problems, either in Canada or the UK
Fairy Battles and Bollingbroks seemed to suffer from frequent turret issues, resulting in several flights being incomplete.
All flights on Whitleys appear to be without issues
Halifaxes at HCU seemed relatively problem free, except for recurring issues with oxygen systems, and Gee systems ( rather had to do a GEE stooge with a u/s system)
Training on Lancasters prior to being posted to front line squadron being rather short, just over 10 hours.
At Kirmington, the only major mechanical problem they experienced was the double engine failure I had mention in a previous post; starboard outer caught fire just prior to lift off, and starboard inner failed and caught fire about 40 minutes later. No other problems resulted in operational issues,
Dad did mention that the condition of front line aircraft did vary greatly amongst the squadron, that the sprog crews were assigned what Dad would call the ' the old war horses' These were airframes with some hours on them, as well as battle damage. These were fully repaired, but Dads major observation was that they were, well, a bit clapped out and just wouldn't climb fully loaded
This begs the question, does anyone have any idea what the criteria would have been to remove an airframe from front line service and relegate it to a training role?
Thanks
Jeff

[MPN11]

Danny42C ... I'm sure you've paid enough into the pot to cover the cost!

Now, serious question. What did they do about taxing your pay during WW2 ... the Arnold Scheme in the US, or when you were serving/fighting in India? Did HMG just deduct at source before letting you have the remains? Likewise National Insurance, of course.

[MPN11]

jeffb ... I have no idea, but I suspect one consideration would b the supply of new aircraft to replace attrition losses on the front line. It would be a bold CO who said "We're not flying this one on Ops any more" unless he had a very strong case.

[Danny42C]

MPlN11 (#12010),

In those days, the average working man's weekly wage did not reach £3 pw until the war. Income tax was not levied on such small amounts: you had to be "posh" (ie professional type) to have an income high enough to be taxed. National Insurance was paid by a weekly NI stamp on your Card. From memory I think it was 1/10d pw, of which the employee only had the 10p deducted from his wages.

As LACs (5/6d a day, £1/18/6 pw) we paid no tax, the RAF presumably paid the NI. At $4.08/£. that would work out as a dollar a day. in the States, that was what we were paid. (An American Cadet on the same Course was paid seven times as much).

In India, as a Sgt/Pilot on 13/6 a day, we were only paid by the RAF the rough rupee equivalent of our £4/18/6 pw , about Rs60 pw after deductions, as I remember. Commissioned, it was a whole new ballpark: you were now paid by the Government of India on a much more generous scale - a P/ O was on Rs500 pm (about £36 pm); a F/O on Rs600 and a Flt Lt on Rs700 pm. They would not dream of taxing a British officer of the Raj !
That was fine - but you caught a cold when you got home !

Danny.

[Chugalug2]

jeffb, old/obsolete aircraft relegated to the training role certainly contributed their own problems. The Blenheim was state of the art in its day no doubt but that was many years, let alone days, in the past. As a Bomber OTU stalwart its shortcomings may be gleaned by the many RAF war graves in Oxfordshire churchyards alone. Perhaps it was your father's good fortune that it does not feature in your list and hence, presumably, in his log book.

Of the 55573 aircrew losses remembered by the Bomber Command Memorial, over 8000 are ascribed to training losses I believe. Of course many of those would be due to aircrew error and lack of experience rather than aircraft shortcomings, but the latter has a habit of encouraging the former...

[MPN11]

Thanks, Danny. At least HMG let you be poorly paid without exacerbating the situation!! And a resounding "thank you" to the Government of India!!

[ian16th]

When I became a Boy Entrant in 1952, this was my 1st 'employement' and I remember that my NHI stoppage was 1/9 a week. I have no idea what was contibuted by my 'employer'. In the RAF we never had the card with stamps on, and these had been discontinued by the time my service ended.

As for Income Tax, I started paying that at in 1954 the rate of 1d a day when I was promoted to SAC on 11/- a day. As an LAC on 10/- I was apparantly under the threshold.

But lets face it, nobody joined the military to get rich.

[Fareastdriver]

a P/ O was on Rs500 pm (about £36 pm)

As a Pilot Officer on my first squadron in 1962 I got about £45/month net. £5 to the mess for extra? messing and maintenance, About £17 on the bar book and the rest I squandered.

In about 1975 an married Pilot Officer on the ground staff at Odiham qualified for Supplementary Benefit.

[binbrook]

In 1952 a NS AC2 was paid 4/- pd and NI was 3/- pw, so no income tax to pay, and the paying officer had it easy - you got £1 one week and 30 bob the next. AFIR the regulars among us got 7/- pd.

[roving]

This is a useful tool for making comparisons between 'back in the day' and now.

Historical UK inflation rates and calculator (http://inflation.iamkate.com)

£45 in 1962 is £950 today.

[MPN11]

I know I got £52/10/- as a plt off in late 65. Going to check comparative data.

... which shows not a huge difference (do they still have plt offs?):
1965 = 12,156 net.
2108 = £15k-£19k gross.

old (2007) PPRuNe thread here >>> https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/280538-raf-rates-pay-1950-s-1960s.html (https://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-280538.html)

[Geriaviator]

It’s almost 70 years since Binbrook School headmaster Alfred Gordon took his class to visit the RAF graves in St. Mary’s Churchyard. He told us he remembered many of the young Australians who had frequented the Marquis of Granby beside his house, and explained that they had died for our freedom.
The airfield is long gone but the 460 Sqn Memorial is opposite the school on the corner of the Market Rasen road. When I returned to Binbrook 12 years later, as a young man, I was moved to find this poem framed and placed in the nave of St. Mary’s. It still resonates today.

Written by 460 Squadron veteran Geoff Magee, to his Absent Friends.
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn,
So truly says the Ode,
And as we age we think of them,
For whom life’s course has flowed.
Some died still boys in cruel war,
For some the tears have not yet dried,
But all have given us a store
Of memories, to recall with pride
Of ops we shared, and the life we knew,
And the Squadron where we tried,
To Strike and Return each time we flew,
But sadly, where many died.

Sometimes I hope that when I die,
There will come a ghostly Lanc,
Winging through the night-time sky
To land on a soft cloud bank.
And out will step some angels,
And those angels all will be
Those Squadron mates of every rank,
Come to escort me.

And the pains of age will leave me,
As through the skies we soar,
With the sounds of angels singing,
And the Merlin’s ghostly roar.

[Fareastdriver]

John Gillespie Magee RCAF also wrote the poem 'High Flight'. There is a tribute to him by John Denver.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Wrz715AXqw

[MPN11]

Wow, FED, never knew that existed. An ex-Arnold pilot? Or was that the RCAF production line?

And just 19-yo ...I just shivered when I read that.

[Fareastdriver]

Born in Shanghai of an American father and British mother. Enlisted in the RCAF in 1940.

[MPN11]

... and when I was 19, I dread to think. Enjoying the Swinging Sixties, getting copious leg-over, pratting around on 2 wheels, enjoying the benefits of the Air Training Corps and getting a haircut before heading to BRNC. Dear God, my generation was exceptionally lucky.

[Danny42C]

roving (#12018),

Thank you for a most informative link. Having put in a Post on this very subject (Inflation) many moons ago, under the title "Economics for Tiny Tots", I tried to recover it through "Search this Thread" without success (there's a surprise!) As so often, Google saved the day and I found it on Page 27 of the Archive. When time allows, will compare this Inflation Table with the ones I used.

But that is not the point of this Post. Roaming around in the Archive (as one does), I came across a subject which our long-term readers will remember well. I cannot do better than to reproduce it here:

..........


"Danny42C
1st Dec 2014, 00:07

As this Thread has been running for 6 years, has generated 6,500+ Posts spread over 327 Pages and is still going strong, it occurred to me that some of our more recently joined contributors may not have had the time or the stamina to work through all the "back numbers".

This would be a pity, for many of them are well worth digging out, and I thought I would point the way to one of the most exciting and "cliff-hangering" of them all. This is regle's (RIP) account of the Tel Aviv hijack (42 years back this last May), when he wasa 707 Captain with SABENA.

I thought to list pages and Post numbers. From memory, I'm sure the whole story was brilliantly written out in great detail by Reg from beginning to end, but now it seeems that the most dramatic part (the end) has been taken down. No matter: here is the "steer"to what is still on Thread:

30th May 2010, p.89 #1776 Flight to Hell Aviv

1st Jun 2010, p.90 #1786 The time has come...

"And there I must leave you again until the next instalment"

3rd Jun 2010, p.90 #1790 More...

4th Jun 2010, p.90 #1796 Into the Lion's den.

5th Jun 2010, p.90 #1798 A new day dawns...

6th Jun 2010, p.91 #1801 Enough is as good as a feast.....

and:

"I am going to disappoint a lot of people but I have come to the conclusion that it is better to leave you all "cliff hanging" as it were. so there will be no more on the events of nearly forty years ago from me. It left an indelible scar upon my life and the life of my family and I pay homage to the people of all faiths who suffered . Please understand. Regle"

Reg died on 1st August 2010.

Wiki has the whole story (Sabena Flight 571), but, as I recollect, it was (originally) much more completely and better told by Reg himself on this Thread, where he carried on Posting (at the time) after #1801 until the successful end of the affair (marred only by the later death of one passenger wounded in the firefight). (And, IIRC, Reg flew the aircraft back to Brussels the next day !)

He was (rightly) fêted for his coolness and acumen throughout; he was honoured by the Belgian King; the story was told in the media around the world, exciting admiration and respect on all sides.

Why these his final Posts were taken down (presumably by him) is a mystery to me, but of course "we understand", Reg, and we must not pry or speculate now or ever. So, from one old Arnold Scheme Aviation Kay-Det to another: Cheers, Reg !

Requiescas in Pace.

Danny.
Warmtoast
1st Dec 2014, 17:55
Danny42C


Why these his final Posts were taken down (presumably by him) is a mystery to me

I assume something about them must have upset him. I posted some UK press cuttings about the event and he asked me to remove them, which I did (Page 91 Posts #1806 and #1807 refer)

Meanwhile your post prompted me to explore further and was surprised to learn that a young (Lieutenant at the time) Benjamin Netanyahu participated in the rescue and was wounded.

Two years ago there was a conference held in Israel to mark the 40th anniversary of the Sabena rescue mission. As reported in the Jerusalem Post at the time:

.........


"On May 8, 1972, four Palestinian terrorists from Black September boarded Sabena Flight 571 from Vienna to Tel Aviv. Twenty minutes after taking off from a scheduled stop, the hijackers took control of the flight and instructed the captain to continue as planned to Israel’s Lod Airport (now Ben Gurion International Airport). Less than 24 hours later, Israeli commandos, among them today’s most prominent Israeli leaders, launched a daring operation to rescue the flight’s passengers and retake the plane.

Soon after realizing the gravity of the situation, English-born Captain Reginald Levy radioed ahead to Israel to notify authorities of the terrorist plot flying towards them at hundreds of miles per hour. Then-defense minister Moshe Dayan immediately began organizing a response, a perhaps far-fetched plan to rescue the passengers.

In initial contacts, the hijackers made their demands: They would free the passengers and crew in exchange for the release of over 300 Palestinian prisoners held by Israel.

After nightfall, hours after the plane had parked near Lod Airport’s lone terminal, Israeli forces carefully snuck under the plane to deflate its tires and disable its hydraulic systems. In an attempt to calm the terrorists after they discovered the plane had been disabled, Captain Levy kept them occupied through the night with constant chatter, discussing “everything under the sun … from navigation to sex,” he later recalled.

In the morning, the hijackers sent the plane’s captain to show the Israelis that they indeed possessed adequate explosives to destroy the plane. Levy, realizing that the only hope for him and the passengers (one of whom was his wife) lay in the hands of the Israelis, provided them with detailed about the hijackers’ whereabouts and the layout of the plane.

Armed with a better understanding of what they were up against, 16 commandos from the elite Sayeret Matkal unit disguised themselves as airplane mechanics. The team was commanded by current Defense Minister Ehud Barak. Other members of the team included current Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu, former MK and Mossad chief Danny Yatom and former MK Uzi Dayan. The commandos approached the plane and pretended to examine the equipment on its underbelly.

Having successfully reached the plane without raising suspicion, the commandos quickly removed the Boeing 707’s emergency exit doors and immediately engaged the terrorists. “It was over quickly, in seconds,” former Sayeret Matkal soldier Eliezer Sacks recently recalled to The Jerusalem Post. Hours after being freed from the hijacked jetliner, one passenger told Channel 1, “We saw what appeared to be an ElAl crew approaching, within one minute [they] broke into plane. Within two minutes it was all over.”

Another passenger described the firefight, saying that first shots fired by the commandos hit one of the female hijackers in the rear of the plane who was gripping a hand grenade. The man, excitedly recalling the events to Channel 1, said he immediately grabbed the grenade and held the spoon down to stop it from exploding.
Two of the terrorists were killed in the raid and two others, females, were captured. One passenger was killed in the firefight and six passengers were wounded. Netanyahu was also shot during the operation, reportedly by friendly fire.

In a touching close to the story, 35 years after the Sabena crew and passengers were rescued, one of the commandos who took part in the raid returned Sabina Captain Reginald Levy’s captain hat to his daughter, Linda Lipschitz, then an editorial assistant at The Jerusalem Post. Levy, who remained in contact with Ehud Barak and President Shimon Peres for the remainder of his life, passed away last year at the age of 88.

Along with the Entebbe Operation four years later, the rescue of Sabena Flight 571 remains one of the most daring Sayeret Matkal operations known to the public. The operation has been studied and greatly praised by security forces the world over for its efficiency and success. Steve Linde contributed to this report

Full details here together with two links to YouTube videos of the rescue:
This Week in History: Israeli commandos retake Flight 571 (http://www.jpost.com/Features/In-Thespotlight/This-Week-in-History-Israeli-commandos-retake-Flight-571)"...

..........


Subsequently, I learned that Reg's Posts had been collated into a posthumous excellent book: "Night Flak and HiJack" published by his family. Clearly the Posts relating to the incident had (quite understandably) been taken down to protect book sales. I have the "Kindle" version, and it is an excellent read. It is available from the Brazilian River.

I would assume that it has dropped out of the "best-seller" list over the years, and I hope this my mention of it may reawaken interest in it.

Rather "a big helping", but "when the Lord made Time, He made plenty of it".

Danny.

[ricardian]

A love letter on a vinyl record (https://www.rafa.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Voices-of-the-Forces-Annie.mp3) recorded in India, October 1945. Can you help find Rick Wilkinson of Salisbury? (https://www.rafa.org.uk/findrick/)

[Warmtoast]

Re Danny's piece about Reg Levy above.
Reg's obituary together with a photograph of the man himself appeared in the Guardian here:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/aug/23/reginald-levy-obituary

[roving]

He truly had nine lives, four of which are recorded in the Guardian Obituary.

In November 1942, having been injured by anti-aircraft fire over northern Holland, he flew the damaged aircraft back, on one engine. The remaining engine failed over East Anglia, the bomber crashed into a wood, and yet Levy and his navigator survived.

His plane was hit – while raiding Mannheim – by a Luftwaffe nightfighter

over Hanover, a bomb from another aircraft plunged through his Halifax, without detonating over Hanover

On his (50th ) birthday (on 8th May 1972), he was flying a Boeing 707, with Dora and 89 other passengers, from Brussels to Lod airport, near Tel Aviv, via Vienna. Twenty minutes after takeoff from the Austrian capital, and at 30,000ft, Levy's career collided with the Israel-Palestine conflict. Two men asserting membership of the Palestinian Black September Organisation (BSO) broke into the cockpit with pistols and a grenade, while their comrades, two women with plastic explosives, remained in the cabin.

[OffshoreSLF]

Talking of hijacking, I very nearly got caught up in one in 1970. BOAC flight 775 from Bahrain on 9th September 1970. The hijackers flew it, and another 2 if I remember correctly, into some airfield in Jordan, took everyone off, then blew up all the Aircraft.

Long story. I should have been onboard, but we were delayed by engine trouble. Only time I've been happy to be delayed!

[roving]

Edited extracts from an article in today's Guardian, written by  Michael Morpurgo, the author of the book (which became a movie) 'War Horse', in which he explains why he has written and published a new book 'In the Mouth of the Wolf'. (Yes I know there is a thread for 'books', but this is about WWII).

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/may/07/michael-morpurgo-my-family-fought-for-peace-not-for-brexit

My uncles have fascinated and inspired me since I was a child. In my family, their lives are legendary. All my writing life I had wanted to tell their story. Writing it was my way of trying to remember them, of acknowledging my debt to them, and all the millions of “mouthless dead” of two wars. They had fought for peace. ...

The two brothers, though very different – Francis, tall, confident and charismatic, Pieter, smaller, tentative and fragile – were close. They came from a Christian socialist family, their father, Emile, was a Belgian poet and free thinker, later art critic, philosopher and professor of Belgian studies at London University. Their mother, Tita, was an actor, a devoted Christian, a formidable and highly principled woman. There were four equally formidable sisters, my mother among them. It was a house of music, theatre and books, of heated discussion and strong opinions. Holidays were often spent walking in the Ardennes, which the family loved.

Francis, a socialist and pacifist, went to Cambridge and became a teacher. Pieter went to Rada in London and was starting out on a promising career as an actor when war broke out in September 1939. He joined up almost at once. Francis, following his convictions, became a conscientious objector, and was sent to work as a shepherd on a Lincolnshire farm. The Germans were soon invading Belgium, through the family’s beloved Ardennes, and marching into France, towards the Channel. Invasion was threatening.

In 1941, Pieter, now a sergeant observer in the RAF, was killed when his plane crashed in St Eval in Cornwall. The family were devastated. Francis, still shepherding but now a husband and father, decided he could no longer stand by while others were fighting for his family’s survival, and for the beliefs and freedoms that were so precious to him.

He confided his dilemma to Harry Rée, his great friend, fellow teacher and pacifist, who, unbeknown to Francis, had already joined the Special Operations Executive, SOE. Francis spoke fluent French. Harry said that could be useful, and that he would put him in touch with someone in London. Francis walked into an interview in an upstairs room in Baker Street a shepherd, and came out an officer in the SOE.

After months of gruelling training, during which he could say nothing to his wife, Nan, or his friends and family, Francis found himself in German occupied France. In Paris, he realised at once that fellow agents there were compromised. Within days more than 60 were rounded up and shot. Francis by this time had made his way south, where he found himself organising and supplying resistance fighters, the Maquis, across a swath of southern France, an army that in the end numbered more than 10,000 men and women, comprising communists, socialists and Gaullists, from all walks of life, all determined to rid their country of the invader.

So this pacifist uncle was now a secret agent, fighting the enemy, living in constant danger of capture and death. But he proved to be an agent who had all the right instincts. Trust, he knew, was everything. He had seen others’ mistakes. He picked his few friends with great care. He was courageous, and scrupulous about security, never sleeping more than two nights in one place. He inspired and gave great loyalty.

The Germans put a huge price on his head, but he was never betrayed. He managed to outwit both the Gestapo and their counterparts in the dreaded French Milice, and survived these perilous years through his skill and bravery, but also through the love and courage of his comrades. He returned after the liberation of France to his family, and to his life as a headteacher, and a principal of teacher-training colleges in England and in Botswana.

When Francis was an old man, I visited him in Le Pouget, the village in south-east France where he came to live in his latter years, to be closer to his family and his old friends from the resistance. Only if pressed would he speak of his war years. Two weeks before he died, the villagers gave him a 90th birthday party. The children sang, the mayor made a speech. He was a legend there, too, not only in his family.

[MPN11]

One here for Danny42C ... now you can see what was inside the ops Bunker (3m50s onwards)!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2hvGjZRFmQ

[thegypsy]

I always remember a post by regle who when on Mosquitos decided it would be a better career move after the war to have 4 Engine experience so he asked to go on 4 engine bombers whilst all around him bomber aircrew were dropping like flies.

[ricardian]

The RAF in the days when we had LOTS of aircraft

[Wander00]

Roving - lot of dust in the air today, but thanks.

[Danny42C]

MPN11 (#12031),

Thank you for pointing me to this clip. I shall always look back with affection on the three years I spent with the Auxiliaries at Thornaby (en passant finding me a wife, tho' not of their number).

The essential point of the R.Aux.A.F Fighter Control Units was that they formed an instantly available, fully trained Reserve for the Rotor Defence system. We reckoned to get our (mostly) girl Plotters and Operators, and ex-war Fighter Controllers in, on the bus, and "down the hole" in three hours, although this was never put to the test, because of the enormous disruption it would cause to local schools, shops and offices concerned. Fighter Command would get another Vampire squadron (608) at the same time.

An amusing quirk: although a supermarket checkout girl with three months' WRAuxAF service could have a Special Security Pass to go down our "hole" (RAF Seaton Snook), I (their Adj) was denied such a Pass, because as an admin-wallah I had "No need to know". Same went for the Station Commander !

Of course, in the event of a Warsaw Pact strike in Europe, the RAF's existing Reservists (and, I suppose, all who'd served in the trades involved in WWII) would be called in. But they would need to be rounded up, medically checked, kitted out and refresher trained); all this takes time during which our people would "hold the fort" with the drastically reduced number of RAF Regulars.

I think it would have been "All right on the Night", but mercifully we never had to find out. They were disbanded in 1957. Had Peace broken out - I wonder.

Danny.

[radar101]

Thanks Ricardian - nice sequence of a 56 Sqn scramble

[ian16th]

I was reliving my Valiant Years On Youtube at: Vickers Valiant - The First British V-Bomber when I found at approx 39:17, there is an interview with Sqn Ldr 'Tiff' O'Connor, he mentions that he flew the Vengance and there is footage!

Danny, Did you know him?

[Danny42C]

ian16th (#12037),

Thanks for the video - v.interesting, too. No, the name O'Connor does not ring a bell, but there were four RAF VV Squadrons, and one IAF with a half-RAF component. The VV footage is well known IAF stock, probably produced back at the OCU in Peshawar, for no one in the forward areas would be allowed a camera, still less a home cine (for security reasons).

My guess is that Sqn Ldr O'Connor came out towards the end, when the Mossies were introduced to replace the VVs (which had all been [prematurely IMHO] pulled out of the line on the onset of the '44 Monsoon), and were lying around all over the place and doing odd jobs till the bitter end, when all were scrapped.

Danny.

[MPN11]

Looking back at the earlier YouTube material, I found it interesting that aircraft were happily operating from ‘grass parking’. Something small/light like a Vampire of Meteor I could understand, but that ‘stream taxy’ off the grass by Canberras was an eye-opener.

[Octane]

I found this photo trawling through the internet. I hope it hasn't been posted before? It may be a little after your time, 1942?

On the back of the photo is written:

British cadets and their instructor, Carlstrom Field, Arcadia region, Florida


L-R: Thompson, Hurst, Instructor Caroll Stoeckel, Osborn, Crayer and Parkinson.
Also notes the Instructor was paid $70 per week. Seems a lot of dosh for those days?!

Best wishes

Michael

[Fareastdriver]

Seems a lot of dosh for those days?!

A bit of research.

$70/week..$3,640/annum

US inflation 1942 to 2018. 1437.1%

$3,640 is now $55,950

In 1942 $3,640 @ US$4/£1 would be £910/annum

In 2018 $55,950 @ US$1.35/£1 is £41,350/annum

A reasonable going rate for an instructor.

[Danny42C]

Octane (#12940),

Michael,

Yes, by 1942 I'd got my "tin wings", and I was back in UK. But the pic needs a bit of interpreting. Clearly annotated by a US clerk, the studes are called "Mr" (the correct mode of address for an Aviation Cadet in a USAAC Flight School), although they are actually RAF LACS.

"Cary" (in the white flying overall) will be the instructor. But six studes to one instructor seems an awful lot. Four was the usual number - and on average, around a half would be "washed-out" in the first two weeks, anyway.

All we wore during the whole six months "Arnold" Course were these flying overalls (our blues having been left behind in Canada), and on my Wings parade in March, 1942, my silver wings (in the form of a brooch) was pinned on them. We were very rarely off camp, but all I then had to wear was the Thirty-bob-Tailors light grey suit they gave me in Blackpool. Coming in to the States in September, 1941, I had to be a "civilian", you see - as the US was still "neutral" ! But in the BFTS, ISTR that they were kitted out in US tropical shirts and slacks, worn with Caps (FS) and white flash.

So "Cary" was on $70 pw. $300 pm. At US$4.08/£ (fixed rate) that was £74 a month - £900 pa, a dream salary in UK. Good money in the States, too, an Aviation Cadet was on only $200. Probably they paid him at the rate they paid their 2/Lieut Instructors, $300 a month at a guess. Us ? - a dollar a day !

Hard to translate into present day figures, but a rough figure for wage inflation ratio over the period would be 150:1. Say £135,000 pa. for "Cary" - Good going!

Never could remember where the pitot head was on a Stearman. What is that funny little thing on the strut showing just above the prop tip ?... Anybody?

Dennis (aka Danny42C)

[Danny42C]

FED (#12941),

US inflation 1942 to 2018. 1437.1%

Are you sure the decimal point is in the right place ?

Danny.

[Octane]

"What is that funny little thing on the strut showing just above the prop tip ?... Anybody?"

Danny, could that be part of a fuel line? It seems the 2 fuel lines, one either side from the tank up top (46 Gallons apparently) were secured to the struts on their way to the engine...

The aircraft pictured is #51, did you record such info in your logbook in 1941?

Edit: Having a quick look on the 'net reveals several Stearmans with the pitot tube mounted on the outermost strut on the port side. Ring any bells?
Seems like the going rate for an airworthy example today is around US$90,000 compared to the new price of US$11000 in WW2...

[Danny42C]

Octane (#12044),

Nope - recorded no Stearman numbers at Primary. Started doing it on the BT-13s at Basic.

So where was the Pitot Head on a Stearman anyway ? Our Instructors had an ASI in front, so there must have been one somewhere, but the stude in the back had to fly without. Suppose I should know, but I don't.

Danny.

[Octane]

Here you go Danny, half way up the vertical strut port side...

Copyright to "Trade-a-Plane"

[Fareastdriver]

US inflation 1942 to 2018. 1437.1% Are you sure the decimal point is in the right place ?

That's what the website say so maybe the Yanks use different figures.

Inflation Calculator | Find US Dollar's Value from 1913-2018 (http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/)

I cannot see them earning $1.5 million.

[Danny42C]

Octane (#12046),

So that's where it was ! Never remember any cover on it. I don't suppose we did much of a walk-around anyway. Lovely pic of a fine old aeroplane !

Danny.

[Octane]

It does look rather beautiful doesn't it. Imagining a young Danny clambering into one brings a tear to the eye to be honest.
What colour scheme were your aircraft Danny?

[Danny42C]

Stumbling around looking for something else, came across (Page 117 #2335) <Army Air Corps Cadet, Pilots and Instructors: WWII Flight Training>, (Link Posted by Chugalug 18/2/12). Worth a read,

It would seem that the civilian instructors at Carlstrom were in an outfit called
...The CPTP (Civilian Pilot Training Program) and a large network of civilian flight schools under contract to the US Air Corps, as well as conducting training in its own schools...

This seems to have had its own "wings": my Bob Greer would presumably have been a member. After Pearl Harbor, they were commissioned as reserve officers in the USAAC. I suppose they would be 1st or 2nd "Lootenants": it is entirely reasonable that their pay as former civilians would be much the same as a starting 1/Lt.

And how much would that be? Here I must admit that a lot of my cherished beliefs have been Googled and Wiki'ed into the bin. Item: an Aviation Cadet
did not get the $200 pm I spoke of. He got only $75 pm ($50 + $25 Flight Pay), which is only twice as much as ours at dollar a day.

(Question: how would he have been able to "save enough out of his [six] months pay for a substantional deposit on a new automible ?")

Item: a starter 1/Lt got $166 + 50% = $249.

[Auth: Google <rates of pay usaaf officers in 1941>, select:
<U.S. Army WWII Pay Scale - Forums At The Military Horse
https://www.militaryhorse.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9760>]

Which is not the $300 I assumed - but he was doing all right all the same !

There must be some of these "on frequency" still alive, who could give us the 'gen' - Please ?

~~~~~~~~~~~

FED (#12047),

I reckon it should be 143.71%, which is not far from my rough 150:1 for UK.

~~~~~~~~~~~

Octane (#12049),

Ours had a natty blue fuselage, yellow wings and a blue and striped tail. The young Danny could hop in better then than he could now (you'd need a hoist, I'm afraid !)

~~~~~~~~~~~

Danny.

[Ormeside28]

The Stearman, PT17s which we had at Terrell ( 1 BFTS ) were numbered and we logged the numbers in our log books, likewise the “Harvard” or AT6a. Our pay October to June 1943/4 was 25 dollars every fortnight. I was never aware of the pay of the Instructors, nor even the Aviation Cadets on our course 18/19 (mumps, back a course!). Happy days!

[Fareastdriver]

I reckon it should be 143.71%, which is not far from my rough 150:1 for UK.

There must be a Doctor of Mathematics on this thread but my understanding is that 100% is the same again so 100% inflation means double the original. 143.7% would give a result that is 1.437 times the original.

1437.1% is 14.37 times the original which is closer but not the same as the on line calculator.

However the calculations I am using are inflation figures. Wages have outstripped inflation considerably over the last seventy odd years.

That's from a successful O level Maths graduate.

My head hurts; I think I need a drink.

[Octane]

Bit like this one Danny? A better view of the Pitot tube on this photo..

Again, thanks to Trade-A-Plane

[roving]

The Stearman, PT17s which we had at Terrell ( 1 BFTS ) were numbered and we logged the numbers in our log books, likewise the “Harvard” or AT6a. Our pay October to June 1943/4 was 25 dollars every fortnight. I was never aware of the pay of the Instructors, nor even the Aviation Cadets on our course 18/19 (mumps, back a course!). Happy days!

My dad's head, but not his legs, as he prepared for his first solo at Terrell.

[Danny42C]

FED (#12052),
That's from a successful O level Maths graduate.,

A successful HSC ("A" level in today's money), with Pure Mathematics as a Principal Subject, having formerly paid no heed to mundane matters like percentages, has reconsidered, now admits that 1437.1% is correct, and crawls back under his flat stone ......

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Octane (#12053),

Yup, that's my baby. À propos of nothing at all: has anything been heard of our "Bird in a Biplane" lately ? And when is the film due for release ?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Danny.

[MPN11]

My dad's head, but not his legs, as he prepared for his first solo at Terrell.

Lucky! I doubt many here got a ‘First Solo’ photo ... it was usually ‘Instructor gets out, secures straps, and a few parting words of advice” :)

.... unless, of course, taken after surviving First Solo landing! ;)

A lovely bit of memorabilia, though, and I’m sure much treasured.

[Danny42C]

Ormeside (#12051),

Arf a mo ! How come the BFTS at Terrill were paying you $25 a fortnight (rate of $650 pa in '43), while only the year before we Arnold Boys had to make do with $365 pa (no, it wasn't a Leap Year.).
Suppose you needed the extra cash to cut a swathe through the gentle maidens of Terrill, while the USAAC were always in some God-forsaken spot out in the sticks, and starved of feminine companionship.

One Law for the Rich !

[MPN11]

But, Danny42C, there was a war going on. That was no time to start cavilling about pay rates.

BTW, I trust your numerous Pensions now compensate?? :) :)

[Ormeside28]

Poor Danny! Not only were you way out in the sticks, but you suffered demerits and senior course syndrome. Our American Aviation Cadets. ( 20 % ) on our course at Terrell couldn’t believe their luck to be on a “grown up “ station where the senior courses were friendly, we didn’t suffer “demerits mister”, and we did solo low level cross countries. Most of our instructors were very experienced pilots who treated us fairly. It is interesting that we oldies can remember way back, but have to think carefully what/where happened yesterday! Thank you for your story Danny, and y’all take care.

[Dsrsia]

I came across another Arnold file at the PRO Kew reporting on Course 42A and the initial days at Cochran Field, Macon. The course arrived 5 days before start date so Day one was devoted to drill a.m & p.m. Very hot conditions so between drills allowed to fall out & change kit BUT no showers available until 2100hrs. Upper class was required to haze newcomers and initiate them into the Cadet rules. Indeed the report states that the Officers encouraged the Upper Class to haze effectively and remarks that in the past the Upper Class had been exempt from flying for up to one week to ensure max hazeing. Example of Cadet rules were ' Sit on only 3 inches of the form at meals. No talking. Looking nowhere except at the plate. Confined to rooms when not on duty.'
Quote This method of dealing with the British Students drove them to the point of exasperation. Report concludes that the situation was not helped by no flying taking place and the absence of an RAF liaison Officer at Macon. It was felt that a tactful word from him to the Officers may have resulted in a less antagonistic attitude to the Students view of their initiation into Basic School. Last comment was hazeing at the School has now been abolished.
Another report on Dothan states that there was only one Nav Instructor for 150 pupils. The RAF Officer writes 27 Oct 1941 that '' In a recent visit to various Army Schools I have gained the impression from the Students that the only worry is the prospect of elimination and as regards that very little can be done as the Training Authorities refuse to alter their standards in anyway. Elimination has now dropped progressively otherwise I find that the Students are not unduly troubled by the by the strict discipline and this is because the present intake have been put fully in the picture before they came over. ''

[Danny42C]

Dsrsia (#12060),

This is from my Post on "Hazing" (Page 114, #2275 this Thread):

This is the tale I was told, at Carlstrom Field (Florida): Our first British class of 42A met this treatment from 41L - or whatever. There was no particular animus against the British, they would have treated their own chaps just the same. Needless to say, a freeborn Briton would not put up with this; they set upon their tormentors in a body, prevailed and flung them and all their possessions into the camp swimming pool.

Now the authorities could hardly send the whole lot back to Canada - it would provoke a diplomatic incident - so the situation was accepted, "hazing" was suspended, and 42A followed 41L through all three Schools in peace (I don't know about harmony).

Can anyone please shed any more light on this (which presumably must have gone on at other USAAC bases ?) Thanks in anticipation.

No wiser now. Any corroboration ?

[Danny42C]

Ormeside28 (#12059),

All right for Some ! .............. Thanks for the PM.

Danny.

[Danny42C]

MPN11 (#12058),

There's a War on ! - all the more reason that: "The Labourer is worthy of his hire".

Must admit, we live in modest comfort with four pensions (between self and daughter). The country can't afford it for long - but "Après moi le déluge !"

Sorry about you lot, Danny.

[Dsrsia]

I could find no more in the file of official letters mentioning 42A. or any other courses. re hazing There was another series of letters which detail the cost of the Arnold scheme. Originally the Americans wanted $50 Million, made up by 10 for Personnel costs, pay, maintenance & transportation. 32.5 cost of elementary training for 720000 hrs of flying at $45 per hr. 7 for fuel & oil at SFTS, & 1.3 PAA Nav training at Miami. We queried that the Scheme had not applied the Lease/Lend Act and that if something called HR1776 was used the cost reduced to 10 for Personnel, Elementary 7.2 at 10$ per hr, 0 for Fuel, & 0.9 for Nav. Final sentence of the letter to the UK Ministers is we must accept the scheme even if the cost is not below $20 Million.
The thickest File of the four I have seen deals with the official presentation plaques, and letters of thanks to all those who were involved in the Scheme both military & civil.

[MPN11]

And with the USA in the ‘cat bird seat’ and UK up against the stops, there was no doubt it was a seller’s market! As indeed the US did over everything associated with Lend-Lease.

I’m not sure, looking back though a telecope of years, that I don’t think the US were a bunch of opportunist sh*ts.

[Danny42C]

Dsrsia,

You mean we had to PAY for the "Arnold" Scheme !!!! ........ Reminds me of Churchill's reply when the Egyptian Government (reputedly) wanted compensation for the damage caused by the 8th Army: "I will not pay for admission to the Battlefield !"

[Dsrsia]

Danny,
File AIR2/7063 at PRO. Letter dated 22 Apr 1941 states '' Cost of Scheme about $50 Million in a full year on the basis outlined in Arnold offer. '' At this stage Arnold had not yet had approval on his offer of the training facilities ( Not sure if this is our approval or American) Letter continues that we felt that Lease & Lend Act would offer us lower costs e.g not have top pay for fuel & oil. If the Lease & Lend Act applied to the Arnold Scheme on the same basis as intended to apply to the six schools scheme then the cost would reduce to $18 M. Letter goes on to suggest that by using the US Air Training Scheme this would reduce the need to increase facilities in Canadaand that would allow us to spend money on purchasing food & munitions from Canada. Seems nothing was on the house.

[Icare9]

Well, for one, without the Arnold Scheme, we wouldn't have Danny at the controls now, nor would Bomber Command have had the manpower for the heavy bomber fleet of Stirlings, Halifax and Lancasters.
We'd therefore have had to concentrate on twins such as the Mosquito and perhaps other less capable aircraft.
All of which would have meant less pressure on the German homeland, freeing up men and munitions to wreak havoc elsewhere instead of being pinned within Fortress Europe an the Fatherland.
That may have cost us the Victory, which was bought at a huge price in sacrifice and cost.

Had the Marshall Plan been used to assist the UK and our Allies first, and with Reparations being fully paid, the UK would no doubt have thought (as we still do) that the Arnold Scheme was part of the price of Victory. That cost ought to have been recouped from the Axis Powers to ensure the UK was restored to its pre War standing and capability.. But the politicians didn't and as a consequence we are still trying to be a World Class Power on a shoe string and feral youths roaming around killing and maiming. Perhaps a source of manpower for the Armed Forces - to train them with discipline and morl standards as well as challenging their intellect.

But in 10 years time the RAF fleet will simply be unmanned drones commanded by corpulent 14 year olds on their keypads, sticky with McD's offerings.

[roving]

At the risk of being seen to be promoting the 'Jet Blast' discussion about lend lease, I do not for one minute accept that the UK's current economic woes arise from war reparations. To put the cost of the war in context (some $1.3 trillion in current money) the impact on the UK of the Global Financial Crisis a decade ago was, in 2010, assessed at up to £7.4 trillion in lost growth by the Bank of England.

[Brian 48nav]

Roving

Up to now I've enjoyed your posts, but please leave EU/Brexit comments for other threads.

I'm pretty sure that on this, the best thread on PPRuNe, there is an unwritten rule that discussion about Brexit is not allowed in our cyber-crew room.

[roving]

Roving

Up to now I've enjoyed your posts, but please leave EU/Brexit comments for other threads.

I'm pretty sure that on this, the best thread on PPRuNe, there is an unwritten rule that discussion about Brexit is not allowed in our cyber-crew room.

I must admit to misgivings about that part of my post and will amend it accordingly.

[MPN11]

In our Cyber Crewroom, we’re surely still bombing bits of Europe and the Orient? ;)

Agreed that we should try to keep ‘current’ politics out of here, though. Scares the dogs and frightens the horses, don’t ya know! There’s enough ‘historic’ politics to chew over. ;)

All meant kindly, with no reference to any individual.

[ricardian]

Lancaster flies again

https://www.facebook.com/BBMF.Official/photos/a.515596881828663.1073741828.216980461690308/1657090361012637/?type=3&theater&ifg=1
With one of the original Dambuster crew members

[roving]

To make amends part of the full IWM video of the 2017 Duxford air show showing a pair of Spitfires performing aerobatics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOPBEJ1h5SA

And see this one for nine of them at the same show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7sisdvOgdc

For those with two hours to spare, the full show. This year's show will again focus on WWII aircraft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbn4pMTRi-w

[roving]

In yesterday's Telegraph the Obituary for Group Captain Caryl Gordon, the Duke of Edinburgh's flying instructor. He passed away on March 27th aged 94.
In common with others who contribute here, he qualified as a pilot during the War in Canada

Telegraph Obituaries
22 MAY 2018 • 5:57PM

Group Captain Caryl Gordon, who has died aged 94, was an RAF flying instructor who taught the Duke of Edinburgh to fly.

Gordon was instructing at the Central Flying School when he moved to White Waltham to join the Queen’s Flight, which had been allocated two Chipmunk and two Harvard training aircraft for the Duke’s training. After a few hours, the Duke flew solo on the Chipmunk on December 20 1952. The Chief of the Air Staff, Marshal of the RAF 
Sir William Dickson presented him with his wings on May 8 1953.

Gordon remained the Duke’s personal instructor for the next two years, which included flying twin-engined training aircraft before the Duke took delivery of a de Havilland Heron as his personal aircraft. At the end of 1955, when Gordon left his royal appointment he was appointed MVO, later upgraded to LVO.

The son of a former Indian Army cavalry officer, Caryl Ramsay Gordon was born at Cheltenham on July 9 1923. He was educated 
at Cheltenham College 
and joined the RAF in December 1942.

After completing his training in Canada, he returned to England in early 1945 to discover that there was a surplus of pilots. He was trained to tow gliders, but was too late to take part in the last major airborne operation, the Rhine crossing, and he became a second pilot on the Stirling and Halifax with No 51 Squadron.

The four-engine bomber had been converted to carry troops and Gordon flew many long-distance trooping flights to the Middle East and to India.

He trained as a flying instructor at the Central Flying School (CFS) before spending two years as the personal staff officer to the Air Officer Commanding 
No 23 (Training) Group. After a year training pilots at the RAF College Cranwell, he returned in March 1951 to CFS as an instructor on the Meteor jet.

He became the leader of the “Meteorites”, the school’s aerobatic team. Among the manoeuvres he perfected was a unique looping sequence during which he flew inverted while the other members, in close formation, completed the loop in the normal manner.

A photograph of the formation was used for their Christmas card. During his time at CFS, Gordon was twice awarded the Queen’s Commendation for Valuable Service in the Air.

Upon leaving his royal duties, Gordon returned to operational flying as a night fighter pilot and flight commander on No 33 Squadron equipped with the Venom.

After a period at the RAF Staff College and then in Germany, he converted to the delta-wing Javelin and returned to command No 33 Squadron. A few months later he moved to RAF Geilenkirchen in Germany in command of another Javelin squadron, No 5 Squadron.

As a group captain he served at HQ Strike Command before being appointed in 1971 as the Air Attaché in Argentina, with additional responsibility for Uruguay and Paraguay, carrying out his duties in fluent Spanish.

He returned to Britain in December 1973 and his last appointment before retiring was at the RAF College Cranwell.

For two years Gordon worked for the security services and lived in Balcombe Street, Marylebone. On December 6 1975 members of the IRA took over the flat next door with hostages before a six-day stand off with the Metropolitan Police using Gordon’s flat. At the end of the siege it was redecorated at no cost to him.

Gordon was a member of Foston Fishing Club from 1964 and rode with the Holderness, where he was hunt secretary from 1983 to 1991. He especially enjoyed driving his Jaguar XK 140.

Caryl Gordon married his wife Gill in August 1958. She and their son and daughter survive him.

Group Captain Caryl Gordon, July 9 1923, died March 27 2018

[Warmtoast]

Re Group Captain Caryl Gordon's obituary above. This press cutting is relevant.
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/DukeofEdinburghSolo1953.jpg

[Fareastdriver]

For those who are interested in the History of World War II I have found the Battlefield series on youtube. It starts with France and ends with the surrender by the Japanese. It covers everything including Guadacanal and the Russian invasion of Manchuria.

The first series is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbKYbLUkIpk and then it progresses to the Battle of Britain etc..

They last nearly two hours each. A tip is when you start on is to attached it to your favourites list on Internet Explorer. This enables you to stop it mid way by closing your browser if you are required to do something else and on return selecting it as a favourite will restart it where you left off. This means you don't have to scroll though half of it. When it reaches the end of an episode it will roll on to the next.

It can be a bit lecturistic but it covers the nitty gritty that entertainment programs find too difficult.

I found it fascinating with an incredible amount of footage that I had not seen before.

PPRuNe has planted the video on my post. The best way to see it is to go to youtube direct so you can add it to your favourites.

Copy and paste 'https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbKYbLUkIpk'

[MPN11]

Great ... that will give me something to watch instead of bloody football ;)

[Danny42C]

Or bloody Grand Prixes - like watching goldfish in a bowl.
HEADS UP !
Channel 5; 19:55 tonight - "The Dambusters at 75: What Happened Next" (Repeat).

[MPN11]

Grands Prix, peut etre?

thanks for the heads up ... a bleak weekend of TV indeed. I shall have to go on holiday again (Arizona wef 4 June ;) ) where their TV channels are .... ummm ... forget all that!

[Danny42C]

Touché, M'sieu !

Enjoy your trip, Danny.

[MPN11]

"Chocks Away" on Ch. 5 ;)

[roving]

News of Group Captain Hemingway D.F.C.'s passing has been much exaggerated, at the age of 98 he is still in the prime of his life.

Surviving total of Battle of Britain veterans increases from eight to nine | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5776307/Surviving-total-Battle-Britain-veterans-increases-eight-nine.html)

What is remarkable is that he survived the War. He was shot down four times, including in France in 1940, in the Battle of Britain the same year and in Italy in 1945. He was never captured

In these short clips he describes the four occasions he had recourse to his parachute.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTA_AgrJDao
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5UsYC3HsFQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfPls7nFM9g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ydFgKtN2U

[Geriaviator]

Remember the memoirs of Sqn Ldr Rupert Parkhouse, shot down in France on his third sortie in a Farey Battle? His son Richard found this gem on another website, Battle of Britain London Monument - Airmens Stories - Barthropp PPC (http://www.bbm.org.uk/airmen/as-barthropp.htm)

One young man, Rupert Parkhouse, a young Cranwell cadet, spent five years as a Prisoner-of-War only to be told when he got home that one third of his service pay was deducted and that he didn't qualify for the Air Crew Europe Star as he had not completed sufficient time in an operational squadron.

We serialised Rupert's memoirs in this thread last year and they are available if anyone wishes to read them as one document. There is also the e-Book of Danny42C, entitled In with a Vengeance and much enjoyed by many who have received it so far. If you want a copy of either, send me, Geriaviator, a PM containing your email address as we can't send attachments via Prune.

[MPN11]

Bean-counters are nothing new, sadly. A very sad treatment of a victim of the conflict.

[Geriaviator]

A sad sequel ... Rupert, who has vascular dementia, lives in a Bournemouth nursing home. He lost his wife Rosemary last year and he is bereft, but he does not know why.

[Danny42C]

To all our American Friends:

Why do you not have a "Midway Day" celebrated, as we do our Battle of Britain Day?
Military historian John Keegan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Keegan) called it "the most stunning and decisive blow in the history of naval warfare. [Wiki]

Danny (class of 42C USAAC)

[rcsa]

Would anyone happen to know which Squadron Group Captain Hemmingway DFC served with in France in May 1940? My Grandfather was with 3 Sqn based at Merville.

[roving]

Would anyone happen to know which Squadron Group Captain Hemmingway DFC served with in France in May 1940? My Grandfather was with 3 Sqn based at Merville.

Here you go ...

In January 1939, John began training in Yorkshire, and after a period in a flight training school, Pilot Officer Hemingway was posted to No 85 Squadron in Debden, flying Hurricanes.

When the war broke out, John’s squadron was sent to Rouen in northern France and would form part of No 60 Fighter Wing of the Advanced Air Striking Force, providing air support to the British Expeditionary Force. On May 11th, 1940, during the Battle of France, John claimed his first kill, a German Dornier Do 77 light bomber which he helped to shoot down. Later that same day, John was himself brought down by enemy anti-aircraft fire and had to make a forced landing in a field. He was one of the first RAF pilots to shoot down an enemy aircraft over Europe, and was also one of the first to be shot down.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/an-irishman-s-diary-about-john-allman-hemingway-ireland-s-last-surviving-battle-of-britain-pilot-1.2482499

No. 85 Squadron was formed from A Flight of No. 87 Squadron on 1 June 1938 as a fighter squadron. For the first four months of its existence the squadron was equipped with the Glostor Gladiator, before receiving the Hawker Hurricane in September 1938.

In September 1939 the squadron moved to France with the Air Component of the BEF. The squadron suffered heavily during the Battle of France, losing all but four of its aircraft in the twelve days between the start of the German offensive and its return to Britain.

No. 85 Squadron (RAF) during the Second World War (http://www.historyofwar.org/air/units/RAF/85_wwII.html)

This link is useful for 3 Sqn in France,

http://www.epibreren.com/ww2/raf/3_squadron.html#1805

[rcsa]

Thanks, Roving. I don't think there are many other survivors from the Battle of France - and as your link to the 3 Sqn history indicates, there weren't too many made it back from France. 3 was more or less wiped out in twelve days.

[mikehallam]

Ages ago there was discussion about RAF Non-Commisioned aircrew ranks post WW2. I resolved to visit the only one such seen in my visits to British churchyards - Pilot3 B.P.A. Parsons, died 22 December 1947. There must be many more.

Churchyard? Naughty vicar, Daniel in the Lions Den, nearest airfield employed the only lady in this particular role at the time, 1950's. The late Puddy would not have been out of place here.

Sorry 'J' - That's far too obtuse for my withered brain and I'm at least 15 years junior to master Danny -help!

mike hallam.

[Danny42C]

mikehallam (#12092),

Google "Rector of Stiffkey" - Wiki knows all about it. I was at School in Blackpool at the time, but the Pleasure Beach was out of bounds on the rare occasions they let us loose.

[Danny42C]

mikehallam,

In the same year, Stanley Holloway recorded "Albert and the Lion" - all his monologues are amusing.

[Wander00]

. Vicar of Stiffkey was unfrocked for some scandal, became a lion tamer, lion not as tame as he thought and it killed him. Little Snoring nearby as well and my only Tiger Moth flight with the late Peter Charles (Six Feet Over his autobiography ) from Lt Snoring to Langam, where Peter Labouchere now lovingly restores Moths, etc

[Fantome]

https://www.express.co.uk/expressyourself/356253/The-sad-story-of-the-Vicar-of-Stiffkey

[Molemot]

Something for you, Danny...came across this by chance! The video seems irrelevant, but the photos further down are better...

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/02/17/the-women-who-helped-build-wwii-vengeance-dive-bombers/21716400/

[Danny42C]

Molemot,

Thanks for the link ! Video won'l load, but one or two of the pics are certainly VVs, and some of the the engines look like Double Cyclones, but if course these were fitted to many other aircraft. "Rosie the Riveter" was a popular character of the time.

Danny.

[eko4me]

Interesting front page on the English Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vultee_Vengeance_in_Australian_service) today. Any comments from the experts - or indeed our Senior Pilot?

[Danny42C]

eko4me (#12100),

Thanks for the pointer - I had not known of this Wiki before - very interesting.
Comment:
...". All of the variants could carry up to 2,000 pounds (910 kg) of bombs [2][3]".
Mks I and II had a hard enough job lifting off with 1,500 lb. Would say that 2,000 lb was "pushing your luck ! Never tried it on a Mk.III: never flew a Mk.IV.
... "No. 25 Squadron, located at RAAF Station Pearce in Western Australia, received some Vengeances in late 1942, but mainly operated Wirraways until being completely re-equipped with the dive bombers in August 1943.[20] This squadron was the only RAAF unit to be equipped with Mark IV aircraft, which provided far superior performance to the other variants"...
If the implication is that the Mk.IV was used operationally, I would very much like to know what the dive experience (with a 4° Angle of Incidence) was like. Hitherto we'd supposed that all operations were carried out by Mks I and II only.
..."The price for each of the aircraft purchased by Australia was A£90,000.[4]"..
We paid US$63,000 each for ours, which at US$4.08/£ would represent £15.44 sterling (yes, I know we were on Lsd then). What was the relation between A£ and sterling at the time ?
"On 8 March 1944, General Douglas MacArthur's General Headquarters, which commanded all Allied forces in the South West Pacific Area, directed No. 77 Wing's squadrons to return to Australia and No. 78 Wing to move to the Cape Gloucester area of New Britain......... During a subsequent discussion between Kenney and Air Vice-Marshal George Jones, the Chief of the Air Force, the American general stated that he did not intend to use the Vengeance in combat again"
AHQ India called off all VV ops on the onset of the '44 (ca mid-May), so it was a concerted Allied decision. Unecessary (IMHO) as we could've done much more useful work through the '44/'45 dry season. All the VVs and most of the crews of the six squadrons were still in India: the Mossies (which came out to replace us) brought their own crews anyway (and their aircraft started falling to bits, and did not get sorted out until early'45).

Ain't hindsight a wonderful thing ?

Senior Pilot ? Geriatric, more like ! (any advance on 96 yrs and 8 mths ?)

[roving]

A wonderful achievement Danny. Your daughter must be looking after you very well.

[Danny42C]

roving,

Not much of an achievement, really - I suppose living has become something of a habit, hard to break. Yes, my Mary keeps me going with her TLC. She's my Life Support Machine.

[MPN11]

Mary is doing a bloody fine job. High-Five from this location ;)

[Danny42C]

MPN11,

Mary says: "Thank you, kind sir - it's always nice to be appreciated !"

(now what can you tell us about the gangs of feral chickens that are
terrorising Jersey ? see Jet Blast)

[MPN11]

Cheers, Danny/Mary.

Oh, the chickens! Yes, we have a bunch of them further up the lane, near a large pond. Very handsome cockerels. They wander all over the roadway, but have the sense to get out of the way of vehicles. Fortunately a 15mph sped limit up there! There’s another small flock on the hillside opposite, who occasionally wander down to the stables to look for pickings.

Really rather charmingly rural, espcially as we are on the edge of St Helier!!

[Danny42C]

MPN11,

Couldn't you do a deal with Colonel Harland Sanders over these pesky chickens ? I sense a commercial opportunity going to waste ! And don't they wake you up at dawn every morning ?

Or buy an air rifle !

[MPN11]

Wake me at dawn? With my hearing levels? :)

I find them a charming rural occurrence. And I got rid of my .22 air rifle, as local regulations classify air guns as a firearm, and ICBA to renew my FAC!!

What is profoundly worse is the illegal introduction of pheasants, some time ago, which are now [FFS] protected. This is a strange place to live :)

[Danny42C]

I do not usually "bang the drum" for TV programmes, but on my (propped up in bed) morning wanderings on my tablet, I came across My5 > Catch Up > Blaze > Fri Jly6 "AIR CRASH: DISASTERS UNCOVERED
S2 E4 Deadly Crossroads"
There are four Episodes in the Series, all are (relatively) not over-dramatic dramatised documentaries of well known accidents. All four are worth watching, but E4 will make any old ATCO (especially of the Area Radar persuasion) break out into a cold sweat !

Should show it to the studes on JATCS. Recommended, if you haven't seen it already..

[Fantome]

over two weeks - all quiet on this western front - nairy an Indian - nairy a cowboy (wearing his chaparajos back to front, I wouldn't wonder).

SO here for "old mate" , and Nostagia with a capital "N" -http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/albums/Vengeance/Vultee_Vengeance.sized.jpg (http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/Vengeance/Vultee_Vengeance?full=1)

[Fantome]

http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/albums/Vengeance/Vengeance_A27_200_Cooktown_September_1943.jpg

COOKTOWN - SEPTEMBER 1943. (http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/Vengeance/Vengeance_A27_200_Cooktown_September_1943)

[Fantome]

nearly two weeks - all quiet on this western front - nairy an Indian - nairy a cowboy (wearing his chaparajos back to front, I wouldn't wonder).
(The last pic is an RAAF pilot atop his VV.) (The mods have done something inexplicable. I am all of a sudden a new boy again and have no history of previous posts. And cannot post any pictures)

[Octane]

Pilot or ground crew? Danny, were you ever inclined to go crawling over the engine?!

[Danny42C]

Octane (#12111),

No ! In the first place, the top of the cowling (14 ft AGL) was a dizzy height (for me) and then, all the Wright Cyclone family were renowned for reliability over the years. And my experience with internal combustion engines is that they are best left to the professionals to tinker about with: that way your days will be long in the land.

[FantomZorbin]

And nowadays, Danny, unless you have a ferret with a HNC in engineering, it's impossible to 'tinker' … progress huh! :(

[PeregrineW]

mikehallam (#12092),

Google "Rector of Stiffkey" - Wiki knows all about it. I was at School in Blackpool at the time, but the Pleasure Beach was out of bounds on the rare occasions they let us loose.

Ah, Harold Davidson, the "Prostitutes' Padre". This picture of him is marvellous...

"Mother! Yon Lion’s ‘et 'arold!”

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/426x593/haroldwithcigar_5bd2e731e88a09cead14bfb0f4abdedb77c8baa6.jpg

[Danny42C]

Wasn't he "unfrocked" for something or other ? And Stanley Holloway's (?) "Harold and the Lion" was a classic !

They don't make 'em like that any more (more's the pity).

[eko4me]

"Albert and the Lion" (https://www.lyricsfreak.com/s/stanley+holloway/albert+and+the+lion_20606126.html)

[Danny42C]

"Got me !" - Albert, of course, how could I forget ? (because you're a stupid old git, that's how !)

[ian16th]

"Albert and the Lion" (https://www.lyricsfreak.com/s/stanley+holloway/albert+and+the+lion_20606126.html)

I've got a LP of Stan's monologues, including Albert & the Lion, in the garage somewhere.

[Danny42C]

Heads up; Light Entertainment on a dull day,; QSY "Private Flying" Forum, our Tracey's back in town !

[Pom Pax]

Danny,
Whilst watching the BBC show about 100 years of the R.A.F I spotted a shot of Mary Ellis's log book. A monthly summary included "Vengeance 1h:30".

[Octane]

Hello Danny,

"No ! In the first place, the top of the cowling (14 ft AGL) was a dizzy height (for me)"

Isn't a funny thing when 14 ft off the ground can be challenging yet peeling off into a 90 degree vertical dive in combat is all in a days work?!

[Fareastdriver]

It's the last 14 ft. that matters.

[Danny42C]

Pom Pax (#12020),

This is pure gold ! I want to know: is there a note of the Mark, or (better yet) an Airframe No? I have a DVD of "100 years of the RAF", and remember a flash of a logbook page. I think it came from an old BBC Documentary "The Spitfire Girls" of years ago. But it was too short for my old eyes to take in detail. If you still have the recording (or the DVD), could you give me the min & sec into the showing, please, so's I can (hopefully) find it again.

This may solve an old puzzle. Capt. "Winkle" Brown records that he tested a VV (Mk. unstated) and found it useless as an aircraft (which it was). But also said that it was inferior as a dive bomber to the Stuka, in that the VV could not dive vertically (unlike the Stuka), but only at 60-70 degrees. Now we know the reverse is true (for the Mks I and II - US A-31, anyway). Don't know about the Mk.III (also a US A-31), which only came in with the war over. But who is going to gainsay the (late) Eric Brown, the most famous test pilot of all time ? Our esteemed friend "Chugalug" will remember all this .

But if Brown had been given a Mk.IV (US A-35) to test? Many were supplied to us, the RAAF and just about anyone on earth who would take them off Vultee's hands. They had been modified from the Mks. I-III by setting the wings from zero to a +4 degree Angle of Incidence (at the request of the USAAC, which then wanted no part of any of them, A-31s or A-35s).

Far as I know, the only real use anybody found for the IV was as a target tug. Never flew one, never even seen one, but reckon that with an AoI you could not dive vertically, as even with full nose-down trim, at 300 mph the thing would push up hard off target in spite of all you could do.

RIP Mary Ellis ! All respect to a grand old dame (and all the other girls - and men - of the ATA). Only ever saw one in my time (full story at the end of my Post Page 123 #2455 of "Pilot's Brevet").

You will know that the only VV left on earth is in the (temp closed) Camden Museum. Narellan, Sydney. We have established that it is really a Mk. I, but for some reason, the Museum has re-fitted a 0.50 Browning in the back to replace the twin 0.303s it should have. This is the hall mark of a Mk.IV, which has caused much controversy on these pages.

Cheers, Danny.

[Danny42C]

Octane,
Ah, but now I'm strapped into a nice, strong aeroplane and can snap my fingers at Gravity !

FED,
Not the 14 ft that hurts - but the bump at the bottom !

D.

[Pom Pax]

Danny,
I am afraid not pure gold just a very small nugget. The best guess where to find on the program is at or before 41 minutes. As it was recorded off a not advertisement free channel there may be 6 or more minutes of junk on my record.
I posted all the information there was. The clip starts with a view of left hand page of log book with summary for July '45 showing types flown, then McGregor reading them followed by a longer shot of log book showing full summary including hours for type.
If some U.K. based Ppruner could locate and get sight of the relevant log book this should show relevant information of this flight. Given being July '45 a Mk.IV (US A-35) seems likely.

July '45 summary shows:-
Argus ……. 3-50
Spitfire ….. 3-20
Corsair ….. 1-20
Barracuda . 1-55
Sea Otter .. 1-40
Vengeance 1-30
Tempest …. -55
Firefly...…. 1-00
Wildcat...…. -50
Anson
Wellington
Ventura
Mitchell

No explanation given for lack of information on last four types.

[Danny42C]

I would like to express my appreciation of the stalwarts (ca 500 daily) who still hit on: "Gaining an R.A.F. Pilot's Brevet in WWII" Thread (although it is currently languishing on Page 4 of "Military Aviation" Forum).

For many years it was the star of "Military Aviation" and the preceding "Military Aircrew" Forums, and even now has chalked up the greatest number of Posts (12,000 +) and "Hits" (3,000,000 +) of any other Thread on the Forum (if you exclude "CapCom", clearly a special case as by its very nature it will attract an enormous number of Posts and Hits).

I know that all that lives must die; but you must admit that it has been "an unconciable time a-dying" ! And it would be churlish not to acknowledge the latitude always shown to it by our Moderators, which has so contributed to its success over the years. Let's raise a valedictory glass to it, and also to Clifford Leach [RIP] - ("cliffnemo") who started it just over ten years ago.

Danny.

[Union Jack]

And it would be churlish not to acknowledge the latitude always shown to it by our Moderators, which has so contributed to its success over the years. Let's raise a valedictory glass to it, and also to Clifford Leach [RIP] - ("cliffnemo") who started it just over ten years ago.

Danny.
Just the one, Danny? More celebratory perhaps, rather than valedictory in my humble view, but well-filled glass duly raised to you and your illustrious peers for your inestimable contributions, both "then" and over these ten unceasingly fascinating years.

Jack

[Fantome]

How true! Ample cause to reflect upon the careers and the contributions of these who did their bit to make the world a saner place.

[reefrat]

I have at last reached the end of this great thread. It has taken over a year and I love it. One little problem today when I logged on I found that I have advanced 2000 posts,, last night I was happily following the adventures and noting the arrival of post 10,000 with the careful arrangements to allow Lord Danny to have that post,,, where pray tell have the 2000 posts gone. Page number is now given at 304,, but that was also page number at around the 10,000 mark

[Chugalug2]

Danny:-
But who is going to gainsay the (late) Eric Brown, the most famous test pilot of all time ? Our esteemed friend "Chugalug" will remember all this .


Indeed I do Danny, as I do your revelation of the incidence of the MkIV being some 4 degrees whereas its predecessors were set at zero. Thus the MkIV was not capable of an accurate 90 degree dive for bombing purposes, adding dive bomber to all the other uses it was useless at! I'm sure that must be what Winkle Brown condemned, just as you have done ofttimes.

All of which rather begs the question of the Stuka's angle of incidence. Was that also zero? It didn't seem to adopt the typical nose high attitude in Straight and Level as the Vengeance did in contemporary pics. I suspect that it was also a compromise like the MkIV, but perhaps somewhat less so. Certainly Luftwaffe tactics were to use a steep dive rather than a vertical one. That seemed to work well enough for their purposes, given a benign state of air superiority of course.

[Fareastdriver]

The old Ju87 had gull wings and a heavily spatted undercarriage. This would have brought the centre of drag to about the wing roots so it would have been quite happy pointing in any direction. In the Russian campaign when used in the anti-tank roles with underwing cannon the spats could, and in some cases were, removed.

[MPN11]

The old Ju87 had gull wings and a heavily spatted undercarriage. This would have brought the centre of drag to about the wing roots so it would have been quite happy pointing in any direction. In the Russian campaign when used in the anti-tank roles with underwing cannon the spats could, and in some cases were, removed.
Removed, I believe, to avoid them clogging up with snow/mud? In addition, of course, to compensate for the weight of the 2 x 37mm cannon? Although I see Wiki has a photo with spats + cannon, so perhaps not!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_87#/media/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-646-5184-26,_Russland,_Flugzeug_Junkers_Ju_87_edit_1.jpg

[Danny42C]

Chugalug, FED and MPN11,

All water under the bridge now. Would've liked to have tried a Ju-87 in or shortly after WWII, to see how it compared. I never even saw a VV Mk.IV (except one TT in the air postwar), so my opinion of it can be no more than that.

The Wehrmacht did well enough with the "Stuka" in Europe and Russia, but the USAAC turned its back on both its A-31 (VV I-III) and A-35 (VV IV). If the VV did any good at all, I reckon it was in Burma in 1943-44 when the Jap tactic of bunker-digging to drag-out retreat presented it with targets for which it might have been designed.

Fortunes of War !

[jjayjackson]

A long time reader of this thread, and board.
Yet with never contributing anything, as of yet.

Hopefully this video (http://www youtube com/watch?v=ie3SrjLlcUY), is new to some folk.
Spitfire 944

www youtube com/watch?v=ie3SrjLlcUY

Not allowed to post URL's until after 10 post's.
Feel free , to re-post a clickable link.

[MPN11]

The Wiki on the Ju87 is incredibly long and detailed. Made for an interesting read, especially the attrition they caused in the early Eastern Front campaigns. But, as we all know, they needed air superiority ... which we denied them over UK. Huzzah!

[Chugalug2]

FED:-
The old Ju87 had gull wings and a heavily spatted undercarriage. This would have brought the centre of drag to about the wing roots so it would have been quite happy pointing in any direction.


It seems that Captain Brown RN is in full agreement with you, given his quote in Wikki:-

Eric "Winkle" Brown (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_%22Winkle%22_Brown) RN (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Navy), a British test pilot and Commanding Officer of No. 1426 Flight RAF (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._1426_Flight_RAF) (the captured enemy aircraft Flight), tested the Ju 87 at RAE Farnborough (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAE_Farnborough). He said of the Stuka, "I had flown a lot of dive-bombers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dive-bomber) and it’s the only one that you can dive truly vertically. Sometimes with the dive-bombers...maximum dive is usually in the order of 60 degrees.. When flying the Stuka, because it’s all automatic, you are really flying vertically... The Stuka was in a class of its own

Could you explain what you mean by the Centre of Drag? Given a symmetrical airframe wouldn't that act through the centre line of the aircraft, along with the thrust and lift vectors? I know that drag is a many splendored thing, what with profile, form, induced, skin friction, etc etc, but uncertain what if any of these components would be at or near the wing roots, given the inverted gull wings and u/c spats. Incidentally, wasn't the purpose of the wing shape to give adequate ground clearance for the quite large centre line bomb (unlike the Corsair where the prop diameter was the problem)?

[Danny42C]

jjayjackson (#12134),

In the tradition of this noble company, and in my (dishonorary) capacity as Grand (?) Old Man of this, the finest Thread on the Forum, let me welcome you aboard. Draw up a pew (if you can find one) in our cybercrewroom - and give the virtual stove a poke !

Matters arising:

1: I never knew the USAAC had Sergeant-Pilots in WWII (but obviously they did), presumably recruited from the hoi-polloi without the magic two years "College" - "University" to us. Never met one, but as an old Sgt-Pilot myself, would like a natter with one. Anyone know when this started and stopped and why ?

2: Col. Blyth Posted here about it on this Thread donkey's years ago, but "Search this Thread" (predictably) drew a blank ("chocolate teapots" come to mind).

3: Col. Blyth earned his DFC ! It was not healthy to fly over Berlin for half an hour in 1943 in broad daylight. Couldn't a FW190 or an AA shell get up to a Mk.XI PR, then ?

4: "Every pilot should have a chance to fly a Spitfire", the man said. Amen to that, say I.

5: The M.O. (Doc Savage) was able to take home movie film - and the censors let him send it back home to the US, in the middle of a war ? Didn't their "Security" utter a cheep ? In Burma we were not officially allowed to have still cameras (still less film) in case we were captured, and Jap Intelligence could make use of the material. Perhaps they reckoned that, by 1943, the war was over, and Britain was at peace ?

You see, when you throw a stone into a pond ............

[Danny42C]

Pace our Moderators, as rather off-thread to plug ITV; but, for those who have not seen it, My5's: "Air Crash - Disasters Uncovered" series is well worth a look. Mostly not over-dramatised reconstructions of very well known aircraft accidents. But Season 3, Episode 4: "Fight for your Life" was a new one on me, and had me gasping start to finish.

Just thought I'd mention it .....

[megan]

This may solve an old puzzle. Capt. "Winkle" Brown records that he tested a VV (Mk. unstated) and found it useless as an aircraft (which it was). But also said that it was inferior as a dive bomber to the Stuka, in that the VV could not dive vertically (unlike the Stuka), but only at 60-70 degrees. Now we know the reverse is true (for the Mks I and II - US A-31, anyway). Don't know about the Mk.III (also a US A-31), which only came in with the war over. But who is going to gainsay the (late) Eric Brown, the most famous test pilot of all time ? Our esteemed friend "Chugalug" will remember all this .

But if Brown had been given a Mk.IV (US A-35) to test?Danny, what "Winkle" Brown had to say about the Vengeance in his book, "Wings of the Weird and Wonderfull".Although of American origin, the Vultee Vengeance owed its existence to the British. It happened like this. The RAF’s Air Staff had been so impressed with the blitzkrieg effectiveness of the Stuka dive bombers, that it decided it must go into the dive-bombing business, and so in 1940 the British Purchasing Commission initially ordered 400 of Vultee’s dive bomber design, the V-72 or Vengeance. Most of these early Mk.I and II aircraft went to the Royal Australian and Indian Air Forces, and the few that came to Britain were primarily for performance and handling assessment.

The USAAF purchased 600 Mk.IAs, Mk.IIs and Mk.IIIs for Lend-Lease and also retained some Mk.IIs for their own operation. A decision to continue purchasing V-72s for Lend-Lease led to some redesign. The zero wing incidence was changed to reduce the aircraft’s nose-up flight characteristics, and the armament changes saw 0.50 in. guns replace the four 0.30 in.wing guns, and a single 0.50 in. replace the two 0.30 in. guns in the rear cockpit. This was designated the A-35A, and 99 were built for the USAAF.

The significance of the different Marks of Vengeance were that the Mk.I was built by Northrop on direct British contract, the Mk.IA by Northrop on USAAF contract, the MK.II by Vultee on direct British contract, the Mk.III by Vultee on USAAF contract.

Further modifications were introduced in the RAF Vengeance IV and USAAF A-35B. Wing armament was increased to six guns, the bomb load doubled to 2,000 lb. and a more powerful version of the Wright Cyclone installed. A simplified fuel system was fitted, together with spring tabs to all control surfaces.

We received Vengeance IV FD2l8 at RAE Farnborough in August 1944 for comparison with other types of dive-bomber we were testing, and also to assess the effects of the design improvements over the Mk.I, which had four major faults, namely poor take-off, bad view in normal flying attitude, a complex fuel system, and heavy out-of-trim rudder foot loads in the dive.

My first impression of the Vengeance was that it was big for a single-engined aeroplane, and its mid-wing had a most unusual planform. The flat centre section had marked sweepback on the leading edges, while the trailing edges were straight. The outer wing panels, which were set at a slight dihedral angle, had straight leading edges, while the trailing edges swept sharply forward to squared-off wing tips. Dive brakes were fitted both above and below the outer wing panels, hinging upwards and backwards, and forward and downwards respectively.

The Vengeance cockpit was in the roomy American style, but instrumentation layout was haphazard with no thought given to rational grouping for the operational task.

The controls consisted of statically and aerodynamically balanced fabric covered elevators and rudder, with controllable trim-tabs in the rudder and port elevator, while the differentially-operated metal ailerons both had electrically operated trim-tabs.

Starting up the Cyclone produced that powerful throaty growl I have always associated with that engine, which in this case drove a Hamilton Standard Hydromatic constant-speed airscrew.

The undercarriage, in spite of its laborious gyration backwards through 90 degrees to lie flat beneath the wings in “bathtub” fairings, retracted remarkably smartly, and the tail wheel partially disappeared into the tail cone. Once the ironmongery was raised and the slotted trailing edge flaps followed suit, the rate of climb became fairly respectable, with stability neutral round all three axes.

At 10,000 ft. I levelled off into the cruise at 215 mph and again stability was neutral. View dead ahead was poorish due to the slightly nose-up normal flying altitude of the aircraft, but the controls were quite well harmonised. Then up to 15,000 ft. to check the stalling characteristics, which were remarkably mild, with slight buffet some 8 mph before the nose dropped gently.

And so to the main objective — to assess the Vengeance IV as a dive bomber. On the run-in a shallow dive is usually entered to build up speed and at this stage the bomb doors are opened, so the higher their permitted operating speed the better. The Vengeance had a high restricting speed of 335 mph thus allowing great operational flexibility in that respect. In the light of the poor view ahead I found it best to approach the target keeping it in sight on either bow until it drew abeam to disappear under the wing tip, and then peel off on to it.

On entering the dive the ailerons on FD2l8 were suprisingly light and the elevator force small, but the aircraft soon started to yaw to starboard and this had to be trimmed out. Speed build up to 270 mph was quite fast, requiring constant directional trimming to avoid skid, but the rudder foot load was light because of the spring tab.

At that speed I popped the dive brakes, which opened rapidly without affecting trim. However, to open the brakes necessitated removing one’s hand from the throttle, as the control was at one’s left elbow. Also the actuating lever had to be returned to neutral after completion of the operating movement.

Terminal velocity with the dive brakes extended was 300 mph and this was also the restricting speed for operating the brakes — a significant operational advantage. Although the elevator force built up progressively after 270 mph it never reached a force that could not easily be held by pushing on the stick without using the trimmer. The yaw to starboard still required constant trimming to avoid skid. Any corrections for line on the target are made by rolling in the dive, and the Vengeance IV’s ailerons remained delightfully light and effective throughout the speed range.

In the actual dive the view over the nose was excellent for the top cowling was flat and smooth, and the front windscreen panel wide enough to accommodate a dive bombing sight without completely obliterating direct vision sectors.

The Vengeance’s natural dive angle seemed to be about 70 degrees, which feels to the pilot more like 90 degrees, and pull-out after bomb release only required a light stick force per ‘g’ so that it was easy for the pilot to black himself out. However, the aeroplane was so highly stressed there was little fear of causing structural damage.

The dive brakes were closed immediately the bombs were released and pull- out commenced, but the bomb doors were only closed on resuming level flight so as to avoid trapping the bomb displacement gear, and their action was very quick thus speeding up the vital getaway.

The whole dive bombing sequence was so efficient with the Vengeance IV that it seems incredible that items such as trimmers should be so inefficiently designed in the cockpit. There was no indicator for the aileron trimmers, that of the rudder a mere electric bulb which lit up when the trimmer was at full nose right setting, while the elevator trim position was crudely painted on a disc above the operating handle.

In my opinion the trimmers for dive bombing should be low geared wheels working in the conventional sense and placed on a level with the pilot’s seat on the left-hand side, and should have pointer indicators marked in degrees of tab setting to each side of neutral.

The internal bomb bay accommodated two 500 lb. bombs, and as overload two further 250 lb. bombs could be carried on external wing racks. This gave the Vengeance a useful punch, which delivered with high accuracy because of the aircraft’s good dive-bombing characteristics, made it a potentially powerful attack weapon.

Surprisingly the Vengeance had a reputation of being somewhat difficult to land, but one must remember that it was being operated mainly in hot and high conditions, and often from hastily prepared strips hewn out of the jungle and of limited dimensions.

Actually the approach speed of 125 mph was quite high, but a lot of speed could be killed off in the last 100 ft. of height before touch down at 105 mph, and indeed the dive brakes could be extended at 10-15 ft. off the ground to give a positive sink on to a three point landing and at the same time act as drag brakes to reduce the landing run. However, once on the ground the view ahead vanished and the pilot had to keep his wits about him to keep straight on a narrow strip on an aircraft with comparatively narrow track undercarriage. I have read a number of pilot impressions of the Vengeance I and the great majority of these are far from enthusiastic, so Vultee did a great improvement job on the Mk.IV, albeit a little late for it to reap the operational benefits.

After the Ju.87, the Vengeance IV is the best dive bomber I have flown. The irony of this aeroplane is that although it was a vast improvement on the previous Marks of the type, only the latter saw operational service, while the Mk.IV arrived at a time when the Air Staff had gone cool on dive bombing, and so it was relegated to the ignominious task of target towing. The early Vengeances earned themselves a bad reputation, and therefore it is a great pity the Vengeance IV was not given a chance to redeem that situation.

[Danny42C]

megan (#12139),

"Wow"- and again "Wow" ! (did not know of the existence of this book, but of course I have got "Wings on my Sleeve"). This is exactly what we have wanted all this time. So many hares have been set running now, that it will take me quite some time to comment on all of them, but I just want to thank you for this priceless find.

This will also be pure gold to Peter C. Smith, who, I understand, has a second edition of his "Vengeance !" (the nearest thing to the "bible" on VVs) on the stocks. I will email him about this book, and take the liberty of copying your quotation to him.

The ripples spread ! Cheers, Danny.

[MPN11]

If this Thread ever developed into “VV Unravelled”,this is the moment!

[Chugalug2]

Though we rightly hold Eric Winkle Brown in high esteem, it as a test pilot and an operational FAA pilot. What he never was, AFAIK, was an operational dive bomber pilot. We are blessed indeed to have here one of our own, and he has added greatly to our understanding of that rare and esoteric occupation. Captain Brown praises, it seems, the VV4's performance in that regard as superior to the earlier Marks. At the same time he states that its natural dive angle to be about 70 degrees. From what Danny tells us, those earlier marks had a dive angle of 90 degrees, ie truly vertical. So no throw forward; where the a/c nose points is where the released bomb will strike. Now, perhaps the error induced by the 70 degree dive is relatively slight. Perhaps it can be corrected for to some extent, but when you are in the Japanese bunker busting business anything off target is a miss.

Danny's chariot must have been a real challenge with one's view permanently obscured by that massive nose high radial, other than when it was doing the job it was designed for, ie diving vertically at the enemy. It was, as he has told us, a one trick pony, but that one trick was invaluable in Burma and I suspect would have been less successful using the Mk4. It would also appear that Captain Brown's account of the VV genesis is at variance with Peter C Smith's, but that is perhaps to quibble rather. I would though take issue with his dismissive remarks of the Mk's 1, 2, and 3. They weren't designed to be 'nice' aircraft. They were designed to be very accurate dive bombers, a job they did with great effect that won them the approval and gratitude of their customers, the men of the 14th Army.

I second Danny's thanks to Megan for the quote he posted, and also to welcome our new member, jjjackson, to our virtual crew room and to thank him for his fascinating link.

[megan]

Only too glad to have made your day Danny. I thought you may be interested also in what "Winkle" thought of the Stuka, from his "Wings of the Luftwaffe".STUKA! What other acronym that saw common usage in Europe during the first eighteen or so months of World War ll could evoke such terror in the minds of so many? To those countless European refugees jamming the roads in frantic endeavour to escape the advancing Wehrmacht, Stuka was synonymous with death and destruction wrought from the sky with terrifying precision; in military circles it was the generally-accepted sobriquet of a warplane that had greater réclame than any other — the controversial Junkers Ju 87 dive bomber.

When first committed to combat, the Stuka — a derivation of Sturzkampfflugzeug which was a term descriptive of all dive bombers — was widely believed by its advocates, not least among whom was Ernst Udet, to be the supreme weapon. The legendary reputation that it acquired during the Polish and French campaigns lent credence to claims for its invincibility so assiduously propagated. But the Stuka was not solely a highly effective precision bombing instrument which, if not capable of ‘putting a bomb in a pickle barrel’, was at least able to hit its target in a diving attack with an accuracy of less than 30 yards; it was a mass demoraliser, hurtling vertically earthwards with a banshee-like wail that had a devastating psychological effect.

From its inception, the Luftwaffe had displayed a marked predilection for the Stuka. The service was first and foremost a tool for the direct support of the ground forces and the Stuka was seen as a successor to long-range artillery. Unfortunately for the Luftwaffe, use of the Stuka presupposed control of the air; a desirable situation that was to be enjoyed increasingly rarely as the conflict progressed. Once control of the air could no longer be guaranteed, the Stuka, in the form of the Ju 87, had become an anachronism. Sturdy and tractable a warplane though this angularly ugly creation of the Junkers Flugzeugund \/Iotorenwerke undoubtedly was, it was also the natural prey of the fighter, and the sight of the Ju 87’s evil-looking shape sitting squarely in his gunsight was the dream of every fighter pilot. The career of the Iu 87 had reached its zenith over France, had entered its eclipse over the British Isles and had seen its nadir over the Soviet Union.

This was all in the past, however, by the time I finally found an opportunity to realise my ambition to fly this once much-vaunted warplane. I had gained considerable experience of dive bombing techniques with the Blackburn Skua, the Vultee Vengeance and the Douglas Dauntless. While none of these had been a hot rod in so far as level flight performance was concerned, I was convinced that all three were a cut above the Ju 87 which, inview of its reputation, must therefore have something of which I was unaware up its sleeve.

The opportunity arose on 23 August 1945 at Husum, in Schleswig Holstein, not far from the Danish border. Some of the more obsolescent ex-Luftwaffe hardware had wound up at this airfield and included in this miscellany was a solitary Ju 87D-3, presumably flown in by some pilot as the Third Reich finally crumbled. A cursory inspection of this rugged-looking juggernaut revealed the fact that all gun armament had been removed — possibly for use with ground defensive positions during the last days of fighting —and that, in general, it was in pretty good shape. There was certainly no evidence to suggest that it had ever been flown operationally, and despite the anachronistic appearance of the aircraft, I formed the opinion that it could not have come off the 'Weser’ Flugzeugbau assembly line much earlier than the previous summer.

The Ju 87D was obviously a machine of great solidity, with its heavy cranked wings, sturdily braced tailplane and massive fixed undercarriage. From its broad-bladed Junkers VS 11 constant-speed airscrew to the trim tabs on its big, square cut rudder, the Junkers dive bomber gave an impression of immensity and certainly a lot of aeroplane for one engine to pull — in this case a liquid-cooled 12-cylinder Junkers Jumo 21 ll-l which gave 1,420hp at 2,600 rpm and 1,190hp at 2,400 rpm. The cowling embodied quite an amount of armour plate to protect engine and cooler, and I was to discover liberal quantities of additional armour distributed beneath and around the two cockpits, whose occupants would have had little else going for them if they had encountered a determined fighter.

Relatively few of the WW II German aircraft could be considered beautiful in the accepted sense. But the Ju 87D was undeniably ugly in the true sense, and it was hard to believe that this sub-type of the Stuka had represented a serious attempt on the part of the aerodynamicists to clean up the basic design. Its predecessor, the Ju 87B, could certainly have been the product of an aerodynamicist’s nightmare, with its fixed spatted undercarriage and large radiator bath looking, head on, for all the world like the extended talons and gaping maw of some monstrous bird. The Ju 87D, on the other hand, lacked some of the angularity of the earlier model but was not, in my view, much of an improvement aesthetically, and its design was incredibly obsolescent. Small wonder that, apart from its service with 1 Gruppe led by the inveterate Hans-Ulrich Rudel which persisted in flying this aged warbird by daylight on the Eastern Front, the Ju 87 had spent much of its declining operational years in the nocturnal assault role with the Nachtschlachtgruppen.

Big enough and slow enough...

I clambered into the pilot's cockpit and settled down to look around, and my first impression of a very big aeroplane for one engine was reaffirmed. Following the Pilot's Notes, I placed the fuel cock in the ‘both tanks’ position, gave a few strokes of primer, switched on the fuel booster pumps, set the throttle to figure ‘1' on the quadrant, switched on both magnetos and energised the inertia starter and booster coil by pushing a handle on the lower left side for 10 seconds, then pulling out the handle until the engine fired. Warm up could be made up to 1,600 rpm on the brakes but higher revs demanded that the tail be anchored in case the aircraft nosed over. After such anchoring, the engine was run up to 2,200 rpm and 1.3 atas of boost, and then throttled back to 1.0 ata for magneto checks. After the engine checks the tail anchorage was released and the aircraft was taxied with the tailwheel lock in the free position. I found that the aircraft needed controlled braking to manoeuvre and was sensitive to any crosswind.

Before taking off it was necessary to straighten out and lock the tailwheel, switch the fuel pumps on, set the flaps to take-off position, the trims to zero and airscrew pitch lever to START. The Ju 87D-3 was fairly lightly loaded and with full power accelerated surprisingly well, unsticking at about 116km/h (72mph) in a distance of some 457m (500 yards). The climb was made at 2,300 rpm and 1.15 atas of boost, the flaps retracting mean-while until two signal lamps indicated that they had reached the zero position. Climbing speed could then be increased to 215km/h (133mph) and was eased off 10km/h (6mph) for every 1,000m (3,280ft) of altitude gained. At an altitude of 3,500m (1l,480ft) the supercharger was moved from low gear to the automatic position, but climb throughout was laborious.

Once settled down to the cruise the feeling of vulnerability became almost oppressive, probably accentuated by the high position of the pilot's seat and the good visibility through the large glasshouse canopy. The Ju 87D was big enough and slow enough to present an ideal target to the humblest tyro among fighter pilots and it rnust even have corne high in the popularity stakes with anti-aircraft gunners. Certainly its large ailerons failed to instil any liveliness into evasive manoeuvres, and although its elevators were reasonably light the aircraft was just too stable longitudinally to be very manoeuvrable. It was hardly surprising that once Soviet fighters of respectable performance began to put in an appearance in quantity over the Eastern Front the Ju 87D-equipped Stukagruppen were decimated.

There could be no doubt that the Ju 87D needed fighter cover on its way to a target area as surely as a fish needs water. But my consuming interest was to learn how this aircraft, anachronism though it undoubtedly was, performed in the area in which it had displayed such astonishing bombing accuracy and precision in its heyday. So I flew out over the North Sea to put in some dive bombing practice on the mudbanks that lie off the coast.

The check list for preparing the Ju 87D to enter the dive was as follows:

Landing flaps at cruise position
Elevator trim at cruise position
Rudder trim at cruise position
irscrew pitch set at cruise
Contact altimeter switched on
Contact altimeter set to release altitude
Supercharger set at automatic
Throttle pulled right back
Cooler flaps closed
Dive brakes opened

This last action made the aircraft nose over into the dive under the influence of the pull-out mechanism which was actuated by the opening of the dive brakes which also actuated the safety pilot control. The most difficult thing in dive bombing training is overestimating the dive angle which invariably feels much steeper than it actually is. Every dive bomber of WW ll vintage featured some form of synthetic aid to judging dive angle, and in the lu 87 this consisted simply of a series of lines of inclination marked on the starboard front side screen of the cockpit.

These marks, when aligned with the horizon, gave dive angles of 30 degrees to 90 degrees. Now a dive angle of 90 degrees is a pretty palpitating experience for it always feels as if the aircraft is over the vertical and is bunting, and all this while terra firma is rushing closer with apparently suicidal rapidity. In fact, I have rarely seen a specialist dive bomber put over 70 degrees in a dive, but the Ju 87 was a genuine 90 degrees screamer! For some indefinable reason the Ju 87D felt right standing on its nose, and the acceleration to 540km/h (335mph) was reached in about 1,370m (4,500ft). Speed thereafter crept slowly up to the absolute permitted limit of 600km/h (373mph) so that the feeling of being on a runaway roller-coaster experienced with most other dive bombers was missing.

As speed built up, the nose of the Ju 87 was used as the aiming mark. The elevators were moderately light in the initial stages of the dive but they heavied up considerably as speed built up. Any alterations in azimuth to keep the aiming mark on the target could be made accurately by use of the ailerons. These also heavied up as speed increased but always remained very effective. Use of the elevator or rudder trimmers in a dive or pull-out was strictly forbidden. During the dive it was necessary to watch the signal light on the contact altimeter, and when it came on, the knob on the control column was depressed to initiate the automatic pull-out at 6’g’, a 450-m (1,475-ft) height margin being required to complete the manoeuvre. The automatic pull-out mechanism had a high reputation for reliability, but in the event of failure the pull-out could be effected with a full-blooded pull on the control column, aided by judicious operation of the elevator trimmer to override the safety pilot control.

The sequence of events on selecting the dive brakes was most interesting. On extension of the brakes, red indicators protruded from each wing upper surface. This action automatically brought into play the safety pilot control and the dive recovery mechanism. The object of the latter was to return the elevator trimmer flaps to their normal position after release of the bomb, thus initiating pull-out from the dive which had been started by the elevator trim being brought into action to nose the aircraft over. The safety pilot control was a restriction introduced into the control column movement whereby this was limited by means of hydraulic pressure to a pull of only 5 degrees from the neutral position, thus obviating excessive g loads in pulling-out. In an emergency this restriction could be overridden to give a 13 degrees movement. Once the aircraft had its nose safely pointed above the horizon from the pull-out, the dive brakes were retracted, the airscrew pitch set to take-off/climb and the throttle opened up to 1.15 atas of boost, although in conditions of enemy flak it was recommended that the full 1.35 atas be used. The radiator flaps were then opened.

When I finally turned for Schleswig, to \/vhere 1 was supposed to deliver the Ju 87D-3, I must confess that I had had a more enjoyable hour's dive bombing practice than I had ever experienced with any other aircraft of this specialist type. Somehow the Ju 87D did not appear to find its natural element until it was diving steeply. it seemed quite normal to stand this aircraft on its nose in a vertical dive because its acceleration had none of that uncontrollable runaway feeling associated with a 90 degree inclination in an aircraft like the Skua. Obviously, the fixed undercarriage and the large-span dive brakes of the Junkers were a highly effective drag combination.

However, the Ju 87D also had a reputation for standing on its nose in an entirely different context — during a landing! Although a somewhat ponderous aircraft, it could carry out all normal aerobatics, and it was easy and fairly pleasant to fly, but a three-point landing was desirable every time. A structural weakness in the undercarriage could lead to failure of the upper mainwheel fork and a subsequent collapse of the wheel assembly, particularly on a rough airfield surface. The leg could collapse forward or backward, and in the latter case there was a grave danger of the aircraft turning over on its back with somewhat dire results for the crew which could expect little protection from the cockpit canopy. Another weak point was the tailwheel, and the Pilot's Notes gave warning that unless a three-point landing was achieved there was danger of tailwheel damage.

Duly warned, I set about the simple preparations for landing at Schleswig which were to reduce speed to about 200km/h (1 25mph), select flaps down on the crosswind leg at approximately 180km/h (112mph), lock tailwheel, set airscrew pitch to fully fine and approach at 150km/h (93mph), progressively reducing to 120km/h (75mph) at hold-off. View for landing was excellent, the brakes proved powerful and could be applied almost immediately after a three-pointer, and the landing run was very short indeed. The Ju 87D could, I understand, be landed with full bombload or, in an emergency, with the dive brakes extended, although to three-point the aircraft in the latter circumstances apparently required a 27-kg (60-lb) pull on the control column to overcome the safety pilot control.

The Ju 87 will always be associated with the victorious German blitzkrieg tactics employed in Poland and France during the first year of WW ll; campaigns that fulfilled the most sanguine expectations of the Stuka’s protagonists. lts first encounter with determined tighter opposition was during the Battle of Britain. This forced the withdrawal of the Ju 87-equipped Stukagruppen frorn the Cherbourg area to the Pas de Calais where they were to sit out the final phases of that epic conflict, pricked the Ju 87's bubble of success and revealed the fact that this aircraft had become an anachronism in the context of fighting in the West. But the day of the Stuka was far from over, for the Ju 87 was to enjoy further successes wherever the Luftwaffe succeeded in maintaining a measure of mastery in the air, the Stukagruppen ensuring that even the Soviet campaign initially proved a repetition of the debacle suffered by the French.

The Ju 87 was, nevertheless, a poorly armed, somewhat cumbersome and highly vulnerable aircraft by any standard. Yet it was the mount that carried the most highly-decorated Knight's Cross winner of the war - Hans-Ulrich Rudel who flew no fewer than 2,530 sorties and claimed the destruction of 519 tanks! That Rudel should have survived the war that he fought almost exclusively in this obsolescent Junkers design must speak volumes not only for his piloting skill but also for the capabilities of his rear gunner, who also won the Ritterkreuz. It will always remain a mystery to me how these stalwarts escaped destruction if there were any enemy fighter pilots of even mediocre skill in the same area of sky as their Ju 87. There is no gainsaying the fact, however, that shortcomings galore though the Junkers dive bomber undoubtedly possessed, it gave resolute service from 0426 hours on l September 1939, when three Ju 87Bs of 3.Staffel of Stuka-geschwader 1 took-off from Elbing for the first bombing sortie of WW ll, until the closing months of the war when the Ju 87D soldiered on with several Nachtschlachtgruppen and its tank-busting derivative, the Ju 87G, fought on with the specialized anti-tank Staffein.

[Geriaviator]

Like a long-burning fire on the brink of extinction, this matchless thread has once again burst into brightness! Thanks to those who discovered our new content, which show how the Vengeance's poor reputation came about. As Chugalug says, we are fortunate in having our senior pilot whose brilliant memory recalls every detail of what the aircraft was like to fly and how the early versions were designed to achieve pinpoint accuracy -- and nothing else. As Danny says in his book, the Vengeance was a one-trick pony, but it performed its trick very well indeed.

Ah yes ... Danny's e-book, In with a Vengeance. Chapter 10 gives an enthralling account of Danny's first attack, following his squadron in vertical dives upon a Japanese HQ at Akyab. And Chapter 15 sums up the Vengeance in attack (excellent, a guided missile with guidance system hopefully extracted half a mile above target) and defence (terrifyingly little). We have mailed dozens of copies round the world but there's plenty left in our electronic bookstore. If you want one, send me, Geriaviator, a PM giving your email address.

[Danny42C]

megan (#12143),

Pelion piled on Ossa ! Mercy, dear Sir, for the Lord's sake ! Now I have another enormous screed to fillet and comment on. How is Volume II of my memoir "Danny and the Cold War" ever going to get written at this rate ! Yet there is another (harder) way for anybody interested - go to the source, it is all on this Thread already.

Do what reefrat (#12129) has done (and Congratulations to him for Sticking At It !) My weary tale starts on P.114 of this Thread (#2262) - I've checked, and it is still there; but Pprune has done strange things with Pages and Post numbers in the past (just to keep us on our toes ?) and anything can happen.

"The Longest Journey starts with a Single Step", so watch this space !

Danny.

[Danny42C]

This is the best I can do so far with megan's first tranche of Capt. Brown's report.
Attributions; [PCS] Peter C. Smith ("Vengeance!"); [PK] Personal Knowledge] ; [H] Hearsay - I was told.
...Although of American origin, the Vultee Vengeance owed its existence to the British. It happened like this. The RAF’s Air Staff had been so impressed with the blitzkrieg effectiveness of the Stuka dive bombers, that it decided it must go into the dive-bombing business, and so in 1940 the British Purchasing Commission initially ordered 400 of Vultee’s dive bomber design, the V-72 or Vengeance...
Not exactly. The French were the first "Me, toos" after seeing what the Stuka could do, and they ordered the first Vultee V-72 (A-31). Then France collapsed sand Vultee were left with a production line and no customer. [PCS] They were very glad indeed when we appeared to take over the French contract ! (at $63,000 each) [PCS]
...Most of these early Mk.I and II aircraft went to the Royal Australian and Indian Air Forces, and the few that came to Britain were primarily for performance and handling assessment...
No, the first four squadrons to receive the VVs in India in late 1942 were the RAF 45, 82, 84 and 110. These were old Blenheim squadrons that had come out to India early in that year, and then had their aircraft taken off them and flown back to the M.E. [H]

These operated from early 1943, it was later decided to form two IAF VV Squadrons (7 and 8). There were not enough trained IAF air or groundcrews to man both, so 8 was formed as a "mixed" IAF/RAF (one Flight of each) Squadron and operated from October 1943. 7 was all IAF, and did not go into action till March 1944. [PK]

Don't know anything about those supplied to Britain and the RAAF. On the onset of the 1944 Monsoon (say May), the RAF India Command decision was taken to stop all further VV operations in Burma (I believe the American Commanding General in New Guinea at the same time ordered all RAAF VV ops to cease, but would like confirmation of this. [H]

The IAF Sqns would convert onto Spitfire XIVs and the RAF onto Mosquitoes, at least that was the idea, but it didn't quite work out like that for the RAF Sqdns. They effectively gave up their numbers abd traditions to the new influx of Mosquito crews and aircraft (when their aircraft stopped falling apart in midair). The "Old Guard" of experienced VV crews and their aircraft were still in India, and could've done a further "dry season's" work for the 14th Army (which was pushing the Jap back on all fronts) from October 1944 to May 1945. But it was not to be. Instead we were frittered away on odd jobs like Calibration and my Special Duty Flight, until the end in August 1945. [Pk]
...The USAAF purchased 600 Mk.IAs, Mk.IIs and Mk.IIIs for Lend-Lease and also retained some Mk.IIs for their own operation. A decision to continue purchasing V-72s for Lend-Lease led to some redesign. The zero wing incidence was changed to reduce the aircraft’s nose-up ? flight characteristics, and the armament changes saw 0.50 in. guns replace the four 0.30 in.wing guns, and a single 0.50 in. replace the two 0.30 in. guns in the rear cockpit. This was designated the A-35A, and 99 were built for the USAAF...
The RAF designated this the Mk.IV Vengeance: it did not come into service until war's end. Then I believe RAF 110 Sqdn took some to Takoradi (W.Africa) for ant1-malaria spray trials in 1946 (using the same type of spray tanks that we'd used for liquid mustard spraying from Cannanore the year before). [H]
...The signifcance of the different Marks of Vengeance were that the Mk.I was built by Northrop on direct British contract, the Mk.IA by Northrop on USAAF contract, the MK.II by Vultee on direct British contract, the Mk.III by Vultee on USAAF contract.

Further modifications were introduced in the RAF Vengeance IV and USAAF A-35B. Wing armament was increased to six guns, the bomb load doubled to 2,000 lb...(/QUOTE]
No, not "doubled" - the Mk.I and II load was 1,500 lb.
[QUOTE]...and a more powerful version of the Wright Cyclone installed...
Even so, 2,000 lb ? You try it mate, I'll just watch.
...A simplified fuel system was fitted, together with spring tabs to all control surfaces.

We received Vengeance IV FD2l8 at RAE Farnborough in August 1944 for comparison with other types of dive-bomber we were testing, and also to assess the effects of the design improvements over the Mk.I, which had four major faults, namely poor take-off, bad view in normal flying attitude, a complex fuel system, and heavy out-of-trim rudder foot loads in the dive.

My first impression of the Vengeance was that it was big for a single-engined aeroplane...
Not of the the period, the Grumman Avenger and others was much the same weight and size ...and its mid-wing had a most unusual planform. The wing at centre section had marked sweepback on the leading edges, while the trailing edges were straight. The outer wing panels, which were set at a slight dihedral angle, had straight leading edges, while the trailing edges swept sharply forward to squared-off wing tips. Dive brakes were fitted both above and below the outer wing panels, hinging upwards and backwards, and forward and downwards respectively...
They were mechanically linked, so that the airflow effect was neutral
...The Vengeance cockpit was in the roomy American style, but instrumentation layout was haphazard with no thought given to rational grouping for the operational task...
The term I heard was: "A pawnbroker's shop window" !
...The controls consisted of statically and aerodynamically balanced fabric covered elevators and rudder, with controllable trim-tabs in the rudder and port elevator, while the differentially-operated metal ailerons both had electrically operated trim-tabs.

Starting up the Cyclone produced that powerful throaty growl I have always associated with that engine, which in this case drove a Hamilton Standard Hydromatic constant-speed airscrew...
Growl ? Sounded more like bolts being shaken in a 40-gallon drum !
...The undercarriage, in spite of its laborious gyration backwards through 90 degrees to lie ?at beneath the wings in “bathtub” fairings, retracted remarkably smartly, and the tail wheel partially disappeared into the tail cone...
Why a retractable tail wheel on an aircraft that above all others had no need for such a thing ? Extended, it was lockable fore-and aft.
...Once the ironmongery was raised and the slotted trailing edge flaps followed suit, the rate of climb became fairly respectable, with stability neutral round all three axes

At 10,000 ft. I levelled off into the cruise at 215 mph and again stability was neutral. View dead ahead was poorish due to the slightly nose-up normal ?ying altitude of the aircraft, but the controls were quite well harmonised. Then up to 15,000 ft. to check the stalling characteristics, which were remarkably mild, with slight buffet some 8 mph before the nose dropped gently.

And so to the main objective — to assess the Vengeance IV as a dive bomber. On the run-in a shallow dive is usually entered to build up speed and at this stage the bomb doors are opened, so the higher their permitted operating speed the better. The Vengeance had a high restricting speed of 335 mph thus allowing great operational ?flexibility in that respect. In the light of the poor view ahead I found it best to approach the target keeping it in sight on either bow until it drew abeam to disappear under the wing tip, and then peel off on to it.

On entering the dive the ailerons on FD2l8 were suprisingly light and the elevator force small, but the aircraft soon started to yaw to starboard and this had to be trimmed out. Speed build up to 270 mph was quite fast, requiring constant directional trimming to avoid skid, but the rudder foot load was light because of the spring tab.

At that speed I popped the dive brakes, which opened rapidly without affecting trim. However, to open the brakes necessitated removing one’s hand from the throttle, as the control was at one’s left elbow. Also the actuating lever had to be returned to neutral after completion of the operating movement.

Terminal velocity with the dive brakes extended was 300 mph and this was also the restricting speed for operating the brakes — a significant operational advantage. Although the elevator force built up progressively after 270 mph it never reached a force that could not easily be held by pushing on the stick without using the trimmer. The yaw to starboard still required constant trimming to avoid skid. Any corrections for line on the target are made by rolling in the dive, and the Vengeance IV’s ailerons remained delightfully light and effective throughout the speed range.

In the actual dive the view over the nose was excellent for the top cowling was flat and smooth, and the front windscreen panel wide enough to accommodate a dive bombing sight without completely obliterating direct vision sectors.

The Vengeance’s natural dive angle seemed to be about 70 degrees, which feels to the pilot more like 90 degrees, and pull-out after bomb release only required a light stick force per ‘g’ so that it was easy for the pilot to black himself out. However, the aeroplane was so highly stressed there was little fear of causing structural damage.

The dive brakes were closed immediately the bombs were released and pull- out commenced, but the bomb doors were only closed on resuming level ?ight so as to avoid trapping the bomb displacement gear, and their action was very quick thus speeding up the vital getaway.

The whole dive bombing sequence was so efficient with the Vengeance IV that it seems incredible that items such as trimmers should be so inef?ciently designed in the cockpit. There was no indicator for the aileron trimmers, that of the rudder a mere electric bulb which lit up when the trimmer was at full nose right setting, while the elevator trim position was crudely painted on a disc above the operating handle.

In my opinion the trimmers for dive bombing should be low geared wheels working in the conventional sense and placed on a level with the pilot’s seat on the left-hand side, and should have pointer indicators marked in degrees of tab setting to each side of neutral.

The internal bomb bay accommodated two 500 lb. bombs, and as overload two further 250 lb. bombs could be carried on external wing racks. This gave the Vengeance a useful punch, which delivered with high accuracy because of the aircraft’s good dive-bombing characteristics, made it a potentially powerful attack weapon.

Surprisingly the Vengeance had a reputation of being somewhat difficult to land, but one must remember that it was being operated mainly in hot and high conditions, and often from hastily prepared strips hewn out of the jungle and of limited dimensions.

Actually the approach speed of 125 mph was quite high, but a lot of speed could be killed off in the last 100 ft. of height before touch down at 105 mph, and indeed the dive brakes could be extended at 10-15 ft. off the ground to give a positive sink on to a three point landing and at the same time act as drag brakes to reduce the landing run...
Never even saw the thing, but would not try that ! "Sink" was never a problem with Mks I-III - it would do that at the drop of a hat.
...However, once on the ground the view ahead vanished and the pilot had to keep his wits about him to keep straight on a narrow strip on an aircraft with comparatively narrow track undercarriage. I have read a number of pilot impressions of the Vengeance I and the great majority of these are far from enthusiastic, so Vultee did a great improvement job on the Mk.IV, albeit a little late for it to reap the operational benefits..
Too late, in fact - it never did anything useful (for us) except tow targets. [PCS] says the Free French and Brazil got some, don't think they had much joy with them.
...After the Ju.87, the Vengeance IV is the best dive bomber I have flown. The irony of this aeroplane is that although it was a vast improvement on the previous Marks of the type... We must agree to differ on this, Sir - maybe a better aircraft (I cannot think of a worse), but a worse dive bomber as well.
...only the latter saw operational service, while the Mk.IV arrived at a time when the Air Staff had gone cool on dive bombing, and so it was relegated to the ignominious task of target towing. The early Vengeances earned themselves a bad reputation...
Give a dog a bad name and hang him ! Ask the troops of the 14th Army - they were happy enough with us ! And there is always the simple fact that you fight a war with what you've got - not with what you would like to have !
...and therefore it is a great pity the Vengeance IV was not given a chance to redeem that situation...
Don't think it would. The "situation" didn't need redeeming. The I and II can stand on their record. The III (exactly the same thing) came in after it was all over. All water under the bridge now.

Danny.

[MPN11]

Dear Danny42C, I will say this in public ... because it deserves to be said [probably again] following that last post.

You may be the oldest, tottering, member of this Forum. Indeed, you may even secretly do Cabaret acts at local "Retirement Homes", for all we know. Or be a cyberspace clone inserted by the Chinese, although I doubt that!

But ... your recall, attention to detail, analysis and indeed humour, is utterly inspiring and enthralling.

Bless you, Danny, for being here ... you remind me, and I assume others, that there was a better World out there where men got sweaty, got on with the job in hand, and lived and died by their skill. And then, amazingly, remembered [most of] it!! You are a bloody STAR!

Have a cyber-hug, if that's permitted in the cyber-crewroom without causing embarrassment?

[Chugalug2]

Hear, hear, MPN11. You speak for us all, and very eloquently too, if I may say.

Danny, on the subject of the VV I'll take your word any day of the week, even against such an oracle as Winkle Brown. He did of course tell of his interviewing Herman Goering before his trial at Nuremburg, and agreed with him that the Battle of Britain was merely a draw! Which all goes to show that if you deviate from what you know to what you believe then you are as likely to develop feet of clay as anyone else.

[Danny42C]

MPN11 and Chugalug,

Please - you're turning me crimson with embarrassment with all this undeserved praise ! Knock it off ! (and we didn't go round hugging ourselves like great Jessies in my day, if you don't mind). Same again ? - why, thankee, kind sir - that'll do nicely!
...agreed with him that the Battle of Britain was merely a draw!...
In military terms (losses on both sides), probably correct - a score draw. But I take your point, Chugalug. However, it was one of those draws that is far more advantageous to one side than another. Hitler had to destroy the RAF before his planned "Sealion" could be launched with any hope of success .... He failed .... We had to keep the RAF in being as the last-ditch defence of Britain .... We succeeded.

"Hitler knows", growled Churchill, "that he must crush us in these islands or lose the War". He did not crush us and he did lose the war - and "the rest is history".

Now as to the second tranche of megan's Captain Brown assessment of the Ju-87, Brown has the advantage of me here - he flew the thing and I did not. "Whereof you know nothing", said Wittengstein, "thereof should you be silent". But I'll have a go ....

Danny.

[MPN11]

MPN11 passes Danny42C a very large tot by way of apology ;)

[Chugalug2]

Duly chastised after standing on the Chief Pilot's thoroughly worn out carpet. You make the point entirely, Danny. Goering had to neutralise Fighter Command for Hitler's Sea Lion to be possible and failed (he also lost so many aircraft in the battle that it compromised the Russian Campaign to boot). Goering was thus being somewhat disingenuous. Was Winkle also?

As to the Ju87, we can now all become expert in its operation (if only vicariously) thanks to that South American river lot:-

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Junkers-Manual-Owners-Workshop-Manuals/dp/1785211412/ref=pd_rhf_ee_s_cp_0_2?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=1785211412&pd_rd_r=6MPZ2C9HR5EHSJQD545N&pd_rd_w=ABrrF&pd_rd_wg=ETetQ&psc=1&refRID=6MPZ2C9HR5EHSJQD545N

[MPN11]

There was, of course, little chance of the VV surviving in the BofB ... it would have suffered the same fate as the Ju-87. Post D-Day it would have been useful, especially in the Falaise Gap, but by then we had Typhoon offering greater capabilities against precision ground targets. As Danny noted, ‘Cometh the hour, cometh the man”, and Burma was the VV’s forte.

But just like the 14th Army, it was never in the limelight ... just slogging away seemingly unloved and unregarded. However, I’m sure a lot of 14th Army were very glad Danny and his colleagues were there.

BTW, very clever of Haines switching to these aircraft ‘manuals’. There’s a limited market for DIY car maintenance these days, when everything seems to involve/need computery!

[FantomZorbin]

… or a ferret with an HNC in engineering! :(

[Chugalug2]

Not only aircraft MPN, as can be seen further down the Ju87 page; tanks, ships, locos, 88mm guns, war campaigns, etc. They even do an Owners Manual for the Starship Enterprise, with technical details of the cardboard bridge modules no doubt! Interesting comment in the "top critical review" about the Ju 87 Kanonenvogel, that it could only take out the T 34's one at a time, whereas a fleet of long range strategic bombers could instead have taken out the very factories churning them out.

BTW, anyone thinking of getting this book (or indeed any of the others), might consider The Works instead. For the same price they deliver free with click and collect if you have a nearby branch (they give TCB/Quidco cashback too!).

[Danny42C]

Daughter Mary bought me the Haines Manual for "Concorde" a year or so ago. A bit of a change from a Vultee Vengeance (don't think they've a Manual for that !)

[Reverserbucket]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/670x488/ju87_cf034834f81930c12e4f8d11aa24295e1aa6ce4d.jpg

Martuba - 1942

[ian16th]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/670x488/clipboard01_e53a443ba037f4db8e267c517e538dc0feb09539.jpg

[Danny42C]

reverserbucket and ian16th,

Did not think anything could be uglier than a Vultee "Vengeance" - but now see I was wrong !

[Chugalug2]

I think that pic is dying for a caption, don't you Danny?

[Flap62]

I am intrigued as to how targeting and aiming was done in a 90deg dive. As Winkle says you can correct for azimuth errors in a 70deg dive by ailerons but surely that’s not available in a pure vertical dive? When you tip in you’re either directly above the target (unlikely) or you have to make a correction leading to a less than purely vertical dive. Can someone explain please?

[Danny42C]

Chugalug,

"Never mind, its Mother loves it (Ahhhhh)" ?

Flap62,

No problem - you just use aileron to "weathercock" the VV until the target is at 12 o'clock again on your yellow line sight, then slightly lift nose end of line onto it. Means you are probably diving at 89 degrees now, but what the heck !

Bonus: also means the "box" will pull out every which way at the bottom, which makes it difficult for any A.A. there may be around.

Danny.

[Chugalug2]

Ha ha, nice one Danny! How about "undercarriage lever a bit stiff was it, Sir?". Better watch out though or we'll be getting a pink frightener from the Captions Comp thread!

[ricardian]

Danny, do you recognise any of this radio gear that was fitted into Spitfires?
Spitfire radio spares (http://spitfirespares.co.uk/radio.html)

[Danny42C]

ricardian (#12163),

All I know about radios is the on-off button. In the Spitfires and Hurricanes I flew in 1942, we had a TR9 (HF), but it was not much good and we didn't use it at all. There were far too many aircraft in circuit to attempt any ATC - it was "every man for himself". In the Spitfire it lived in a top fuselage compartment behind my head.

In the postwar Mk.XVIs, we had an eight-button VHF job. Don't know what TR it was.

Danny.

[Danny42C]

Megan,

Thanks for your excerpts from Capt. Brown's "Wings of the Luftwaffe". This is what I have to add to it:
...STUKA! What other acronym that saw common usage in Europe during the first eighteen or so months of World War ll could evoke such terror in the minds of so many? To those countless European refugees jamming the roads in frantic endeavour to escape the advancing Wehrmacht Stuka was synonymous with death and destruction wrought from the sky with terrifying precision...
Refugees were, I believe, often cleared from roads onto the fields (to allow the German armour to get through) by "dummy" dives without bombing or gunfire:
having eight tons or so of screaming Stuka coming down at you (and with sirens (Jericho-Trompete") to make an even more fearsome row) would make the stoutest heart quail.
...it was a mass demoraliser, hurtling vertically earthwards with a banshee-like wail that had a devastating psychological effect...
And blowing holes in roads that you intend to use yourself is not very clever
. ...The service was first and foremost a tool for the direct support of the ground forces and the Stuka was seen as a successor to long-range artillery...
Exactly our experience in Burma. "ASC" ("Army Support, Close") appears time after time in our logs. It was the most satisfying type of operation, for you were precision-bombing Japanese military positions marked exactly (with mortar smoke bombs) by the Army: there was little chance of any "collateral mage", which was in other targets more than likely.
...Unfortunately for the Luftwaffe, use of the Stuka presupposed control of the air; a desirable situation that was to be enjoyed increasingly rarely as the conflict progressed. Once control of the air could no longer be guaranteed, the Stuka, in the form of the Ju 87, had become an anachronism... it was also the natural prey of the fighter...
As Wiki puts it: "Although sturdy, accurate, and very effective against ground targets, the Stuka was vulnerable to contemporary fighter aircraft, like many other dive bombers of the war". It had to be made strong, to resist the stresses of the dive and pull-out: strong means heavy, so you end with a thing too clumsy to fight, and too slow to run away.

We were "in the same boat", but only to an extent. The Jap armies in Burma were supported by a small number of "Oscars" (Nakajima Ki-43). These very useful weapons could at any time have been scrambled to intercept our "boxes" of six VVs (the standard tactical formation). We did "Fighter Affiliation" exercises with Hurricanes, to determine the feasibility of our official "stick together and fight them off" defensive policy. But the Hurricane pilots all laughed at our "evasive action": they had no difficulty in keeping their gun sights on us throughout the elephantine turns of a "box" of VVs.

The whole idea was suicidal: a properly handled pair of "Oscars" would easily take out all six VVs (if they stayed together) with their aimed 2x0.50s each versus our rear 2x0.303s each, on held held mountings, used by Navs who'd never fired a shot or AGs who had had no live practice since they left their Blenheim turrets in early '42. Bullets would be sprayed all over the sky, but the only thing we were likely to hit was our own tails, for there was nothing to stop that happening.

But the feared attack never happened - and to this day we don't know why. It would seem that the "Oscars" had been supplied for ineffective "hit and run" attacks on our camps, roads and airstrips - and nothing else. What the Oscars thought (when they saw us sailing overhead) is not recorded. And of course the possibility hung over our heads as a "Sword of Damocles" on every take-off: ("is this going to be the day ?") Fighter escorts ? Very rarely had them, and in any case Hurricanes would've had their work cut out defending themselves, never mind us !
...The check list for preparing the Ju 87D to enter the dive was as follows:

Landing flaps at cruise position
Elevator trim at cruise position
Rudder trim at cruise position
Airscrew pitch set at cruise
Contact altimeter switched on
Contact altimeter set to release altitude
Supercharger set at automatic
Throttle pulled right back *
Cooler flaps closed
Dive brakes opened...

Here is the comparable checklist for a VV:

...All Trims Neutral
___Bomb doors Open
___[6] Bomb switches On
___All tank pumps On
___Mixture full Rich
___"Blower" Low
___Throttle 1/3 Open *
___2300 rpm on Prop
___Gills Shut
___Harness Tight
___Canopy Closed...
Note *: To avoid our (aircooled) radial engines suffering "Thermal Shock" in descent. The Stuka's liquid cooled Junkers Jumo would not be affected. As the VV always reached terminal velocity in the dive (ca 300 mph), it did not matter how much power was left on (and it was a good idea to have a nice warm engine to rely on when departing the scene of the crime !)
...This last action made the aircraft nose over into the dive under the influence of the pull-out mechanism which was actuated by the opening of the dive brakes which also actuated the safety pilot control...
What exactly was this "pull-out mechanism.....safety pilot control ?
...The most difficult thing in dive bombing training is overestimating the dive angle which invariably feels much steeper than it actually is. Every dive bomber of WW ll vintage featured some form of synthetic aid to judging dive angle...
The VV didn't.
...and in the lu 87 this consisted simply of a series of lines of inclination marked on the starboard front side screen of the cockpit.
These marks, when aligned with the horizon, gave dive angles of 30 degrees to 90 degrees. Now a dive angle of 90 degrees is a pretty palpitating experience...
Not really, you keep busy, holding the nose on target and keeping a hawk-like eye on your altimeter, and it's only for 20 seconds or so
...For some indefinable reason the Ju 87D felt right standing on its nose...
So did the VV
...and the acceleration to 540km/h (335mph) was reached in about 1,370m (4,500ft). Speed thereafter crept slowly up to the absolute permitted limit of 600km/h (373mph) so that the feeling of being on a runaway roller-coaster experienced with most other dive bombers was missing...
A VV always felt (and was) under perfect control in the dive, as the big dive brakes held it in position like a vice.
...As speed built up, the nose of the Ju 87 was used as the aiming mark...
We had a one-inch yellow line painted from top of cowling back to mid-point of base of screen.
...Any alterations in azimuth to keep the aiming mark on the target could be made accurately by use of the ailerons...

[See #12161]

...During the dive it was necessary to watch the signal light on the contact altimeter, and when it came on, the knob on the control column was depressed to initiate the automatic pull-out at 6’g’, a 450-m (1,475-ft) height margin being required to complete the manoeuvre. The automatic pull-out mechanism had a high reputation for reliability, but in the event of failure the pull-out could be effected with a full-blooded pull on the control column, aided by judicious operation of the elevator trimmer to override the safety pilot control...

Refer to Wiki "Stuka" ("Diving Procedure"). But how did this "automatic pull-out" actually work ? ("The automatic pull-out was not liked by all pilots"). Not surprised ! (don't like the idea much myself).

Reminds me that somewhere on Thread is an "Oh, dear !" tale from a few days before the 1939 invasion of Poland. Seems the Luftwaffe had laid on a "Stuka" air display (to soften up the Poles ?) 20 Stukas were to make a mass attack on target. But at the last moment some low cloud had drifted in to cover it.

The Show Must Go On - In defiance of the dive-bombing "must" that: "the dog must see the rabbit", they bombed regardless .... The score was: 13 Stukas and 26 crew written off. What Goering (and later Hitler) said about it when they heard is not recorded. The Poles were much amused.

...The sequence of events on selecting the dive brakes was most interesting. On extension of the brakes, red indicators protruded from each wing upper surface. This action automatically brought into play the safety pilot control and the dive recovery mechanism. The object of the latter was to return the elevator trimmer flaps to their normal position after release of the bomb, thus initiating pull-out from the dive which had been started by the elevator trim being brought into action to nose the aircraft over. The safety pilot control was a restriction introduced into the control column movement whereby this was limited by means of hydraulic pressure to a pull of only 5 degrees from the neutral position, thus obviating excessive g loads in pulling-out. In an emergency this restriction could be overridden to give a 13 degrees movement. Once the aircraft had its nose safely pointed above the horizon from the pull-out, the dive brakes were retracted, the airscrew pitch set to take-off/climb and the throttle opened up to 1.15 atas of boost, although in conditions of enemy flak it was recommended that the full 1.35 atas be used. The radiator flaps were then opened...
"Interesting" is not the word for it !" Our procedure was much simpler: when your altimeter needle passes 3,500 ft agl (3,000 ft true as altimeter lags in dive), press bomb release button (on throttle knob) and pull like Hell ! Pulling to "grey-out" should see you level at 1,000 ft - but of course, over any defended target, you'll be right down in the treetops ASAP. 1,000 ft sounds a fairly comfortable margin. but as you were coming down at 400 ft/sec (= 300 mph), you had 2½ secs "wriggle room". Not a lot ! [Full description of a VV dive in Page 133 #2058 this Thread]
...When I finally turned for Schleswig, to where 1 was supposed to deliver the Ju 87D-3, I must confess that I had had a more enjoyable hour's dive bombing practice than I had ever experienced with any other aircraft of this specialist type. Somehow the Ju 87D did not appear to find its natural element until it was diving steeply. it seemed quite normal to stand this aircraft on its nose in a vertical dive because its acceleration had none of that uncontrollable runaway feeling associated with a 90 degree inclination in an aircraft like the Skua. Obviously, the fixed undercarriage and the large-span dive brakes of the Junkers were a highly effective drag combination...
The dive brakes of the VV did the same job fine.
...Duly warned, I set about the simple preparations for landing at Schleswig which were to reduce speed to about 200km/h (125mph), select flaps down on the crosswind leg at approximately 180km/h (112mph), lock tailwheel...
We didn't bother, left it unlocked all the time, lock not needed.
...set airscrew pitch to fully fine and approach at 150km/h (93mph), progressively reducing to 120km/h (75mph) at hold-off. View for landing was excellent, the brakes proved powerful and could be applied almost immediately after a three-pointer, and the landing run was very short indeed. The Ju 87D could, I understand, be landed with full bombload or, in an emergency, with the dive brakes extended...
Not a VV ! With dive brakes out in the air it went into "brick" mode !
...although to three-point the aircraft in the latter circumstances apparently required a 27-kg (60-lb) pull on the control column to overcome the safety pilot control...
Here's this "safety pilot control" again. What was it ?

As I noted for the VV: "It did the State some service - and they know't". And that's all, folks. (The last surviving (non-flying) VV is in the Camden Museum, Narellan, Sydney). Unregarded at the time, and completely forgotten now.

Thanks, megan, for giving me this to chew on.

Danny.

[Danny42C]

These look nicer, Chugalug: [WIKI}
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Junkers_Ju_87Ds_in_flight_Oct_1943.jpg/300px-Junkers_Ju_87Ds_in_flight_Oct_1943.jpg
Danny,

[Chugalug2]

Indeed they do, Danny. It looks as though they've cleared those many deferred defects from the F700! Can't say I've ever thought of the Stuka as anything other than the epitome of Nazi nastiness. Its use against undefended civilians be they in Warsaw or fleeing ahead of the Wehrmacht in Belgium or France does not lend itself to much admiration. Admittedly it's military utility in Russia proved of some use in that doomed adventure. It was perhaps though most useful as a propaganda tool for the good Doctor in his countless newsreels, with its Jericho trumpets shrieking loudly. Ironic that after the early successes of Blitzkrieg it still carried on until the bitter end. One has to admire the courage of its crews in doing so given its sitting duck vulnerability.

It seems amazing now that the cream of the Luftwaffe flight schools did not go to the 109 but to the Stuka, for it was a vital part of the triumvirate that was Blitzkrieg, along with the Panzer and the Radio net. If he'd come as he'd promised us he would then he could have won his war and his lebensraum, but Blitzkrieg stumbled at the Channel coast and the Stuka met its nemesis.

Not a nice aeroplane and not a nice concept in my view, with all due respect to Captain Brown. In contrast the VV was bought in a hurry and their Airships regretted it immediately. Banished to India along with all the other obsolete kit, it found its natural hunting ground in Burma. As Danny says, it should have been allowed to go on doing its excellent work there until the drawing of stumps, but their Airships acted in haste again. One wonders sometimes how we ever prevailed!

[megan]

Here's this "safety pilot control" again. What was it ? Might answer your question Danny. We approached our target at an altitude of 5000 meters, extended the hydraulic speed brakes shortly before the target, then making the target move into the bottom window in the cockpit below our feet. When it disappeared at the back edge, we turned the plane down at a dive angle of 70 degrees. With the gas shut off, the plane quickly gained speed by its own weight, whilst the diving brakes kept it at a steady pace of 450 kms/hr. We aimed through a reflector sight keeping the whole plane in the center of the target and allowing for velocity and direction of the wind, with the aid of the right lead angles. A continuously adjustable red marking arrow was mounted on the altimeter, set to local altitude above mean sea level, whereby the required bomb releasing altitude could be set. When passing that altitude in the dive, a loud and clear horn signal was sounded, warning the pilot to press the bomb releasing button on the control stick and to pull out the plane. By pressing the releasing button, we also automatically actuated the hydraulic recovery device which aided the pilot, under the heavy G-load encountered in steep dive recoveries, in pulling out of the dive. The normal bomb releasing altitude was close to 700 meters. Experienced pilots would also venture down to 500 meters in order to increase the bombing accuracy. This, however, was the absolute minimum pulling out radius to clear the ground in time. Below that there was no hope left as shown by the sadly remembered Stuka disaster of Neuhammer where a practically complete JU-87 Staffel crashed into the ground because of late recovery.

Conversations with a Stuka Pilot Paul-Werner Hozzel (http://www.allworldwars.com/Conversations-with-a-Stuka-Pilot-Paul-Werner-Hozzel.html)

[Union Jack]

Megan,

Thanks, megan, for giving me this to chew on.

Danny.

"Chew" as in "taste, savour, chew 30 times, reflect on taste, and digest" I'd say, judging by your incredibly detailed response and recollection!

Jack

[Danny42C]

megan (#12168),

How many more rabbits are you going to pull out of the hat ? What a Link ! - What a find ! Now we have our own live (?) Stuka pilot to give us all the gen. Thanks a million, megan - and so say all of us.

Needless to say immediately downloaded (is that right word?) the lot onto a NotePad file and my Flash Drive to savour at my leisure. Would think I am not the only one to do so.

EDIT: Sadly Brig-Gen Hozzel died 1997 [Wikipedia]

[megan]

A few items gleaned from "Flight"magazines.The Ju 87 can be fitted with a pull-out device which is housed in the tailplane and works in conjunction with the dive-brakes as part of the hydraulic system. When the dive-brakes are operated a tab on the elevator is deflected so that the aircraft automatically goes into a dive and the pilot is relieved of the forces which would otherwise have to be applied to keep the nose down. The bombs are released by pressing a button on the control column; the same operation returns the tab to its normal position and the aircraft tends to ease out of the dive. Thus, even if the dive is vertical, the aircraft will not touch the bomb.

Should the pilot override the safety device, which limits the movement of the control column, a force of about 65 lb. would be required and an acceleration of 6g might be attained, with a pull-out radius of about 1,500ft.https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1152x648/untitled_0eda3071c6b4ee63cd7b79e2d935c463d818ac4a.png

[Haraka]

My father did dive bomber trials over Malta with a captured Ju 88.
There was a similar mechanism in which dive pull out was initiated by activating the bomb release . As he put it:
" Otherwise you had the option of going in with your bombs"

[Danny42C]

megan and Haraka,

Unnecessary complication, I would think. Admittedly the VV (Mks. I-III) had a zero Angle of Incidence on the wing, so the nose did not ride up with increased speed in the dive, but if it did (and would in the Mk.IV), a handful of nose-down trim should be enough to counteract it.

Pull-out ? !'ll decide when and how hard to pull, if you don't mind !

"Spearing in" after a dive was the "normal" VV accident (at least at the Peshawar OCU). The Squadron pilots were less prone to it.

Danny.

[Franek Grabowski]

One of the main targets of the Ju 87 in Poland was to spread terror. Panicked civilians jammed roads, making movement of the Polish army impossible. Wehrmacht had no problem with that...
Danny, I do not want to steal the Vengeance thread, could we contact off board re Polish airmen in the post-war RAF?

[Danny42C]

Franek Grabowski,

Welcome aboard !
If there is nothing sensitive about your request, suggest you put it on Open Post - you will not be "stealing the Vengeance Thread" (there is no such thing !) There is only the "Pilot's Brevet" Thread, and our Moderators (bless them) allow us "old hairies" very wide scope on it.

And by throwing it open, you may well attract replies from all over the world from people who know far more than I about what you want to know.

If I do not see anything on this Thread from you by 2359 BST 30/8/18, I will PM you about a private contact.

Danny.

[Pontius Navigator]

Franke, there are quite a few of us here who flew with them.

[Franek Grabowski]

Oh, it is nothing sensitive, I just thought it could be more convenient. Though of course it is a good idea to make a post. I think History and Nostalgia forum is most appropriate. Will post there in a minute.
Thank you
Franek

[ian16th]

When I was at BCBS Lindholme 1954-56 we had a significant number of former Lancaster Polish NCO pilots on the permanent staff, flying the Lincolns.

[Franek Grabowski]

When I was at BCBS Lindholme 1954-56 we had a significant number of former Lancaster Polish NCO pilots on the permanent staff, flying the Lincolns.
Ian, there was indeed a number of Polish pilots flying Lancasters and Lincolns in the RAF, several of them former fighter pilots. Most interested to hear more details. I have started separate threads here and on History and Nostalgia.

[Franek Grabowski]

Just a note about those brave Polish flyers. I was in the ATC in Blackpool, the school Sqn was 2454, though the band was 2354 based in a building in the roughest council estate in Blackpool, Grange Park.
The OC was a ex Polish RAF guy called Wing Commander Tuarek(sp). He flew Hurricanes and Spitfires during the war and Meteors and Javelin post war. His son wanted to be a fighter pilot like him, but unfortunately at 6ft 7in had to settle for Transports. What was the height limit on jet fighters with a bone dome?
Sorry if I am off thread.

This man was Tadeusz Turek, no Oz connection. :)
Franek

[Danny42C]

Franek,

Nooo ! stay with us as well (can you do that ?). Btw, was flown, with all my kit, from Binbrook to Driffield in 1950 by a Master Pilot Kalinowski in a Lincoln (courtesy of 101 C,O. Wg Cdr Hamish Mahaddie, one of nature's gentlemen).

On 20 Sqn (1950) we had a Master Pilot "Joe" Halkiew.

ATC at Leeming had a Flt Lt "Jack" Blocki (think he had the "Virtute Militari").

Ref #12180, there is a very posh suburb of Melbourne called Toorak.

[Chugalug2]

Franek, I thoroughly endorse Danny's heartfelt plea. Please stay and tell us all you know of the Polish pilots that flew with the RAF in WWII or post-war. As Danny says, the thread had surely exhausted its original OP remit yet here is another rich vein to mine! All the Poles that became RAF Pilots gained by definition an RAF Pilots Brevet, although as we have now gathered it was not necessarily worn! As to anecdotes I posted here (#11526) my memories of Victor Fontes. An RAF navigator in the 60's when we were both on 48Sqn, but originally he was a Polish Cavalry officer and then an RAF Pilot:-

I have posted before about a Polish Nav on 48 Sqn Hastings at Changi, but his story warrants a brief reprise given present posts.

Together with much else of the Polish Army after the fall of Poland, Victor Fontes (a Polish Cavalry Officer) went south east to the Black Sea port of Constanta (a remarkable feat in itself), embarked there in a British ship for Gibraltar, transhipped for Western France to fight the Wehrmacht that had laid waste to his homeland, but arrived there only for the fall of that country. He fled south to the Pyrenees with the aid of the brave guides described to us by sidevalve, was arrested and then escaped from the Franco regime, made it back to Gibraltar where he joined the RAF for training as a Bomber Pilot (there being a lack of vacancies for Cavalry Officers!).

He survived that very dangerous occupation and remained with the post war RAF, together with so many other Poles he knew that a return to the now Communist regime back home could mean certain death. He later remustered as a nav because of the surplus of pilots.

A larger than life character in every way and still challenged by his adopted tongue, Vic was a survivor in every way and an inspiration for a then still callow co-pilot.

[Franek Grabowski]

Danny
Sure, I do not want to leave, I just think that a separate thread would better serve the purpose. There is surely lots of stories about Poles, an the thread has alredy 610 pages! It is hard to browse!
Kalinowski was Tadeusz, I presume? Joe Halkiew, ex Mosquito jock, he later flew Mosquitoes and Meteors with No 152 Sqn. What aircraft had he been flying in No 20 Sqn?
Jack Błocki was awarded with Silver Cross of Virtuti Militari, he flew Wellingtons on No 305 Sqn, then was co pilot in the crew of F/L Szostak flying Liberator from Italy with drops to underground. His last mission was Wildhorn II, he was a co pilot with RAF crew flying Dakota to Poland to retrieve some underground figures. At some point he was a mobile ATC for helis at Borneo, later in Cyprus, where he had settled. He had his memories published a few years ago, First Tango in Warsaw.
Surely there is Toorak, but Turek means Turkish man in Polish. This could be also dimunitive of aurochs.

Chugalug
Victor Fontes was actually Wiktor Cepiński-Flegel. He served with No 301 Sqn after the war, flying transport aircraft, Warwicks and Halifaxes. In December 1948 he joined RPAF and flew with AHQ Communication Squadron at Mauripur, Wayfarer and Dakotas. He was released in September 1949, and flew for a short while with Pak Air Ltd, and after it went belly up, he returned to the UK. I was unable to contact his family. Do you have any photos of him?

Best wishes
Franek

[Chugalug2]

Franek

Thank you for Victor/Wiktor's pilot background which is certainly news to me. No photos I'm afraid, but a clear picture in my mind of him working at his nav position in the Hastings. A big man clad only in his underwear, not a pretty sight! Like most big men he was a gentle giant, that is until he took umbrage with someone. Unfortunately such a person was our Sqn Cdr at Changi, and when Victor came into the Adjutant's Office (I was Deputy Adjutant and covering for him) with his completed clearance card, I accepted it and said that the CO could see him now to say goodbye. "If I see that F...ing man I will crush his F...ing skull!" (a favourite expression of Victor, no doubt with Polish roots). I hastily signed him off, wished him good fortune, and said goodbye. The boss asked later why he hadn't seen Victor that day. "You were out, Sir, so I said goodbye on your behalf", I lamely replied.

The reason this thread has run to 610 pages for over 10 years is because of its eternal popularity (and the benign forbearance of the mods!). Themes come and themes go, but the thread defies all efforts and forecasts of its demise, and is forever making new paths. The effect is that it is always near the front page, whereas many single issue threads slip inexorably into the PPRuNe depths never to be seen again. Unlike many of our themes (uniforms, cars, rations, convoy routes, etc, etc,) your proposal to introduce the stories of Polish Pilots who obtained RAF Pilots Brevets (in WWII or after) is front and centre of the thread OP. Your call of course, but if you choose to tell their stories here I'm sure they they would be warmly received and commented upon. If you did so choose your other thread could be closed by you (as thread Opening Poster). Just saying...

[MPN11]

Well said, Chugalug2, and agree completely. These histories deserve to be in this one place, random as the current topic may be on occasion.

[Icare9]

I've found this thread absorbing for many years, recounting many of the unknown or unsung aspects of RAF life.

The contribution made by Polish forces to aid us, particularly in the most desperate early years of the War deserves to be told to this appreciative audience and Franek clearly has a depth of knowledge which would enrich this thread. Please carry on here!

[MPN11]

Franek ... In case Danny missed your question, I’m guessing Halkiew was flying Spitfires on 20 Sqn at that time.

See >>> https://www.pprune.org/9637472-post10028.html

I’m sure Danny described here the work they did, but I can’t find the post[s]. Perhaps it was someone else? IIRC they flew up and down as targets for Army AA (not with live ammo, though).

[roving]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1187x533/screen_shot_2018_08_28_at_16_01_57_fbf4c083fcdd6f65fe22caf6a 12cec38c3eb8916.png
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1178x690/screen_shot_2018_08_28_at_16_07_27_ad8414c2c43d334b52bf19d01 c8ea5eef44320da.png

[Franek Grabowski]

OK guys. I will leave the other thread however, as it may attract someone's attention.
Of the Polish airmen in the pictures, Zumbach had a fascinating post war story, while Tony Głowacki spend a few years in the RAF flying amongst others, Vampires and Washingtons, and then had a long career in RNZAF.

[Ormeside28]

When I rejoined in Feb 1951 my first posting, to await further training, was to Valley as a Link Training Instructor. Nobody was interested in the Link, so I attached myself to 20 Squadron. I was able to go with Jo Halkirk and Zenon Zmitrowicz in the back of their Beaufighters on Army Co-op down at Towyn, and fly in the right hand seat of the Oxford on similar missions. Jo and Zenon flew the Beaufighter, Spitfires,Oxford and Vampires.. I started to fly the Meteor, unofficially, by the Wing Co Of the AFS when it moved in, but before too long I was sent on the Wings Refresher Course at Oakington. Many years later when a Controller at the MHQ at Pitreavie, Jo Halkiew was the W/O Discip. A great man. He resupplied Warsaw in a Halifax in 1945, and had a top Polish medal for gallentary. Danny will remember him at Valley

[Danny42C]

Ormeside,

I was on 20 Squadron at Valley from 20/3/50 to disbandment on 19/9/51, so you must've been there with me. I was on "B" Flight, (Flt Cmdr "Willie" Hewlett, also PMC). "Red" Dunningham had the other flight, I think. "Boss" was Alex Hindley (and you couldn't have a better one). I remember "Joe" Halkiew, of course, but never knew "Zed-Zed" Zmitrowitz had the Christian (?) name "Zenon". The Squadron had Spit XVIs and Vampires III and V, everbody flew both, but only Joe, Z-Z, the Boss and Willie flew the Beau, as I recall. The Station (Wg Cdr J.E.T. Haile) had a Harvard and a TM, but don't remember any Oxford. Perhaps the AFS brought one in - they were using the Oxfords as a lead-in to the Meteor (which never struck me as a good idea) as late as 1954.

You must've enjoyed my many Posts on my Valley time in "Pilot's Brevet". Did you hear the story of the disastrous "Beauty Competiton", which was supposed to have taken place in 1949 (before I came) ?

We must've PM'd at one time, as I know your name - you must know mine ! (I had that little green Bond "Minicar" from May, 1950). My 18 months there was a very pleasant one - Ann (from Bangor), where are you now ?

Small world ! Happy days ! Danny.

[ValMORNA]

Franek, I don't know if any of this is of use . . .
At RAF Swanton Morley between Dec 1951 and July 1952 I flew in their Ansons and Proctors with

Sgt Pedzimas
F/Lt Lanzig
Sgt Weber
Sgt Michel
F/Sgt Solecki
Sgt Kasprowiak and
Sgt Boba

In July 1952 at 201 AFS Swinderby

F/Lt Gragzyck and finally

In July 1953, from Lyneham to Dishforth

M/Plt Penczek in Valetta VW857 belonging to 242 OCU.
Presumably he was a member of staff there.

Any or all may be wartime pilots, there were a good many medal ribbons on display.

[Icare9]

As we're now venturing into the efforts of the Polish aircrews. this may be of some help and interest.
I'd known there were a lot of Polish fliers, but 17,000!
https://listakrzystka.pl/en/polskie-sily-powietrzne-na-zachodzie/
Considering what they suffered, with Germany and then "friend" Russia carving up the Country, the Katyn massacre and the Warsaw Uprising, they really had a tough War.
And then not be allowed back to their Country and persecution by the Russians...

[Taphappy]

Franek.
When I was a staff Wop at Topcliffe in 1946/47 there were a few Polish pilots based there and I flew with most of them on many occasions. Names that spring to mind are F/Lt Kula who unfortunately was killed as a result of a midair collision of two Wellingtons in 1948, WO Marian Zawodny, WO Stepien and WO Ted Poludniak.
They were all great guys.

[Franek Grabowski]

Guys, excellent, some more new names! The story of hammer throw was excellent one. Have you got any more?
As to Polish airmen, indeed some 17,000 personnel passed through the PAF, about 2,000 killed and missing, some 2-3,000 returned to Poland. Few were executed, some more imprisoned, but most lived through, with some minor and minor oppression by the regime. Those interested what looked like to be accused to be a British spy may look for my book Skalski: Against All Odds, though it could be too graphic for some.
Here is the list of the names plus an extra log book page for ValMorna

Sgt Aleksander Pędzimąż - new one
F/Lt Lanzig - that one I need to look for
Sgt Jerzy Weber
Sgt Józef Michel
F/Sgt Jerzy Solecki
Sgt Bogusław Kasprowiak
Sgt Tadeusz Boba - new one
F/Lt Gragzyck I think Witold Graczyk, at one point with No 202 Sqn.
M/Plt Penczek - Leopold Pęczek
http://www.muzeumlotnictwa.pl/digitalizacja_archiwaliow/katalog/1974/20.jpg
http://www.muzeumlotnictwa.pl/digitalizacja_archiwaliow/katalog/1974/21.jpg
F/Lt Franciszek Kula - new one
WO Marian Zawodny - new one
WO Zdzisław Stępień - new one
WO Tadeusz Południak - later in RPAF

[FantomZorbin]

In the early '70s there was a Flight Sergeant Jan Masat(?) on the mil. FIR desk at LATCC. Jan was fascinating chap who'd been a pilot and was now under constant pressure from his wife to return to Czechoslovakia* - all the letters from his wife had been written by the Czech SIS!!

* Sorry for thread drift, I originally thought he was Polish … a 'senior moment'. Sorry Jan if you're reading this.

[ICM]

I had it in my mind that there were several Polish staff pilots as I went through Nav School in 1965, but a check with my logbook reveals I only ever flew with a Flt Lt Artymuik whilst at No 2 ANS, RAF Hullavington, in April that year.

[pulse1]

There was a Polish Master Pilot at RAF Llandow in the mid 50's. As an ATC cadet, I had the immense but noisy pleasure of sitting in on one of his test flights in a Lincoln bomber. Actually, sitting was a bit of a misnomer. It was either lying on the floor or standing behind the flight crew.

[Brian 48nav]

Like ICM, I had it in my mind that I'd flown with several Polish staff pilots while at 2ANS, then at Gaydon, in 1966 but Flt Lt Artymuik was also my only one!

I was on 88 Course, what was yours ICM?

[Danny42C]

Franek,

Somewhere on this Thread there was a pic of the Leeming AT Controllers around 1969: pretty sure Jack Blocki was on it. Tried to find it with "Search this Thread", drew blank as usual. Anybody ?

Second Thought - could it have been sent to me as a PM ? Will check.

He was always talking of retiring to Cyprus, glad he managed it at the end. Was his British wife "Brenda" ?

On P.170 #3398 I said:

..."Our work was the dullest flying imaginable. During the summer months our chief regular customers were the TA AA camps at Tonfanau: they fired 3.7s (?) out to sea, some of the time at a target (drogue - flag ?) towed by the Beau. When this was in front of the guns, the crew were fairly safe, but as it got farther down the firing line the angle closed up, and sometimes an over-keen Terrier would bang off one round too many.

They peppered the tail feathers of the Beau from time to time, but never managed to shoot it down. "Joe" and "Zed-Zed" philosophically accepted this hazard: as for the little (NS) airman on the winch at the back (who was closest of all to the shrapnel), nobody asked him"...

Ormeside (#12190),

So you were down at the "sharp end" too ? Living Dangerously, I'd say ! Don't remember Joe and Zenon flying Spits and Vampires at all, as they were busy most days with the Beau - but they undoubtedly could if they wanted to, whereas we Spit and Vamp drivers wanted to know nothing of the Beau. Don't think I ever even looked in the cockpit.

Danny.

[ex82watcher]

FantomZ,when I first went to LATCC in '79 or '80,Jan Masat was an ATCA for the CAA,and I think used to keep the briefing room up-to-date.He also stayed in the same 'digs' as me one time while at CATC,and I vaguely remember him telling of an incident while he was flying a Lysander,but I can't remember the substance of it.Funnily enough I thought he was Czech.

[Brian 48nav]

ex82watcher - I was at LATCC then and thought Jan was Czech. Vague memory of him wearing some sort of device either round his head or was it his neck? I think he had suffered some health issues - maybe a mild stroke? Always a very affable man, I wish I had found out more about him.

[lasernigel]

Franek, thanks for the link for seeing Tadeusz Turek. He was a really nice guy. It is a great shame that there is no more history on his RAF career or his dedication to his ATC sqn as a Wing Commander. I often wonder how John got on with his career.

[Danny42C]

MPN11,

ISTR you sent me the pic of the Leeming ATC Controllers in a PM about Dec, 2015, but Pprune has altered the PM Inbox format a lot recently: half of the ones I was keeping seem to have disappeared.

If it was you, and you.ve still got it, could you PM it again. please ? Jack Blocki was certainly on it (and me, of course !)

Just a shot in the dark ! Cheers, Danny.

[sycamore]

Danny,sent you a PM..

[ICM]

Brian: This is all a bit contemporary for a nominally WW2 thread, but I was on 72 Course, one of the last to go through Hullavington, I think. (Jan - Jul at HV, then Aug - Dec at Stradishall.)

[Franek Grabowski]

Danny
Frankly, I do not remember if Jack's mother was Brenda, but I will try to check. I know that he spend quite a few years in Cyprus, mostly sailing with his wife, and was there during Turkish invasion. I think he moved to the UK shortly before his death. I think I have an email to his son, I will look for it, and make him aware of the thread.

Nigel
Tad Turek, assuming it was him, I find him as F/O in RAFVR and no other Turek, had a very interesting career during the war. He flew eg. with No 317 Sqn on Spitfires, and No 309 Sqn on Mustangs. Most interesting period was his service with No 609 Sqn. He was one of few Polish airmen flying Typhoons, and he scored few kills on them, the most famous being St Valentine's day massacre in 1943, where he flew with S/L Lallemant. It seems he later became a school teacher.
Have a look at the photo, and see the video - he is sipping coffee.
609 Squadron Typhoon JP745 PR-L P/O. Turek (http://aircrewremembered.com/turek-tadeusz.html)
https://vimeo.com/59217923

Guys
Jan Masat was a Czech indeed. No problem, I will make aware a Czech pal, he certainly would be interested.
I will try to write more tomorrow.
Best wishes
Franek

[FantomZorbin]

ex82 watcher, Brian 48nav, Franek
Many thanks for the correction, amendments made.:O

[MPN11]

MPN11,
ISTR you sent me the pic of the Leeming ATC Controllers in a PM about Dec, 2015, but Pprune has altered the PM Inbox format a lot recently: half of the ones I was keeping seem to have disappeared.
If it was you, and you.ve still got it, could you PM it again. please ? Jack Blocki was certainly on it (and me, of course !)
Just a shot in the dark ! Cheers, Danny.PM sent. Yes, Jack Blocki 3rd from left in front row. Picture seems extremely small ... I had to zoom AND use the magnifying glass!! :)

EDIT: Damn, can't attach image to PM!! Working on it ...

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm468/atco5473/PPRuNe%20ATC/yDBgWaT3ow9xKiCH0drA09ST2zxXLI_DM4STWY02Sfw.jpeg

[Danny42C]

MPN11,

Thanks ! - that's the one, Jack Blocki is third from left, I am fourth from right. Fine body of men - and one very nice girl,

Franek,

Brenda (?) was Jack's wife, not his mother.

Nearly all dead now, I suppose.

Danny.

[Chugalug2]

Icare9:-
https://listakrzystka.pl/en/polskie-...-na-zachodzie/ (https://listakrzystka.pl/en/polskie-sily-powietrzne-na-zachodzie/)
Considering what they suffered, with Germany and then "friend" Russia carving up the Country, the Katyn massacre and the Warsaw Uprising, they really had a tough War.
And then not be allowed back to their Country and persecution by the Russians...

Many thanks for that link Icare9. Thanks to Franek I now know that Victor Fontes (actually Wiktor Cepiński-Flegel) was not a pilot as I thought but an Air Observer, later to become a Navigator of course. Also of interest was that he was born in Georgia and died at the young age of 66. His awards are given as 3xKW, ML, and ODRK. Could you please give us a translation Franek?

Quite agree about the duff hand the Poles were dealt with, Icare9. I think they were also denied a place in the London Victory Parade for fear of offending our Russian allies.

[Franek Grabowski]

Chugalug
Even more interestingly, Victor declared himself as Moslem. KW is Krzyż Walecznych, or Cross of Valour. I think it couldbe roughly compared to DFC/DFM. ML is MedalLotniczy or Air Medal. I have no idea what ODRK is, need to check.
The London parade was a little bit more complicated. The commie regime was invited, but ultimately refused. Then at the last moment Polish troops in the UK were asked, but in such a situation, obviously refused.

Re Brenda - sticky fingers, I thought of wife, but typed mother. Sorry.

F/L Artymiuk was Kazimierz Artymiuk, ex-305 Sqn Wellington pilot.

Most of the men are gone by now. I recall one being still alive, perhaps there is a handful of them.

[Chugalug2]

Interesting indeed, Franek. The only thing he told us was of his long and dangerous journey to Gib, and hence the UK and RAF, where he flew with BC. His English vocabulary was limited (understandably) in the 60s, and somewhat colourful as well! Now he turns out to be Moslem! The abbreviations on Icare's site are given here, including those of Victor's awards:-

https://listakrzystka.pl/en/zasady_wyszukiwania/#Wykaz_Skrotow

A DFC and two bars equivalent! Also the Polish Air Force Medal, and a Wounded in Action one. I presume those in the Polish Air Force in the UK were only entitled to Polish Awards, or were they allowed UK ones too? How did the CoC work, were they fully integrated into the RAF and subject to RAF Air Force Law, or was there a more complicated system in force?

Those immediate Post War years were not morally easy ones for the UK. In particular we handed back ex Red Army Cossacks to the USSR who faced almost certain death. At least there was a place for the Poles who remained with us in the UK Services. I seem to recall that a group of them, I guess ex Army Engineers, who well into retirement stuck together in teams clearing minefields and munitions in the UK. Dangerous work but they faced it together!

[lasernigel]

Franek Thank for the video link much appreciated. Hoping I can find his obituary somewhere.

Seems to have be blessed with the ability to survive. http://Tadeusz Turek

[OffshoreSLF]

There are 8 Polish Pilots buried in Sleepyhillock cemetery, Montrose. 7 of those were with 8 FTS, all in 1941. One of these was killed in a mid air collision, and crashed a couple of hundred yards from my Grandparents house. Well before my time, but I remember them talking about it. The 8th was killed in 1944 while with 307 Sqdn.

Link here https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead/results/?cemetery=MONTROSE+(SLEEPYHILLOCK)+CEMETERY&tab=wardead&fq_servedwithliteral=Polish

[Franek Grabowski]

Nigel
Here you are some more reading on Turek. He died in 1993 in Warrington. There is an ongoing research on the Polish AF, so there is a good chance someone tackles his story, especially as it was quite unusual.
https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/16287359/tadeusz-turek-609-west-riding-squadron-royal-auxiliary-air-force
PS Sorry, St Valentine's was Polek not Turek, but as you can read, he got some as well.


Chugalug
As I said it is a rough comparison. The Polish award system was simple. You could get four CVs, the fifth meant a Silver Cross of VM. Each class of VM could have been awarded only once. Classes varied due to level of command, the silver one was for everyone, and then the one had to be a commander of bigger and bigger units. Polish airmen could get foreign awards, following agreement of the Polish command. Several got British awards, for example Skalski had DSO and DFC & two bars, this apart of Polish Gold & Silver Crosses VM and CV & three bars not to mention minor awards. As to the system, generally PAF had control over personnel matters, awards, major offences. Rank system was complicated, as Poles had two sets of ranks, Polish, badges worn on collars, and RAF ones, on sleeves. Operationally PAF was subordinated to RAF, this was logical, as PAF was too small force to work independently. Sometimes it causes a mess.
In regard of post-war period, not everyone shared views of Attlee, but on the other hand Britons seemed to have little understanding what Soviets are. Some understood that well, however. A long story!

SLF
There is a pretty good coverage of Polish burials on the Polish internet, and a few years ago there was a book published (in Polish) covering all flying deaths of Polish airmen 1939-1945. There was also one less detailed covering all AF deaths, and in 1952 a list of all deaths of Polish Army 1940-1947 has been published. As to Szempliński, he was killed in a crash in bad weather in a Mosquito, together with RAF navigator, Frank Tillman. Tillman was buried next to him, I think.

[pzu]

At £200/hr as opposed to £2750/hr, there could be hope for me yet!!! BUT I doubt I’d fit in!!!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/the-filter/like-fly-spitfire-without-feet-leaving-ground/

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

[spekesoftly]

Danny,

You were asking earlier about Jack Blocki's wife. Her name was Hilda. I remember them both well and they were a lovely couple. They were our neighbours in married quarters in Cyprus in the early 1970s, when Jack and I both worked at JATCC Nicosia.

[Danny42C]

spekesoftly (#12218).

Hilda ! - of course ! - it was on the tip of my tongue !

Odd thing, on the photo (#12209 - "Twenty two men and a girl !"), there are only two pilots, Jack and I.

(Liverpudlian) Danny.

[Union Jack]

spekesoftly (#12218).

Hilda ! - of course ! - it was on the tip of my tongue !

Odd thing, on the photo (#12209 - "Twenty two men and a girl !"), there are only two pilots, Jack and I.

(Liverpudlian) Danny.

I see what you did there, Danny....

Jack

PS A "Scouser" the other day, but now a "Liverpudlian"?

[Danny42C]

Jack,

Same difference ! Danny,

[OffshoreSLF]

SLF
There is a pretty good coverage of Polish burials on the Polish internet, and a few years ago there was a book published (in Polish) covering all flying deaths of Polish airmen 1939-1945. There was also one less detailed covering all AF deaths, and in 1952 a list of all deaths of Polish Army 1940-1947 has been published. As to Szempliński, he was killed in a crash in bad weather in a Mosquito, together with RAF navigator, Frank Tillman. Tillman was buried next to him, I think.

Franek
Nice to hear Polish airmen are well remembered.
Szemplinski is buried in grave 12 while Tillman is buried in grave 8. Not next to each other, but pretty close.

[Franek Grabowski]

OffshoreSLF
You can check for info here. This website is continuously updated.
https://niebieskaeskadra.pl/?langue=en

[Pom Pax]

At 2 ANS Thorney Island '57 - '58 there were quite a few Polish staff Pilots. Only one commissioned a Flt/Lt on the NF10s but driving the Varsitys many NCOs and M/Ps with unpronounceable names beginning in Z...…., so long they would not fit in the box in ones log book. At least one whose Penglish was very challenging. Quite a few names on here vaguely ring bells.
I did some exercises with a M/P Garbuz whom Pontius Navigator recalls some 7 years later still up front in a Varsity. No wonder it has been said they knew their way round the British Isles without maps, charts or student help.
In Franek Grabowski (https://www.pprune.org/members/471231-franek-grabowski) 's link http://www.muzeumlotnictwa.pl/digitalizacja_archiwaliow/katalog/1974/20.jpg there is a co-pilot listed whose name probably still strikes fear in the hearts of his former students for his lack of CRM.

[Union Jack]

Jack,

Same difference ! Danny,

Et vive la différence! - The first English city I ever visited and later warmly remembered for some monumentally fun ship visits......

Jack

[Geriaviator]

Franek, I had the honour to fly in Flt Lt Ignatowski's Hastings when my late father's 202 squadron disbanded in 1964 after years of met reconnaissance from RAF Aldergrove. We were one of three escorts and I can still see him working hard to hold formation on the lead aircraft which continued with the squadron standard to Leconfield, I think it was. One could almost count the rivets on the leader's tailplane ...

F/Lt Ignatowski, known as Iggy to everyone, and a colleague had stolen a light aircraft when the Germans invaded Poland. They managed quite a long distance across Europe until they could no longer obtain fuel, and by devious means they reached England where Iggy continued his flying career.

Another vastly experienced pilot was Master Pilot Frantisek Radina (1915-1968) who escaped from Czechoslovakia to join 311 Sqn on Wellingtons. In 1943 he was posted to the Bahamas as an instructor on Liberators, ending up with 202 Sqn first on Halifax and later on Hastings. The air and ground crews had an impressive reliability record built up over many years, each Bismuth flight taking off at 0800 and lasting between eight and 10 hours despite the Atlantic weather.

[Danny42C]

Geriaviator,

"Frankie" Radina rings a bell. Didn't he finish up on ATC ?

Danny.

[Franek Grabowski]

Pom Pax
I have checked my list for Z, but I do not find any particulalry hard names but Zmitrowicz. I wonder of Szczygielski.
That said I recall a story about Joe Kmiecik, longest flying Polish pilot in the RAF, who once sought for a navigator - this was late 1970s or early 1980s I think. He approached a young chap with nav wings, and asked him to fly. The chap then refused, saying he has no maps or equipment, but Joe said, that it is not necessary, that he knows the route, and he just cannot take off without navigator due to regulations.

Geriaviator
Iggy is known to me. He is the only Polish pilot known to me to fly Neptune in the RAF. He passed away not so long ago. Do you have your father's log books by any chance?

[Danny42C]

3rd September, 1939 was a quiet autumn Sunday morning, and all Britain waited in a state of dull resignation. Among them was the 17 year old Danny, glued to the home "wireless" like everybody else.

At 11:00 our Prime Minister, the Rt. Hon. Neville Chamberlain, came on to say:

"This morning the British Ambassador in Berlin handed the German Government a final Note stating that, unless we heard from them by 11 o'clock that they were prepared at once to withdraw their troops from Poland, a state of war would exist between us. I have to tell you now that no such undertaking has been received, and that consequently this country is at war with Germany".

No one who heard those lugubrious words can ever forget them. WWI had ended less than 20 years previously: so all adults knew what the words meant. For us youngsters, all our lives (if not ended) would be changed beyond recognition in the next six years.

Of course, precious few of the hearers that morning are still alive, but even so, I would've thought that somewhere on "New Posts" mention might have been made. Perhaps it has ?

[MPN11]

I missed it, as I was but a gleam in Dad's eyes, but I've heard it re-broadcast often enough to still send a shiver down my spine ... knowing now what was to follow.

[Geriaviator]

DANNY: I don't know what became of Frank Radina other than commander of one of the Hastings when 202 Sqn went to Leconfield to convert onto SAR Whirlwinds. I have, however, found an entry on the 202 Sqn website which states: "... someone asked me if I knew who carried out the burial at sea for Master Pilot Frank Radina and I replied that I had forgotten, but would look it up. The answer is Master Pilot H A Harrison on 11 April 1968 in Whirlwind XJ437 accompanied by Squadron Leader Faulkener.

FRANEK: My father was ground crew, his job being to have a Hastings ready to go at 0800 every morning, plus a spare if it went u/s. The other three were on maintenance and could be raided for spares if really necessary, just as long as Bismuth met its ETD! As a youngster at RAF Binbrook (Lincolns, 1949/51) I remember the shoulder flashes for Commonwealth countries, for Poland and Czechoslovakia. The Poles and Czechs spoiled us kids rotten. I have never forgotten my father explaining that many of these brave men had left their own families behind what became the Iron Curtain.

[Fareastdriver]

Hastings ready to go at 0800 every morning, plus a spare if it went u/s. The other three were on maintenance and could be raided for spares if really necessary

My father was a pilot on 202 from 1947 to 1950 on Halifaxs. A year or so before that he had been ferrying new Halifaxs from the factory to Edzell in Scotland to be broken up. There was a chronic shortage of spares for Halifaxs as there were only two squadrons, the other in Gibraltar. To overcome this my father would load half a dozen in a Halifax, fly them to Dyce, then stay at the Caledonian Hotel in Aberdeen whilst they drove down to Edzell and robbed the remains for what they could get.

The next day he would fly the bits and blokes back.

[Geriaviator]

FED's story had echoes 30-odd years later when the RAF required its few remaining Vulcans to attack the Falklands. Unfortunately most had been scrapped, in particular the refuelling probes being no longer available. A procession of senior personnel then toured the scrapyards to buy back the necessary components, no doubt to the benefit of the scrap men. Plus ca change ...

[Chugalug2]

Danny:-
At 11:00 our Prime Minister, the Rt. Hon. Neville Chamberlain, came on to say:

"This morning the British Ambassador in Berlin handed the German Government a final Note stating that, unless we heard from them by 11 o'clock that they were prepared at once to withdraw their troops from Poland, a state of war would exist between us. I have to tell you now that no such undertaking has been received, and that consequently this country is at war with Germany".

He immediately followed that by adding:-

"You can imagine what a bitter blow it is to me that all my long struggle to win peace has failed. Yet I cannot believe that there is anything more or anything different that I could have done and that would have been more successful."

As if anybody was trying to imagine how he felt when they were rather more preoccupied with their own feelings! The full text can be seen on the Beeb Archive. Saying that we and France were now going to the aid of the Poles was stretching things rather, especially as it was immediately followed by the "Sitz Kreig". :-

BBC - Archive - WWII: Outbreak - The Transcript of Neville Chamberlain's Declaration of war (http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/ww2outbreak/7957.shtml?page=txt)

[Danny42C]

Chugalug especially as it was immediately followed by the "Sitz Kreig". Also called the "Phoney War". We sang: "We're going to hang out the washing on the Siegfried Line / Have you any dirty washing, Mother dear ?

We had to eat our words in 1940 !

[MPN11]

Chugalug . Also called the "Phoney War". We sang: "We're going to hang out the washing on the Siegfried Line / Have you any dirty washing, Mother dear ?

We had to eat our words in 1940 !
"Over by Christmas"? ;)

Who knows where any military ventures will lead? If anyone knew, they probably wouldn't start them in the first place! I won't cite examples, as the 20th and 21st Century are full of them, some of which are on-going.

[ian16th]

My father was a pilot on 202 from 1947 to 1950 on Halifaxs. A year or so before that he had been ferrying new Halifaxs from the factory to Edzell in Scotland to be broken up. There was a chronic shortage of spares for Halifaxs as there were only two squadrons, the other in Gibraltar. To overcome this my father would load half a dozen in a Halifax, fly them to Dyce, then stay at the Caledonian Hotel in Aberdeen whilst they drove down to Edzell and robbed the remains for what they could get.

The next day he would fly the bits and blokes back.

There is a former pilot of the Gib Halifax's, who is a member of the Joburg Branch of the RAFA.

He was a National Serviceman.

[Danny42C]

Paddling about on the Net (as one does), came across:

"BRILLIANT The Rise and Fall of the Japanese Zero You Tube".

Worth a look, if interested in the Japanese war.

[sycamore]

Danny,go to `AH& Nostalgia`, Franek`s thread on `Polish airmen` and check posts16/17........

[Franek Grabowski]

Geriaviator
Do you have any pics by any chance?

[Geriaviator]

Sorry Franek, we have only a few family pictures from 1948/1951 period and none with our Polish friends. I did have one with Iggy in the cockpit but to my consternation it was lost in a house move many years ago.

[Danny42C]

http://www.polishsquadronsremembered.com/663/663_where_when.jpg
663 Squadron Auster V low flying ove airfield somewhere in Italy. needs info. (Photos: SIkorski's Institute)

sycamore (#16),

It can't be ..... zoomed in as far as possible and got magnifying glass out. They've got a tarpaulin over the cockpits, but the tail end is unmistakable. It's a VV, and no mistake ! (then a chap's head gets in the way, but is that a prop blade tip on the other side of the helmet ?) I think it's an A-31, as otherwise the big rear 0.50 would be sticking back out of the tarpaulin (but is it ? - sharper eyes than mine needed !)

These pictures have been taken in 1945. The VV has a roundel plus yellow (?)ring - some sign of a training aircraft ?

This is utterly mystifying. How on earth could a VV get to ITALY in 1945 ? A few Mk.Is had come across to UK for evaluation: possibly when they were found useless they were chucked all over the place .... and this is one.

If it is an A-35 (Mk.IV), then the Free French took a few (in Morocco), could one have got to Italy ? We took some Mk.IVs, but modded them as target tugs. and I think the cable windmill was on the port side.

I am completely foxed. Is there anyone alive who can throw light on this ?

Thanks a lot, sycamore ! Danny.

[Chugalug2]

Well spotted, sycamore! I was confused by there being two such threads on AH&N, but no doubt the mods are doing a bit of re-arranging at the moment. As to the yellow outer roundel on Danny's shy and retiring VV, I don't think that was a training indicator but a wartime device to ensure the roundel (as progressively modified) was correctly ID'd no matter what the background colour on which it was placed. Not a system used in the FE of course, where the problem was to distinguish Allied aircraft from the Jap 'meatball'. You'll see the Polish Austers also boasting the additional outer ring on the 663 Sqn Pics page:

https://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/612647-danny-all-polish-airmen-raf.html

Polish Squadrons Remembered (http://polishsquadronsremembered.com/)

Edited to add that the previous pic shows medal presentations to 633 pilots by General Anders. Could this be the occasion of the VV pic also? I can't think they fielded a full ceremonial Colour/Standard (?) Escort too often. If it is the same occasion, the medal presentation was at Bologna, Piazza Maggiore....could the low flying Auster be flying the General into/out of the local airfield?

[Tengah Type]

#12226 & 12241
Sqn Ldr "Iggy" Ignatowski was a Staff Pilot at the Air Engineer and Air Electronics School at RAF Topcliffe in the early 70s. I last flew with him in Aug 73, just before the AE & AES moved to RAF Finningley and Topcliffe closed and was handed to the Army. I believe he then retired having extended his service until Topcliffe closed.
My last but one flight with him on 9 Aug was fairly eventful. We were returning to Topcliffe after an AEOp Course landaway and nightstop at Wildenrath. Just after we crossed the Amsterdam/UK FIR Boundary an airman passenger had a fit. We diverted to RAF Coltishall at VNO and called for medical assistance. Shortly thereafter there was loud rythmic banging and severe airframe vibration. What had happened was that the Escape Hatch, in the floor just aft of the pilot's seats had come unlatched and was swinging between closed and nearly open hitting the top hatch/cockpit floor which was being forced up. We slowed down to try to stop this happening, but it still occured as the hatch would not lock in the open position.The AEOP Instructor donned his parachute, was tied to the copilot seat was copious amounts of lashing tape, and with the help of my leg down the hole holding the hatch half closed, he jumped onto the hatch to force it closed. We then proceeded at a fast, but not VMO, pace to Coltishall.

At Topcliffe, at the same time, we had a Polish Navigator Sqn Ldr Bruno Szota. He had escaped from a German POW camp, only to be captured by the Russians and sent to a Russian POW camp! After escaping from them he made his way across Russia and via Iran, the Gulf and South Africa to ship to UK for aircrew training. After surviving a torpedoing he eventually completed training in 1944. He told us of several interesting ways to kill Russians and blow up Guard Houses!

I also flew in a Meteor in Jan 63, at RAF Stradishall, with Flt Lt "Murky" Murkowski.

[Icare9]

I had the same reaction as Danny that it was a Vengeance!
As seems de rigeur in wartime photos, there HAS to be someone standing exactly where the sole means of clearly identifying it is, and obscuring it.
You would have thought, with all the lumps of lead whizzing about that they'd steer clear of such things, but, no, someone has to "photobomb" in precisely the WRONG spot!

It's almost a Polish honour guard fro the aircraft, the way they are looking and the Auster overhead....
I don't think the French used a yellow outer, that seems RAF - but surely they couldn't have a lone VV, where would they get any spares to keep it operational?.
Looks too big and slightly different from a Mustang, does anyone recognise if the Polish standard and double headed eagle might identify the troops?

Intriguing photo!

[Danny42C]

Like Icare9, my first reaction was denial:
...but surely they couldn't have a lone VV, where would they get any spares to keep it operational?...
It can't be, therefore it ain't !

Then I carefully compared the rudder, fin and tail unit with the line drawing in the Wikipedia "Specifications". Same thing, no doubt about it. Is there any other aircraft with a tail end which matches so exactly ? Anybody ?

So now the questions swarm in :

How did it get there ? (must've been after cessation of hostilities in Europe 1945, otherwise no chance of its survival so far)

Where had it come from - only possibility UK ? With a range of only 400 mi ? (never mind what Wiki says).

Why was it there ? (God knows !) Who was operating it ? My guess was it wouldn't need any spares (as it would probably never move again).

What happened to it in the end (could be it is still rotting in some Italian barn ?)

How come we've only found about it now from an old (73 yr) photo ?

I throw the question open to the Pprune community - there is always someone who knows the answer (but is he alive to answer it ?) ... A medium, perhaps ?

Danny.

[sycamore]

Danny,having looked and zoomed closely,it looks as though the VV may not have any outer wings,as I would have expected to see the tips against the distant fence posts,or between the helmets of the troops.
There is a shadow on the ground behind it that could be an` aircraft shape`,given the angle of the Sun,but need some more photos to confirm that.....over to Franek.....

[Chugalug2]

You've started something now, sycamore! A Google search for "Vultee Vengeance Italy" produced this:-

https://449th.com/fred-lax-gallery/raf-vultee-vengeance-grottaglie-italy/

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/1363x948/raf_vultee_vengeance_grottaglie_italy_ca5f0da4efab61b106c10f 5c26f5a5b45049b986.jpg

Grottaglie is just inland from Taranto FWIW

[sycamore]

Chug/Danny,interesting looking at the other photographer`s collection as well...no more VV,and I think that one is probably a target-tug,looking at the bomb-bay and other bits under the fuselage..also appears to have visible incidence on the wing...

[Danny42C]

Chugalug,

Ta for the link ! - and a Google <vultee vengeance target tower> brings up a whole lot of interesting stuff: all worth a look. I found <Vultee A-31 / A-35 Vengeance - dive bomber - Aviastar.org> gives a reasonable potted history and the "comments" are the cherry on the cake.

I think your VV is a TT, as the excrescence below the aft fuselage looks like some kind of TT kit (cable paid out and hauled in by an electric motor ?) Always thought the UK ones (Mk.IV) had a pylon on the L side with a windmill as motive power for the cable winch). But here I am hampered by never having even seen a Mk.IV. Even so I have a gut "feel" that your VV is a Mk.I - II (A-31).

sycamore,
...also appears to have visible incidence on the wing...
It is extraordinarily difficult to judge the AoI on a VV wing from a photograph , unless you have one of each side by side, taken from the same spot.

Danny.

[Franek Grabowski]

Geriaviator
Sure, no problem.

Tengah
Bruno or Bronisław Szota rangs a bell with me. I need to check, but it sounds more than familiar. If torpedoed, then he belonged to a group evacuated with the Polish Army from the Soviet Unioninto Persia, and then send to Karachi for training, but diverted to the UK. They were torpedoed on Empress of Canada I think. A very unpleasant experience, with lots of sharks.
Sounds most interesting.

In regard of VV, I guess it was target tug. There were plenty of non standard types operated successfully, including captured ones, so I do not think there was any problem with servicing, especially given a number of USAAF units in the area. I suppose there might have been more photos of the aircraft on the original roll of film.