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Danny42C
21st Nov 2014, 23:00
MPN11 (your #6497),

I would think that would be true. But in the early days, when a number of them were still grass, they had been ingeniously camouflaged by the simple means of painting black tar "hedges" across them, dividing them up into quite normal looking "fields". I believe the same idea has been used to produce instant "olive groves" (as seen from the air, that is), in order to get hand-outs from the Common Agricultural Policy without the tedious neccesity of actually planting any trees.

Our "hedges" were stunningly effective, so although there might be five airfields there, you could only see two or three of them....... D.


mmitch (your #6498),

I would think that the beaches were pretty well defended already with barbed wire and mines ("Dad's Army" - "Pike" !). But if an invasion force was actually getting ashore, it would follow that the enemy had already established air superiority over the beaches; plenty of Me109s would be buzzing about; the slow and almost defenceless Lysander would not last very long.

That Churchill would have used gas we shall never know. In extremis you will use anything. In one of my later Indian Posts I speculated that our ostensible "Chemical Defence Research Establishment" might have been secretly harbouring "offensive" ideas (for retaliation only, if need arose)......D.

DHfan (aren't we all ? - your #6499),

Yes, after my recent Post I looked it up to check: seems there was such a beast, but only one. This would been at Boscombe Down, so my informant must either have been a TP there, or another Walter Mitty, of we've had our share !

I'll say they had to shorten the fuselage ! - with that great bob-weight on the end of the tail ! I suppose they could have fixed a block of concrete under the nose (à la the "Blue Circle" Fighter), to balance it, but then the thing would never leave the ground.......D.

Worf (your #6500),

Thank you for reinforcing my recent remark that "Bharat Rakshak" is a mine of good stories, and introducing us to the links on it (I speak as one who saw action with 8 Sqdn, IAF).

Many silly things were said in HQs far from that action ("He jests at scars that never felt a wound" [Shakespeare]). But in this instance they were right in fact (Majumdar was operating in a time of retreat, but that has no relevance: acts of gallantry are, if anything, more numerous in those circumstances).

But to infer from that they were in some way less praiseworthy on that account is monstrous: I hope your Blimp has been misunderstood in his remarks......D.

Cheers to you all, Danny.

Pom Pax
22nd Nov 2014, 06:47
Whilst on the subject of 75 (NZ) squadron similar to the remarks on S/L Karun Krishna Majumdar, their Airships had reservations on the award to Sgt James Ward. "The recommendation for a VC was a matter of discussion at the time. Senior RAF officers questioned whether a VC was appropriate since his actions had some aspect of self-preservation."
The Aircraft (http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205210092) & Sgt Ward (http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205210078)

Danny42C
22nd Nov 2014, 17:23
Pom Pax (your #6503),

You quote: "Senior RAF officers questioned whether a VC was appropriate since his actions had some aspect of self-preservation". When do they not when you're in a tight corner ? I would take issue with that.

Captains Burkill (777 at Heathrow) and Sullenberger (A320 in the Hudson river) were widely fêted as heroes. In fact, they saved themselves and in so doing saved (in both cases) everyone else on board. What motivated them ? In so far as they were "heroes" at all, did the fact that they saved themselves as well as others detract from their achievement ? Certainly not !!

How would the argument run if there were no one on board behind the Flight Deck ? It's the Chicken and Egg problem again (they can't save themselves without saving the aeroplane and vice versa).

D.

pzu
22nd Nov 2014, 18:14
Captains Burkill (777 at Heathrow) and Sullenberger (A320 in the Hudson river) were widely fêted as heroes. In fact, they saved themselves and in so doing saved (in both cases) everyone else on board. What motivated them ? In so far as they were "heroes" at all, did the fact that they saved themselves as well as others detract from their achievement ? Certainly not !!

And also Danny they both 'missed the school'!!! :ok:

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

smujsmith
23rd Nov 2014, 22:21
With great respect gentlemen, both the Heathrow 777 and the arrival in the "Hudson" were the result of proper, trained for, emergencies that could happen to any professional pilot any day of their working lives. When it comes to heroes, we mustn't lose sight of the fact that our chaps in WW1, WW2 and even subsequent conflicts, having been threatened on numerous occasions, still mounted their aircraft and set off to once again serve their country. I make no apology in saying that no politician, sportsman or celebrity can truly claim the attribute of Hero, though many happily do, for doing a job which offers no threat, and is genouriusly paid. My analogy is the Private soldier, accepting his third tour in Afghanistan, on a £20k salary, whilst Wayne Rooney (Hero of Man U) earns £25k a week. The word is abused by the media left right and centre, perhaps some of us can still recognise what a real hero is.

Smudge

Union Jack
23rd Nov 2014, 22:34
.....whilst Wayne Rooney (Hero of Man U) earns £25k a week. - Smudge

On a point of order, Smudge, he may only be worth £25K a week, but I understand that he is actually paid £300K a week!:eek:

Jack

smujsmith
23rd Nov 2014, 22:42
UJ,

Thanks for that, I stand corrected.

Smudge:ok:

Union Jack
24th Nov 2014, 08:57
Not intended as a correction at all, Smudge, so much as an amplification of your very well made point.:ok:

That said, I might also have allowed my self to make just the tiniest suggestion that there is a great difference between what people earn and what they are paid....... :)

Jack

Fantome
24th Nov 2014, 10:02
. .. . while not wanting to sell you in any sense up the river Smudge . . ..

. .. for Potomac I think read Hudson

smujsmith
24th Nov 2014, 13:35
Fantome, UJ,

Thank you both, I suspect that dementia is already having an affect:ugh: My mistake has now been corrected happily.

Smudge:ok:

Danny42C
24th Nov 2014, 15:49
Fantome and Smudjsmith,

Well spotted ! It was a sad story (Title on Wiki above gives all details). Far be it from me to criticise any other pilot - for where is one who has never made a mistake under pressure ? - but Captains Burkill and Sullenberger were both highly skilful and professional - and also damned lucky !

In any case, nil nisi bonum should apply.

D.

MPN11
24th Nov 2014, 16:45
From my 'Ivory Tower' I have seen many pilots get it right/wrong in those compressed few seconds when it mattered.

Sadly some got it wrong, for one reason or another, and are no longer with us. Other survived through luck or skill, and went on to fight and fly another day.

I would note that it's not a nice feeling watching a fireball [or a pile of debris] on the airfield, seen from the prime vantage point, occupied by someone you were drinking with the previous evening. I suspect many here have had the same experience.

26er
24th Nov 2014, 18:49
The old ones are the best !!!!


When I moved into this area some 30 years ago I became aware of Bicester Garrison. You couldn't get into the local pubs at lunchtime or in the evenings (time of The Falklands) for throngs of civil servants working overtime. I asked "how many people work at the garrison?" and was told "about half of them".

ValMORNA
24th Nov 2014, 20:48
I didn't realise this was a civil-servant bashing thread . . .


Theresa May said, today, in a speech, that over 700 terrorist plots in this country had been countered. Perhaps all civil servants in MI5 and MI6 should be culled? A useful money-saving device?

harrym
25th Nov 2014, 17:39
On arrival at Mingaladon initial impressions were reasonably favourable. Being an inland site rather than coastal the rainfall was notably less, while our squadron's domestic site was down a sandy track in an area of low scrub and a few trees; best of all, we were directed to a new tent among a group already erected awaiting our arrival – a distinct improvement over our welcome at Akyab! However, there were drawbacks: the main one, given lesser rainfall due to an inland location plus the tail end of the monsoon season, that water (other than for drinking) was less easily come by, having to be collected by bucket from a barely adequate well some distance away.

At this time (latter part of August) only a cease-fire prevailed as there had been no official surrender by the Japanese, hostilities being suspended rather than ceased. To the east of Burma lay the vast areas of Thailand and French Indo-China, containing large numbers of Japanese troops plus those of our own people who had survived 3 ½ years of captivity in their hands. No land communication existed through the jungle-clad hills in between, other than the much-bombed and rickety railway built by our POWs and native forced labour under brutal supervision, while access by sea meant a long and laborious voyage south round Singapore and then back up north – so it fell to us to fly in our occupying troops plus anything else they needed, and bring back the ex-POWs to Rangoon from where they would sail home to UK. Following some shuttle flights back to Akyab to complete the unit move, this was to be our primary task for the whole of September.

Not long after our arrival a Japanese delegation flew in from Bangkok to settle surrender terms for their forces in the Burma-Thailand-IndoChina area, its arrival conflicting with a wave of (our) inbound traffic that was instructed to orbit while the two Jap aircraft landed. Initially however they were nowhere in sight, and so the circuit soon became crowded with up to twenty Daks (including ours) going round in a circle. Eventually their two aircraft appeared, but after landing backtracked at a snail’s pace so taking an age to clear the runway. Overcome with impatience I grabbed my hand mike, snarling “get a move on you little yellow b------s” or words to that effect, to receive in return a barrage of “hear hears” and sundry less polite expletives, the tower plaintively replying (when they could get a word in) “sorry, we have no radio contact with our visitors”!

It was a short flight of about two & a quarter hours to Bangkok, with Saigon three hours or so further on. The outbound loads consisted mainly of stores needed by our own occupation troops, while return flights were either flown empty or with groups of our own recently liberated men. Expecting a load of zombie-like creatures, I remember being surprised (as were we all) by their relative fitness; for sure they were all on the slim side, but almost without exception were able to walk up to and board the aircraft without assistance – not only that, they bore themselves in a well-disciplined and confident manner and I was happy that my 21st birthday was passed ferrying a load of mainly Gordon Highlanders back to Rangoon – what better way to celebrate the occasion? No doubt there were some stretcher cases but I never saw them, and some weeks had elapsed since the Japanese surrender during which time great efforts would have been made to succour our ex-prisoners by means of air-dropped supplies and other means.

Part of the return flight took us close to the notorious railway where it crossed the mountain range separating Burma and Thailand, and we were surprised to be asked by our passengers if it was possible to fly over it so they could have a last look. To us it was a strange request – after all their suffering, surely it would be the last thing any sane person would want? – but we did our best to comply, on one occasion even seeing a train, but usually the hills were covered in heavy cloud and rainstorms. On reflection, I suppose it was a way of saying a last goodbye to their lost mates lying buried below.

A change came early next month with the first task being to lift an occupying force into the Moulmein area, a short flight across the Gulf of Martaban. The airfield at Moulmein was fairly basic and then still under Japanese control, but at this distance in time I cannot recall much about the facilities (or lack of them) except that the parking area was manned by their personnel and that such marshalling instructions we received hardly conformed to standard RAF procedures. The Japs were I think rather overwhelmed by having to deal with such a large number of aircraft, and I got the impression that the individual in front of us, vaguely waving his two flags in a totally incomprehensible manner, was trying to park us on a spot enclosed by some white lines on the ground; but his guidance, such as it was, was so incomprehensible that in the end I decided for myself exactly where to stop. Speaking to one of our advance ground party a few minutes later I asked him just what the lines represented: “look over there”, he said, pointing to a very lopsided Dakota a short distance away, “he has fallen into a booby trap like the one you have just avoided, you were supposed to keep outside of the white lines!”.

By this time the backlog of ex-POWs had been cleared from Bangkok, so other destinations such as Saigon began to figure. The political situation in Indo-China (AKA Vietnam) was tricky, with many of the locals objecting to re-imposition of European rule, while the fact of us being Brits rather than Frogs was irrelevant to them; as it was, some French forces were already beginning to trickle in so they had a point but, being their allies, we were bound to support them rather than any local rebels/freedom fighters or whatever. A similar situation on a larger scale existed in Indonesia, where we became unwillingly dragged into a struggle against Dutch rule.

Indeed Saigon became a welcome night stop, offering as it did facilities markedly superior to our accustomed tented accommodation and indifferent grub – but my first flight into its oddly-named Tan son Nhut airfield came close to possible disaster. For some forgotten reason our turn round at Bangkok was delayed, so departure into a gloomy sky was not until late afternoon. Approaching Saigon in the fading early evening light the ground below appeared to be largely flooded, but we were reassured by the airfield beacon's steady signal while the tower informed us all was well despite a fairly low cloud base and accompanying light rain. Having been previously warned that a radio station abutted the airfield I closely studied the (rather inadequate) map, but was relieved to see that it was shown as being reasonably well clear; so, given clearance to join the circuit pattern I manoeuvred to join downwind in the approved manner at a lower than usual height of around 5-600ft. I was therefore somewhat alarmed when a passenger (who happened to be my flight commander) appeared and said he had just seen a radio mast go past his window (!), however a vigorous scan by myself and the co-pilot revealed nothing untoward and so we continued on to land. As we decelerated after touchdown I was slightly startled by the sight of a Japanese sentry at the runway's edge presenting arms, later wondering if this was some form of tribute – for, as we disembarked, the radio station's obstruction lights burst into brilliant life, delineating the masts' great height in stark clarity. Indeed without doubt we must have flown through at least part of the forest of masts and cables, avoiding catastrophe by sheer chance.

On subsequent night stops we were accommodated in the town's Majestic Hotel (a considerable improvement on our accustomed tents), but on this first occasion we found ourselves in an adequate if rather decayed colonial bungalow. The next morning, going out to the veranda to fetch some water from one of the enormous Ali Baba-style urns that seemed to be its sole source, I was startled by a sudden crashing noise accompanied by a peculiar hissing sound emanating from a grinning Jap sentry presenting arms – fixed bayonet and all! It transpired that the Japs were now providing much of the security for us, at any rate until such time as there were enough of our own troops available and/or the situation stabilised; but for some time yet they rendered many other services, such as drivers MT, loading/unloading aircraft etc – the most surprising of which however, was providing aircraft and crews for internal air services within Indo-China.

It was indeed a strange feeling to be sharing the airfield with them, and the Jap crews were kept fairly busy until around the end of the year when they were stood down; I was told that they had exhausted stocks of their own fuel, Japanese aircraft apparently not being partial to our brand of avgas, but maybe the French had got themselves better organised by then. Mostly they used a twin engine low wing bird, capable of carrying probably a maximum of 12-15 pax, but I did also notice one or two of their DC3 copies parked about although never in flight.

In course of time Saigon became an eagerly anticipated night stop. The Majestic, although somewhat run down and dilapidated, was comfortable enough by the standards we had become used to and was well situated on a busy corner close to the town's main wharf on the Saigon river; seated on the hotel's terrace with drink in hand, the passing scene provided much variety – maybe an ocean-going ship or two, white-clad local girls on old fashioned bikes mixing it with French army dispatch riders on their Harleys, locals of various shapes and sizes, perhaps even an ancient locomotive performing some desultory shunting on the quayside, while the town centre itself retained a strong southern French character, its shady tree-lined streets lined with buildings of almost Mediterannean appearance. There were rumours of possible trouble with the Annamites, as the local Vietnamese opposition were then known, but it was mostly out in the country and the city remained secure at that time.

By the end of October the tasking emphasis on the Bangkok-Saigon run lessened somewhat, and we started to range out in other directions; which will be covered in the next instalment.


Here I must ask for help from those more knowledgeable than myself. I would like to add an attachment to a future post, but a little box at the bottom of the screen says 'attachments not allowed' – so how do I go about it?

pzu
25th Nov 2014, 17:44
OFF subject but may be of interest to some who frequent this thread

What i call 'That photo', taken by my late Dad Ken Crossley, then an RAF(VR) F/Sgt A/G on attachment to 31 Sqd SAAF -70 years ago today, has been used in many publications

Subject is 31 Sqd Liberator B MkVI KG937 'K' - King, on a daylight supply mission to Tito's partisans - from Dad's log (he was in P 249) load was 12 x 330lb containers from 2000ft

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e18/colin97/424618_10151153685589701_1967109638_n_zps7cea061a.jpg?t=1416 966297

For info the Mid Upper Gunner of 'K' - King was also an RAF(VR) A/G then Sgt Ivor Worsfold, who recently celebrated (along with his twin brother) his 93rd birthday

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

smujsmith
25th Nov 2014, 18:17
Harrym,

Fear not, there is a resident expert on attachments etc, who I'm sure will be along with a PM shortly, to explain the mysteries of posting on PPRUNE. Meanwhile, yet another cracking episode that segues nicely through to post war activities. I'm sure there's more to come.

Smudge:ok:

ValMORNA
25th Nov 2014, 20:11
pzu,


Re your post #6515, the link to the photograph is not working for me, 'This page can not be displayed.'

pzu
26th Nov 2014, 01:01
pzu,

Re your post #6515, the link to the photograph is not working for me, 'This page can not be displayed.'

Apologies, hopefully now fixed

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

MPN11
26th Nov 2014, 08:48
Is that K or K ??

The underline suggesting that the codes had gone from A-Z and started again at A ... implying a very large sqn UE.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e18/colin97/424618_10151153685589701_1967109638_n_zps7cea061a.jpg (http://s36.photobucket.com/user/colin97/media/424618_10151153685589701_1967109638_n_zps7cea061a.jpg.html)

pzu
26th Nov 2014, 10:03
MPN11

It's K Apparently SAAF (at least the Liberator Squadrons) did not use Squadron Codes as per RAF, so 31 Squadron underlined their a/c codes and 34 didn't

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

Chugalug2
26th Nov 2014, 11:26
harrym, you are without doubt our writer in residence! The confusing yet historic days that you recount suddenly spring into the present, so vivid is your description of them. So thank you for donning the mantle, a necessary accessory when standing by the crewroom mantlepiece (which of course should always have upon it a freshly charged glass of your favourite tipple to assist you in your oratory). More please, together with the detailed dotting of i's with which you excel!

As to attachments, do you mean a picture? If so, then they are done using the symbol at the top of the posting box that I always mistake for a stamped envelope, but is supposed to represent a mountain range with the sun above. That will enable you to post a link to the picture's 'address' which means you need to put the picture into that address beforehand. This FAQ list covers attachments and pics:-

http://www.pprune.org/faq.php?faq=vb3_reading_posting#faq_vb3_attachments

Catch-22 says that attachments are not allowed on PPRuNe, so a pic (or image) it has to be. Photobucket is one of the sites you can use as your image 'address':-

http://photobucket.com/

You register with them for free, and in return you have an online 'album' into which you can post digital (ie scanned) pics. I found it a bit daunting at first, but persistence pays off and suddenly there is your image within your post on thread! Hope that helps. Others with more tech savvy will no doubt be along soon to clarify and correct any confusion I have engendered. Sorry! ;-)

Danny42C
26th Nov 2014, 13:54
Laptop going into dock. Incommunicado for a while. :(

D.

harrym
26th Nov 2014, 13:57
Many thanks smujsmith & chugalug, the item I wish to 'attach' is actually a scanned document so will have a go in my next post - or possibly the one after, which will probably take me up to demob in late '46.

Union Jack
26th Nov 2014, 14:16
Laptop going into dock. Incommunicado for a while. - Danny

Just so long as you don't!:ok:

Jack

Fareastdriver
26th Nov 2014, 17:53
A scanned document is a picture. there are stacks in this thread so go to photobucket and treat it like a picture.

MPN11
26th Nov 2014, 18:41
The only Photobucket trick is to ensure you use the bottom link when copying and pasting ... the one that says "IMG".

Click on that, and it should say 'Copied" ... then revert to your PPRuNe post and "Paste"

Danny42C
26th Nov 2014, 19:07
Union Jack,

Never fear - Danny is still here !

(Laptop in dock TFN, but cadged laptop time from daughter - bless her!)

harrym,

Let me add my congratulations on a further instalment of your saga ! It is one of the strange paradoxes of war that you seem to be having a much harder time of it after hostilities ended than we had had when the squadrons were actually fighting it !

But I suppose that was inevitable, for it was obvious that whereas we could all stand down and relax, you had to start on the enormous task of recovering our prisoners and moving vast numbers of men and amounts of materials into position to await sea transport back to uk.

One last thought: your Daks would all have been Lend-Lease supplied. How did the RAF get round that ? (I was grudgungly allowed to carry on using my VVs until March'46 before scrapping them, but surely the US would want its Daks back ASAP).

Danny.

ValMORNA
26th Nov 2014, 20:29
I was told by a resident 'expert' at the Cosford Air Museum, after querying the line drawn under an ident letter on one of their exhibits, that Coastal Command aircraft were so plentiful on some squadrons that they did, indeed, run out of letters and used the underline to denote 'barred'-letters when used on W/T. ('Barred'-letters, as in Japanese morse code, known as Kata-Kana, and transcribed with the line above the letter.)

harrym
27th Nov 2014, 17:22
Yes Danny I fancy the so-called RAF 'strikes' in our theatre around the end of '45 were partly related to a noticeable deterioration in living conditions, hope to say a bit more in a subsequent post.

As for return of lend-lease Daks, somehow UK seemed to manage to hang onto them for a few more years post-war: I remember seeing many stored at Silloth in August '47, and know for sure some were still at Abingdon in '48 while I believe quite a few soldiered on in the Far East into the early fifties.

Occasional odd specimens popped up much later; I recall one lost in a fatal accident at Dishforth in the late fifties, and was able to enjoy a bit of circuit-bashing in others on two later occasions - at Aden in 1960, and Brize as late as '82!

Many thanks to you and others for hints re image insertion into posts, which will be put to good use.

Danny42C
27th Nov 2014, 18:39
valMORNA,

On a totally unrelated topic: somebody once told me that Special Constable Police Inspectors had a "bar" below their pips to distinguish them from the "regulars" (don't know if it's true).

They were known as "Bar-starred Inspectors". :ok:

D.

Danny42C
27th Nov 2014, 18:57
harrym,

The "strikes" were mainly in the Western side: I don't think living conditions were much worse than before. It was rather a case of boredom among large numbers of troops being cooped up in Transit camps, with little or nothing to do, and all itching to get home for "demob"; the situation was not helped by rumours (however ill- founded) that all the shipping was being used on the Atlantic route to repatriate US troops first.

D.

MPN11
27th Nov 2014, 19:32
PZU ... Thanks for that. An interesting variation on the normal system I had mentioned, which ValMORNA confirmed recently.

The world of aircraft markings is a 'fascinating topic' and new oddments occasionally surface.

FantomZorbin
27th Nov 2014, 20:36
Danny, my father was a Special in the Met., the only difference in the insignia was a 'badge' of SC surmounted by a crown that sat 'above' the usual rank badges. The ranks were the same except that the equivalent of Commander for the Met. was a Commandant for the Special.


But all this was a long time ago, when the Police were treated with respect and the Constables weren't as young as they are now!!

smujsmith
27th Nov 2014, 20:53
Danny #6531,

You naughty young chap, I hope fantomzorbin is turning a blind eye to your pun:rolleyes:

Smudge:ok:

FantomZorbin
28th Nov 2014, 08:25
Smudge
Pun duly noted in my notebook :E
Danny is right though, Specials in some constabularies were 'bar-starred' and it's possible the Met followed suit later.

Danny42C
28th Nov 2014, 17:18
Fantom Zorbin and Smudge,

FZ, your:

"Specials in some constabularies were 'bar-starred' and it's possible the Met followed suit later" ....... My room mate at OTU was an ex-Met constable. It's quite possible that I heard the story from him.

and

"and the Constables weren't as young as they are now!!"...... It's when you can say the same of the Popes that you need to worry !

D.

smujsmith
28th Nov 2014, 18:48
Danny, having included special constables to your original post of special inspectors can we now assume that you affirm that "all coppers are bar-starred" ? :eek: Perhaps I should lie low for a few weeks!!

Smudge:ok:

Danny42C
28th Nov 2014, 22:58
Smudge,

No, you may not assume anything of the kind ! (Brother-in-law is a retired Chief Inspector !!) :=

Danny.

PS: Laptop back from MOT, invigorated, firing on all cylinders now! :ok:

Danny42C
30th Nov 2014, 23:07
As this Thread has been running for 6 years, has generated 6,500+ Posts spread over 327 Pages and is still going strong, it occurred to me that some of our more recently joined contributors may not have had the time or the stamina to work through all the "back numbers".

This would be a pity, for many of them are well worth digging out, and I thought I would point the way to one of the most exciting and "cliff-hangering" of them all. This is regle's (RIP) account of the Tel Aviv hijack (42 years back this last May), when he wasa 707 Captain with SABENA.

I thought to list pages and Post numbers. From memory, I'm sure the whole story was brilliantly written out in great detail by Reg from beginning to end, but now it seeems that the most dramatic part (the end) has been taken down. No matter: here is the "steer"to what is still on Thread:

30th May 2010, p.89 #1776 Flight to Hell Aviv

1st Jun 2010, p.90 #1786 The time has come...

"And there I must leave you again until the next instalment"

3rd Jun 2010, p.90 #1790 More...

4th Jun 2010, p.90 #1796 Into the Lion's den.

5th Jun 2010, p.90 #1798 A new day dawns...

6th Jun 2010, p.91 #1801 Enough is as good as a feast.....

and:

"I am going to disappoint a lot of people but I have come to the conclusion that it is better to leave you all "cliff hanging" as it were. so there will be no more on the events of nearly forty years ago from me. It left an indelible scar upon my life and the life of my family and I pay homage to the people of all faiths who suffered . Please understand. Regle"

Reg died on 1st August 2010.

Wiki has the whole story (Sabena Flight 571), but, as I recollect, it was (originally) much more completely and better told by Reg himself on this Thread, where he carried on Posting (at the time) after #1801 until the successful end of the affair (marred only by the later death of one passenger wounded in the firefight). (And, IIRC, Reg flew the aircraft back to Brussels the next day !)

He was (rightly) fêted for his coolness and acumen throughout; he was honoured by the Belgian King; the story was told in the media around the world, exciting admiration and respect on all sides.

Why these his final Posts were taken down (presumably by him) is a mystery to me, but of course "we understand", Reg, and we must not pry or speculate now or ever. So, from one old Arnold Scheme Aviation Kay-Det to another: Cheers, Reg !

Requiescas in Pace.

Danny.

Warmtoast
1st Dec 2014, 16:55
Danny42C


Why these his final Posts were taken down (presumably by him) is a mystery to me


I assume something about them must have upset him. I posted some UK press cuttings about the event and he asked me to remove them, which I did (Page 91 Posts #1806 and #1807 refer)


Meanwhile your post prompted me to explore further and was surprised to learn that a young (Lieutenant at the time) Benjamin Netanyahu participated in the rescue and was wounded.


Two years ago there was a conference held in Israel to mark the 40th anniversary of the Sabena rescue mission. As reported in the Jerusalem Post at the time.


On May 8, 1972, four Palestinian terrorists from Black September boarded Sabena Flight 571 from Vienna to Tel Aviv. Twenty minutes after taking off from a scheduled stop, the hijackers took control of the flight and instructed the captain to continue as planned to Israel’s Lod Airport (now Ben Gurion International Airport). Less than 24 hours later, Israeli commandos, among them today’s most prominent Israeli leaders, launched a daring operation to rescue the flight’s passengers and retake the plane.
Soon after realizing the gravity of the situation, English-born Captain Reginald Levy radioed ahead to Israel to notify authorities of the terrorist plot flying towards them at hundreds of miles per hour. Then-defense minister Moshe Dayan immediately began organizing a response, a perhaps far-fetched plan to rescue the passengers.
In initial contacts, the hijackers made their demands: They would free the passengers and crew in exchange for the release of over 300 Palestinian prisoners held by Israel.
After nightfall, hours after the plane had parked near Lod Airport’s lone terminal, Israeli forces carefully snuck under the plane to deflate its tires and disable its hydraulic systems. In an attempt to calm the terrorists after they discovered the plane had been disabled, Captain Levy kept them occupied through the night with constant chatter, discussing “everything under the sun … from navigation to sex,” he later recalled.
In the morning, the hijackers sent the plane’s captain to show the Israelis that they indeed possessed adequate explosives to destroy the plane. Levy, realizing that the only hope for him and the passengers (one of whom was his wife) lay in the hands of the Israelis, provided them with detailed about the hijackers’ whereabouts and the layout of the plane.
Armed with a better understanding of what they were up against, 16 commandos from the elite Sayeret Matkal unit disguised themselves as airplane mechanics. The team was commanded by current Defense Minister Ehud Barak. Other members of the team included current Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu, former MK and Mossad chief Danny Yatom and former MK Uzi Dayan. The commandos approached the plane and pretended to examine the equipment on its underbelly.

Having successfully reached the plane without raising suspicion, the commandos quickly removed the Boeing 707’s emergency exit doors and immediately engaged the terrorists. “It was over quickly, in seconds,” former Sayeret Matkal soldier Eliezer Sacks recently recalled to The Jerusalem Post. Hours after being freed from the hijacked jetliner, one passenger told Channel 1, “We saw what appeared to be an ElAl crew approaching, within one minute [they] broke into plane. Within two minutes it was all over.”
Another passenger described the firefight, saying that first shots fired by the commandos hit one of the female hijackers in the rear of the plane who was gripping a hand grenade. The man, excitedly recalling the events to Channel 1, said he immediately grabbed the grenade and held the spoon down to stop it from exploding.
Two of the terrorists were killed in the raid and two others, females, were captured. One passenger was killed in the firefight and six passengers were wounded. Netanyahu was also shot during the operation, reportedly by friendly fire.
In a touching close to the story, 35 years after the Sabena crew and passengers were rescued, one of the commandos who took part in the raid returned Sabina Captain Reginald Levy’s captain hat to his daughter, Linda Lipschitz, then an editorial assistant at The Jerusalem Post. Levy, who remained in contact with Ehud Barak and President Shimon Peres for the remainder of his life, passed away last year at the age of 88.
Along with the Entebbe Operation four years later, the rescue of Sabena Flight 571 remains one of the most daring Sayeret Matkal operations known to the public. The operation has been studied and greatly praised by security forces the world over for its efficiency and success.
Steve Linde contributed to this report


Full details here together with two links to YouTube videos of the rescue:
This Week in History: Israeli commandos retake Flight 571 (http://www.jpost.com/Features/In-Thespotlight/This-Week-in-History-Israeli-commandos-retake-Flight-571)

Pom Pax
3rd Dec 2014, 15:55
After giving his morse demonstration my Father disappeared for a short while to reappear with a button stick and a cap band. He apologised for being so long but he couldn't find his housewife. Also he was sure his s.d. cap should have been with the slightly moth eaten cap band though the gilt on the badge was in pretty good order after being packed away for 38 years. Further it now came out that 3 of the four shoe brushes in daily use were of a similar vintage.

Warmtoast
4th Dec 2014, 08:51
Pom Pax

Shoe Brushes

after being packed away for 38 years. Further it now came out that 3 of the four shoe brushes in daily use were of a similar vintage
I can beat that. This 1950 vintage shoe brush, issued to me in 1951 is still in regular use - 63-years later!


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/ShoeBrush1950_zpsccef82e3.jpg

Pom Pax
4th Dec 2014, 09:35
IIRC my father's brushes had the same manufacturer's stamp. I expect they had about the same useful life but I never lived at home after leaving for National Service. And then when I visited in the sixties I had no need to use forthem........cavalry twill & Hush Puppies!

Warmtoast
4th Dec 2014, 19:43
the same manufacturer's stamp
ISTR the arrow logo indicated it was made by prisoners in one of HM's prisons, one of the few employment opportunities available to those locked away at the time.

Fantome
4th Dec 2014, 19:47
In his book, OUTBACK AIRMAN, Harry Purvis recounts how he went to Silloth to select two Dakotas for
The Sydney Morning Herald, to be used for newspaper deliveries from their base at Camden, just to the
SW of Sydney. That was towards the end of 1946. WG CDR Purvis says there were some 200 Dakotas
to choose from. By greasing the palm of the civilian in charge of disposals, he secured two of
best aircraft, KG 234 and KG 647. They went onto the Australian register as VH-SMH and VH-SMI,
respectively, arriving at Mascot on 14th Feb 1947.

VH-SMI is now VH-MIN , previously -

13459
42-93536
KG647
G-AIAZ
KG647
VH-SMI



http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa144/jokova_photos/IMG_20141205_072559_158.jpg

Harry Purvis about to climb aboard. (SMH photo)

Chris1012
5th Dec 2014, 19:01
Echo Danny's post, no problem with the length of pages, I couldn't stop reading! Some very interesting posts but Reg's told a great story, from being what you might call one of the cogs in the wheel of bomber command to a very personal account of demobilisation and his struggles and successes. If it was a biography, it would of done very well. I wish the posts had been kept, just because it is a story nobody will be able to tell again.
Somebody once said, every time someone who has lived a full life dies, it's like burning a book of memories. I would of loved to have asked him some questions about it.

Fareastdriver
5th Dec 2014, 19:29
It is quite possible, regretably, that as his identity was known through his actions in Tel Aviv, his family might have felt threatened by certain factions.

Danny42C
5th Dec 2014, 22:38
Fantome,

I'm surprised that the UK managed to find the dollars to "buy out" so many of the C-47s from the Lend-Lease Agreement after the end of WWII. We were told that that our options for the Vultee Vengeances (Mk.III) we had were stark: (a) hand them back to the US if they wanted them (they didn't), (b) buy them (with dollars) if we wanted to keep them (we didn't) or (c) destroy them completely so that no part of them could come back on the market (so we did).

(It seems that the Russians built thousands of C-47 lookalikes: Douglas never saw a cent).

Note that we'd bought (for dollars) many of the Mks.I and II VVs supplied in the early part of the war (around $63,000 apiece IIRC). It would have been a good idea to keep a few as museum specimens, but the lot went for scrap.

One lone VV survives in the world: a Mk.IV at the Camden Museum, Narellan, NSW, Aus. (the Museum stoutly maintains that it is a Mk.I; the thing is manifestly a Mk.IV with a Mk.I number painted on it). Chugalug and I spent quite time a while back on this Thread ferreting this out (and seem to have convinced Wiki, which quietly acnowledges it to be a Mk.IV). Mks.I, II and III are A-31s in US parlance, Mk.IV is an A-35, a different animal which looks exactly the same as the others until you notice the single .50 Browning at the back which replaced the twin .303s on all the rest.

As for the Lend-Lease Regulations, Wiki tells me that:

"The terms of the agreement provided that the materiel was to be used until time for the return or destruction. In practice very little equipment was returned. Supplies that arrived after the termination date were sold to Britain at a large discount for £1.075 billion, using long-term loans from the United States. Canada operated a similar program called Mutual Aid that sent a loan of $1 billion and $3.4 billion in supplies and services to Britain and Allies. The United States did not charge for aid supplied under this legislation".

Danny.

smujsmith
6th Dec 2014, 23:27
Perhaps it's appropriate to consider the situation at the end of WW2, when most of our ploughshares had been turned in to swords. I'm no enthusiast for the rapid dismissal of the people, and equipment, who were the essential cogs in the road to victory, but, the politicians had a need to give the people some payback for their suffering throughout the conflict. I've been reading a few books recently relating to RAF operations in the later years of the war, they all, without exception bemoan the destruction (perhaps the conversion of swords to ploughshares) of the huge numbers of bombers and fighters, that were essential to fight the battle. Having been heavily involved with our RAF C130 fleet throughout my time in the RAF, I feel, like others, that we are losing something. Yet a new aircraft is entering service, and just like the latest recruit, must be looked upon as progress, and improvement. I'm sure having several examples of all the aircraft that served our nation so well, across the world, in WW2 would be desirable, but then, the world is not perfect, and never was. For that reason, the recording of their experiences by Cliff, Reg, Danny and others is priceless for generations to come. long may it continue, I'm sure it has my attention. I for one would like to hear more of the transition from WW2 to the jet age and the Cold War. There must be a wealth of personal experience out there that would enhance the pages of this veritable tome. Come on lads, send in your two penneth, whatever the line.

Smudge:ok:

Danny42C
9th Dec 2014, 20:33
Seeing that this noble Thread has fallen into the doldrums of Page 2 of "Military Aviation" (although it is still attracting ca 1000 hits/day), and hoping that the Moderator is busy with his Christmas shopping, and has taken his eye off the ball, I make so bold as to put in this Post, the draft of which has been gathering dust for a twelvemonth on my Notepad.

When we were posted ('60) to RAF(G), Accounts gave us Dm @ 11.90/£ against a sterling cheque (nobody bothered with a Deutschmark bank account), and I think the Guilder over the border was around Fl10/£.

So the Dm was then worth 1/8.2d (purchasing power today approx £1), with the Dutch Fl slightly more. But when it came to coins, they were treated at parity; you could pay for (say) a 50-cent item in Holland with a Dm 1 coin, and get 50 cents change, if they had no pfennige in the till; if they had you got 50 of those instead. And vice versa in the German border towns. For otherwise all trade would come to a standstill while they were doing the sums (I saw my first pocket calculator only in '74 - a £42 "Sinclair" - supplied to me by C&E). Really, I suppose it all balanced out for them in the end. But it meant that we all walked round with a mixture of Dms, Pfennige, Guilden and Cents in our pockets all the time.

Soon after our arrival, on a Friday, they announced a slight depreciation of the exchange rate; from the Dm 11.90 to 11.70/£, to take effect from the Monday. This was a 1.7% drop, and in theory you could draw £1000 worth of Dm from Accts. (probably "kiting" a cheque to do it), and if you could get the Dm 11900 back into sterling and into your Bank before your cheque bounced, there was a £17 profit in it for you.

But IIRC, Accts would not exchange Dms for £s (or you could make a fortune with duty-cigarettes from the NAAFI), and I do not know any other way of doing it without incurring bank charges which would more than wipe out your profit. I never heard of anyone trying.

But it is sobering to think of this early step on the downward slide of sterling against the Deutchmark, which hit bottom on "Black Wednesday" in September'92 with Dm 2.77/£. Our inflation had been 4.3 times as bad as Germany's over the 32 years.

Inflation has been an important factor over my working lifetime of 1938 - 1986. I have read somewhere that there has been more inflation of the £ sterling since WW2 than in the preceding 600 years, and this may well be true. I should therefore like to put my ideas on this, and the social changes which have resulted from it, down on this Thread, although I realise that these matters are far removed from any direct relevance to it.

I venture to do this because (a) I'm comfortable writing for this audience, and hope that they are comfortable with me; (b) it has affected above all that generation whose sons provided the "Gainers of a RAF Pilot's Brevet in WW2" (and incurred such cruel losses in so doing); (c) any professional economic Forum would show me the door as I have no training or qualification whatever in the subject; and (d) the Moderators have been so accommodating to me over these past two years that I may hope that I may be allowed to "push the boundaries" one last time.

(Nevertheless, if they do decide to "blue-pencil" it, I shall accept their judgment without quibble).

The first thing is to settle a measure of Inflation. I rely on two Inflation Tables, one published in the "Sunday Times" * covering the years 1825 - 1982 (compiled by an "E.Barry Bowyer").# and one in the "Saturday Telegraph" * over 1891 - 1990 (compiler unknown). Both Tables are some years old now (exact dates unknown). (* or vice versa).

Note #: There are "Barry E. Bowyers" on Google - none sounded (2013) like an economist. Now they do !

Both allot an arbitary index of 100 to the £ in 1914, and work backward and forward from that year. They agree within quite narrow limits; any differences do not affect the general argument; for the purposes of calculation I've taken the mean of the figures for relevant dates. The first general observation is that WWI and WWII each roughly halved the value of the currency: (100 in 1914, 46.6 in 1918; 64.0 in 1938, 38.1 in 1946 - note the gradual deflation 46.6 to 64.0 between 1918 and 1938).

There are far more interesting figures which emerge, but they will have to wait till next time (if there is a next time).

Goodnight, all.

Danny42C

busylady
9th Dec 2014, 20:44
Danny42C You mentionned Wing Commander Morgan Rice Edmondes (Jim) from India in 1945. He was my grandfather and I read elsewhere that be invented the Edmunds Trainer, which does not surprise me in the slightest as he was always tinkering with something. I think he died in the late 70s.

Danny42C
10th Dec 2014, 00:15
busylady,

I have the most pleasant memories of your grandfather, of the times we worked together at the CDRE in Cannanore in '45, and when I met him again at Bomber Command HQ on my return in '49. I am sorry that he has left us, but then "he's just taken an earlier train", as we said.

My full story of those days is all on this Thread.

Danny42C

Chugalug2
10th Dec 2014, 09:21
Danny, bravo! You take us into unexplored and fascinating territory with your thoughts on the sterling exchange rate post WW2 and the wider inflationary effects of war. I for one am with you all the way, because I think that these are the markers of human history and indeed of war.

There is an excellent book entitled 'The Downwave - Surviving the Second Great Depression' by Robert Beckman (ISBN 0 903852 38 1). Beckman was a broadcaster on LBC, a financial guru, and tipster, who had all the right answers but not necessarily in the right order. A summary here spells it out better than I can:-
The Downwave Revisited | (almost) always thinking (http://almostalwaysthinking.com/2008/09/09/the-downwave-revisited/)

Nonetheless I found his basic theory, that human society is driven alternately by greed and fear, compelling. He has graphs of indicators against timelines telling you where you are in the cycle. Thus there are upwave wars and downwave wars. The first indicated by much flagwaving and martial music at the dockside as the troopships cast off, the second with a growing unease at the inevitably of the coming maelstrom that seemingly cannot be avoided. By contrast the first example always ends in great acrimony about what happened and why, the second merely with an overwhelming sense of relief that it is over. The most obvious examples in recent history being WW's 1 and 2 respectively.

Other indicators are to be found as well, one of the most interesting being women's fashions. In upwaves they become ever more revealing, necklines descend, hemlines rise, and the material becomes ever more diaphanous. In contrast downwaves witness a great covering up with many layers of material. Just think of the early and later Victorian eras.

Returning to inflation as per your post, he has a graph plotting 'The Price of Wheat in England: 1259-1975' ( the book was published in 1983). Calibrated in Shillings per Winchester Quarter (no, I don't know either) it violently lurches like some seismographic readout, starting from less than 3 to ending in excess of 285 over those seven centuries. He helpfully superimposes the various wars in between, starting with the hundred years one (1337-1453) and the War of the Roses (1455-1485), via the Napoleonic Wars (1795-1815), through to WW1, WW2, Korea and Vietnam.

Personally I preferred the price of beer as my personal indicator. Every time I went to Berlin (1973-88) it had risen further. Not in DMs of course, but in the £sd that they cost me.

Fareastdriver
10th Dec 2014, 11:03
The Chinese have got it right. They have had inflation levels of between 5 and 13% over the last two decades. This year a pint and a packet of fags was still the same price as it was in 1994.

Danny42C
10th Dec 2014, 21:14
Chugalug,

I looked up the link you gave me (many thanks !) and found it vastly interesting. I went back to my Inflation Tables and found that the currency steadily rose in value from 63.08 in 1825 to 105.00 in 1852: then fell back slowly to a plateau of 80-90 over 27 years until a sudden jump in 1879 to 102.50; this started a rapid and prolonged rise to a peak in 1903 of 122.50.

Then it declined slowly to the "Index" figure of 100.00 in 1914, followed by a precipitous fall to 40.00 in 1920.

My knowledge of 19th-century social change is not detailed enough to match this behaviour to individual events, but obviously the Industrial Revolution was the major factor in the period, and WW1 was clearly the cause of the catastrophic collapse from '14 to '20.

Beckmans' "Waves" have their mirror image in the behaviour of the currency: his "downs" do seem to reflect periods of appreciation, and vice versa.

The second part of my thesis will appear tomorrow, DV; and re your "Personally I preferrd the price of beer as my personal indicator": it also includes a note about an economist who chose the "Mars Bar" for that purpose (with surprisingly accurate result).

And I have a final coda about the occasional beneficient effect of inflation on the individual (me !)

Cheers, Danny.

EDIT: Of course, Fareastdriver's Chinese system is the best of all: freeze the prices of the essentials (booze 'n baccy) and let all the other commodities take the hit !

OffshoreSLF
11th Dec 2014, 21:31
Chugalug -
'The Price of Wheat in England: 1259-1975' ( the book was published in 1983). Calibrated in Shillings per Winchester Quarter (no, I don't know either)

The Winchester Measure was a system of weights and measures used in the Kingdom of Wessex in Anglo-Saxon times, and was adopted by Henry VII as the English Standard


There were similar unusual measures here in Scotland. My father still got an allowance of oatmeal for his porridge well into the 1970's which was (if my memory is correct), a firlot every 3 months.

Viola
12th Dec 2014, 20:08
Here you are Danny

Exchange rates

The £ these days is a floating currency. Changes in the exchange rate are caused by the interaction of demand for the £ – who wants to buy it - and supply of the £ – who wants to sell it.

The demand for the £ (buying the £) comes from -
-UK goods and services sold (exported) overseas so foreign buyers sell their currency to buy the £ to buy the UK goods
-foreign investment into Britain eg Kraft sold $11.7 to buy £s to buy Cadburys
-speculators buy the £ if they think the value MIGHT rise so they can make a profit
-sometimes the Bank of England will buy £s
If any of these increase, the £ will increase in value (appreciate)

The supply of £s comes from the £ being sold on foreign exchange markets -
-goods and services from abroad are imported (bought by people/firms in the UK)- eg a UK car dealer sells the £ to buy Yen to buy Subarus from Japan. (UK tourists selling the £ to buy $ to go on holiday to the USA counts as an import as the £ is sold.)
-UK investment abroad eg UK firm RPC Group bought Promens in Iceland and would sell about £300m to do so
-speculators SELL the £ if they think the value MIGHT fall - so they can make a profit or avoid a loss
-sometimes the Bank of England will sell £s to buy other currencies for our currency reserves
If any of these increase, the £ will lose value (depreciate)

It is the interaction of the two. When the demand for sterling is high relative to supply, £ increases in value (appreciates). If the market supply exceeds demand for the £ there is a depreciation in the value of the £.

So what is happening? The interaction of ALL these-
-We are importing more than we are exporting so the value of the £ will fall (on balance).
-Our base interest rates is high, 0.5%, relative to the Eurozone, 0.15%, so international investors - wanting to take advantage of our high(!?) interest rate - will sell the Euro and buy the £, so causing its value to rise (on balance).
-If there is poor economic growth over several years currency traders will see economic weakness and so sell the £. If economic growth is generally improving they will buy the £ and the value will increase.
-If our inflation rate is generally higher than other competitor countries, over time our exports would be more expensive than theirs so we would become less competitive internationally. Over time we’d sell fewer exports and buy more imports from these relatively cheaper counties – so the £ would fall in value. Not important at the moment, but was in the past.
-Speculators may decide that the £ is going to increase in value, perhaps because they think the Bank of England will raise interest rates in the near future – if so speculators will buy the £ so increasing its value. If speculators think the £ will fall in value, perhaps because they think our Balance of Payments will get worse, they will sell the £ to buy a currency they think might increase in value. They do this beforehand to ‘gamble’ and to beat everyone else and hopefully make a profit.

The long term decline in the value of the £ since World War 2 has mostly been caused by Britain importing more than it exports over many years. Our higher inflation rate was a problem in the past, but not so much now.

How does it work? A high value of the £, eg $2 to £1 , means our exports are expensive in the USA and makes imports from the USA cheap here – which helps reduce UK inflation. However, it can mean some British exporting manufacturing firms go out of business – as happened in early 80s and in early 90s when the government used a high exchange rate to reduce inflation. It also happened in the early/mid 2000s and made more difficulties for British exporting firms.
A low value of the £, eg $1 to £1 , means our exports are cheap in the USA and makes imports from the USA expensive here – which helps improve the balance of payments (and also increases UK employment). However it only works if we have British based manufacturing firms. But a country can’t keep devaluing – eventually a currency would become too weak to buy necessities.

Fixed rates. When we had a ‘fixed’ value of the £, in the 1950s/60s and when we were in the ERM in the early 1990s, the government used interest rates to keep the value high and in an emergency would use our currency reserves to buy the £. In 1992 Speculators knew the value of £1 to Dm2.95 was too high and ‘gambled’ against the government – the government lost £3bn in a few days!

Businesses, governments and a few individuals trade foreign exchange all the time to finance their activities – plus speculators are speculating! Money moves at a terrific speed around the world’s financial systems – some is done automatically by IT systems. It is very difficult for governments to control it due to the technology and the speed.

Warmtoast
12th Dec 2014, 20:39
OffshoreSLF


Samuel Johnson's Dictionary of the English Language (1755) gives a definition for the word oats: "a grain, which in England is generally given to horses, but in Scotland supports the people."
- sorry couldn't resist it!

Danny42C
12th Dec 2014, 23:04
So here is the following part to my #6550 of 9th inst:

If we take the figures for '38 and '72 (64.0 and 13.2), this represents an inflation "factor"of 4.8. From '72 to '13 it's easy. I simply divide my RAF pension for '13 by that on retirement in '72. This gives me a factor of 11.7. Multiply together, and you get an overall factor of 56.2 * for inflation over the whole period from '38 to today. So what ?

So this: I worked in the Ministry of Labour from '38 to '41, and IIRC, in '38 the average male wage in the UK was 1/4½d (£0.069) per hour. The D.Tel. recently quoted today's figure as £13.27/hr. Of course, today's chap doesn't get that. Assume a 40-hour week and a 50-week year, and a normal Personal Tax Allowance, and he gets only £11.32/hr after taxation - 164.7 times as much as in '38. Divide that by the 56.2, you get 2.93.

That means that the average man is almost three times as well off, in real terms, as was his grandfather seventy years ago (and Grandfather did not live in squalid poverty). There is no way of getting round this. There has probably never been such a rapid increase in personal real income in the recent history of our country, and no reason to expect it to continue.

There is, however, every reason to suppose it may go into reverse. It may well be that the next generation may have to be content with a real income of (say) only twice that of great-grandfather. There are already grumbles about "price increases outstripping wages". Anyway, we'll be well out of it before the roof comes in, so I'll pull-up the gangplank. Best of luck, you youngsters. Here endeth the Lesson of an Economic (Ne)Sciolist. [Lat: "Nescio" = I don't know"]

EDIT:
(Septuagenarians need not chuckle: any meaningful cull of the overblown Welfare Bill must start with taking the axe to Pensions).

(Google):

"The growing size of the welfare state in the UK | Economics Help
www.economicshelp.org/.../the-growing-size-of-the-welfare-state-in-the-uk/?CachedSimilar (http://www.economicshelp.org/.../the-growing-size-of-the-welfare-state-in-the-uk/?CachedSimilar)
7 Feb 2013 ..."

"The welfare state typically includes all benefit payments (pensions, ... state
pensions cost £74bn making state pensions the largest component of social ..."

Over the period '48 to '12, the Benefits increased 472 times (source above);
Inflation increased by a factor of 31.34. (£ values: ['48)] 32.91; ['12] 1.05).
Therefore Benefits increased 15.06 times as fast as Inflation over the period (although we must remember that real wages were also doing so - but at a much lower rate).

The country can't afford it (that and Defence as well !)

All this has been exacerbated by Politicians of all colours seeking a quick fix from the banknote printing presses for electoral gain (and massaging away the National Debt). In medieval times, they called it "Debasing the Currency" and they (quite rightly) hanged you for it. Now it's called "Quantitative Easing", and all the fashion these days. Of course, this is just a fancy name for the policy that destroyed the Weimar republic (leading indirectly to the rise of Hitler), that ruined Mugabe's Zimbabwe in recent years, and which the late President Reagan rightly described as "Voodoo Economics".

Notes:

* Some years ago, an ingenious economist sought a constant store of value over the years, and hit on the humble "Mars Bar". In my youth, this succulent delicacy cost 2d of my pocket money, £1/120 or £0.0083. On my last trip to the local shop, it's on the shelf at 60p. So it costs £0.60 ?... No it doesn't, it costs £0.50 - the rest is VAT. The inflation factor is 60.2 - we're still in the same ballpark.

# You may object that I've ignored National Insurance in the calculation (grandfather only paid something like an insignificant 10d a week). But think of this: his visit to a Doctor then cost him 5/- (3.6 hour's work) - that's £40 now ! (If the Doctor came to him: 7/6 - half as much again) or £60 today). He had to think seriously about calling the Doctor in. That more than offsets the NI his grandson has to pay today.

Goodnight, all.

Danny42C.

EDIT:,

PS: Viola, an excellent dissertation on the "mechanical" factors acting on Inflation, but I am only interested in its social impact..D.

Warmtoast and Union Jack, the Scots are queer cattle (but then, they're only the Irish who couldn't swim when the Romans came !) Ware incoming !...D.

Union Jack
12th Dec 2014, 23:16
Samuel Johnson's Dictionary of the English Language (1755) gives a definition for the word oats: "a grain, which in England is generally given to horses, but in Scotland supports the people."
- sorry couldn't resist it! - Warmtoast

To which, I seem to recall, his biographer James Boswell replied, "Aye, Sir, but where will you find such horses or such men."
- sorry, couldn't resist it!:ok:

Jack

OffshoreSLF
13th Dec 2014, 14:54
UJ
Thanks for that. I was trying, and failing miserably,to recall what the reply was!


I also seem to recall that someone said something like, "I would trust implicitly a man who eats the same food as he feeds to his horse."

Geriaviator
13th Dec 2014, 16:51
In exchange for flying favours my Army friends once kept me in ample supply of oatmeal blocks from their compo ration packs. The tasteless Sassenach regimentals said the blocks were like sawdust but I found them palatable, nutritious, and ideal for long solo trips or the civvy's intensive ops known as glider towing, when a couple of blocks and apples would keep me going all day. (The Tiger Moth does not lend itself to inflight meal service.)

Forty years later, I still look forward to my breakfast porridge, and sympathise with the Tory peer who was excoriated for saying that the needy should eat porridge at 4p a serving. Folk south of the border don't know what they're missing.

Chugalug2
13th Dec 2014, 17:03
OffshoreSLF:-

The Winchester Measure was a system of weights and measures used in the Kingdom of Wessex in Anglo-Saxon times, and was adopted by Henry VII as the English Standard
YLSNED! Thank you. Wiki of course knows all about it and tells us that:-

The Winchester quart is an archaic measure (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_measure),[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quart#cite_note-11) roughly equal to 2 Imperial quarts or 2.25 litres. The 2.5 litre bottles in which laboratory chemicals are supplied are sometimes referred to as Winchester quart bottles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_%28bottle%29), although they contain slightly more than a traditional Winchester quart.So Beckman's graph is calibrated in half imperial gallons. Having said that, wiki rather muddies the water by also saying:-
In 1836, the United States Department of the Treasury (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_the_Treasury) formally adopted the Winchester bushel as the standard for dealing in grain and, defined as 2,150.42 cubic inches, it remains so today.Beckman was American, so it seems his choice of unit was not as arcane (for him at least) as one might have supposed.

Danny:-
With due respect to your ingenious economist, who used the Mars bar as a constant for comparison, I cite wiki again in evidence:-
In the second half of 2008, Mars UK reduced the size of regular bars from 62.5 g to the current 58 g. Although the reduction in size was not publicised at the time, Mars claimed the change was designed to help tackle the obesity crisis in the UK. The company later confirmed that the real reason for the change was triggered by rising costs.... As of 2013, the 'standard' Mars bar has shrunk once again to 51g in weight.I therefore consider my choice of unit, the Imperial Pint (or even the Litre for any Europhiles) of beer as superior in every way. I rest my case M'Lud.

Danny42C
14th Dec 2014, 12:02
Chugalug,

Where do I start ? - you've twanged the strings of memory in so many ways ! I well remember the "Winchester Quart Bottles", but never knew the derivation - until now ! YLSNED ! "Cubic Inches" rings a bell: our American friends, stoutly adhering to Imperial measures when we've basely abandoned them, measure engine (aero and car) capacity in this way. (Hence their expression: "There's no substitute for Cubic Inches" - their equivalent of our: "A good big 'un's always better than a good little 'un".

And I've long suspected that the Mars Bar had slimmed-down a little over the years, but put it down to the rose-tinted hue of our pasts. However, I must say that "designed to tackle the obesity crisis in the UK" would have my vote as the "Barest-Face Lie of the Year".

We all know what causes obesity - eating too much (a fat [living] prisoner never came out of Belsen or Auschwitz, or back from the Burma railway, yet). We all know how to "tackle" it - eat less ! I'm afraid I have no sympathy with the "clinically" obese. Smugly, I assert that I'm the same weight now as I was at 23, never varied much, my BMI today is 21.

Look at the wartime aircrew pictures on this Thread: how many Billy Bunters do you see ?

But back to the Mars Bar, I am out-gunned by m'learned friend's exposition, m' Lud, must recalculate as 60.0x62.5/51.0 = 73.5, which rather knocks the bottom out of m' client's case, m' Lud. Yet: "Man does not live by Mars Bar alone...." but that is irrelevant as we are talking about averages. Therefore I concede, m'Lud (and no, my client will not get his money back).

Cheers, Danny.

Geriaviator
14th Dec 2014, 14:04
As of 2013, the 'standard' Mars bar has shrunk once again to 51g in weight. Could someone provide similar statistics for the 'standard' Mars bar consumer? I see that US airlines require obese passengers to buy two seats. In the UK this is fattism and anyone promoting such a regulation is made to share a row with a svelte 20-stoner. :ooh:

ValMORNA
14th Dec 2014, 20:23
Ignoramus approaching: 'Why are Mars Bars quoted in Grams?' Ounces were good enough, allegedly, for a pop-star and a young lady ISTR.

Xercules
14th Dec 2014, 21:14
Before I left in 1997 I did an Open University MBA to help sell myself in the world outside. Much of the material was (with attribution) taken from the Harvrad Business School whose world standard unit of exchange was the BigMac. This was on the basis that it was an entirely standard product and that no matter where you were if you asked for a BigMac that was exactly what you got. At that time MacD was just moving into Russia and China so it did prove to be a useful comparator in ways that the official exchange rates were not.

Chugalug2
15th Dec 2014, 09:46
Xercules, thank you for contributing the Big Mac to our search for the Holy Grail of economic comparators. It is indeed a renowned one as Wiki (yet again) testifies to:-
Big Mac Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_Index)

There are some interesting lists of countries at the foot of the page (in none of which the UK features) showing in turn;
The Six Most Expensive, based on rate of exchange
The Six most Affordable, based on rate of exchange
The Eleven Fastest Earned
The Eleven Slowest Earned

Perhaps we in the UK should take some solace from not being at any of those extremes, and similarly of being at the lower end of the fat content of Big Macs (for it varied World Wide from 22g to 30.5g when the table was created, the latest date in the article being 2008):-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac

So once again we see that a supposedly constant unit isn't, and of course my standard beer isn't, as it varies in size and content throughout the world. Is this why we lurch from crisis to crisis, from boom to bust? Is there not a single standard item available everywhere that varies only in price? How about the humble HB pencil for instance?

Oh, BTW Danny, your suspicions of the ever shrinking Mars Bar were only too true. Other confectioneries have followed suit. The large tins (which are now plastic) now piled high in Supermarkets and slashed to £4.00 for Quality Street, Celebrations, etc, are it seems not so large, being around 730g. Next time you are in your garage, dig out that old Quality Street tin in which you store those oh so important bits and pieces. Chances are it will be marked in excess of 1Kg!

MPN11
15th Dec 2014, 09:56
Fascinating wiki For example, using figures in July 2008:[5]

the price of a Big Mac was $3.57 in the United States (varies by store)
the price of a Big Mac was £2.29 in the United Kingdom (varies by region)
the implied purchasing power parity was $1.56 to £1, that is $3.57/£2.29 = 1.56
this compares with an actual exchange rate of $2.00 to £1 at the time
(2.00-1.56)/1.56 = 28%
the pound was thus overvalued against the dollar by 28%

And the GBP/USD currently stands at 1.566, which IME seems to be a fairly typical rate over the last few years [odd peaks and troughs excepted)

Danny42C
15th Dec 2014, 19:47
Chugalug,

I like that first table you refer to. Could there possibly be a place which is among both the 11 Fastest Earned and the 6 Most Affordable ? - so that I may harness my Zimmer frame to Santa's reindeer and fly off to this Shangri-la (not forgetting Mrs D. of course)!

I think the can of worms I unloosed should be rounded up and returned to durance vile. Even the Big Mac (Xercules and MPN11) stands or falls by the quality of the beef (or horse as may be) therein: most of the popular packet "curries", lasagnes and cannalonis on the shelves today seem based on browned sawdust.

There is one product (rather a service, really) which is the same everywhere and always, but we are still before the watershed tonight.

It is said that, if you consult 99 economists on a problem, you'll probably get 100 different answers !

Sad thing is: now that these discounted tins of "Quality Street" and the like are all around, I have lost my taste for the stuff ! :(

Danny.

Danny42C
16th Dec 2014, 18:57
I have to admit that there is a silver lining to the inflation cloud - it can hugely benefit a borrower. I am a case in point. When I bought my present house forty years ago, I was persuaded by my trusted insurance broker to go for a 15-year interest-only mortgage backed by an endowment policy for the 59% loan I needed.

15 years later I came out with a bonus which provided me with:

(a) The return of all monies paid by way of premiums and mortgage interest (with MIRAS) over the 15 years;

(b) The benefit of living rent-free in a pleasant house for the 15 years (typical current rents are locally £800/mth);

(c) The house itself freehold (then worth eight times its purchase price), and

(d) A cash sum roughly equivalent to twice (a).

Can't be bad. Of course the inflation factor over the 14 years had been 4.2,
consequently I had borrowed good money and paid back bad - but that's the
way it works. Didn't work in later years, circumstances had changed and cases
are common now where the payout can't even cover the outstanding loan. :*

You can't lose 'em all ! :ok:

Evenin' all.

Danny42C

smujsmith
16th Dec 2014, 19:04
In my dreams Danny:rolleyes: I suspect I have just read a post on "the luck of the Irish"! Long may it continue. Best wishes for the season Sir, and respect for your wisdom in economic matters.

Smudge:ok:

Danny42C
17th Dec 2014, 21:16
Smudge,

And to you, Sir !

Knock off the "wisdom in economic matters" ! We're all carried along like leaves in a torrent - and I fear a waterfall ahead. (around 20 years ago the British Government had to pay 15% for its money !)

My mortgage was at 11% (around 8% after MIRAS).

Could happen again before long.

Danny.

Danny42C
19th Dec 2014, 18:33
When we can force our minds to consider the cost of running our cars, the one great Elephant in the Room (from which we all avert our eyes) is Depreciation. Those whose terms of employment include a car provided by their employers are fortunate indeed. The rest of us poor mortals have to shift as best we may. :*

The first principle is: No one who is paying for his car out of taxed income can regularly afford a new one (unless he be a Premier League Footballer, or paid on a similar astronomical scale). The rest (which includes impecunious junior RAF officers) have to adopt one of two policies.

Either buy a new one and run it till it falls apart, scrap it and write-off the whole purchase cost over the period, buy another new one and do the same again. I tried this, bought a new Peugeot in Paris for £550 in '60, while serving in RAF(G), got rid of it in '73 for £50, Depreciation over 13 years: £38/annum, (and it didn't cost much by way of repairs).

This was replaced by a new Renault for £1500, went for scrap after 11 years, after enough trouble to last a lifetime. :E Depreciation £136/annum (and as the inflation factor over the period was 3.1, not too far out of line).

Then I went into the 2/h market. First I took over (and paid the balance of her repayments on !) daughter's 5yr old Renault 5 TL (bought by her a year before for £1200 2/h). A nice little car, perhaps the best of the superminis of the time, I unloaded it in March '86 for £750. Between us we had had the car about three years. I suppose the overall cost of the car (down payments plus instalments) would be around £1600, so the depreciation was £850 approx: or £240/annum. Not too bad.

In March'86, the £750 went towards a 6yr old Renault 18 Estate at £1300. After 7 yrs and 80,000 miles with little trouble, replacement cost against a 6yr old Montego VDP was £1800; depreciation £260/annum. :)

The Montego only ran 31000 miles in its 6 years with us as I had retired a second time, and for good now. One day my wife "gave it wellie" on a motorway to get past something, there was a hell of a bang. :eek: "What the :mad: are you doing ?" I demanded (none too gently). Relations were a trifle strained until after the next pit stop. I was driving and the same happened to me (wife gloated). The kick-down had gone on the blink. Autobox repair would cost more than the car was worth: get rid of it !

That was followed in October '99 by a 7 yr old Rover 216 (the Honda-engined one), replacement cost £2500, or £420/annum depreciation on the Montego. The Rover was a good car, but the rot had set in. After 48000 miles in 9 years, that had to go for scrap in September '08, depreciation £280/annum.

I would suggest that this is as low as you can hope to get and still have fairly reliable motoring. In summary, this was my plan: buy a decent 6 yr old in the £2-3000 range, run it for another 6 years, get rid while it is still a runner with a MOT and buy another six year old. The plan absolutely depends on having a local trustworthy skilled independent motor mechanic on whom you can absolutely rely (and we have such a treasure: Mark has been with us now for at least 30 years and is a family friend) and have him go over your intended purchase with a fine tooth-comb (in addition to AA/RAC and all the other normal checks).

Merry Christmas to you all, :ok:

Danny.

MPN11
19th Dec 2014, 19:13
Danny42C ... a very Happy Christmas to yo too, Sir, and a contented 2015. Glad you're still kicking and posting [albeit on cars!].

Ahhh ... depreciation!! You either ignore it, suck it up or regret it!

I won't bore with my list [all on file] of the last 50 years of car-buying, but a tragic tale may amuse.

I went to replace my Mazda 626, from my local dealer, in 1988. Nice car, in excellent condition, being only some 24 months old with 13,000 on the clock. Like for like negotiations began ... I had paid £9750 2 years earlier. Well, a lot less after trading in the previous one, I got £6750 for that, so £3,000 for a new car. Nice!

But the offer I received in 1990 for another new 626 was cr@p. A bit of murmuring in the local paper, and I ended up [in Oct 90] getting £6,950 for the 2-yo Mazda, and drove away in a 3-yo Jaguar XJ6 3.6L for an extra £8,000. Which 18 months later [Mar 92] I exchanged for a 2-yo 4.0L one, costing me an extra £10,500. And then in Feb 94 I did it again, this time for a 1-yo ex-manager's XK6 4.0L, costing me another £10k. :eek:
What was that over 6 years? I can't bear to add it up! :mad:

In retrospect, it was completely crazy ... but we were both high earners, no kids, no mortgage and no time to go on holiday, even if we could both get leave at the same time! Loved the Jags, though!

I won't start the discussion about how I ended up with a Peugeot iOn all-electric :)

smujsmith
20th Dec 2014, 22:21
As we approach the festive season can I proffer my sincere wishes for a great Christmas and New Year to all who post, and follow, this most venerable thread. Of course, as in all good crew rooms, we should expect some Christmas treats from our senior members, who I suspect may have a few stories to tell. Meanwhile, I offer a rendering from my past by Patricia Rielly, a talented artist indeed.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/67c75842834bd426b365ecd419953652_zps79ea1e0a.jpg
Seasons Greetings to all.

Smudge:ok:

dogle
21st Dec 2014, 13:41
Danny is so right, and the impecunious young officer of today would do well to note his words of wisdom (likewise perhaps the not-so-young!).

(Of course in the immediate aftermath of the war, most car production was exported to help relieve the Nation's bankruptcy and domestic sales were, in effect, carefully 'rationed' - indeed even such things as sugar and sweets were strictly rationed until the early 50's - so unless you could convince the Ministry you had 'essential need' of a new car, forget it, you had to make do with what you could get in a limited pool of well-worn stuff. A working car of any age was something to be prized - the infliction of the MoT was far in the future).

Years ago I did some serious study of car price depreciation, hoping to contain my motoring costs in leaner years ahead (and, by a minor miracle, I have today been able to find my results). I was quite surprised to see a remarkable consistency in the depreciation curves over a wide range of some 10 makes and models over some 7 years. Apart from just a very few obvious singularities - sudden, sharp price drops which I tentatively assumed to result from a manufacturer's launch of a brand new model range - they all followed pretty regular exponential decay patterns with a half-life of around 3.3 years.

The curves of course ultimately flatten into a 'banger zone' where price becomes MoT-dependent, and I should stress that this was about price of used cars only - the eye-watering first-year depreciation of a new car is legendary.

Like Danny, I concluded that if one could choose, with particular care, a steed approaching the shallower end of the curve - an independent advisor like Danny's Mark is surely a jewel - a good old 'un would actually save quite serious money. For me, it certainly has, because since buying one at a "disposable" price - which then went on to serve me well for more than ten years! - I have not been afraid to go even further down the depreciation curves than Danny's suggested 8 years (but with sharp eyes!).

Of course if your CO, not coming from that generation for whom just ANY car was a precious thing, considers it important to have the latest model in her driveway, you are stumped ....

Here is a little Christmas present, c/o HMG, for the bold reader keen to apply Danny's good 'gen:
https://www.gov.uk/check-mot-history-vehicle

DHfan
21st Dec 2014, 14:48
The banger end of the market served me well for many years. Buy a car for a few tens of pounds, run it until it either disintegrates or the cost to fix it is more than the car's worth.

That's probably only practical if you can fix it yourself which fortunately I could.

Using that policy through the 70's amongst a couple of others I had a hotted up Herald coupe, a couple of Vauxhall Crestas and a 3.4 Mk2 Jaguar and all lasted more than just one year. The Jag was by far the most expensive at £50!

Geriaviator
21st Dec 2014, 15:05
In 1945 £50 would buy an immaculate Tiger Moth, nice little runner, one careful owner, finished two-tone earth brown/pasture green with attractive yellow underside, suit beginner.

In 1965 it could be bought in France for around £350, admittedly needing much work but often with good engine hours. It took me some eight months part-time to rebuild one such veteran, which I sold for £3000 in 1974.

Several Tiger Moths are now on offer at prices up to £57,000. All you need is 400 yds of grass at each end of your journey. Indeed Tesco car parks will do fine, Tiger Moths don't do crosswinds on tarmac but the way Tesco sales are going they'll be glad to turf them for you, and the 50lb rear locker weight limit will help keep off aviator's avoirdupois.

So there you are, young pPruners. Beat depreciation with a Tiger Moth, your flying pension fund :D

harrym
21st Dec 2014, 17:34
In November '45 emphasis on the Rangoon-Bangkok-Saigon run lessened, with flights up to Calcutta and beyond. One such was to Vizagapatam, a not unpleasant town on the coast south west of Calcutta but for what purpose was a mystery; supposedly sent there to collect some radio equipment, the locals denied all knowledge of any such and so we returned empty; a c—k up of the sort not unknown at the time, when by today's standards communications were much less positive and reliable. Any one of several airfields in the Calcutta area might be used but mostly our destination was Dum Dum, presumably birth place of that eponymous (and infamous) bullet but to us more feared for the dreaded kitehawks that circled endlessly in its airspace. Collisions were not unknown and are probably still a hazard (did not a BOAC/BA VC10 suffer a double engine failure through such an eventuality?), and passing through there thirty years later I noticed them still much in evidence – indeed the whole place looked very much the same, many of the buildings instantly recognisable and I half expected to see a few battered Daks on the apron.

December took us in another direction with several flights to Butterworth (on the mainland opposite Penang), several of which extended to Singapore. At that time Kallang was (and remained for some time) the colony's main airport, conveniently situated on the sea front just outside the city but incapable of expansion. A few abandoned Jap aircraft were scattered around close by, most of which had been fairly well stripped but from one of which (as I recall, a single-engine float plane that had somehow become beached) I 'liberated' a compass of a rather unique design that I have seen nowhere else; hopefully a picture or two will shortly be posted up, but for now text must suffice.

Externally of conventional bowl shape, the pivoted magnet assembly carries four luminous-painted needles numbered successively 0, 1, 2, 3, with a 60 degree angle between needles 3 & 0 and 100 degrees between 0 &1, 1 & 2, 2 & 3 while a fixed scale on the inside of the bowl is marked from 0 to 100. So to fly a heading of, say, 215 degrees the pilot would turn until the no. 2 needle was against 15 on the fixed scale; to the conventional mind a weird way of doing things, but making flight on a reciprocal totally impossible - something only too easy to do with the earlier type of RAF standard compass, until they were re-designed with a T-shape pointer.

Nevertheless I think the Japs were being somewhat over-clever, for I fancy such an instrument would have been very tiring to use over a long period – that no-one else (to my knowledge, anyway) used a similar design probably says it all. It remains to say that it was obviously intended to be used with a mirror as all the digits are in fact reversed, also that one item is not present – no alcohol in the bowl, indeed the filler screw is missing so someone had got to it before me! But that aside it works perfectly, pivoting with complete freedom and the lamp unit still contains a working bulb; however with no liquid in the bowl to spread and diffuse its light the effect is rather of the Toc H lamp variety – somewhat dim (no disrespect intended towards that venerable institution).

One of the Butterworth trips involved a brief shuttle across the Malacca straits to Medan in northern Sumatra, during which occurred (due entirely to my own stupidity and over-confidence) one of those “I learned about flying from that” moments that terrified both myself and my unfortunate crew. The runway was unusually short, barely 3000ft as I recall and thus calling for a properly flown short field technique, but readers of earlier instalments may remember that I had become fixated on a totally incorrect method of achieving this aim. So, having touched down just after the runway's threshold, I was smugly congratulating myself on having achieved the desired object when I suddenly became aware that something was not quite right – for instead of a rumble of wheels there was instead an ominous silence, while the ground actually seeming to be rapidly receding. Just in time instinct kicked in, and by dint of slamming the throttles hard against the stops a disaster entirely of my own making was narrowly avoided, the faithful Pratt & Whitneys responding flawlessly as the nose began to dip so that we survived to go around for another, more conventional arrival.

There were, and still are, no excuses for such an abysmal display of incompetence, but it should be said that at that time there was no system in place for regular aircrew competency checks – period. Apart from a brief check ride following arrival on a squadron plus (at first) a few supervised route flights, that was it and one was free to perpetuate any bad habits picked up along the way into the foreseeable future; so, I subsequently took care afterwards not to hurry the tailwheel onto the deck after landing, but otherwise my no doubt numerous errors went uncorrected – until later in life, but no part of this story. It is perhaps pertinent to point out that, for various reasons, the RAF's transport accident rate was at this time not good, a situation rectified shortly afterwards by Sir Ralph Cochrane's introduction of the Transport Command scheme of proper training and assessment that later resulted in an incomparable safety record.

It was about this time that the so-called strikes occurred; memory is hazy as to exactly when or where, but certainly my squadron was involved, a factor that perhaps had a bearing on its disbandment in early '46. Active discontent involved only the airmen ranks, and not in all trades; reasons were various, but a combination of dissatisfaction with the demob rate, general deterioration in living conditions and increasingly tardy delivery of UK mail were foremost. The remarkable speed with which they spread and the wide geographic coverage pointed to the signals branch being implicated, especially through the teleprinter network.

My penultimate flight on 194 Sqdn at the beginning of February was to Kengtung, a short, lonely strip far up into that remote corner of Burma where it comes close to the borders of Thailand, Laos and China; indeed, the few locals seen looked more Chinese than anything else, as did a fortified village gateway that would have been at home on the Great Wall. Not long afterwards my crew and I found ourselves posted to 96 Sqdn at Hmawbi, an isolated airfield about thirty miles north of Mingaladon – which makes this a good spot to sign off for now, and to wish all who follow this worthy thread a very good Christmas and Happy New Year!

Union Jack
21st Dec 2014, 18:58
The banger end of the market served me well for many years. - DHFan

Commonly known as "bangernomics"!:ok:

Jack

Chugalug2
21st Dec 2014, 21:06
Smudge:-
Of course, as in all good crew rooms, we should expect some Christmas treats from our senior members, who I suspect may have a few stories to tell.No sooner said than done, for dead on cue harrym transports (see what I did there?) us back to those immediate post war days of the Far East. Your story re your Short Field Technique that wasn't so short must ring bells with all of us that had to have the wrinkles ironed out, Harry. Once again we learn that what we Johnny Come Latelies took for granted, a honed and refined Pilot Assessment and Categorisation Scheme, didn't just happen but emerged from bitter experience. Sometimes you are told this at the time, more often you learn it decades later from a 'by the way' throw away comment or indeed from posts on PPRuNe!

Your Imperial Japanese Compass sounds complicated and demanding, much like the language itself. I once read a theory somewhere that the Japanese are so well educated and capable because their language is so demanding, as reading and writing it requires such concentration that the brain is honed for any other challenge it is put to. Right or wrong, it might have been that same theory that devised this instrument of navigational torture. Must have worked though, they certainly found the Repulse and Prince of Wales without much trouble!

Thanks for your post Harry. Lots more to come I hope. Thanks for your Christmas wishes which I offer in turn to all that inhabit this, the best of all PPRune threads!

Merry Christmas everyone and a Happy New Year!

Danny42C
22nd Dec 2014, 07:28
MPN11,

A spending spree indeed, Sir ! Still: "you can't take it with you, so....."

Peugeot - you couldn't make a better choice,! But please tell us all about electric ones....D.

Smudge,

A lovely, seasonable picture which should appeal to all our Herky-Bird drivers !....D.

dogle,

Having had the thankless task of scrutinising the Annual Accounts of many small businesses during my 13-year post-RAF service in HMC&E as a VATman, I noted that many accountants wrote down the value of car by 25% pa. This would mesh nicely with your "half-life of 3.3 years" as a 25% pa depreciation would reduce a £10,000 car to £5625 after two whole years' depreciation. A further 4 months would reduce that by a further £464 - we're very nearly there.....D.

DHfan and Union Jack,

My plan depended on a reasonable outlay. "Parker's Guide" was good (but only up to six years old, after which a car has little or no commercial value). But I developed my own system. Take the on-the-road price when new, adjust it for inflation (which was raging for most of my time) and divide by the car's age, and you should be about right....D.

Geriaviator,

I still dream about '46-'47, when you could (reputedly) buy flyable Spitfires (without civil registration, of course), for about £75 apiece. Now supposing I'd invested my demob gratuity in half a dozen of those, hired low-loaders and stored them in some old barn for 65 years, then with the going rate (£1,500,000 per Spitfire, I read), even with insurance and the storage charges (and caravan storage is the finest crop of all for farmers hereabouts), there should be enough left for us to live the life to which we would have liked to have become accustomed.

TMs ? Well, if you could get one of those cissy RCAF ones with canopies (and I wouldn't be surprised if they had a heater, too), I'm with you. Otherwise, you risk death by hypothermia in this latitude except during our "summers" (two fine days and a thunderstorm)......D.

harrym,

Another feast of Far East recollections in the chaotic months after the war's totally unexpected end ! I shall enjoy this one over Christmas and will add anything relevant which springs to mind. A sombre note: we haven't heard from Ormeside28 for a month or so......D.

Chugalug,

Couldn't have said it better myself, Sir ! Your comment on the Japanese language rings a bell: it is essentially the argument put forward for the retention of Latin teaching in schools. For Latin sentences have to be carefully constructed step by step, following intricate rules (so developing the logical mind which will be of immense value in learning other subjects).

Once again, and for the third successive year, :ok: may I wish all PPRuNers (particularly the followers of "our" Thread) a Merry Christmas and a Happy and Prosperous New Year. (And "Absent Friends", too).....D.

'Night, all,

Danny.

Geriaviator
22nd Dec 2014, 11:02
I share Chugalug's thoughts on the Japanese language, for one of the surgeons who performed such an excellent overhaul upon me was Japanese. (Needless to say his English was perfect). Less than four months after he closed up my nose cowling, the join has faded to a thin line with not a stitch in sight, for they are all internal -- the surgical equivalent of flush riveting I suppose. On my discharge I thanked him for his neat closure, not to mention the wonderful plumbing work within, and he said goodbye with a deep formal obeisance.

Thanking him in Japanese was the least I could do, but I soon realised how difficult it was for one who has little difficulty with French or Italian. Where German tacks words together, Japanese seems to conjoin entire phrases. There are formal and informal thanks, thanks for a service or deed performed in the present, another for deeds in the past, and one can also throw in words to apologise to the thankee for troubling him. Arigato means Thanks! Domo arigato a more formal Thank You. Adding Gozaimas constructs the formal thanks in the present, Gozaima****a for something in the past. At least, that's my understanding of it.

Six weeks later we met again for surgical review, and Masa-san seemed pleased when his happy patient climbed seven flights of stairs to pronounce Domo arigato gozaima****a and make my bow of thanks.

May I return your good wishes, our dear virtual crewmate Danny, and may we all be around to share them again in another 12 months.

Ormeside28
22nd Dec 2014, 11:18
Thank you Danny. I am still with you. I thought my story was getting a bit BS. However if you want to hear about life on 120 at Aldergrove in 56/58 and 205 at Changi 58/61 then I am happy to oblige. Happy Christmas from Wales.

Fionn101
22nd Dec 2014, 14:31
@Blind Pew.

you wrote :I penned an autobiography 5? years ago...went through the self publishing route and then discovered that I would have to chop rather a lot because of the libel act...

Are you Baron de T*******n by any chance ? if so can I congratulate you on the best title for a book EVER, in my humble opinion.

I saw your book in a clothes shop in Skerries,(Dublin) while on a coastal walk and vowed to return and purchase.

I really enjoyed the story of your father and his friend cutting razor thin ham slices for the in flight catering , and subsequent short cut under the aeroplane wing:-)

But what really stayed with me as I read your book (finished it in Thailand this April) was that you never gave in , never joined the 'clique and wink society 'and stayed true. Really an inspiration for me, so thank you for sticking to your principles.

A Great Read, Cheers,
Fionn

RFCC
22nd Dec 2014, 16:47
Hi All,

Can I suggest that you visit the thread "Information sought on RAF POWs (http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/553189-information-sought-raf-pows.html)" in this forum.

It contains a fascinating account of an Air Gunner's training and his subsequent time as a P.O.W. The links take you to scans of a diary written in various POW camps.

Too good to miss :ok:

harrym
22nd Dec 2014, 17:33
Chugalug, Danny & others interested: despite advice previously received, still unable to post up images of afore-mentioned Japanese compass. If you like I will email to you direct if you could let me have your address(es) via email to Prune.

Apologies for incompetence!

harrym (will be away for Xmas, so possible delay)

Warmtoast
22nd Dec 2014, 23:11
With Christmas day almost here, here are a couple of photos from my album of the way we used to celebrate it 63-years ago way back in 1951 at 5 FTS, RAF Thornhill, S. Rhodesia.

Father Christmas arrives by Anson from the North Pole besieged by kids expecting presents.
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/Thornhill-Xmas3_zps45b80b59.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/Thornhill-Xmas1_zps6780545b.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/Thornhill-Xmas4_zps89f533b9.jpg


In the airmen's mess waiting for the officers to serve Christmas lunch.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/Thornhill-Xmas5_zpsaa4fa96a.jpg


Sgt's mess dress up for a friendly football match vs. the officers.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/Thornhill-Xmas2_zps0080fcf2.jpg

DFCP
23rd Dec 2014, 00:41
Harry could you shed more light on the short field landing technique referrenced in Post 6580--what error did you make make that resulted in you becoming airborne again after touching down.? If you have covered the Dakota short field landing in an earlier post could you advise the Post number .
Many thanks for your most interesting descriptions of your career.
Best wishes for Christmas and the New Year.
dfcp

Danny42C
23rd Dec 2014, 02:19
harrym,

Like DFCP, I could not work out what you'd done wrong, but kept quiet on the basis that: "it's much better to keep your mouth shut and have people think you're a fool, than open it and prove it ". :(

3,000 ft ? That was about the norm for the kutcha strips we had out there (IIRC), but if you went off the far end you were usually on an ex-paddy field complete with 12-18 in bunds round the side, so as long as your wheels and oleo legs could put up with that, you'd get shaken up a bit and a few rivets might drop out, but you should be all right after about three fields or so. :*

Thank you for your kind offer to send me "further and better particulars" of the Japanese Compass :confused:, but no thank you, Harry ! From what you've already given by way of description, I just don't want to know any more ! :eek:

I don't think it was instrumental in the finding of Prince of Wales and Repulse. As I remember the story, a Jap reconnaissance aircraft flown by a Midshipman, in the very last minute before having to turn and go home, stumbled on the ships (who were maintaining radio silence), his signaller tapped out the Good News - and the rest you know.

Instead of yelling for fighter cover (only Brewster "Buffaloes" - but then you don't have to shoot down a torpedo bomber: it is sufficient to harry him [no pun intended] so as to "put him off his stroke"), Admiral Philips maintained silence, even though they knew they had been spotted and that air attack must follow.

It was the Admiral's declared belief that: "a properly handled capital ship can always beat off air attack" (and, to be fair to him, I don't think one had been sunk at sea up to then, apart from a tethered, sacrificial goat sunk by Billy Mitchell (?) in the early twenties). But there's always a First Time. :ooh:

I am too lazy to check any of my "factoids" above, so you can have a field day with them, chaps (and I'm sure Union Jack will enter the Lists on behalf of the True Blue).

Once again, Merry Christmas, all (and welcome back, Ormeside - we were starting to worry.....out with your stories - it's later than we 90-plusses :ok: think !)

Time for bed.

Danny.

blind pew
23rd Dec 2014, 07:20
Fion101
Glad you enjoyed it...next time you are in Skerries call in...have quite a few more stories that I can't publish..
The Title originates from a colleague who although from a posh background would be the last one to trust especially in an airliner.
I help shift his yacht across the Bay of Biscay one November..I did the night watch as I wouldn't trust him to stay awake (he had already slept FLYING across the Bay whilst driving a Vanguard full of pax)....The following evening before my watch we hit a dense fog bank as we approached the Channel shipping lanes..I was woken by our fog horn to discover that we were carrying every navigation light. I took over and turned everything off...the visibility was about 10 yards and the commercial traffic we were trying to dodge wouldn't be able to see anything closer than 1km due to the cut off angles of the superstructure.
Unless we were spotted on radar our only chance ...a slim one at that ...was to protect our night vision and sit in the cockpit wearing life jackets.
rgds Alan

harrym
23rd Dec 2014, 14:56
DFCP & Danny - if you look back at my #6450 on P323 you will find a fairly full exposition of the technique that landed me in trouble on the occasion described. It developed into near-disaster due excessive airspeed combined with my haste to get the tail down (so as to be able to brake hard without risk of standing the bird on its nose) resulting in us becoming airborne again - what is called 'ballooning', I believe.

My memory may indeed be at fault, but I do not recall that I had then received much if any instruction in the correct tactical landing technique; and, knowing that a loaded Dak (indeed, possibly overloaded) had to be carefully handled if a bad arrival was to be avoided (see #6450 again), I don't think I was the only one to be wary of its handling at low speed (yes, no excuse I Know!).

Taildraggers will always use 'wheelies' when circumstances demand, but this was certainly not one of them. It is interesting to note however, that this method is almost invariably used today when large vintage warbirds are displayed, even on runways of more than adequate length.

Re the compass pics, Fareastdriver has kindly offered to post them up for me so they should appear soon - sorry, Danny!

Fareastdriver
24th Dec 2014, 14:20
And here they are. I cannot make head or tail out of it. Maybe somebody else has an idea.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/Japanesecompass_zps0c84ff32.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fareastdriver/media/Japanesecompass_zps0c84ff32.jpg.html)

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/unnamed_zps7ceb09c6.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fareastdriver/media/unnamed_zps7ceb09c6.jpg.html)

I suppose it is possible that it is a bombing computer.

Edited to add. harrym sent me some tech info in another email. I present it now

Diameter is 12 cm, height slightly less and I imagine the small calibrations at the base are for setting deviation – the brass ring is attached to the bowl, as is the inner 0-100 degree scale inside, so twisting it rotates the bowl assembly against the small scale. The square base (visible in second pic on the other email) is a necessary home addition as otherwise the compass is awkward to stand upright, given a narrow spigot underneath projecting downwards that obviously slotted into a hole on top of the instrument panel coaming. The whole thing is remarkably heavy, but what sort of alloy it’s made of I don’t know.

MPN11
24th Dec 2014, 14:31
Homing device? BABS?

Fareastdriver
24th Dec 2014, 16:12
The connector on the box on the side looks like an olive type connection. This would suggest that it is some form of air feed. The box also appears to be able to slide within the case, or vis versa, which would match up with the 30-----30 scale on the upper case.

Could be an airspeed or altitude signal.

harrym
24th Dec 2014, 17:24
The compass would have been viewed via an angled mirror positioned above it, hence the reversed digits. A similar method was used in the Hastings, except that in this case the compass was inverted in the V of the windscreen frame and the mirror positioned below, capable of being swivelled so as to be visible to either pilot.

Fareastdriver (to whom a big thank you is owed for posting the pix up), I presume by 'connector' you refer to the threaded brass piece projecting from the small black box on the side. This was where the electrical connection for the lamp was made, and indeed its festoon-type bulb still works, glowing brightly when a 12 volt current is applied.

As for being used as an aid for any other purpose, to me it seems basically a bog-standard compass in principle, if of an unusual and rather weird design. Observe however, that it would be quite impossible to use it to fly a reciprocal heading in error - something easy to do with the earlier type of RAF compass, before the T shaped pointer was introduced.

smujsmith
24th Dec 2014, 17:26
Naughty boy JENKINS,

Delorean was not invented in WW2, or are you suggesting it's going back in time ? :rolleyes:

Smudge:ok:

MPN11
24th Dec 2014, 17:39
harrym ... that was my immediate thought re BABS or similar. An 'Homing Device' of some persuasion, incapable of confusing even the most inept aviator.

But the 1-2-3 segments are interesting. Is that 'fine tuning' for accuracy nearer base?

Danny42C
24th Dec 2014, 18:51
Ormeside (Your #6585),

Very happy to have you back ! (Now Horatius has a man on each side again - the Bridge is still kept - even the ranks of Tuscany scarce forbore to cheer).

Yes, we do want to hear about your escapades with 120 in furrin' parts ! Be happy and oblige, please (there aren't so many WWII people around that we can afford to lose any of our stories) After Christmas will do nicely.
Meanwhile, all the Compliments of the Season,

Danny.

Ormeside28
24th Dec 2014, 19:08
Thank you Danny. am returning to Wild Wales after New Year. I hope that you will enjoy Christmas and 2015, and will try to send 120 and 205 stories.

Danny42C
24th Dec 2014, 19:36
Fareastdriver, MPN11, JENKINS, harrym, and smudjsmith,

OMG. :confused:

Danny.

mikehallam
24th Dec 2014, 20:01
I must be simple, but cannot see anything difficult about that that 'Japanese' compass:

Seems a nice & simple wheeze to read off degrees in 100's and just add on up to 100 more off the detailed scale, which gives one's heading.

Makes the usual but unwieldy lumps of 90's into a a familiar transcription - assuming Japanese schools used arabic numerals and denary maths.

Happy Christmas,

mike hallam (West Sussex)

- BTW got the 80 hp Rans S6-116 airborne off the soft grass here today to successfully trial my kid's present to me, a pair of low pressure 'Tundra' tyres, fitted last w/end

Danny42C
24th Dec 2014, 22:53
harrym,

My only connection with the Dakota was as a grateful passenger (after landing that is; it is notorious that pilots make very nervous pax indeed in the landing phase. Bereft of their parachutes, their noses pressed to the perspex and uttering (none too quietly) anguished cries such as "NOW what's he doing ?" and "FOOL - he'll kill us all !", they generally caused Alarm and Despondency in the cabin.

All the Daks I ever watched landing seem to use the same technique: bring it in low and slow with full flap and a fair amount of power on, wheel it, power off and let the tail drop of its own accord. Having said that, all my trips would be on the "East Mail" (Dum Dum, Chittagong and all points East) or the "West Mail" (Dum Dum - Allahabad - Delhi). It was an airline operation in all but name, all runways long, paved and smooth.

I can imagine how you, on your temporary kutcha strips, which were none of the above, might well come unstuck and go into kangaroo mode if you'd brought it in that way. Short of stalling it in like a Tiger Moth "daisy-cutter", I would suppose that your best bet would be to stuff the nose hard down to "wheelbarrow" it until it could no longer fly. Then it would be a nice balance on the brakes between nuzzling the strip or going off the far end into the bundoo.

Sooner you than me ! My VVs much preferred the ground to the air, only flew reluctantly and were all too happy to stay down when they got back. I have only a few hours on the Meteor, but was told it was unique in that it would break before it would bounce. Didn't try it and don't know if it's true.

I think our Daks were "plated" at 5500 lb max payload. Wiki gives the gross weight as 25,199 lb (DC-3 - which I think is the same thing). I seem to remember someone on this Thread saying that we operated them at 31,000 lb AUW, which (if true) would be an enormous overload. But I can't find the quotation now.

And I'll be interested to see the Japanese Compass. I suppose that, if they liked using it, that's all that mattered. "De gustibus......!"

All the best for Christmas. Enjoy your trip and come back safe,

Danny.

Ian Burgess-Barber
25th Dec 2014, 14:18
Seasons Greetings to all the esteemed contributors (and also to the silent majority who follow all that is revealed) on this - the doyen of threads.

Danny, your last:

I think our Daks were "plated" at 5500 lb max payload. Wiki gives the gross weight as 25,199 lb (DC-3 - which I think is the same thing). I seem to remember someone on this Thread saying that we operated them at 31,000 lb AUW, which (if true) would be an enormous overload. But I can't find the quotation now.

One of my great Pilot/Writer heroes is the late, great, Captain Len Morgan who many readers will remember for his "Famous Aircraft Series". In his Douglas DC-3 Book Len tells us that when he flew the C-47 in wartime it was a case of:
"If it would fit through a C-47's cargo doors and didn't bring the gross weight to more than 27,500 pounds, we hauled it. If it ran the weight up an extra 500 or 1000 or so pounds, we falsified the load sheets and went anyway".
Post-war when he was flying the DC-3 for Brannif he was to find that the gross load was limited to 25,200 pounds which he says was "hardly half a load".

I have before me a reprint of the WW2 Army Air Force (Foreword by General H.A.P. Arnold) 'Pilot Training Manual for the C-47' (95 pages). On page 11 (Weights) I read the following:
Empty
C-47......17,087 lbs
C-47A....17,257 lbs
Recommended takeoff, maximum gross
29,300 lbs
Restricted takeoff, maximum gross
31,000 lbs
Recommended landing, maximum gross
26,000 lbs
So the USAAF would let you land one at a higher weight than the Airlines would let you takeoff with!
Truly one of the greatest flying machines ever made.

Mother reminds me that my first airline trip (aged 3) was by Aer Lingus Dakota (C-47) from Ringway (Manchester) to the Isle of Man, and thus I was hooked for life!
Now, lovely aromas are floating my way from the kitchen, so Gents. (and Ladies, of course) I raise my glass to you - Peace and goodwill to all.

Ian B-B

Taphappy
25th Dec 2014, 19:21
A very Merry Christmas and a Happy and Prosperous New Year to all contributers and readers of this most wonderful of threads.
Lang may yer lum reek even in these days of central heating.

Danny42C
25th Dec 2014, 21:14
Ian Burgess-Barber,

All my life I've thought that "Hap" was just a nickname ! (he created the "Arnold Scheme"; this took some 7,000 RAF LACS for pilot training in the States: we got about 4,000 pilots back. I was one of them('41/'42).

YLSNED ! All the best for the New Year,

Danny.

Ian Burgess-Barber
26th Dec 2014, 08:15
Danny,
apologies - you are right - Hap, short for happy was his nickname, his name was Henry Harly Arnold, although as I look at his signature on the foreword of the training manual, it does look as if he signed it as 'HAP'. The festive pre-prandial refreshments yesterday may have a bearing on my error M'lud!

Ian B-B

Danny42C
26th Dec 2014, 19:06
Warmtoast (your #6589),

Fine pictures of a faraway Christmas in Rhodesia 63 years ago ! I particularly liked the little girl (far right on #2) on Daddy's shoulders, hanging on to his cap. It's sobering to think that she's a pensioner now.

And your #4 reminds me of that very same duty which I performed in Worli (Bombay) 72 years ago. I put in a Post about it on this Thread, which many of my older readers will remember (do you ?). It was the story about how I had to fight off the Sh***hawks from the dinners I was carrying. Now I can't find it. Some searching led me to my Post #4903 Page 246. Seems I couldn't find it last December either.

What has happened to it ? PPRuNe Pop, can you help to unravel the mystery ? It must have been on or close to Page 127. If we can't recover it, I'll Post it again from memory.

Happy New Year to all,

Danny.

Danny42C
26th Dec 2014, 19:17
Ian B-B,

No need to apologise, it's nothing to do with the Christmas fare. Comes to us all in time !

All the best for the New Year !

Danny.

harrym
27th Dec 2014, 17:40
Much obliged Ian B-B for the data re Dak operating weight limits - good to have proof that my memory was not at fault, and there is no question in my mind that 31,000 lb was used as the 'normal' AUW limit by the RAF at that time, in the SE Asia theatre at any rate.

As I have mentioned before, our usual practice of departing base with full tanks often resulted in the aircraft being much heavier than it need have been. It made life simple - no pre-planning of fuel load required, while at the more outlying airfields supplies of 100 octane could be limited or non-existent, but it certainly resulted in our aircraft often being much heavier than they need have been. The 2000 yard runways at Akyab or Mingaladon did sometimes seem barely adequate for takeoff, and of course we were well aware that EFTO would have only one result!

Danny - yes, the 'wheelie' was certainly the preferred method of putting a Dak back on the ground; not very professional perhaps, but it made life easier on most occasions. But of course there were exceptions, as previously described!

Your reference to poor surfaces minds me to ask - you must have encountered the dreaded bithess (bitumised hessian) often used to make a temporary surface for roads or aircraft parking areas? Never runways to my knowledge, just as well as once water got beneath the stuff it was like moving on a giant water bed!

Danny42C
28th Dec 2014, 01:18
harrym,

Don't remember bitumenised hessian in my day; if we'd had any it would be more useful for basha roofs (palm leaf thatch could harbour all sorts of insects of huge size and horrendous aspect which dropped on you from time to time). PSP was bad enough for Aircraft Movement Areas.

Somewhere have told the story of tarred sand := being used by a local contractor at Cochin (Willingdon Island) as a cost-cuuting exercise when laying a parking line. I don't know what the AUW of a B-24 is, but there's one :* ('44) probably there yet.

Happy New Year !

Danny.

Danny42C
28th Dec 2014, 13:01
Danny has some General Observations on Value Added Tax
====================================

(You were threatend with this some time ago)

"The art of taxation consists in so plucking the goose as to obtain the largest amount of feathers with the least possible amount of hissing." (Colbert - Finance Minister to Louis XIV of France).

Did they really do this to a living goose in those times - take a regular "crop" of feathers as you shear a sheep for its wool ? (sounds painful for the goose, but then the making of paté de fois gras wasn't much fun for the bird, either). Didn't know feathers re-grew, but I suppose they must do.

On Colbert's principle, Value Added Tax was the best idea since sliced bread. As it has such an enormous tax "base" (in my time with C&E, we said that it was levied on everything unless you could eat it, live in it, or burn it to keep warm), you could start it at a low rate without provoking too much outcry (although the lumpenproletariat did jib at paying 2½d * for a Mars Bar which plainly had "2d" * on the wrapper). And as retail prices didn't have to specify the tax included in the bill, and inflation was really getting into its stride and masking it, the "Hard Working People of Britain" (of whom our politicians daily express themselves so fond) soon ceased to notice. It became invisible in their daily shopping bills.

Note * Ask your Dad.

It was easy from then on to screw the rates upward until now it brings in around half as much as Income Tax without the HWPOB feeling as much (or any) pain. It is the third largest contributor to the Exchequer after National Insurance. Point One to Colbert.

Then came a stroke of genius of which even a Colbert would be proud. Why not make every man his own unpaid Tax Collector ? (Or at least every person in our charmed circle, ie those "Registered for VAT"). Granted, Inland Revenue much preferred dealing with more or less honest Accountants (the devils they knew), whose mouths watered at the prospect at all the extra work (and cash) that (they thought) the new legislation would bring their way, than with individuals.

But the retail "Traders" (C&E speak: Mr.Singh on his market stall is a "Trader"; M & S is a "Trader" [and indeed started on a stall on Leeds market]; they're all the same in our eyes), felt they were paying their friendly local Accountant quite enough already for telling their black lies to the Revenue. So it was that, when we told them that VAT was simple (which was not exactly true): that it had been designed so that anyone who could count on his fingers and toes could keep a VAT Account and operate it him/herself, and that really, it wasn't costing them (as Traders) a penny, they were just the collectors of the tax on our behalf , they were on our side: it was win-win. (so who actually pays VAT - do you really need to ask ?)

All they had to do was keep a simple account book of the Input Tax that they paid for the purposes of their business, and the Output Tax charged on their sales, and every quarter tot-up and pay us the difference with a Return. Not rocket science, now, was it ? And we didn't even have to recruit (and pay) a vast army of clerks to do the sums - our Traders would DIY. Brilliant ! (Game set and match to H.M. C&E)

Accordingly, in the Year of Our Lord 1972, and in the premiership of the late Sir Edward Heath of blessed memory (though there was/is some dissent about that, particularly among fishermen), it was enacted by Parliament, in the Finance Act of that year, that this wholly admirable Tax should be enshrined in Law, to bite in 1973 (I think).

But four hundred or so years of experience since Charles II set up his "Rightful and Honourable Customs" had convinced his noble band of Crown servants that not all his subjects were strictly honest; not all gladly paid the King his lawful dues and some actually took active steps to avoid doing so. And this reprehensible behaviour has continued to this very day. In short, we would be robbed blind if we didn't go out from time to time to see how our "Traders" were getting on. So was born (as a sub-species of the Officer of Customs and Excise, but of the same rank and pay), the new trade of Vatman.

Pre-War, "Officer of C&E" had been an enviable appointment. His salary went up to £600 (four times the average male wage then - in our money £100,000 pa). As one old one reflected: "You could then buy a new small house and a new small car, and still have change out of a year's salary". But not now: Civil Service salaries have lagged woefully behind inflation since the war; as successive Governments, pleading poverty, have hit on their own people first. Once an Executive Officer was paid as much as an M.P. - now you'd need to be an Assistant Secretary (five grades higher, and only two below Sir Humphrey) to say the same.

For some reason this profession has attracted some of a literary bent: inter alia "Robbie" Burns, Thomas Paine and Adam Smith (thanks, Wiki). (Perhaps they had a lot of free time on their hands, and their "Parson's Freehold" # was useful, too).

So we Vatmen were on the road: Many errors came to light - the only curious thing was that for every twenty "errors" discovered, nineteen were in favour of the Trader and only one in our favour. Funny, that.

Note # detail later, this is too long already.

Happy New Year to y'all.

Danny the :mad: Vatman

Warmtoast
28th Dec 2014, 15:59
Hi Danny

Compliments of the season to you too - and the others who visit this forum.

Thanks for your piece on how VAT originated - very enlightening!

However, since we joined the EU things have not greatly improved - see some of the different rates of EU VAT below - the poor residents of Denmark seem to suffer most of all.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/EuropeanVATRates_zpscfbcd5e9.jpg

Fully list here for those interested: http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/resources/documents/taxation/vat/how_vat_works/rates/vat_rates_en.pdf

harrym
28th Dec 2014, 17:23
Yes Danny, PSP had its imperfections but as a temporary airfield surfacing medium it was brilliant - hard wearing, relatively easy to lay and drained well (important in monsoon-prone areas). For sure, it lingered on too long in some places (Changi up to 1950, i.e.), while its loud clanging at each impact would signal a poorly executed landing to all within earshot!

Re VAT: you make a convincing case for it, but to the ordinary citizen it has one gross iniquity - the manner in which it contrives to levy an additional tax on top of another already applied. Take petrol & diesel, already loaded with a heavy impost in the form of excise but then has VAT levied on the sum of basic price + duty - talk about two bites at the same cherry!

Fareastdriver
28th Dec 2014, 18:06
If the Danes hadn't had so many referendems to become members of the EU they would not have such a high rate.

Chugalug2
28th Dec 2014, 22:21
... that this wholly admirable Tax should be enshrined in Law, to bite in 1973 (I think).
Oh, it bit alright, Danny. I left the RAF on 1st April 1973, having PVR'd. I had tried to get HMG to pay for my IRT course (at Kidlington), but the nice people at the Swindon Labour Exchange regretfully announced that the Training Opportunities Scheme had just been wound up, as they had surprisingly run out of money paying for much such training. Oh well, I suppose that was what the gratuity was for.

It turned out it was for more than that, as Kidlington regretfully announced that they were required to charge an extra 10% VAT on all their course fees, but hoped that their application to be registered as an Educational Establishment would soon enable them to refund me the impost. They hoped in vain, and the manic taxi meter that I imagined as sitting atop the instrument coaming of their Piper Twin Comanches spun at an even greater rate than originally envisaged. How I laughed at this splendid April jest!

The final word, as ever, from Wiki:-

On 1 January 1973 the UK joined the European Economic Community (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Community) and as a consequence Purchase Tax was replaced by Value Added Tax on 1 April 1973.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_Added_Tax_%28United_Kingdom%29#cite_note-Guard-3)[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_Added_Tax_%28United_Kingdom%29#cite_note-Ind-6)[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_Added_Tax_%28United_Kingdom%29#cite_note-DT-7) The then Conservative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Party_%28UK%29) Chancellor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chancellor_of_the_Exchequer) Lord Barber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Barber) set a single VAT rate (10%) on most goods and services

Danny42C
29th Dec 2014, 02:00
harrym,

The tax-on-tax "scam" predated VAT - it applied in the earlier Purchase Tax days, too. I must have bought my Renault 16 in tne first quarter of '73, for I remember that I paid Import Duty of 11% (I think) and then a hefty Purchase Tax on the sum of the import price plus Import duty. Daylight Robbery !

It was this that meant that the Peugeot I bought in France when I was posted to RAF(G) in '60 cost me only a basic £520, while in UK the same car was £1050 !

VAT replaced Purchase Tax on 1st April '73, but we only did "Educational Visits" to firms for the rest of the year (luring them into a sense of false security ?) before showing our teeth in '74.

I hadn't much experience of PSP (the noise terrified me - sounded as if the a/c was falling apart), because we could only operate in cloudless skies (the dog must see the rabbit !), so we were happy on our kutcha strips in the dry season and didn't need it. When the pre-monsoon clouds built up, we decamped to paved strips in W.Bengal, and it would be then that the Daks, Beaus and Hurricanes needed PSP in the Monsoon.

When the clouds had cleared and the mud strips had dried out, we went back to them......D.

Warmtoast,

Your Table gives the reduced VAT rates for certain categories of goods. All other goods (and all services) were taxable at the Standard Rate (except that some goods were taxable, but at the Zero Rate. And some services were Exempt. (It starts to get a bit complicated after that, but that was the state of play when I started in '73 (IIRC). From there it just built up.

There was a tiny sweetener. If you'd bought goods from another EU member, and paid VAT at Standard rate (which might be less than the Uk Standard rate), you didn't have to pay any difference when you got home (we're all Heart !). .....D.

Chugalug,

Your: "The then Conservative Chancellor Lord Barber". You may recall that, having organised gainful employment to earn a modest crust after leaving the RAF, I was debarred from picking up a £1000 "Disturbance Allowance" granted to those on the Unemployed Register who'd found a job in another area off their own bat, simply because I'd found mine before I'd "signed on" !

I appealed this monstrous decision to the said Lord Anthony Barber, but got no joy. You seem to have been in a similar case. There's always a snag in the Fine Print !......D.

All the best to you all in the New Year !

Danny.

mmitch
29th Dec 2014, 09:39
I remember the tradesman's vans sporting 'By appointment unpaid tax collector to HM government.' :)
mmitch.

binbrook
29th Dec 2014, 11:21
Like most of HMG's 'giveaways' the Disturbance Allowance (plus the costs of house-hunting and removal, and a bonus if you moved to an area where there was supposedly a shortage of labour!) given to help the unemployed find work elsewhere did not get a lot of publicity - you might even say care was taken to make sure its existence was well-hidden. Like Danny I had a job lined up, but unlike him I was lucky and chanced to hear about scheme on Radio 4's lunchtime consumer programme. This spelt out the arcane conditions in some detail, and I was able to register before applying - one wrong step though after that and you'd still had it! The experience of being on the wrong side of the counter at the Labour Exchanges at both ends (were they Jobcentres in the 70s?) was opinion-forming to say the least. AFAIR the allowances amounted in total to about £800, not a huge amount even then but tax-free and a godsend at a very difficult time.

Danny42C
30th Dec 2014, 18:48
binbrook (your #6620).

Re: "The experience of being on the wrong side of the counter" rings a bell with me.

Thirty four years before I retired in '72, as a 16 yr old I'd started as a "box clerk" in an "Employment Exchange" (which name had at least a little dignity about it, unlike the current faux-plebeian "Job Centre"). But there was precious little "employment" to exchange in those days: there were 2 million unemployed (out of a much smaller working population) right up to the War.

At the age of 40, you had little hope of re-employment, after 50 none. (This would cover many ex-servicemen from WWI). Friday after Friday I faced the endless queues of hopeless-eyed men, who quietly shuffled up to my "box" position (one of four) at the counter to hand in their yellow UB40s. I'd lift their stubby small 'file' from my drawer of files, pull out the UB252 (?) payment slip, check against my 'Rating Sheet' * , if the amounts tallied "Sign here, please" #, then pass across the 17/- for a single man, 27/-for a married (plus 3/- for each child). (If they'd run out of Benefit, it would be 14/- from the Assistance Board plus (I hope, the 10/- and 3/- as well).

Any discrepancy: "Down to the end of the counter" (another queue ! - for I had to keep my "production line" going at all costs - the next batch would be coming in on the half-hour), There a senior clerk or the Supervisor (the only Executive Class Officer) would sort it out, then send him back to the tail of my queue and finally to me once more.

All the other "box clerks" were "TMC 3s" - "Temporary Male Clerk, Grade III", ex-servicemen from the last war, recruited from the other side of the counter and pathetically grateful for a job which paid hardly more than benefit rates, had no security and no pension. I was the only "Established Civil Servant" there (apart from the Supervisor), with a secure job (even if it paid only 30/- a week then) and a half-pay pension to look forward to in 44 years' time.

Note *: the benefit due had to be calculated independently by two separate clerks, the amounts were not cross-checked until the claimant was in front of me (as a bar to collusive fraud ?)

Note # "Or make your mark" (a "X"). Illiteracy was not then uncommon, we had a tiny rubber stamp "........His/Her Mark", which fitted in the signature box in the UB252 and on which a clerk had filled in "John Smith" or whatever.

So now, 31 years on, I was to have a taste of my own nedicine, and I was not looking forward to it at all, although it would be only for 4 weeks before I took up my post with C&E in Manchester. I cannot remember where the Thirsk "Job Centre" was (it would probably have been a part-time "Out-House" from Darlington, anyway).

It wasn't as demeaning as I feared, but I was intrigued by the fact that so little had changed from my day. I had the same yellow UB40, the (single) "box clerk" was still there with his "box" and Rating Sheet on the counter, I signed the same UB252 - but I think they paid by Bank Giro, not cash. For my 4 weeks I got £20 a week, which was a useful addition to the £25 RAF pension (multiply by 11.7 for current values).

I read carefully every relevant leaflet I could find; in this way I came across the generous "Disturbance Allowance" (I've said "£1,000", but I suppose it was "up to"). As you found, there was a joker in the pack (but you managed to avoid him !).

I can't complain about the attitude of the "Job Centre" staff; they were pleasant enough in "signing me on", although firm in refusing me my "Disturbance Allowance". :{ I remembered, pre-war, one of our older "customers" had reached 65 and so had left us for good after years of benefit or assistance payments. The old chap made a special visit to us to thank us all for the courteous treatment that he'd always had from us over the years. The incident has remained bright in my memory ever since.

All the best for the New Year,

Danny.

PS: Wiki says the term "Job Centre" was introduced "in the mid 1970s".

MPN11
30th Dec 2014, 19:25
Oh, Danny42C, what a picture you paint!

My only experience of that world was when I moved to Jersey in '05, and was able [by being over 60] to opt out of their Social Security system. My 'child bride', being a bit younger, was required [no option] to contribute some £200+ a month until she reached 'a certain age', at which point she now receives nearly £15 a week. No, I can't be bothered to work out the pay-back :D

However, we have both received our UK Pensioner's £10 Christmas Bonus [tax free], which has to be one of the biggest political farces going.

Stuff it ... we're off to Hawaii on Thursday, all the way in Business/US Domestic First, for £1,151 per person :eek:

Danny42C
31st Dec 2014, 17:14
MPN11,

Bloated Plutocrat ! Wouldn't exactly want it to happen, but if you do get hijacked or plunge into the ocean, you wouldn't grudge us a bit of Schadenfreude, now would you ?

Have a nice trip ! Don't take any Confederate money ! Happy new year !

Danny.

smujsmith
31st Dec 2014, 17:40
Danny et al,

Can I take this opportunity to wish the most prosperous and Happy New year to all contributors to this thread. Thank you all for the continued interesting narrative over the past 12 months. Looking forward to another year of terrific history, as it happened. Lang may all ye lumps reek !!!!!!

Smudge:ok:

MPN11
31st Dec 2014, 19:00
Smudge's sentiment strongly re-expressed from this callsign. Thank you ALL for the fascinating joy-ride this Thread has been in the past years. Being an 'elder' never stops you from learning more from the wonderful narratives here, for which I thank you all profoundly.

And, Danny42C mon vieux, "Que Sera, Sera". It appears it will be piddling down on Honolulululu when we arrive on Friday, so Waikikikikiki Beach will be slightly off-limits! Your Schadenfreude has kicked in already :sad:

Bless y'all ... Good Health and Happiness for 2015 :ok:

Brian 48nav
1st Jan 2015, 09:22
Thank you everyone that has contributed to the best thread on Prune - wonderful stories, and importantly no snidey comments or 'willie-waving' as is often the case on forums such as this!


MPN11


Have a good time in Hawaii - I went there in May '68 on a Westabout' from Changi and recall being slightly disappointed when I saw Waikiki. I was and still am a great Beach Boys fan and one their tracks on 'Surfer Girl' LP was called 'Hawaii' - chorus went something like ' Honolulu, Waikiki, do you wanna come along with me? '. Maybe the beach wasn't as spectacular as I had envisaged.


Went there again in June '70 while on 30 at Fairford and had a day off and boozy time with the double crew. I can't recall them all, my skipper was Mike Mercer, the co was Steve Pull and the other nav' was my constant partner in crime Jeff Berryman ( sadly RIP last summer). Jeff and I both became civil ATCOs.

Geriaviator
1st Jan 2015, 17:38
Danny writes: pull out the UB252 (?) payment slip

I do hope this is not a Freudian slip, O revered and learned one. I seem to recall that a form 252 is the charge sheet for the Boys in Blue and Pongos alike. :ooh:

Whatever our record, may we all have a peaceful, prosperous and above all a healthy New Year. Best wishes, everyone.

Chugalug2
1st Jan 2015, 22:13
A Happy New Year for all, especially to our Maitre'd and Master of Ceremonies of this splendid thread. Your enthusiasm is an example to us all, Danny.

I agree with you re Waikiki, B48N. Rather a let down, but no doubt so is Bondi as well. What was good was being put up at Fort deRussy, the US R&R single story facility bordering the beach. That was mid '60s, was it still there when you visited? I see that it is now a twin tower hotel according to our ever trusted Wiki:-
Hale Koa Hotel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hale_Koa_Hotel)

Ormeside28
2nd Jan 2015, 13:34
Hello again. I left you at Aldergrove in January 1957.
The beauty of being in Coastal Command was that it seemed to be far removed from the remainder of the R.A.F. When we landed away at St Mawgan, St Eval, Gibraltar, Malta, Aden we always knew people from the resident Shackleton Squadrons. Also when we flew navexs we were free to look at ships, harbours etc. Also we were told, and I do not know true this is, that Coastal captains were advised, not ordered similar to ships captains!
120 Squadron had been the top scoring anti submarine squadron during the war and was the first to be equipped with the Mk 1 Shackleton in 1951. The Liberators had all been returned to America after the war and been replaced by Lancasters. The Shack was a great improvement as it was not so cramped but was incredibly noisy. Until the Mk 111 there was not any soundproofing.
In 1957 soon after I joined 120, the Mk 1 was replaced with the Mk 11. This had the long nose with the gunners position and twin 20mm cannon. The radar scanner under the nose of the Mk 1 had been replaced by a retractable "dustbin" aft of the main spar. A streamlined observation window was located in the tail for an observer to observe "fall of shot". A very nice aeroplane but incredibly noisy, hence "Shackleton Ear" and pensions!!
Soon after I had been given a crew it was back to Londonderry to the JASS Course. By now the ex Neptuners were finishing their conversions at Kinloss and being distributed to the Shackleton squadrons so it was nice seeing old friends again.
Now Northern Ireland was beginning to become unpleasant and we were all advised to be very careful. Police stations were being targetted and road blocks were regular occurrences at night. A blue lantern meant stop and we hoped that it was the "B" Specials and not the others!!
In early summer 1957 one of our aircraft was sent to Gibraltar to take the Duke of Edinburgh on an anti-submarine exercise which was carried out satisfactorily. On its next trip (WR 968) failed to get three greens so was diverted to a foamed landing at the French base at Port Lyautey in Morocco. A working party from Gib managed to get it flyable and returned it to Gib. At Aldergrove I was told to get a skeleton crew proceed to Gib and fly it back.
People in the mess at Gib were very solicitous, drinks etc and the following morning we saw why and what we had to fly!.. No hydraulics, Bomb doors wired closed. No Flaps, Undercarriage locked down. Do not attempt to ditch!! Anyway the trip back was ok but a bit worrying and an even closer watch on gauges!!
Our Shackleton trips were longer than the Neptune ones. On the Neptune the longest were about 15 hours, on the Shack we regularly did 18 hours. At least we had a galley in the Shack. In those days we cooked. None of the frozen meals that the 111's had.

Fareastdriver
2nd Jan 2015, 14:46
Ormeside 22

You may remember that beside the road from the front of the Aldergrove Officers Mess to the perimeter track were the overflow accomodation huts and on the sports field side a large wooden building. In the forties this was the WAAF officers wing but when I was there in 1949/50 it was used as a married quarter.

As a lad of nine I used to walk around the perimeter track, past ATC, the RAuxAF blister hangers, across the runway crossing and down the road to Aldergrove Halt. There it was 4th class (wooden seats) to Lisburn and then a walk to Lisburn High School.

You mention the troubles. There were two Catholic boys who joined the train at Crumlin. They always sat with me because none of the other Irish boys would talk to them. When we got to Lisburn they went to a Catholic school and even though the initial walk could have been together they would not let me in case I should find myself in trouble.

Fron the house I would sit looking out of the window directly across the sports field to the runways and during my time there I watched a couple of Halifaxs, a Mosquito and innumerable Spitfire 22s disassemble themselves. The most amusing at an Empire Air Day was a Tiger Moth doing aerobatices that finished with a 0.75 loop. It was severly crumpled, but nobody hurt and they put it on a trailer and towed it around the crowd so that they could see what a crashed aircraft looked like.

The dump by the Maintenance Unit was heaven to play in. They had a Sunderland plus Halifaxs, Lancasters and multitudes of smaller aircraft. Just behind was an old taxitrack where a Squadron Leader and his family lived in a caravan.

They had a daughter, Deidre, the first love of my life.

Danny42C
3rd Jan 2015, 00:02
Smudge, MPN11, Brian 48nav, Geriaviator, Chugalug, and Ormeside (and all the rest) Greetings !.

MPN11, Your: "It appears it will be piddling down on Honolulululu when we arrive". Same here - nothing changes. (and go easy on the complimentary Pol Roger in Business Class - an extra couple of 'lu's and 'ki's seem to have crept in !). And don't take any wooden nickels !

Geriaviator, Could well be a slip (but Freud has little relevance at my age !). How about 245 ? Is there anyone on frequency and on t' Dole ? Do they still have those little slips to sign ? (but then I suppose it's all "on line" now).

Chugalug, Your: "our Maitre'd and Master of Ceremonies of this splendid thread". You'll make me blush ! People may believe it ! (All the inhabitants of our Crewroom in Cyberspace are of equal status - we have no "bosses" here !). It was just my good fortune to look in three years ago when candidates from WWII were scarce, the Founding Giants had, sadly, died out, and I could hold the Fort until reinforcements have turned up.

Ormeside, "Hard pounding, Gentlemen", indeed ! But then think of all those lovely hours clocking up in your Logbooks (even though your job was only i/c Frying Pan). And the civvie vacancies waiting for you when you turned up with a wheelbarrow full of them ! :ok:

Cheers, Danny.

Warmtoast
3rd Jan 2015, 19:54
Ormeside28

we were told, and I do not know true this is, that Coastal captains were advised, not ordered similar to ships captains!In 1957 whilst based at RAF China Bay (just across the Bay from the RN Base at Trincomalee), Seletar-based 205/209 Sqn had a Sunderland on permanent detachment for SAR purposes. I enjoyed trips around the north-east coast of Ceylon and the wonderful views from the Sunderland's panoramic windows.
A plus point about the Sunderland was that it was equipped with a Primus (paraffin) fuelled galley for fry ups and fresh brewed tea. Flying in a Sunderland the 205/209 crews adopted Senior Service parlance and called what I knew as a galley, the "Wardroom" - all very civilised!

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20China%20Bay/ViewThroughWindow2.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20China%20Bay/ChinaBay1957-SunderlandAlightingAre.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20China%20Bay/ViewThroughWindow.jpg

Ormeside28
3rd Jan 2015, 20:31
Warmtoast. I joined 205 at Changi when we were still half and half Sunderlands and Shackletons. We must have served together. However I still have a few things to tell about 120.

smujsmith
3rd Jan 2015, 20:31
Warmtoast,

Great photographs, and what an experience that must have been. For some of us, taken with the four engined types, that would have been heaven. Super pictures of another world I think.

Smudge:ok:

Wander00
4th Jan 2015, 06:59
I was always attracted by the Sunderland and flying off water, but they retired before I "arrived". Going to make up for it at Biscarosse this summer

Ormeside28
5th Jan 2015, 17:14
Life on 120 was busy and interesting. Plenty of flying, a couple of sessions at the JASS Course at Londonderry with tame frigates and once with operational ones including a frigate Commanded by Commander Place V.C. of Tirpitz fame. Also a couple of trips to the JASS School in Malta to operate with the Mediterranean Fleet.
On Navexs in the North West and South West approaches we could contact individual British merchant ships which all carried convoy escort plans and say that we would use them as a convoy which was interesting and entailed lamp work by the sigmallers. Navexs were usually carried out at around 1000 feet and we sometimes came across Russian Elint ships,probably not known to our authorities. Shadowing Russian warships leaving the Baltic was one of our jobs and we would see them past North Cape. They obviously used us for practice, and we could pick up their gun radar on our ECM. The big transatlantic liners were often seen on our trips. The Queen Mary at speed was a sight to behold. sometimes the propellor "disturbance" would go back thirty miles. At the heights we flew there was usually something to see and British trawlesr far north would give us a friendly wave.

Ormeside28
5th Jan 2015, 20:00
In February 1958 I was lucky enough to take one of two Shackletons to visit some of the American Naval Stations on their Eastern seaboard. Our first stop was Lajes in the Azores. the winds were against us the next day for Bermuda so it had to be Stephenville on Newfoundland. on then to Navy Norfolk. Big reception and party and visit to base and operations. Our next port of call was Guantamino Bay. Lovely weather by now, and I was given a trip in a Blimp. Large comfortable control cabin with an outside balcony. The engineer could work on the engines from this balcony. The Captain even let me have a go and it was remarkably manoeuvrable for such a large vehicle, though in a headwind it wouldn't make

much progress and the "landing" was very complicated and needed a lot of ground crew. After several days we continued to Key West and another reception and party. Also a game fishing trip with the Admiral in his splendid "barge" though I don't think that was what he called it.
Our next stop was Navy Jacksonville and it's Hurricane Hunter Constellations.
At all these bases we were treated right royally. The people were very interested in our Shackletons and the equipment we carried and we were shown everything on the American bases. Treated as nationals really.
Our last base in the U.S. Was Brunswick, Maine with their Mariner and Marlin flying boats. We were cleared from Jacksonville at 19,000 feet. As we didn,t carry oxygen we had to decline! They eventually cleared us at 5,000 feet so it was a real sightseeing run to Brunswick and another great welcome. I,m running out of battery. Will continue later.

Danny42C
6th Jan 2015, 00:32
Warmtoast (your #6632),

Lovely pics ! But what was the idea of those weird shaped exhaust stacks (?) sticking up out of the engine cowlings ?

D.

Warmtoast
6th Jan 2015, 20:16
Danny42C

what was the idea of those weird shaped exhaust stacks (?) sticking up out of the engine cowlings
I have no idea, but think there are experts around here who will come up with an answer.

Meanwhile here are the exhaust stubs seen from another angle from a photo I've posted earlier.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20China%20Bay/ChinaBay-SunderlandOverwingrefuelling.jpg

Danny42C
6th Jan 2015, 20:45
Warmtoast,

Could it be a flame-suppressant idea ?

Somebody's picked up a fine tan from somewhere !

D.

Warmtoast
6th Jan 2015, 22:32
Danny


The photo was taken at RAF Glugor (Penang) in 1957. My recollections of Malaya and Singapore were that they were not good places to get a tan easily - too humid - still the chap in my photo got one from somewhere!


WT

Danny42C
6th Jan 2015, 23:10
You may recall that some time ago, I noticed that several Posts seemed to have disappeared from the record around the time of my arrival in India, so here is a re-written bit.

After two months on the Open Wave in the good troopship "Stirling Castle", my bunch of newly hatched RAF Hurricane and Spitfire Sgt-pilots disembarked, a week or two before Christmas of '42, before the "Gateway of India" (a massive commemorative arch) in Bombay . The general idea was (or we thought it was) that we should fly Spitfires to defend the "Jewel in the Crown" against possible Japanese air attacks (they had walked up to the NE India/Burma border though Malaya and Burma, and were expected to keep on walking, for our defences in the area were woefully weak at that time).

Our hopes of emulating the "Few" of the BoB and covering ourselves with glory were dashed for two reasons: there were no Spitfires at all in India and the Jap wasn't making any air attacks anyway. But that was for the future, for the moment we were parked in a Transit Camp (where else ?) at Worli, a northern suburb of Bombay.

There is in our Forces a long tradition that, on Christmas Day, the Officers and SNCOs of every Unit (do Corporals escape duty ?) should serve Christmas Dinners to their troops. And so at Worli 30-odd Sgt-Pilots made up a large proportion of the "volunteer" waiters (there seemed to be few other Officers or SNCOs to hand), who stood ready to do their duty.

The Airmen's Dining Room, and the Kitchen which served it, were open sided larg bambo "Bashas", separated by some 40 yards of open ground.

Now one of the first wild creatures you meet in the subcontinent is the ****ehawk (I make no apology for the use of the name - the Oxford English Dictionary knows all about it and there are plenty of references to it. It seems to have been variously identified as a Red Kite and a Black Kite, and photographs show an eagle-type of bird, but the ones I saw (and I saw hundreds) resembled more a small, scruffy vulture. A grown specimen was the size of a big turkey, say 20lb, with sharp beak and talons.

Be that as it may the skies above any human settlement were crowded (at 1,000 ft or so) with these birds, lazily circling in the thermals and keeping a sharp eye open for food. They were scavengers, not predators. This was long before cellophane, cartons and plastic bags; the waste that piled up was all animal and vegetable: this was their fare. Whether they were coprophagic I cannot say, but they had the unlovely habit of starting at the anus of any dead creature they found. On account of their value as scavengers (as are our carrion crows) these birds were esteemed and protected by the law of the Raj.

In Bombay the Parsee community made use of the SHs to dispose of, in a natural way, their dead. On Malabar Hill they built a "Tower of Silence". This was a cylindrical building perhaps 20 ft diameter and slightly higher. The top was open to the skies, but a few feet down a wide iron grating stretched across the gap. The deceased was placed on this grating, and left to the sun, wind and rain - and the birds. When these had done their work, the skeleton, now cleaned of all flesh and connective tissue, disintegrated and fell through the grating to an ossuary below. What happened then, I don't know, but it seems that India was (and is) an exporter of bonemeal.

At Worli the "waiter service" involved carrying unprotected plates of food across the 40 yard gap. The local SHs noted this and quickly developed a suitable tactic. Flying a tight LH circuit round the dining basha at roof height, they made a "firing pass" each time round. Their object was to snatch the food from the plates, but inevitably many plates were knocked or dropped from the hands of the terrified "waiter", in which case another bird in line astern would pick the food up from the ground. Avian news of this bonanza quickly spread and soon every SH in Bombay eagerly joined in the fun.

It became obvious that a "waiter" could carry only one plate at a time, for you needed a piece of wood, the size of a policeman's truncheon or a baseball bat, to defend your plate (and yourself, too, for there were accidental injuries); if a beak or talon scratch had drawn blood you should report to the MO ASAP - for you never Knew Where the Bird Had Been ! (but you could guess).

The impatient diners hooted with mirth, even when the bird won and someone's dinner had gone flying: not only were they being served - they had this cabaret as well ! I would estimate (from my own experience) that 2/3 of the dinners got through (the cooks must have cooked extra dinners to allow for this). Normally, I suppose the food would have been sent across fom the cookhouse in bulk in covered trollies, and the usual serving line set up in the Dining basha.

The SHs were amazingly clever fliers, I don't think anyone ever landed a blow on them - they dodged so quickly. They had the "slatted" wing tip feathers of all the hawk tribe (there must be an enormous aeronautical advantage in this, but our designers haven't worked it out yet). For this reason, bird strikes were almost unknown in my time.

The only one I fielded (in three years and 300 hours) was hopping casually around in the middle of my strip when I came along full chat on takeoff. There was a heavy thud :ooh: and a cloud of feathers flew out of the cowl gills and flashed past the cockpit. The engine wasn't bothered, and in any case I was far too fast and too far down to abandon take off, so I flew a quick circuit and put it down again.

My chaps had to take all the engine panels off: the carcase was wedged between the two rows of cylinders and they spent a happy hour :( up the stepladders fishing out blood, guts and feathers (these would, of course, be immediately consumed by the remaining SHs).

And that is all I can tell you about SHs.

Goodnight, all.

Danny42C.

"What did you do in the Great War, Daddy ?"

Pom Pax
7th Jan 2015, 17:08
Flame-suppressant fits my guess... also fitting something which will glow in the dark topsides when those that are trying to spot you are much more likely to be below you than above.
Red hot metal and cold sea water..........splash on landing??????????? Moved away from the spray.

"What did you do in the Great War, Daddy ?"
Very little........might post on a very slow news day when we sink into page 2.

Ormeside28
7th Jan 2015, 20:45
Danny, I had no wish to fly for airlines after I left the R.A.F. I enjoyed my service flying, especially on Coastal where we were very much left to get on with the job and only the Cat board to worry about.
Well our stay at Brunswick was interesting. The Marlins and Mariners were impressive but I preferred my Shackleton. Once again the Americans treated us right royally, and we appreciated their kindness
Our final destination was the R.C.A.F. Station, Greenwood in Nova Scotia. We took part in an exercise with their carrier Bonaventura and submarines. Then the R.C.A.F. Had a squadron of Maritime Lancasters at Greenwood. After the exercise we had the "wash up" at Halifax. The whole area was snowbound but we just sped along the road in a staff car, seemingly without any problems!
Our return to Aldergrove was via Lajes. Again.
Back at Aldergrove, more shadowing, then another visit to the School at Luqa.
Whilst I was there a friend at Coastal rang my wife at Belfast to see if we would like to join the new Shackleton squadron replacing the Sunderlands from Seletar at Changi. Yes please.
So back at Aldergrove, pack your bags and move on 9th June 1958. Unfortunately my leave was extended because of the trouble in the Middle East and it was not until August 9th 1958 that my wife and I and small daughter departed Blackbushe in a Hermes 11 of Air-work. Carried families for Changi.
Our route was Brindisi, Ankara, Abadan (dicky engine ), Karachi (night stop) Delhi, Calcutta, Bangkok, Singapore. What a relief! And now 205 .

Brian 48nav
8th Jan 2015, 08:54
We had a Herc' captain on 30 ( late 60s/early 70s ) who had been on Sunderlands with 205 in the late 50s - a Kiwi called 'Abe' Lincoln ( RIP ). Did you serve together?

Ormeside28
8th Jan 2015, 14:01
Hello Brian 48Nav. Abe Lincoln was one of the first of the Sunderland Captains to convert on to the Shackleton and I flew with him on two Navexs in the South China Sea. The boss said to remind him not to land in the water! A very nice man who was very concerned about water spouts, especially at night, as we reckoned that they didnt always show up on radar. When he came back to the U.K. he was at Northolt before going to Transport.

Chugalug2
8th Jan 2015, 14:40
Like Brian, I remember Abe well on 30 at Fairford. A gentleman in every way, he explained that Flying Boat operation required as much knowledge of Seamanship as of Airmanship.

Pom Pax
8th Jan 2015, 16:24
Ormeside28, Chugalug2, Brian 48nav.

Gentlemen since we are name dropping any recollections of either Fred Harris or Bill Porter? Both were boatmen navigators and my instructors at 2 ANS. I know Fred was on the North East Greenland expedition.

Ormeside28
8th Jan 2015, 17:02
My new C.O. On 205 was Wing Commander MacReadie.He was on the Greenland expedition. He apparently hit ice on landing in the fjord but was able to beach the Sunderland. It was fitted with a concrete patch and cleared for one take off and then landing at Pembroke Dock. Another nice chap and a good C.O .
Another ex Sunderland Captain who joined us was Flt.Lt.Stan Bowater, sadly lost a couple of months later with Stan Bouttell, but I will come to that.

Danny42C
8th Jan 2015, 17:12
Ormeside,

Your: "The Marlins and Mariners were impressive but I preferred my Shackleton".

Speaking as one who knows nowt about it: I know that: "Happiness is Four Engines", but flying over open water, wouldn't you be better off in something that could float ? :ok:

D.

Ormeside28
8th Jan 2015, 21:50
I joined 205 Squadron at Changi on12th August 1958, and found out that I was to be used as co - pilot to those ex Sunderland Captains who had been converted to Shackletons.
At this time 205/209 Squadron was partly Sunderlands at Seletar and partly Shackleton Mk 1 s at Changi. The Sunderlands were being sold off to Chinese wreckers and we still only had a few Shackletons at Changi
We were in permanent buildings on the main site at Changi but our aeroplanes were at the seaward side of the airfield on PSP tracking! The poor ground crew were in tents
As the "Converter" (J.E.) had not yet arrived with his crew - I was to be his co- pilot until another Sunderland Captain was converted - I was sent on the Jungle Survival Course. One week at Changi learning the basics and then a week up country in Malaya putting it into practice. With a rifle and five rounds, stand to at dusk and dawn to "beat off Communist attacks". Luckily no attacks happened to us. Interesting, but hardly enjoyable. The jungle is certainly not neutral!
My Captain arrived at the beginning of October and it was back to flying Shackletons.
We had a lot of dealings with the Far Eastern Fleet. There was a flotilla of "c" class destroyers, the carrier Albion and various frigates and submarines. We had plenty of exercises with them, social occasions as well. Sometimes we exercised with the Australians, the Siamese and of course the Americans out of the Philipines.
On 9th December we were on SAR standby. Stan Bouttell, who converted me at Aldergrove, with an ex- Sunderland Captain, Stan Bowater as his co - pilot, and the ex 120 Squadron crew who I knew, was on an anti - piracy patrol around Borneo. They had been diverted to search for a missing boat. They found it and said that they were resuming their task. That was the last message, and they had been out of contact. When it was dark at Labuan, and no sign of Stan, we were ordered off. We followed his intended track around North Borneo and orbited until daylight, landing after 17 hours at Labuan. By this time a full scale search was under way. After six days it was called off and we asked to do one more trip up the atolls. At Sin Cowe there was a grave with a bowl on top, a wooden cross with B205 (now in St Eval Church), B205 in coral on the beach and an arrow pointing north. We landed again at Labuan and asked if we could follow the arrow. Yes! The NZ frigate Rotoriti landed a party and brought the body of the engineer, F/S Dancy, back to Singapore. We followed the arrow to the north, we felt sure that there were survivors because of the arrow. Checked the Paracelsus, Hainan, and landed at Hong Kong. Months later a Formosan fisherman reported that he had witnessed the aircraft crashing and had taken the only body that appeared. He was apparently given gold for his kindness.
It was a very sad occasion, but two more Shackletons were lost later en route from Gan to Changi. Enough for now.

Warmtoast
8th Jan 2015, 22:38
Ormeside28

The Sunderlands were being sold off to Chinese wreckers
As here - the wreckers yard at Seletar in November 1957.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Changi%20%20and%20Seletar/Image5_zps3926937e.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Changi%20%20and%20Seletar/SunderlandSZ577_1280x773.jpg

Danny42C
9th Jan 2015, 14:28
Ormeside and Warmtoast,

(From Wiki): "To the Shackleton is often incorrectly attributed the unfortunate distinction of holding the record for the highest number of aircrew killed in one type in peacetime in the RAF. The true figures suggest rather differently in that some of its contemporaries fared far worse, such as the Gloster Meteor with over 430 fatal losses of aircrew" [out of 3947 built or 10.9%] against the Shackleton's 156 [out of 185 built or 84.3%]. But as they had 10 crew, you could reckon they killed 8.4% of all their crewmen.

For the Meteor, many (say a ¼) of the accidents would be in dual training in the T7s in the early '50s; this would mean a "crew" of perhaps 1¼ per aircraft, reducing their "crewmen" rate from 10.9 to to 8.7%.

It's as broad as it's long !

So from one old Meteor survivor to one old Shackleton survivor: "Aren't we the lucky ones !"

Nice story about the helpful Formosan fisherman: sad about the pictures of the Sunderlands for scrap (wouldn't they make nice little houseboats ?)

Cheers, Danny

Ormeside28
9th Jan 2015, 19:05
Thank you Danny and Warmtoast. We found out much later that the Shackleton would not ditch successfully and several broke by the engineers position when they "ditched". Four engines were much better morale wise when far out!, now back to Changi. Resident there were a Hastings Squadron, a RNZAF Squadron of Bristol Freighters and our Shackletons. Gradually we received our complement of aircraft, some good some that,we felt, other Squadrons wanted "out". One was a rogue and the chief engineer told our C.O. that if it was a horse he would shoot it!.
In February 1959 the Duke of Edinburgh visited the Far East in Britannia and 205 was given the task of escort. It was very impressive as the Royal Yacht was closely escorted by the cruiser Ceylon and the flotilla of the "C"class destroyers
In April we had a large scale exercise in the South China Sea operating from Labuan and then moving to the U.S. Navy base at Sangley Point to operate with the Americans.
In May we had another Sunderland Captain qualified on the Shackleton and I was made his co-pilot and we got on well. We came home to U.K. In June
by R.A.F.Comet. 25 hours to Lyneham . Sun came up as we left Changi, sunset at Lyneham. Route, Katunayaka, Aden, El Adem, Lyneham. Very impressive.
We took a few days leave and collected a Shackleton from Kinloss. Our route back was Malta, Aden, Katunayaka, Changi 42 hours and now BA do it in 12!
Gan was on Addu Atoll, the southern end of the Maldives and virtually on the equator. It had been a secret naval base during the Second World War and, because we were leaving Ceylon, it was being brought into service again.
Costains had the contract to construct a 3000 yard runway and accommodation to support an airfield. There had been an incursion by the Male Government and the authorities were concerned that the Soviets were interested. There was a report that a Russian cruiser was in Male, so my boss came with me, low level from Ceylon, to investigate. No cruiser, but from then on we flew from Katunayaka daily and checked all the islands, landing at Gan. The accommodation and facilities at Gan were very primitive, an atap hut was the combined mess and H.Q. The food was awful so we used to take fresh veg eggs etc each day. We had to be back at Kat by 1600 because of rainstorms there.
These patrols carried on until the end of the year when we moved in to Gan permanently. Katunayaka when the R.A.F. Had been in charge was a very well serviced base. The grass was cut, coconuts were knocked down from the trees and it was fairly safe to wander without worrying about snakes and other nasties. When we finally left it started to go back to nature. The main airfield was Ratmalana ( I think ) and Kat was allowed to decay.One nice thing about it though, when we landed a pretty girl appeared by the aircraft with a tray of tea!
My Captain left for home in October59 and I was given the crew.

Brian 48nav
9th Jan 2015, 19:46
Sorry those two names mean nothing to me - I had a quick look at an old Retired List on my bookshelf no F Harris but a W Porter retired in 1961 aged 38.


At one time at LATCC ( London Air Traffic Control Centre ) there were 3 of us who had flown with Abe Lincoln, Frank Leeming as a nav on Sunderlands, Bob Trott a Siggie on Shacks and myself a nav on Herc.


Abe became a Wing Pilot on Hercs at Lyneham having become a Spec' Aircrew Sqn Ldr in '72, he then retired during the big clear out in '76 following the massive cuts made by Labour to the transport fleet, and went back to New Zealand.


About 20 years later I was in W H Smiths in Blandford and heard this familiar voice talking to the checkout lady; 'Crikey' I thought, ' That's Abe Lincoln'. I went over and said hello and was regaled with ' My favourite navigator ' Gosh I felt so humble as I thought how could he remember me?


NZ hadn't worked out for Abe and after his mother died he decided to return to UK. He lived in a flat in Blandford and spent most of his time restoring an American WW2 casevac aircraft ( Stinson ? ), that he had brought from NZ, at Henstridge airfield. Chugalug will remember the Hensridge X Roads from the old standard low-level route.


A few more years went by and I saw a photo' of Abe, in a local freebie paper, alongside his aeroplane that was about ready for its first flight since restoral. I went down to Henstridge on my bike ( about 10 miles away ) and found his aeroplane in a hangar but no Abe. A couple of ground engs told me the best time to catch him was on a Thursday, so a week or so later when another ex-30 captain ( Ron Jeffrey ) was staying with us we went down to see him. Again no sign of Abe but the same guys told us that Abe had had to postpone the first flight as he had a hospital appointment to investigate a stomach problem.


We said tell him we were here and wish him well. A few days later I had a call to say Abe had died under the knife - he had cancer! They asked if I could organise a flypast of a Herc during his funeral. Well it was about 30 years since I had left the RAF but I did leave a message with 30 Sqn's Flt Cdr Ops to call me. I then had a further call from the Eng' at Henstridge to say that Abe's will had been read and that there was to be no-one at his funeral and no 'celebration or honour of his life in any way' was to be made.


Typical of the man, no sentiment or nostalgia at all. I flew with him a lot and he always expected nothing but 100% from his crew and I have remained proud to this day that I believe he had faith and confidence in me as his nav'.

ricardian
10th Jan 2015, 11:47
Can't find a Dambuster thread so posting on here. Interesting auction (http://www.northantstelegraph.co.uk/news/top-stories/dambusters-bombsight-and-bouncing-bomb-items-for-auction-in-northamptonshire-1-6512758)coming up on 20 Jan, items include original Dambuster bombsight

harrym
11th Jan 2015, 14:29
In the middle of the dry season, and situated on the same low ridge as Mingaladon further south, Hmawbi was a dusty little airfield with a 2,000 yd runway, some decrepit tents and bashas and not much else; indeed, nothing much seemed to going on either as we soon found out after our mid-Feb 1946 arrival, our first off-base flight in early March to an MU at Cawnpore to collect some new engines in exchange for old. Staging through Dum Dum in both directions, soon after departure on the return flight the aircraft batteries started to boil, necessitating a swift return before the fumes became overpowering (they lived under the flight deck floor, but accessible only from outside). Oxygen? - I don't think the system was charged as we never operated much above 8,000 ft, and anyway I don't recall any masks!

Our only other flight in March was passenger to Hong Kong to collect an aircraft that had to be ferried empty back to Hmawbi, no payload allowed. I have no recollection as to the why of this restriction, but the trip itself was worthwhile on two counts: we would get a look at our squadron's new home to be (although the 'when' was still uncertain), while a change of scene to something far more civilised than rural Burma was a real bonus - plus the usual night stop at Saigon both ways. Standing behind the pilots on the run in to Kai Tak was enlightening to say the least, with the peaks of many rocky islands disappearing into a solid 800ft or less of overcast, while first sight of the final approach to RW13 could only be described as hair raising – see the accompanying (or soon to appear) airfield chart of this the original Kai Tak, which makes the later post-1958 one with its long runway, many radio aids, chequer boards etc look positively benign by comparison (a fuller description appears later in this narrative).

There followed several weeks of boredom when, aside from one brief training flight and several (airborne) compass swings, for us there was no flying at all (can't recall how an airborne swing was carried out, perhaps by clever use of a sextant in place of an external compass?). Time was passed in various forms of idleness such as reading, cards, games of chess or suchlike, with occasional visits to a 'restaurant' run by an enterprising Indian offering little more than egg & chips but nevertheless a welcome change from the endless McConachie's (tinned meat & veg) that was our usual fare. For me additional if unexpected relief was provided by finding an old school friend as o/c an airfield maintenance party of West African troops based at one end of the runway; having his own transport, regular visits to a large reservoir down the Rangoon road became possible, where we could swim in clean and reasonably cool water. There was another bright spot about this time when my promotion to Warrant Officer came through – most assuredly not on merit for the wartime system of time promotion for aircrew was still in force, but the pay rise was no less welcome!

At last word came for the squadron to move to Hong Kong at the end of the month; not before time, as the odd early season shower had shown us that our tents, survivors of the previous year's wet season, were unlikely to withstand another; thus on the 28th April '46 our crew found ourselves part of a group of several aircraft heading east, not in formation as such but rather of the 'same way, same day' variety towards a Saigon night stop – several nights for us in fact, as our bird developed some electrical problem that caused two aborted departures before finally setting off on the longish (six or so hours) to Hong Kong.

Normal procedure, then as now, was to make a straight-in approach, but this being my first arrival I requested a circuit first so as to have a good look at what seemed a rather daunting prospect – how to achieve a safe arrival on the runway in use, the dreaded 13 with its 30 degree descending turn before lining up almost at ground level; so this is a convenient point for some comments on this most unique of international airports, which had to serve unchanged until its successor was completed over ten years later. Reference to the airfield landing chart, which will closely follow this post courtesy of Fareastdriver, is advisable – as always!

The rather alarming spot heights immediately north of the field will immediately attract attention, the two highest being the formidable crag of Lion Rock at top left (and thus just over half a mile from the RW13 threshold) and the even higher peak NE of RW07/25. Take-off was permissible solely on RW13 or 25, the latter only used when there was an excessive tail component on 13 while landings could be performed in either direction on 13/31, or (again only occasionally) on 07.

But first things first: since there was no question of an instrument approach to any runway, in conditions of poor vis and/or a low base it was necessary to enter the harbour area while maintaining VMC or something like it through either the south west or south east gaps separating Hong Kong island from Kowloon, having first carried out an NDB approach of sorts using the beacons on either Cheung Chau (west) or Waglan island (east). If on 13, one aimed for Stonecutters' island and then headed towards Lion Rock keeping it slightly to the left and descending so as to cross the low ridge that sloped downwards towards Kowloon, aiming to start a 30 (or so) degree bank right turn to pick up the runway centre line at a height of a few hundred feet with (by now) no more than a trickle of power on. This approach was, in normal conditions, the most demanding of the three but probably because of this it called up one's best efforts and I recall no accidents - during my time, at any rate; in later years, when larger aircraft came into service, there were one or two incidents but they don't belong here. Note that the runway extension over the public highway (traffic light controlled) was for take off use only, the landing threshold being about 200 ft in.
Landing on 31 was less of a nail-biter, especially for one's passengers, but even so it was not possible to line up properly until the last mile or less due to the headland that can be seen on the chart; so one aimed for the small shipyard situated in the marshy inlet just west of this obstruction, turning to line up as it passed beneath the nose; and it was important to get one's height right, as a low level go-around on this runway could be between tricky and impossible given the high ground at the other end. RW07 was only ever used for landing when wind conditions ruled out use of 13/31, and here there was no question of any overshoot – see the chart!

As for take-off, the normally permissible directions were 13 or 25, the latter only used when wind made it unavoidable as initial climb-out was over rising ground that was covered in mainly residential buildings; so, inevitably, there were occasions when one either accepted a tailwind on 13 or stayed on the deck.* This was of course long before the days of ODMs, BCARs and suchlike, so departure could be a slightly hairy process as one rapidly approached the sea wall end of the runway while still glued firmly to the ground – an experience (or sight) that became even more heart-stopping with the later advent of Super Connies & suchlike, not to mention the dreaded Hastings. Given that the runway was unusually wide at 200ft, it was possible to gain a few more precious yards by taking off at a diagonal although any advantage thus gained was I think more of moral value than serving any practical purpose!

The next (and final) instalment will contain some details of various operations, and of life in general, up to my return to UK for demob in Oct '46.


* In fact departures using 31 were very occasionally attempted when wind conditions ruled out any other runway, but it could be a dangerous business; indeed I witnessed one of our aircraft lose control and crash into a ravine shortly after taking off from this runway, following loss control in the turbulence downwind of Lion Rock. It was (and probably still is) policy that all serviceable aircraft should evacuate before any storm's arrival, but unfortunately this accident involved a scheduled passenger-carrying flight. True, strong NW winds from an approaching typhoon had ruled out use of any other runaway, but the flight should only have been attempted (if at all) with an empty aircraft.

caiman27
11th Jan 2015, 15:49
* In fact departures using 31 were very occasionally attempted when wind conditions ruled out any other runway, but it could be a dangerous business; indeed I witnessed one of our aircraft lose control and crash into a ravine shortly after taking off from this runway, following loss control in the turbulence downwind of Lion Rock. It was (and probably still is) policy that all serviceable aircraft should evacuate before any storm's arrival, but unfortunately this accident involved a scheduled passenger-carrying flight. True, strong NW winds from an approaching typhoon had ruled out use of any other runaway, but the flight should only have been attempted (if at all) with an empty aircraft.

Possibly this one on 25 September 1946: ASN Aircraft accident Douglas C-47B-25-DK Dakota C.4 KN414 Hong Kong-Kai Tak International Airport (HKG) (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19460925-0)

"The C-47 departed Hong Kong runway 31, climbing to a height of 700-800 feet. At that point the airplane lost control and crashed. The Dakota possibly stalled after encountering turbulence from the foothills." All 19 crew and passengers died.

harrym
11th Jan 2015, 17:09
Yes caiman27, that's the one. Subsequent to the accident (and despite it) all of 110 Sdn's* Daks evacuated to Saigon, using RW31 for take-off and getting away safely by dint of turning sharp left immediately on becoming airborne - unlike KN414 which, being a scheduled flight carrying payload, was arguably less manoeuvreable than those following which were more or less empty. In the end, by a tragic irony the expected typhoon failed to materialise.

I had been due to travel on that aircraft on the first stage of my journey home; furthermore, I had experienced a similar escape a couple of years before and was have a third one nine years later, so have often wondered if I have (most undeservedly) a guardian angel somewhere - whatever, I am most certainly a very fortunate person.

* A final note to avoid any confusion: readers may recall that our squadron was 96 when it moved to Hong Kong, but shortly after arrival (for reasons never explained) our number plate was changed to 110.

Fareastdriver
11th Jan 2015, 19:12
http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/KaiTak-old_zps3d96e1b7.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fareastdriver/media/KaiTak-old_zps3d96e1b7.jpg.html)

I was detached up to Kai Tak in 1969 from 110 Sqn, Seletar and the airfield, as such, was completely different. The new runway pushing out to Kowloon bay and the old east/west runway was part of the civil ramp with the outline of a 747 painted on it for planning purposes. At the top of Lion Rock north of the airfield was the radar unit and one of the controllers, having finished his shift on a claggy day, was getting into his car when a Japan Airlines 707 went through the car park.

On the western end of the New Territories was a miltary exercise area and one day the Royal Navy launched an assault from a carrier. Unfortunately they miscounted the headlands and deposited an entire Marine Commando in the Peoples Republic of China. Luckily the mistake was realised in good time and they were recovered before Hong Kong was invaded in retaliation.

I was there, in Shenzhen, during the handover in 1997. In fact the PLA helicopter units that moved into Sek Kong took off from my operating base. There were more than 50,000 PLA troops stationed along the Shenzhen coast to dissuade any Chinese nationals that may have thought that they had a right to go into Hong Kong. The situation did not materialise but they were ready for it.

At that period hotels were incredibly cheap because there were no tourists. They must have thought that the PLA were going to bayonet people in the streets. In fact, nothing changed apart from the fact the young ladies from Oz, NZ, and the UK weren't allowed to work in Hong Kong so we lost all of our best barmaids.

Danny42C
11th Jan 2015, 21:51
harrym,

What a fearsome picture of the approaches to Kai Tak you paint ! But in the matter of runways available, I may be able to trump you. As I understand it, you had the option of 13 or 25 for take-off, and for landings 13 and 31 (and occasionally 07). You were lucky !

At Cannanore I had just 28 (approx) for take-off (around 3,000 ft) and 10 for landing (upwind, downwind, crosswind or whatever :* ) - winds were light in the dry-weather season).

Missed Approach Procedure ? (wasn't any !). Abandon Take-off ? (just hope you could stop before going over the cliff !). We made out all right, but there were some hairy moments. :eek:

A Dak got in and out a couple of times in December '45, with the (Army) CinC and his guests on a hunting party, but I was up a Kashmiri mountain at the time. Shortly before I went away, we had a Mosquito Mk.16 and a Thunderbolt II on loan for a few weeks, and they managed all right, too. :ok:

Congratulations on your two years wartime survival, which entitled you to the "two dogs fighting" on your wristband. Must tell you sometime of the time when I was two weeks overdue for my Crown, but never did get it (or the money !) Still rankles. :(

Keep the stories coming (and what happened after it was All Over ?)

Cheers, Danny.

Fionn101
12th Jan 2015, 15:14
@Blind Pew ,
Next time I am in Skerries I will call in for sure,

Might I invite you to join us for a low level tour of Dublin on the 24th?

Thanks to the folks over in the Private flying forum I'm running a few Aviation related day trips and it would be an honour to have you and your stories with us for the day. I'll drop you a P.M. with the details (all free of course).

Rgds,
Fionn

Pom Pax
12th Jan 2015, 17:18
Funny how when you are 19 the reverse seems true.
Thanks Brian 48nav for doing a bit of research. Bill Porter in charge of our course seemed to be much older than the 15 year age difference.
Fred Harris retired about April '58, he was quite a character and considered any thing that could fly faster than a Sunderland to be inheritably dangerous, so much so that he refused the offer a Vampire flight to experience jet travel. One evening when he was my instructor on a Rebeca babs detail, he started beating the nav. table like a demented dervish. I looked askingly at him and he flipped my intercom switch to radio compass for me to be deafened by a Gene Kruppa drum solo. That isn't the only memory of that detail, the procedure was to go out to Bembridge turn and come back to Thorney on the eureka bit followed by the babs procedure and repeat for 2 hours or more. However as the evening progressed the turning point became Newport, Ventnor even St Catherine's Point and the rate of turn decreased more and more. Eventually Fred enquired of our sergeant pilot what was going on to be told "They say there's a nudist colony down here somewhere and I'm going to find it".

harrym
12th Jan 2015, 17:24
Pse enlighten me Danny as to location of Cannanore - sounds like somewhere on the NW frontier and not dissimilar to Dhala in the Aden protectorate, about which a small memory may be found below.


During a regular visit to Aden with the Transport Command Examining Unit, in addition to my Beverley commitments I had been ordered to categorise the Twin Pioneer squadron commander. Having no Twin Pin experience whatever I was not over-happy with this situation, but consoled myself with the knowledge that since he already held a "B" category he was therefore presumably fairly competent.

And so it proved. The circuit work was an eye-opener, and included a backwards flight demonstration achieved by flying at minimum airspeed (something absurd like 35 knots) into a strong headwind at circuit height. Opportunities for route checks were limited to a choice of up-country strips so, never having been to Dhala, I decided to see it from an aircraft for which restricted field length held no terrors.

Checking in at the appointed hour, I was advised that my presence would render the aircraft overweight. An easy solution was found by giving the navigator an afternoon off, the Captain saying (fairly truthfully) that the TP knew its way without human assistance. In view of the circumstances I raised no objection, being well aware that in this theatre rules had to be bent more than occasionally if the job were to get done, and recalled an occasion six months before when I had expressed surprise on boarding an engines-running Bev and found two of the oil pressure gauges reading zero. On my remarking this to the captain (Tony Pearson, the wingco flying no less), he pointed out that if they were forced to await spares from UK at least half the fleet would be grounded; besides, oil pressure must be OK or the engines would surely stop, a logic with which I was forced to agree.

The Twin Pin CO had of course been to Dhala countless times before, so following a very short transit we were soon on the slightly alarming final approach toward that forbidding rock face at the runway’s far end; offloading of the cargo was a fairly swift process, so we were soon back inside. Now the Twin Pioneer had a bang-start system, with a rotating magazine holding about half a dozen cartridges positioned on the cabin partition above and behind the captain's head. Following firing-up of the first engine the magazine had to be rotated, this achieved by the pilot reaching behind with his right hand and pulling on a sort of lavatory chain arrangement. No problem with the starboard engine, but subsequent pulling of the chain resulted only in a string of curses for apparently the magazine had failed to index properly. A quick investigation revealed it to be immovable; "feel like staying the night here?" I was asked, "not much I can do about this, and it's too late to get help from Khormaksar". Having heard lurid tales of small men with long knives who reputedly lurked unseen thereabouts, I enquired what his local knowledge might suggest. "There is a way out", he replied," but highly unofficial and definitely not approved of even in Aden". Saying I had been party to the breaking of a few rules already, I intimated that one more sin would make no difference to me.

"Stay here, and press the booster coil button when I give you the sign"; saying which, he exited the aircraft with a large coil of rope round his shoulder in the manner of a hangman off to a job. Finding some steps lying around, he gave one end of the rope several turns round the port propeller boss and walked off to the side, hailing the inevitable solitary Arab squatting on a nearby rock: ‘...hey, Ali, come and give us a hand’. Receiving his sign, I pressed the button while he and his companion hauled vigorously on the rope, the engine burst into life, and with a wave to Ali he came back inside. In no time at all we were off again, carrying out a mail drop somewhere en route. The actual disgorging of the bags fell to me, but at this distance in time I recall little about the process other than getting covered in dust; I rather think the bags were ejected through a hatch in the floor. All in all, the whole trip was completely and utterly different from the Shiny Fleet way of things that was then my usual lot; not just a window on a different way of life, but also an interlude that much increased my respect for those to whom it was routine.

------------------

As for my current series on SA Asia, any continuation beyond the next and final instalment would be somewhat OT; on the other hand I suppose one could argue that, having qualified during WW2, any further flight experiences could possibly be recounted here on the basis that they were a continuation of my training - for, as we all know, one never stops learning!

But be warned - any such continuation would not be a continuous narrative as heretofore, but rather a disjointed collection of what (hopefully) might be some of the more interesting episodes and experiences in my later career (such as it was!).

Danny42C
12th Jan 2015, 18:38
harrym,

I've heard of this before (but never seen it). My version involved a Dak, a rope and a L/Rover: but the idea was the same ! (worked, too).

Cannanore.

Far from the NW Frontier and the Great Game, I'm afraid ! The tale starts P.152, my Post #3036 et seq.

More Thoughts on Warrant Officers.

Came across this (to Chugalug) on my search for the above :

"I fear that the privilege of being addressed in a polite and gentlemany manner was resticted to the "Lord's Anointed" who entered via the impressive portals of the RAF College, Cranwell".

"We "brutal and licentious soldiery", on the other hand, had to be addressed in the manner to which (it was assumed) we had been accustomed. It was par for the course: we let it go over our heads".

"As for Warrant Officers, it was amazing the amount of venom and pure contempt that they could pack into a simple "Sir". We tried to return it with interest as "Mister" Smith, but it was a feeble rejoinder in most cases. (As a matter of interest, we, when we were training in the U.S. Arnold Scheme, although only LACs, were addressed by all U.S. Enlisted Men as "Mister" in view of our pretended status of "Aviation Cadet". The Master Sergeant was, however, every bit as skilled in conveying the maximum of derision into the words)".

Wasn't there a Cadet Drill Sergeant at Sandhurst who put it in a nutshell: "I call you Sir, and you call me Sir. The difference is: you will mean it !"

And when (as regularly happened in my time) an officer was receiving flying instruction from a SNCO, you addressed your Instructor as "Sir", in recognition of his status as Captain of the aircraft.

Danny.

Fareastdriver
12th Jan 2015, 19:23
Your story about the engine oil pressure gauges reminds me of a characteristic the Puma HC1 helicopter sometimes had in the early days.

The engine fire detectors were a series of bi-metallic switches that would close when the engine bay temperature reached a certain level. Helicopters do not have the luxury of a constant flow of air though the engine bay so sometimes it gets very hot. In a downwind the situation can arise where the recirculating air can cause the temperature to rise sufficiently to illuminate the fire warning light even though there is not a fire and so it was with this aircraft.

I had a VIP on board; a staff officer of Air Rank who had come to see how we operated in Northern Ireland. He seemed incredibly keen as he had done all his weapon training and arrived looking like Rambo. It seemed a shame to put him on a milk run so I strapped him into my jump seat between we two pilots and we punched off down south to Armagh.

We were going to do a changeover shuttle between Bessbrook and Crossmaglen. The latter was right in the middle of the Republican area of Ulster and was a hotbed for the IRA. We took off from Bessbrook with a compliment of squaddies and I explained to him that we had a two hundred foot ceiling in this area because of SAM 7s and small arms. I also pointed out that we were weaving around the topography and forestry for the same reason. All this at 145 knots.

The Army post in Crossmaglen was in the police station on the north-eastern corner of the Shinty ground. The prevailing, south westerly wind was blowing and as it was unwise to approach over the town itself it meant a downwind approach and landing across the Shinty field. The Puma had no trouble with this so I flared off the speed and plonked it onto the landing pad. The crewman opened the doors and we started a high speed passenger changeover.

That’s when both fire lights came on.

The reaction of my co-pilot and myself was similar, a resigned grunt, but our Air Officer went ballistic. He was punched me on the shoulder and frantically pointing at the fire lights. I tried to reassure him but he was having nothing of it. He had obviously been in an environment where if the light isn’t put out in ten seconds you eject. Eventually I had to remind him that I was the captain, I knew what was going on with my aircraft and would he please shut up.

Or words to that effect.

It worked either because he understood my reasoning or he wasn’t expecting to be addressed that way by a Flight Lieutenant. I was fireproof; I had said ‘Sir’ twice.

The doors were then closed and the crewman cleared us to go. In the hover, half turn into wind and take off across the Shinty field. Halfway across the field both engine fire warning lights, as expected, faded out.

He was very good about it. He apologised for trying to tell me what to do and accepted wholeheartedly the correction that I had given him. I was quite happy. He had learned more about how we operated than any series of lectures of briefings could teach him.

Flash2001
12th Jan 2015, 19:51
Danny

The "Sir" aphorism.

Normally attributed to RSM Tibby Brittain SWB and Coldstream Guards (I think).

After an excellent landing etc...

Chugalug2
12th Jan 2015, 20:46
harrym, disjoint at your leisure, sir. Your logic re learning throughout life is impeccable and given the cast iron case that you share with Danny, that you gained your brevet in WWII, no-one can gainsay it. Your willingness as a 'trapper', to do in Rome as the Romans do, does you great credit. Would that all were as accommodating! Wing at Changi decided that SOPs were conspicuous by their absence in supply dropping sorties in Borneo. They further decided that they would carry out such a detachment themselves, sticking rigidly to laid down procedure, and then have us follow suit. You can, of course, guess what's coming next!

Some of the DZs were right up on the border with Indonesia, and so it was that after the good and the great returned to Changi, the replacement crew, drawn from the not so good and the lowly, found the border to be conveniently marked by colourful SEAC chutes that Wing had dropped into the jungle canopy there. The Indonesians, to their great credit, left them undisturbed despite the fact that they were now theirs. No more was said about SOPs and we just carried on dropping supplies onto the various DZs by whatever means that worked!

Your airfield plate for Kai Tak is both fascinating and fearsome, as Danny says! Suddenly the later brand new north/south runway built to the west of it seems tame and fluffy, a mere bagatelle! It did not seem that way though on my first visit there in a Hastings. I was a very new and very raw co-pilot. The captain by comparison was the highly experienced, respected, and much renowned Jack Huntington. We started the approach to the west of Victoria Island as you describe, supposedly homing in on the NDB at Stone Cutters Island. The weather was foul, socked in by the dreaded Crachin:-
crachin : A Dictionary of Weather - oi (http://oxfordindex.oup.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780199541447.013.2285)

There was a cb sitting over Victoria which our 'clockwork' GEC radio compass presumably found far more compelling than the Stone Cutters NDB. In a brief period of improved visibility through the clattering wipers we suddenly spotted lights in front when they should have been below, and we were obviously heading for rising ground! Captain Jack issued one of his select Yorkshire expletives, did a 180 there and then, and told the sig to tell ATC that we were heading back south towards the South China Sea, contrary to the complex MAP that called for continuing to Stone Cutters regardless. A vital lesson for my young and eager brain that, like you, sometimes the book is for throwing straight out of the window!

Union Jack
12th Jan 2015, 21:32
Wasn't there a Cadet Drill Sergeant at Sandhurst who put it in a nutshell: "I call you Sir, and you call me Sir. The difference is: you will mean it !" - Danny

The dark blue convention is that there 69 different ways of saying "Sir", ranging from the Admiral saying to the Flag Captain, "Will you take the flagship to sea now, Sir" to the three badge (= 12 years undetected crime) Able Seaman saying "Aye, aye, Cur" to the Acting Sub Lieutenant (= Pilot Officer) who has just detailed him off for some highly undesirable duty....:uhoh:

Jack

Danny42C
15th Jan 2015, 21:52
(Copied from another of my Posts on another Thread)

My eye was caught by this link:

(Extract D.Tel. 9.1.15).

"The pair have said that one of their proudest moments to date involved helping to foil a rocket (RPG ?) attack on their base at Kandahar airfield in 2010".

"There was a high threat and the base was expecting an imminent attack after some men were spotted in a nearby ditch, setting up to fire a rocket (RPG ?) at their accommodation block".

"They took the aircraft out to 15 miles from their position in the ditch and came down to low level, approaching at more than 500mph and as close to the Operational Low Flying minimum of 100 feet as possible, passing directly over them before heading into a steep climb".

"The rocket crew immediately scarpered in a truck and the pair felt they had made a tangible difference to protect their colleagues".

“The intention is to always use the minimum force required to provide the effect needed by the guys on the ground".

Am I missing something here ? This was in 2010, and there was a war going on in Afghanistan (as we have 453 good reasons to remember). This is the enemy, and he is making ready to kill you (or some of your comrades) if he can. You are airborne in one of the RAF's most powerful weapons. You have a 27mm cannon.

You buzz him off (as I used to shift a flock of goats off my strip before landing).
So that he can come back later and try again ?

I am a simple soul. Can someone please explain this to me (after all, my war was 70 years ago, and things change).

Danny.

Afterthought 1: I have my grandfather's India General Service Medal (with a clasp for Kandahar !) Nothing changes !

Afterthought 2: Radio a day or two ago reports that the Afghan Premier has appointed a Taliban General as Governer of the Helmand Province (If true, you couldn't invent it). :ugh: D.

Fareastdriver
16th Jan 2015, 13:41
You cannot shot them Danny. You would have a load of British litigation lawyers out there looking for their families so that they can make a killing sueing the MOD.

Danny42C
16th Jan 2015, 23:04
Fareastdriver,

Many a true word spoken in jest ! But this was the natural consequence of the pernicious "Courageous Restraint" doctrine. (....“The intention is to always use the minimum force required to provide the effect needed by the guys on the ground"...)

Ref: <Britain's top general in Afghanistan admits 'courageous restraint ...
www.telegraph.co.uk/.../afghanistan/.../Britains-top-general-in-Afghanistan-admits-courageous-restraint-must-change.html‎ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/.../afghanistan/.../Britains-top-general-in-Afghanistan-admits-courageous-restraint-must-change.html‎)>

This in turn stemmed from the notion of "half-fighting" a war which crept in some time after WW2, and was put into practice in the Falklands with the declaration of the 200-mile "Exclusion Zone". Intended to reduce the possibility of "collateral" attack on neutral shipping or aviation, it was later used to pillory as a "war crime" the sinking of the "Belgrano" by the "Conqueror". (Even at the time, her Captain, with the "Belgrano" in his sights and in torpedo range, still had to check with Northwood for permission to fire !) What would one of Nelson's Captains have done ? Union Jack ?

Churchill said "...in Victory, Magnanimity..." (but you have to win first !) What he would have said about this carry-on I shudder to think. Or as Shakespeare put it:

"Beware of entrance to a quarrel, but being in,
Bear it that the opposéd may beware of Thee".

Having said all that, as our pair were tramping along at 500 mph (about 250 yd/sec), they would have a max of about two seconds to acquire target, draw bead and fire. Much better off with a Hurricane IIC at 120 kts (four 20mms can make quite a mess of a pick-up truck and the "rocket", and send the operators to Paradise). Can't remember now, but think they had the same internal tankage as the Spit (85 Imp galls), with that and the Merlin running for max endurance, we could hang about for 4½ hours. Much cheaper to run, too.

Cheers, Danny.

smujsmith
16th Jan 2015, 23:09
As the thread proceeds in its stately, and informative way, we should pause to acknowledge the birth date of Cliffnemo, and perhaps spend a second thinking about everything that goes before, and what he started all those posts ago. RIP Cliffnemo, and thank you for giving us all this crewroom of all crewrooms.

Smudge

Union Jack
16th Jan 2015, 23:41
What would one of Nelson's Captains have done? - Danny

I'm flattered to be asked my opinion, especially when, as so thoughtfully highlighted by Smudge, we acknowledge the birth of Cliff, the founding father of this illustrious thread.

That said, and to give my view on what Nelson would have wanted from what he called his "Band of Brothers", I feel that I can do no better than to quote the words of the mid Victorian Prime Minister, Lord Palmerston, namely:

"If I want a thing done well in a distant part of the world; if I require a man with a good head, a good heart, lots of pluck and plenty of common-sense - I always send for a Captain in the Royal Navy".

What Nelson would have wanted, was what Palmerston wanted, and Baroness Thatcher would have wanted too, and that's exactly what she got in the form of Commander (later Captain) Chris Wreford-Brown DSO Royal Navy.

Jack

Fareastdriver
17th Jan 2015, 09:21
I am posting this on behalf of harrym as he apparantly has not the facilities to post pictures.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/img191_zpsbc3df778.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fareastdriver/media/img191_zpsbc3df778.jpg.html)

The result of a somewhat misjudged approach and landing at Kai Tak in the early 1950s, not as bad as it looks however as everybody got out with only an odd minor scratch or contusion. Never saw the official inquiry report, but wind could hardly have been blamed as there was virtually none – look at the smoke; in fact the airport fire service had pretty well extinguished the blaze, when the town brigade turned up and washed off all the foam by using water! Note the high ground behind the accident scene, which had to be crossed immediately prior to landing on RW13.
Incidentally, the half in-half out state of the tail wheel would suggest this took the initial impact

JW411
17th Jan 2015, 13:53
http://www.frpilot.com/Dad/JAZ.jpg

From my book about 53 Sqn:

Hastings TG564 was destroyed by fire in a landing accident at Kai Tak airport in Hong Kong at 0815 on 27 July (1953). Because of the surrounding terrain, the approach to the old runway at Kai Tak was particularly difficult and windshear was often present. The starboard undercarriage of the aircraft, flown by F/L S E Judd, struck a store hut some 200 yards short of the threshold. The aircraft came to rest just off the right side of the runway. It caught fire and was burnt out, partly assisted by the Kowloon Fire Brigade which used water on a fire that was being fuelled by petrol and oil! F/L Sid Judd was seriously injured.

Danny42C
17th Jan 2015, 23:00
Found this interesting snippet on PPRuNe Forums: :=


<LI class=g>News for fight between pilot and engineer chennai (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=fight+between+pilot+and+engineer+chennai&hl=en-GB&gbv=2&prmd=ivns&source=univ&tbm=nws&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=3_S6VKqMOtPbat-1gZAP&ved=0CBQQqAI) #

Air India flight from delayed by 3 hours after FIGHT breaks out in cockpit (http://www.google.co.uk/url?url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-2914426/Air-India-flight-Chennai-Paris-delayed-three-hours-FIGHT-breaks-cockpit-pilot-engineer.html&rct=j&frm=1&q=&esrc=s&sa=U&ei=3_S6VKqMOtPbat-1gZAP&ved=0CBYQqQIwAA&usg=AFQjCNFimTEccR5fctcmR3EBHzQK1oyZFw) Daily Mail - 13 hours ago
An Air India flight from Chennai to Paris was delayed by three hours earlier ... a
fight broke out in the cockpit between the pilot and an engineer.


Note #: Madras to Old India Hands.

D.

harrym
18th Jan 2015, 17:34
Many thanks Danny for referring me to your #3036 re Cannanore, sounds like one of the better postings to be had in SE Asia!

Chugalug your experience with Jack H sounds truly alarming but no doubt he took the right decision, not helped at all by that truly dreadful piece of kit the GEC Radio Compass - not a patch on the old SCR269, but then that was American and their radio equipment was invariably superior to ours. So much so indeed that the York was fitted with the 269, presumably because at that time even the GEC bodge-up was not available.

This same GEC thing was fitted to the Hastings, and I recall trying to use it when flying radio range down the US west coast; quite hopeless, as it generated such a strong background tone of its own that it made the range's twilight zone appear of infinite extent - not a good thing in an area containing significant terrain!

Never heard of the word crachin although only too familiar with that nasty condition it describes, very prevalent especially during the March-April period - I remember it well.

Re Kai Tak, you refer to the new (i.e. post 1958) runway as being north-south, but surely it was on the same 31/13 bearing as the old one - pointing directly at the harbour's SE entrance?

Fareastdriver
18th Jan 2015, 20:56
harrym. No, the runway was new build, totally different. Here is a link to the original plans.

https://honghongheritage.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/temp-kaitak008_jpg.jpg

Chugalug2
18th Jan 2015, 21:39
Excellent map, FED, and very interesting, particularly the "Hills to be demolished" just in front of the Chequer Board (conspicuous by its absence?)! Harrym is quite right though to take me to task, for I was being unforgivably loose with my language to call the new 13/31 R/W 'north/south'.

Our perambulation had me wandering through Wiki yet again (where else?), first on the RAF Kai Tak page here:-
RAF Kai Tak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Kai_Tak)

At the bottom of the page is an item entitled 'Lists' with a link to Grade 1 Buildings:-
List of Grade I historic buildings in Hong Kong - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Grade_I_historic_buildings_in_Hong_Kong)

There we find that 51 Kwun Tong Rd is the preserved RAF Kai Tak Officers Mess, now occupied by the Hong Kong Baptist University. Go to Google Maps;-
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/51+Kwun+Tong+Rd,+Ngau+Tau+Kok,+Hong+Kong/@22.331633,114.210358,21z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x340406c94103138f:0x56ba667c6f50e442

and drag the litle yellow man to the road in front of the indicated building and, ...well the years roll by and its time for happy hour down town, just as soon as we've placed our orders at Samtanis!
I find it really rather touching that the HK authorities saw fit to preserve such a colonial relic instead of grinding it into dust.

ancientaviator62
19th Jan 2015, 07:12
Chugalug2,
ah Samtanis ! During my time in FEAF you did not need happy hour if you went to Samtanis. You would be offered a San Mig whilst you discussed your order and then another. This was on the grounds that the more you drank the bigger the order !
If we needed a 'Happy Hour' then the Gold Bar on Nathan Road was our first port of call. Happy days.

Brian 48nav
19th Jan 2015, 09:03
Do you remember the lines of 'gold' chain that were draped inside the window? We all seemed to love pulling bits of chain off as we sat there and on each subsequent visit there seemed to be less and less.


Chugalug2


Love your Jolly Jack story - I have a vague memory that he was from Fleetwood in Lancs and that the family ran a trawling business there, to which he may have returned when he left the mob in '73.

Chugalug2
19th Jan 2015, 11:51
B48N, yes I seem to remember the same background to Jolly Jack. He once recounted how he started out by delivering Hudsons across the pond, via the usual legs BW1, Keflavik, Prestwick, and they once overshot Scotland due to unforecast tailwinds, being between layers that stymied the Nav's chances to get a fix. They landed at RAF Carnaby (I think) with barely moist tanks, having descended in desperation below SA, found themselves over the sea and did a 180, having reasoned that it was probably the North Sea!

I seem to remember that he was later on Spitfires, flying over Burma. At some point he was awarded the DFM, later on being commissioned, made substantive Flg Off wef 30.07.1958, and Flt Lt wef 30.7.1964. He earned the Queen's Commendation for Valuable Services in the Air 1.1.1963, and the AFC in 12.6.1965. all this gained from Googling the London Gazette. Other than that nothing (particularly no obits, I'm glad to say). It would be interesting to hear of others recollections and, particularly in the context of this thread, of his training to the award of wings.

Jack, if you are reading this, how about it? I'm proud to count myself as one of your apprentices. If you haven't written your story yet, then there's no time like the present!

Oh, PS; Samtanis is alive and well still, though no signs of golden chains! Seems you finally did for them, B48N!
House of Exclusive Bespoke Tailoring © (http://www.samtani.com/ashsamtani/Home.html)

ancientaviator62
19th Jan 2015, 12:27
I was on 24 Sqn at the time of the famous Ponza incident with Jack H route checking a squadron pilot. No doubt someone else may recall the details better than I.

Brian 48nav
19th Jan 2015, 12:27
The chains were in a bar that was on the left going down Nathan Road from the Shamrock Hotel, a bit before the shops.


I had a look in the 2006 Retired List in the local library a few months ago and pretty sure Jack was no longer listed, but considering he probably never willingly took aerobic exercise in his life and IIRC smoked and liked a drink, I think he did make a good age.


When I was attached to JATE at Abingdon 72'/73' for 5 months Jack was with the trappers there and used to come over for a chat with Mike Nash. He showed me a picture of him in front of his Spitfire ( c1945 ) and explained,' Ee I was a f**king handsome b*stard then' - I nearly choked on my coffee!


He also flew the Vengeance over Burma. I wonder when he converted to transport flying and was he a QFI?

Brian 48nav
19th Jan 2015, 12:29
Our posts overlapped - the poor Captain in the Ponza story was on 48 Hercs, 67' - 69'/70'.

ancientaviator62
19th Jan 2015, 13:30
Brian,
the Ponza incident must have been sometime in 1967 operating out of Colerne as I seem to recall. There were TWO captains of the same name on 24 at the time. The 'other' one was fed up of being wrongly 'credited' for the Ponza div business.

harrym
19th Jan 2015, 17:11
Chugalug2: good to know the old Kai Tak officers mess survives. Built on a hillside about 50 ft above sea level it was well positioned for watching activity, the RW31 threshold being only a short distance away. I have happy memories of sitting on the lawn, San Mig in hand, watching (critically!) early evening arrivals of various airlines, a few of which could be a bit interesting while when 13 was in use some of the takeoffs looked a bit marginal performance-wise.

Good old Samtani, I still have one or two of his shirts. Although it's almost 35 years since I bought anything from them, they still send an annual Christmas card!

Fareastdriver
19th Jan 2015, 18:26
When I ws there in 1969 to get from the officers mess to the airfield via the guardroom involved crossing the dual carriageway high speed commuting road. The was a gap in the crash barriers and you took your life in your hands crossing it. Most livers in with cars prefered to drive on, go up half a mile,and come back on the guardroom side. Vice versa when returning.

Chugalug2
21st Jan 2015, 09:08
Just opposite No 51 Kuan Tong Rd is of course No 50 Kuan Tong Rd, across a "high speed busy commuting road". It is now the Caritas Family Crisis Support Centre but used to serve a rather difference purpose, as FED, harrym, and other readers might recall...

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x199/chugalug2/Caritas_Family_Crisis_Support_Centre2_zpsd338674f.jpg

Danny42C
21st Jan 2015, 22:52
Chugalug (#6683),

Regarding "Jack H",
Your: "I seem to remember that he was later on Spitfires, flying over Burma".

and

Brian 48nav,

Your: "He also flew the Vengeance over Burma" (all VVs over Burma in WWII would be operational).

This is a bit of a puzzle. As far as I recall, the first RAF Spitfires came out to India in late '43. I thought they were Mk.VIIIs, but someone on this Thread corrected me a long time ago, saying that they were tropicalised Mk.Vs. No matter, they ended the dominance of the Oscars. From mid '44, some of the IAF Vengeance Sqdns (including my No.8) converted to Mk.XIVs, but I do not think the RAF operated any of that Mark out there in the war. Will have a trawl in BHARAT RAKSHAK when I have the time.

AFAIK, that would be the only way a VV-Spitfire change could be managed, but I thought the IAF got rid of all the old British VV pilots (who would all be officers in any case) before they got their Mk.XIVs. My old friend, Niel Ker (sadly RIP) stayed with them on the XIVs, but he was IAF then. Spitfire-VV transition was easy, many of the '42/'43 intake out there had done Spitfire OTUs (as I had).

If someone likes to PM me with your chap's full name, I'll have a look in my P.C. Smith's "Vengeance" and cudgel my memory to see if anything turns up.

Meanwhile, you might like to have have a look at:
"Aviation History and Nostalgia">"Spitfire Mk.I (Type 300)" [whatever that may mean] for a 5 min You Tube of chap hugely enjoying himself in one. As possibly the last man alive who trained (75 hrs) on that Mark in WWII, will put in my comments on it there soon.

Danny.

Chugalug2
22nd Jan 2015, 08:19
Danny, thanks for the Spitfire Mk1 link. What a beautiful and rare beast! Interesting to see it in full phony war sand/spinach/black/white finish (including yellow gas detecting panels). A quick change to the sky undersides for the BoB was as eminently sensible as the famous in service switch from variable pitch to constant speed propellers, as told here:-

Spitfire Mk 1 Performance - Propellers - Hornchurch June 1940 (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?83873-Spitfire-Mk-1-Performance-Propellers-Hornchurch-June-1940)

The Mk1 YouTube video that Danny referred to is here:-
http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/554991-spitfire-mk-i-type-300-a.html

Danny, re Jack Huntington, I had never heard of him flying the Vengeance but perhaps B48N can shed some light on that.

Brian 48nav
22nd Jan 2015, 09:48
I didn't get the info' direct from Jack re him flying the VV - in John F Hamlin's book ' Flat Out' the history of 30 Sqn on pg 258 he mentions, in a paragraph reporting Jack celebrating 10,000hrs in October '69, that he had flown VVs and Spitfires in WW2 in the Arakan front. Incidentally it shows 30 having been in Burma in 44/5 with Hurricanes and then Thunderbolts.


Re the Spitfire connection, the photo Jack himself showed me in '73 showed him in KD in front of his Spitfire. IIRC he said it was just after the war had finished.


Our man was Flt Lt J R Huntington AFC DFM Born 9/1/23 Commd 30/7/59 Retd 30/9/73.

Danny42C
22nd Jan 2015, 15:56
Chugalug and Brian 48nav,

Checked "Vengeance's" comprehensive Index - nothing, and the name means nothing to me.

But that is not conclusive: Peter C. Smith deals very largely with 82 Sqdn, and there were three other RAF VV Sqdns, together with two IAF ones.

But, as I understand, our man was not commissioned until after the war, he would certainly not have been posted to an IAF Sqdn, which only had officer pilots.

So the trace is cold at my end, I'm afraid.

YLSNED - I'm surprised that (somewhere) somebody said that he was flying Mark II Spits out there. Could he have meant Mark 22s (or Mk XXIIs if you like). The IAF had Mk.XIVs in late '44 !

And I've always thought that the two-blade Mk.1s had all been replaced by three-blade props before the BoB. Not so, it seems.

So the odd patch on the wing is a gas-detector ! (why didn't I know that ?)

Cheers, Danny.

MPN11
22nd Jan 2015, 16:36
So the odd patch on the wing is a gas-detector ! (why didn't I know that ?)


I'm shocked. Deeply shocked. :(

All that foreign service must have obscured the fact that the UK was under constant threat from CBW from the filthy Nazis. Even harmless little TMs had a gas panel behind the rear cockpit. And that's why everyone [even WSC] had to carry their gas mask around all the time, in its little rectangular carry-case.

Sheesh, if the bombing wasn't bad enough ... I wonder when that regulation ceased? Google time!

After the Blitz had ended, carrying around a gas mask became less and less important in the mind of the public.http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/gas_masks.htm

Which Blitz, one asked? There was so much propaganda about getting the Public on-side one wonders when people got bored with it all?

Chugalug2
22nd Jan 2015, 17:06
Discussion about gas detector panels on the aviation forum here, Danny:-
Gas Detector Panels (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?112033-Gas-Detector-Panels)

which links to a contemporary picture of armourers reloading a Spitfire with the yellow diamond behind the inboard port Browning.
http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/media/historical1939-1945/images/14948/fa-17754s-jpg.jpg

To be honest I only picked up on this when my Airfix Calender wallpaper for November 2014 featured a Hurricane with a square GD panel near the port wingtip. Latest one here BTW:-
Downloads - Calendar Wallpapers Airfix (http://www.airfix.com/downloads/view/index/cat/39/)

Danny42C
23rd Jan 2015, 01:11
MPN11,

So the general public in the Uk, who soon forgot about the remote possibility of a gas attack, but continued to cart their gasmasks around (a) for fear of being picked up by an officious Bobby and (b) from force of habit and (c) because they were so useful for carting around bits 'n bobs, were protected by gas-warning panels (but I don't remember hearing about or seeing any such thing at home between '39 and '42).

Whereas we, in faraway places with queer-sounding names, who were handling the stuff and had it slopping around all day, had no gas-masks and had no idea that gas sensor paint even existed.

Which makes perfect wartime RAF sense, you see. Don't see what the Blitz had to do with it, but in any case much more dangerous stuff was coming down then in the shape of bombs large and small (including Land Mines [about the size of a pillarbox], which were their equivalent of our "cookies", and could take out two or three whole streets at a time).

And then there were the enthusiastic AA gunners, blazing away and doing civlian morale no end of good (but achieving little else), not reckoning that What Goes Up Comes Down in the shape of quite nasty, jagged bits of shell casing which had reached terminal velocity on the way down (these were avidly collected by schoolboys on their way to school next morning).

Chugalug,

Another fine link you've got me into ! Will have a good look tomorrow.

Cheers, both, Danny

Fareastdriver
23rd Jan 2015, 09:43
A couple of years after the war when I was five or so my uncle, a slater, used to take me around to help with roof repairs. Most of these were cracked slates due to returning AA fragments. Getting the ladders up and over the eaves was a long and fiddly job so my contribution was to assess where the cracked slates were.

Method one was to throw me into the loft where I would stumble amongst the joists and the water tanks assessing where the daylight was invading. In some streets the loft went all the way down the road, there being no partition walls.

Method two was where he knocked on the door of the house opposite and I would be dispatched up to the front bedroom to look along the suspect pitch. Occasionally I would observe from the rear bedroom on the next street.

Some times the front bed was strangely warm.

I would be up the top passing slates and on one occasion we were one short. Instead of sending me off to get another one my uncle leaned over to the next roof, ripped a slate off, and used it with the statement that they would be calling him up next week.

Molemot
23rd Jan 2015, 15:32
The Great South American River Company tells me that they are estimating delivery of my copy by the end of the month. Having read all of Regle's contributions here, I'm looking forward to having his story in one coherent volume.....

MPN11
23rd Jan 2015, 17:26
I suppose I should vaguely apologise for my late Father, who as a TA gunner spent the first year or two of WW2 helping hose AAA shells into the air over London and the SouthEast with little regard as to where the fragments would land. But then there was a War on, of course.

In his Soldier's PayBook he kept a [surely illegal] loose-leaf record of where he'd been in those years. Which I still have - and so do you, now. Apologies for the faint scan of his pencil writing. I can re-do if anyone cares deeply.

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm468/atco5473/PPRuNe%20ATC/HHG%20where%201.jpg (http://s319.photobucket.com/user/atco5473/media/PPRuNe%20ATC/HHG%20where%201.jpg.html)

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm468/atco5473/PPRuNe%20ATC/HHG%20where%202.jpg (http://s319.photobucket.com/user/atco5473/media/PPRuNe%20ATC/HHG%20where%202.jpg.html)

pzu
23rd Jan 2015, 19:02
From Night Flak to Hijack: It's a Small World by Captain Reginald Levy DFC

The Great South American River Company tells me that they are estimating delivery of my copy by the end of the month. Having read all of Regle's contributions here, I'm looking forward to having his story in one coherent volume.

They also have it on KINDLE

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

Danny42C
23rd Jan 2015, 23:45
Chugalug,

Following the links you gave, and all the connected links they gave, I ended knowing a lot more about anti-gas measures now than ever I knew in the war. I vaguely recall that ARP wardens were supposed to rush about on their bikes, spinning their rattles and shouting "Gas, Gas !" through megaphones, and that we should all then don our gas-masks and (in the Services) put on our gas-capes, but that was about all. Oh, and if you were caught in a shower of gas, Wash it Off with Copious Quantities of Water (dive into the nearest Static Water Tank ?) - remember those ?

As for the tops of all pillar-boxes being painted a yellow which turned pink on contact with Mustard, I can't for the life of me ever seeing such a thing.

Fareastdriver,

Bit worried about your: "loft where I would stumble amongst the joists". Hope you weren't a big lad - or you were very careful where you put your boots (otherwise you might've made an undignified and uninvited arrival through a bedroom ceiling !)

Molemot,

Hard to think of any editor making a better job of his story than Reg himself has done here, but I suppose more detail has been added. I've asked my daughter to get it up for me on her Kindle. Thank you for the "steer".

MPN11,

It may have been against Regulations for your Father to have kept such a detailed record of his deployments (and all credit to him for doing so), but I don't think German Intelligence could learn any more from them than they already knew - almost any town in UK of some size would have AA defences. (And didn't all our [RAF issue] Logbooks have a "Record of Service" on the next-to-last page - mine has unit names and numbers, places and dates, for the whole of my flying career.

Cheers to you all, Danny.

Danny42C
25th Jan 2015, 20:18
"Meanwhile, you might like to have have a look at my earlier:

"Aviation History and Nostalgia">"Spitfire Mk.I (Type 300)" [whatever that may mean] for a 5 min You Tube of chap hugely enjoying himself in one."

And Chugalug's #6092, "The Mk1 YouTube video that Danny referred to is here:- :

"Spitfire Mk.I (Type 300) (http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/554991-spitfire-mk-i-type-300-a.html)"

because mauld has put in six more fine You Tubes of the Spitftre.

Danny.


"

Chugalug2
26th Jan 2015, 09:45
Danny, my turn now to thank you for a link. What a feast! One is left in open mouthed admiration for everyone that was involved in bringing these beautiful aircraft to full airworthy condition again. Thousands of hours of dedicated restoration by skilled and experienced professionals (and the bottomless pit of money needed to do so!) lay behind these amazing sights and sounds. I congratulate them all.

No doubt there are those who will cavil at some detail of the final finish, be it of colour, pattern, markings, etc. I say that because it is the same in railway preservation. We might have restored a Victorian carriage which had spent far more time being somebody's home rather than as a public transport vehicle and, having repaired and restored it from the bottom sides upwards to full running condition again, be told that the font of the sign writing, or the style of the interior scumbling, was inappropriate for some theoretical reason. My reply echo's Mrs Thatcher's; rejoice at that news and congratulate all that have been involved in saving these rare artifacts of our national heritage!

mmitch
26th Jan 2015, 09:58
Chugalug2. They are known in the Historic aviation world as the 'Roundel police' The usual reply is 'If you spend £1M restoring a Spitfire you can paint it how you like!'
mmitch.

airborne_artist
26th Jan 2015, 19:19
I ordered Regle's book and it arrived today as I was leaving for work.

I have tomorrow off ;)

Fareastdriver
26th Jan 2015, 19:49
Mine arrived as well. It's nice to see what he looks like even if it was a long time ago.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/001_zpsfeevs24b.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fareastdriver/media/001_zpsfeevs24b.jpg.html)

smujsmith
26th Jan 2015, 21:25
Despite owning a kindle, I've ordered my print copy at "big river stores" and eagerly await its delivery. Having spent some time (years)following this masterpiece of threads, there's no way I will accept an electronic copy. I need to get the reading goggles out, a glass of decent wine, and hopefully a journey again.

Smudge:ok:

Geriaviator
27th Jan 2015, 09:20
Senior non-techies united: we have Kindles too, but Reg's book must be hard copy for reading with reverence, not downloaded for dipping in and out of an electronic soup. Mine's due on Friday and I see there's only four in stock. Pray keep a space beside your armchair, smuj, and we'll share that bottle of wine.

smujsmith
27th Jan 2015, 09:44
Geriaviatir,

My copy is due for delivery tomorrow too. The wine is selected, just a matter of waiting now. Enjoy the read, I expect it will bring back some memories from the very first posts of this thread.

Smudge:ok:

ancientaviator62
27th Jan 2015, 09:52
Chugalug2,
ref those that 'cavil'. More than once we were told by the 'experten' that our (ex French Army (ALAT) Supercub) 'Auster' had the roundels painted on incorrectly !

andyl999
28th Jan 2015, 12:52
Gentlemen, enjoy Reg's book, from what I have seen (reading a chapter every night) Alex, Reg's Grandson has done excellent job!

dogle
31st Jan 2015, 19:27
Conversation in the Crewroom having lapsed for a moment, whilst our aircrew ponder a while, and quietly contemplate the stove ...

.... like many others I am very much looking forward to reading regle's autobiography on paper (Kindle?? .. harrrumph! - never, Reg is one to be savoured with deference) with a few glasses of something appropriate to the occasion.

It is now a just a couple of years since fredjhh's daughter mentioned here, following his departure on his final sortie a few months earlier:

"My greatest fear is that I shall throw away something of value (sentimental/historical) from his great collection of war memorabilia. My father wrote his memoirs down which we are having self published. I'm not sure if anyone would be interested in reading this. We don't intend making profit from it but in order to cover costs it will possibly cost around £20 (it is no small tome...277 pages and A4 size)."

I am in no doubt that we are, en masse, 'interested', especially in reading about Fred's stirring exploits in occupied Europe after he had been shot down, which he was always too modest to mention here.

Searching of PPRuNe, and dragging the Big River, has not given me any lead to publication ... I have today been so bold as to despatch a PM to his daughter asking whether things are happening but, in view of the long interval, I am not too hopeful of a response. The mention of page numbers and format, however, suggests that intended publication was fairly imminent even two years ago - does anyone have any information on this?

Fareastdriver
31st Jan 2015, 20:53
Try this link.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Night-Flak-Hijack-Small-World/dp/075096104X/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1422741113&sr=1-2-fkmr1&keyw

Danny42C
1st Feb 2015, 23:06
Heads Up !

"In search of Bomber Command" (ricardian)

If you haven't seen this film before, you must see it now ! (it complements perfectly the much earlier "Target for Tonight"; it is the only colour film of RAF bomber ops in WWII; the USAAC equivalent (from which some of the opening shots have been taken) was the (first, genuine : "[I]Memphis Belle").

Reflect, before you pass by without a second glance, that on average half the young men appearing in it would be dead by the war's end - and the rest are almost all dead now.

As to Kindle v. Paperback: none of us has any difficulty in reading PPRuNe on our laptops etc. How is this different from reading on Kindle ?

Danny.

taxydual
1st Feb 2015, 23:53
The link

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/555701-search-bomber-command.html

Geriaviator
4th Feb 2015, 17:23
As to Kindle v. Paperback: none of us has any difficulty in reading PPRuNe on our laptops etc. How is this different from reading on Kindle ? Danny, for me, it's a question of reading screen or old-fashioned paper. This old-timer prefers the feel of a proper book, it's like a silver service steak dinner compared to a Big Mac.

However, it may go further than personal preference. Last week The Times reported that screens are dealt with by one area of the brain (striatus) while learning activities are dealt with by the hippocampus which handles long-term memory. I summarise but that's the general idea, never mind the gritty eyes etc from long-term squinting.

It seems that learning from screen may be transient, learning from books may last longer. It certainly makes me wonder about the attention span of so many youngsters who appear to be fused into their iphones.

Recent events in aviation also make me wonder. Last time I flew followed a 24-year layoff, yet I found the flying as easy as riding a bicycle. Not so the wonders of the glass cockpit in which the familiar panel appears on a screen. With so many knobs and permutations to play with I fear some may forget to fly the aeroplane.

MPN11
4th Feb 2015, 18:55
Geriaviator ... that's scary. So my current Kindle reading of Marlborough and Blenheim will fade away, as the morning mist?

Time to stop reading PPRuNe and Flyertalk and HotTottie, perhaps? :cool:

smujsmith
4th Feb 2015, 19:11
Just finished reading Regle's book, and what a smashing tome it is. Having been a follower of this thread for some time, the main gist is not new, what makes the book so enjoyable is its collation of Reg's life from childhood to retirement. Very well done by the editor in chief. In fact, such an "across the board" piece that my wife begins her own foray tonight into the life of a very significant man. I estimate she will have read it in a couple of weeks, I will relay her thoughts. Now, when does Danny's epistle get published, I'm sure there are more bits and bobs in there! You publish it Danny, I will buy it, like Regle's, a positive addition to anyone's library.

Smudge:ok:

pzu
4th Feb 2015, 23:53
Spritely World War Two Lancaster bomber pilot given new role (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/local/northyorkshire/northallerton/11770559.Spritely_World_War_Two_Lancaster_bomber_pilot_given _new_role/)

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

FantomZorbin
5th Feb 2015, 08:14
... will fade away, as the morning mist

Just as well for us that AP3024, JSP318 & 318A, et al were all on paper then :}

MPN11
5th Feb 2015, 09:33
... and, of course, AP3357, Manual of Ground Controlled Approach ;)

As an LEO in both Terminal and Area, it was amazing how much information we used to be able to hold in our heads for instant recall. Although I was personally helped by having been the editor of all 10 MATO Unit SOPs, and MATO ASIs, for a couple of years - I guess writing it made it easier to remember the details.

Although ... a certain West Country sqn ldr managed almost total recall. Phrases such as "If you look at MATO ASIs, Chapter 4, paragraph 27a, you might discover that you are wrong" :D

FantomZorbin
5th Feb 2015, 10:36
... managed almost total recall

Impressive and infuriating all at the same time! :{

But it certainly gave us an aspiration to aim for!!

Danny42C
5th Feb 2015, 18:34
Geriaviator,

Much food for thought in the Times article you quote. It is interesting to learn that the hippocampus is responsible for long-term memory; what I want to know is: what part carries the can for short-term memory (mine seems to have gone AWOL some time ago).

So you were able to grab the twig again after a 24-year interval - congratulations ! Seriously, tell us all about it. I'd always heard that: "it's like riding a bike - you never forget", but there's precious little chance of my riding a bike now, never mind waving "chocks away" after 60 years ! Still, I think I'd get on all right once I got into the cockpit, it's just the small problems of getting there and getting in that would present insuperable difficulties. Eheu, fugaces !

And, like you, I hark back to the primitive days when we were content with stick, rudder and throttle. Nowadays things are different. I remember, some time ago, a Thread about the most recent batch of FJ graduates from Valley (all four of them !) Included was a shot of an AVM in a Hawk II (simulator ?) cockpit. Looking over his left shoulder, I peered at the panel as a hog might stare at a piano. Nothing was familiar except a dial which might have been an Artificial Horizon - that was all.

I've been following the sad Air Asia Indonesian story on the "Rumours and News" Forum and am appalled by the complexity and the extent to which on board computers and automatic systems seem almost to have edged the pilots out of the control loop. I know that they are designed to stop even the most stupid of humans from endangering the aircraft, but a computer cannot think "outside the box" (and there are times when someone must). And the parallels with the AF447 case are all too striking.

In our day, we had a rudder bar, a rudder and two pieces of string between (and the same for the other two control surfaces). Now I've just read somewhere that the B737 (the DC-3 of the 21st Century) has no rudder control once hydraulic power to the activator has failed. Not even our bits of string. This can't be true, surely ? What they're saying is: "This aircraft cannot be flown manually if all systems fail". Hope I'm wrong.

Now, books v. Kindle. Chacun à son gôut ! But there comes a time when your bookshelves are full, all available flat surfaces are covered with piles of books, and you have to start on the floor !

With that sobering thought,

Cheers, Danny.

MPN11
5th Feb 2015, 19:06
FantomZorbin ... no doubt about it, Mangel-Worzel had a frighteningly unusual mind. I remember him coming into the crew-room at Eastern Radar when we were playing Bridge [as we did, when off-console] with some comment along the lines of "Those under training should be making better use of their time - there's a copy of Air Staff Instructions on that bookshelf, and several Unit Standard Operating Procedures". He would never use abbreviations!

He probably turned me into the bitch of an LEO on my 2nd tour, as Senior Supervisor and OC Training Sqn, where I had the misfortune to have to sack two new sqn ldrs posted in as Sups. When the 3rd one came along, Jim P [then SOpsO and the other LEO] said "I'll check this one out." His call.

We were supposed to have 2 sqn ldrs on a 2-watch system. In over 2 years we never achieved that, as 'the system' kept sending us newly-trained Area sqn ldrs who hadn't got a chance in hell of coping with a Unit that handled 50% of MATO's total traffic in highly-congested and intensive airspace. I felt sorry for the guys who were thrown in at the deep end, but there was no way you could let them swim in that shark-infested pool.

harrym
6th Feb 2015, 17:20
For a change, this part contains nothing directly related to aviation but instead describes our very different way of life following arrival in Hong Kong in early May 1946.


After weeks of living in dusty, fly-blown tents the change in lifestyle offered by 96 Sqdn's transfer to HK was profound, and most welcome into the bargain. The Sergeants' mess was situated in several blocks of flats off Argyle Street, a main thoroughfare directly in line with RW25 and thus leading to Nathan Road and the centre of Kowloon, my crew particularly fortunate in being allocated a flat in the nearby Eu Gardens, a modern 2-storey art-deco block possessing proper plumbing including running h&c plus a working fridge – our quality of life thus instantly taking a distinct upturn, as compared with anything offered by the Burmese ulu!

Indeed, for whatever reason Hong Kong appeared to be recovering from its wartime travails far quicker than Singapore, and was in another world as compared with dumps such as Rangoon. Restaurants of various types proliferated, serving quality fare at reasonable prices with cuisine ranging from Oriental to Russian, while the whole place even then gave more than a hint of the general 'buzz' that so typified it in later years. However the Tsim Sha Tsui central area was then much less commercialised than now, to the extent that zones such as Cameron Road and its environs were almost 100% residential with a mixture of villas, small blocks of flats and buildings such as the 1920s style Arlington Hotel (taken over by the RAF for use as a transit facility, its site to be later occupied by the Park Hotel); indeed, many properties even had small front gardens, property values obviously being much lower in those days! Across the harbour (as ever, courtesy of the Star Ferry) the central area of Victoria with its solid banking houses, mercantile buildings, colonial-style supreme court and other government offices all gave a distinct air of 'the Empire is here to stay', while the antiquated, top-heavy tramcars (incredibly still running today) provided a somewhat nostalgic link with home.

Behind all this arose the well-wooded slopes of Victoria Peak and conjoined summits, their virgin surface yet unsullied by the numerous concrete monoliths of today, while the few buildings that perched on or near the top in the vicinity of the Peak Tramway terminus were bare, empty ruins. Given that the city below appeared to be unmarked by war the contrast was initially difficult to understand, but in fact had a simple explanation: during the gap between cessation of hostilities and re-occupation by our own forces the Japs had virtually relinquished any attempt at keeping public order, and so the local populace had stripped them bare of everything – roofing, plumbing, wiring, furniture & fittings and, most desirable of all, the timber, there being a desperate shortage of all these items.

At ground level the most obvious deficiency for our daily living was lack of most forms of public transport. With the MTR long in the future the few buses, always grossly overloaded and with engine covers removed to aid cooling, groaned along belching clouds of smoke while taxis were almost non-existent, so either one hitched a ride off any military vehicle that came in sight or relied on human power - not rickshaws (too slow), but either a tricycle or plain bike. The trikes carried two in front on a seat between the wheels and were none too safe, while as for the bike one perched on a pillion seat with the rider sweating away in front; neither were a comfortable mode of travel, but had the advantage of being relatively cheap. Which leads to the topic of money, which in Hong Kong at that time seemed to involve the use of more paper than anywhere else, a situation exacerbated by there being no coinage whatever - only notes, yes even a note for 1c! Furthermore, denominations of $10 or above were issued by no less than three commercial banks rather than the government so inevitably, given an exchange rate of something like $16HK to the £, one's few pockets became somewhat stuffed with bumf.

Those familiar with the region will know this was the height of the hot season with its drenching humidity and frequent heavy rain, yet there were sufficient spells of reasonable weather to allow the only sensible form of exercise in such a climate – swimming. Although there was a shortage of wheeled transport in the civil world, the services seemed to have enough of the inevitable 3-tonners to spare for regular runs to selected sites – usually either a sandy beach somewhere to the west of Kowloon, or another spot with a diving platform over the hills behind the airfield. Undefiled by the litter and detritus of later years, and almost totally devoid of other humans whether Euro or local, they offered a pleasant swim in clean water, even if one did have to keep an eye open for the occasional sea snake.

Us SNCOs being accommodated two or more miles distant from the airfield we normally attended Squadron HQ only when required for duty, a sensible policy deserving of wider use. This HQ was initially in a somewhat ramshackle wooden building that was later obliterated by a typhoon (more on this event later) with its contents, including the log books of around 95% of our aircrew, scattered to the four winds; however, fearing such a calamity, I had previously disregarded what I considered a pointless and stupid order that all log books should be kept therein and was thus spared having to 'guesstimate' my flying record when fabricating a new one.

However it was not long before one drawback to my recent elevation in rank became apparent, that of being eligible for the chore of Orderly Officer. Aside from the usual duties associated with this office, on certain days it involved having to pay the civilian cleaning staff - not on base, but for some strange reason in a corrugated iron building on the other side of the main road. So, having collected a Chinese clerk and the necessary funds, the pair of us would trudge through a vegetable garden to reach this strange place that reputedly housed a few reclusive (but never seen) nuns, where from a bare table I doled out money as called out by the clerk. The recipients were female, all clad in the pyjama-like dress worn by working Chinese women of those days, but what mainly struck me was the miserably low pay that was their lot – usually in the order of $15HK (barely £1) for what was presumably a week's work – no wonder they all looked so glum. Then there was the curious incident of the enraged senior naval officer, who blasted me down the phone because he had found a local using his private loo; exactly what I was supposed to do about it was not clear, as I was on the RAF side of the airfield (with no transport) and he on the other, non-RAF side.

So altogether life was on a different level as compared to our previous existence, especially to the unaccustomed but much-appreciated availability of adequate supplies of beer – the San Mig brewery having (praise be) survived the war unharmed!



In the next & final post I will attempt to describe some aspects of operating what was in effect a sort of rather threadbare military airline covering a very large area using aircraft barely adequate for the job; however, as this has yet to be committed to paper or any other media, it may not appear for a few weeks yet.

MPN11
6th Feb 2015, 18:53
OMG, paying the Civilian Staff ... the nightmare of being Orderly Officer at Tengah.

Accounts issued, meticulously, the correct number of notes and coins according to their formula [in the days before spreadsheets] - everyone's pay, to the $/c, and then combined in a bloody great bag. And one was paying c. 200 people!

So if one carelessly gave Mr Wong 2 x $5 instead of 1 x $10, you were doomed ... you ran out of change. I learned the hard way, and subsequently always carried out that duty with wallet/pockets full of small bills and coins to correct any errors upstream!

Danny42C
6th Feb 2015, 19:58
"OMG, paying the ciivilian Staff" !

Seconded, MPN11 ! As I've related some time ago, I had the same problem paying my chaps in Cannanore, and in an earlier, pre-war existence, it was my lot to have to pay out hundreds of small sums which included 2/- and 1/- coins nearly every time. "Coinage" really meant something in those days, and all calculated without the aid of computers.

harrym,

Thanks for another enthralling Post ! You seem to have hit the jackpot this time and no mistake. But, as you and I and many others found, elevation to the peerage brought with it all manner of irksome duties, among them being "Officer i/c of Something or Other" (usually the worst job of the lot), which your seniors had made vacant for you by some crafty reshuffling prior to your arrival in the Mess.

At HK$ 16/£, it was much the same as my Rs14/£, and, like you, we had a tiny Rs1 note, but as we paid our chaps to the nearest Rs5 below it wasn't too difficult.

Looking back, the discrepancy between the incomes of the Sahib (or Tuan ?) and the locals takes the breath away. A (newly qualified) Indian doctor or teacher would be content with Rs20 per month: as a Sgt/Pilot I was on Rs280 p.m. and as a F/0 Rs600 (All Right for Some !)

Looking forward to your next instalment,

Cheers, Danny.

Danny42C
6th Feb 2015, 22:02
Smudge (your #6718),

Thank you for the kind words about my tale, which I've been happy to put on these Pages over the past three years, and I am content to continue in this way.

Cheers, Danny.

harrym
7th Feb 2015, 16:52
Yes Danny, you are right about the 'irksome duties' - the Orderley Officer job seemed to come rather more often for us of warrant rank, than should have been the case on a pro rata basis! An additional nuisance was that our mess being off base, we had to lodge for the night on station in a sort of broom cupboard containing little else than a bed (uncomfortable) and a telephone.

Fareastdriver
7th Feb 2015, 20:28
Rubbish!!!

Being Orderly Officer was a bonus. In the dark days of Bomber Command in the 60s the ration arrangements were simple. The truck went to the Sergeant's Mess, the Airmen's Mess, the Operations Canteen and the rest was thrown at the Officers. As Orderly Officer one had to inspect the Airmens meals accompanied by the Orderly Sergeant with his red sash.

One of the privileges of an Orderly Officer was, if he so desired, was to partake in the substance offered to the airmen. In my case there was no argument. A table would be laid and would I sit down to a meal that would have been incomprehensible in the Officers Mess.

I could never understand why, after months of junk being offered to us, the same chefs, with the same raw materials, could produce absolute magic at the Summer Ball.

Fantome
8th Feb 2015, 21:15
Thank you for the kind words about my tale, which I've been happy to put on these pages, over the last three years, and I am content to continue in this way.

Cheers, Danny. . . . to the everlasting benefit, enlightenment and entertainment of we, your devoted readers. May the quill stay well inked for many a day. For your 'constant reader' remains enthralled.

Dorothy Parker was another with the writer's gift -

http://mentalfloss.com/sites/default/files/styles/article_640x430/public/parker_2.jpg




Had Dorothy Parker been a supercentenarian, she would have been 120 today, and she surely would have had some great observations about life in 2013. Many of her quotes are utterly timeless.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FantomZorbin ... no doubt about it, Mangel-Worzel had a frighteningly unusual mind. I remember him coming into the crew-room at Eastern Radar when we were playing Bridge [as we did, when off-console] with some comment along the lines of "Those under training should be making better use of their time - there's a copy of Air Staff Instructions on that bookshelf, and several Unit Standard Operating Procedures". He would never use abbreviations!


Oh that there were more who shunned the blessed acronym.

and those annoying emicons

imagine Shakespeare dotted with them

Fantome
8th Feb 2015, 21:48
Rayner Hoff was sculptor of some distinction. The Australian War Memorial in Canberra holds many of his fine works. This one seems appropriate to this thread -


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61SD1OJXUmL._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg



And this larger work -




http://ih1.redbubble.net/image.8067049.2389/flat,550x550,075,f.jpg (http://www.redbubble.com/people/cands/works/5432389-spirit-of-sacrifice)

The inscription reads-

ALL HONOUR GIVE
TO THOSE WHO NOBLY
STRIVING NOBLY FELL
THAT WE MIGHT LIVE

ElectroVlasic
9th Feb 2015, 14:09
Re: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Night-Flak-Hijack-Small-World/dp/075096104X/ I was very happy to read Reg's original posts to this thread and now am just as happy to read his book. I am glad that those who prefer paper and those that prefer eBooks have access to this material. I will point out that those who are interested can get a free sample of the first two dozen or so pages by selecting the Kindle edition and using the "Try it free" button.

One thing I didn't recall from the original threads here was that Reg read the sports on the BBC World Service for a while. That man had an amazing set of experiences in his life.

kookabat
9th Feb 2015, 22:14
I posted something similar once, when Reg was still with us:

"Halifax skipper, airline pilot, air traffic controller, newsreader... is there anything you DIDN'T do??"

To which the great man replied,

"You ain't seen nothing yet!"

And he was right!

:ok:

Fantome
10th Feb 2015, 00:57
Padhist's post #2244 -

One amusing incident I recall from the many of those days was...The night Sgt C……. put into action his plan to take his wife up in a Prentice to see the station by night. Now, at the end of the main runway there was an old wartime bunker and it was used frequently by students and instructors during long periods of circuits and landings, they used to nip out of the aircraft, having advised Air Traffic Control, that they were clear of the ‘Peri-track ‘ and have a leak!!...Well the plan was that Mrs. Carlisle would wait behind this bunker all kitted up in flying gear and at some stage Carlisle's student would nip out and she would take his place in the aircraft, do a couple of circuits and return to effect the exchange back.....Now the best laid plans----What in fact happened was that another aircraft stopped and it's student got out, came to the bunker and was happily having his leak when he realised he was not alone!!....However thinking the other GUY was another student he continued with his enjoyment and just entered into a conversation on how the cold affected his ability to find his willy beneath all his flying clothing....Needless to say Mrs. C……. never said a word. But she did eventually get her trip, and did enjoy the sights.
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Reading this reminded me of a somewhat similar story.

There was in the RAAF in 1938 a young pilot, FLT LT Ken Ekins. He was attached to HMAS Sydney as pilot of the ship's Walrus (Seagull V in RAAF service). While in dock in Hobart the admiral of the fleet was piped aboard for a tour of inspection. As he walked up the companionway with the captain of the Sydney he could not help but see a fishing rod poking out of an open porthole. Almost apoplectic, the admiral demanded of the captain an explanation. I am sorry to say, sir, that on the other end of that fishing rod is Flight Lieutenant Ekins of the Royal Australian Air Force. He seems to have a poor attitude to naval discipline or orders. He said to one of my officers this morning, that he intended to catch the admiral a bucket of bream.


Ken Ekins, during that Hobart visit, attended a Bachelor and Spinster's ball. There he met his future wife, Eileen, a long time resident of the village of Richmond, Tasmania. After their marriage they lived for a while in married quarters on the RAAF base at Richmond, NSW. I had the story from Mrs Ekins that one night she made her way to a far corner of the aerodrome so as to wait for the Walrus with which Ken would take his bride for her first flight. This duly happened. She added to her story by saying, with a blush, that after they landed, taxied and shut down in the same spot, Ken became rather amorous. Mrs Ekins believed that their first child was conceived that night.

Both the Ekins are deceased, so if anyone queries the accuracy of this story,
I will have to say it's a FOAF (Friend of a Friend).

My daughter is presently 'going out' with a grandson of the Ekins. He had no idea about his grandfather's service in the RAAF.

Somewhere I have filed away a good photo of Ken taken in Sydney Harbour in 1938. He is sitting on the top wing of a Walrus as the Shagbat is being winched aboard a warship. I shall post it here when I find it.



1935: Seagull V , A2-2, arrives at Portsmouth for HMAS SYDNEY , seen waiting to receive it - (Photo RAN Historical).

https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6148/5935474118_4615cabf02_b.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/41311545@N05/5935474118/)

Warmtoast
10th Feb 2015, 15:39
HarryM

All this talk of Hong Kong got me scrabbling through my album for some photos of the "Checkerboard" approach, OK it was well after your sojourn there, but for those not familiar with it here's what it looked like from the cockpit in 1979.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Hong%20Kong%201979/Image5_zpswcrrsrlu.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Hong%20Kong%201979/Image4_zpskdvxvuhf.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Hong%20Kong%201979/Image3_zpshxt56r28.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Hong%20Kong%201979/Image16_zpsohl17ekw.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Hong%20Kong%201979/Image17_zpsbdoewrch.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Hong%20Kong%201979/Image7_zpsczlcq9y1.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Hong%20Kong%201979/Image6_zpsftd2qi8i.jpg



I always marvelled at the way B-747's with 100's of pax made their turn at low level to line up with the runway as here:


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Hong%20Kong%201979/Image10_zpssrdl71tw.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Hong%20Kong%201979/Image11_zps82kzjt8x.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Hong%20Kong%201979/Image12_zpsjny33zlt.jpg

harrym
10th Feb 2015, 17:27
Warmtoast - great pix, brought back many memories and thanks for posting them up; loss of the checkerboard approach has removed a unique experience from the world of aviation!

Fareastdriver
10th Feb 2015, 19:26
When I was based in Shenzhen I had to fly one of those approaches once a month to keep my rating in date. Bring a training trip we could only do it at the crack of dawn and the procedural circuit was incredibly long and high. It was a real pain in the neck and the scenario around the checkerboard was wasted.

However medivacs at night gave one a fantastic view of Hong Kong with all the lights on. Should we pick up a Chinese National from a platform we were routed low level directly across Victoria Harbour, then between Lantou and the New Territories to the Pearl River and onwards to Guangzhou. They built a bridge across to Chep Lap Kok but it didn't seem to make any difference to our transit height.

Departing from Shenzhen and crossing Hong Kong outbound you could tell when you crossed the border between China and Hong Kong. The Neons changed from all red to another series of colours.

Fantome
10th Feb 2015, 21:03
In Captain Gordon Vette's outstanding book Impact Erebus there are several pages (191 to 196) devoted to describing the day circling approach to RWY 13 at Kai Tak . The author's reason for including this passage was to counter any suggestion that the captain of the ill- fated Air New Zealand DC10 that crashed into Mount Erebus, Jim Collins, did not fly the aircraft he commanded with the greatest proficiency. Captain Collins had flown the day circling approach to RWY 13 at Kai Tak many times.

Page 191 - "The harbour circling approach to RWY 13 provides a good example of a pilot and his crew operating at peak proficiency, exploiting to the utmost their training, the aircraft's instruments and, most significantly, their response to visual stimuli."

ditto . .. . "Should this type of manoeuvring be attempted over most cities of the world, the crew would find themselves in prison. At Hong Kong, it was the only way that the airport could be used, in certain weather conditions."

This thread is not the place to open yet another discussion of the circumstances surrounding the crash of TE901 in November 1979, save
to say that for everyone interested in the subject who has not listened to the one hour seventeen minute program where an interview, towards the end, with Captain Vette and Justice Peter Mahon, who headed the commission of enquiry into the accident, it should be essential viewing. More than that, and more broadly, it is relevant for all who maintain an active and informed interest in air safety investigation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyWvOI_MD-Q

Captain Vette lives today in retirement in New Zealand. Following a major stroke he is severely handicapped, having lost his speech, among other faculties. He has found however that painting is aiding a partial recovery.

Fantome
11th Feb 2015, 03:19
FROM NIGHT FLAK TO HIJACK lobbed in the letterbox this morning. Needless to say, all pressing, extraneous jobs clambering for attention, were ignored for many hours. It would not be right, or fair, to rave too much, let alone refer to the highly quotable parts. The greatest impression of all is undoubtably that Reg Levy was blessed with a charmed life. The close shaves he survived, more often than not unscathed, give much pause for wonderment. It was the luck of the draw, again and again.

His affection for nearly every aeroplane he flew is palpable. Take the Mosquito , for instance. His conversion onto the Mossie consisted of reading the pilot's notes, then blasting off alone for a few circuits. The subsequent extensive damage that he and his nav sustained to their aircraft on low level bombing raids, and their miraculous returns home, rank close to the unbelievable.

On page 40 he mentions two Australians who served with great distinction,
Wallace Kyle and Hughie Edwards. Both were later knighted. Both served periods of office as Governors of Western Australia.

Contrary to what Reg wrote, Hughie Edwards was never 'Governor-General of Tasmania'. No one ever was, for that office has never existed.

Postscript re the Mossie. Reg says the Mosquito was developed from the DH Comet racer. That is probably debatable.

http://www.defence.gov.au/news/raafnews/editions/4409/images/08.jpg (http://www.defence.gov.au/news/raafnews/editions/4409/story08.htm)


WGCDR H. Edwards VC

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa144/jokova_photos/103Grad3-2.jpg
Air Chief Marshal Sir Wallace Kyle -
passing out parade, Halton, 1965

jeffb
11th Feb 2015, 04:30
I have been lurking on this site for several years; first discovered it at about page 65, and been reading it avidly ever since. While the original thread was on pilot training in WW2, it has seems to have evolved to most aspects of aviation during and after that period. I am therefore asking indulgence is posing some question related to my Father,s wartime service. It has only been since his passing just over a year ago that I have come into possession of his Flying logbook outlining training as Bombaimer in the RCAF and RAF. I never knew this document ever existed.
He joined the RCAF in 1942, and remained there until cessation of hostilities, demobbing as Pilot Officer. I guess he missed the service, and re-upped about 1957, starting out as LAC all over again, in electronics trade.
I am hoping I am not stepping out of line here recounting his experiences, and asking questions to others who also participated in those dark but exciting days.
Fiest was to #8 Bombing and Gunnery, Lethbridge Alt, in December 1942, flying in Battles and Bollingbrooks, flown by Service pilots. While at #8, bombing exercises B-1 to B-5 were completed on Ansons, again flown by Service Pilots. Not sure what these exercises entailed.
In February 1943 he was posted to #2 Observers School, Edmonton, for bombing training, on Ansons. It is interesting to note all the Pilots there seem to have been flown by civilian pilots.
From there it was overseas, travelling on the Louis Pasteur, to #3 AFU Bobbington. There it was exercises CE, B5, MR, B2, on Ansons. what Training would have been different from what was done in Canada.
From there, #81 OTU at Whitchurch, initially on AIt was there that it appears they Ansons, then Whitleys. It was there that it appears they crewed up. In November 1942 they were posted to #1662 Conversion Unit at Blyton, initially on Halifax them converted to Lancasters there. In December 1943 they were posted to 166 Squadron Kirmington, arriving at the height of the Battle of Berlin. They completed some 19 ops before the odds caught up and their Lanc was lost on the night of March 30, 31 1944, target Nueremberg.
I apologize for the lengthy post and hope that others can shed light on what these exercises would have entailed, thank you
Jeff

Petet
11th Feb 2015, 08:45
Jeff

I am more than happy for the thread to drift back to WWII training.

In answer to one of your questions, the AFU was to enable aircrew who had learned their trade overseas to experience UK / Europe flying conditions, such as barrage balloons, black outs, fog, varying terrains etc.

I have had a very quick look at some other Air Bomber log books to see if there is any information on the various exercises and, as a possible start point:

B2 - B4 may relate to daytime bombing (with the numbers possibly relating to a specific target)
B5 may relate to nighttime bombing
CE may relate to "Combined Exercise" (ie long distance navigation and bombing [Bullseye])
MR may relate to Map Reading

I will have another look later to see if I can find more detailed information.

If you need any information on training or the loss of the aircraft, please let me know and I will see what I can dig out for you.

Regards

Pete

Danny42C
11th Feb 2015, 21:42
jeffb,

First, welcome aboard our Prince of Threads ! (you must not apologise for your "lengthy Post"; every word may trigger off others' reminiscences; it is exactly what this Forum is all about).

In amplification of Petet's reply, I must stress the importance of his words "may" in the interpretation of mere letters and figures in the "Duty" column of your Father's Logbook.

Although all my American training entries are descriptive, the subsequent RAF (AFU plus OTU) ones carry something like "Ex 18A", which mean nothing to me now, as I have no Schedule of the Exercises. I believe this was common in all our flying (inc Nav and Bomb Aimer, etc) schools of the period. Yet someone may yet remember and be able to help you out.

(From Wiki and "World War II Today"): "A total of 95 aircraft were lost" (on the Nuremberg raid) – "at 11.9% the highest rate for Bomber Command for the whole war".

Cheers, Danny.

Petet
11th Feb 2015, 22:16
Danny

I do have a listing of the flying training exercise numbers if you ever want to decipher your log.

Regards

Pete

Fantome
11th Feb 2015, 22:24
Did 12 and 13 relate to take-offs and landings?

(They did through the 50s and 60s in flying schools throughout Australia)

Danny42C
12th Feb 2015, 02:07
Pete (your #6745),

Thanks for the offer, but I remember the List of Exercises (p118 #2341) Fred (RIP) Posted on this Thread. I would think that these numbers might have been standard for EFTS and SFTS (or Primary and Advanced Schools), but when it came to OTUs, there would need to be different exercises on each of the types involved, and the numbering system would have be unique to cater for each. The Meteor AFS at Driffield ('50) and Weston Zoyland ('54) used the same system.

Curiously, when I reached my operational VVs, we logged brief details of where we had been and what done for each training or operational sortie. But then again, post-war on 20 Sqdn, we reverted to "T 1", "R 6", "Y 6", "V 1.5", etc., as each of these would refer to one of our several routine tasks. Of these, I only remember that the figure represented the height. The only letter I can be confident about was "Y": this referred to the Spitfire runs at the Tonfanau AA range which produced the "ghost" targets for the gunners.

These entries were interspersed with non-standard items like "Formation", "Airtest" or "Army Co-op, Ty Croes" (and, on one occasion which will live long in my memory: "St Athan & Ret" [Brake Drums !] ).

Cheers, Danny,

jeffb
12th Feb 2015, 03:11
Petet, and Danny, thank you very much for your words of encouragement. I have found some details of the raid and the combat Dad was involved in, but some if it is conflicting, so any more information would be greatly appreciated. I am not sure if it would be appropriate to post on this board or via PM; either would be fine by me.
I believe it was at #81 OTU that they crewed up. I am not sure when the crews sorted themselves out into their respective crews. I understand that the RAF left everyone to decide who they would fly with rather than the more expected method of some nameless faceless entity assigning crews. Going through the logbook, I see that Dad flew almost exclusively with his eventual Skipper. Of the 24 flights in Whitleys, 21 were with his Skipper, and 1 each by other pilots. I remember Dad saying they used to watch the pilots doing circuits and taking notes to see who flew smoothly, or as he put it, flew ropey. However, when they did do their crewing up ( would it have been at the beginning or end of the course ) it was the Skipper who sought out Dad specifically to join him, then Dad introduced him to a fellow RCAF navigator; the Skipper sized him up then invited him to become a member of the crew. I am not sure how the Wireless Op was added.
Jeff

Petet
12th Feb 2015, 16:42
Jeff

As a rule of thumb (but not always) the pilot, navigator, air bomber, wireless operator and one air gunner crewed up and trained as a five-man crew on medium bombers at OTU.

Once they had completed this training they moved onto a conversion unit where they were joined by a second air gunner and the flight engineer to train as a seven-man crew on heavy bombers.

I will have a look to see what documents I have relating to the loss.

Regards

Pete