Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II

[Chugalug2]

Danny, recalling our previous conjectures about HF aerial configurations on various VVs, is it possible that your excrescence is the fairing for a trailing aerial? I know nothing about Targets or their towing, but that tube looks a little on the flimsy side for such use don't you think?

A pity the serial number is not apparent, for it would at least confirm your ID. The (duck egg blue?) band around the rear fuselage isn't apparent in the Auster pic, suggesting more than one VV in Italy at least. As Franek says, most likely use was TT (for the Spits also at Grottaglie?) . If so it was presumably available on a request basis to fighter units in the area (to keep their hand in?). I wonder if there was a local TT Flight for it and its sisters to come from? Presumably it didn't do any dive bombing, for surely we would have heard of that! Nice pic though. Fred Lax was obviously fascinated by it and other one off visitors to Grottaglie, which is fascinating in its own right, given its airship hangars.

[Danny42C]

Chugalug (#12252),

Yes, distinctly possible. We had only am American R/T set in our VVs, so no trailing aerials. But what radios they put in the TTs I do not know. Like you, I know nowt about it. Perhaps somebody could give us a lead ?

Danny.

[Chugalug2]

Danny, an interesting modellers' site here spells out a difference between the A-31 and A-35 as being an additional intake, offset to port, beneath the cowling of the latter. This appears to be the case of the Grottaglie VV, so perhaps it is a Mk4 after all? Also the radio mast half way back along the upper fuselage appears there too. The model photo below shows an excrescence on the port fuselage to beat any! Looking rather like a clockwork key it is presumably the propeller/rotor for the target winch mechanism. In at least one of the linked pics the "trailing aerial" fairlead is present. It looks as if you are right and I wrong, and it is indeed for the target wire and not a trailing aerial. A pity that Mr Lax didn't shoot it in colour, as the underside may well be yellow rather than duck egg blue. :-

1/72 Frog and Special Hobby Vultee Vengeance by Carmel J Attard (http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal15/14401-14500/gal14435-Vengeance-Attard/00.shtm)

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/800x736/01_28050ae71de656aec97581174aef8861e770e5ab.jpg

[Danny42C]

Chugalug,

Quite a find ! Here we have a model A-35, VV Mk.IV "in full bloom" as a Target Tower. The "clock key" is a stylised version of the windmill "tower": from a vague memory of our 20 Sqn Beau, this was about the size and shape of a traffic cone: I suppose the one fitted to the VV would be much the same.

As for the cable lead-in, it is just guesswork: there is no "right" or "wrong" about it !

There is a lot on "Carmel J. Attard " - who she (he) ? from Google, but "AMC" 's potted history of the VV needs a good rewrite !

So now we have it nailed down: it is a Mk. IV TT that got out of UK somehow to Italy. at war's end. What exactly does the one white band signify ?

Danny.

[Chugalug2]

Danny, I suspect the band was in Duck Egg Blue (ie the same colour as Day Fighter undersides) and was merely yet another device to prevent "Blue on Blue" incidents (though it didn't work for Bader ;-). As the TTs worked with day fighters it would seem logical they adopt similar markings. Here is a chart (courtesy Google) about WWII RAF markings:-


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.gmforum.com-vbulletin/602x318/main_qimg_771a55c20de40efa40ded7acf7d65115_c_a2bce25ab50ad84 f80b7cb09eaded2513683693e.jpg

[sycamore]

Danny,if you google ``www.alamy.com/stock-photo.vulteevengeance`` you`ll find t`ousands of VV pics from all parts,maybe including `yusself`....!
The white band may be just a local ident/ don`t shoot me ,shoot the flag!!
Also note the shape of the bomb-bay doors,as TTs carried various `targets..

[Tengah Type]

Franek ref Bruno Szota. I think we are talking of the same man. Like all people of his generation he did not sit down and tell you about his war. But over two and a half years he told you bits of it while you were having a beer.
If I am correct he was a Cpl in the Polish Army, as an anti aircraft gunner., When the Germans invaded in 1939 he was captured by the Germans but escaped to return home to Eastern Poland where he was imprisoned by the Russians, who had now occupied Eastern Poland. He was sent to a POW camp at Murmansk. He escaped from there skiing south on skis made from bedboards with a few others. They then got on a train to Moscow and on to the Caspian Sea. They survived by selling some blue curtain material they had stolen on a train.
After the Sikorski/Mayski agreeement to reform the Polish Army he rejoined. When there was a call for volunteers for aircrew training he volunteered. He never mentioned training at Karachi, but I know he went via Persia/Iran through the Gulf to South Africa before sailing to UK. I believe that he was one of the few torpedoing victims to survive. !0%??
He always thought that, in comparison, Iggy had had an easy war.
All the Polish people I had the pleasure to fly and serve with were very professional and excellect company.

[Danny42C]

sycamore (#12257),

Thanks ! But there are no more than about 15 VV pics, most of them well known and none remarkable in any way. But you have dozens of "Valiants" (US BT-13), of evil memory .....

From my Page 119, #2367:
The BT-13 was very awkward in the air. You started a turn to the left with a bit of left stick and ease back. The thing skidded and you had to use rudder to bring the nose round. Then the nose would drop, and you had to take off bank to avoid losing height. It left you with crossed controls (left rudder and right stick), crabbing round uncomfortably. And in right turns, vice versa. This aircraft should never have gone into production. I have never flown anything with worse harmonised controls. It had a lot of dihedral and a big fin, so it was stable enough. Straight and level flight was fine. Turns were the problem.

[Chugalug2]

Ref the rear fuselage band on the Grottaglie VV, your question was answered in 2012 by Franek of all people, Danny. Scary how all our ramblings can be retrieved by the search engines now! It seems it was (or should have been) Duck Egg blue (ie Sky type S, as were the day fighter undersides) and was mostly removed in early 1945 from 2nd TAF a/c when good ground camouflage was deemed more vital than possible mis-ident, in progressively Luftwaffe free skies (that had one last trick up its sleeve of course). Interestingly it persevered in Italy, though on a varying basis. Like all paint schemes it was always liable to local mod.

Aviation historians may ponder in future about red triangles appearing on the fins of FEAF Hastings in place of the standard red diamonds of that fleet. They appeared because armed with brushes and red paint we were sent down to the 48Sqn first line by the boss. To enable the mod we borrowed a set of giraffe steps and worked our way down the flight line of the Changi Western Dispersal extending the one shape into the other. The Red Triangle was of course the 48 Squadron Badge, aka the Bass symbol.

Franek:-
The band was introduced to avoid friendly fire incidents and improve air to air recognition, it was remo0ved or not applied where it could compromise the aircraft on the ground.

White band on rear fuselage (http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?13538-White-band-on-rear-fuselage)

[Danny42C]

Chugalug,Scary how all our ramblings can be retrieved by the search engines now!
If only ! If my experience is anything to go by, "Search this Thread" is a forlorn hope, once in a while it turns something up for me, but not very often.

Sometimes "Google" gets it when Pprune can't. Probably just me !

Danny.

[megan]

Sometimes "Google" gets it when PPRuNe can't. Probably just me ! Be rest assured Danny it's not just you. Many sites, government included, have absolutely appalling search engines. Pprune is a little better than some, but still not the best, the rest of us resort to Google as well.

[Chugalug2]

A new book written by Alan Turing's nephew, Dermot, is out now and titled X,Y, & Z (signifying the French, British, and Polish codebreakers). The author was interviewed on Radio 4's Today programme this morning. His main point was that the Poles should be given far more credit for their work in breaking Enigma than they have been hitherto. Well, point taken I guess, though I have always understood that they invented the techniques, especially the 'Bombas' that reverse engineered the military Enigma rotors, and that Turing simply refined further.

What is new to me though is that far from disappearing after the defeat of Poland, the Polish team escaped to work together as decoders with the French Resistance in Southern France and Algeria, rather than their military counterparts who ended up with the British. Presumably the British knew about this and the extraordinary security threat it posed. Churchill's geese that laid his Golden Eggs could be exposed at any time by German Counter Intelligence in its own back yard. It seems we were luckier than we ever imagined that the secrets of Station X remained just that.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-06149-y

[Warmtoast]

Chugalug2

Fascinating - thank you.

F H Hinsley in the official history of British Intelligence in the Second World War mentions the Polish contribution to early codebreaking as below:


For the bodies charged with producing intelligence the outbreak of war nevertheless presented the opportunity, hitherto lacking, to lay the foundations for their eventual success in providing decisive intelligence on a scale undreamed of in the first months of the war; and this was especially the case with GC and CS and the photographic reconnaissance (PR) organisation. GC and CS had established before the war began that, unlike their Italian and Japanese counter-parts, the German Army, Navy and Air Force used for all except their tactical wireless traffic different versions of the same electro-mechanical cypher machine - the Enigma. As late as July 1939, however, it could hold out little hope of mastering the machine. Nor was this an unduly gloomy judgment. The Enigma, which had appeared on the commercial market in the early 1920's, had been modified before being adopted by the German armed forces at different dates between 1926 and 1935, and had thereafter been subjected to further modifications. By 1939 the Germans believed that they had made it secure against all but local and temporary compromise in the event of capture; and they had indeed made it the basis of a set of related but different cyphers which presented formidable obstacles to the cryptanalyst.
Each of the services had different keys for the machine, that is different arrangements of its wheels and interconnecting plugs. Each of them also used different keys for different purposes or in different areas; GC and CS was eventually to identify nearly 200 keys, and at some stages in the war as many as 50 different keys were to be in force concurrently. Most elements of each key were changed regularly to give a different setting, and from the beginning of the war most settings were changed daily. Permutation of the elements - of the choice and order of the wheels and of the arrangements of the plugs - allowed millions of different settings for each key each day. But the Germans were unaware, as was GC and CS until 1939, that the Poles had reconstituted the Engima as early as the end of 1932 and had solved Army settings regularly, and other settings from time to time, between 1933 and 1938.
The Poles had achieved this success with brilliant mathematical ingenuity, but by methods they would have been unable to devise but for the fact that the French Secret Service had supplied them with material obtained from Hans-Thilo Schmidt, a German employee of the cypher branch of the German Army; it consisted of two instructional manuals for the Enigma in 1931 and, during 1932, copies of several monthly lists giving daily settings for the Army key. The Polish methods had surmounted all the changes made to the machine by the Germans up to the end of 1938, but from that date two further and more drastic modifications - a new indicator procedure and an increase from 3 to 5 in the number of wheels from which the 3 in use were selected - had put the continued exploitation of the Enigma beyond the resources of the Polish cryptanalysts.
In this situation and also, no doubt, because they were anxious about the approach of war, the Polish authorities, at meetings held in January and July 1939, divulged their results and described their methods to French and British delegations; and GC and CS received from them essential documents and, in August, a replica of the Enigma machine with its five wheels, the wiring of which had been re-constituted by the Poles. GC and CS had received from the French in 1931 a copy of the documents then given to the Poles. It had attached little importance to them, in all probability because little or no Enigma traffic was intercepted in the United Kingdom until German warships operated in Spanish waters during the Spanish civil war. Thereafter, while it had realized the possibility of solving keys by methods not dissimilar from those developed by the Poles, it had made no practical progress. But it immediately recognized what steps were necessary to apply the Polish data to the latest state of the Enigma. As soon as it received the wheel wirings it started work on developing the Polish methods.
These methods were two-fold, a hand method involving the preparation of perforated sheets and a method using a cryptanalytical machine, the 'Bombe', of which the Poles had constructed half a dozen by the end of 1938. The preparation of an improved version of the sheets, an onerous task, was not completed till November 1939 and a second copy of them was not ready for despatch to the Poles, who had moved to a base near Paris when the Germans invaded Poland, until January 1940. With this copy, however, the Poles obtained the first solution of any war-time Enigma setting on 17 January, and by 23 January GC and CS had solved settings for three further days. These four settings were those that had been in force on dates between 25 October 1939 and 17 January 1940. It was with similar considerable delays that the Poles and GC and CS, working in co-operation, solved by the end of March 1940 some fifty further settings for three keys - an Army administrative key, a GAF practice key and the general purpose operational key of the GAF. But GC and CS soon consolidated this first cryptanalytical advance of the war.
From a week after the outset of the German invasion of Denmark and Norway until the middle of May 1940 it solved continuously and almost always currently the daily settings of a key brought into force for that campaign (the Yellow key). The reasons for this success were that the key carried heavy traffic, the first to do so, and that the Enigma staff at GC and CS was increasing in size and experience. It was for the same reasons that, beginning on 22 May, GC and CS mastered the general purpose key of the GAF (the Red), which was solved daily and generally with little delay from that date till the end of the war. This success was achieved despite the fact that on 1 May the Germans had again changed the indicator system for all keys except the Yellow in such a way as to render the perforated sheets unusable: GC and CS had devised new hand- methods which overcame this set-back and enabled it to keep its grip on the Red key until the first electro-mechanical cryptanalytical machine became available in September 1940.
The Polish Bombe, like the perforated sheets, had been developed to attack the Enigma through its indicator systems. GC and CS, foreseeing that these systems would change, had from the time it received the Polish material set out to devise a more versatile machine. The first effective model, which had the power of at least 12 Polish Bombes, began working from early in August 1940. Thereafter, though their number increased only slowly, the machines, with their ability to produce faster solutions, gradually superseded the hand methods and were to be the mainstay of GC and CS's success in extending its mastery of the Red key to an ever increasing number of Enigma keys.
The regular reading of the Yellow key from mid-April and of the Red key from the end of May opened up to British eyes for the first time an intimate view of the organisation and methods of the German Air Force and, to a smaller extent, of the Army. But while the decrypts were from the outset invaluable for research purposes, they could not quickly be turned to account as a source of operational intelligence. They were full of code-names, pro-formas, and bewildering references to units and commands of which the intelligence authorities had acquired no previous knowledge. Not less important, they had become available so suddenly, not to say unexpectedly, that no provision had been made for the dissemination of their contents to British Commands with the degree of security that was essential when handling such a sensitive source. For these reasons no use could be made of them during the Norwegian campaign and they were of little operational value during the campaign in France.

[Chugalug2]

Indeed, Warmtoast, and all familiar stuff I'm sure. Apart from the throw away line that the Polish decoders were in Paris, following the fall of their own country, not a hint that they were to remain in France following the fall of that country.

As I say, all new to me, and it rather overrides our own preoccupations with protecting Ultra, ie by reconnaissance flights "discovering" Wehrmacht supply convoys that had already been revealed by Enigma, or prohibiting those in the know from entering operational areas. All rather pointless if others in the know were currently helping the Gestapo with their enquiries while under duress!

[Danny42C]

It is invidious to put forward any one "silver bullet" which won WWII for the Allies, but "Ultra" must come pretty close. I believe that, on occasion, Churchill had on his desk transcripts of Hitler's orders to his generals - before the general concerned had received it !

It was also miraculous that this vital secret was kept inviolate for 29 years after the war.

[Cazalet33]

Aptly described by the Brandy guy as "the golden goose which never cackled".

Oddly, considering the casus belli in the first place, the Poles never got any credit, nor were even allowed to work at/with Bletchley.

[Chugalug2]

There is something that doesn't quite add up here. What could these Polish codebreakers hope to achieve for victory over the Nazis and the liberation of Poland (OK, we now know what that led to but they didn't then) by remaining in occupied Europe? These were very intelligent people who knew full well that little other than minor tactical success by the French Resistance could be achieved by breaking Enigma for them in Vichy or in Occupied France. Of course, they wouldn't know what progress the British were making with Enigma, but whatever it was it could lead there to strategic successes that in turn could lead to final victory.

Was there an issue vis a vis them and the British? Had they decided we had betrayed them? If so, why didn't they feel the same about the French? Were they simply trapped there, with any attempt at escape (via the Pyrenees?) courting the danger of being captured and interrogated? Why hadn't we managed to persuade them to join us from the very start? Were the French hanging onto them simply to deny them to us? Unthinkable that one of course. Sorry!

Franek, can you help?

[Chugalug2]

Having followed my nose through Google, it seems that some did escape, and via the Pyrenees route that has already been the subject of posts here:-

On 8 November 1942, Allied (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allies_of_World_War_II) forces landed in French North Africa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Torch). When the French authorities there submitted to the Allies and broke with Vichy France, Germany occupied southern France (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_Anton).Major Bertrand, anticipating this outcome, evacuated Cadix on 9 November, two days before the German forces moved. The Cadix staff dispersed, attempting to reach Allied territory.Rejewski and Zygalski eventually crossed into Spain, where they were arrested and imprisoned. Released after Red Cross (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Cross) intercessions, they went to Britain. There they were employed by British intelligence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GC%26CS) until the war's end, against German SS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzstaffel) "hand" ciphers.Cadix's Polish military chiefs, Gwido Langer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwido_Langer) and Maksymilian Ciężki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maksymilian_Ci%C4%99%C5%BCki), were captured by the Germans as they tried to cross from France into Spain on the night of 10–11 March 1943. Three other Poles were captured with them, Antoni Palluth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoni_Palluth), Edward Fokczyński (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Fokczy%C5%84ski), and Kazimierz Gaca (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kazimierz_Gaca&action=edit&redlink=1). Langer and Ciężki became prisoners of war (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoners_of_war). The other three men were sent as slave labor to Germany, where Palluth and Fokczyński perished. All five men protected the secret of Allied decryption of the Enigma cipher.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadix

It appears that the five men mentioned at the end were not only brilliant codebreakers but brave ones as well. What a waste though that they were being shuttled around Paris, Algeria, and Southern France instead of joining Rejewski and Zygalski's successful, albeit belated, escape to Britain. They may or may not have contributed much there to the already successful efforts at Bletchley Park to prevail over Enigma, I don't know, but its secrets would have been much better safeguarded. As it is, we must celebrate the quiet courage of those five Poles and the typical efficiency of Nazi Counter-Intelligence.

[Franek Grabowski]

Tengah
I still cannot recall why the name Bruno Szota is familiar to me. The training in Karachi was mentioned by another airman from the group, who mentioned that they initially had to go to Burma or China, but were recalled to the UK. This is a misty part of the story, as I have not found any documents on it. Without doubt there were talks with Chiang about forming Polish units in China, but they ended with nothing. IIRC there were about 70 airmen in the group. They went via Persia and Iraq to India, where they boarded the ship.

Re Enigma
The Poles were simply not wanted at Bletchley Park, so they took up the French offer and worked in unoccupied zone of France intercepting German messages. Their most important achievement was use of probablity theory to decode messages, and creating decoding machines.

[Chugalug2]

Franek, thank you for explaining why the Polish decoders spent the war in France and not in the UK, but I am still rather confused. You say they did valuable work, but for who? Vichy France, the French Resistance? Presumably it was not for the Free French, who were in London. It said somewhere (wiki?) that they initially and understandably went to France to be with the Polish Army who had gone there to continue the fight. That got promptly knocked on the head by the sudden collapse of France. Many of the fighting Poles got away to Britain to fight the Germans from there, but not the decoders. Why?

Had they already been given the cold shoulder by the Brits? It seems unbelievable if that were so, as Bletchley was beginning to break Enigma (especially the Luftwaffe codes), and it would be obvious that to leave the Polish codebreakers behind in France could seriously compromise any future use of Ultra. Was their fate less determined by the British than by the French, in particular Major Gustave Bertrand, their 'host'? Like I say, it doesn't quite add up. Well, not to me at least...

[Franek Grabowski]

It seems Vengeances belonged to No 23 Anti-Aircraft Co-operation Unit.
Vultee Vengeance in Italy (http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?23508-Vultee-Vengeance-in-Italy)

Re Polish decoders
Following evacuation from Poland, they approached British embassy but were refused of help and turned to the French. Supported by Maj. Bertrand they decoded messages in France and then established secret decoding centre Cadix, where they tackled with German messages, then send to the UK. Ultimately ended in the UK, but not allowed to Bletchley. I do not know British reasoning behind this.

[steamchicken]

By June 1940, advancing German forces were approaching PC Bruno. Just after midnight on 10 June, Bertrand evacuated the Bruno staff from Gretz-Armainvillers. France surrendered on 22 June (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Armistice_at_Compi%C3%A8gne); on 24 June he flew the 15 Poles and seven Spaniards in three planes to Algeria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algeria).

To put it another way, Bertrand was among those who were planning on the French government moving to Algeria and fighting on from there, like the people aboard the ship Massilia (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massilia_(paquebot)). Accordingly, they flew out to Algeria.

What I don't understand about the story is who was getting the take from their activities. Before the evacuation they had a direct teletype link to Bletchley Park. Afterwards?

[Danny42C]

And there was me, thinking I knew the whole Vultee Vengeance story ! But in sunny India we knew little of what was going on in 1945 in Europe. We thought that all the Mk.IVs that came over to Europe went to UK and were used as TTs. Not so, it seems.

"(No 23) Anti-Aircraft Co-operation Unit" - that was exactly what No.20 Squadron at Valley was in 1949-51. Disbanded, a Civil AA Co-Operation Unit (Marshalls ?) set up in Llanbedr, took over our aircraft and our task.

Think 20 reformed with Hunters ....

Danny.

[Franek Grabowski]

Re Cadix
A radio link to the UK has been established, and worked for a while. I hope the link works, it provides some more information. The Enigma story deserves a good book, but I am not sure anybody is capable to tackle it. The only book available in English is rather old. Kozaczuk, Władysław (1984), Enigma: How the German Machine Cipher Was Broken, and How It Was Read by the Allies in World War Two.
https://translate.google.pl/translate?hl=pl&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fpl.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMarian_Rejewski

Re Vengeance
Such units and aircraft simply avoided attention of historians - no glamour!

[Geriaviator]

I am awed by this story of Marian Rejewski and his Polish colleagues. To think they were turned away by Britain … While most readers of this thread will know that Polish cryptologists played a very large role in discovering the secrets of Enigma, Franek's link tells the story of a brave and brilliant man whose achievements did not received the honour they deserved until long after the event.

[Chugalug2]

Thanks for the link Franek. So now we get to the nub of it and the British really messed up it seems. From your link :-

Wiki:-
In September 1939, after the outbreak of the war, (https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=pl&rurl=translate.google.pl&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kampania_wrze%25C5%259Bniowa&xid=17259,15700023,15700124,15700149,15700186,15700190,15700 201,15700214&usg=ALkJrhh3pz9YVWCiwVuM83O772QcCYKy4g) Rejewski and his colleagues from the Cipher Bureau were evacuated from Poland to Romania (https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=pl&rurl=translate.google.pl&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumunia&xid=17259,15700023,15700124,15700149,15700186,15700190,15700 201,15700214&usg=ALkJrhigcAEewjLTqE6DK6d-nAH-kJNKuw) . Together with Zygalski and Różycki, they escaped internment in the refugee camp, getting to Bucharest (https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=pl&rurl=translate.google.pl&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukareszt&xid=17259,15700023,15700124,15700149,15700186,15700190,15700 201,15700214&usg=ALkJrhjUxtWhZ7VkME20IKY0i60MI4dNPQ) , where they made contact with the British embassy. The British refused to help Polish cryptologists, therefore the next step was the French embassy, ​​where they introduced themselves as friends of Bolek (codename Gustave Bertrand). After receiving instructions from Paris, the embassy staff helped in the immediate evacuation of mathematicians to France, where they arrived at the end of September

That one arbitrary rejection by our Bucharest Embassy (no doubt overwhelmed by the evacuation of the Polish Army) condemned these brilliant men, to which the Allies and the occupied countries of Europe owe so much, to remaining in France following its occupation. How interesting that just when we thought we knew the whole Bletchley Park story it seems the most important people involved in breaking Enigma were never there though desperately wanted to be. Having finally escaped from the Nazis it was too late of course, for having spent all that time in both Vichy and occupied France they posed a potential security risk. The whole saga was a tragedy for them and for us, and a very serious threat to Ultra. All because of some FO apparatchik in Romania...

I agree with steam chicken though. The question remains. What were they doing in those years at Cadiz and who were they working for?

[Chugalug2]

From the BoB thread (it is still BoB Day BTW!):-

Wokkafans:-
The BBC are running an article, with a European side-story. It is rather tucked away though. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-45516556

An interesting 303 Squadron story about Josef Frantisek, a Czech ace on a Polish Squadron! An outsider by nature, the posting might well have suited him better than being posted to one of the Czechoslovak squadrons. Typical BBC, the closest you now get from them in celebrating the RAF's special day, it is really a plug for the new film 'Hurricane'. Nonetheless, a worthy tribute to a brave man credited with 17 confirmed and one probable, the highest score in the Battle. That greatly added to the other 303 Sqn Polish victories, making it the highest scoring Hurricane squadron in the Battle of Britain. As Dowding said (well almost), we couldn't have done it without them.

[Franek Grabowski]

Hello

Re Frantisek
Do not believe media! Frantisek was an excellent pilot with a keenness to fly and who caused some minot disciplinary problems as plenty of young pilots of the era. In 1939 he fled from the Protectorate to Poland, but instead of going to France like most of the Czech airmen, he decided to join the Polish Air Force with a number of his compatriots. He was one of few, who managed to take active part in combat operations, and then he was evacuated to France, and then to the UK. He and his pals at some point approached Czech mission, but they were called traitors or something similar, for joining the Polish Air Force, so they left, leaving few particularly warm words. Later in the war most of the Czech and Slovak airmen transferred to Czech AF, anyway, but it was too late for Frantisek. The other foreign pilot in No 303 was Josef Kana, a Slovak, who remained with the Polish Air Force for duration of the war, but has not achieved any successes. Aside, there is no clear evidence of Frantisek being a lone wolf and separating from the formation. Could be a myth actually.

Re Enigma
Cadix decoded German messages intercepted by them. I got your point, but not sure if I can help. The man who arranged this, Bertrand, was a French officer, but I am not sure for whom he was working, ie. if he was tied to de Gaulle (I doubt it) or Vichy or a conspiracy within Vichy but not related to de Gaulle. Those are quite mysterious stories, and I am not sure if they were properly researched. It is a little outside of my area, so my knowledge is quite limited, but I can tell you, that two Polish decoders served with Japanese army for the duration of the war, intercepting Soviet codes. This is a little known story.

[Chugalug2]

Franek, thank you for your valuable input on both issues; Frantisek and Cadix. You are absolutely correct by saying that we should not believe everything we read in the media, or even the settled conventional take on things. There is no better source than those who were there, witness Danny and his fellow posters, or those who have studied closely those who were there, witness yourself. That is the unique value of this very unique thread, and is the continuous link throughout it. Whatever Frantisek's combat techniques were, they clearly worked, and added greatly to the successful outcome of the Battle of Britain. I am not a revisionist and sincerely believe that had the outcome been otherwise we would have become another protectorate of Hitler's Reich.

As to Cadix (Cadiz?), this is clearly a known unknown. The French of WWII were a much divided people, with many factions ranging from full collaborationists, through armed resisters, to the Free French armed services, with the majority ranged between the two extremes, among whom were those who used the situation to settle old scores, indulge their racial prejudices, or simply seek more wealth or power. Vichy in particular harboured some very unpleasant people. Some of their military leaders were possessed of more than an average amount of arrogance. One thinks of General Giraud demanding total command of the invasion forces of Operation Torch and then taking no part at all when that was refused! The thought that a Polish team under Bertrand was breaking German, Italian, (and Allied?) codes at the physical centre of this maelstrom of intrigue and treachery is truly alarming, and is entirely new to me, as I say.

As to a Polish team breaking codes for the Japanese? Another blockbuster revelation! Much more about that please.

[Geriaviator]

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/419x476/old_tannoy_speaker_3b87a646be97dbb48e7528e346dff68e4dedc5dc. jpg

As a brief sideline from Franek's fascinating posts, here are more childhood memories from the 1940s RAF: anyone remember the Tannoy in those faroff days before pagers and mobile phones? Massive steel horns were installed on buildings and hangars around the station, while inside featured big wooden boxes with the Tannoy logo in fretwork across the speaker aperture. Messages were broadcast from station headquarters and if the wind was in the right direction could be faintly heard at Binbrook school a mile away.

At RAF North Coates in 1948, used for families awaiting MQ at Binbrook on our return from India, a couple of horns were installed on corner houses at each end of the Patch although Coastal Command and its Beaufighters had left two years before. Sixty years ago the families were clearly in need of a morale booster, so a record of the RAF March on a scratchy windup gramophone in front of the microphone was played at full volume at 0900 every Saturday morning.

[Franek Grabowski]

Chugalug
We were used during the communist period that the media lie, and it did not change. Like Trump or not, but fake news is reality. Whenever I see an article about Poland in British media, I wonder if I live in the same country.
As to sources, well, those who were there, I mean No 303, are all gone. They left a diary, filed in those hot days of September 1940, but it does not say everything. Very few of the surviving airmen had written memories, so I am afraid we could never learn the truth. Anyway, there is no evidence of Frantisek separating from a formation and going for a kill alone, unless the squadron formation broke. He and several pilots when left some ammunition after combat were going in the Channel direction, to finish any German still flying, and there is some evidence it was called Zumbach's Way or Method.
There is one thing that is usually not noticed in regard of No 303 and Polish and Czech or rather Czechoslovak pilots in general. At the end of August RAF started to suffer dangerous shortages of pilots, the replacements being too unexperienced to be put into combat. Right at the moment, No 303 went into action, and according to British and German witnesses, did it in unforgettable style, fiercely attacking and firing from extremelly short range. The effect was, that Fighter Command fully realised, that the exile airmen are no worse, and even better than the RAF ones. They also knew, that with two more Polish Squadrons, No 306 and No 308 being almost ready to combat, and with reserves which allowed to form further three complete squadrons with groundcrew (there were shortages of those as well) and other auxillary services, there is a necessary reserve to survive until winter, when the weather is poor. So, they could send all the RAF squadrons available into combat, knowing that they could be replaced.

Re Cadix, this is the name appearing in all Polish books. The French WWII history was for several years a touchy political subject, and there was a lot of bias in the research for the past 70 years. Also Anglo-American policy took its tall. There are lots of mysteries and unanswered questions, but hopefully more balanced view will emerge with time.
In regard of TORCH, try to obtain the book of this man. I have read the Polish version, and it is absolutely fascinating, and the man was not bragging, his role being confirmed in other sources.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mieczys%C5%82aw_Zygfryd_S%C5%82owikowski
The Cadix team was breaking Axis codes, no foul play on Allies, but some testing of Polish codes in use. At least that is what is known.
The Polish code breakers in Manchuria is virtually unknown story. It was an effect of very long Polish-Japanese cooperation starting before WWI, which went into full swing in 1920s, and aiming Soviet Union. This did not stop after break up of WWII, but the full story was never told. The problem is that the period of communism in Poland virtally stopped historical research for two basic reasons. Commies did not want to portray activities of the pre-war and wartime legal Polish governemnt in positive way, and in turn, nobody wanted to provide commies with any information that they could use. Hence there is plenty of stories and a number of larger than life characters that remain unknown even to experts.

[Danny42C]

Geriaviator (#12281),

Well do I remember "Tannoy" ("Stand by for Broadcast !") Two memories ...

I forget where, but some routine message had to be Tannoyed from the Guardroom. The Corporal was busy, and told a defaulter to do it. "Stand by for Broadcast", this lad started - and then dried up. At max volume round the Station then rang out: "What the F*** do I say now ?"

Leeming, shades of night are falling. From top Tower I make a welcome announcement: "Night Flying for tonight is Cancelled, I say again ..."

The Station's roar of delight was strong enough to be heard through the triple-glazing of the octagon !

[MPN11]

Ah, the thrill of being Local Controller and broadcasting to the whole Station! I did it rarely, have no idea what or why, but it gave one a feeling of omnipresence!!

[Geriaviator]

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x609/hurricane_polish_2840fe9477f68c86fa1405f731af3e8de04a8019.jp g

With Franek's posts very much in mind, I found this fine photo while searching for pictures of a Tannoy. It shows Squadron Leader S. Pietraszjewicz of 315 (Deblinski) Squadron with his Hurricane shortly after the squadron was founded at RAF Acklington, January 1941. In March they moved to Speke to provide fighter cover over Merseyside, and in July they moved south to Northolt and converted to Spitfires to carry out offensive sweeps over northern France. The squadron was disbanded in 1947.

[Franek Grabowski]

Petro! I knew a number of pilots of the Squadron from the later period. All gone.
And here is another well known airman. :)


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/672x960/19060053_241389326348226_2488532527016640594_n_814d4050e856f 91ef18d6e220b04332157f72f69.jpg

[Chugalug2]

Geriaviator, a fine picture indeed and a reminder that the Royal Air Force then was a very cosmopolitan mix of British, Commonwealth/Empire, USA, European, plus other aviators and engineers. It is difficult sometimes for we, the hosts of that eclectic mix , to understand fully the experiences and motivations that brought them all to the UK, but come they did. We need to remember that the final victory was theirs as much as it was ours. In many of those countries the passage was ordained by official process whereby volunteers and drafted alike were trained and transported in vast numbers from the four corners of the world.

For the occupied nations of Europe though it was very much up to each individual as to the stance, let alone the action, to take. It is a tribute to them that so many took the decision to re-join the fight in order to defeat the Axis and thus liberate their own country. Of all those countries the greatest contribution was made by Poland, and the Royal Air Force owes them in particular a great debt of gratitude. That they and the other Eastern Europe countries were plunged from Nazi domination into Communist domination is the tragic irony of their service and sacrifice for freedom. The civil population may herald them as skilled plumbers, builders, dentists, whatever, but anyone who was privileged as I was to serve alongside them in the Cold War views them with respect and affection. We should always remember that debt, that sacrifice, and as a Service celebrate it, especially at this time of year.

Franek, thanks again for your observations re 303 etc stepping in to let UK squadrons go all out as Autumn 1940 became winter. It was very much a case of being in the right place at the right time with the right people. It was, as the good Duke almost observed, a damn close run thing! Your mention of Major Mieczysław "Rygor" Słowikowski and the link to his story reminds us the Polish contribution to the Allied War Effort was not restricted to aviators by any means. The fighting Poles all punched above their weight, but Rygor was even by their standards a very special case. Respect!

The poster of Franciszek Grabowski says it all. A determined man set upon a mission. As you say, it is sad that politics and policy have got in the way of learning more about such men behind the official versions and statistics. All the more reason to garner as much as we can. Time is of the essence!

[FantomZorbin]

Chugalug2. Your eloquent post perfectly encapsulates our debt to these people … as you say, "Respect" :D:D

[Slow Biker]

Whilst clearing out some 'stuff'' I came across a document given to me by a friend of a friend; it is an informal record of the flights of Mosquito DZ589 serving on 105 Sqn between July '43 and January '44. It details date, crew, 'duty' and time up, time down and brief details of the mission. There are some interesting points: Flt Lt Muirhead DFM, awarded I imagine before commission; WO Gordon DFC, not DFM. The targets are self explanatory: bomb dump at map ref, Emden, Duisburg etc. I have no idea who drew up the list but there is a hand written note: Please give this to Cliff. It's 'his' mozzie's record. An interesting piece of history that illustrates a very small part of those days.

On another note, the picture of the Tannoy speaker reminded me of the time we passed through Habbaniya after GW1. We were taken to what appeared to be the OM, it was just like the 60s RAF. Eau de nil paint, Crittall window frames and steel conduit to the old metal light switches. A few shabby sofas completed the scene. I doubt if the place had been touched since the RAF left. My uncle served there in the '30s, I'm sure he would recognize the place.

[MPN11]

Ha! My late Nearly-Father-in-Law (late 70s) ran the Riding Club at Habbaniya pre-WW2 as a WOp/AG :D

There's a lot of RAF history still lurking out there.

[Franek Grabowski]

Chugalug
I would say that the problem is with lack of knowledge. People, who spend their lives in normal countries and make decisions by their choice do not realise, what it is like to loose your home country, being not able to return, to live with fear about relatives, having no information from them. They also cannot realise what communism is, and where it leads. Of course, politicians are to blame, I recall some descriptions of reaction of RAF airmen on hearing on Yalta.
That said, we have in both countries lots of forgotten and unknown heroes, that is without doubt. Nonetheless I think that the Polish experience and tragedy caused people to act and live in most unusual circumstances, making their lives most fascinating. For an average British hero there was a relatively short period of fight and glory, and then he could settle down, and sip ayle in a pub, remembering the past. For several Poles, there was no such end, but continuous fight.
If you have not read it yet, you can have a look on my book on Skalski. I hope it shall be interesting for you.
And if we divert to some nostalgia, how about that? Anyone recognises the place?
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1800x1350/dr9_c08600bdee1a937ec0e529f6f7932c5108f430e7.jpg

[Chugalug2]

Franek, I responded to your post but my work was eaten by the PPRuNe dog, so I'll try again! What you say about those who didn't experience occupation not being able to understand those who did, particularly those who couldn't return even after the 'liberation' of their homeland, has to be true but at least we can try! A sense of empathy is perhaps easier when one lives and works alongside such people. That was the case in the post-war RAF of course. The national squadrons and units were disbanded and those who chose 'remain' were integrated into the RAF proper. In that way they ceased to be separate and different but fellow colleagues, albeit with accents varying from better than My Fair Lady standard to almost incomprehensible. :ok:

As to the picture it is nowhere that I recognise but the structure and the style is reminiscent of some buildings in Malta. Could it be at Luqa or Hal Far? As to its purpose I can only guess. Was it a squadron HQ or an Officers Mess? The only one I stayed in was the Luqa Transit Mess, which it certainly isn't!

Is the sign above the entrance a clue? Is it a Maltese Falcon?

Sorry! :E

[Franek Grabowski]

Chugalug
Well, I mean the more general audience, but I have noted many times, that western people simply could not believe German and Soviet terror, and total absurdity of the communist system. I must note, that RAF behaved well at the time, up to the standard, and not like some politicians or organisations.
The picture is PAF Faisal, formerly RAF Drigh Road, I think it is living quarters for unmarried officers, some villas being to the right of it. Officers' Mess is just to the left.
Do you feel the ghost of Lawrence of Arabia?
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1800x1350/dr10_ee8da171c6ef15d3fa76c9b607855e12740c8637.jpg

[Chugalug2]

Well I was close, just the odd 4000 miles out, plus or minus :O

RAF Architecture is a subject in its own right, whether domestic or overseas. It would be interesting if Drigh Road was unique, or of a regional style, or even of a standard style. As I previously posted, it is reminiscent of Maltese RAF buildings of that era. Here for example, trolled from Google, copyright R E Flagg, is one at RAF Halfar :-

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x683/20141203_hal_far_70_002_4_orig_f858b08da9f984218026fa4a81647 bb2fafb14f5.jpg


OK, even I can see the style is rather different but is it possible that a local style was applied to otherwise standard layouts? If these worldwide RAF Stations were built at UK taxpayers expense then one can assume they were standardised for cost effectiveness purposes alone. Of course if they were paid for by others (the Indian Government as was, for example?) then that would not necessarily apply. The period of construction would have a great effect of course. Early UK RAF stations are of a different style to the ones of the 30s expansion period for example. When Halfar, or for that matter Drigh Road were laid down, and/or expanded, would be interesting in that regard.

The point of your picture being that Polish pilots served at PAF Faisal post war and your picture shows their accommodation there, I assume Franek?

[MPN11]

Hal Far was, of course, built as an RN flying station, so may have used a different set of plans provided by the Admiralty. ;)

However, thinking of the Barrack Blocks and Officers Mess at Tengah, there is a general 'tropical' style involving external corridors.

[Chugalug2]

Good point about Halfar starting out as FAA rather than RAF, MPN11. Also take your point about there being a generic tropical style of verandas, etc. Here is an aerial view of Changi, which was built for the Royal Artillery by the Royal Engineers:-

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1072x757/changi_camp_2_6af86b0f5cac9cca378aba4dbcb5306f9c2e79e1.jpg

[MPN11]

Not to be confused with RAF Takali (Ta’ Qali) ... there the station was mainly Nissen huts, now used by the Ta’ Qali Craft Village! An odd place from which to be operating jet aircraft!! ;)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ta%27_Qali

[Chugalug2]

As Takili became an RAF Station in 1940, I imagine Nissen Huts would be quite a luxury. Ask Danny! :)

I see your link mentions 249 Squadron, whose Wiki link has them flying in with Hurricanes (courtesy of the Royal Navy) and doing much good work with them as well as with Spitfires later. They included one Buzz Beurling, who did excellent work it is rumoured! :-

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._249_Squadron_RAF

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/220x186/220px_raf_ta_kali_aerial_photo_1942_9c55fcfb4f6e96f2664bb3c4 dc54df6cf4054a50.jpg

Bomb cratered RAF Takili

[Danny42C]

Chugalug,They included one Buzz Beurling, who did excellent work it is rumoured! :-
He did indeed ! Google "George ("Screwball") Beurling". Very successful Canadian fighter pilot in the defence of Malta: his advice to others was: "Estimate the deflection you need - then double it !"

Worked for him, 31 kills, (DSO, DFC, DFM and Bar). Later killed in an accident, I believe.

[MPN11]

Having wandered on a couple of occasions in recent years around the Ta’ Qali Craft Village, and the Malta Air Museum, it was really weird to try to visualise what it must have been like to be stationed there. One got so attuned to the Gaydon Scheme RAF stations in the UK, it was quite a jolt to realise it wasn’t all like that. RAF Takali was BLEAK!!

At least RAF Sopley (Southern Radar and Joint Area Radar School) had SeCo huts, and was green! Of course, Danny42C missed that luxury experience ;)

[Fareastdriver]

This is an IWM pictures of Drigh Road.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=raf+drigh+road&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4GGHP_enGB750GB750&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=eqAKCiKLCqZZhM%253A%252CYm2wjoA5dkYlnM%252C_&usg=AFrqEzdWB62HNlfDzIFXW72nbWZBXOBgXA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjU4pX0qMrdAhWLDsAKHUbUAAkQ9QEwAXoECAQQBA#imgrc=Et qSiEtAKPzi7M:&spf=1537471855503

[esa-aardvark]

Hello Fareastdriver,
my Father assembled the Vultee Vengeance, and often mentioned Drigh road. Same place ?

[MPN11]

Some nice pics there, Fareastdriver (https://www.pprune.org/members/155730-fareastdriver) ... and I see Franek's picture has made the listing! Enough Vengeance imagery to get Danny42C interested, too!

[roving]

And there is one of T E Lawrence who was stationed there in 1927 as an AC2 Aircraft Fitter.

http://www.telstudies.org/discussion/images/tel_karachi_1927_s.jpg

[Danny42C]

MPN11 (#12300),

Not at all - and Seco huts were a step up from half a Nissen hut (and centrally heated, too, if you were lucky) !

Bamboo "basha" in Burma best of all. No mod cons !

re: (#12303), some points:

(from the IWM pics put in by FED below). Never knew Karachi, up in NW, It gets cold there in winter, blues still worn a lot. Noted A.M. Arjan Singh DFC; as a Sqn Ldr he had a Hurricane squadron of the IAF near us in the Arakan.

The strange (well known) pic of a VV pilot cockpit panel (certainly not a Mk.I-III, must be a Mk.IV, but it is weird). Peter C. Scott's "Vengeance!" uses a line drawing of this as his illustration of a VV panel in one of the Appendices.

Two chaps have got lucky (there were no British women's forces in India - WRNS were in Ceylon only). But there were Q.A.s as here (and of course P.M.R.A.F Nursing Services), but they were rare and much sought after.


esa-aardvark (#12302),

Think the original batch of CKD Vengeances were assembled at Mauripur, maybe later at Drigh Road. Could be wrong. Did your Dad ever you tell the tale of the first batches having to be assembled like giant three-dimensional jigsaw puzzles, as all the paperwork had been lost ? (we'd been flying the things for quite a while before we found that out).

I'd love to have had a chat with him. But back to the magnifying glass now !


roving (#12304)

Lawrence of Arabia; resigned his Colonel's Commission in disgust after WWI because the British Government welshed on the undertakings he had given (on their behalf) to the Arab kings in return for their support against the Turks and Germans (the consequences of that betrayal linger to this day).

Enlisted as a private soldier ("Gentleman Ranker") in the Army, they soon discharged him (too hot a potato ?). Joined the RAF as A/C T.E Shaw. Killed in a motorbike crash in 1935, riding his beloved Brough "Superior". Strangely enough, his wrist watch (with provenance in the form of a repair invoice to a "T.E.Shaw" at the "living out" address he then used) turned up on an "Antiques Roadshow" a few years ago.

Danny.

[MPN11]

The remains of RAF Takali/Ta' Qali, 2009, as the Craft Village ... <whimper>

https://i.imgur.com/LdMX9H3.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/GqTzs1d.jpg

[Danny42C]

MPN11 (#12306),

Only ever seen Ta' Qali from cattle class window of a 320 going into Luqa.
Ah, the dear old Nissen huts ! (these look quite decent, but must've been damned hot in summer).

[Wander00]

Someone mentioned the effects of occupation. A friend told us their village, just up the road from here, is still divided...between those that resisted and those that did not resist enough

[Geriaviator]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/509x231/aden_barrackblock_4620ed926d20761db4b7fb8a5578bd7b3aba47de.j pg
In comparison to Changi, here is the airmen's barrack block, one of three, RAF Khormaksar/Aden in 1951. Seats are along side of football pitch in foreground.

[Geriaviator]

PAVEL:
BBC report this morning covers Bletchley Park's tribute to the Polish cryptographers who first cracked the Enigma machine.Computer historians have staged a re-enactment of World War Two code-cracking at Bletchley Park.A replica code-breaking computer called a Bombe was used to decipher a message scrambled by an Enigma machine.Held at the National Museum of Computing (TNMOC), the event honoured Polish help with wartime code-cracking. Ruth Bourne, a former wartime code-cracker who worked at Bletchley and used the original Bombes, oversaw the modern effort.

Enigma machines were used extensively by the German army and navy during World War Two. This prompted a massive effort by the Allies to crack the complex method they employed to scramble messages.

That effort was co-ordinated via Bletchley Park and resulted in the creation of the Bombe, said Paul Kellar who helps to keep a replica machine running at the museum. Renowned mathematician Alan Turing was instrumental in the creation of the original Bombe. "During the war, they had about 200 Bombes," said Mr Kellar. "It was a real code-breaking factory. "For its re-enactment, TNMOC recruited a team of 12 and used a replica Bombe that, until recently, had been on display at the Bletchley Park museum next door.

The electro-mechanical Bombe was designed to discover which settings the German Enigma operators used to scramble their messages. As with World War Two messages, the TNMOC team began with a hint or educated guess about the content of the message, known as a "crib", which was used to set up the Bombe. The machine then cranked through the millions of possible combinations until it came to a "good stop", said Mr Kellar. This indicated that the Bombe had found key portions of the settings used to turn readable German into gobbledygook. After that, said Mr Kellar, it was just a matter of time before the 12-strong team cracked the message.

Ms Bourne said authentic methods had been used by the modern code-breakers but the effort lacked the over-riding stress and tension that accompanied the wartime work. "During the war, there was a feeling of great pressure because the Enigma [encryption] keys changed at midnight so everyone was pushing to get enough information before it went out of date," she told the BBC."The only high spot was when your machine happened to find the 'good stop' and you felt pleased about that," she said.

Work on cracking the Enigma machine was greatly aided by Polish cryptographers, said Mr Kellar. Friday's event commemorated 80 years since that information was shared with the Allies. In addition, he said, the early stages of the code-cracking re-enactment were broadcast live to a Polish supercomputer conference in Poznan.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-45600275

[Franek Grabowski]

I do not think Nissen Huts were comfortable in any conditions.

As to Vengeances, I guess they were put together at RAF Drigh Road. There were Maintenance Units there, and a large storage area in an airship hangar, approximately where is PAF Museum now. During the RPAF period there were two Maintenance Units operating, No 101 & 102, responsible for overhauling engines and airframes.

Re Lawrence, I think he was photographed in one of those buildings.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1800x1350/dr4_9ad0bc04e96a8f66a329b4132b418c74ff277ead.jpg

[esa-aardvark]

Hello Danny,
yes my father mentioned missing instructions. Also mentioned having to set up engine carburetors
whilst not having the essential airflow bench, ie trial and error. Still the engines must have worked for you.
John

[Danny42C]

esa-aardvark (#12312) (https://www.pprune.org/members/174073-esa-aardvark) yes my father mentioned missing instructions.
So it was true ! - it was a case of "this bit looks as if it ought to go on there, Fred"Still the engines must have worked for you.
"Up to a point, Lord Copper !"

Danny,

[Chugalug2]

That is some barrack block at Khormaksar, Geriaviator! Did they get the plans from the Nazi Strength Through Joy Prora Holiday Camp? Nice verandas for the first two floors, but none for the top floor. No doubt reserved for transit personnel, the usual default. :ok:

My theory about standard layouts but with local variations seems now to be disproved entirely. Looks increasingly as though the designs were purely regional at best, if not one offs. Were there any other MEAF blocks like the Khormaksar ones?

[Chugalug2]

Franek, the Cadix operation in Vichy France still intrigues. Wiki has a page devoted to Polish Intelligence and briefly mentions that the Polish, French, and Spanish cryptologist work continued at Cadix following the Fall of France, but again fails to say what that work was! However the article generally gives some idea of the immense amount of work done in Europe and North Afica at the time, in particular in Algeria, paving the way for Operation Torch, in France reporting on U-Boat operations and of the Wehrmacht prior to and during Operation Overlord , and from Poland itself reporting the date of Barbarossa, the crimes at Auschwitz, and of V1 and V2 development. Altogether almost half of all reports received by British intelligence during WWII were of Polish origin.

The final paras sum up the debt owed but scarcely acknowledged and even denied :-

Historians' efforts to gain access to documentation of other Polish intelligence operations met with British stonewalling and with claims that the pertinent Polish archives had been destroyed by the British.More recently, the British and Polish governments have begun jointly producing an accurate account of the Polish intelligence contribution to Britain's war effort. The key Anglo-Polish Historical Committee (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Anglo-Polish_Historical_Committee&action=edit&redlink=1) Report on the subject was published in July 2005. It was written by leading historians and experts who had been granted unprecedented access to British intelligence archives. The report concluded that 43 percent of all reports received by British secret services from continental Europe in 1939-45 had come from Polish sources


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Polish_intelligence_services

No doubt Cadix played a significant part in all this, but what part?

[ian16th]

That is some barrack block at Khormaksar, Geriaviator! Did they get the plans from the Nazi Strength Through Joy Prora Holiday Camp? Nice verandas for the first two floors, but none for the top floor. No doubt reserved for transit personnel, the usual default. :ok:


I have vague memories of spending 3 nights 'In Transit' at Khormaksar, sleeping on a balcony. C1960.

[Franek Grabowski]

Chugalug
I forgot about the book. I will try to check it, unless it is packed deep.
Franek

[Chugalug2]

Geriaviator, on closer inspection it seems the upper floor of your Khormaksar Barrack Block has railed balconies above the columned verandas beneath. Was that perhaps where you slept c1960, ian16th? I too have vague memories of Khormate! It would have been mid 60's and I recall as a visitor watching a movie at the OM in the open air, as was the norm in ME/FE. Half of the OM members were watching it with me, the other half on armed duty and protecting us.

Thanks Franek. I'm sure I'm not the only one to discover with surprise that Ultra was being worked in Continental Europe under the very noses of the enemy, as well as at Bletchley Park.

[ian16th]

Was that perhaps where you slept c1960, ian16th?

Might have been, but I really have very little recollection of it now.
The 3 nights were in 2 parts of 1 and 2 nights, on the way to and from Karachi.
On the way out, I was concentrating on getting out to buy a duty free 100mm lens.
On the way back, we were all suffering from Delhi Belly, 6 guys were put in SSQ and the rest of us told by our M.O. to rest and drink lots of fluids.
A voice says, 'Does that include beer Doc?'
The reply was, 'Yes, beer is fine.'
So we spent the next day at the NAAFI Club at Steamer Point following Dr's orders.
It was the only time I saw Aden. Not sorry.
But I did see more of Karachi. :sad:

[Geriaviator]

Fortunately we didn't live in barrack blocks, Chugalug, we had the luxurious MQ pictured below. The three airmen's blocks (from memory 66 years later :bored:) had ablutions in centre of each floor with 20/24 beds in room either side, NCO single room at each end. I don't think anyone slept on balconies, it was probably just as uncomfortable inside or out.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/872x252/khormaksar_167_west_553e67d0c6d30b5de28a4cfd2ac45e9dcc77bb39 .jpg

[Geriaviator]

Last weekend's Sunday Times carried a touching tribute to the four Garland brothers who died while serving in the RAF in WW2. The first was awarded the Victoria Cross for his attack on the Maastricht Bridges in 1940 when most of 12 Sqn's Fairey Battles were shot down.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/how-the-four-garland-brothers-sacrificed-their-lives-for-the-raf-during-the-second-world-war-p570c809x?shareToken=38db70785293f74cbed70dad2daf6971

[Danny42C]

Geriaviator (#12231),

A noble story, marred by one thing - Garland and Gray got VCs. The gunner (I do not know his name) got nothing. He was not part of the decision-making process, and so did not have to be brave to get killed, apparently.

Makes the blood boil.

[Prangster]

My stepfather flew 68 bomber ops progressing from WOP/AG on 3rd Sept 39 to Lanc pilot via squadron signals leader. He converted at Canadian Schools and I would love to see his service record, as a mere stepson would I be allowed access? Incidentally I finished up as his C.O but that's another story!

[thegypsy]

I think you will find it has to be next of kin.

[Warmtoast]

My stepfather flew 68 bomber ops progressing from WOP/AG on 3rd Sept 39 to Lanc pilot via squadron signals leader. He converted at Canadian Schools and I would love to see his service record, as a mere stepson would I be allowed access? Incidentally I finished up as his C.O but that's another story!

Details of how to access Service Records can be found here:
https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records/apply-for-someone-elses-records

[SimonK]

Hello guys and especially Danny.....I was sent here by chugalug from a thread in the main forum I started about my side hobby, collecting and researching WW2 pilots flying logbooks. I’m a massive history nut and a retired RAF helicopter pilot from 5 years ago, now a commercial pilot. I was given a couple of musty old logbooks a few years ago by another commercial pilot here who was about to throw them away and I am so glad he didn’t!

They were a pair to a Coastal Command Blenheim pilot (missions over Norway) and subsequently Beaufighters, including missions from Malta and aerial combat over the Bay of Biscay, with several kills before he was reported missing himself. I’ve been researching his history and have only scratched the surface, but I’ve found some really interesting things out about Fg Off RG Stringer and I’d be happy to post some photos up if anyone is interested, to maybe lead us onto finding out a bit more about him?

I also have a good sized collection of Luftwaffe pilot/aircrew logbooks with some absolutely fascinating entries, including pilots who flew countless JU87, Me109, FW190, Ju88, Ju188, He111, Do17/217 and Me262 missions. Let me know if anyone is interested, if not I’ll get back in my box :)

[ancientaviator62]

SimonK,
dismantle the box and post away. I am sure our CO , Danny , would agree.

[Chugalug2]

Ah, I see you've already made it to our virtual crew room, Simon. Make yourself at home, sorry about the tea mug, its one of the less chipped ones for what it's worth. As aa62 says, no boxes allowed here to climb into, merely the myriad styles and shapes of battered armchairs to slump into instead. No not that one though, if you don't mind, that's Danny's. He should be along soon, but his seniority in every sense of the word means soon might just be awhile, if you see what I mean.

In the meantime just take a look around. You'll see that the crew room at first sight takes on the appearance of a bog standard WWII Nissen hut, yet somehow has the ability to accommodate all who enter it. The reason is a bit complicated. Suffice it to say that it is all explained by the Black Hole Theory. Most appropriate you might think...

[FantomZorbin]

It was the only time I saw Aden. Not sorry.
Nimrod out of Malta heading eastwards down the Med. checks in with an ATCC at a reporting point, after the ATCC acknowledges the call:
"M***** this is Aeroflot**, have any of your crew served at Aden?" (in perfect English).
Much consternation on board the Nimrod!! The captain asks his crew, one has …
"Aeroflot** M*****, yes, one of my crew has served in Aden".
"M*****, now we know why you left!"

[Chugalug2]

Geriaviator, your Khormaksar home was very Bauhaus style! If it were in the Home Counties it would now be worth a bomb. Given where it was though it has probably already received one!

[Warmtoast]

Re Accommodation

My first posting was to RAF Thornhill (5 FTS) S. Rhodesia 1951 - 1953.

Airmen's Billets were named after RAF VC's i.e. Ward, Reid etc. Photo 1 shows outside and Photo 2 inside of one of the Signals Section billets. With sixteen beds per billet, occupancy varied as men were posted in or out.

WT

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x475/reidbillet1_zpsce8020e6_ceae00d065581e8b65ba0df36f15dd8e5b9e 9512.jpg

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x495/thornhill_20_20ward_20billet_20_20interior_20view_zpsgfvb5tz 1_8c2c41e299da92f9de71fb8bfa7a9569c850b57a.jpg

[Warmtoast]

Geriaviator (#12231),

A noble story, marred by one thing - Garland and Gray got VCs. The gunner (I do not know his name) got nothing. He was not part of the decision-making process, and so did not have to be brave to get killed, apparently.

Makes the blood boil.

Only 26 RAF personnel were awarded the VC in WW2 as commemorated in the roll of honour in St Clement Danes - see here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Victoria_Cross_recipients_of_the_Royal_Air_Force#/media/File:Recipients_of_the_VC_in_the_RFC-RNAS-RAF.jpg

[MPN11]

I like the picture of The Queen on the locker. Very patriotic lad!

[Danny42C]

SimonK (#12326),

Grand (?) Old Man Danny retires early and sleeps late these days, so a bit late in seconding Chugalug's welcome for you into our happy band in our cybercrewroom of nostalgia.

Now I am intensely interested with your logbook of a Ju87 pilot: I can read German with fair ease, and already have:

"CONVERSATIONS WITH A STUKA PILOT
CONFERENCE FEATURING PAUL-WERNER HOZZEL BRIG. GENERAL (RET.)/ GERMAN AIR FORCE AT THE NATIONAL WAR COLLEGE NOVEMBER, 1978"

which I will get round to reading when I have the time.

I shall PM you about the Stuka logbook. As for the rest of your collection, I would suggest that the IWM would be grateful for them.

Danny.

[Warmtoast]

I like the picture of The Queen on the locker. Very patriotic lad!

My pit was not so patriotic. Very small photo of my girlfriend on the locker door. Pinups were tolerated, but were suitably decorous as they were in those days - so nothing too exciting!

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/470x640/thornhill_20_20ones_20pit_zpspqgxnhyo_54744daa4b4e712eb41e01 67fe8aeef9e8f5c70e.jpg

[MPN11]

[QUOTE=Warmtoast;10258770]My pit was not so patriotic. Very small photo of my girlfriend on the locker door. Pinups were tolerated, but were suitably decorous as they were in those days - so nothing too exciting![QUOTE]

Is that girlfriend in the singular? She seems to have used a lot of hair colouring!! :)

[Fareastdriver]

The one on the locker door is fairly consistent.

The barrack blocks are exactly the same as the barrack blocks at RAF Heany or Llewellyn Barracks when I occupied them in 1958.

The same beds, wardrobes and lockers as well

[SimonK]

SimonK (#12326),

Grand (?) Old Man Danny retires early and sleeps late these days, so a bit late in seconding Chugalug's welcome for you into our happy band in our cybercrewroom of nostalgia.

Now I am intensely interested with your logbook of a Ju87 pilot: I can read German with fair ease, and already have:

"CONVERSATIONS WITH A STUKA PILOT
CONFERENCE FEATURING PAUL-WERNER HOZZEL BRIG. GENERAL (RET.)/ GERMAN AIR FORCE AT THE NATIONAL WAR COLLEGE NOVEMBER, 1978"

which I will get round to reading when I have the time.

I shall PM you about the Stuka logbook. As for the rest of your collection, I would suggest that the IWM would be grateful for them.

Danny.

Hi danny,

Thanks for the contact and it is an honour to speak to you on here sir. I am sorry if my post above was unclear, but I am not looking to get rid of any of my logbooks, I merely meant I would be happy to post scans/photos of any interesting pages for your interest in this thread. As an aside they have cost me a lot of money over the years (the Beaufighter pilots ones are the only ones I didn't pay for!) and many of them are utterly unique....sounds like there is some interest on here so I'll find some interesting bits and post them on this thread. As happens the Ju87 Flugbuch is utterly fascinating, as it covers an intense period of fighting on the Eastern front and the pilot is finally severely wounded after flying well over 200 missions. He writes a huge amount of detail and records gunners of his being killed, attacks on landing craft etc etc. It is written in a pretty unfathomable old fashion way of writing German called 'suetterlin', which is very hard to get translated or indeed read. Luckily a friendly German pilot over at another forum translated it for me, so I'll post some screenshots and explain what he wrote.

Anyway, all the best chaps and thanks for having me here.

[MPN11]

Welcome from me too, and a wee request for non-German speakers ... the odd translation (certainly at the outset) woukd be helpful!! We didn’t all do tours in RAFG/2ATAF!! ;)

I get the feeling that Flugbuch thing is a sort of scrapbook, as opposed to a flying logbook?

[Warmtoast]

[QUOTE=Warmtoast;10258770]My pit was not so patriotic. Very small photo of my girlfriend on the locker door. Pinups were tolerated, but were suitably decorous as they were in those days - so nothing too exciting![QUOTE]

Is that girlfriend in the singular? She seems to have used a lot of hair colouring!! :)

She was good-looking and as to using a lot of hair colouring I don't think so. I'm the ugly one!

WT
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x522/margaret_20t_20_201951_zpsshjxqd11_0aa861656c710870a1e24dfe6 8cb531970185113.jpg

[MPN11]

Oh, bless!

[SimonK]

Welcome from me too, and a wee request for non-German speakers ... the odd translation (certainly at the outset) woukd be helpful!! We didn’t all do tours in RAFG/2ATAF!! ;)

I get the feeling that Flugbuch thing is a sort of scrapbook, as opposed to a flying logbook?

Hello mate, not at all, exactly the same as an RAF logbook, although some Flugbuch were filled in by clerks as opposed to pilots/aircrew, What was interesting that the Germans did, that we didn’t, was the “Leistungsbuch” . I have one which comes with a matching Flugbuch to a Ju188 pilot and his Leistungsbuch records the detail of the mission he flew, including routing, bombload, enemy encountered etc etc. I guess to find that out in the U.K. you’d have to go into the ORB/F540 and intelligence reports whereas it is all in an individuals book. They are really rare and I only have the one, with a few scans of another one to my Me262 pilot recording his previous career flying Ju88s. I’m away from home at the moment but I’ll see if I can dig out some scans and post them up.

[MPN11]

OK, and copied. So "Flugbuch" is the logbook ... and the “Leistungsbuch” (power book, according to Google Translate) is what? A bit more elaboration on that aspect would be good, as it doesn't seem to have been a feature in my [brief] Mil flying career... or indeed mentioned here before. It sounds very interesting.

BTW, it's your turn to wash up already. Just saying. ;)

[SimonK]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1460x2000/fc136072_32d7_47be_9752_64ee15750179_91e9ebe4fea12482475cdaf 657228562601f9d76.jpeg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1460x2000/5abfe582_38c4_4466_81b2_622f347076ac_db374ed5c9f1c0909fca12e 4ec2a24fbc11fae26.jpeg
OK, and copied. So "Flugbuch" is the logbook ... and the “Leistungsbuch” (power book, according to Google Translate) is what? A bit more elaboration on that aspect would be good, as it doesn't seem to have been a feature in my [brief] Mil flying career... or indeed mentioned here before. It sounds very interesting.

BTW, it's your turn to wash up already. Just saying. ;)

Haha ok I’ll get my marigolds on! Actually “Leistungsbuch” really means “Performance book”. You see a lot of them for sale for German youth groups, like Hitler Youth etc. Tbh they are more interesting than a logbook for the reasons I described above, some of my Flugbuch are dry in the extreme with just takeoff time, etc listed, whereas others are filled with heaps of detail by the pilot....eg “shotdown by spitfire, parachute jump”....in German obviously ;) So a Luftwaffe Lesitungsbuch is really a mix of F540, intelligence report and logbook,

So I’ve attached two scans of the covers of Günther Kauschkes Flugbuch and Leistungsbuch and one of an entry in his Leistungsbuch. See if you can work out what it is saying......

[MPN11]

Interesting concept. Clearly an Official document. I recall my Boat-work logbook from Dartmouth which was vaguely similar ... with piquant comment from Bob McQueen about not using the same colour ink, etc. :)

Sadly neither my eyes nor linguistics take me any further, but I get the concept. One is a simple record of 'hours', if you will, and the other is 'what happened today.

i used to have to generate this sort of 'cr@p'

https://i.imgur.com/YVPl96u.jpg

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

Hello SimonK

Welcome to the Bearpit! You said in your other opening thread :

"The challenge is making someone else’s logbook, recorded full of amazing events, into an interesting and truthful read without elaboration"

Well, I agree with you, I tried it myself in these parts last year. It may (or may not be) of interest to you to see my attempt to record a complete stranger's log in this most challenging of threads (posts 11196 -11219, 28 Aug 2017- 5 Sept 2017) J E Lydall Log Book No. 2.

This, after trying to relate some time earlier in this most addictive of threads, what my late Dads' log had told me combined with other well-endorsed written records.
Now I, of course, wasn't present when this WW2 Thingy was going on, so I can only quote the the written records and what my old ex-WReN mother told me. (For those who might remember my previous interventions here, my mum passed away this April, on ANZAK Day.

So, now all 'my' WW2 Vets. Mum (RN) Dad (RAF) Stepdad (RNVR) Uncle (RN) and Godfather (RAF) are gone - I do (and will) remember them all.

Memories are so valuable, but not, sadly, infallible, cries of "revisionism" are heard when first hand stories versus recorded events are disputed, and I guess they always will be.
I will always trust my gut about what to believe, or not, for the rest of my days - it saddens me to think of the rubbish that others promulgated to influence my life when I was young and naive.
So bring it on - your logbooks will never have a more fascinated audience than those hereabouts.
Good Luck
IanBB

[SimonK]

Hi Ian,

I found a few of your posts on Lydall and what an amazing history he had.....funny but the logbook I was given that got me started was a very similar background of Blenheims and Beaufighters...funny old world! I’ll try and hi through the rest, fascinating, cheers.

[steamchicken]

The fields across the top of the "Leistungsbuch" (Book of Achievements or Performance Record Book would be a good translation) are from left to right:

Operational day serial number (you can see these are 1 through x - described as "Feindflug", flight in the face of the enemy, but the first record is actually two flights on the same day)
Evaluation as combat mission (not sure what this means but it seems to be a score - possibly out of 20, which is common in Germany for things like exams. note that it says "Frontflug" - flight over the front line - rather than "Feindflug" so I think this means it involved contact with the enemy)
Aircraft type (not surprisingly, Junkers 88 or 188)
Date
Time out/time back in
Flying time over enemy territory or potentially threatened territory, in minutes
Route
Depth of penetration into enemy territory, km
Contact with enemy fighters or flak
Results of the mission. For example: kill, observation of artillery fire, reconnaissance objective, bomb release (state the drop altitude, type of attack, number of passes over the target, whether or not photographic BDA available, etc)
Authentication: witness or authorising agency (these are all blank, because the previous 5 operational days with 10 flights were authenticated in bulk by the guy who signed across his stamp halfway down the page - a Senior Lieutenant and Command Staff Officer whose signature I can't read, whose stamp says "The accuracy of serials 1 to 5, 5 operational days and 10 combat missions, is hereby confirmed")

As an example, Serial 7 on the 10th of July, 1944 was assessed as a combat mission of grade 13. Yer man launched at 2258 in the Ju188 from Tiraspol for a mission via Kovel, Rovno, and Kasakin, returning to Tiraspol. Tiraspol/Terespol is in present day Moldova, dunno about Kasakin, but the other two way points are in western and central Ukraine. This took him over enemy territory for 3 hours 20 minutes to a depth of 330km. He was engaged by flak of all known calibres and illuminated by searchlights on 34 occasions (!). The aim of the mission was to get battle damage assessment photos (Zielwirkungsbild = "target effects image") of the Kasakin area. I *think* he reports engaging 30 motor vehicles (Kfz. = short for Kraftfahrzeug, motor vehicle) with the aircraft guns (Bordwaffen) but it could be the other way around. He arrived back in Tiraspol at 0300.

The next mission, 10, took a different, shallower route and seems to have been a tactical photo-reconnaissance task: he reports getting photography (LB = either Luftbild, aerial imagery, or Lichtbild, photography) of a 300 vehicle concentration in what I think is a grid square reference, 5135. Analyst comment: that sounds like one of the Soviet armoured divisions of the day, probably best start packing for the next move as they're maximum 130km away.

[Franek Grabowski]

Chugalug
Have the book in my hand now. Following a brief look, there is no more info on Bertrand than we already know. It is clear that he was at conflict with the British at times, but the decoded information was passed to the British, indeed. Cadix mostly decoded police or SS ciphers, also intercepted U-Boat communications, etc. A number of Poles, who were not in France, were employed on Sigint on the Soviet Union, listening to their communications and breaking their codes. Since late 1941 this was their exclusive job, and unbroken codes were then passed to Bletchley.

[Chugalug2]

Franek, I'm very much obliged for your continued attempt to satisfy my incessant questioning. I seem to remember that the original site near Paris had a landline teleprinter link to the UK, which greatly aided its security (as well as being encrypted of course). Presumably though no such facility was available in Southern France, so the link must have been by radio. Here we have yet another conundrum, that the Wehrmacht's weakness was having to use HF W/T and thus be liable to interception by the enemy. If we could do that then the Abwehr could too (and indeed its many rivals), and they did have some success with breaking certain British codes I think.

So my next poser is, what were they encrypting the messages in back to Britain? The same question of course would apply to the other sources in Poland, USSR, etc. At least at Cadix they were not under direct Nazi occupation, but it was under the Vichy regime, which was not renowned for its pro Allied stance. Did the Abwehr know that Enigma was being intercepted and broken in France? Did Canaris choose to cover that up, given his ambivalent attitude to the German war effort in general and the Nazi crimes in the East in particular. It is suspected that it was he who subverted Hitler's attempts to get Franco's agreement for the Wehrmacht to transit through Spain and thus take Gibraltar, and hence ensure control of the Mediterranean. Were the Spanish cryptologists at Cadix engaged in subverting that as well?

So many questions, so little time....:ok:

[SimonK]

The fields across the top of the "Leistungsbuch" (Book of Achievements or Performance Record Book would be a good translation) are from left to right:

Operational day serial number (you can see these are 1 through x - described as "Feindflug", flight in the face of the enemy, but the first record is actually two flights on the same day)
Evaluation as combat mission (not sure what this means but it seems to be a score - possibly out of 20, which is common in Germany for things like exams. note that it says "Frontflug" - flight over the front line - rather than "Feindflug" so I think this means it involved contact with the enemy)
Aircraft type (not surprisingly, Junkers 88 or 188)
Date
Time out/time back in
Flying time over enemy territory or potentially threatened territory, in minutes
Route
Depth of penetration into enemy territory, km
Contact with enemy fighters or flak
Results of the mission. For example: kill, observation of artillery fire, reconnaissance objective, bomb release (state the drop altitude, type of attack, number of passes over the target, whether or not photographic BDA available, etc)
Authentication: witness or authorising agency (these are all blank, because the previous 5 operational days with 10 flights were authenticated in bulk by the guy who signed across his stamp halfway down the page - a Senior Lieutenant and Command Staff Officer whose signature I can't read, whose stamp says "The accuracy of serials 1 to 5, 5 operational days and 10 combat missions, is hereby confirmed")

As an example, Serial 7 on the 10th of July, 1944 was assessed as a combat mission of grade 13. Yer man launched at 2258 in the Ju188 from Tiraspol for a mission via Kovel, Rovno, and Kasakin, returning to Tiraspol. Tiraspol/Terespol is in present day Moldova, dunno about Kasakin, but the other two way points are in western and central Ukraine. This took him over enemy territory for 3 hours 20 minutes to a depth of 330km. He was engaged by flak of all known calibres and illuminated by searchlights on 34 occasions (!). The aim of the mission was to get battle damage assessment photos (Zielwirkungsbild = "target effects image") of the Kasakin area. I *think* he reports engaging 30 motor vehicles (Kfz. = short for Kraftfahrzeug, motor vehicle) with the aircraft guns (Bordwaffen) but it could be the other way around. He arrived back in Tiraspol at 0300.

The next mission, 10, took a different, shallower route and seems to have been a tactical photo-reconnaissance task: he reports getting photography (LB = either Luftbild, aerial imagery, or Lichtbild, photography) of a 300 vehicle concentration in what I think is a grid square reference, 5135. Analyst comment: that sounds like one of the Soviet armoured divisions of the day, probably best start packing for the next move as they're maximum 130km away.

Thats absolutely superb, thank you sir! I do read a little German (nowhere near enough for a half-austrian though ;) ) and I’ve managed to work out a lot, but I find the old fashioned writing extremely hard to decipher, so I really appreciate any help. I’ll put up another shot of Kauschke’s Flugbuch, you will see he’s written a lot in there.....
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1460x2000/3009fa59_9dcf_437b_841d_f628713f1af8_4c38191a64c3c8d14d3b066 4a3622cc0745c1ce5.jpeg

[MPN11]

Thanks very much, steamchicken ... that clarifies a lot. More elaborate than the bare bones of the Log Book.

[Chugalug2]

I second MPN11's thanks, steamchicken. It seems that SimonK has a need of yet more decrypts for his Luftwaffe Flugbuchs and Leistungbuchs. Your further assistance in their translation would be greatly appreciated by all here, I'm sure.

Interesting that the very Nazi Luftwaffe (of all the three Wehrmacht services) should encourage such an old traditional form of German. But then everything was 'Volk' for them in that regard. Presumably it didn't frighten the horses.

I see they had running totals of distance flown as well as hours. A wonder they had anytime left over for the war, but sadly they did. It would be interesting to know what the Book of Achievements was used for. Did it feature in your annual report? Could you get promotion for a rollicking good read? I suspect the somewhat terse ones were a statement in their own right if so...

[Warmtoast]

Chugalug2 & Franek - Re Polish Codebreakers

A long but informative Wiki article here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biuro_Szyfr%C3%B3w

Marian Rejewski and Henryk Zygalski hiked over the Pyrenees with a guide (who robbed them at gunpoint) to the Spanish border, where they were arrested on January 30, 1943.[77] They were incarcerated by the Spaniards for three months before being released, upon Red Cross intervention, on 4 May 1943.[78] They then managed, by a circuitous land–sea–air route, to join the Polish Armed Forces in Britain,[79] Rejewski and Zygalski were inducted into the Polish Army as privates (they would eventually be promoted to lieutenant) and put to work breaking German SS and SD hand ciphers at a Polish signals facility in Boxmoor. Because of their having been in occupied France, the British considered it too risky to invite them to work at Bletchley Park
[from Kozaczuk, Wladyslaw (1984), Enigma: How the German Machine Cipher was Broken, and How it was Read by the Allies in World War Two, edited and translated by Christopher Kasparek, Frederick, Maryland: University Publications of America, ISBN 978-0-89093-547-7 A revised and augmented translation of W kregu enigmy, Warsaw, Ksiazka i Wiedza, 1979, supplemented with appendices by Marian Rejewski]

FWIW Boxmoor is near Hemel Hempstead in Hertfordshire.
WT

[Franek Grabowski]

Chugalug
The worst problem is, that I have limited knowledge on cryptography and this part of history, despite having a 1920 Polish Bolshevik war code breaker in my family - never knew him, though. Everything I can gather on this is from books and few papers I have, and there are really few books.
I have found some more information, making the situation even more complex. It seems that the British who initially refused help to the Polish code breakers, then wanted them for Bletchley Park, but it turned out the French took the care of them, and did not allow them to go. Hence Bruno and then Cadix centres. As to messages from Cadix, they were send by radio with single use codes send from the UK. Such codes are hard to break but slow in use, contrary to machine codes. The actual role of France during WWII is quite mysterious. It seems that quite a number of high ranked persons of Vichy were pro-Allied, but they were overshadowed by the Free French, who were rather keen to take over any glory.
I do not know anything about German code breaking, but as far as I know, knowledge on German intelligence is quite limited. I do not know if documents were lost or taken over and still classified.
Best wishes
Franek

[steamchicken]

The field headings are:

Purpose of flight - either Feindflug/operational or Überführung/positioning
Take-off

Place - places are in ex-East Prussia with the exception of Posen/Poznan
Date
Time

Landing

Place
Time

Carried forward

Minutes - probably over enemy territory as before
Kilometres - both of these have a running total from the previous page and a grand total at the bottom

Remarks - this includes the route, the crew, and sometimes some detail
A number, possibly the mission evaluation we saw earlier. this also has a carried item at the top.

Mission one was an operation from Thorn (Torun, Poland) on 20th October 44 at 1712, returning to Königsberg at 1945 after 153 mins and 950 km. That's actually 223 minutes flying time, so the number given is presumably for time over enemy territory. The crew included Uffz (Unteroffizier/Sergeants) Göttling and Wallner. I think the route given runs up the original border of East Prussia through Gumbinnen, a 1914 battle site. They were illuminated by searchlights and engaged by light and medium flak. They got one point. The day after next, they positioned back to Thorn. The one after that went as far as Bialystok in Poland or maybe Belarus but they had an engine problem.

Some of the trips are long - the longest is 1900 km and five hours - and the really long ones are marked "2SD2SD" or "2RB250". The last 2SD2SD is the longest trip on the 12th December. The next flight is a positioning flight from Posen to Thorn, but the previous one came back to Thorn. The one after that is operational and marked 2RB250. I think this means these are aircraft identifiers and they fetched 2RB250 from Posen. (Dunno why; Junkers didn't have a plant there. maybe a depot? a maintenance site? or it just happened to end up in Posen.)

You can't see the serial numbers used in the Leistungsbuch but they are linked; the authorising officer's note confirms serials 998 to 1009 and 1021 to 1036, on Christmas Day 1944. Although the stamp says Senior Lieutenant and Special Duty Officer (Oblt. und Offizier zbV), the signature says Captain and Squadron Commander and that's written out in full...I suppose nobody was in a hurry to issue new stationery. By the end of the page yer man had 506 hours of combat (30400 minutes/60) and 32 of those points.

[SimonK]

Thanks again mate, fascinating....I think I can help with the numbers you mention. SD250 etc is the bombload, eg SD 250kg bombs and the points are the totals towards medals. My mE109 ace also records the points from the aircraft he shoots down as totals in his logbook. Super job.......

[Chugalug2]

The problem with Vichy France was that it existed purely at the whim of Hitler, who could, and ultimately did, occupy it at a stroke. I'm sure that some there were anti-Nazi, even anti-German, and longed for the liberation of their country. The regime though knew which side its bread was buttered on and refused all attempts to alter that, spectacularly of course with Churchill's demands that the French Fleet join the Royal Navy, or at least sail for a neutral country and hence out of the war. The tragedy that followed hardened attitudes on both sides. De Gaulle might have been in many ways a thorn in the Allied side, but at least he and the Free French were on the Allied side. Vichy never was.

Franek, thanks again for dotting more of the i's. It seems that Cadix is in many ways a known unknown. That always intrigues, and will no doubt offer up more of its secrets with time.

[MPN11]

OK, so I think I understand. Fiendflug [operational sortie, underlined in red] is then rated by the authenticating officer to give a score [also in red on the right margin]. The running total then, presumably, counts towards your Eisernes Kreuz (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/De-EisernesKreuz.ogg) which turns up in the post eventually! Wow, what a lot of administration and record-keeping ... didn't they know there was a War going on? ;)

[MPN11]

Geriaviator ... Your #12320 ... was that just one MQ, or a semi-detached double? It looks huge!!

[Geriaviator]

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/874x287/aden_interior_167w_973acbd87aa9b35ca4779348fe0242ece3f7eea1. jpg

MPN11, all these MQs were semis designated W or E ours being 167W. I've just found that Google satellite has been updated and shows more detail. Our former MQs are still standing although the road layouts have been altered and walls built around each pair of houses, maybe they have been knocked into one. The three airmens' blocks pictured above are still standing although the east half of block 1 has been demolished or collapsed. The Officers' Mess has become part of the University of Aden. Much of the camp as I remember it and the hangars have survived too. Quite amazing after 66 years!

Our swimming pool south of the civil terminal a mile across the peninsula to the east has disappeared but the wonderful beach (provided you didn't mind sharing with shark, barracuda, sting rays etc) now forms the Park Layali run by Dubai Tourism. If you're looking for somewhere different this winter ...

[MPN11]

Thanks for that. Highly reminiscent of the sets they used in that TV serial about the RMP in Aden a year or two agao.

[Geriaviator]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/865x543/khormaksar_1951_c99930cef8011c1c2b6feb727f6e5727e259abf2.jpg

Surprising how many people still remember Khormaksar, albeit with memories not as happy as mine as an 11-year-old. Interesting to compare this old picture with today's Google satellite view. Sheikothman road retains same line but is now dual carriageway. I was oddly pleased to see our house still standing at the corner of the Patch; from the arrival of my pet land crab, Ahmed, we didn't have another cockroach in the house and I'd like to think that his/her descendants are still crunching up the cockroach population.

[Chugalug2]

Geriaviator, glad to hear that your Khormaksar home has managed to survive into 21C Yemen. Does the same hold true for your Alma Mater, or even Abdullah's Sentry Box? Perhaps the very lack of active town planning in a war ravaged country has lent them and the rest of this ex RAF Station (which might as well be set in a Moon Crater given your pic) a chance of survival that many UK ones were denied.

The lack of any vegetation whatsoever is the most striking feature of course. The immediate thought is that the station has been newly constructed and awaits nature's healing powers. I imagine that it still does...

[Fareastdriver]

The lack of any vegetation whatsoever is the most striking feature of course

Aden had to wait until Johnny Johnson flew in the topsoil when he was the Commander.

[Chugalug2]

and what better gardening tool to use for that than a Whistling Wheelbarrow, FED?

[ian16th]

and what better gardening tool to use for that than a Whistling Wheelbarrow, FED?

I heard that it was a Beverley.

And that the 'soil' contained a large proportion of kraal manure.

[Danny42C]

Geriaviator (#12363),

Surely the Land Crab was "Abdul", chota Sahib ?

[ICM]

I don't know quite how much of Khormaksar has made it into the 21st century. The Argosy Detachment website has some photos from 1998, when one of our erstwhile number went back through in a DC4. This was the MRT Wing Hangar, vacated like everything else at the end of 1967:

Khormaksar 1998 (http://www.argosy.org.uk/Aden98-5.JPG)

[Geriaviator]

Namaste, burra Sahib! Abdul was Graham's crab which became the Terror of the Church Parade. My crab Ahmed was useful only for terrorising my little sister until Dad threw him over the verandah, thenceforth to live outside the kitchen. I did catch Mum feeding him scraps when she discovered his voracious appetite for cockroach.

Chugalug, on looking again to Google Earth I think our school building is still standing though I'm sure Abdullah the chowkidar and his box are long gone. On the subject of soil, Aden's volcanic sand was very fertile, requiring only the addition of precious water. (Same in the Canary Isles I think). If you look back at my #12320 you can see a siphon hose dangling from the kitchen lean-to window, draining sink and shower water into a trench alongside the garden path. This trench contained a row of parrot trees, so called because of their curved flowers resembling a parrot's beak; they are about three feet high in the picture, but when we left less than a year later they were up to the roof.

Again from Google, the skeletons of the old hangars are still standing. From my 1951 picture, the NAAFI building is still there as well.

[sagindragin]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1862x788/288_df400baaa9d5c948eaae6e2ae76e49205fad0906.jpg
hi Danny42C, do you have any details of vengeance serial numbers against codes used by RAF in Burma, this is for RAF vengeance profiles

[India Four Two]

"Aeroflot** M*****, yes, one of my crew has served in Aden".
"M*****, now we know why you left!"

Fantomzorbin,

I visited Aden in the early 90s, "between the first two civil wars". An interesting experience for me, because my grandfather had been there for a few years with "Bricks and Works", in the early 30s. It was fascinating to see places that had not changed much from the B&W photos in our family albums.

What prompted me to post was that prior to visiting Yemen, I had made a couple of trips to Russia. Some of the architecture in Aden and particularly around Khormaksar was a bizarre mixture of RAF architecture and concrete Russian apartment blocks, that looked exactly the same as ones I had seen in the Arctic!

I noticed that the ex-RAF hangars had been extensively shot-up in the first civil war.

[Danny42C]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.


sagindragin (#12371),

This should help, I hope:

(With full acknowlegdements to Peter C. Smith: "Vengeance", Appendix III)

BRITISH (US A-31)

AF745-944; VV II, VULTEE BUILT, BRITISH CONTRACT.
AN538-837; DO.
AH838-AN999; VV I NORTHROP BUILT, BRITISH CONTRACT.
AP001-AP137; DO.
EZ800-EZ999; VVIA NORTHROP BUILT LEND LEASE
FB918-FD117; VVIII VULTEE BUILT US CONTRACT FOR LEND LEASE

BRITISH (US A-35)

FD118-FD221; VVIV VULTEE BUILT LEND LEASE
HB300-HB550; VVIV DO.

AUSTRALIAN

Appear to be mostly in the AN-*** series (as in your Line Drawing).

.......................

Notes:

The "Contract Price" was US$63,000 (ca £15,500) per aircraft

Can't remember Squadron letters (did we have them ?) on either 110 (RAF) or 8 (IAF) Sqns: think just a solitary aircraft letter. Stand to be corrected !

All RAF and IAF ops in Burma were carried out in VVs Mks. I and II. The Mk. III (mechanically identical, all US A-31s) came out only after ops ceased in summer 1944.

The Mk.IV (US A-35) was different in that it had a 4-degree Angle of Incidence in the wing. Your Line Drawing would appear to show an A-31 (zero angle of Incidence), which would indicate an A-31 (VV Mk. I-III).

The A-31 (all the Marks (I-III I flew) was a lousy aircraft per se, but a fine dive bomber. Never saw a Mk. IV (A-35): would guess it to be a better aircraft and a worse dive bomber. They also had 0.50 Brownings in the wings (replacing the 0.300s in the A-31s), and a single 0.50 Browning in the back (replacing the original twin US 0-300s - which we replaced by British 0.303s in service).

The Mk.IV s went all over the place, Brazil got some; the Free French used them, the ones that went to UK and Australia were converted to target tugs.

The last survivor (a Mk.I dolled up as a Mk.IV) lives/lived in the Camden Aviation Museum (currently closed), Narellan, Sydney.

That's about all I know.

Cheers, Danny.

PS: No thanks for your line drawing, but thanks all the same: I already have a very good one drawn by two of the very nice new baby Controllers who came to me in ATC at Leeming. They also did a 1/72 Airfix model for me (God knows what became of it).

One finished as a Wing Commander, commanding that ATC School where he had started as a pupil !

[sagindragin]

thanks Danny, that explains why i have not seen many aircraft with codes on, i bought Peterrs book back when i started collecting all the info i understand there is a new one coming out this month, i also recieved a lot of Vultee engineering drawings and the E&M manual, all this just to get the correct shape of the fuselage and engine cowling forward of the cockpit, sadly i had to get rid of all the paper stuff i collected when i moved house but by then the main work was done.

[ian16th]

Did Danny know about this?

Did the organisers know about Danny? (https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/its-been-privilage-burma-veterans-15245468)

[Danny42C]

ian16th (#12375),

"No" - on both counts ! And I am content that that should remain so. The last thing I want is for some cub reporter from the M'boro "Evening Gazette" snuffling round here to scribble some copy about a new "War Hero" he's found living in their midst.

Ditto BBC "Look North" - although I think (hope) that they are still nursing burnt fingers after the last one they found some years ago (who turned out to be a "Walt").

Low profile's the thing - I value my privacy !

Danny.

[Warmtoast]

Re. Accommodation
In my #12331 of 26th Sept I showed a couple of my photos of the airmen's billet in S. Rhodesia which I occupied during my first overseas tour (1951 - 1953).
In 1956 I was posted to the Far East and spent time in RAF Negombo (Katunayake), RAF China Bay, RAF Seletar and RAF Gan between 1956 - 1958. Some photos from my album showing the Far East accommodation below.

RAF Negombo

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/480x473/negombo_20accommodation_zps298gro3v_f5128abc943c35cb55b1f31f 4b5f66ff3a7ef943.jpg

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/393x640/negombo_20_20the_20palms_zpsxagfjlof_2f121710c7fc3812b0fec6b 69b0fbd058d851697.jpg

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/420x600/kat_20scorpion_zpsif0kie4s_99dc0eb3e012a9742b45638586938d2f9 cd779b9.jpg
Palm trees everywhere with storm drains alongside the billets. Drains were occupied by frogs that loudly croaked throughout the night. On arrival we were given a briefing that scorpions were a constant hazard and told to give our shoes a good bang to dislodge any nasty's before putting them on.

RAF China Bay
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x466/china_20bay_zpsgyrws1ej_7c8f25d5f656b932a965cb14152139ce7363 07d0.jpg

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x509/china_20bay_20_20general_20view_zpsr1yn1g8q_b568e939e7821eb1 197cf18abd25528c47aa90f9.jpg
General View - Modern Blocks
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x399/china_20bay_201_zpsix2bocur_78af5b72e086c33f46020ada03f9cda8 802cd771.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x391/china_20bay_20_20airmens_20barrack_20blocks_zpsidhsgg94_e782 9971e9f3c06dc7b3929c106a5368fb51bf4a.jpg
Airmen's accommodation blocks

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/402x640/china_20bay_20_20gray_20langur_zpsasouspow_17e9e2f77f67c4685 89ec10172e01c4fddda0f79.jpg
Grey Langur monkeys were plentiful. Troops of them were everywhere especially on the roofs of buildings. They were harmless and accepted scraps of food - the youngsters were very appealing!

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x487/china_20bay_20_20grey_20langurs_204_zpsscncmob4_cc17973d9532 14617d5c7659d796403db7857b11.jpg

RAF Seletar


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x550/image7_zps4ihl4xlh_cab33b55d0ec0fd1db911961b7a8064c98ce06d9. jpg

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x407/seletar_20xmas_201957_20_202_zpssjyr4ilr_0c867432adf68a33308 d140d52aa273e66c7dd19.jpg

Finally RAF Gan

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x525/image9_zpssknsczwy_d56d85d4ea335b253ee67eb1fca0d7f69349a2af. jpg
42-miles south of the equator and brown tents meant it was Hot!

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/480x467/in_20tent_zpslc8ecm2b_a65d0b7878fa2d79cc894570558ccc92d406c4 b6.jpg

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/640x435/new_20kadjan_20billet_zpsdchnfrsx_c4aa6cf1d741a2d7432f0118e9 dc4f32c72d65a3.jpg
Later 'Kadjan' (woven palm leaves) walled buildings replaced tents, much better, but still too much heat as roofs were un-insulated corrugated iron sheets.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/500x336/new_20blocks_zpskfatiskv_2471d108567b363a0330174ba81736f4951 4acd4.jpg
...and just before I left Gan at the end of 1958 to return home the first of the many 'proper' billet blocks were completed, but I never lived in one.

WT

[zetec2]

What is the story re the Harvard ?? parked up side down on the Seletar square ? do tell please.

[MPN11]

Ah, “Blocks, Barracks, Tropical, Troops for the use of” :)

Mind you, there were original parts of the OM at Tengah which were a bit like that. I spent my first few weeks in one before an ‘air-conditioned’ one became available. Louvre doors at both ends, and a languid fan dangling from a high ceiling. Adding the mossie net and I knew I was in the Far East! Loverley! Sadly no camera back then ... I hadn’t had time to go to Changi Village!

[Warmtoast]

What is the story re the Harvard ?? parked up side down on the Seletar square ? do tell please.

It was drunken revelry at Seletar - Christmas 1957. ISTR we were a 'bolshie' lot in those days and from the raised arm gestures the group having overturned the Harvard instructional airframe were probably singing verse three of "The Internationale"!

No more deluded by reaction
On tyrants only we'll make war
The soldiers too will take strike action
They'll break ranks and fight no more
And if those cannibals keep trying
To sacrifice us to their pride
They soon shall hear the bullets flying
We'll shoot the generals on our own side

[zetec2]

Warmtoast, thanks for reply, looking at picture see where outer wings bolt on faired in would suggest traing airframe, thanks again.

[Chugalug2]

Yes, great pics WT. Thank you. Interesting that some of the buildings have tiled pitched roofs, while others have flat roofs, presumably concrete slab ones. Rather echoes the UK trend whereby the salubrious triple decker 'Baldwin' OMs (eg Thorney Island and the now lamented Manby) gave way to the later more utilitarian ones with flat roofs. Not a cost cutting move as one might think but an attempt to make them more resilient to blast damage from bombing raids. The early buildings at Changi had tiles (from Marseilles), but the majority (including Temple Hill OM) had flat concrete roofs. For those who fancy wallowing in yet more pictorial wandering down memory lane, Pinterest offers a very addictive habit:-

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/494270127830895333/?utm_campaign=rtpinrecs&e_t=db14d845e5e74a93bbc5e96d039503f1&utm_content=494270127830895333&utm_source=31&utm_term=4&utm_medium=2004

[esa-aardvark]

Chugaluh,
I had Marseille tiles in New Zealand. They came in 4 sizes. Original French metric,
New Zealand Imperial (a bit different size), New Zealand metric (different again),
current NZ metric (compatible with the original). Made it difficult fixing the roof. I believe
the original ones came to NZ as ballast on the returning meat exporting ships.

[MPN11]

Chugalug2 ... interesting Pinterest link, especially the almost complete lack of Tengah photos. Clearly those at Changi had both time and cameras, whilst the MOB was too busy to do that!! :)

[Chugalug2]

MPN11, the link concentrated on Changi as that is filed as one of my Pinterests. If you entered yours as Tengah I'm sure you would be obliged. Tengah was of course a far off place of which we then knew little. It was rumoured they had some new fangled gubbings there called 'air conditioning'. The only RAF air conditioned rooms I ever slept in were the ASC transit ones at HKG, that is if we beat the Brit there. :ok:

ea, it would seem that Marseilles tiles were much sought after then, if only on a "Never mind the quality feel the width!" basis, from what you say. The fact that Changi Hospital and sundry bungalows were so roofed was one of those minor facts (in this case gleaned from Sqn Ldr (then) Probert's History of Changi) that stick in the mind, whereas where I've just left my car keys doesn't! :(

[MPN11]

Thanks, Chugalug2 ... I've mastered the technology now, but still somewhat lacking in images!

[Chugalug2]

Oh they will be added to, MPN, over and over. Rather like the sorcerer's apprentice it will pile email after email upon you with yet more links to feed the Tengah habit. I did warn of its addictive nature. :E

WT, what a bolshie lot you were at Seletar! Was there any particular reason for the uprising? Shortly after RAF Fairford was re-opened (so that Concord could use the 10000ft runway for testing and development) there was trouble at t'mill. A lack of on station facilities and an almost non existent bus service to the outside world culminated in an outbreak of mini disorder (felling of flag pole, breaking of guard room windows, etc). The Stn Cdr's solution? A station parade! This was held in a vacant hangar in case of bad weather. All take offs and landings were prohibited from/to appropriate times. A fellow captain was at the holding point ready to go when the ban started, so sat there with engines at low speed ground idle throughout!

Unfortunately the open hangar doors were aligned with the holding point and the Allison/Hamilton Standard whine drowned out many of the commands, making the parade even more of a shambles than usual for station parades. Finally the whole point of the parade, the Stn Cdr's address, was reached and he ordered the SWO to have the parade break ranks and gather around him to be better heard. They duly did, and a friend of mine on parade as a supernumerary feared for his life as they advanced inexorably towards him. Somehow the farrago finally ended and all dispersed without further incident. The Stn Cdr was replaced shortly after and things improved generally thereafter.


BTW, the picture of a Hudson at RAF Sembawang on my previous link set me looking for it on Google maps. Remarkably the runway is still there, just to the west of Seletar! For an island the size and shape of the Isle of Wight it is surprising how many airfields there were in Singapore over the years; Kallang, Changi, Paya Lebar, Seletar, Sembawang, Tengah...any others?

[Fitter2]

If you entered yours as Tengah I'm sure you would be obliged. Tengah was of course a far off place of which we then knew little. It was rumoured they had some new fangled gubbings there called 'air conditioning'.
Those of us who spent a month there before going on to 11 months in Kuching or Labuan knew nothing of AirCon. We lived in the 'stables' near JC's curry stall outside the main gate. The best feature was close proximity to the swimming pool. Re accomodation, I must dig out and post pics of the Kuching basha hut accomodation. The palm-leaf thatch was much better insulation than more modern materials used on the later ones, and contained an interesting variety of insect population.

[Warmtoast]

Chugalug2

WT, what a bolshie lot you were at Seletar! Was there any particular reason for the uprising?

Probably national servicemen anxious to get home at the end of their service, or perhaps youthful high spirts fuelled by seasonal drink - not tolerated nowadays of course!

[MPN11]

Oh they will be added to, MPN, over and over. Rather like the sorcerer's apprentice it will pile email after email upon you with yet more links to feed the Tengah habit. I did warn of its addictive nature. :E

Yeah, the emails have already started! I have unsubscribed already!! :)

[Fareastdriver]

there were in Singapore over the years;

Were? Are. Apart form Kallang of which the Old Airport Road exists the other are still operational civil and military airfields. Sembawang now has an additional high performance runway in addition to its old runway.

[Chugalug2]

Didn't mean to infer otherwise FED. Incidentally. Wiki adds a further airfield to my list; Pulau Sudong on the eponymous island within the Singapore Southern Islands Group, and which it entirely occupies. It would appear that Singapore takes its security very seriously, having left the Malaysia Federation in the 60's and had us quit our bases shortly thereafter. A lesson for us perhaps?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airports_in_Singapore

[MPN11]

Oh, yes, I recall noticing that at some stage. Nice to hace a spare 8,000 ft runway in case of emergencies!!

[Brian 48nav]

Chugalug,

Do you remember the Nav' Ldr on 30 at Fairford, Boss Ox, Sqn Ldr Derek Oxenham? He had been an airman at Seletar during the infamous strike or mutiny as it almost became in 1946. He was quick to point out when asked, that he had not taken part!
There are a few pages devoted to it in 'Lion in the sky', the history of RAF Seletar by N. Shorrick, published in 1968.

[Fareastdriver]

The Republic of Singapore Air Force has impressive line up. It has 100 F15/F16s. 4 Airbus KC135s to be replaced by 6 Airbus KC30As, 10 Lockheed CH/C 130s and a maritime surveillance capability. Sixty combat helicopters plus a plethora of air defence missiles and suchlike. We used to look after Singapore with less than half of that.

[MPN11]

Not only that, but Tengah has a new parallel taxiway, numerous HAS loops and covered a/c parking. Oh, the luxury!!

But I bet the OM Bar[s] aren’t as much fun!

[Chugalug2]

B48n, I can't really see boss Ox as a politically motivated man, young or old! I think that the Great RAF Mutiny was covered here previously and that the main grievance was that Far Eastern based servicemen's demob had to await that of their fellows in UK and Europe. As Danny said at the time, things were still very unstable in the Far East, with many "freedom" movements seeking independence following the Jap surrender rather than exchanging their "Co Prosperity" version of colonialism for those more conventional ones of the Dutch, French, or Brits. Mountbatten even co-opted Japanese troops for internal security use in some of these territories. There was also the logistical problems involved in shipping them home when priority there went to returning US troops. Did anyone think of Station Parades to improve morale? :\

FED, impressive indeed. The State of Singapore may be small in square miles but its hard working and well educated population have turned it into a jewel of the Far East. As with most jewels it is coveted by its less successful neighbours, as well as the increasingly belligerent super power further north. Rather like the Swiss, it has to make itself a difficult and thorny challenge to anyone with malevolent designs upon it. Seems to me they've managed that in trumps. I remember that we offered to stay around to ensure its security rather than withdraw completely. "Thanks but no thanks" was Lee Kuan Yew's response. I think he had the right idea, sadly. :(

Oh, the locals could whoop it up on occasion, MPN11. The Sri Lankan Air Force OM was jumping one day while we were transiting through Katunayake. Upon enquiry it was revealed that they had just been paid for the first time in three months. Very responsibly they had decided to plough much of it back into the somewhat depleted Mess Funds! :ok:

[Danny42C]

All:

Danny42C has computer problems, cannot
receive or send emails until further notice,

[JAVELINBOY]

Stumbled across an interesting Facebook Group
https://www.facebook.com/groups/7179373655/permalink/10154281508043656/
Excellent film footage of mosquito bouncing mines down railway tunnels in Wales.

[Wander00]

Hmm, bet that was an exciting profile to fly

[Fareastdriver]

It's the tenth of the month.

[oxenos]

It's the tenth of the month.

You really should't do that. An awful lot of elderly ppruners will have had a mini panic - me included.

[Danny42C]

(1) Danny42C is back on line.

(2) FED (#12401),

Far too curt ! - (usually) the wording was: "Gentlemen, today is the 10th"

[Wander00]

When I was OC Accts at a Lincs fighter station in the early 80s, I had a deal with the squadron commanders: cop on 10th I told them who of their pilots had not paid their mess bill, those on the list did not appear on the flying programme on 11th!

[FantomZorbin]

Welcome back Danny, I trust that Mr Babbage's engine is now up to snuff ;)

[Wander00]

Great you are back, Danny, waiting eagerly for next pearl of wisdom

[MPN11]

<not a caption> "MPN11 quickly washes up Danny's mug." :)

[Danny42C]

Fantom Zorbin et al,

Thank you all ! - glad to be back (WD40s the stuff for Babbage Mk.I s). "Pearls" - a rather unfortunate analogy, perhaps ...... ?

Mug ? - one of Laura Ashley's finest (nothing but the best for me !) But thank-ee all the same, MPN11 ! - a kind deed for a Senior Citizen.

Danny.

[MPN11]

....
Mug ? - one of Laura Ashley's finest (nothing but the best for me !) But thank-ee all the same, MPN11 ! - a kind deed for a Senior Citizen..From a Junior Senior to a Senior Senior, “You’re welcome.” ;)

PS: I always thought that mug was a bit pretentious for a cyber-Nissen hut.

[Icare9]

The tumbleweed is piling up against the crew room door and a few panes have cracked no one home, has the base been sold off by the MoD?
Hopefully it means that Danny is being cosseted at home by the log fire whilst his uniform is being pressed.

To return to a pet issue of mine, after a fairly contentious exchange I have now located the crash site of the Tempest V JN759 flown by Flt Sgt Donald John Mackerras RAAF of 3 Squadron near my village on Sunday afternoon 6th August 1944 on an anti Diver patrol with S/Ldr R Dryland. Seems a proximity fused AA shell damaged his aircraft and caused a fatal crash landing.
Mackerras may be related to the other notable Australians of that name.
I'm hopeful that a commemoration service can be arranged for the 75th anniversary next year, which needs liaising with RAF and RAAF representatives, and potentially his relatives.
The Australian War Memorial hosted a Last Post ceremony for him in 2016 and will be projecting his name on the facade of the Memorial in mid December.

That should bring this thread back onto Page 1!

[Danny42C]

Icare9 (#12410),Hopefully it means that Danny is being cosseted at home by the log fire whilst his uniform is being pressed.No, he is flat on his back, hors de combat, getting TLC from his devoted daughter (from whose laptop this is coming),

Meanwhile his own laptop is "under the knife" at local friendly IT repair shop.

When (if) both servicable again, Normal Service will be resumed.

Danny.

[MPN11]

Greetings Danny42C and wonderful devoted daughter. Good to hear from you again ... BTW, you’re on SDO on Thursday, and I believe it’s your turn to sweep the cyber-Crewroom this week.

All the best for a swift recovery for you ,.. and that bloody laptop! And hugs to Devoted Daughter, aka DD ;)

[Chugalug2]

Danny, I second Icare's and MPN's wishes for your speedy recovery. All here is despond and neglect, as Icare says. So hurry back, and give that laptop of yours a jolly good talking to so that you can join the fray again when all is Ops Normal.

Icare9, well done on your diligent research in locating Tempest JN759. Operation Diver was beset by many perils, given that the target itself packed up to 1000Kg of Amatol or Trialen. Hence the preference for tipping them rather than shooting them down air to air. To fall casualty to our own AA, when they were supposed to occupy a different sector to the fighters is surprising, but perhaps this was before the deployment of the AA to the coast? Was the "contentious exchange" with the MOD?

[Icare9]

As it's close to 75 years since D Day and 1 week after the first V1's started to arrive, some newcomers might need a bit of a refresher.
In early 1944, Bomber Command had diverted from attacking Germany targets to switch to paralysing the French transport network in preparation for D Day.
Resources had to be diverted once the purpose of "ski jump" launch ramps for the V1 were discovered being built in hundreds of locations, all aligned towards London. Many crews fell victim during daylight raids, but perhaps their biggest unsung triumph was the devastating raid on Peenemunde which set back the V1 and V2 programmes.
Had that not been interrupted, V1's would have been trundling over much sooner, perhaps before December 1943 and possibly had a tremendous effect not only on morale, but on the massing of troops and equipment building up for D Day.
As it was, the impact (perhaps not the best word) of the V1 assault was overshadowed by the relief that the D Day landings had been successful, and thus did less damage to morale.
Add the V2 into the mix in early 1944 and London would have had a pulverising series of blows that it may have had to be abandoned.

Whilst the Spit Mk XIV, Mustang, Mosquito and the American P61 Black Widow and several others helped in shooting down many, of the nearly 10,000 V1's launched, almost 40% were stopped one way or another. The Tempest Mk V was about the only aircraft capable of catching the V1's in level flight, the others all needed to sweep down in a dive to get close. 0.303 ammo tended to bounce off the casing, so 20mm cannon was really the only effective ammunition, but needed to get to 200 yards, and that distance can be covered in a blink of an eye at 400 mph! That resulted in the attacker flying through the debris cloud of burning fuel and lumps of metal.

Once the London defenders had got over their joy at downing seemingly every enemy attacking "bomber" in flames - not realising that they'd begun the terminal dive - the tactics were for fighters to patrol the Channel, AA on a coastal belt and fighters over the Weald with barrage balloons as the last line of defence.

My involvement with this crash came about simply by accident. I do a lot of internet research about my village and accidentally mistyped the name, and up came this Tempest crash, which had also been mistyped and catalogued incorrectly..That meant no one else had connected the mistype with the correct village. The Australians have done Mackerras proud, with a Last Post ceremony and will be projecting his name in December, but nothing was known about it in the village. Only one old resident thought he remembered it, and gave me accurate details which I certainly hadn't fed him, so it bore out what I knew, except location. It didn't tie in with what I'd been given, so it needed a lot more determined digging to get it.

We did have a V1 land very close to the Church, and that was linked to the funeral of a village lad electrocuted when the barrage balloon he was attempting to tether but blown into nearby HT lines. That was 1st August and I wondered whether the V1 that exploded by the Church, and which showered mourners leaving in debris, had been the one that Mackerras attacked.

Unfortunately, the Church records show that Hugh was buried the next day (2nd August - which seemed unusually soon) and Mackerras crashed on the Sunday 6th August, so I can't use the "heroic pilot sacrificed his life steering doomed plane away from village, after downing V1 which would have destroyed the village" EXCEPT the first part is possibly true. I believe he force landed, as the police records give a partial serial number and Squadron code which indicates the aircraft broke apart and I know it caught fire. Suffice it to say that I had the DPA (not GDPR) and PMRA thrown at me before I was able to obtain the precise location. It didn't seem much point trying to organise a commemoration if, with dignitaries and perhaps family present, all we could say was that he crashed "somewhere around here". It's not a wreck site as exploding cannon shells were firing in all directions, and that isn't likely if buried deep in the earth. I will say I have looked over the area and have to say it has some beautiful views, not that it means much.

One aspect I'd be interested in is if Sqdn Leader R Dryland who was the other pilot on patrol, left any memories of this behind.
I'm also curious as to where the barrage balloon that caused all this came from. RAF Wartling wasn't far away and we're only a couple of miles from the coast, so the radar station might be the origin, as I thought all barrage balloons had moved back from coastal towns.

Any way, I'm filling a bit of space in before Skip returns from SSQ

[Chugalug2]

Icare9:-
Any way, I'm filling a bit of space in before Skip returns from SSQ

Ha, Ha! No more than the rest of us, Icare, and you raise some interesting points. Why was a Barrage Balloon there anyway, and where did it come from? No mention of any Balloon Command presence at Wartling here :-

Stations-W (http://www.rafweb.org/Stations/Stations-W.htm)

and the Command's Organisation page in Wiki gives little away either :-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Balloon_Command

a more generic page though tells of a similar incident (the October Incident) on a much larger scale in 1942 in North America, which in turn led to a typical British wheeze, Operation Outward. I've certainly never heard of it before and suspect it was of very limited effect. It recalls though the Japanese balloons launched against the US West Coast :-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrage_balloon

an interesting site here about aircraft brought down by barrage balloons :-

http://www.bbrclub.org/Barrage%20Balloon%20Cable%20Collisions%20with%20Aircraft%20i n%20WWII.htm

[Icare9]

Yes, where did it come from?
I have limited knowledge (says OH) about WW2 barrage balloons, except they were over major cities, towns and other important sites, such as docks, but I've not heard previous local comment about barrage balloons. At that time, approximately autumn 1944, I believe they were rearranged to be more of a barrier to the V1's., along the southern fringes of London, as the last line of defence if one had survived interception over the Channel, AA on the coast, more fighters inland and then the balloons.

It doesn't seem likely though that a balloon could have drifted so far south, and there are HT lines and pylons south of the Rec, so it may well have come from the north....
Just more examples of the misfortunes of war, one brave lad trying to stop a balloon (he did have a crowd of other kids to start with, but as the balloon drifted, so it shed more and more until he was the only one left) and presumably by then too high to safely let go.

Then a V1 narrowly misses the village, presumably brought don by a proximity fused AA shell and explodes; just as the funeral service ended, and a few days later th tempest crashed on the outskirts, attributed to being hit by our own AA fire (probably another proximity fuse) as he closed on a V1...

Presumably no one thought that a proximity fuse would also down anything it came close to, they were maximising their ability to shoot V1's down.

Hopefully Doc and Nurse 42C are getting Skip kitted up ready for Ops?..........

[MPN11]

.... and sorting out his bloody laptop!

[Chugalug2]

Interesting stats from the last link in my #12415. Of the 374 total cable strikes listed there, 310 were friendlies, 54 hostiles, the remaining 10 unknown. 91 friendlies and 25 hostiles were crashes, 38 and 1 respectively were forced landings. Of course, the deterrent effect forced hostile aircraft higher or around the balloon barrages, and there were far more friendlies in our skies than hostiles. The greater effectiveness of the armed cables is also of note.

[Franek Grabowski]

What is the question in regard of V1? Tempests were most effective, then Griffon Spitfires and then Mustangs. Finally, the problem was solved with the arrival of proximity fuses for AAA.

[Wander00]

MPN11/Danny - seconded. Neither Danny nor the laptop gets sick leave!

[roving]

Hoping for a speedy recovery of Danny and his laptop.

Behind the paywall of today's Telegraph is the Obituary of a New Zealand pilot who took part in many dangerous operations in WWII and who went on post war to enjoy to a distinguished flying career in the Royal Air Force. retiring in 1976 as an AVM.

Fortunately his story is told in today's Sydney Morning Herald.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/ww2-pilot-who-made-numerous-operations-behind-enemy-lines-20181025-p50bx5.html

[Chugalug2]

Thank you for the link, Roving. A varied and eventful career indeed! Ironic that having survived WWII, as a Gp Capt he almost met his maker trapped in a blazing and upturned Lightning. BZs to the crash crew who managed to extricate him alive. No doubt he showed his gratitude in the appropriate way!

[MPN11]

Another very interesting and varied career ... Dakota to Lightning is quite a jump, even with interim steps!

BTW, Danny42C is now posting on CapCom. :ok:

[Danny42C]

Chugalug et al,

Thank you all for your good wishes in your #12413 of 23/10/18 and #12416 and #12417 of 24/10/18 and today's #12421. #12420 ? - not so sure !

Laptop is behaving itself pro tem (fingers crossed), but I'm flat on my back again with yet another lung infection, and having to scoff some horrible antibiotics. Mary administering them as part of her unfailing TLC.

Actually sitting up in bed with laptop on a "Lavolta" frame (a bit wobbly), so can try to keep an eye on proceedings from time to time, and able to put in my two cent's worth when I feel like it.

Re: Barrage balloons; there was an early postwar story (sorry, no refs) about one which broke loose, and drifted slowly Eastward over our green and pleasant land, shorting out power cables and causing general mayhem. Someone rang the Duty Officer at Air Ministry. "Never fear", said this chap, "our brave fighter boys will sort it out in no time !"

But it was Wednesday afternoon, and those not engaged in official Sport were pushing supermarket trollies in town, or otherwise engaged (was there a time when there was no QRA ?) Anyway, they couldn't get an armed fighter into the sky in time, the Balloon carried on its trail of destruction before drifting out into the North Sea, and was never seen again.

Was the story true ? - Dunno. Could it have happened ? What do you think ?

Keep the old Thread going ! Cheers, Danny.

[FantomZorbin]

Welcome back Danny, even though in a less than vertical position!
For what it's worth I remember being told of the barrage balloon saga in ATCS ground school and repeating it in the classroom years later … heaven knows in what context though, it might have had something to do with 'securite' messages:confused:

[Wander00]

Get well soon, Danny

[Danny42C]

All,

I am humbled and gratified by the extent of your good wishes for my "recovery". Alas, at my age, this is too much to expect. The best I can hope for is to fend off the Grim Reaper as long as possible.

Having said that: "Dum spiro, scribo !"

(Horizontal) Danny

[Brian 48nav]

Welcome back, Danny! All is now well with our world!

Over on 'Aviation nostalgia' a chap has been seeking info' on his late Grandfather, who trained as a pilot in Canada about the same time as you were in the USA. I've advised him to have a look at our favourite thread to see what he can find re those far-off days.

[AndrewClark]

Folks - I am trying to find out anything about this base, which my (sadly long-deceased) father-in-law served at during 1945-46. I have been able to learn the basics from internet research but can't seem to get much beyond that. He would have been an AC1 or AC2 at the time but his service records don't go into any detail so it's really difficult to understand what he might have been doing there. Any help at all would be very welcome.....

[Warmtoast]

Danny

Re: Barrage balloons; there was an early postwar story (sorry, no refs) about one which broke loose, and drifted slowly Eastward over our green and pleasant land, shorting out power cables and causing general mayhem. Someone rang the Duty Officer at Air Ministry. "Never fear", said this chap, "our brave fighter boys will sort it out in no time !"
But it was Wednesday afternoon, and those not engaged in official Sport were pushing supermarket trollies in town, or otherwise engaged (was there a time when there was no QRA ?) Anyway, they couldn't get an armed fighter into the sky in time, the Balloon carried on its trail of destruction before drifting out into the North Sea, and was never seen again.

Was the story true ? - Dunno. Could it have happened ? What do you think ?

This one happened on 30th November 1951 - not sure if it's the one you remember.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/592x492/image3_zpssgpmp8vb_d2eb5f1cdc056020dc66cf417265828d00c1a6e2. jpg

[MPN11]

I’ll hang Danny’s Laura Ashley mug on the hook for now (yes, I washed it up properly) and I will also sweep the crewroom floor. Any takers for Danny’s SDO duty, or should I phone cyber-OC GD Flt? ;)

Blessings on you, Danny and Devoted Daughter.

[oxenos]

.OC GD Flt
Station Adjutant, Shurely?

[MPN11]

Station Adjutant, Shurely?
Oops ... caught in a Time-Warp there! 😀

[AndrewClark]

Folks - I am trying to find out anything about this base, which my (sadly long-deceased) father-in-law served at during 1945-46. I have been able to learn the basics from internet research but can't seem to get much beyond that. He would have been an AC1 or AC2 at the time but his service records don't go into any detail so it's really difficult to understand what he might have been doing there. Any help at all would be very welcome.....

I've just realised that I haven't named the base in question - it was RAF Chaklala in Rawalpindi, which was then in India but is now in Pakistan and is a Pakistani Air Force Base called Nur Khan. I have also now been told by family members that he was awarded three or four medals, including the Burma Star. Although I can't find any evidence of him actually serving in Burma, I understand that some (paratroop?) operations carried out from Chaklala were against the Japanese occupation of Burma, so I'm wondering if this explains why.... Again, I'd be very grateful for any help as I'm trying to compile information for my brother-in-law's birthday in December....

[Big Unit Specialist]

Reminds me of a RAID balloon(remote camera surveillance) we lost in Basra in 2007. During a storm it was being recovered and a sudden downdraught Caused it to break its tether and it was last seen heading for Iran with about £1000000 of surveillance equipment never to be seen again.

[Brian 48nav]

Hi Andrew, Jefford's book RAF Squadrons shows the following Sqn numbers served at Chaklaka in the time frame you mentioned.

10 SQn Dakotas
298 " Halifax A7
670 & 672 Gliders

So it's possible he was something to do with planned operations involving Daks etc towing gliders for use against the Japanese.

Other squadrons did time there but not on those dates.

[dragartist]

I wonder if the barrage balloon was one from Hullavington used for parachute training. Looking at the report the wind was blowing in the wrong direction.
Hugh Hunt of Trinity College Cambridge did a television programme describing how difficult it was to shoot down hydrogen filled balloons.

[pettinger93]

Re Dakotas in Burma against the Japanese: Rawalpindi is a long way west of Burma, especially for glider operations. Perhaps it was a training base for operations into the Burmese jungle? My father was the army major in charge of supporting the Chindits by air, and he was based in East India, and later even closer to the action from jungle clearings. He told of arranging to drop all sorts of goods and equipment out of Dakotas over mere map references in the Burmese jungle. These included primitive outboard motors, and, once, some £10,000 in gold sovereigns.These he had to throw out of the plane personally and sign a chit to certify so doing. He often used to wonder if anyone managed to find them.

[Brian 48nav]

pettinger93

I wasn't suggesting that an operation would be launched from that far west - it was likely a training base.

B48N

PS I've read of your father's exploits in 'War in the Wilderness' - what heroes those guys, the Chindits, were!

[MPN11]

Given the current propensity for aircrew awards for one operation in theatre, I wonder whether that’s how AndrewClark’s father might have acquired a Burma Star .. perhaos as a despatcher?

[Danny42C]

MPN11,

He'd get the Burma Star just for being in the theatre. Everyone out there would get it.
I have it. It was just a campaign medal like any other - not an award.

[MPN11]

MPN11,
He'd get the Burma Star just for being in the theatre. Everyone out there would get it.
I have it. It was just a campaign medal like any other - not an award.Agreed, Danny42C ... but was he 'in theatre' in Rawalpindi? Wiki provided geographic limits, which do not appear to cover that location 1,000+ miles to the North-west. That's why I was musing about the possibility of participating in air operations over the qualifying areas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma_Star
Army and Navy personnel and Air Force ground crew serving ashore qualified through entry into operational service in Burma between 11 December 1941 and 2 September 1945.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma_Star#cite_note-Regulations-1)
[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma_Star#cite_note-NewZealandBurma-2)
The medal was also awarded for service during certain specified periods in China, Hong Kong, India, Malaya and Sumatra, all dates inclusive:[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma_Star#cite_note-NewZealandersBurma-16)

[B]Bengal and Assam in India from 1 May 1942 to 31 December 1943.
Bengal and Assam, east of the Brahmaputra and Dihang Rivers, from 1 January 1941 to 2 September 1945.
China from 16 February 1942 to 2 September 1945.
Hong Kong from 26 December 1941 to 2 September 1945.
Malaya from 16 February 1942 to 2 September 1945.
Sumatra from 24 March 1942 to 2 September 1945.
Service in China, Hong Kong, Malaya and Sumatra after 8 December 1941, but prior to the start dates listed above, was recognised by the award of the Pacific Star (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Star).
Note [2] in the Wiki does lead to:iv. The qualification for flying personnel posted or employed on transport or ferrying duties in the air will be at least three landings in any of the qualifying areas shown in sub-para. 38 during the stipulated dates.

[Warmtoast]

Hi Andrew, Jefford's book RAF Squadrons shows the following Sqn numbers served at Chaklaka in the time frame you mentioned.

10 SQn Dakotas
298 " Halifax A7
670 & 672 Gliders

So it's possible he was something to do with planned operations involving Daks etc towing gliders for use against the Japanese.

Other squadrons did time there but not on those dates.
Daks were used for dropping stores to agents in Burma - see my post with photos here:
https://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/511484-raf-dakota-burma-wwii.html#post7773459

[Warmtoast]

When I was browsing the paper to report the drifting balloon (#12430 above), another item on the same page caught my eye concerning a crash at RAF Driffield the same day - see below and bottom the cutting reporting details of the two RAF men who were killed in the crash (last paragraph).
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/371x769/image1_zpsgzwrtajt_109b27b6e89a677747f5628d09956a8f64249516. jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/555x620/image_204_zpsnaf1bfkv_6ae3f5f56cd3f5ac73e9fb1a6846c0e0c32819 df.jpg


WT

[pettinger93]

My father visited the BBMF about 6 years ago to see the Dakota they have there. He ( and I ) were royally entertained, and shown round and inside the Dakota, while a present day Army dispatcher compared notes with my father. It brought out a stream of hair-raising stories about the Chindits and his work with them that he had never shared with us before (though little about his experiences actually fighting the enemy: he would never talk about that). Dad was also responsible for making and erecting the memorial to Wingate after he died in an American bomber crash.

[pettinger93]

The skills of the Dakota crews always amazed my father: navigating 1000's of miles over enemy jungle often in monsoon weather with less than detailed maps, and manouvering at low level around cloudy tree covered hills to get the drops where they were needed. Very unsung heroes.

[Danny42C]

MPN11 (#12442),

You are right: "The Burma Star was instituted by the United Kingdom in May 1945 for award to those who had served in operations in the Burma Campaign from 11 December 1941 to 2 September 1945. [Wiki]

Rawalpindi would be a thousand miles from operations !

Danny,

[MPN11]

MPN11 (#12442),
You are right: "The Burma Star was instituted by the United Kingdom in May 1945 for award to those who had served in operations in the Burma Campaign from 11 December 1941 to 2 September 1945. [Wiki]
Rawalpindi would be a thousand miles from operations !
Exactly! Air delivery with 3 landings in the right area[s] would have sufficed, though. Perhaps that was his route to entitlement?

[AndrewClark]

Many thanks to all who have contributed so far. It is very difficult, as all I have to go on are a copy of his service records, which contain very little information and the few entries that they contain are difficult to read. His wife is no longer with us, and his two daughters know very little about his RAF career. Ironically, his son has the most information, but we can't ask him as we are doing the research for his birthday!

On joining up, on New Years Eve 1943, he had been placed in Medical Category Grade 2 F.167a 'Not suitable for training at present', and appears to have served at RAF Feltwell for about a year, immediately after his basic training - logged as HH, which I understand means 'Headquarters Holding'. This was immediately before being posted to ACSEA in June 1945 and on to Chaklala in April 1946. While he was at Feltwell, No. 20 Glider Maintenance Unit (equipped with Horsa gliders) was also there, so perhaps there is a glider connection, although that Unit left Feltwell almost a year before he arrived at Chaklala - so that could also be irrelevant. I realize that this isn't much to go on but my wife and I are really appreciating the help being given by you guys in our quest. Thanks again, Andrew

[pzu]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x640/44974700_901308503398361_267070768796401664_n_d993874b016415 d20f80d6a9b46b1eebb275a097.jpg

Found this on FB and posting (with Neil Hutchinson's permission) for Danny (& others)

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

[MPN11]

Nice picture, and fond[ish] memories of the ones Marshalls used to fly around to confuse ATC students at Shawbury and Sleap! Ah, what patient pilots they were ... never a cross word, despite our ab initio fumblings.

[ICM]

Late to this but, for the record, Andrew can delete 10 Sqn Dakotas from his consideration. The unit was Mauripur-based and carried out a Para training detachment at Chaklala from 21 November - 23 December 1946, so all over before his Dad got there.

[MPN11]

The window of opportunity for AndrewClark's father-in-law to earn a Burma Star is extremely small - a matter of a couple of months, really. In his case, ? June 1945 - 2 September 1945. So his time at Chaklala [1,000 miles from Burma!] would have had to entail "3 landings" in the relevant 'zones of conflict' for the award of the Burma Star. How he achieved that remains a mystery so far.

[Reader123]

Found a couple of photographs of India of my late father's from late '45/46 and though I'd add them to the thread. I remember I found the negatives at home some years ago and printed them, they were not in great condition.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1204x809/bailey_bridge_025c469e199cc3922be0590cf40a2b5b0abf4b4f.jpg

Railway bridge between Raipur and Vizagapatam (October '45 -March '46)
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1157x773/trip_down_the_hoogly_to_the_tropical_gardens_stationed_at_du m_dum_b2374e209e111063edd6fea19de2a6e30e89b5c0.jpg

"Whilst stationed at Dum Dum, Calcutta, we used to have access to trips down the Hoogly to the Tropical Gardens. This photo was taken on one of those trips." (March - October 1946)
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1160x762/probably_calcutta_720321dde73ea97626bc976c4a8f9dc259cb8daf.j pg

Probably Calcutta.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1151x758/fo_bill_whittle_and_a_fs_out_of_passenger_handling_at_raf_st ation_vizagapatam_f29456e962dfb6fa12dfeaa98ee39fd35aeb68b4.j pg

F/O Bill Whittle and a FS out of passenger handling at RAF Vizagapatam (Oct '45 - Mar '46)

[Reader123]

but I find the old fashioned writing extremely hard to decipher, so I really appreciate any help.

Best cure for that is to learn how to do it yourself.

Lessons on Kurrent (taught up until 1914) https://script.byu.edu/Pages/German/en/kurrent.aspx I suggest you start there, you will appreciate how much easier Sutterlin (taught until 1941) is to read. Watch out for sch which is written as a single letter.

http://www.suetterlinschrift.de/Englisch/Sutterlin.htm

[topgas]

Malta Story was on TV the other afternoon. Apart from Mk XIV Spitfires used in ground shots, apparently the only ones they could find, they used archival footage, including this shot of a Mk Vb(trop)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fc/Malta_Story_Spitfire.jpg
Is there a reason why the undersides of a tropical Spitfire are painted in such a dark colour?

[Chugalug2]

As to the why's, I leave it to those better informed than I. As to the what's, here is a pic of the undersides of the tropical paint scheme from Britmodeller.com . Perhaps vivid rather than dark better describes the blue, as per tropical skies?

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x600/tropical_mkv_spitfire_beb76589bbe3f7835bc9796a7dc64fd5d518c0 47.jpg

[DHfan]

I'd forgotten completely that Desert Air Force aircraft had blue undersides.
I wouldn't mind quite so much if I hadn't seen a Spitfire V at Duxford a few years ago temporarily fitted with a tropical filter and in that scheme, and if I hadn't got an unmade plastic kit of one in a cupboard upstairs.

I can't find a picture online after a brief search but this is a video of the one at Duxford.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJKVMfkD7OA

[MPN11]

IMO that video shows a more accurate shade of blue than the very dark one shown in Chugalug’s link.

[BEagle]

Some of the photographic film types of that era did not respond evenly to certain colours of the spectrum, giving a false impression of the actual shade.

[MPN11]

Some of the photographic film types of that era did not respond evenly to certain colours of the spectrum, giving a false impression of the actual shade.
That was my feeling from the outset. Guys who produce such marvellous models don’t tend to get things completely wrong!

[Chugalug2]

well, here's a Desert Spitfire in the garb. Not a million miles away from the Britmodeller version IMHO. I think we have to remember that there was a war on, and different locations would have varying batches of paint (especially if a local repaint was needed). It was obviously blue, rather than the sky of the UK. If it's of any consequence, trying to match the colours of Victorian railway coaches, internal and external, is even more challenging.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/590x192/spitfire_desert_31b1b3bef2735fb4503fbb245e19c5f1a0344b89.jpg

[Danny42C]

Reader123 (#12454),

Lovely pics, note a point:

Pic 5 ("probably Calcutta") shows both types wearing the Aussie Bush Hat (far more convenient than the Cap SD, as you could screw the Bush Hat up and ram it in any nook or corner in your cockpit).

Did nearly four years out there (the best years of my life)

Cheers, Danny.

[MPN11]

Chugalug2 ... indeed, as ISTR there was a War going on. That profile resonates more than the Britmodeller one, as discussed already.

Danny42C ... hello! Phew! Welcome back!

[Chugalug2]

Before the days of computerised colour standards a Chief Engineer of the Southern Railway was on a visit to the Isle of Wight with his Works Managers. The group stopped outside an Opticians while the great man studied a lorgnette chord on display in the window. He went inside and purchased it. Emerging, he snipped it into two inch lengths and handed them out. "That is the colour I'm talking about gentlemen. That is the colour I want our carriages to be". Thus Ashford, Eastleigh, and Worthing had a unified data base to work from.


FWIW, here is the colour palette of the supposedly exact colours defined for RAF aircraft in WWII (from ISBN 0853682712 Aviation Colours of WWII) :-



https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/498x357/aviation_colours_of_wwii_14b37bc81490fc2e750cfed1eea5a9ab3b4 e2013.jpg


I guess the colour in question is Azure Blue?

[MPN11]

Azure Blue agreed ... I have seen it written in one of my reference books.

[DHfan]

Azure Blue came to my mind, but I wondered if I was right as I had an Azure Blue car, which was a totally different colour.

I think the film may have been orthochromatic which, from memory, could show yellow as black, presumably amongst other odd results. I just tried to check with Google to see if my memory was correct and there's so much there it's mind-boggling - so I gave up.

[Lonewolf_50]

Did nearly four years out there (the best years of my life)
Cheers, Danny. Glad you are still "here" given my worries when I read this one (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/153632-caption-competition-2569.html#post10299967).
this thread is a PPRuNe fave of mine.

[Chugalug2]

Lonewolf, you speak for all here in expressing your concern for our venerable Chief Pilot. His lucidity, wit, and energy in posting, not only on this thread but elsewhere, has always belied his years. Now we, like he, have been reminded that though the spirit is young the body is not.

We are all pitching for you Danny, and trust that Mary's loving devotion will return you to our cyber crew room in good form once more. I suspect though that both we and you must be patient and content with appropriately realistic expectations. The occasional post will be most welcome but please don't exert yourself unnecessarily on our behalf. You have inspired us all, your modesty and good humour a welcome change to the me first attitudes so prevalent today.

Rest and get well, Oh Happy Warrior, your battered armchair awaits you.

Chug

[AndrewClark]

Folks, thanks again for your wonderful help so far, concerning my father-in-law's RAF service. To clarify, all we know of his movements are that, after completing basic training, he was posted to RAF Feltwell in February 1944 and appears to have stayed there until being sent to No. 4 PDC in May 1945 - but we don't know what he was doing there, so have no idea what his trade was. He then appears to have arrived at ACSEA (then in Kandy, Ceylon?) by June 1945 before being posted to No.227 Group (then at Agra, India?) in February 1946 before being posted to Chaklala in April 1946. He then appears to have come back to England, via Worli, in April 1947. Again, if anyone can provide any information that would 'flesh' out our skeletal knowledge of his career, my wife and I would be very grateful. Cheers, Andrew

[MPN11]

The Burma Star story thickens, as Chaklala and potential Air Despatch was post-War! Kandy is closer to the action, but still seemingly ex-theatre from this aspect. I shall muse further ... it’s intriguing!

[AndrewClark]

Many thanks MPN11. I just wish I had more information to work with! I can't even be sure that he went to Kandy - it's just that he was posted to ACSEA and I think it's headquarters were there at that time...... I really appreciate your help!

[Chugalug2]

AC, have you checked the Air of Authority site yet? The stations listed show all their various lodger units and dates, ie Chaklala and Feltwell. May be of some use to you:-

Stations-C (http://www.rafweb.org/Stations/Stations-C.htm#Chaklala)

Stations-F (http://www.rafweb.org/Stations/Stations-F.htm)

I would add that though one might be posted to an AHQ, Station, or Unit, one could be detached from there to anywhere within the Command, maybe for weeks or even months at a time. For example I was posted as a co-pilot to 48 Squadron FEAF, but the Squadron's operational supply dropping was done by detachment of crews to RAF Kuching, some 450 miles due East of our Changi base. I doubt you would find Kuching in my records (other than in my Log Book of course) but I was awarded a GSM for those detachments, not for being at Changi. Just a thought...

[Danny42C]

Folks , thanks again for your wonderful help so far, concerning my father-in-law's RAF service. To clarify, all we know of his movements are that, after completing basic training, he was posted to RAF Feltwell in February 1944 and appears to have stayed there until being sent to No. 4 PDC in May 1945 - but we don't know what he was doing there, so have no idea what his trade was. He then appears to have arrived at ACSEA (then in Kandy, Ceylon?)
AndrewClark,

Bit puzzled about your "4PDC" (obviously "Personnel" - something - Centre)", but would guess it would be a "Transit Camp", where he would've been issued Tropical Uniform (Khaki Drill for India - complete with "Bombay Bowler" !), inoculations brought up to date (plus Yellow Fever), and generally kicked around from dawn to dusk till he embarked on the Clyde when his ship came in. Do you know where this "PDC" was ? - many of the India contingent (including myself) went to Blackpool for overseas preparation beforeembarkation at Liverpoolor the Cyde.

ACSEA was in Ceylon, with Lord Mountbatten commanding. Unlike India (where there were no female British forces), he had Wrens in Ceylon, hence:

" I'll be an ACSEA hero,
And never see a Zero !
Why would I need an Enemy,
When We've got this Wrennery ? "

Good hunting ! Danny.

[ian16th]

Could the 'D' stand for Draft?

A body of men going somewhere was often a draft.

[Danny42C]

Invidious to name names, so thank you all for the concern, good wishes and sympathy heaped on me and my Mary (she is, literally, my "Life Support Machine").

Must be costing the NHS an arm and a leg to keep me alive. That being so, I say again "Dum spiro, scribo", and intend to be with you a while yet.

Life in old dog yet ! ........Danny.

[Warmtoast]

Andrew (your #12470)

he was posted to RAF Feltwell in February 1944 and appears to have stayed there until being sent to No. 4 PDC in May 1945 - but we don't know what he was doing there, so have no idea what his trade was

4 PDC is a Personnel Despatch Centre

I've checked my Service Record and when I was posted to S. Rhodesia in 1951 immediately before departure I attended 5 PDC at Hednesford in Staffordshire where one was kitted out with tropical kit etc. Record also shows that in 1956 before departure for the Far East I attended 5 PDU (Unit?) which had moved to Innsworth in Gloucestershire.

[BEagle]

My late father served as an officer in the Royal Bombay Sappers and MIners. He once mentioned that the WRNS in Ceylon were very friendly....:E

Rather wasted on Lord Louis though?

[Warmtoast]

My late father served as an officer in the Royal Bombay Sappers and MIners. He once mentioned that the WRNS in Ceylon were very friendly....:E

Rather wasted on Lord Louis though?

They were also very smart and quite good looking too as this photo of them lined up for inspection by Admiral Somerville (in Colombo?) in WW2 shows. (IWM Photo)

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x722/wrns_in_ceylon_ww2_inspected_by_admiral_somerville_2_2cf4e5f 9224fbc9de56ce98b4f66296553826911.jpg

[MPN11]

Warmtoast, my kitting for the Flakands in 83 was also done in a black wooden hut at Innsoworth. Retrns were, however, done at parent Unit ... in my case Uxbridge, parent Unit to the whole of MoD and much more besides (as I was posted from Stanley to 11 Gp at Bentley Priory).

[Chugalug2]

The entourage behind the Admiral in Warmtoast's pic seems to be almost as long as the Wrens' front rank. Presumably those Wrens didn't suffer a corresponding indignity to we Flight Cadets at Sleaford Tech, of the Inspecting Officer saying, "Take his name", despite the SNCO doing the 'taking' knowing it anyway! Just as well if the instruction had to be passed along the length of that queue.

[Warmtoast]

Re the WRNS photo in my post above, here they are in their billet c/w Mossie nets over their beds.
Lady on the right appears to be checking her iPhone, but surely not - way back in 1944!

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x582/wrns_20in_20ceylon_20ww2_800x582_zpsw3aosrmb_6beec3d4f131c52 5812a76b56fc3ae0440e671d7.jpg

WRNS weren't the only white service women in Ceylon during WW2. The WAAF were there too as these two photos of WAAFs disembarking from a Troopship in Colombo Harbour and eating in their own dining room (location in Ceylon not specified).

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/395x577/waafsinceylonww2_2_zpsec001272_b59094b069680354d04366c43682b d75a6e34ded.jpg

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x634/waafsinceylonww2_zpsb02f31a7_5e20b5c981ed18d2db22bda9e6cb753 84d7099f5.jpg

IWM Photos

[MPN11]

Last photo, chap on right ... "I don't fancy yours either".


< oops, wrong thread ... Taxi!! >

[BernieC]

In the images of WAAFs & WRENS, the roofing material looks a bit like palm or banana leaf. Is it?

[Warmtoast]

In the images of WAAFs & WRENS, the roofing material looks a bit like palm or banana leaf. Is it?

Palm leaves. In Gan in the Maldives they called it 'Kadjan' seen here being woven. Principle is the same in Ceylon (Sri Lanka). See coconut palm trees off the end of Katuayake's (Negombo) runway in bottom photo. Palm leaves are a natural material not to be ignored when it comes to roofing or walling and are used extensively in Maldives and Sri Lanka.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/400x399/kajunmaking_zps82d33144_96018eda62f14c0b79fcc62756fb07d83221 3703.jpg

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x509/kat_201980_2a_zpsk3wetsvq_b8817c026b5c003f2c630bd802748b67f9 2c230c.jpg

[GANNET FAN]

MPN11, re your comments on the Burma Star, can you tell me the difference between the Burma Star and Pacific Star. My father, who was with HMS Exeter when she sank and a subsequent POW, has what I thought was the Burma Star with Burma clasp. but in the files he left the medal is shown as Pacific Star.
Grateful for your or anyone's help.
Many thanks

[goofer3]

Just a quick explanation. Persons qualifying for both the Burma Star and the Pacific Stars were awarded the first star earned with a clasp or bar on the ribbon to denote that qualifying service for the second star had been rendered. The possession of a bar is indicated by a silver rose emblem on the ribbon when it is worn alone. [ H. Taprell Dorling, Ribbons and Medals].

[Warmtoast]

Gannet Fan

Given that HMS Exeter was sunk in the Java Sea between Java and Borneo the location is nearer the Pacific than Burma, which may be an explanation as to why he had the Pacific Star. Map of where your father's ship was sunk here:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=second+battle+of+the+java+sea+map&hl=en-GB&rlz=1T4GGHP_en-GBGB728GB729&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj60M6w0MLeAhVHDcAKHflDAa0Q_AUIDigB&biw=1460&bih=790#imgrc=YSpTXKtdcn3qVM:&spf=1541605606812

[Chugalug2]

GN, you could earn the Pacific Star (for qualifying time in that region) or the Burma Star (ditto) but not both medals, even though ticking both boxes. The details of duration dates and locations are given by Wiki:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Star

My dad got the Pacific Star awarded (though he never received it as he died in Japan as a POW). I applied for and received it, together with the corresponding 39-45 Star and War Medal, as they had not been claimed until I became NoK.

PS pipped at the post by g3, who rightly says that a bar or rosette is worn on the first medal ribbon or ribbon alone respectively to denote the other Star

[Chugalug2]

BernieC, the collective noun for such roofing, in Borneo at least, was 'Attap'. Wiki redirects that to Nypa, a fruitican also known as the Nipa Palm. Prevalent throughout the Indian and Pacific Ocean areas, its leaves are excellent for thatching uses as Warmtoast says. Wiki, as ever, tells all:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nypa_fruticans

A favourite haunt for Beetles, they came cascading down onto the floor when you all jumped up and down in unison to Bert Kaempfurt's 'Swinging Safari' set at full volume, but that's another story...

[Fareastdriver]

On my Jungle Survival Course we were taught to slice the frond along the back of the spine, fold it over face to face and tie it to our lean to rafters. Next one went halfway over until you reached the ridge.

It kept the rain out.

[MPN11]

On my Jungle Survival Course we were taught to slice the frond along the back of the spine, fold it over face to face and tie it to our lean to rafters. Next one went halfway over until you reached the ridge.

It kept the rain out.
Military Skills, never needed again! The list coukd be incredibly long, but that might cause severe Thread Deviation!

[Chugalug2]

I shouldn't worry, MPN. Ever since Danny concluded his own story re the OP it has been constant thread deviation. That's its charm :ok:

[MPN11]

I shouldn't worry, MPN. Ever since Danny concluded his own story re the OP it has been constant thread deviation. That's its charm :ok:
Strange but true! I just felt it had offered potential to disappear into the undergrowth, rather like Danny's Vengeance! :)

Apart from a meticulous Domestic filing system (both paper and electronic) I'm not sure what Mil Skills I carry these days.

[Chugalug2]

Quite apart from the individual trade/branch skills we learned, the basic training we shared in common stays with us, wanted or not! Ironing and neatly putting away, tidying up before calling it a night, planning ahead day by day. Are others afflicted with such retentive habits, or is it just me?

[ancientaviator62]

Chugalug,
my wife says she recognises the description !

[AndrewClark]

I've really appreciated everyone's help on this, but I have one final question. There's an entry on my Father-in-Law's Form 543 which says something like "21 Q & IL PARTY - RAF Worli (A Rel.). I'm pretty sure that means he was sent to Worli for a ship back to the UK fpre demob. but what would a "Q & IL PARTY" be? Again, any suggestions welcome! Thanks, Andrew

[MPN11]

'A Rel.' ~ Admin Release? Pure guess, of course!

'Q & IL' is an odd one. 'Q' ~ Quartering or Quartermaster? Ahhh ... Quartermaster and Indian Labour?? Loading [or supervising of] stores onto ships for return to UK?

[AndrewClark]

Thanks again MPN11, That's a possibility, I'm just wondering now if it could be 'G & IL', rather than 'Q & IL'. I (think!) I've attached an, image.... what do you think? Cheers, A

[AndrewClark]

Ah, don't seem to be able to upload - user incompetence!!

[Sandisondaughter]

Sorry if this is not strictly related to main discussion on this thread but I thought someone here may be able to help. As well as my father being a Lanc Pilot in WW2, my mother's father joined the RCAF in March 1918 shortly before the RAF was established. I have his service record but am struggling to get more details about 15 Squadron's activities in the final months of the war and afterwards in 1919, when my grandfather was stationed in France at the age of 18.

Also in terms of his own record, his trade is given as Wrlss Op Lnr 18 A 55 (not sure what the Lnr 18 A 55 bit means?). Attached are the movements listed on his record but all handwritten. The only initials I understand are BEF - the rest is a mystery to me. Can anyone point me to sources of help a) for 15 Squadron's first world war activity and b) for understanding the service record abbreviations? I also have a photo of the Squadron taken in France on 1 Dec 1918 which must be of interest to some archive? Very many thanks in advance again and once again apologies for being off-thread.