Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II

[harrym]

Thanks Geriaviator, I will endeavour to follow up on that NZ story sometime next month.

Cheers - harrym

PS Yoùr Italian is better than mine!

[roving]

Converting to Spitfires and developing skills in oblique photography occupied the Squadron for some months in Syria before flying over to Italy.

My late father, fresh from completing the No. 1 BFTS Course in Texas and the No. 2 Flying Instructors Course in Montrose, was posted to the Squadron to help with both the conversion and the photography.

The Army was initially sceptical as to whether the Squadron would be able to provide what it required, namely an accurate picture of the Germans on the ground and to reduce the risk of Italians being accidentally targeted.

Photographs of this quality (from my late father's albums, and I have uploaded a blow-up of just one part of it) persuaded the Army that the Squadron could deliver. But flying low and straight involved risk from the German defensive positions and a number of the pilots were shot down in the same way that Garland was, but not always with such a happy outcome.

[roving]

Continuing the story of 208 Squadron in Italy this from the obituary of ken Lambden on the Squadron's association website ...

A veteran of the Italian campaign in 1944, Flight Lieutenant Ken Lambden also served in Palestine after the war during the Jewish insurgency. Ken, of Bardon Hill, was born on December 31, 1923 at Micheldever Station near Andover in Hampshire where his father, Frederick, was an accounts clerk for a local farmer. Ken grew up with two elder and two younger sisters and a love of flying. He went to local schools and then won scholarships to Huish Grammar School in Taunton and then Brasenose College, Oxford where he joined the University Air Squadron. While there he enjoyed flying Tiger Moth biplanes out of Abingdon airfield but he found the privileged world of Oxford University a real eye-opener. He said one of the hardest aspects of it was coming to terms with the Oxford tradition of having a manservant, known as a 'scout'.

From Oxford he continued his training on American Harvard fighter planes in South Africa in 1943 at an airfield near Johannesburg and in 1944 flew Hurricanes and had his first solo flight in a Spitfire at Petah Tikva in what is now Israel. At 6ft 2ins, he found squeezing into the Spitfire cockpit a challenge and it was compounded by having to try to balance maps on his knees while flying. In October, 1944 he joined 208 squadron (known as the 'flying shuftis' because of their role in carrying out photo reconnaissance flights) in Florence as the Allies tried to overcome stubborn German resistance. His memories of that time were of the rain, mud and the fog of the Po valley and the empty chairs in the mess as the war took its toll among the squadron's pilots. The squadron's role was gathering photographic intelligence, so he had to fly straight and low while enemy ground troops took pot shots. The role also involved disrupting enemy supply lines, which meant strafing trains and road convoys. At the end of hostilities Ken was posted to Palestine where the British were policing Palestine during the emergence of Israel. Having survived the war, he had his closest brush with death there. He was in a warehouse where he was working with a group of WAAFs (Women's Auxiliary Air Force). The warehouse was besieged by an angry mob out for blood and Ken says he was saved by the WAAFs who used hockey sticks to beat off men trying to climb through the windows - until help finally arrived.

[Danny42C]

roving (#11254),

Wonderful stuff ! Just what this old Thread needs to revitalise it ! Keep it coming !

The details (like the WAAF - when did they turn into WRAF, btw ?) are the lifeblood of this Thread. As Kipling said: "The Female of the Species is More Deadly than the Male" (what does our Jolihokistix think of it ?)

A suggestion: Suppose we altered the title to just "Gaining an R.A.F. Pilot's Brevet", might that bring in some of the next two generations of "Drivers, Airframe" ? (of course include the WSOps [what exactly are they, and what do they do, and how did we win the war without them ?] and all who have worn the Light Blue, as before, pace the Moderators, of course ?)

EDIT: Not excluding all of the True Blue, and Khaki, of Good Will !

Throw it open !

Danny42C.

[Brian 48nav]

Yes, perhaps Chugalug has tales to tell of flying the Hastings during Confrontation, and there must be other posters who served in Malala during the Emergency - to name but two of the 'hotspots' in which the three services saw action since WW2.

[Danny42C]

Brian 48nav (#11256),

Yes, he has - and has Posted about it long ago on this Thread. Chugalug, come in !

Danny.

[roving]

The video clip in this link may be of interest to those who trained at BFTS in the USA.



https://www.dallasnews.com/news/texas/2017/09/23/air-show-helps-museum-tell-terrell-stepped-help-british-pilots-wwii

[Danny42C]

roving (#11258),

Thanks for the clip ! Ran it - Oh, to hear that glorious "Pratt & Whitney" Sound again ! All the P&W engines in the Wasp family had this sonorous tone ("Sonor Harvardorum et U/Torum", as one contributor to "TeeEmm" (?) put it long ago, for the benefit of classicists.

They all had this sonorous undertone, but the AT6A/Harvard had the aboriginal 600 hp "Wasp" - well, you can hear it on the clip. It was reckoned that the two-blade prop tips were supersonic. In contrast, the Wright "Cyclones", their arch-rivals, sounded like nut and bolts being shaken up in a barrel (I flew a few hundred hours behind a Twin Cyclone 1600 hp, and it hammered my ears out. Good engine, though.

The BFTS boys had it good. All the six BFTS were near towns (often on the town airfield) and they stayed the whole six months in one place, so were able to establish friendly relations with the local Southern Belles (all with their own convertibles, and keen to suss-out what had breezed into town), whereas we "Arnold" chaps went to three different places often hundreds of miles apart at two-month intervals, and all were Army fields with Army discipline, out in the sticks, with nowhere to go and no transport to get us there. It Wasn't Fair !

All credit to the good folk of Terrell for keeping the memory alive in their Museum, my thanks to them and to Rudy Bowling from Danny42C (ex-Arnold Scheme).

[Warmtoast]

Danny

They all had this sonorous undertone, but the AT6A/Harvard had the aboriginal 600 hp "Wasp" - well, you can hear it on the clip. It was reckoned that the two-blade prop tips were supersonic. As someone who something to do with Harvards at 5 FTS (RAF Thornhill, S. Rhodesia) in the early 1950's ISTR that this turned out to be an urban myth. The diameter of the prop (8ft?) x the 2,600 rpm round the circumference wouldn't have led to the prop tips travelling faster than sound (760 mph). However, mathematics have improved since them and I'm willing to be corrected!

...and fond memories of 21 Wasps all going at once as here!

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/Thornhill-Harvards-FootballFinal.jpg

[Chugalug2]

Danny:-
Chugalug, come in !

Danny, I'm never far from this wonderful thread, but I fear that I have exhausted the meagre contents of my threadbare bag of anecdotes and blurred pics that now lie curling at the corners in its archived depths. In any case I have always felt that its true CofG lies, as per the OP, in those desperate and dangerous years 1939-45. So I join with you in encouraging roving to tell us everything he can of those years and in particular of the very hazardous job of low level photo recce. How ironic though that having survived his war Flt Lt Ken Lambden came close to submitting to a baying mob that was only held at bay by hockey stick armed WAAFs!

As to the thread title, anyone who browses this thread will have quickly realised that it has wandered far from its very specific title, which clearly shows that it is by no means restricted by it thanks to our ever indulgent and kindly mods. My two-penneth is that it should be aviation related and principally centred on WWII. One of my great regrets is that there was a chance of German WWII veteran pilots posting here that came to nothing. They were as brave and skilled as any. I stumbled recently on an interview with Hanna Reitsch. She may have been a Nazi and admired Hitler, but what an incredibly skilled and experienced Test Pilot:-

ykre9XC0Xac

[roving]

Conquest of the Air is a 1936 documentary film on the history of aviation, until the early stages of World War II. The film features historical footage, and dramatic re-creations, of the developments of commercial and military aviation; including the early stages of technology developments in design, propulsion, and air navigation aids. The film was a London Films production, commissioned by the Air Ministry of the British Government.

The film was initially commissioned by Alexander Korda prior to the advent of World War II, and the Air Ministry saw the value in promoting Britain's contribution and leadership in aviation during this period. Some notable footage is featured of the early phases of automated flight, navigational equipment, and the transitions between civil and military developments, including heavy bombers; fast fighter aircraft; and the advent of naval aviation (aircraft carrier), plus the initial experiments with vertical rotary flight (helicopters).

An updated version was released in 1940 and released in the United States on 20 May 1940.’

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCPt8e1WG4A

The film editor, who also wrote the script for the commentary, was Peter Maurice Bezencenet, a British film editor born in 1914.

He subsequently joined the Royal Air Force: the London Gazette records that in 1942 P. M. Bezencenet (115617) was promoted to the rank of Flying Officer.

Two years later in September 1944, he was an Acting Squadron Leader and a Spitfire Recce Pilot with 208 Squadron in Italy.

Towards the end of that month he was leading another member of the Squadron during a tactical reconnaissance sortie on completion of which he told his number one to land and he then returned over the enemy area, it was thought, to strafe a train that had been seen. He did not return and no news was heard of his fate The Squadron assumed that he had been killed. *

Happily not, as his subsequent citation for his DFC records …

Distinguished Flying Cross. Acting Squadron Leader Peter Maurice BEZENCENET (115617), R.A.F.V.R., 208 Sqn. This officer has completed a very large number of sorties, including numerous successful reconnaissances over the forward battle area during these operations, Squadron Leader Bezencenet has faced heavy enemy fire with complete disregard for his own safety. Nevertheless, he has executed his missions with great skill. On one occasion, in September, 1944, whilst over the Bologna area, his aircraft sustained such damage that he was forced to abandon it Although he was badly wounded when fired upon by an enemy patrol, Squadron Leader Bezencenet succeeded in reaching the British lines. This officer has displayed outstanding keenness and has set a fine example of bravery and devotion to duty.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/36954/supplement/1069/data.pdf

He demobbed after the war but did not forget to make an appearance for the 30th anniversary celebration of 208 Squadron in 1946 when he was one of those who addressed former squadron members.

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1946/1946%20-%202254.html?search=%20BEZENCENET

And what of his movie career and life post war?

He continued to edit and direct movies, married an American heiress, her sister had married an English Count, and in 1975 he sold his country home in Buckinghamshire to the actor Sir John Mills, and moved to France with his American wife.

He died in 2003 at the age of 89.

[* sourced from the 208 Squadron Association website].

[Danny42C]

Since I issued my "cri-de-coeur" (#11242),

Chugalug (#11244 and #11261); Brian 48nav (#11245); roving (#11250) - (btw, is that Garland any relation of the F/O Garland who, with his Nav, Sgt Gray, won the RAF's first two VCs of the war in 1940 ?) Geriaviator (#11251), and Warmtoast (#11260) Lovely pics !

Yes, you are right, Chugalug, in saying:..."I have always felt that its true CofG lies, as per the OP, in those desperate and dangerous years 1939-45"... But the old boys of those days are all dead now, or so nearly dead that no more can be expected of them. Now it's down to their "heirs 'n successors", and that well is running dry, too. roving is doing a sterling job (take a bow, roving!), keeping the old flame burning, but it cannot last for ever.

Another possible solution: lay "Pilot's Brevet in WWII" to rest, and someone (NOT a greybeard !) open "Gaining a R.A.F. Pilot's Brevet Post-War" new Thread? ....... Who'll open the bowling" ? Chugalug - you flew Hastings into Gatow in the Airlift, there must be "Funny things that happened on your way to the Theatre". Think on, revered old Mentor of mine !

Also, ..."So I join with you in encouraging roving to tell us everything he can of those years and in particular of the very hazardous job of low level photo recce"... Can't think of the name, but a PR pilot was one of the most highly decorated RAF pilots of the war (Alec Guinness played the part in "Malta Story"). Disappeared on a LL trip to S. Germany in the end, they only found him and dug him up a year or two since.

And, long ago on this Thread (?) a US Colonel Baynes - Baines (?) wrote a gripping account of spending half-an-hour in broad daylight with a PR Spitfire over Berlin at 40,000 ft in 1944, to make sure he got all the photos they needed. (earned him an American DFC). Among other things, he said: "Every pilot should have the chance to fly a Spitfire once in his life" (or words to that effect). So say I.

Remembering my Middlesbrough lasses (some large and formidable), Fighter Plotters and Radar Operators (we had 70 of them on the Auxiliary FCU where I was Adj), the thought of them coming after me with hockey sticks would induce abject terror !

..."My two-penneth is that it should be aviation related and principally centred on WWII"..... Mmmn, not sure for reasons stated above. I think we've squeezed the pips out of the WWII lemon, and the youngsters just don't want to know. Too Long Ago amd Far Away, now . I suppose it was inevitable. When I was 20, the American Civil War was being fought 77 years earlier. To a young man of 20 today, the Battle of Britain was fought 77 years ago.... Time flies !

Danny.

[olympus]

Can't think of the name, but a PR pilot was one of the most highly decorated RAF pilots of the war (Alec Guinness played the part in "Malta Story"). Disappeared on a LL trip to S. Germany in the end, they only found him and dug him up a year or two since.

W/Cdr Adrian Warburton. His story is told in 'Warburton's War' by Tony Spooner.

[JW411]

I think you mean Tony Spooner.

[roving]

I have deleted my post because it duplicates those above.

[olympus]

JW411

You're right of course. My memory let me down; post amended.

[CoodaShooda]

and the youngsters just don't want to know.

In recent years in Oz, the ANZAC legend has been increasing its recognition among the younger generations. This has certainly been kicked along by the commemoration of the Centenary of Gallipoli and subsequent Western Front battles.

Kokoda also resonates, with school groups regularly attempting to walk the Track.

Closer to home, CoodaKid 3, who showed no interest as a child in my library of military aviation histories and surprised us all by becoming an F/A18 pilot, has discovered a latent interest in matters historical.

This started when I lent him a book and he found he could relate to Geoffrey Wellham's emotional experiences as a student pilot as described in First Light. It was reinforced by his meeting WW2 veterans at various RAAF functions.

The contributors to this Prince of Threads have brought alive this period of history in a way that no historian could hope to achieve. And the thread will be available to all as long as the internet endures.

I'll go out on a limb and predict the thread will go viral when the period of history that it describes approaches its Centenary. :O

[Chugalug2]

CS, good post, Sir! I completely agree that interest in WWII in particular will grow rather than wane. The example you give is excellent, that your son could relate on a personal basis to the experience of a BoB fighter pilot's training. That has been the secret of this thread, and in particular Danny's detailed and inspiring tale. We have all sat with him in his cockpit, fearful that the Oscar will spot us!

As he ruefully reminds us, further first hand testimony from his generation is becoming ever more unlikely. However, sons and daughters have already stepped to the fore, and from all around the world too. Others have posted accounts because of their particular research and attachment to certain aspects of the War in the Air (witness sidevalve's revelations of the Comet Line. I hope that even now there might be more about that?).

Danny, this thread has reached a cross roads, one direction being to a dead-end and its demise, the other to a different style, yet hopefully as inclusive and as informative as ever. WWII was a high water mark in this country's history. We really did make an enormous difference to the fate of the world, and the subsequent victory was a vindication of the years of suffering and sacrifice. It also hastened our demise to the much smaller player that we are today. With respect, I am not particularly keen to describe my part in that demise. I would much rather celebrate our finest hour, for which we later generations owe so much to the so many of yours.

[Brian 48nav]

Chugalug - I notice you were far too polite to mention to Danny that you were still in short trousers during the Airlift!

[Danny42C]

olympus (#11264),

Thank you, Sir ! - an inspiring story.

CoodaShooda (#11268),

..." he found he could relate to Geoffrey Wellham's emotional experiences as a student pilot"... I don't quite know what those might have been, but I've often thought that flyng training is to some degree a spiritual exercise - but have been too bashful to put my thoughts into print. Now it doesn't matter any more - so I've said it. Have others had experiences of this kind ?

Now CoodaKid 3 is exactly what we need ! Get him aboard here (it would do fine as his callsign) - unless, of course, he's here already, and he can be the Onlie Begetter of "Gaining a R.A.A.F. Pilot's Brevet in Oz" (or "In the Cold War", or whatever takes his fancy). And we can pass the baton to him; we can sit back, and he can have the best seat near the stove in our ancient Cybercrewroom. .... CoodaDad, it's up to you ! (Show him this).

btw, is there any movement on the put-together-another-Vengeance-bitsa front ? Thought there were a couple of groups out there scouring the land for scraps D.


Brian 48nav (#11270), and Chugalug,

What can I say ? - I am so sorry. Got the calculator out - oh, dear ! So I'm losing my marbles at last. There was nearly an Airlift II in summer 1961, when the Wall sprang up overnight in Berlin, and it looked as if Khruschev was going to "have another go", and Danny was hastily dragged to Gatow as one of the few people who remembered how to work the old MPN-1 "Bendix" they had there (the "Stephenson's Rocket" of GCAs), and, stupidly, had not timely replaced with a CPN-4 in the fond belief that it was "Peace in Our Time"). Chugalug, you and your Hastings would've been in nice time for that. Perhaps that was on my mind (the Past keeps getting telescoped) Mea Maxima Culpa!

Danny.

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

Danny - yr.no.11271

..." he found he could relate to Geoffrey Wellham's emotional experiences as a student pilot"... I don't quite know what those might have been, but I've often thought that flyng training is to some degree a spiritual exercise - but have been too bashful to put my thoughts into print. Now it doesn't matter any more - so I've said it. Have others had experiences of this kind ?

Geoffrey (Boy) Wellum became very depressed because he could not get the hang of flying for the first 10 or so hours of his training and he feared he would be "Bowler Hatted" any minute. An astute instructor told him that this was not uncommon in Ab Initio training (Stanford Tuck IIRC took 13 hours dual before Solo) and that all he had to do was RELAX - flying does not need any great physical effort - the actual movements should be entirely sub-conscious.

Once Wellum 'got' this he was fine. He wrote;

"The sheer joy of flight infiltrates the very soul and from above the earth, alone, where the mere thought in one's mind seems to transmit itself to the aeroplane, there is no longer any doubt that some omniscient force understands what life is all about. There are times when the feeling of being near to an unknown presence is strong and real and comforting. It is far beyond human comprehension. We only know that it is beautiful".

I took 12.20 dual before solo (possibly because I had to adapt to the methods of four different instructors in the first 10.45 of dual), so I would echo Wellum's instructor in advising him to not get het up about "ten-hour-itis".

I think anyone who has been alone in the sky with an aeroplane will know just what Wellum articulated so well in the quote I give above.

Ian BB

[JW411]

I cannot agree more with Ian B-B's post above. "Ten-hour-itis" probably got rid of more potentially promising pilots in the RAF than the Luftwaffe ever did. I suppose that wartime conditions demanded some sort of financial restraint but I'm sure that in many many cases it was a false economy.

I personally manged first solo after 8 hours 15 minutes but that was really quite an arbitrary figure for although I was immensely proud of myself I didn't know whether my backside was bored or countersunk.

I went on to have a long flying career of over half a century and I taught pilots to fly aircraft from gliders to DC-10s. I have to say that the "slow starters" often turned out to be the best operators.

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

JW411 Thanks.This reminds me of a statement by an RAF cadet in Florida (Danny did not agree).

"Not a single letter (presumably read by the censors) from former RAF Arnold Plan cadets had a word of approval for the hazing system". "It eliminated more potential British and American pilots accidentally than the German Air Force did on purpose," one cadet said. "There was no reason for it at all."

Your statement:

Ten-hour-itis" probably got rid of more potentially promising pilots in the RAF than the Luftwaffe ever did.





Danny
I reread the interviews with the Carlstrom cadets in Will Largents book last night, 42 E,F,G,H courses all represented. I am sorry to report that West Point Hazing was still a problem, a Lt. Kloppenstein being mentioned more than once, perhaps you recall him? It wasn't the cadets who were "Hazing " it was the U.S. officers still on-site, I think you were lucky, in fact like anyone who has followed your story I know you were. (Ah, sure the luck of the Irish - as yer know yerself).


IanBB

[Fixed Cross]

I would add one more element to this phenomenon. The fear of failure was often enhanced by the other members of the course who went solo in the early initial stage which must have added to the concerns of those lagging in the 'solo stakes'. From later service as a QFI, it was clear that those who reached solo early often had the benefit of previous flight experience (PPL etc). That was not always common knowledge among the student course members

[Danny42C]

Too many people to thank individually, would not like to leave anybody out, so thank you all good people who have commented on my offerings, or helped me with answers recently, on this, or on "The Battle of Britain" Thread, on which I would suppose most of us are keeping an eye.

Yes, Warburton, of course - and the "Malta Story" film (oh, how long ago !) is well worth YouTubing if you can get it. Essentially true, and a charming love interest to boot, which should bring in your WAGs And I've now got enough of the gist of what Stanford-Tuck wrote about the BoB pilots for my purpose.

It would seem that, like Mark Twain's: "Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated", this old Thread has arisen once more, Phoenix-like, from the ashes. Will keep my lip buttoned on the subject of its demise for a while......

Now the hoary old topic of "how many hours to solo ?" has been raised. This Extract from my p.118, #2347 shows me at odds with some of the recent Posts - but then, it'd be a dull world if we all thought alike, wouldn't it ?.

"The first ten hours of military flying instruction are critical. This is where the sheep are sorted from the goats. In civil life, a flying club will keep on taking your money till the cows come home, irrespective of whether you're ever going to make a pilot. The Army can't afford to do this, it's working to a timetable.

An average pupil will go solo after eight hours. Nine hours is stretching it. Ten, and your instructor will hand you over to a check pilot, who will take you up and assess your performance, and who may give you a second chance, with a different instructor. But this rarely happens. You're "washed out".

It sounds hard-hearted, and we think of late developers and helping lame dogs over stiles. But, as is pointed out, your dog is still lame after you've got him over the stile, and there are more stiles ahead. Better to chop him now.

Once the decision is taken, the bitterly disappointed pupil was always whizzed away quickly. Back in Canada, most retrained as Navigators or Wireless Operators/Air Gunners, so all was not lost. But never a second chance as a pilot! (Or so we were led to believe at the time; I have subsequently heard that there were second chances - particularly when these were disciplinary cases, and the pupil's flying ability was not in question). Obviously, this information was hidden from us then: otherwise it would offer a sort of "soft option" to the Arnold scheme for those who wished to take it.

The majority of these losses took place in the first ten days. After that they became progressively fewer. One of my room mates disappeared after a month, having absent-mindedly blundered through the circuit at our Relief Landing Ground. "Dangerous tendencies", they said, and he was out. Two others had fallen at the first hurdle, so now I had the room to myself

The Arnold Scheme had a "washout" rate of around 50%, I believe. [40%, actually]. Whether this was due to the impossibly high standards, or whether simple arithmetic had more to do with it, I have often wondered. My Course at Carlstrom started out some fifty strong. When we went on to Basic School, there were about twenty-five of us left. But we didn't find any "vacant chairs" when we got there. I think Carlstrom simply had to get rid of half of their intakes.

As for the later "Arnold Scheme Hazing" by American Officers, I can only say that the ones we had in 42C were few, harmless, and kept out of sight most of the time. A Guess: the US top brass thought that Hazing was a Good Idea of Itself ("never did me any harm, Sir"), but they could not induce RAF Cadets to do anything so stupid to their own comrades, and therefore had to import their own officers to do the dirty work. My opinion was that the oft voiced opinion that Hazing played a serious part in our "Chop Rate" is a red herring, it was just a nuisance, that's all (says he, never having suffered any).

Plenty more to say, but it can wait. - " 'Ware incoming !"

Danny.

[roving]

Talking of the first solo flight, someone decided it would be better to get a last photo of my Dad before his first in Texas ... 'just in case' ;)



Actually although it was its first solo flight in Texas it not his first solo flight, that was pre-war at Barton Aerodrome under the auspices of the Civil Air Guard which cost him the princely sum of two shillings and six pence an hour.

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

The BoB thread (of interest to all here) makes many references to Robert Roland Stanford Tuck -one of my boyhood heroes. If the "one size fits all" policy had been adhered to he would have been "bowler -hatted" at 10 hours and that would have been a terrible loss to Fighter Command in the coming conflict, as would "Boy" Wellum who later flew with him as the youngest fighter pilot in the BoB.
So, as a member of the luckiest generation (ever) I am grateful to his instructor F/O A P S Wills, and above him, F/L Tatnall and F/L Lywood and the CFI S/L W A B Savile who collectively had the insight, patience, vision (and balls) to "buck the system" and let A. P. O. Stanford Tuck receive 13 hours dual before solo. If this flexibility had not happened to these two gents, (and Gawd knows how many others we may never know of) I suspect that we might be speaking German as our first language in these islands.
Rigid rules are for the maintenance of the lowest common denominater.
Intelligent perception of potential talent is always worth a punt (IMHO).

Ian BB

[roving]

Ian B-B to reinforce the point you make ...

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

Thanks roving - interesting last line!
When Geoffrey Wellum was despairing that he would ever get the hang of flying, his instructor, Mr Hayne, said to him, "Things will iron themselves out, you'll see. You're a bit highly strung and temperamental, susceptible to atmosphere; you could possibly make a fighter pilot".

Ian BB

[Chugalug2]

IBG:-
Thanks roving - interesting last line!

Indeed! Justification at last for all we straight and level types fed with tea on the hour every hour. :ok:

[MPN11]

Who said this Thread was petering out? :)

[Danny42C]

Chugalug (#11261),

Too true. The Luftwaffe pilots had sworn allegiance to their Fuhrer, and loyally did their duty to him, as we had and did to our King. It was just their misfortune to have "Hitched their wagon" to an evil star. There should be no animosity between us - they were just doing their job. As for Hanna Reitsch, would I have shoe-horned myself into and test-flown a Me163 rocket ship ? - No, thanks !


MPN11 (#11282),

Me and my big mouth ! And, y'all, don't get me wrong about the 10-hour thing. I do not defend the USAAC system, but merely point out that they were working a 7-day week to a tight schedule, and if you did not solo at average time, they might not be able to get you through the Primary phase before it was time to ship you off to Basic School somewhere else.

Our instructors were not at all fazed by the enormous chop rates, which leads me to believe that their own cadets suffered a similar wastage rate. It may have been that a USAAC Cadetship was a highly prized thing (like a West Point cadetship): (I think you needed a Congressman's recommendation and two years "college" to apply).

For that reason they were able to recruit far more than the full training system could absorb, and so used Primary Schools as "Grading Schools" to whittle the numbers down. Whatever, the result was that we lost a potential 3,000 plus "Washouts", many of which could've been perfectly good pilots for the RAF if only they had been given more time at solo stage.

All this is "off the top of my head" of course. It has always been my hope that one day we will find an old Colonel, sipping his mint julep in a rocking chair on the back porch of his antebellum mansion, who was on General Arnold's staff, and can give us the low-down on this !

Cheers, both, Danny.

[Geriaviator]

Geoffrey Wellum's First Light is the best flying book I have read, though perhaps only those who have flown can fully appreciate it. I agree with all that has been said, and would add another thought. My first CFI was the legendary A. C. H. (Tubby) Dash, awarded the AFC for services to flight training during WW2 which included ab-initio training in the dark -- he told me it didn't make any difference. Tubby had some 2000 hours on Tiger Moths and was a man of few words but one afternoon we were sitting out a cold front and I asked him what had been the most satisfying experience of his long career.

He drew a long pull on his pipe and thought for at least half a minute. "Watching young men grow up", he said eventually. Then he added: "Flying puts years on them. It certainly has on me ..." I often remembered this remark, reflecting that the pilot holds his destiny in his hands every time he/she leaves the runway.

The aircraft is also a major factor. I went solo at 4hrs 20m on an Aircoupe, a woolly and viceless two-seater which went up and down by itself. I took almost as long again to solo a Tiger Moth, for my WW2 ex-Service instructor insisted on recovery from every attitude and spin recovery from 800ft before he sent me off on my own. "You can learn to drive on an Aircoupe", he said, "but the Tiger Moth teaches you to fly".

Long afterwards I learned that he had lost a student who spun in while turning finals. And half a century later, I am saddened to read of two Tiger Moth accidents over the past year or so, both resulting from stall-spin at low altitudes.

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

Danny,
while I stand by my earlier posts re "the 10-hour thing" I think that we have to remember that there was a bit of a World War going on by the time you entered flight training and the pressure was really on to produce pilots. When Stanford Tuck was Ab Initio (Oct. 1935) things would have been less frantic, so I suppose, more leeway was possible.
Geoffrey Wellum in "First Light" says that if you had not soloed by 10 hours your instructor was changed in case personalities were coming into it. Wellum asked his instructor Mr Hayne to stay with him if possible because neither of them had a problem with each other. Wellum says that 16 hours and a last flight with the C.F.I. meant that it was all over. I wonder if the fact that they were all "Hofficers" made a difference also? Wellum soloed Sept. 1st 1939 - the war with Germany kicked off two days later.
Pointless as it is now, as my flying days are past, I still envy all you military types (like my late father soloed at 8.55 , instructor F/O Meretinsky June 1942) with your one instructor - one pupil regime (I in a civvy flight school experienced 4 very different teachers before solo). Does the diminished, modern R.A.F. still use the 10 hour chop?

Ian BB

[esa-aardvark]

Away from home just now, but I remember that my father & uncle
each went solo in around 8.5 hours, thanks to Airworks.

That was in about 1947 or so.
Me ? will tell you later.No idea where my logbook is.

[roving]

harrym, I really enjoyed reading your contributions to this website (the link to which you posted here a couple of years or so ago).

Fun and Games with Harold (http://www.vc10.net/Memories/funandgames.html)

http://www.vc10.net/Memories/everything_raf.html#Lightning over Brize Norton

I refer to the VC 10 flights: The first being when you were flying Harold Wilson down from Ottawa to Washington to meet the US President and required to de-ice twice before take-off and then flew into wind sheer on approach to the US airport.The second when you were struck by a blue lightning ball on approach to Brize Norton.

[FantomZorbin]

Geriaviator


Aircoupe, a woolly and viceless two-seater which went up and down by itself
I seem to remember that it was impossible to stall an Aircoupe, it just waffled and drifted its way down! Heaven knows what would have happened if it had become properly stalled apart from the inevitable. All our stalling/spin training was on the Chippie.

[MPN11]

Piper Colt: solo in 5:35. As with FZ above, had to do 30 mins in a Chipmunk to discover proper S&S ;)

Tiger Moth: 9:55 and not sure I ever managed a decent landing before being scrubbed :)

[Warmtoast]

MPN11

not sure I ever managed a decent landing before being scrubbed


..was this you then? - joking WT!


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/TigerMothOops_zpsf3c9f8b6.jpg

[Fareastdriver]

Reminds me of the Tiger Moths being stacked up at the Maintenance Unit at RAF Heany in 1952. This was when the fleet were being changed to Chipmunks.

I spent many a happy hour sitting in a cockpit going Vroom Vroom amongst the wrecks.

Occasionally somebody would come along and chase us off but we would be back. tomorrow.

[Danny42C]

I believe what you must NOT do in these circumstances was to release the seat harness - otherwise you would drop out and break your neck !

Just thought I'd mention it.

[Fareastdriver]

Soon after Chep Lap Kok opened in Hong Kong they were suffering the after effects of a typhoon. The crosswind on the single runway were out of sensible limits and aircraft were diverting all over the place. Not so for a China Airlines (Taipei) captain who decided that, even though he had deliberately loaded sufficient fuel to continue to Taipei if necessary, decided to land.

Technically he was within the max landing weight and crosswind component but the turbulent wind coming over the hill south of the airfield caused him to lose it on late finals.

The aircraft struck wing first and rolled over and came to rest on its back with 315 passengers and crew. After it had come to rest only three of the passengers had been killed.

What was not recorded in the accident reports were the cabin crew screaming at the passengers NOT to release their seat belts whist they were hanging upside down.

This quick thinking most certainly saved many lives

[roving]

Fareastdriver,

Talking of disposal of aircraft following fleet changes, when 613 AAF based at Ringway changed from Spitfires to Vampires in about 1950, this chap from the MoD visited the squadron and he and my father walked over to the hanger where the Spitfires were being stored

Having looked wistfully at the Spitfires he turned to my father and said 'I have to get rid of all of these.

Sadly my father didn't take-up the invitation to buy one at scrap value prices.

[MPN11]

MPN11

..was this you then? - joking WT!

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/TigerMothOops_zpsf3c9f8b6.jpgNo, 'mine' was a different T8***, which amazingly still survives! :cool: :)

[harrym]

FantomZorbin – ref your #11248, I hope to get the account of that NZ trip up shortly, although be advised that Al Deere figures in it only briefly.

Thank you Roving for your #11287.

[roving]

harrym

In the early 1980's I was having lunch at an adjacent table to Harold and Mary Wilson, the occasion of which was described very amusingly by a now retired Lord Justice of Appeal -- but at the time by one of the Queens Counsel in this cause celebre, in a book review he wrote in 1999, and which began ...


"When, some years ago, the Bar’s dining room at the House of Lords was closed and barristers appearing before the Law Lords were given permission to use the Peers’ dining room, younger barristers became quite badly disoriented by seeing elder statesmen who they were confident had been dead for many years lunching at the next table. What they didn’t always appreciate was that it was thanks to a similar cryogenic process that the Law Lords themselves were hearing appeals – as they still are."

[Danny42C]

Maybe I'm not very observant, but on swanning around on BBC4 iPlayer (as one does) I came across: "Cold War: Hot Jets" (first shown 2013). Don't remember seeing it before. It deals of those few years (just postwar) when we were world leaders in aviation, and our young Queen had an Air Force to be proud of.

And Danny had just crawled back in under the wire to put on the light blue for the second time.

Recommend. Only Episode 1 available for next 22 days ...... more planned, I hope !

[Geriaviator]

https://s1.postimg.org/6tbpaqpgpr/ards_ju52_1936.png

This Ju52 was parked at Newtownards airfield in Co. Down while its passenger, German Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop, was the guest of Secretary of State for Air Lord Londonderry at Mountstewart, a few miles away. The airfield is still owned by Londonderry Estates.

Ribbentrop's November 1936 visit had a sequel five years later when the Belfast air raids killed more than 800 people. The Ju52 captain returned to Newtownards this time commanding a section of Heinkel bombers which hit the airport buildings with deadly accuracy, killing 13 people including young soldiers from the town who were guarding the area. Several bomb craters were visible until a few years ago when the area was developed for housing. Hopefully none of the Luftwaffe ordnance is still around there. Wilhelm Sieghert was Germany's Inspector of Flying Troops (1916–1918).

The aircraft had a 24-hour police guard, and the horses in the background are pulling a mowing machine to keep the grass airfield in immaculate condition for its high-ranking visitor, who in 1946 was hanged for war crimes.

[PPRuNeUser0139]

The Comet Line repatriated Allied aircrew shot down in the Low Countries and northern France via the Basque country, over the Pyrenees and on down to Gib. To the best of my knowledge, only two evaders were lost out of some 878 who were successfully returned.

They were Count Antoine d’Ursel, a 48 year old Belgian nobleman who had been the head of Comet in Belgium but who was heading for London after his cover had been blown by the Germans. The other was 2nd Lt James F Burch, USAAF, a 26 year old B-17 co-pilot, a native of Terrell, Tx.

Jim Burch’s aircraft was shot down by fighters during their 5th mission (to Munster) on 10th October 1943.

The bombardier was 2nd Lt Lloyd Albert Stanford and he described the subsequent events as follows:
“We dropped out of formation before we reached the target, and German fighters hit us before we could catch up. We dropped our bombs about 30 seconds behind the lead squadron, and they seemed to go well into the target. We almost caught up with the formation but then lost them on the shift just after the target. German fighters came in a second time and shot out one of the engines. The pilot saw two other ships out of formation on our left, and we were trying to join them. Seeing us with one engine out and chased by fighters, they seemed to want to get away. Fighters came in again, and we received the order to bail out. I started to go out and then went back to pick up my GI shoes. I didn’t see anyone in the cockpit then. The navigator jumped and I went out shortly.”

The aircraft crashed near Holten (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Holten,+Netherlands/@52.2811299,6.4147965,10z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x47c7e5e7aaceda21:0x52a325ed209fe518!8m2!3d 52.282724!4d6.4222585?hl=en), in the Netherlands. 2nd Lt William “Dick” Whitlow, USAAF, the aircraft commander, was picked up by a resistance worker virtually on landing and a few days later he joined up with S/Sgt John T Ashcraft, his radio operator, and they stayed together throughout their successful evasion. On 24th November they arrived in Brussels and were taken in charge by Aline “Lily” Dumont, a key Comet guide. From there, they travelled by train on 18th December to Dax in SW France, from where they took to bicycles to ride the last 60km or so to an inn at Anglet-Sutar, just outside Bayonne. Fortunately for them, given what was to happen to the other group, they crossed the Pyrenees via an inland route on 20th December 1943.

(Aline Dumont was awarded the George Medal after the war. I had the privilege of meeting her at her home in Provence 3 years ago.) http://www.omsa.org/files/Verstraeten%20Geo%20M.pdf

Meanwhile, after arriving in the Pays Basque, Jim Burch and Lloyd Stanford were taken to the home of Katalin Aguirre in Ciboure, close to Saint-Jean-de-Luz. They found that they were to be part of a ten-strong group - comprising three guides and seven evaders. This was an unprecedented number. The other evaders were two other B-17 aircrew (2nd Lt Robert Z Grimes and 2nd Lt Art Horning) plus 3 civilians (Count Antoine d’Ursel and two French agents: Albert Ancia & Roland Bru).

The plan was to make the crossing during the night of 23-24th December 1943. Unfortunately, Florentino Goikoetxea, the legendary Comet guide, was unwell and not available to lead the group over the mountains and so the lead role defaulted to Jean François Nothomb (aka “Franco”), another Belgian aristocrat, who, at the time, was head of the entire Comet network. He was to be assisted by two Basques – Martin Errazkin and Manuel Olaizola, (aka “Cestona”). The ten-strong party set off in the early evening darkness, aiming to reach the Bidassoa (the river that separated occupied France from Francoist Spain) in the small hours.

It had been raining heavily for the previous few days and the Bidassoa was running high and in flood. As they started their descent down through the densely vegetated valley sides in total darkness, they heard the roar of the river below. On arriving at the river bank at 0100hrs, the Count was shivering with a recurrence of malaria and Jim Burch was feeling the effects of the heavy bruising down one side he'd suffered on exiting his B-17 some 2 months earlier.

_wk6OYjtj3Q

They stripped off their trousers and looped them around their necks for the man behind to hold on to. Midway across, Spanish guards on the opposite bank opened fire and there was a shriek as Jim Burch lost his footing and was swept away in the strong current. The Count d'Ursel made an abortive attempt to cross and, much weakened, he too was swept away during the course of his second attempt.

In the confusion, Spanish guards arrested Stanford, Horning, Grimes, Bru and Ancia. "Franco" & the 2 Basque guides managed to escape in the darkness.

Both bodies were recovered downstream the next morning by the Germans who put them on display (on Christmas Eve) in the porch of the local church at Biriatou as a warning. Overnight, the villagers covered the bodies with flowers which apparently enraged the Germans. They took the bodies away and they were never seen again.

The Count's widow arranged for a riverside memorial to be set up for her late husband in 1960 - but on realising that Jim Burch had no memorial, our association decided to launch a project 2 years ago to provide one in his memory. The Count's memorial was moved to a new site (its footing was fragile) and we inaugurated the new memorial site last April. It was attended by family members as numerous local civic dignatories. A truly memorable occasion.

[harrym]

Fantomzorbin and Roving, as requested here is an account (part 1) of the flight to NZ on which Al Deere was a passenger. Part 2 follows shortly subject to moderators' approval - it is, after all, somewhat OT!



Early in the morning of the 21st.October 1959 Britannia XL638 climbed slowly away from Darwin's damp heat, setting its nose south eastwards for the long haul to Ohakea in New Zealand's north island. A euphoric mood pervaded the flight deck, and not only because was Darwin a good place to leave; we were on the final stage of our long flight from the UK to NZ, a leisurely schedule wished on us by the 617 Sqdn Detachment whose ground crew we carried on this first global flight by an RAF Britannia. Already the original three Vulcans had dwindled to two, following a pointless attempt by one of their pilots to land at Karachi without using his drag 'chute. The consequent bogie fire right outside the terminal provided a Peter Sellers-type comedy act as the local fire team attempted unsuccessfully to extinguish the blaze, eventually doused by a crew chief using a hand extinguisher.

This was only one incident among a number involving the Vulcans and their personnel during a prolonged global odyssey. For instance, much could be written about the medical officer who accompanied them, presumably to safeguard the health and well-being of our "Great Deterrent". What they were supposed to deter I never discovered but he was notably unsuccessful, for following his advice on diet and drink during our overnight stay at Minwallah's Grand Hotel (of dreaded memory), many of his flock were stricken with the local palsy whereas by dint of common sense (much whisky, no ice) our Lyneham team remained in excellent health. This individual was a constant nuisance, turning up late for every departure and on more than one occasion being almost left behind. Various other excitements occurred, and somehow we arrived in NZ with one of their airmen under close arrest while as for the trip home, that would almost require a book in itself. But I suppose I must not be too hard for unlike us they were unaccustomed to operating far from base, and anyway the trip would not have happened in the first place had not 617 Sqdn received an invitation to visit New Zealand.

En route, light relief was provided by the necessity of virtually having to smuggle one of our passengers on board at the last moment. For reasons unknown, the redoubtable Al Deere had incurred the displeasure of 617's group AOC who was accompanying us in his own Comet and had tried to to veto Al's passage; however, by dint of various subterfuges we always contrived to sneak him on board at the last moment and were delighted, at the end, to be able to return him to his native land.

Scenically this final stage was boring, long hours of desert followed by the Tasman Sea, so first sight of Mount Egmont's volcanic cone above the horizon gave glad tidings of journey's end. Our destination of Ohakea was situated on a rich agricultural plain south east of the mountain, not far from the west coast, and is (was?) one of the RNZAF's main bases; the weather was gin- clear, and so it was not long before we touched down on its lengthy runway. Unusually, it appeared to be made of hexagonal concrete panels neatly fitting into each other, a form of construction I have not encountered elsewhere; however it was less satisfactory than it looked, being incredibly bumpy.

During the approach there had been comment on the countryside's lush appearance, and on leaving the aircraft our nostrils were assailed by the powerful aroma of fresh cut grass with more than a hint of clover; delicious almost beyond belief, and giving some reason as to why the country's meat & dairy products are so esteemed. On the personal level we were greeted in an equally welcoming manner, receiving profuse apologies for the accommodation offered and given a run-down on the program for our twelve day stay. Now the primary reason for our visit was attendance at the forthcoming grand opening of Wellington's new airport, and in addition to our Vulcans and Britannia there was the AOC's Comet 2, a Beverley from Singapore, a contingent from the USAF and (I think) the RAAF also. As for accommodation, due to the large number of visiting crews it was necessary to house us dormitory-style in huts; not ideal, but the weather was fairly benign and anyway in those days we were younger and less particular. There was little alternative, as the area was very rural and hotels virtually non-existent.

At a distance of 58 years I cannot recall the exact chronological sequence of events, but my log book tells me that two days after arrival the entire RAF contingent boarded Beverley XM104 (captain Flt.Lt John Grobler) for the brief flight to Wellington. Officially this was for a formal greeting by mayor & corporation at the town hall, but it also afforded a valuable preview of the airfield for those of us who were to partake in the display a couple of days later. For me there was a further attraction; my parents were on a world cruise, and their ship the "Southern Cross" was due to sail from Wellington that very evening. Taking a taxi from the airport direct to the docks I was disappointed to find the Blue Peter hoisted and visitors streaming ashore; however, the officials kind-heartedly allowed me on board for half an hour or so, time enough for a happy reunion over a stiff gin & tonic, and as I finally stepped off the gangplank dock workers were waiting to pull it away. Unable to see the ship depart as I was already late for the town hall beano, it was into another taxi for an event of which I remember next to nothing (memory failure not booze). Climbing away in the Beverley sometime after dark, I noticed a large ship well down the harbour inlet on its way to the open sea; probably the "Southern Cross" again.

Next day we positioned XL638 to Wellington in readiness for the Open Day and its associated flying display, and perhaps this is a convenient point to say something about the city's rather unique airport. The local topography can only be described as hostile to all forms of transport: the harbour, although an excellent natural shelter, has a tricky entrance from the dreaded Cook Strait with no shortage of jagged rocks on the way in; early railway builders had great difficulty in laying out workable grades and in later years much track re-alignment became necessary, local motorists get plenty of practice in hill-climbing, while providing an airport was so difficult that for decades there was none and the country's capital had to make do with Palmerston North, many miles distant.

With the development of air transport this became an insupportable nuisance, and eventually a small general aviation airfield was increased to its maximum possible dimensions and dubbed "Wellington International". Situated on an isthmus connecting the city to a lumpy island jutting into the harbour, the runway was (is?) a bare 6000ft long or perhaps even a shade less; further extension would only have been possible by building into the harbour, a ruinously expensive project as it is about 50ft above mean sea level anyway. Indeed on my only subsequent visit many years later nothing had changed, but whether or not it has since been lengthened I do not know. So what with the surrounding high ground, steep drops immediately off both ends of an undesirably short strip of tarmac, plus Wellington's notoriously wet & windy weather, it bade fair to rival the old Kai Tak as one of the world's less enticing airports. All this is of some significance in view of events to follow…………….

[Danny42C]

harrym'

Splendid memories - keep them coming !

Danny.

PS: Ref my #11298, Episode 2 is up, too. Don't see how there can be any more,

[Icare9]

Various other excitements occurred, and somehow we arrived in NZ with one of their airmen under close arrest while as for the trip home, that would almost require a book in itself.
C'mon harrym; this is the ideal place for such reminiscences and perhaps revelations and the passage of years has probably put most of the central characters already in the ethereal crewroom. Your writing style is just right, clear and concise, almost the equal to the main triumvirate who have carried the mainstay of this thread, so please, expand, divert and above all, tell us what the "old" RAF did, exemplifying, exceeding or falling short (?) of WW2 standards and attitudes.
We drained Danny dry, yet he still exhorts the best from the rest, please.
Ah! Britannia's, Vulcans, Comets, even that anathema of aerodynamics, the Beverley - you've got 'em all - the dreams of my youth. lightnings, the superb Gnat, and the Harrier - the aircraft that destroyed still photography for me - who could tell whether it was going forwards, back or hover?

I lived under the approach to Southend (RAF Rochford in WW2) Airport, so civil aviation was what I grew up with, but the RAF of the late 50's and early 60's - ah! You evoke memories of sunny days watching silver planes in blue skies.......
So, please, more!

[seafury45]

This is modern but may be of interest. Fiesler Storch

https://youtu.be/wZouzzfZcrg

[FantomZorbin]

harrym
Many thanks ... and I echo Danny, keep them coming !

[MPN11]

The early post-War period [let's say 45-60] is, perhaps, less well documented and yet full of dramatic developments.

More please! :)

[Danny42C]

MPN11,

The BBC4 iPlayer (and YouTube) "Cold War - Hot Jets" is precisely on those very developments !

Danny.

[MPN11]

MPN11,

The BBC4 iPlayer (and YouTube) "Cold War - Hot Jets" is precisely on those very developments !Indeed, mon vieux, and I have watched it more than once! I was hoping some of our elder brethren might add some more personal tales of that period ... including you, of course! You must have many tales and aircraft types to fill the gap between the VV and ATC ;)

[Danny42C]

MPN11 (#11308),

Sir, the best I can do is to refer you to Page 124, #3278 here, which opens my second period of service in 1949, and continues to the bitter end in 1954 (Page 196, #3913).

Not a tale of Heroism in the Cold War, I admit ! ... Yet: "They Also Serve Who Only Stand and Wait".

Danny.

[Blacksheep]

"They Also Serve Who Only Stand and Wait".We ground crew didn't stand and wait. In between hectic periods of activity we sat and played Uckers. But we definitely Served. ;)

[harrym]

OK Danny, Icare9 et al, here's part 2. Next up will go back a few years in time, with memories of that gentle giant the Beverley.


For the night of the 24th. our crew was lodged with various local families, and I found myself in an attractive modern house overlooking Wellington where I was pampered and over-fed by my hospitable middle-aged hosts. Next day our sequence was due fairly early in the day's events and had already been cleared with the airport authorities. As I recall, we made two fly-pasts at low level, one slow with everything hanging down and one fast; this latter at VNE and then throttles to idle approaching the airfield, thus providing a silent passage in contrast to the din of the jets. Aided by a low all-up weight the landing run was satisfyingly short, and by remaining in reverse idle after coming to rest the Britannia's backwards-taxy capability was convincingly demonstrated to the appreciation of a large crowd.

With this over I was free to watch the larger part of the programme yet to follow. For the locals, one of the highlights was to be the Vulcan display which it was hoped would terminate with a full-stop landing. Normally the runway would have been considered a bit on the short side, but given the aircraft's low fuel load and the typically Wellington weather on the day itself - a gusty breeze, fortunately from the north and straight down the runway - no problem was anticipated in stopping with the aid of a drag 'chute. The Vulcan duly appeared, following its sequence with a couple of roller landings the second of which was nicely judged and could easily have become a full-stop had the 'chute been streamed. But rather to my surprise the throttles went forward again and the B1 climbed away for a third arrival, the PA system announcing that this would be its final landing. Right from the start the approach looked wrong, very draggy and far too flat, and I watched with increasing unease, well aware that the vertical distance between the pilot's eye level and his mainwheels was far greater than usual given the very high angle of attack - a dangerous trap indeed in view of his excessively flat approach. Indeed it became patently obvious that even if he made the runway it would be a very close-run thing, and I willed him to take remedial action before it was too late; in vain, for a shower of dirt flew up as the mainwheels touched in the short undershoot area and with deceleration the Vulcan tilted increasingly to the left during its landing run, the main leg's drag link fractured due to the bogie impacting the runway's raised lip.

With nil support on the port side, the stricken Vulcan continued a leftwards veer which I saw to my horror would take it into the public enclosure. Just in time, with wingtip almost scraping the hard stuff, one correct decision was taken and the throttles slammed forward so that it roared back into the air with fuel streaming from a ruptured tank. Apprehensively I watched clouds of kerosene mist swirling about in the jet efflux, and waited for the seemingly inevitable explosion which thankfully never came; however, had the fuel been JP4 rather than avtur it might well have been a very different story but as it was the Vulcan disappeared slowly into the distance, heading back to Ohakea.

The display continued, in fact the RNZAF seemed determined to provide the crowd with further thrills when one of their Sunderlands made an extremely low pass; pushing his luck somewhat I thought, watching it disappear momentarily behind a low building between me and the runway. However its tail fin remained visible, and I was intrigued to notice that this suddenly dipped out of sight and then reappeared a second or two later. There followed some rather excitable comment from the PA which I failed to pick up, but subsequently learned that the flying boat had encountered what old timers would call an air pocket and thus scraped its keel on the runway. This had somehow started a fire in the bilges and, following futile in-flight attempts at extinguishment during the short hop back to its Auckland base, the pilot alighted as near to the shore as possible in hope of reaching the slipway before foundering - in which he was unsuccessful, thus depleting his air force of one of its few remaining Sunderlands. So altogether the airport's opening could only be considered somewhat inauspicious, although the crowd had had the benefit of some unscheduled thrills at no extra cost (to them, anyway).

At the end of the day we ferried XL638 back to Ohakea where the crippled Vulcan squatted ignominiously on the grass, its pilot having to some extent redeemed himself by carrying out a well-executed arrival on nose and right legs only. Six days remained of our sojourn in NZ, I cannot remember why so many but fancy that delayed arrival of a replacement Vulcan might have had something to do with it as, for 617, the whole global flight was some sort of training exercise. We had no complaints, for there was the matter of a pressing invitation from a local farmer.

I think that we were first introduced to Pat Gilchrist at some hospitality function in the area farmers' club, to which we were later invited to return on a more casual basis. This was of course long before the Antipodean nations liberalised their archaic drinking laws, the basic and very dismal pubs offering only the horrors of the notorious "six o'clock swill", and so the facility of a private club was more than welcome. To comply with the law it was not possible to order individual drinks over the bar; instead members had their private lockers (it was of of course a male-only club) in which were kept such bottles as they themselves supplied with the barkeep's sole function being to provide glasses and ice. Again, memory fails me as to how we managed to stand our round under such a system, but suspect that bottles were obtained from the officers' mess and then passed on (probably illegally) to our friends.

Anyway, Pat invited several of us to stay overnight on his sheep farm some miles away. Fairly remote, with only a couple of other farms distantly visible, by the UK standards of those days the house was luxurious to a degree and the farm itself looked very well equipped. Some friends had been invited to the evening meal and we were promised a good feast of local produce, but in the event pre-dinner drinking went on so long that the excellent joint of meat was done to a frazzle by the time we got to table. Local hospitality being what it was, this was unfortunately not the only occasion when similar waste of good food occurred - I fear that New Zealand women of that era had to put up with a lot!

As a gesture of appreciation for all that had been done for us, on the 28th XL638 provided a two-hour tour of local sights that included Mt.Egmont and Lake Taupo among other attractions; it also enabled us to thoroughly check the aircraft and its equipment prior to the long flight home via the Pacific and USA. For all but a very few of our passengers this was their first flight in a turbine-engined aircraft, so they were much taken with the Britannia's smoothness and relative silence. Particularly impressive was the demonstration of standing a coin on edge in order to show the lack of vibration, however it did help to use a coin with a good edge; we also ensured a slight and surreptitious increase of prop rpm prior to the demo!

Our final event was to be part of the static line-up at Ohakea's own open day, where XL638 attracted much interest and favourable comment as the largest and newest aircraft on show; all day long a straggling queue waited for their turn to have a look inside. The flying display was without incident, although the only thing I recall was one of the USAF visitors going supersonic by request, which shows how long ago it all was. It was less exciting than might be imagined, because in those far-off days very few aircraft were able to exceed Mach 1 in level flight and so it was necessary for him to climb to a vast height and then dive towards us from afar; all we knew of it was a loud double bang, the aircraft remaining invisible.

Bidding me farewell on the first day of November, the Station Commander bade us return "at any time; you guys are always welcome, but for pity's sake don't bring the other lot”! His actual words were rather more forceful, and I had frequent cause to remember them on the way home as we experienced further contretemps in addition to what had transpired so far, but that is no part of this tale.


ADDENDUM:

This was not only the first proper route trip for any of us in a Britannia, it was also the first lengthy flight of any description undertaken by an RAF specimen. The aircraft performed flawlessly, the only problem that I recall being with a flap motor that was rectified outbound at Akrotiri. At that time the familiar rigid procedure for use of cowl heat (the engine anti-ice system unique to the RAF Britannia) had yet to be formulated, and the only guidance we had was to use it (as I recall) in "visible icing conditions". Luckily we encountered no such conditions during the entire circumnavigation, which was probably just as well in view of the Proteus engine's notorious susceptibility to icing; even EGV heat had only to be used once or twice. Also, the engine problems that were to come in the New Year lay in the future, so we were spared having to drag our way round the world at a miserable 11350 crpm even if we were limited to 11500; a few years passed before uprated turbine blades allowed us use of the full 11650 for climb & cruise.

[ancientaviator62]

Blacksheep,
in between servicing the a/c we guarded the camp ! Not much time for uckers.

[Danny42C]

Chugalug,

I have an uneasy feeling that: "Your Anniversary [natal date] occurs about this time" (as they say from the pulpit - in a different context).

If this be so, and I have missed it, please accept my profound apology, and allow me to make amends by asking all here present to raise a glass to one of our most prolific contributors, and my esteemed Mentor here.

Danny.

[Blacksheep]

in between servicing the a/c we guarded the camp ! Not much time for uckers.At Waddington we had a reputation as the finest night club in Lincolnshire. The NAAFI - Alias The Raven Club - presented such 60s bands as The Bee Gees, Pink Floyd, Small Faces etc and crowds of civilians descended upon the station from as far away as Edinburgh to attend our Saturday Night Dances. All within half a kilometer of the QRA dispersal and 3 or 4 megatons of sunshine. QRA itself had armed RAF Police guards on each aircraft, but guard the whole camp? Never.

[Danny42C]

Blacksheep (#11314),

Totally off Thread, (but following your remarks concerning loose-ish security at Waddo).
What might have happened at the Conservative Conference had that prankster had a knife as well as the dummy P45 ?

Makes you think !

Danny.

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

Danny yr. 11313

I seem to recall that Cap'n Chugalug is, a (self confessed) SCORPIO (well I wouldn't want any daughter of mine to marry one)!

So, as today the sun is at 13 degrees of LIBRA we have at least a couple more weeks before we raise a glass, (not that we need an excuse to do so anyhoo)!

In the meantime, as the sun is over the yard-arm, and the falling-down water is to hand - Cheers!

[Chugalug2]

Danny, Ian has me banged to rights, and I can but reassure him that we Scorpios are greatly misunderstood and put upon by a cruel world. One must respect the protective instincts of a loving father though, and anyway Mrs C would have much to complain of should he relent and allow of such a union.

So, thank you Danny for your kind though somewhat premature greeting, and I join Ian in raising a glass to you and all our fellow crew room members in wishing you all good health and cheer.

harrym, your tale of a whispering giant in far away places and so long ago reminds us all that the past is a far off place where they did things differently. The RAF and USAF presence alone for the opening of a 6000' runway must have come close to doubling its cost, especially at the loss of a Sunderland and the near loss of a Vulcan! The six o'clock swill was a uniquely antipodean device that suited brewers and church alike. The former sold as much product as they would have with rather more liberal opening hours, while cutting down on staff hours and thus costs. The latter ensured that families were reunited by early evening providing that the prodigal fathers survived the homeward commute in their rather tired and emotional states. The last duties of the staff before putting up the shutters was to turn a high pressure hose on the tiled walls and concrete floors. Hygiene above all else!

[ancientaviator62]

Blacksheep,
you Bomber Command chaps had it easy. We did guard the camp in Fighter Command.

[MPN11]

... The last duties of the staff before putting up the shutters was to turn a high pressure hose on the tiled walls and concrete floors. Hygiene above all else!They also used to hose down the floor of the 'Pigs Bar' in the Mess at Tengah at some stage during the evenings. "Throwing Beer" was freely available at no cost from the overflowing slop-trays under the effervescent Tiger dispensers, on request from your friendly Chinese barman (one was called Fong, can't recall the name of the other.)

[Danny42C]

Chugalug (#11317),

Ignore that base fellow Ian BB ! I, and all my nearest and dearest (and all the best people, naturally), are Scorpios (although I am rather surprised, and not a little embarrassed, by reading Google's account of my supposed qualities and propensities) !

Be that as it may, I say "Ad Multos Annos" to you, whatever the date ! Roll on next year !

Aided and Abetted by MPN11 (#11319), I draw attention to your ..."was freely available at no cost from the overflowing slop-trays". What a waste of good beer ! In days of old, when Danny was a Bar Officer (sorry - "Wines
Member"), beer came "in the Wood". When the revellers had all staggered off, it was the work of a moment to funnel all the slops back into the barrel (a simple wire filter creamed-off the fag-ends, matchsticks, crisp packets and sundry rubbish). What the eye doesn't see ...... !

Of course, it was all "still" ale then. You can't do that with the stuff that comes out of a pressurised aluminium barrel - all wind and :mad: ! Perhaps mopping the floor with it is the best thing to do wih it. Except Guinness, which is Good For You - even if it comes in cans labelled "Draught" (a howling oxymoron, surely).

Danny.

[MPN11]

Danny, I am shocked (indeed appalled) by your beer management technique. Of course, Tiger isn't real beer, so well suited for throwing. And in any case, with 3 Bars in the Mess being fed from a central chilled cellar via various pressurised pubmbing, it would have been a bit of a challenge.

Scorpio here too, BTW. Wasn't that 84's Badge?

[Danny42C]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7f/84sqncrst.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:84sqncrst.png)
Official Squadron Badge of No. 84 Squadron RAF


MPN11, Can't space this properly, but you appear to be right ! 84 were with us at the end in Burma, but had been doing good work with the Chindits earlier. Their C.O.. Wing Cdr Gill was put up for a DSO for it, but the Vengeance was out of favour. so it was scaled down to a DFC.. There is a Thread about him on Military Aviation
"Pungunt" sounds "smelly" to me, looked it up: "Pungo" = "I prick/sting". Understand they fry 'em and eat 'em in Singapore, you would know.....Danny.............................................. ............................................................

[MPN11]

W00T ... a memory cell still works :)

Huzzah for all Scorpios/Scorpions :)


< PS: I didn't look it up, Sir, honestly! >

[MPN11]

Sheesh, having read this >>> https://exemplore.com/astrology/Scorpio-Male-Personality
... and having recently garnered my years of F1369 ... That is quite scarily accurate!

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

Kee-risht - I seem to have stirred up a nest of scorpions on this thread, and as you have read yourselves, it is not just my experience of you Scorps. - MPN11, on my next visit to Jersey to see my aunt and cousins I'll come and throw stones at your windows (I'll set the parish Centenier on ya).
Danny, to call me a "base fellow" when your last comment on my character was to comment on how "sage" my historic posts had been confirms how fickle the 15 minutes of fame we are all allocated these days really is!

Seriously tho' there must be some kindly scorpios out there - it's just that in my 70 years on this, the 3rd rock out from the sun, I have not been fortunate enough to meet them.
As always, I live in hope!

Ian BB

[roving]

Entirely Off Topic:

MPN11,

When you were training at Shawbury in the mid 1960's on one of the courses run at that time by George Elliot DFC, a WWII Canadian bomber navigator, and Tim Derrick, my step mother was a Flight Officer stationed there.

(for the uninitiated until 1968 the WRAF had a different rank structure. A Flight Officer was the feminine form of Flight Lieutenant).

One of her important roles was giving George Elliot all the details on young officers on the courses showing too close an interest in his daughter Rosie -- with whom I spoke most recently by telephone earlier this year).

George Elliot was a gentleman. Tim Derrick could be brusque.

[roving]

harrym,

I was transported in the back of a Beverley from KL to Singapore in late 1958. It was like entering Batu Caves. An enormous cavern.

In the same year, when I had a clear line of sight from the garden of our married quarter on the hillside to the west of the runway in KL, I could watch the BOAC Bristol Britannia fly in -- once a week on a Saturday, as I recall. What a wonder sight, sound and smell. It was true love at first sight for a nine year old boy.

[Chugalug2]

For those who found sidevalve's posts on the Comete Line interesting, Channel 4 had an episode of the WWII Great Escapes series last night that featured the "Pat O'Leary Line". The Pyrenees were the route to freedom of some 33,000 in total according to the programme presenter Monty Halls, of which some 3,500 served. The majority of the civilians were Jews fleeing the Nazi and Vichy regimes (albeit to yet another Fascist regime in Spain!).

In retracing the highest and most challenging route, after easier routes had been compromised by betrayal and counter intelligence, Halls shows us the demanding terrain involved. He and his crew wore modern climbing gear and travel in the summer by day, whereas many had to cross by night and in the winter, and in the clothing and footwear that they happened to have been wearing as they evaded. Many perished in the course of the crossing of course:-

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/wwiis-great-escapes-the-freedom-trails/on-demand/65446-004

Registration is required in order to watch this free on demand service.

[MPN11]

... When you were training at Shawbury in the mid 1960's on one of the courses run at that time by George Elliot DFC, a WWII Canadian bomber navigator, and Tim Derrick, my step mother was a Flight Officer stationed there. ...

One of her important roles was giving George Elliot all the details on young officers on the courses showing too close an interest in his daughter Rosie -- with whom I spoke most recently by telephone earlier this year).

George Elliot was a gentleman. Tim Derrick could be brusque.1. Lt Cdr Tim Derrick was my Course Commander when I went through. Seemed OK from what I recall - at least, I didn't get into trouble with him!

2. There was another Instructor at the time who had 2 daughters. I dated one of them a few times, and the other ended up married to a contributor here* ;)


* Unless my memory is playing tricks, but I'm quietly confident! ;)

[Wander00]

Chug - just watched the programme on the Pat O'Leary line (recorded on my Freesat box). I have to confess myself hugely moved at the challenge faced and overcome by 3500 servicemen and 33000 refugees to escape from occupied Europe. The people who helped them were pretty remarkable too. We owe them all the greatest respect.

[Chugalug2]

Absolutely agree, Wander00. If this were simply a story about sheer fortitude of civilian and military escape and evasion by land over immense distances and terrible terrain (witness the Polish Army evacuation following the successful Nazi invasion) it would be well worthy of a thread dedicated as this one is to WWII.

But, as sidevalve has already told us, the raison d'etre of the Comete, nee Dedee, Line was the escape of Allied Airmen to the UK via the Basque region of SW France. Here at least collaboration gave way to resistance in order to repatriate that most valuable of war winning Allied assets, trained operational aircrew. Those courageous civilian volunteers who risked their lives, and often gave them in order to assist in this unique way the Allied Bomber Offensive, had no illusions about the true cost of total war. They may have been young but they had more wisdom than the anguishing chattering classes back in the UK. As you say, respect!

[Geriaviator]

We love walking although we can't cover the ground so well these days. Those pathways where they existed at all would make my hair stand on end even when we were young and fit. How so many people made the journey without proper food, clothing and footwear and often at night reflects great courage and dedication, and the bravery of their guides. It was mentioned that thousands of people had died on the route; I'm not surprised. Well done C4 for this well deserved tribute.

[roving]

1. Lt Cdr Tim Derrick was my Course Commander when I went through. Seemed OK from what I recall - at least, I didn't get into trouble with him!

2. There was another Instructor at the time who had 2 daughters. I dated one of them a few times, and the other ended up married to a contributor here* ;)


* Unless my memory is playing tricks, but I'm quietly confident! ;)

I saw Derrick on the course photograph you posted on this website, hence my mention of him. I am sure he was very professional.

Not sure who the course instructor was who was so generous with his daughters, but it was not Wing Commander George Elliot DFC -- Rosie was an only child.

My father & step mother, the Elliots and the Derricks were very close, 'not least because my dad was flying with Marshalls Outstations Shawbury from late 1961 to December 1981, much of which was as chief pilot.

When my dad retired, he also relinquished his VR (T) commission.

After a seven year career break between 1973 and 1980, my step mother resumed her Royal Air Force career, being posted to Northwood just ahead of the Falkland's war. She was promoted to Squadron Leader in 1984. She retired in 1987 to become Bursar of a West Midlands Public School, which she ruled with a rod of iron for more than a decade. My dad died in November 2007, my step-mother last year.

[Danny42C]

ian BB (#11316),

You said:
..."I seem to recall that Cap'n Chugalug is, a (self confessed) SCORPIO (well I wouldn't want any daughter of mine to marry one)!"...
How would you expect any red-blooded Scorpion to react ? Never met any face-to-face myself, they mainly infested the drier NW Provinces, whereas over in the wet, humid East our troubles included snakes, spiders, millipedes, white, red and black ants, and a Cowardly Tiger (oh, and not forgetting an AWOL Elephant !)

Notwithstanding, I always tapped my slippers out before putting them on in the morning (the scorpion was supposed to find inside the toe a cosy bunk for the night), and this habit stayed with me long after I got back to Blighty.

Just About Everybody Else,

Lt-Cmdr Derrick (aka "The Admiral") was our Boss when I laboured in the vineyard of the CATCS (and we turned out some fine vintages '64 - '67). Wg Cdr Elliot was a remote figure (didn't his Rosie have a Lotus - two Unattainable Objects of Desire in One ?). But no interest to happily married Danny.

Over all presided Group Captain Wallace................No Comment.

Chugalug, have never heard of the "Pat O'Leary Line," must look it up, if only as a counterpoise to that old ruffian Michael of that ilk who has got Ryanair into a hole and is busy digging. You have to admire the persona of the lovable old oirish country "Paddy", who is in fact the very successful CEO of a billion-pound company (and, I believe, owns 4% of it).

But they were happy days ..............

Danny.

[MPN11]

Ah, Gp Capt Wallace :)

The one bright spot during my time was when a WRNS student walked past him and didn't salute (this was in tbe pre-integration days).

"You .. why didn't you salute me?"
"Because I don't have to, Sir."

ISTR we students drank a few to celebrate that, when the news leaked out!

[Chugalug2]

Danny:-
Chugalug, have never heard of the "Pat O'Leary Line"

it was a nom de guerre adopted by a Belgian Captain MO, Albert Guerisse, who was granted an RN commission having escaped to England. He was captured by the Vichy French having ferried two SOE agents ashore. The boat had foundered while returning to his ship. He gave his name as Pat O'Leary, a Canadian officer friend of his. He was sprung from prison, remained in France to run the Escape Line, and retained the name O'Leary. His exploits can be read here:-

Albert Guerisse (Pat O'Leary) (http://www.rafinfo.org.uk/rafescape/guerisse.htm)

If your cantankerous laptop is in a sulk again Danny, simply Google him. Having survived the Gestapo, the SS, and Dachau, after the war he was heavily decorated by the British being awarded the George Cross, the DSO, and receiving an honorary knighthood. The Belgian King ennobled him, and he retired as a Major General from the Belgian Army having been described as the world's most decorated man for bravery.

[PPRuNeUser0139]

Thanks Chug - I've not been able to watch this Ch 4 programme as yet (hoping it will surface on YouTube before too long) but if watching the story of the Pat O'Leary line (http://www.ww2escapelines.co.uk/?page_id=103) made anyone's feet restless, then there's a re-run over the mountains every July. It's known as the "Chemin de la Liberté (http://www.chemindelaliberte.fr/page-accueil/the-freedom-trail?showall=1&limitstart)" and it would lend itself as an adventure training tool.. assuming the RAF still has the funds to support these activities.

For many years it was run under the inspired leadership of Scott Goodall (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/obituaries/2016/04/25/scott-goodall-comic-book-writer--obituary/), who sadly died last year. His work might be familiar to some here (he was a cartoonist for comics prior to retirement). The "Chemin de la Liberté" couldn't be described as a "walk in the park" - as the route takes participants up to the snowline and across into Spain at 9000'. After taking part in the "Chemin" one year, Ed Stourton (BBC presenter) wrote an excellent account of the wartime escape routes across the Pyrenees called "Cruel Crossing" (available from the usual suspects).

In contrast, the annual Comet walk (always across the 2nd weekend in September) across the same routes used by evading aircrew during WWII in the Pays Basque is less demanding and should be within the capabilities of all serving aircrew (and even most of those of pensionable age!). In 2018, we'll be tracing the spectacular inland route that was used from 1943 on. I've already had notice that several extended families of notable US evaders will be attending.

Yesterday, I posted on our blog* (https://cometepaysbasque.********.fr/) an hour-long documentary (2010) made by Spanish Basques about the Comet Line. There are interviews with RAF evaders (in English) and Belgian guides (in French and English) and even if your French isn't up to snuff, it's a worthwhile and inspiring watch.

At the end, all the key players (some of whom experienced interrogations and the camps) are asked if they'd do it again - and without exception, they all said yes.

* if the link doesn't work, google cometepaysbasque.

[Wander00]

A memory cell tickled - in Spain about 12 years ago near the Mar Menor, having a coffee in a bar and got talking to another Brit couple, telling their woes of having moved all their assets to Spain, house and road not finished then bottom falling out of the market. He and I then realised we had net before, at Shawbury, when I was carrying out the Command Accounts Inspection and he was Senior Naval Officer in the ATC School. Sadly cannot remember is name. Hope it all got sorted for him in the end

[roving]

It would not have been the Naval Officer mentioned above. He had moved to a far far higher altitude long before then.

It is very interesting that when the Royal Air Force inspects Station accounts the task is performed by Royal Air Force personnel.

My younger brother - now retired - had a long history of auditing in the aerospace and defence industry.

About twentyfive years ago he created his own consultancy operation.

His principle client was the Ministry of Defence. I cannot publish the details, but I can comment that on at least one of the sites he periodically visited, security was so tight he could not even take a mobile phone with him.

[Danny42C]

roving (#11339),
..."It is very interesting that when the Royal Air Force inspects Station accounts the task is performed by Royal Air Force personnel"...
Long ago, I was Adj of an Auxiliary F.C.U. Although there were two other Auxiliary units (the Squadron and a Regt Sqdn) on the Station (Thornaby). and they all had "Tea Swindles", for some reason mine attracted all the traffic (could my 70-odd girls possibly have had something to do with it ?) Be that as it may, we prospered mightily.

The Station Accountant Officer had enough on his plate, looking after the Non-Public Funds, and averted his eyes from us. But when I first arrived, I found that our Swindle had been enriching itself with schemes of doubtful legality. Knowing that Nemesis might come one day when I was still "holding the baby", I put a stop to these and enlisted the help of one of my Auxiliary Secretarial Officers (Tom Oliver), who was Asst. Manager of a Darlington Bank. He set up a full set of books for us, opened an account for us in his Bank, and ensured that our Swindle was run in an impeccable way. We were "copper-bottomed".

Some years passed, and then one afternoon, unannouced, there appeared in my office a civilian with a bulky briefcase, who informed me that he had come to audit our Swindle. My first instinct was to "tell him where to go", but my kindly nature came to the fore, and I sat him down with a cup of tea and a bikky, and laid all before him - yea, even to the cash box in my safe, and the little bag of surplus "profit" we could not account for.

Mollified, he went his way satisfied: seems that the little bag of "bunce" convined him of my honesty, when everything is too perfect, they smell a rat ! We parted with assurances of mutual esteem.

Danny.

(Then I got out the "Black Book"....no, just a joke !)

[MPN11]

... deleted. Computer hiccup led to posting same story twice on different threads.

[lasernigel]

Excuse my ignorance or naivety. Re the Comet line, I understand that these brave souls got down to Gibraltar courageously assisted by the French resistance and Spanish sympathisers. But the flight back to England over the Bay of Biscay with occupied France on the starboard side must have been a pretty dangerous flight. Were many of these shot down? What aircraft was the preferred choice?

[Chugalug2]

The default method of moving personnel around the world in WWII was by ship, usually in convoy. That would certainly have been the case here. Gibraltar was a major transit point for Mediterranean bound convoys to/from the UK, and those who got there via the Comet Line wouldn't have had long to wait for a voyage home. Of course, such a voyage was not without danger, but the routeing would have been out to the west, beyond the range of the shorter range Luftwaffe aircraft at least, but Condors, U-boats, surface raiders, etc all posed potential hazard. So did living in the UK of course. It was war, six long years of it...

[PPRuNeUser0139]

Excuse my ignorance or naivety. Re the Comet line, I understand that these brave souls got down to Gibraltar courageously assisted by the French resistance and Spanish sympathisers. But the flight back to England over the Bay of Biscay with occupied France on the starboard side must have been a pretty dangerous flight. Were many of these shot down? What aircraft was the preferred choice?

Nothing to excuse LN - the evaders were driven down to the Embassy at Madrid first (for initial debriefing, clothing, money) in a diplomatic car (reportedly a large Merc!) before onward travel to Gib (where the evaders were stuffed in the boot as they crossed the frontier). Not sure where telegrams home were sent from.

There weren't many sympathisers on the Spanish side - but that's probably because many weren't needed. Paco Iriarte was one notable - he and his Basque family at Sarobe Farm (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/20180+Ergoien,+Gipuzkoa,+Spain/@43.2896262,-1.8281831,146m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0xd51a825bbfa8cb3:0x7839fa562935170f !8m2!3d43.2873051!4d-1.8382674?hl=en) (at Ergoien, near Oiartzun) were one of the very few (<5) active Comet sympathisers. Paco Jr (he was 7 years old at the time) welcomes us each time we arrive there with the same nourishment as was provided to the wartime evaders - soup, tortillas, spicy sausage and rioja..

For the trip to the UK, air travel was frequently used via anything that was available that had the legs - Catalinas, Sunderlands, Hudson, DC-3s were all used. I'm not aware of any shoot-downs involving Comet evaders. Some evaders returned by surface ship - George Duffee, for example, returned by merchant ship from Seville (I'd not known before that it was a port (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seville#Port))

[roving]

sidevalve greatly enjoying your narrative.

[Danny42C]

I think air travel between UK and Gibraltar continued throughout WWII - would be mostly by DC-3/Dakota. There were casualties, Leslie Howard ("Ashley Wilkes" in "Gone with the Wind" - the best film ever IMHO) got shot down in transit in 1943.

Glen Miller was lost in the Channel, but that may have been bad weather.

[Wander00]

Thought they had now established that Glenn Miller's Norseman was "shot down" by a bomb jettisoned from above

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

Wander00 - I agree that the jettison account is the accepted wisdom on that poor little Norseman carrying the great Major Miller to Paris.

Danny - could not agree with you more about the film "Gone with the Wind".

Pub Quiz time now: What was the planned title for the book before MM settled on using "Gone with the Wind"?
If you have a copy of the book on your shelf, here's a clue - look at the last line of the story.
NB I cannot afford a prize for the provider of the correct answer. (Terms & Conditions apply).

Ian BB

PS. Mr Wander00, I now see that some bright spark says that the time of the Lancs. jettison does not match the time of the Norseman in that area of the channel - he says icing is the main suspect. Hey Ho! unless the wreckage is ever identified I guess we will never know.

[lasernigel]

Pub Quiz time now: What was the planned title for the book before MM settled on using "Gone with the Wind"?
If you have a copy of the book on your shelf, here's a clue - look at the last line of the story.
NB I cannot afford a prize for the provider of the correct answer. (Terms & Conditions apply).

"Tomorrow is another day."

More stories from you all is my prize please.

Still trying to ask relatives if anyone knows where my Uncle Fred's logbook is. It will cover his training in Canada and Hurricane 11C training in SA. His entries in Burma will be short as I was told it was only his 3rd mission when he was shot down. I will persevere.

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

lasernigel - has the right answer! "Tomorrow is another day". (Thinks?....nigels are usually ex-BA)

In a noble (old school BA way)? he accepts the Terms & Conditions and only asks for more war stories.

Gentlemen please rummage in your log books for more memories &, as the song says, "enjoy yourselves, enjoy yourselves, (it's later than you think)!

Ian BB

[lasernigel]

(Thinks?....nigels are usually ex-BA)

Not this one unfortunately. Although Uncle mentioned before was a pilot and my Mum's cousin was also and retired as an Air Commodore, Nigel got glasses at 12 putting his dreams as a pilot to rest. Twas a Sgt in REME for 13 years and a RQB1 (S/Sgt) in SOLF.

[roving]

I wonder if I may post a question relating to this wonderful thread, namely how those in service in WWII acquired their flying wings and subsequent war service.

I have in my possession a piece of paper, sadly somewhat crinkled, which is described as a 'Summary of Flying and Assessment" with the Squadron (in this instance 208). It is undated, by I can work out from the name of the C.O. of the Squadron approximate date when it was written.

It contains all sorts of details for example the number of hours flown and the type of sorties flown, then there follows an assessment.

Now for the questions:

1. Was this kind of document common place in the Royal Air Force during and immediately post WWII?

2. What was the purpose of the document?

3. It seems to have been prepared as my father's tour was coming to an end, because it contains a recommendation for his next posting.

4. Since this is not a photocopy, but the original document, was its purpose to simply provide the named officer with a reference/record? Presumably as I hold the original it was not forwarded to anyone concerned with postings.

[Danny42C]

roving (#11352),

Never heard of such a thing. Might've been a "one-off" at the station concerned. Did it have any RAF Form Number at the bottom (eg "F.414A", which they stick in your logbook) ?

All I got was a pair of USAAF silver wings stuck on my scruffy flying overalls (200 hours wear) by a Colonel Julius B. Haddon at Craig Field, Selma, ALA. No documentation AFAIK

Anybody ?

Danny.

[roving]

Danny this was written after some two years operational flying. I will post a copy of it.

It is pointless blocking out his name because of my past posting history.

[Danny42C]

roving,

Clearly a "home produced" document, carbon copy banged off on a typewriter in Flg. Wing Office.

"Exceptional" (Congrats !) .... "Should make good Flight Commander!" ...... Lucky him ! - most "Above Average" pilots were/are "creamed off" for a tour as QFIs.

Danny.

[MPN11]

"Should make good Flight Commander" when already OC "B" Flight??


Nice Assessment, though. I'm sure he was pleased to receive that.

[roving]

"Should make good Flight Commander" when already OC "B" Flight??


Nice Assessment, though. I'm sure he was pleased to receive that.

This why I said it was being written as his tour was finishing. As I posted here some time ago, what followed was a staff course, promotion and then a promotion tour to Iraq as P1. He then demobbed,

So far as the pilot assessment aspect, it originated at the 1 BFTS school. ~It never helped. He was destined to be an instructor for the rest of the war, until he kicked off about it. It was the C.O, at 1 BFTSm who happened to fly into Montrose, that organised his escape to 208 Squadron - The pretext being that the Sqn needed a QFI to help with the conversion from Hurricanes to Mk5 Spits and then to Mk IX Spits.

When he rejoined in 1951 -- after 4 years flying with 613 AAF Squadron, he was current on Vampires

Was he posted to a fighter squadron?

No of course not. He was posted as the CFI at Woodvale teaching on Chipmunks.

He only escaped from that because 267 Squadron, based in KL. needed a QFI able to teach on single and twin engine a/c. He then took over as flight commander.

As an outsider I think the system of postings in the Service leaves a lot to be desired.

[MPN11]

Postings have always been a bone of contention, although in my case (65-94) they made a very sensible career ladder, for which I was grateful. I enjoyed 'round peg, round hole' for most of my time.

I suspect the sheer numbers of people to be juggled post-War, and the vast spectrum of the RAF back then, made things considerably more difficult for the Posters.

[roving]

Postings have always been a bone of contention, although in my case (65-94) they made a very sensible career ladder, for which I was grateful. I enjoyed 'round peg, round hole' for most of my time.
.

As you may know my father was at Shawbury with Marshalls for twenty years -- much of which as Chief Pilot.

When the inspections came around the first topic of conversation would be retention.

My father's advice was abolish the supplementary list, allow pilots to continue to fly beyond age 38 subject to medical fitness, do not post just for the sake of rotation.

It seems his views eventually became 'current'.

There is amusing twist to my father's great age at Marshalls.

The Flt Lt posted to Shawbury to help with the conversion from mark 3 to mark 4 Jet Provosts in the early 1970's, was Bob Garlick. He was at school with me, albeit a couple of years older ;)

[harrym]

Roving, in answer to your #11352 what you have is a copy of RAF form no. 414 (A), for insertion in log books and measuring 6 1/4 x 4 1/2 inches. It is headed SUMMARY of FLYING and ASSESSMENTS FOR YEAR COMMENCING........... , followed by two sections for completion under the sub-headings of ASSESSMENT of ABILITY and ANY POINTS IN FLYING OR AIRMANSHIP WHICH SHOULD BE WATCHED .

Its first appearance in my log book(s) is in February 1944 on completion of SFTS training, and regularly thereafter both annually or on completion of a (flying) course; its last appearance in December 1960, so presumably its use was discontinued from 1961 onwards. All such summaries completed in the UK are on the official form 414a, but those made overseas in 1944/6 are either based on a typed reproduction (as for the SFTS entry, done in Canada) or on a freehand copy as drawn by the log book's owner (then in SE Asia).

[roving]

Roving, in answer to your #11352 .

I am very grateful to you for clearing up the mystery.

Very recently four very large boxes have arrived at my son's house in London -- I am currently living overseas. I rather hope that one of them contains his log books.

[Fareastdriver]

As far as I can see from my log books there was a change to the official RAF Form 414 Pilots Flying Log Book in 1962. My first was the old one with my basic and advanced training and they both have a 414A pasted in at the end of each period.

The 1962 Log Book has all the summaries and assessments near the back pages so the 414A would not have been used

[PPRuNeUser0139]

I've finally caught up with the recent Ch 4 programme on "WWII's Great Escapes: The Freedom Trails". Ep 4 In the Pyrenees.

Its focus is on the "Chemin de la Liberté (http://www.chemindelaliberte.fr/page-accueil/the-freedom-trail?showall=1&limitstart=)" - a route that starts at Saint-Girons (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/09200+Saint-Girons,+France/@42.966782,0.8096042,9z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x12a8cc4f3d53afeb:0x406f69c2f4353b0!8m2!3d4 2.982876!4d1.146088?hl=en) in the Ariège.

Bob Frost, a Wellington rear gunner, evaded via the Comet Line - much further to the west - a far less demanding route than that featured in the programme. Bob was one of the first evaders I ever met down here. :ok:

For those who were unable to catch the programme the first time around, here's a link to it (hope it works):
https://vidnode.net/streaming.php?id=MTE3OTg4&title=WWII%27s%20Great%20Escapes:%20The%20Freedom%20Trails%2 0-%20Season%201

Edited to add: This is a film that Spanish Basques made about the Comet Line in 2011:
https://vimeo.com/170540972
It's in a mixture of languages - but don't give up - it's worth sticking with it.

[harrym]

Roving - re your #11361, hope the log books contain what you are looking for!



What follows is an account of a day at Boscombe Down in February 1956, originally written for 'MagDrop', the journal of the Beverley Association.


Sitting inside the Handling Squadron Offices at Boscombe Down, my colleague and I surveyed the bleak scene outside without enthusiasm; an artic spell of weather had brought the usual British paralysis, and most flying had been suspended. However it was not just the low overcast carried on a bitter east wind, nor the ice and snow largely covering the tarmac, that kept us grounded; additional discouragement was provided by the sight of the Beverley that we hoped to fly standing immobile on the ramp and festooned with icicles. Attempts to remove them seemed to result in the rapid appearance of others, while there were dark hints of meltwater having refrozen in out-of-the-way places housing control rods and cables – so, the immediate future looked bleak in every sense. There in order to familiarise ourselves with the beast prior to undertaking conversion of 47 Squadron at Abingdon, this task appeared infinitely remote.

"That b----y block of flats will never fly" brayed a rather 'blah' voice behind us, "why not fly a real aeroplane, I have just the thing for you airborne bus drivers". Turning, we beheld the fastidious form of 'Dizzy' Steer, the Fleet Air Arm pilot whose task it was to assess naval aircraft. I affected to ignore him on this occasion but, some days later when the weather had improved yet the Beverley was still rooted immovably to the deck for some reason or other, his words returned to haunt me. Anything to get out of this wretched office I thought, going down the passage and banging on his door.

"Thought you would come round, Old Boy" he said cheerily, "afraid I can only offer you a Firefly but it's a super aircraft even if a bit out of date. Here, have a look at Pilots' Notes and come back after lunch". Dubiously perusing the slim booklet back at the Mess it looked simple enough, even though I had previously flown no single larger than a Harvard (and that only briefly). Still, the object was to get airborne and have a bit of fun, and anyway Dizzy would be along to hold my hand. It was a nice day, overcast at about 2500ft. but with good visibility beneath and a light NE wind down the runway, so why not have a go?

"Hello" he said on my return, "the kite's ready and my CPO and his team are waiting for you". I observed that it would help if he could point me towards a parachute. "Better take mine Old Boy" he leered, "I won't need it today". It was like a blow to the stomach, for I suddenly realised that I had been superlatively conned. "What do you mean" I spluttered feebly, "aren’t you coming too?"

"Not on your b----y life Old Boy, surely you don't think I'll fly with someone who hasn't been up in the b----y kite before?" Willing the floor to swallow me up, I despairingly realised that there was no way out; not only was the honour of the RAF at stake, there was no question of allowing myself to be bested by a mere fish-head. So, clipping on the unaccustomed 'chute, I waddled awkwardly towards the flight line.

The wizened old CPO and his team of manically grinning matelots had obviously seen this particular show before, many times; approaching their accursed flying tumbril, the malicious glint in their eyes was only too plain. Clambering inelegantly up the side of what was suddenly a monstrously large aircraft, I was lashed in with excessive zeal, no doubt to forestall any last-minute attempt at escape.

"Right Sir", says the CPO, "when I gives yer thumbs up yer presses that there button an' orf yer goes". Smiling weakly at him as he returned to ground level I ran through the pre-start checks as slowly as was decently possible, finally showing a reluctant thumb above the cockpit edge. Receiving his acknowledgement, I pressed 'that there button' to be answered with a deafening explosion and a dense pall of smoke. Panic-stricken, I fumbled fruitlessly for the harness release thinking that the aircraft had blown up but then noticed the big Rolls-Royce Griffon was turning over sweetly with that lovely staccato music barking from the exhaust stacks; and, as the smoke blew clear, it slowly dawned on me that I had experienced a cartridge starter for the first time (yes, I should have read those Pilots’ Notes more closely!).

Waving the chocks away I commenced taxiing gingerly towards the runway, swinging the nose from side to side in the approved manner. It seemed easier than expected, and even though I was still on the ground some confidence slowly returned. The power check presented no problems, but pre-takeoff checks were repeated several times until the moment of truth could no longer be decently postponed. Sliding the canopy part-closed as the tower gave takeoff clearance I lined up on the runway and slowly opened the throttle, to be answered by a snarling roar that, with its accompaniment of deep orange flame jetting from the stacks, was highly satisfying and stirred within me a previously unsuspected Biggles factor. Even with slightly less than full power applied acceleration was rapid, and in what appeared to be no time at all a gentle backward pressure on the column achieved lift-off, the wheels retracting into the wings beneath as I climbed away.

It has to be said that the rest of the story is rather anticlimactic. Flying beneath the overcast, I unexpectedly found that I was hugely enjoying myself. Coming from the closed world of Transport Command, where one was hardly allowed to set eyes on an unfamiliar aircraft without having first completed a ground school course of interminable length, now with no previous instruction of any kind I had a totally alien bird all to myself. The contrast was so extreme as to be almost ridiculous.

By instinct a straight & level pilot, I satisfied myself with bumbling about the local area and staying beneath the cloud deck meanwhile. After half an hour or so I headed back towards the field to carry out a few circuits and landings, but the Firefly seemed almost to land itself; better pack it in, I thought, before destroying the illusion.

Arriving back at the ramp in a euphoric mood, I sensed (probably unjustly) an air of disappointment on the CPO's part at my evident good spirits. However Dizzy was in no way put out, accepting as perfectly proper that any pilot should be able to climb into a completely strange aircraft and fly it without further ado; in fact I was mildly surprised not to be asked to write up a précis on the Firefly's handling characteristics, normal procedure for a test pilot.

What has all this to do with the Beverley, I hear voices ask. Not very much at all really, except that its unserviceability presented me with an opportunity of the sort that comes only once in a lifetime, and so I remain eternally in its debt. Over sixty years later I can still hear that V12's rasping roar and recall with pleasure the Firefly's crisp, vice-free handling, an experience granted now only to a select handful of display pilots; it also gives some small satisfaction that the Royal Navy's base attempt to faze the RAF was met head-on and duly foiled (well sort of, anyway).


A pilot with experience of the Firefly alleged that I have over-praised it, and that it was something of a cow to handle. Be that as it may, after some years of that arch-pig the Hastings Mk1 even a brick s---house would have appeared to fly like a dream.


A couple more pieces featuring the Beverley will appear in due course, but require some editing first.

[Geriaviator]

Another story to read and re-read, thank you Harry!

[roving]

#sidevalve

Thank you for the link. Shocking that a British petty thief named Cole betrayed so many.

#harrym

(edit) What interesting aircraft the Royal Nay have had over the years ;)

I just hope they are still in existence. Whether I am any better informed after studying them is of less importance than that I can pass them onto my children for safekeeping.

My Uncle, my father's younger brother, was with the British Army 11TH ARMOURED DIVISION from landing in France shortly after D-Day to entering Bergen Belsen in April 1945. He and my father agreed that neither would never ever speak about the war. In fact when I was spent time with my father very shortly before he died, he told me his brother had visited him and for the first time they had talked about the war including Bergen Belsen. This encouraged my father to answer just a few questions before he asked me to find on my laptop websites containing photographs of the many different models of cars he had owned. One of his favourites being a Volvo P1800S.

[Danny42C]

harrym (#11364),

Glad to know that that I'm not the only one to be scared out of his wits by a first experience of a Coffman Starter ! (not only the bang but the Spit's stab at a roll on the spot !)

Yes, the old belief that "Anybody can fly anything after half an hour with Pilot's Notes" lasted a long time ("Aircraft innit ? - Pilot ain'cher ? - Fly it !)

But the ATA managed just fine.

Danny.

[Fareastdriver]

How many times have you jumped into a hire car and wished that you had read the owners handbook, if it was there, before you were trying to work out what switches did what at the first junction.

[DHfan]

I heard about a similar experience with a Coffman starter from a now departed acquaintance in my local.

As a National Serviceman in the early fifties he was an engine fitter in the RAF and was posted to Singapore, tending mainly Mosquitos, Hornets and Vampires.
IIRC, an RNZAF squadron equipped with Venoms was posted to the same airfield and came under Doug's care.

Apparently he found out - very suddenly - that the DH Ghost in the Venom had a cartridge starter. When he pressed the start button, there was a loud bang, a cloud of smoke and he was out of the cockpit and off down the runway at a rate of knots.

As an aside, I once took him to the DH Museum at London Colney. Although he'd never really thought about it, having worked on Vampires and Venoms he'd always assumed the Sea Vixen, being of a similar configuration, was basically a further development of the same aircraft.

I can't remember his exact words when confronted with the enormous beast, and even if I could I couldn't post it here, but it was very loud and and the first word began with F...

[ricardian]

It's the Daily Wail but it is pertinent to WW2 and flying.

How British engineers dodged German snipers' bullets to build 74 airstrips in 90 DAYS across Normandy battlefields to help defeat the Nazis (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4969414/UK-engineers-dodged-Nazi-snipers-build-French-airstrips.html)

[ICM]

Back to Escape Lines for a moment, and further to my #11119, I see that today's Times has published an obituary for Halifax pilot John Evans. Not surprisingly, it concentrates on his evasion story:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/john-evans-53w055jj3?shareToken=d18c385187c7860c88076f256f113657

[Fareastdriver]

The Provost T1 I did my basic training on had a Coffman starter. When you walked out the magazine would be on the starboard wing root. You starting airman would, or would supervise you, placing it in the starter. Then one would close the cowl and continue the walkround.

The starting procedure, after ensuring the fuel cock was open, was to wrap your left arm around the control stick to keep the elevators up with the hand on the central, instructor's, throttle. The right hand would be down on the starter lever with the thumb on the priming button.

About an inch with the throttle and between two and five seconds on the primer depending on how cold the engine was. Pull up the lever which would fire the cartridge and then there would be a few seconds juggling the throttle and primer until the engine settled down at about 1,200 rpm.

Wait for it to warm up; throttle back to idle, a quick mag. check and chocks away.

U/T pilots could do this with less then ten hours total. Where's the drama? Even the Chipmunk had a wire operated Coffman starter.

[PPRuNeUser0139]

Back to Escape Lines for a moment, and further to my #11119, I see that today's Times has published an obituary for Halifax pilot John Evans. Not surprisingly, it concentrates on his evasion story:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/john-evans-53w055jj3?shareToken=d18c385187c7860c88076f256f113657
I'm sorry ICM that I missed your #11119 the first time around.. (I can't access the Times).

His crew:

http://www.cometeline.org/Hasselt-halifax-avi.jpg

Camping out at Daverdisse (https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/6929+Daverdisse,+Belgium/@50.0077851,5.1009257,11.25z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x47c1d0a79c042a57:0x40099ab2f4d6530!8m2!3d5 0.0202615!4d5.1182212?hl=en) in the Ardennes.. (too dangerous to travel to SW France by train after D-Day)

http://www.cometeline.org/D000%20Daverdisse.jpg
Here's John Evans' Comet file.. give your French a work out:
French version (http://www.cometeline.org/ficheD070.html)...
or try the Google translate English version (https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cometeline.org%2FficheD070.html&edit-text=)..
I hope that he knew just how much men like him are respected.
Could I ask you to copy his Times obit here please? Many thanks..
sv

[ICM]

Sidevalve: That link contains a 'Share Token' that permits it to be seen beyond the Times paywall. Or does that not work outside the UK? If not, I'll see what can be done about putting it here.

[roving]

John Evans
Halifax bomber pilot whose plane was hit over Belgium and who spent more than 100 days evading capture, helped by the resistance

October 13 2017, 12:01am,
The Times

The Royal Air Force bomber pilot John Evans, front centre, with his crew
Share
Save
As John Evans struggled to get out of his burning Halifax bomber he realised with horror that his parachute was not on his back — and was about to fall out of the aircraft without him. The parachute pack had become dislodged from the hook on which it was kept while Flight Sergeant Evans was at the controls. It was now lying right at the edge of the open front escape hatch. Evans, who was only a little over 5ft 7in, scrambled towards it, clipped it to his parachute harness and jumped through the escape hatch.

As he tumbled into the darkness he watched the blazing aircraft dive into the ground. Only moments earlier he and his crew had been attacked by a Messerschmitt 110. A few minutes before that they had delivered their bomb load on the railway marshalling yards at Hasselt. It was May 12, 1944, Evans was on his 12th mission, and the land below him was Belgium, occupied by the Nazis for four years.

Spinning through the night air, Evans’s parachute opened with such a jerk that one of his flying boots was wrenched off. He saw a wood rushing up to meet him, crashed through the tops of a cluster of fir trees, and landed gently on the ground. The parachute had tangled in branches and acted as a brake on his fall.

Sitting in the darkness, Evans thought of his parents at home in Wales, who would soon get a message to say that he was missing, and then of his friends on the squadron who would be at Betty’s Bar in York later, drinking beer and wondering about the friends who had not returned from the last mission.

As daylight dawned Evans approached a farm labourer on the road. He explained in schoolboy French that he was an English airman. When the man replied in Flemish, Evans shrugged, said, “Bonjour,” and headed off. The man then pointed towards the direction Evans was walking and shouted: “Boches!” It was a word that they both understood, and Evans hurried in the other direction. Eventually he took a risk and knocked on the door of a farmhouse. He got lucky. The couple would help him, despite the risks to themselves and their seven children. They fed him and contacted a member of the resistance. Soon afterwards Evans’s bomb aimer, Flying Officer Bill “Robbie” Robertson, who had been found in the woods, was brought into the farmhouse.

They had fallen into the hands of people linked to the Comet evasion line and to the armed resistance, the Armée Blanche. He and Robertson were given bicycles and taken by a group of men to Zonhoven, where they met Baron de Villenfagne, a local resistance leader, and René Jaspers, his dedicated helper. Jaspers took them to an underground hideout dug into a steep bank deep in the wood. They were soon joined by three other members of Evans’s crew.

The resistance allowed the airmen to stay in one place for only a few days. At one time they were housed by an elderly widow, Louise Delchef, who hated the Nazis and wanted to prove it to Evans. She took him into the attic and showed him a stash of machineguns and revolvers, which she kept under the tiles on her roof. One day, the old woman said, she would use them against the Boches.

The man pointed and shouted: ‘Boches!’ a word they both understood
After D-Day the airmen were transferred to the village of Beffe in the Ardennes, where they stayed with a young married couple. One morning the Germans launched a massive search for four members of the Armée Blanche, and Evans and the other airmen were forced to flee out of the back window of the house. Behind them a gun battle broke out in which three of the resistance were killed and a German officer seriously wounded. The fourth resistance man remained hidden in a cellar.

With the Allies now moving through northern France, the resistance created a camp for about 30 evaders near Bohan sur Semois, a small town on the French border. On the road the airmen could hear the rumble of German vehicles as their armies retreated. Food was scarce so sometimes they had to cut chunks of meat from horses killed by strafing aircraft.

When the American army entered Bohan, Evans swam the River Semois and introduced himself to a young soldier. He finally returned to Britain on September 9, four months after he had left. His parents in Goodwick, Pembrokeshire, had feared he was dead.

Born into a seafaring family in 1919, John Evans was the fourth of five children. He had an older brother, Cyril, two older sisters, Mair and Enid, and a younger brother, Doug.

After his return to Britain, Evans was posted to Transport Command and tasked with delivering Wellington aircraft to north Africa. On his first leave after his escape he met a young woman named Jeanne Thomas and they married in February 1946, five weeks after he had been demobbed.

He worked for many years for HM Customs and Excise, first at Fishguard Harbour and then from 1959 in Liverpool. He and Jeanne lived on the Wirral until her death in 1998, when Evans moved to Calverton, Nottinghamshire, to be near his daughter, Judith.

Summers were often spent tracking down the people who had helped to save his life, travelling with Jeanne, his brother Doug and Doug’s wife, Dorothy. They discovered from Jaspers that parts of Evans’s wrecked plane had been turned into saucepans and cooking pots by enterprising locals. Jaspers had survived incarceration in Neuengamme concentration camp, but others who had helped Evans had been killed.

Evans’s family, including Judith, a retired social research consultant, and Richard, an engineer, are still in contact with the families of some of those who helped him.

A peace-loving and humble man who enjoyed painting watercolours and played the piano by ear, Evans was acutely aware of, and a little haunted by, the controversy that Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur Harris’s bombing campaign attracted after the war, but he felt that “it could not properly be judged in hindsight through civilian eyes”.

John Evans, RAF pilot, was born on June 30, 1919. He died of congestive heart failure on August 4, 2017, aged 98

[harrym]

Danny (#11364) I later had a demo of an alternative means of engine start, thanks to a failure of the Coffman article............


During a regular TCEU visit to Aden in the early sixties, I was ordered to categorise the Twin Pioneer squadron commander. Having no Twin Pin experience whatsoever I was not over-happy with this situation, but consoled myself with the knowledge that he already held a "B" category and was therefore presumably fairly competent.

And so it proved. The circuit work was an eye-opener, and included a backwards flight demonstration achieved by flying at minimum airspeed (something absurd like 35 knots max) into a strong headwind at circuit height. Opportunities for a route check were limited to a choice of up-country strips so, never having been to Dhala, I decided to see it from an aircraft for which restricted field length held no terrors.

Checking in at the appointed hour, I was advised that my presence would render the aircraft overweight. An easy solution was found by giving the navigator an afternoon off, the Captain saying (truthfully) that the TP knew its way without human assistance. In view of the circumstances I raised no objection, being well aware that in this theatre rules had to be bent more than occasionally if the job were to get done, and recalled an occasion six months before when I had expressed surprise on boarding an engines-running Bev and found two of the oil pressure gauges reading zero. On my remarking this to the captain (the wingco flying no less), he pointed out that if they were forced to await spares from UK at least half the fleet would be grounded; besides, oil pressures must be OK or the engines would surely stop, a logic with which I was forced to agree.

The Twin Pin CO had of course been to Dhala countless times before, so following a very short transit we were soon on the slightly alarming final approach toward that forbidding rock face at the runway’s far end; offloading of the cargo was a fairly swift process, so we were soon back inside. Now the Twin Pioneer had a bang-start system, with a rotating magazine holding about half a dozen cartridges positioned on the cabin partition above and behind the captain's head. Following firing-up of the first engine the magazine had to be rotated, this achieved by the pilot reaching behind with his right hand and pulling on a sort of lavatory chain arrangement. No problem with the starboard engine, but subsequent pulling of the chain resulted only in a string of curses for apparently the magazine had failed to index properly. A quick investigation revealed it to be immovable; "feel like staying the night here?" I was asked, "not much I can do about this, and it's too late to get help from Khormaksar". Having heard lurid tales of small men with long knives who reputedly lurked unseen thereabouts, I enquired what his local knowledge might suggest. "There is a way out", he replied," but highly unofficial and definitely not approved of even in Aden". Saying I had been party to the breaking of a few rules already, I intimated that one more sin would make no difference to me.

"Stay here, and press the booster coil button when I give you the sign"; saying which, he exited the aircraft with a large coil of rope round his shoulder in the manner of a hangman off to a job. Finding some steps lying around, he gave one end of the rope several turns round the port propeller boss and walked off to the side, hailing the inevitable solitary Arab squatting on a nearby rock: ‘...hey, Ali, come and give us a hand’. Receiving his sign, I pressed the button while he and his companion hauled vigorously on the rope, the engine burst into life, and with a wave to Ali he came back inside. In no time at all we were off again, carrying out a mail drop somewhere en route. The actual disgorging of the bags fell to me, but at this distance in time I recall little about the process other than getting covered in dust; I rather think the bags were ejected through a hatch in the floor. All in all, the whole trip was completely and utterly different from the Shiny Fleet way of things that was then my usual lot; not just a window on a different way of life, but also an interlude that much increased my respect for those to whom it was routine.

[Fareastdriver]

Another trick I saw in Borneo with a Twin Pin was a lacrosse like arrangement which was hooked around a propeller blade so as to swing it into life.

IIRC the Twin Pins of Borneo Airways had electric starters.

[roving]

harrym

Did your TCEU visits take you to KL?

Sandy Johnstone's sinecure in KL was air defence commander, a role which he claimed did much to improve his golf.

When Malaya became independent in 1957, and formed its own air force, he became its founding senior officer. The pride of the fleet was a Twin Pin. I think it was the only one based in KL at that time.

He was a man of great charm especially with the wives and one day invited some of the wives to a flight on it.

Whilst I recall my late mother talking about it, I cannot recall whether she actually accepted the invitation. I suspect not, but I could be wrong.

My dad used to enjoy personally taking the mail over to Royal Dutch Shell in Borneo in a single pin. He told me that the sea was so clear he could see shoals of sharks.

Next week I will post about his flight to a jungle fort, fort Langkap, with the adjutant general in the back.

A flight which nearly ended badly.

There are wonderful colour slides of that sortie, but not in a format I can upload.

[PPRuNeUser0139]

A peace-loving and humble man who enjoyed painting watercolours and played the piano by ear, Evans was acutely aware of, and a little haunted by, the controversy that Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur Harris’s bombing campaign attracted after the war, but he felt that “it could not properly be judged in hindsight through civilian eyes”.

I think that's one of the best explanations of the bombing campaign I've ever come across.
roving - many thanks for posting the obit..
You're right ICM - I am able to access the Times - I'd become so used to banging my head on the firewall that I didn't check your link. Me pudeat..
sv

[ICM]

SV: No problem, and I'm encouraged to know that those Tokens travel so well. And thanks in turn for the Comet Line link. And now back to Harry's stories ......

[Danny42C]

harrym (#11376),

Have heard of this "pullee-haulee" method used to start a Dakota: in this case I believe a LandRover was used to haul the rope. Can't remember place or time.

Danny.

[DFCP]

[QUOTE=ICM;9923902]Sidevalve: That link contains a 'Share Token' that permits it to be seen beyond the Times paywall. Or does that not work outside the UK? If not, I'll see what can be done about putting it here.[/QUOTE
Got it ok in the US
Tks
[email protected]

[roving]

As is evident from HarryM's wonderful post of flying Harold Wilson when he was PM and his role with the Central Flying School's Transport Command Examining Unit he too was a Cat A pilot.

How fortunate those following this thread are to have contributions from such a highly skilled pilot.

This from Flight International in June 1957.

https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1957/1957%20-%200871.PDF

[Geriaviator]

https://s20.postimg.org/9se0uqinh/battles_in_snow.jpg

Re starting techniques, a reminder of posts relating to my father's service in France, winter 1939/40, when 12 and 142 Sqns were based in a field at Berry-au-Bac, under canvas in temperatures down to -20C. The RR Merlins in their Fairey Battles objected to these low temperatures and had to be run for 10 minutes every hour to prevent the oil from solidifying. They had only a few trolley-accs so each engine was started by three men on a rope, with a leather cap placed over the airscrew tip, hopefully thrown off as the engine fired.

Note the empty bomb trolley, the aircraft were bombed up during daylight hours, and the bowser trailer with its rear compartment containing a Lister or Petters donkey engine for petrol pumping. Similar trailers were still fuelling 9, 12, 101 and 617 Sqn Lincolns at Binbrook in 1950.

[DFCP]

Two stories from the past.
In the 80, s an ex RCAF Spitfire pilot invited me to have dinner with another ex Spitfire pilot---a Pole.
Dinner was at the rotating restaurant at the top of the tower overlooking Niagara Falls. The Pole was I/c maintenance of the tower and his duties included photographing any who chose to commit suicide off the tower.
A few years later I got a newspaper account of a court case. The Pole had taken friends up in a Cessna, low flown over his garden and beheaded ,with his wing tip, his next door neighbour---an ex RCAF WW2 bomber pilot.
Convicted of manslaughter the Pole spent several years in jail
Next newspaper account--now out of jail -the Pole had helped a friend start his aircraft by swinging the prop. It kicked back, hit him on the head and he was killed.
On to the next.
An ex USN WW2 pilot dabbled in aviation reporting. He was invited to participate in a record breaking flight by two KC135, s.
The aircraft were to leave Westover base in Mass.Both were to overhead NYC and proceed to
London. The second aircraft would then return to NYC without landing in London.
It was a hot summer day and the flights were to leave in the early evening.
Paul was assigned to the round trip 135 and during an afternoon briefing it transpired that the gross weight on that aircraft was a record.
That aircraft never got airborne and all on board were killed.
The next issue of Time had a photo of the steps up to the ill fated aircraft. Paul was coming down with his luggage!

[roving]

On to the next.
An ex USN WW2 pilot dabbled in aviation reporting. He was invited to participate in a record breaking flight by two KC135, s.
The aircraft were to leave Westover base in Mass.Both were to overhead NYC and proceed to
London. The second aircraft would then return to NYC without landing in London.
It was a hot summer day and the flights were to leave in the early evening.
Paul was assigned to the round trip 135 and during an afternoon briefing it transpired that the gross weight on that aircraft was a record.
That aircraft never got airborne and all on board were killed.
The next issue of Time had a photo of the steps up to the ill fated aircraft. Paul was coming down with his luggage!


Details the flight number of the one that crashed.

Crash of a Boeing KC-135A-BN Stratotanker at Westover AFB: 15 killed | B3A Aircraft Accidents Archives (http://www.baaa-acro.com/1958/archives/crash-of-a-boeing-kc-135a-bn-stratotanker-at-westover-afb-15-killed/)

[Danny42C]

roving (#11383),
..."How fortunate those following this thread are to have contributions from such a highly skilled pilot"...
This goes for almost every topic which is aired on this wonderful Thread - there is always someone "on frequency" who genuinely knows everything about it and is willing to share that knowledge with us.

[harrym]

To all readers - re my recent #11376, checking back on previous posts I find it to be a virtual repeat of one posted early January 2015 and so must crave forgiveness for inflicting boredom on followers of this thread (will in future take more care!).

Roving, in reply to your #11381 I never visited KL in a TCEU capacity, only occasionally in my FEC Sqdn Hastings.

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

Esteemed Harry, your last:

"To all readers - re my recent #11376, checking back on previous posts I find it to be a virtual repeat of one posted early January 2015 and so must crave forgiveness for inflicting boredom on followers of this thread (will in future take more care!)".

I can't remember what happened at 20.15 yesterday, so I am not bored by something that you posted "early January 2015."

"Crave forgiveness" indeed! A good tale is always worthy of repetition, please do not deprive us of any of your memories - post away Harry!

Ian BB

[Geriaviator]

Harry, I join Ian's sentiments. As I said earlier, I read and re-read your stories which delight everyone on this thread, please keep 'em coming!

[harrym]

Ian BB & Geriaviator, your kind comments are much appreciated. Rest assured that further scribblings will appear, but first I must run a check on what has gone before - to repeat oneself once is perhaps excusable, but definitely becomes boring if done habitually!

[roving]

harrym's style of writing reminds me of my father.

These skilled pilots are invariably very reserved.

My father could make a point in an understated way but which left no-one in any doubt as to his opinion.

This being an example.

I recall after the accident at East Midlands I telephoned my father the following day. He just simply and quietly said 'I hope they turned off the correct engine'.

In those few words he of course provided the explanation that the subsequent AAIB enquiry established.

In early 1951 when the Korean war drained the pool of Royal Air Force fighter pilots, the Aux Air Squadrons were pressed into service. 613 Squadron equipped with Vampires was the first in the North West to be called-up.

As this newsreel at 8mins 31 secs makes clear, in 1951, Royal Air Force Vampires patrolled over Holland.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djINBkPEb-o&t=519

Vampires, like Spitfires, unless fitted with drop tanks had a limited range.

One day he was patrolling over Holland in bad weather. Fog, I think he said, and the fighter controllers could not give him a fix. When eventually he worked out where he was he knew that he had insufficient fuel for a normal flight back to Ringway.

"So what did you do?" I asked

He replied " I knew that I would use much less fuel if I took it up to the ceiling and at that height I could glide it in, if I ran out of fuel before I got back".

He then demonstrated using his hand his near vertical descent into Ringway to ensure sufficient speed for a safe landing.

No ejector seats on that model of Vampire of course, as Danny will attest to.

Although he said he had had several "incidents" when he was at the controls, the only other two he shared were:

1. In the late 1940's, again with 613 Squadron, he was performing a barrel roll in a Spitfire near Chester, when he lost a spark plug which had not been tightened properly. He managed to get it down at Hawarden. He did admit that he had chain smoked a few ciggies after that flight.

2. When taking off at Shawbury in a Jet Provost, with an observer, in the 1960's, there was a problem with the engine -- at the time he suspected a birdstrike -- but he later said it was 'something else'. without saying what the something else was. He knew that the safety barrier was up and made the instant decision to make full use of it. He hit it at speed. There is a photograph in this link of the Shawbury safety barrier after someone else made full use it.

https://goo.gl/fE5TZR

His crash landing in helicopter into the jungle of Malaya, when travelling as a passenger, I will leave for another time.

[Danny42C]

roving (#11392),

Thank you for the links, which gave (may I say), a rather "over-egged" description of WWII flying training ! Good fun to watch, though, haven't worked my way through them all yet, treat in store !

..."These skilled pilots areinvariably very reserved".. Lets me out, then - I can "talk the hind leg off a donkey" !

..."I hope they turned off the correct engine''... The 1989 Kegworth disaster, I take it (Wikipedia gives an account of it). Having absolutely no knowledge of the aircraft involved or civil procedures, it seemed to me at the time that the crew would've been much better off without vibration meters on the panel. Then (I would have supposed), they would've cleared the airway, pulled back both to Flight Idle, then advanced the thrust levers one at a time to see which was the "bad" engine.

There were stories (which Wiki does not repeat) that pax saw flames coming out of the (defective) No.1, drew the attention of the cabin staff, but it was not reported to the Flight Deck.

Be that as it may, they mistakenly decided that the No.2 was at fault, closed it down and diverted to Castle Donington. On the descent the No.1 (which would be on much reduced power), behaved itself, and it was only at the very end, when they increased power on it, that it died the death. There was no time to restart the "good" No.2, the Wiki picture shows how close to safety they got - but not close enough. RIP.

I must emphasise that the only twin I've ever flown was the Meteor, and it would be a dumb bunny indeed not to know which one had gone on that!

Hindsight is all too easy: which of us cannot put a hand on heart and say: "There, but for the Grace of God, go I ?"

Yes, your Dad would go much further high up, and the Vampire would glide quite nicely, but whether he would reach Ringway would be in the Lap of the Gods. ..... No "bang seats" for us, as you say. ..... Do not remember any Auxiliary Squadrons being "embodied" in 1951 to allow Regular squadrons to "have a go" in Korea (I was with - but not "on" 608 at the time). ISTR that only RAAF Meteors took part in that, and they were so outclassed by the Mig-15 (powered by reverse-engineered "Nenes" [kindly supplied to Russia by the Attlee Govt, and passed on via China], that they were delegated to Ground Attack).

Lost a plug in a Stearman in training once: the noise and vibration are horrendous ....... Yes, barriers work ! ... Know nowt about helicopters.

Danny.

[roving]

Danny

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1951/1951%20-%201401.html?search=613%20squadron

In fact the London Gazette records that the year before, in early 1950, my father's war substantive rank was restored. This may be because 613 AAF became at that time as Reserve Fighter Command Squadron.

[Danny42C]

roving (#11394),

Ah, there we have it ("early 1950") - I did not come into contact with 608 until October, 1951. Don't remember anything said about it. But thanks for the link all the same.

The redoubtable Sir Basil put paid to my aspirations of a General List P.C. in 1952. Not that it would have mattered, CMB would have put the stoppers on me in any case.

C'etait la vie !

Danny.

[Rossian]

.....last week whilst visiting family in Kent I (very) briefly met a 94 yr old ex-RAF pilot called Buster. He would fit in here a treat. Apropos of not a lot my friend asked him if he'd had his flu jab. No, he hadn't and explained that he'd been taken off usual flying duties to pilot Horsa gliders for Arnhem. He got a bad attack of flu and missed the op. All his fellow course members were killed.
"I owe my life to flu" he said "so I'm never going to have a jab!" Not a view I'd completely support but I understood what he meant.
He had gone through the Arnold scheme too. I'm not sure that he has a computer so how I could let him read bits of this thread I'm not sure (see my location).
Any suggestions?

The Ancient Mariner
PS Both the ladies with us agreed that he had a wicked gleam in his eye and might have been a bit of a tearaway as a young man (which they seemed to approve of!)

[Danny42C]

Rossian (#11396),
..."Any suggestions?"...
Can someone living nearby get the old boy over and show him what he's missing ? (I assume he has no internet connection).

Bet they'll have to wrestle the lap top away from him ! (that's how I was sucked in). I'm 96 next month, if I can do it, so can he. Which Arnold Class was he in ?

Danny42C (class of).

[OffshoreSLF]

.....
I'm not sure that he has a computer so how I could let him read bits of this thread I'm not sure (see my location).
Any suggestions?


Anybody that you know have a tablet or even a smart phone? These gadgets are able to access the internet via a mobile phone signal, and, although probably not ideal, would at least be able to show him this wonderful thread

[Icare9]

A bit more info on where in Kent might allow someone to contact Buster.......
Be a shame if his memories were to be lost forever...

[Rossian]

....thanks for your responses chaps. I have found a lady who pops in to see him from time to time and she has volunteered to fetch him over to her place to use her PC. I will send her details of how to get to this thread.
Where? Within 5 miles of Heathfield-ish E Sussex. I don't have his address and obviously wouldn't pass it out without his permission.
He definitely doesn't have a computer and no it skills. But he still climbs ladders to the top of his apples trees and they are big. Nurse!!
I have another possible thread to follow to get to him. I shall pursue it later this PM.
I rather enjoy trying to knit people together at long range. When it does work it's quite satisfying.

The Ancient Mariner

[harrym]

This is part one of some musings on that unique, loveable and occasionally exasperating monster the Beverley; part two, with some reflections on its operation, to follow shortly.


"Sure as Hell won't replace the airplane" one bemused Yank is said to have expostulated on first beholding a Beverley; well maybe not, but equally certain was that, in its time, no mere aeroplane could conceivably have taken its place. During a relatively short life it performed more useful work, in often arduous and highly demanding environments, than many other types achieve in life spans several times the length. This year has seen the sixty-first anniversary of its introduction to service, a good time to recall memories fond or otherwise.

With a glider ancestry dating back to WW2, the Beverley was a development of the General Aircraft Company's GAL 60 Universal Freighter. Before this aircraft could make a first flight its parent company was taken over by the Blackburn Aircraft Co, who conveyed the prototype in pieces to a new home at Brough; here it was duly assembled, and a successful first flight carried out in June 1950. By this time the Air Ministry spec to which it was built had been upgraded, and to meet this an improved version was produced and first flown in June 1953; with four Bristol Centaurus engines in place of the original Hercules, plus other changes such as rear clamshell doors and a tail boom offering passenger accommodation, this resulted in an initial RAF order for twenty aircraft that was later increased to a total of forty-seven.

The first unit to re-equip with the Beverley, no 47 Sqdn of RAF Abingdon, received its initial delivery in March 1956; the following year 53 Sqdn was similarly equipped, and for the next decade the noisy giant was a familiar UK sight as it bumbled its way around the Thames Valley and many other areas. In the same year the Beverley became established at Dishforth, where 242 OCU became responsible for crew training; here, 30 Sqdn also re-equipped with the aircraft but moved to Nairobi two years later. The first overseas unit to acquire them was 84 Sqdn at Aden in mid-1958, followed by 48 Sqdn (Singapore), where they were later transferred to a newly-formed 34 Sqdn. From these four bases the Beverleys not only carried out multifarious tasks within their respective theatres, they also ranged far & wide; distant places that witnessed unlikely arrivals of this strange creature included Canada, Australia, Hong Kong, New Zealand, and South Africa.

Despite its many virtuous qualities, even the Beverley's most fervent aficionados would hardly claim speed as one of them. However reports of trains overtaking it can possibly be discounted, although an encounter with to-day's TGV or equivalent would be a different story. Short hauls were no great hardship, but of necessity it had frequently to undertake long-range flights for one reason or another; that many of these derived from the RAF's absurd attempts to use it as a Hastings replacement, was of little consolation to those who suffered hours of mind-numbing boredom as a result.

For the pilots tedium was alleviated by the need for hand-flying, no autopilot being (initially) fitted; after all, was it not designed for short-range work? (pity no-one told Transport Command). The Navigation & Radio empires were adept at upholding the noses-to-grindstone principle, arguably with some less than essential tasks. Running up and down ladders with trays of refreshment kept the quartermasters fit & alert, the flight deck's thirst-provoking climate in particular seeing to that. Flight engineer? - for its first few years of operation there were none, but their omission was soon seen as a gross error and they gradually became established and valued crew members.

The Centaurus engine's voracious and legendary thirst for oil was a constant nuisance, so that during the longer "drags" it was necessary to hand-pump this commodity from the reserve tank to the engines - a task accomplished in a noisome hole in rear of the flight deck, where both temperature and decibel readings were normally off-scale. It was an exhausting chore, rendered worse by the impossibility of using oxygen in an oily environment. Visitors to the flight deck were encouraged, in the sly hope that they might then be conned into becoming oil pumpers; sometimes the ruse was successful, but unfortunately seldom worked a second time. Why an electric pump could not have been provided (with the hand pump as back-up) is another of those little Beverley mysteries - along with the lack of a galley, no autopilot etc etc.

Versatility was the Beverley's main attribute, and this applied not only to loads carried but also to its operational usage. Designed as it was for short range, short-field work, its slow cruising speed would hardly have suggested it as ideal for longer stages, yet here again it proved its worth where no other type could cope: helicopters to Aden, artillery pieces, cattle (!), bulk fuel and a radar scanner during the Suez affair, state coaches for a ceremony in Helsinki, large vehicles anywhere----even dismantled fighter aircraft (Hunter/Gnat), you name it the Bev took it. With today's B747 freighters, not to mention the Guppy variants, this is now commonplace stuff, but we are describing a time sixty years ago; even today's C130 might have a problem coping with those lumpy, bumpy, inadequate strips that the Beverley took in its stride.

But the Bev did not have to land to discharge its load. Much liked by parachutists, especially for an easy exit provided by the tail boom hatchway, vast tonnages of freight were also delivered by 'chute. This was achieved by removal of the rear clamshell doors, thus providing a 10ft x 10ft exit from the similarly dimensioned 40ft long cargo hold, from which palletised loads were extracted by drag 'chutes. The aircraft's capabilities in this direction were of particular use during the Indonesian crisis, where Borneo's jungle-covered terrain necessitated much re-supply by airdrop. Loads delivered were of infinite variety, ranging from a single item of more than 40,000lb to a consignment of cats required to combat rat infestation. During early trials on Salisbury Plain, a Saracen armoured car thus delivered contrived to emerge without deployment of parachutes; perhaps it is there yet, a buried artefact for the delectation of future archaeologists?

It's perhaps pertinent to mention here that the clamshell doors were an Achilles heel of the basic design; for, as compared with the C130's bottom-hinged rear door that could be operated in flight and also served as a loading ramp on the ground, the Beverley's doors had to be removed before flight and substituted (for aerodynamic reasons) with a pair of fixed deflector plates. All of this took time, with the resultant drag degrading the already indifferent performance even further, while there remained the problem of vehicular access; this taken care of by a pair of narrow portable ramps that had to be carried on board and then manually fitted as required.

[pulse1]

As this thread has been evolving over quite a few years now I wondered if Roving's mention of 613 Sqdn R.Aux.A.F. might trigger some stories of the weekend warriors who graced our skies until 1957.

As an ATC cadet I used to spend many Saturdays unofficially helping to refuel the Vampires and Meteor T7 of 614 Sqdn at RAF Llandow. They also had one Meteor 8 but it was a bit of a hangar queen as, I was told, most of the pilots were scared of the ejector seat. As a naive schoolboy it seemed to me a wonderful way to spend one's life, being a normal civilian during the week and then hurtling around the skies at the weekends. Even in my casual role I was aware of some fascinating events and would have loved to hear the full stories. e.g. the Vampire which landed short and dragged the perimeter fence halfway across the airfield. Although there was no obvious damage to the aircraft, after that the JPT consistently rose above limits and no-one could understand why.

Any weekend warriors out there? Let's hear your stories.

[MPN11]

Nice dit, HarryM ... looking forward to more about the strange beast of my memories.

As a baby plt off, at an Air Show at Koksyde, I was given the job of showing visitors around one in return for my free weekend abroad (as a Varsity pax ex-Strubby).

The subsequent events with a French lass on the beach at De Panne are not fit for public consumption. ;)

[Danny42C]

harrym (#11401),

I have often wondered if it would have been possible, with a Beverley, to get a CPN-4 airfield radar truck into Gatow during the 1961 summer "panic", when the Berlin Wall sprouted, and it was thought that another Airlift might be on the cards.

Its rotary converter truck would not be needed as the US forces in Berlin had their own 110v supply. I do not know the dimensions of a CPN-4 (MPN11 ?) but if you took the wheels off ? ......

All that was there was the old MPN-1 which had been barely adequate in 1948 and hardly any crews in RAF(G) who remembered how to work it. Luckily push did not turn to shove ! :uhoh:

Danny.

[harrym]

'Fraid I can't answer your query Danny, my Bev experience on route ops was fairly limited as most of my time was on training or examining duties. The freight hold measured 10x10x40 feet, if that's any help!

Harry

[Danny42C]

harrym (#11405),

Googled: "dimensions of cpn-4 airfield radar truck" Selected:

"radars
<radars (http://martinshough.com/aerialphenomena/Lakenheath/radarspecs.htm)> : (gives "width approx 10 feet, height unknown")

Besides wheels, you would of course have to take off the two aerials on the roof. As I recall, it was of roughly square cross section. Nowhere near 40 ft long. Might go in. Was it ever tried ?

Danny.

[roving]

This video was filmed in the Far East and over the jungle some 2 years after my parents I had left, that is in 1961, and by which time much if not all jungle supply operations had moved from Kl to Changi and Seletar.

This video includes the Beverley.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HS_IXAdvh0w

[roving]

[QUOTE=pulse1;9932258
As an ATC cadet I used to spend many Saturdays unofficially helping to refuel the Vampires and Meteor T7 of 614 Sqdn at RAF Llandow. .[/QUOTE]

This may be of interest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2hvGjZRFmQ

[roving]

Three really excellent film productions made about the Royal Air Force covering the period from 1912 to 1980 are tucked away in a quiet corner of youtube.

I have posted the link for the last one covering the period from 1946 to 1980.

This production includes brilliant footage -- on a personal note -- it even includes film of a Single Engine Pioneer flying in Malaya in the 1950's. Footage, that until I found the link, I had never seen before.

This (third and last in the series of three) production provides not only rare contemporaneous footage of the evolvement of the Service during the period 1946 - 1980, but a commentary which attempts to rationalise the changes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgtEIJQxAHw

[MPN11]

Excellent links ... thanks, roving :ok:

[ancientaviator62]

harrym,
the Beverley's cargo compartment was higher than that of the C130K at 10 feet. The C130's was just over nine feet with lots of kit in the 'hog trough' being a limiting factor. Plus the Beverley had the boom which could carry pax and paras leaving downstairs available for pax and or cargo.
The clamshell doors were a limitation which was an inferior solution to the C130 ramp and door. The C130 cargo compartment dimensions were based on the standard US railway box car.
I think the achilles heel of the Beverley was the Bristol Centaurus engine which as harrym has implied were thrashed to death doing a task for which they were not intended. The Allison T56 turboprop in the C130 was in many ways the making of the a/c as it could not have achieved the same level of performance with piston engines.
On the subject of carrying portable radar I once took one to Biggin Hill for one of their air days. A long time ago but I remember it was a tight fit !

[MPN11]

MPN11 ... Mobile Pulse Navigation
CPN4 ... Cargo Pulse Navigation

I always assumed it meant the MPN11 had wheels, and CPN4 didn't.

[Danny42C]

roving (#11408) - quoting pulse1,

Thank you for the link (one small cavil at the film: "RAAF" is Royal Australian Air Force; Royal Auxiliary Air Force is "R.Aux.A.F").

That said, how nice to see the lads and lasses of the Auxiliary Fighter Control Units get a bit of the limelight. As the Adj of No.3608 F.C.U. at Thornaby from 1951 - 1554, I had "a foot in both camps", as it were: for 608 flew from the same place, and as I had come off 20 Sqn, flying Vampires III and V, so they let me (indeed were obliged to let me) keep my hand in, flying with them.

So, on my "ground tour", I was able to do the admin for the unit, whose main task was to recruit local girls as Fighter Plotters and Radar Operators (we had 70 - 35 "pairs") under training, and also a handful of ex-wartime aircrew officers who learned the Fighter Control Officer job by "sitting next to Nellie" down the "hole" (Seaton Snook). On weekends, I could leave my two Auxiliary Adjutants to "mind the office" and went flying.

Happy Days ! (and I got me a wife as well, but not from the unit - you are not allowed to "fish off the Company Pier" !).

Danny.

[roving]

And then 608 went for their Annual Camp.

Then a tragedy. At the very end of their time at El Adem, they lost a Vampire and a pilot. 608 were always cagey about it and I don't remember any details of the accident.

Danny42C


You can't win 'em all.

Is this the Officer?

[roving]

613 Squadron lost a pilot in 1950 when flying a Spitfire in Lincolnshire.

Aged 28,

Supermarine Spitfire F.Mk 22 PK346 Accident, 21 Jul 1950 (http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=160208)

[Danny42C]

roving (#11414),

I was with (but not "on") 608 1951-54, and there was only one fatality AFAIK on the Squadron during that period, so it must be him. As I remember, a RAF Dakota brought the coffin back to Thornaby. The occasion was marred (I was told, must've been away somewhere - my own "Summer Camp", perhaps ?) by two mishaps.

The sad reception party repaired to the Mess for coffee and bikkies: the desolate young widow thanked the Dakota captain for bringing her dead husband home. Unthinkingly: "It was a pleasure", he replied - and then silently prayed that the earth would open and swallow him up.

Then Thornaby sent the coffin to a hospital in Stockton (North of the Tees and so in Co.Durham, in the baileywick of the Stockton Coroner), without reference to the Thornaby (North Riding of York) Coroner, on whose patch the aircraft had actually landed. This provoked a legal "demarcation dispute", with RAF Thornaby as "pig in the middle" between the two Coroners, don't know how they sorted that one out.

Remember "Boss" Martin well, grand chap and excellent Boss - even if he did give me one of the most sizzling "rockets" of my (Non)-Career, for the trifling offence of attempting, one murky-misty Sunday afternoon, to land a Vampire at MSG in mistake for Thornaby, and so causing Alarm and Despondency among the Glider community there at the time (and terrifying an old boy on a bike in the middle of the runway). Which did not save me from the wrath of the Station Commander Monday morning: "Three extra (Auxiliary - ie Mon & Tue) weekend SDOs !"

But they were happy days .........Danny.

[harrym]

Sounds rather a tight fit Danny (your #11406), but have no idea if it was tried or not.

AncientAviator (#11411), the Centaurus was certainly not the Bev's most reliable piece of kit and arguably not suited to some of the work it was called on to perform; on the other hand am I not right in saying that it was originally produced for the Hawker Tempest/Fury, where it might be expect to be subjected to some pretty harsh useage i.e in combat situations?

Having said that, I don't recall in my fairly limited type experience ever having an out of course engine shut-down. True, there was a somewhat alarming episode involving contaminated fuel, but that was hardly the engine's fault; don't think I have previously posted this one up, but can do so unless someone can say they have already seen it here!

[roving]

harrym, you may have seen the post of mine some days ago when I said I travelled in the back of a Beverly from KL to Changi, which as you know was the RAF transit centre in FEAF Command.

I clearly recall looking out through the open doors at the back and the families waving us off.

It would have been not unsurprising if the Beverley had come to collect us, given my father's three years as a QFI and later Flt Cmdr, with FEAF transport command, where I think he was a bit of a legend for getting his flight in and out of the jungle without one serious injury or fatality and for which he was Gazetted.

But I did wonder whether my memory was playing tricks on me, because I recalled we sat on the left hand side.

Then this weekend I saw a photograph of the inside of that Beverly and sure enough there were 5 dickie seats on the left hand side.

The other thing I recall about it was the noise from the engines. It was deafening.

The only thing I recall about Changi is that, as one would expect from a very precocious nearly 10 old boy who had treated RAF KL as his playground, I went for a walk about.

On my walk about this S/L, whom I id not recognise, saw me and asked

'What are you doing down here Roving?"

I explained with a sigh that we were going back to the UK.

"Is your father going back to the UK?",

he asked in a way which made me wonder if he thought that my father was an immoveable fixture in FEAF.

The journey back on the Hermes I have posted about before and will not repeat it. Apart from the stop overs the real thing I recall was when we were travelling over the Alps, I saw my father nod to the stewardess and the next thing that happened is that I was taken up to the cockpit to be entertained by the aircrew and a better view of the Alps.

Next time I will post about being sent to the "Tower" at RAF KL in April 1958 and a trip on the air sea rescue launch stationed at RAF Glugor,

[Chugalug2]

Danny, your walkabout to MSG was so well told in your very inimitable style that I hope you can forgive me for dredging it up from the PPRuNe archives. There will be many here that did not see it first time round.
Danny (P16) :-

"If you have tears, prepare to shed them now" (Shakespeare: Julius Caesar)

Danny42C
4th May 2013, 02:47
It was a Sunday afternoon in late '52. I was strolling back from lunch to my office when the howling of Goblins indicated that 608's first detail of interceptions was getting into the air. "Sooner 'em than me", I thought.

For it was "a dull, dark and soundless day in the autumn of the year" (E.A. Poe : The Fall of the House of Usher" ). This was one of them. Weathermen call it "Anticyclonic Gloom". A huge high-pressure system was anchored over the UK. There was little or no wind; over all Teeside lay a thick blanket of haze from ICI, the blast furnaces and coke ovens, together with the chimney smoke from hundreds of thousands of coal fires. In those days the Environment hadn't been invented, and nobody would have cared a jot for it if it had.

Slant visibility was very poor, but it is a feature of this smog that you can see straight down through it fairly well. And it usually goes up only 1500-2500 feet into an "inversion", which effectively traps it into a layer above which all is (more or less) clear and blue.

I'd settled back into the regular routine of the day; everything was running smoothly in the Unit, and my afternoon tea and biscuit had just arrived at my desk. The phone rang. It was John Newboult over on the squadron. "Look", he said "we've got a Vampire just in off routine inspection. The Boss wants it on the line ASAP, but it needs an airtest. I'm up to my eyes in it here, and Mike's in the air with the Auxiliaries. Could you possibly...?"

You do not look gift horses in the mouth. Stifling a suggestion that his Boss might get off his rump and do the airtest himself, I agreed (well, you've got to help a mate, haven't you), collected my kit, hopped on the bike, and went over to Flights. It was now mid-afternoon and the light was starting to fade.

I went straight up through this stuff into the clear air above. The Vampire seemed sound in wind and limb, my last check was to take it up to 35,000 to make sure that the "Minimum Burner Pressure" light didn't flicker at max continuous - (I never heard of a Goblin flaming-out, did anyone else ?)

Now I was up high with not much else to do. I did a few rolls to keep my hand in, which entailed a bit of mental arithmetic at the end. A Vampire has a group of five fuel gauges: you have to tot-up the five readings to get the total. That isn't too hard if the fuel stayed in its own tank, but if the aircraft is thrown about a bit, it all goes walkabout. A tank which previously showed full is now half empty, another which showed empty is now half full. One which was three-quarter is down to a quarter. You have to do the sum all over again.

Then I thought, I'll do a nice big loop. Going down was fine, gentle pull up with full throttle fine, over the top with just enough "G" to keep me comfortably in my seat, throttle closed and start on down. We hadn't got all that far when the old "snatching" and "thumping" started, and I realised that I was well on my way to my first (and last !) supersonic Vampire. Idiot ! I slammed the dive brakes out, hoping that the structure would hold together (yes, I know that the book says you can put them out at any speed, but............) This brought us up "all standing", but the wings were, thankfully, still in position when I looked out. I started to breathe again and we reached equilibrium once more.

Now it has always been my practice that, once you have tried the patience of Providence and got away with it, not to do anything silly again on the same flight. It would be S&L and gentle turns from now on. I'll do a Controlled Descent. It'll give the Auxiliary Controller a bit of practice, and save me having to scratch about in this murk trying to find the field. If it works OK, and I have fuel, might do another one.

As the squadron was still out on exercise, I was the only customer and the QGH should be "straight out of the book". I was soon overhead. All the QGHs I'd done there before had been done on a NE >SW Safety Lane. This brings you in over Tees mouth, and there are plenty of landmarks from then on, culminating in Thornaby cemetery (the many white military headstones show up a treat) acting as a sort of Inner Marker for the 22 threshold.

But today he sent me out SW>NE. I didn't even know they had a second safety lane, but you learn something every day. I thought he was a bit slow letting me down outbound, but no matter - it would give me more time to settle down inbound. Check Height 2,500, and I'm skimming over a sea of mushroom soup. "Descend to Visual - call field in sight". Down into the clag I go, at 1,500 I can see a circle of ground perhaps half a mile wide below me, but nothing further out. But not to worry, the steers are 040-045-040, I'm right "in the groove", the field must appear any moment.

But things are not always what they seem...


It is better to travel hopefully than to arrive.

Danny42C
6th May 2013, 03:33
There it is ! "Field in sight"......"Over to local"...."Silversand 21 joining" ..The bored Local Controller puts down his Sunday paper: "21-04left-1019-circuitclear-calldownwind". I watch the runway as a cat watches a mouse, never taking my eyes off it. For I know, from bitter experience, that in these conditions you only need to look away for a couple of seconds and it's gone. Thrashing around trying to find it again is no good, you have to swallow your pride and go back to Approach for steers to bring you home again (this does no good at all to your image).

"21 Downwind".......Call finals-surfacewind-020tenknots". The local Controller hasn't seen me, but in any case he wouldn't expect to in this smog, and besides, I'm behind him as he sits in the Tower. And he's entitled to assume that a pilot is where he says he is...."21 finals, three greens".."21, land". I swing round and down to the runway.

Half way round, something strikes me as odd. Prewar, there had been a small road running close to that side of the boundary. The runway was extended during the war, a section of the road was closed off, and had been incorporated into the new taxiway. Post war, the road had been reinstated, some 200 ft of the runway had been cut off with an angle-iron and wire fence across. (The useless stub of runway and its verges were a popular picnic spot for the locals; there they could watch the flying as they scoffed their sandwiches).

Landing on 04, you came over this fence to the displaced threshold. But the fence had gone ! Someone had taken it away ! Nobody had told me ! I hadn't flown for ten days or so, had I missed something on the crewroom blackboard ? I was very low now, concentrating on the "piano keys" (did we have them then ?). For the first time, I had a quick glance to my left. There were one or two gliders far over on the grass. Thornaby didn't fly gliders ! Help ! - I'm having a nightmare ! - Where am I ?

Even then the penny didn't drop, but instinct (at last !) took over. "Get out of it !" I slammed the throttle open, but the Goblin spools-up only slowly. The Vampire settled and I felt the wheels rumbling on the tarmac. And then, at the far runway intersection, an old sit-up-and-beg cyclist appeared, making slow and stately progress across my bows from left to right.

Clearly, he hadn't heard me (must have been deaf as a post) - and there was no reason for him to expect aircraft on a Sunday. I'd to decide whether to swerve in front of him, or behind, or wet-hen over the top, for I knew instantly that we would arrive exactly at the middle of the intersection together. Time started to pass in milliseconds. At this point, some sixth sense warned the old chap that all was not well. I cannot swear to it, but I'm sure I saw a puff of smoke from the back tyre and the bike do a "wheelie". It shot out of my field of vision.

Back in the air again, over the far end of the runway, and all became clear. In an impossibly small field lay a crashed Meteor. A few days before an AFS student had stalled on finals to runway 22 at Middleton, and pancaked into this tiny spot. No one could imagine how he had done it; it hadn't done him any good, he was severely injured and the aircraft, seemingly undamaged, had a broken back. It was still there as the engineers couldn't work out how to shift it. The fame of this incident had spread round the North East, eveybody in the air with a few minutes to spare had gone to have a look, and MSG were getting quite stroppy about it.

This sad sight clinched it: now I knew where I was. A few seconds more, and I was over the railway viaduct at Yarm. No way of getting away with it -there had been too many witnesses. I sighed and called Local: "Ring Middleton and apologise for me - I've just done a roller there by mistake". Now 608 had come back on the frequency, so it was a public confession. Guffaws and catcalls filled the air (I'm afraid R/T discipline was rather poor in those days !).

I nipped back ahead of them into the circuit, round and down. There shoudn't be anyone in the Flight Office just now, I should be able to book-in and get out without anyone seeing me. Too late! - the snitch in ATC had phoned the Squadron as soon as he'd hung up on the SDO at MSG. Boss Martin was there, and he addressed me more in anger than in sorrow. What the devil was I thinking about, a pilot of my experience, to do a damned silly thing like that ? The Squadron would get the blame for this: it was one of his aircraft, they would be the laughing stock of the Command. And what about the gliders ? Supposing there had been a tow wire awaiting pickup on the runway ? How far would I get with that wound round a wheel. ?

I thought it unlikely that MSG would be doing aerotows in these conditions, winch-launched C&Bs at the best, but it didn't seem advisable to make the point just now, or to mention the little matter of the cyclist. Boss had got his Vampire back without a scratch, hadn't he ? I'd done his airtest for him, hadn't I ? What had he to moan about ?

All my service life, I'd enjoyed stories of pilots who had done just this very thing (the favourite being the tale of a Very Senior Officer who landed somewhere or other, but remained very taciturn until he'd a chance to read DROs - and so found where he was !) How could anyone be so stupid ?, I thought. Now I knew.

In my defence, I could say that the runway patterns, the orientation of hangars and control tower, and the main runway headings were identical. The fields were only six miles apart (say little more than two minutes' flight), and the visibiltiy was appalling. I couldn't even see the oxbow in the Tees (about a mile to the west) which points like a dagger at Thornaby. But none of this exculpates me. I should have overshot as soon as I noticed the missing fence.

Good news travels fast. It had got back to my unit before I did (tail between my legs). People were very kind to me at tea in the Mess. Jack Derbyshire answered the phone and came over, sympathetically: "Old Man wants to see you in the morning - 0900".

Malcolm Sewell was a man of few words: "Three extra auxiliary weekends SDO"......"No more than I deserve, Sir".

That's all, folks.

Danny42C


Please sir, I'm not lost - it's just that I don't know where I am.

[harrym]

Roving, in your #11418 you refer to the Beverley's open rear doors. I presume this refers to the pax doors, rather than those of the clamshell variety? So far as I recall, it was illegal to carry pax in the main hold when the clamshells were removed but then rules and the Bev did not always go together!

However, you are so right about the noise! The only transport that could compare was the York, its freight compartment of the PCF version giving a fair version of hell - this aided at night by flames streaming from the inboard engines' exhaust stubs, their colour giving a fair indication of the degree of throttle opening - deep orange at takeoff, shading to blue for cruise.

Chugalug2, many thanks for the re-post of Danny's face-losing episode, I missed it first time round. To keep him company in the hall of bad memories here is one from my Britannia days:


As yet another course drew on, ATS staff and students looked forward to the final treat (or trial, depending on one's viewpoint) of the route trainer. Globals lay in the future, so the expected routing would normally have been the standard Hong Kong via Changi in both directions. On this occasion however, one of the periodic Middle East crises erupted shortly before the due date, with the inevitable result that all available aircraft were required for area reinforcement.

Given this need, the trainers' accustomed leisurely progress was now out of the question and so our commitment was slotted in as part of the operation; having shed passengers at Bahrein, we would then proceed onwards in the normal instructional role. Staff crew would be reduced to one (per trade) per aircraft, but trainees would not be reduced pro rata and so I found myself saddled with four u/t copilots plus the usual other variegated crew members; plainly my workload would be somewhat enhanced as compared with a normal tasking, and especially so since our young hopefuls were prohibited by ASI's from carrying out takeoffs or landings with pax on board.

The op. was fairly intensive, with flights departing every few hours. Drawing a short straw I was allocated a late evening departure, the prospect leaving me distinctly unchuffed; commencing a maximum duty period at a time when the body would normally expect rest, we could surely look forward to a condition of living death prior to final destination. As expected, afternoon sleep proved a lost cause, so that the flight planning stage found me at least in an even less alert condition than normal.

Out on the ramp the Station Commander hovered around, proof of pressure from high places that all must go well. Off blocks on time, everything looked good until the very last moment; but the spring of '64 had been fairly lush, and with the airfield mowers having been hard at work the loose grass bogey struck again - one engine well down on torque, its compressor blow-off valves clogged with grass clippings. Taxying back in, I prayed we might be granted a night's rest but it was not to be. Already XL 640 was parked in the next bay, ready and waiting; all hands set to with a will to transfer our load, even Alastair lending his services as a baggage handler and then finally pushing us up the steps. This time all was well and soon we were climbing into the now-dark sky, feeling more ready for bed than for the interminable hours confronting us.

Of the long drag to Akrotiri I remember little, other than total time off flight deck amounting to a few minutes necessary for a dash to the toilet and back. The sun was well up when Cyprus came into view, and arrival presented no problems despite our general exhaustion; but by the time onwards flight planning had been completed I felt like a zombie, and awaited the next stage with some apprehension in so far as my fitness for duty was concerned. On the other hand, barring further delay we would (just) be within the legal duty time limit, and so there was little option but to proceed and hope that nothing testing occurred. Recalling the cryptic saying that "an aviator of superior ability is one who uses that ability in such a manner as not to have to make use of it" I climbed back aboard; but in my head was an uneasy feeling that I, at least, was already functioning in autopilot mode, while a sure prospect of the morning sun blazing into our eyes during the run east further degraded an already low morale.

Acknowledging the marshaller's farewell wave, I noticed a 3-ton truck parked on slightly rising ground to the left of the short taxyway leading to Runway 29. Although closer than either desirable or necessary, I judged clearance to be adequate; a judgement reinforced by the lack of any visible sign of alarm from the truck's passengers, plus a distinct impression that the curve of the taxyway would take us well clear. A second or two later the aircraft lurched sickeningly to the left, and although it then continued normally I braked to a halt at once, enquiring if anyone knew what had happened; incredibly, my addled brain refused to deduce the obvious. Reality was restored by the signaller pointing out that our port wing tip was "sticking up out of that 3-tonner"; unwillingly craning my head round, the grisly sight told me everything-------every pilot's nightmare, the unforgivable sin, was there right in front of my eyes, and it was all my own work.

But even accidents sometimes have redeeming features. By a stroke of fortune the lorry's tilt frame had taken the tip off dead clean; all retaining rivets had sheared off neatly, leaving the wing's virtually undamaged stub end ready to receive the replacement. This arrived only hours later in a back-up aircraft, when I was already facing a hastily convened inquiry.

It did not take long; the cause of the accident was only too plain, and having been in sole control at the time it was both impossible and unreasonable to try and duck my responsibility for what had occurred. However, a lot of flak landed on the MT section; not only was the truck in flagrant disregard of MT standing orders by being parked where it was, the driver had no airfield driving permit and had not even signed his section order book. As for me, the board's president was kindly and sympathetic, finding something to say about our ludicrous scheduling as a mitigating circumstance (although obviously not in so many words), but his conclusion was nonetheless inevitable: my fault, open & shut case.

Five days later we flew our now repaired Britannia back home, the students soon to depart again on a proper Hong Kong trainer but this time without me. Weeks passed, the administrative mills ground as slowly as ever, but sure as fate came the expected summons to a formal interview with the Station Commander. As I listened to him politely deliver a formal admonishment, I unworthily wondered if he too was thinking of his episode at Gan some months before; but of course the words were not his, he was only acting under orders in relaying a bollocking from on high.

Although the C-in-C had chosen to ignore anything the Board said in mitigation concerning fatigue, scheduling & so on, it was a lesson I did not forget and in the years to come did what little I could by way of sundry reports etc to moderate the severity of excessive and poorly planned crew duty times often wished on us by those above. I like to think that perhaps something was achieved thereby, even if not very much; however, given the economic imperative for large transport aircraft to be flown round the clock, plus the human body's natural limitations, this is a problem which will surely remain with aviation so long as there are aeroplanes.

[Danny42C]

harrym (#11420),

"To err is human - to forgive is not Air Force Policy !" Years ago, Wg Cdr "Spry" remarked on the dilemma facing a Boss who had the task of sitting in judgment on one of his Hunter boys who'd banged his tailpipe on the runway: "This chap had been driven hard - and who had done the driving ?"

Applicable in your case, I would think.

Danny.

[harrym]

Thank you Danny, very neatly stated! Here is the second part of some Bev memories:

Sometimes regarded initially with dismay by those assigned to fly it, the Beverley was in general well liked by its crews. One of the first RAF aircraft with powered control systems, and thus easy and docile to fly despite a formidable bulk, it earned respect both for an ability to cope with almost any task thrown at it plus the capacity to absorb endless ill-treatment while so doing. The reverse pitch propellers, in association with powerful anti-skid brakes (the first RAF aircraft to be so fitted), gave great confidence in short field operations while also providing the useful if potentially hazardous ability to taxy backwards. However, being early specimens of their kind these props occasionally provided a few hair-raising moments: such as failing to come out of reverse when maneuvering in confined spaces (a fault later corrected by the introduction of propeller interrupter switches, and no don't ask me to elaborate on this mod – not here, anyway!) or, on one alarming occasion, allegedly going into reverse just before touchdown resulting in one of the shortest Beverley arrivals on record.

As for short field operations, despite being chronically under-powered the Beverley did quite well although takeoff performance never matched its stopping capability. However, a run of up to 600 yards for lighter weights was still quite impressive, with about 400 yds required for a short landing. Early on there had been trials with rocket assistance for take off, but nothing came of them. More seriously, the power shortfall necessitated useage of relatively high rpm in the cruise, with the inevitable result of a high rate of unscheduled engine renewal; and, since much of the fleet's work was performed in hot climates, this problem was of course compounded thereby.

In fact the Beverley was probably a greater challenge to those who had the unenviable job of looking after it, a task necessarily performed in ways that would probably be illegal under present day health & safety laws. With engines so high off the ground that a tall guy could safely walk beneath running engines without risk of decapitation, the chore of working on Bristol's finest could be both hazardous and uncomfortable. Chasing oil leaks, sorting out propeller problems, the inevitable frequent plug changes (36 plugs per engine) were just a few of the many tasks facing engine fitters on their lofty, draughty perches, from which tools were only too easily dropped - a nuisance to retrieve, and also a potential hazard to anyone below.

The airframe mechanics' lot was scarcely more congenial, for much of their work was also accomplished at dizzy heights. The tailplane was the least desirable location, fin & rudder assemblies being almost 40 ft agl; true, safety harnesses were available but then some brave individual had to go up there and fit the anchor straps in the first place. Similar protection was available for those working on the wings, failure to use which could result in a rapid descent onto hard concrete. Carelessly opened boom para hatches were responsible for at least one fatality, for it was only too easy to fall through them when emerging backwards through the rear toilet following completion of work in the tail cone. A further potential hazard was provided by the interior wing crawlways, giving access to sundry engine-driven components behind the firewalls. Always claustrophobic, and in hot climates positively dangerous to those foolish enough to venture unsupervised into their oven-like inner reaches they provided a real hazard; indeed, there were a number of cases of heat exhaustion from this cause, one fatal. But despite all these difficulties, the monster was well served by its ground crew, among whom the spirit of "can do----will do" was universal; just as well, for aside from providing a fairly hostile working environment, frequent role changes were an inevitable consequence of its multi-task capability.

From the passenger point of view sleep is of course the best way of passing time, but even the most noddy-inclined individual has limits in that field - so what other recreation was available to passengers? They were normally carried in the boom compartment, providing some relief from the deafening noise in the hold but offering a very poor view out from the slightly upward-sloping windows; so, to see whatever was on offer, it was first necessary to scramble awkwardly “downstairs”, using the stringers as a step-ladder.

The hold was not soundproofed, but occasional carriage of motor vehicles (especially private cars carried as indulgence freight on homebound flights) offered some escape from the interminable din. Slipping inside one with a good book, one could read for many hours in greater comfort than was possible in most contemporary airliners. Unfortunately however any encounter with turbulence, always likely at the Bev's comparatively low operating altitude, necessitated a rapid evacuation if nausea were to be avoided - vehicle suspensions are designed to deal with surface irregularities, but exaggerate the effects of rough air.

Should the hold be empty, athletically inclined persons could jog to & fro. Noticing a bicycle lashed to the cabin wall on one occasion, I rode it in a figure eight pattern for a few minutes; who else can claim to have cycled over France at 150 mph? (though it was rumoured that someone once actually did the same with a motor bike!). Then there was the supply aimer's position in the nose, giving a superb view of the passing scene through its clear glass panel. I spent some time thus, and during one clear passage over the Massif Central was able to garner much useful data towards the planning of a forthcoming French holiday. Nearer home, when hitching a ride one weekend from Abingdon to Dishforth I was able to take my car with me, thus saving a dreary six hour drive on pre-motorway roads; how many other service aircraft offered such a facility? - free, too!


Rest in peace, AVIS MAXIMUS -
the world will not see your like again

[thegypsy]

The only Beverley pilot I ever came across was John Blount or at least who ever owned up to being on them. He of Excelsior Manchester Hotel fame:rolleyes:

[Danny42C]

harrym (#11422),

..."(36 plugs per engine)"... The Aden service brat Geriaviator would've been in seventh heaven, for plug cleaning was his specialty there !

The Beverley seems to have been in the category of aircraft that grows on you after an unprepossessing first impression - looks like a big Miles "Aerovan". Never had anything to do with them, but we had a detachment of Belgian C-119 with us for a few weeks one summer at Leeming.

For some weird reason (EU regs?) butter in the NAAFI was cheaper than retail butter in Belgium: there were quite a number of "admin" trips back home during the detachment; well down on their oleos outbound, but coming back light.

And there was woe on the "patches", as the NAAFI was always running out of butter !

But taking your car with you trumps even my strategem of an air-transportable charpoy ! And you could stow two three-tonner MT brake drums more easily than in a Spitfire !

Danny.

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

Harry yr. last:

"Nearer home, when hitching a ride one weekend from Abingdon to Dishforth I was able to take my car with me, thus saving a dreary six hour drive on pre-motorway roads; how many other service aircraft offered such a facility? - free, too"!

Super stuff Harry - those were indeed the days! More please, whenever you're ready!

Ian BB (envious SEL)

[Fareastdriver]

Next door but one to me at one time was the pilot who took the Beverley to the RAF Museum at Hendon. The airfield had already been dug up and he was effectively landing in the middle of a building site.

The aircraft, so I was told, was never struck off charge so the RAF still owned it as it sat there outside the museum. I am led to believe that the museum authorities were thereby powerless to do anything to preserve it so it just corroded away so badly that it had to be scrapped.

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

PS. Harry

"the many tasks facing engine fitters on their lofty, draughty perches, from which tools were only too easily dropped - a nuisance to retrieve, and also a potential hazard to anyone below".

Mother (92 yr. old ex FAA Air Mech E) says that her mates working on Sunderlands or Catalinas bobbing about on their moorings always tied their spanners (or whatever) to their wrists as retrieval was impossible if dropped.

Ian BB

[Warmtoast]

harrym (your Beverley Memories)

Photographed about the time you were flying Beverleys some shots from my album.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/Beverley1.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/Beverley2.jpg

Gan - 14th February 1958. This 47 Sqn R.A.F. Abingdon-based Beverley serial number XB263, piloted by F/Lt Peter Dudley, flew in the advance contingent of Pakistani workers who were to do most of the construction work to convert Gan from a sleepy island with a short crushed-coral landing strip to a busy RAF staging post with an 8,694ft/2,650m long concrete runway.


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/Beverley3.jpg

Close up of the nose of the aircraft emblazoned with Arms of the town of Abingdon and GSM Medal (Malaya)
Below a couple of shots of Beverleys I took a year later when I was stationed at Abingdon in 1959.


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Abingdon/Abingdon-BeverlyLanding_1280x853-1.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Abingdon/Abingdon-BeverlyTake-off_1200x800-1.jpg

[BEagle]

The late 'Puddy' Catt, that well-known Hunter chap, once told me a story about a flight he'd had in a Bev.

Stooging back from the Middle East in the boom, he was having a snooze when he was woken up by a steward...or possibly the AQM? "Captain's compliments, sir - would you like to take tea?" Puddy agreed and down they went to the main freight bay - where he found a table laid with a crisp white tablecloth, plus real crockery. He was served tea from a proper teapot and was offered some little triangular sandwiches with crusts cut off, plus some cake. All this was accompanied by polite small talk with most of the rest of the crew, albeit in voices which could be heard above the Centauri. After about 20 min, the captain excused himself as he had to return to the flight deck and wished Puddy an enjoyable flight.

He was never sure whether the teatime session had been a joke, or whether this was considered normal behaviour in the trucky world!

[DHfan]

The aircraft, so I was told, was never struck off charge so the RAF still owned it as it sat there outside the museum. I am led to believe that the museum authorities were thereby powerless to do anything to preserve it so it just corroded away so badly that it had to be scrapped.

The RAF Museum got a real pasting when it was scrapped but it wasn't their fault. It was, finally, handed over to them but it was already far too late. It was too far gone and they had no option but to scrap it.
I imagine given the size of the beast it would have been a fairly major drain on resources and manpower but if it had been given to them on arrival there's a possibility it would still be there now.

[ancientaviator62]

It is my fear that the Hercules parked at the museum at Cosford will suffer the same fate as the Hendon Beverley. The Belfast is safely tucked up in the Cold War hangar whilst the Hercules, a real Cold War warrior, sits outside.

[Chugalug2]

I'm confused about the fate of the RAFM Beverley. Why would the RAF not want to write it off charge the moment it was landed at Hendon? As I understand it, the LDA was only just sufficient, so no way was there sufficient TORA even if the RAF did want it back! Did the RAFM take any action to expedite handover? If so why did it fail?

Wasn't the main problem that it was too large to be housed, and exposed to the elements was bound to deteriorate no matter who owned it, without enormous expenditure being thrown at it non stop? Why was it ever delivered there if that was the case?

The same question applies to the Cosford Hercules. As you say, AA62, it was a true Cold War warrior and needs to be placed under cover before suffering the same fate as the Beverley. If that means displacing another exhibit with rather less Cold War credentials, then so be it. I would agree that the Belslow ticks such a box, unless of course everyone can budge up a bit to allow Fat Albert inside...

[Danny42C]

Warmtoast (#11428),

What lovely pics - and what an enormous beast ! And you didn't need to paint that D/F hut white !

Danny.

[Danny42C]

Chugalug (#11432),

Could not the RAF afford to keep (or even build) just one (or two) hangars to be kept warm and dry for these old warriors somewhere ? Northolt ?

EDIT:

After all, the Navy can keep a whole battleship (HMS Belfast) as a pet on the Thames. So how about our "Belslow" ? (neat, new one on me).

Danny.

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

Danny

May I direct you to page 481 of this best of threads and to post no. 9605. I believe it may be of interest to you today.

Regards
Ian BB

[Danny42C]

Ian BB (#11435),

Thanks ! How remiss of me (Short Term Memory Loss).

Many Happy Returns to my Esteemed Mentor, Chugalug, who guided my first steps through the pprune jungle five long years ago. EDIT: Page 114, # 2263-et seq.

Scorpio Danny (well, aren't all the best people ?)



...........................https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/Scorpion_Photograph_By_Shantanu_Kuveskar.jpg/220px-Scorpion_Photograph_By_Shantanu_Kuveskar.jpg....[Wiki]

[harrym]

Ian B-B, re your 11427 had sometimes wondered how techies working on flying boats coped with the inevitable dropped tool problem – now, after so many years, enlightenment!

Warmtoast, many thanks for those evocative pictures. Despite its size the Beverley could actually be operated with a (very) minimum crew, the ultimate achieved by Timber Wood (Blackburn's chief test pilot during the 1950s) who one day took a Bev up all by himself, later saying he had felt 'rather lonely'! Once, called for an after-hours air test at short notice, the only available crew member I could find was a co-pilot so the two of us went off on our own – probably highly illegal, but we coped OK with DCO duly entered in the authorisation book and everybody was happy.

[Chugalug2]

IBB, you've blown my cover yet again. Thanks Danny, I seem to recall that we tear off yet another page of our respective calendars in close progression. Your pic is a fearsome example of the species indeed though proof enough of the effortless ease with which you posted it. My work here is done it would seem. :ok:

84 Squadron presumably collected their Scorpion Badge from their time in prewar Iraq. 30 Squadron on which I served preferred to commemorate their time in the Middle East with the Date Palm though the motto, Ventre a Terre (All Out, or Bellies to the Sand), was very appropriate for the Low Level drops that became its norm.

Danny:-
Could not the RAF afford to keep (or even build) just one (or two) hangars to be kept warm and dry for these old warriors somewhere ? Northolt ?
I fear you know the answer already. As I understand it, the RAF these days cannot afford anything so unproductive as to house and keep safe obsolete non-operational and grounded aircraft. That after all is why the RAF Museum was established. We did have a hanger at RAF Colerne full of exhibits awaiting that happening. As O/O you were often called out by the Guardroom of a W/E to unlock the doors and conduct a party of enthusiasts around. Even so, the collection was not inviolate. We had the three Avro 707s, A, B, and C, there. "Surely one is enough?" espoused some VSO. Despite the fact that they were all different, and designed for exploration of different parts of the Vulcan envelope, I think that the dirty deed was done.

Air Forces and Airlines alike cannot afford sentimentality and ruthlessly rid themselves of that which is no longer useful. I would expect more of a Museum, and hope that Cosford will preserve my old steed under cover where it belongs.

Edit; In investigating further, it seems that the only 707B was written off in a crash (so much for my powers of recall!), that a 707A is preserved in Australia, while both a 707A and a 707C survive in the UK, at the Manchester and Cosford Air Museums respectively. The hiatus I recall must have been the diversion of the 707A to the Manchester Museum of Science and Industry. This has an excellent aviation hall with many types of aircraft and is greatly to be recommended. Perhaps their airships acted for the best after all...

http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/aircraft/types/type-details/avro-707.htm

[DFCP]

Re Roving11386
Thank you for the amplifying report on the KC 135 accident
It does differ somewhat from the survivor Paul Vances input to me.That said I wonder why the accident aircraft had the
weight/fuel overload that led to Pauls caution and deplaning
In retrospect it does not seem that a 135 could not have done the round trip to London and back even if it had a fuel overload at take off from the US
Anyway Paul lived another 20+ years due to his caution.!
D

[Warmtoast]

harrym
Ian B-B, re your 11427 had sometimes wondered how techies working on flying boats coped with the inevitable dropped tool problem – now, after so many years, enlightenment!
Not sure about spanners strapped to wrists, but my photo below taken in 1957 as the 205/209 Sqn Sunderland I was on was refuelled at Glugor (Penang) en-route from Seletar to China Bay (Sri Lanka) shows at least the refuelling hose attached securely to the fuselage - and what about the crew? - a long way down if one slipped!


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20China%20Bay/ChinaBay-SunderlandOverwingrefuelling.jpg


And going back to the Beverley. When I did my AQM training at 242 OCU Dishforth in August 1959 we were introduced to the dreaded Beverley Trim Sheet, an abomination of the first order as you may well remember! Introducing as it did height into the fore and aft load weight distribution calculations. See below.


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Abingdon/Beverley-Trim-Sheet-front_zpszxgcrhcy.jpg

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

Warmtoast

"Not sure about spanners strapped to wrists"

Not "strapped to wrists" but tools tied to the wrist by, maybe, 12 inches of string (cord) or whatever was to hand, to allow retention if it flew off the job heading for "the oggin"

'Best
Ian BB

[Warmtoast]

Ian BB

"mea culpa" - point taken.

WT

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

WT

No blame at all. I should have made myself clearer - to use the yukky modern parlance, "I miswrote."

For scheduled maintenance they would drag the craft up the slipway (if they had one) so the problem of sunken tools did not arise, but as all here know, aircraft sometimes develop "snags" which need fixing ASAP, hence the maritime mechs. need to tether their tools while working above the water.

Ian BB

[Fareastdriver]

I think that that is the grounding cable on the refuelling hose. Grounding to the aeroplane, that is.

[Chugalug2]

WT:-
and what about the crew? - a long way down if one slipped!

I think it was a feature of the Sunderland that the leading edges folded down to present a working platform for access to, and servicing of, the systems that ran behind them. There was also provision for the attachment of servicing platforms around the engines with the cowlings opened (and removed?). I would think that these were useful even if the aircraft had been hauled out of the water, but much of this work had perforce to be done whilst the aircraft was afloat and tethered to a buoy. When seas became too rough and winds to high for restraint by buoys or anchors, the aircraft had to be manned and taxied into wind until conditions improved. A special hard lying allowance was payable in this event. One of the first amendments for me to carry out was the removal of the entire section relating to this allowance in QR's. The writing was on the wall (and indeed already being wiped!) for RAF Flying Boats, the galleons of the skies!

[Molemot]

The Solent Sky museum has a Sandringham flying boat...this photo shows the engine maintenance platforms...
https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/07/5e/1a/2e/solent-sky-museum.jpg

Very well worth a visit, you can get into the flying boat too...

[Danny42C]

Warmtoast (#11440),
..."coped with the inevitable dropped tool problem"...
One day, the famille D. found themselves Yale-locked out of their Quarter out in the sticks, the house and car keys were on the hall table. But there was a spare car key hidden somewhere under the rear brightwork. ...

Friendly local garage man loaned me a small adjustable spanner. I knew that I couldn't get an arm through the brass letter-box and get to the door lock. But the letterbox was bolted to the door: I could get at the two securing nuts inside ......

Luckily I had the 'nous' to ask for a length of string to tie to the the spanner (so I could retrieve it if it fell inside the door). Back at the house, ten minute's fiddling, the nuts were off, the whole letter-box pulled out of the door, plenty of room in the opening for clever Daddy to get hand through to the door catch... Job Done !

Yes, I did take the spanner back to the garage !
..."and what about the crew? - a long way down if one slipped!"...
But water is softer than concrete !

Danny.

[oxenos]

FED, you beat me to it.I think that that is the grounding cable on the refuelling hose. Grounding to the aeroplane, that is.

Ref the Beverley,I posted this some time ago on another forum
Early 60's I had the good fortune to be sent on a French Air Force skiing course. There were a load of French Air Force pilots on the course as well.
One recounted his version of the Beverley's first demo flight at Farnborough.
According to him, on the approach to Farnborough, the captain realised there was a crow formating on the aircraft. Captain puts on more power, crow flaps its wings a bit faster, more power, more flapping, etc. Eventually,Bev is flat out, crow is hardly raising a sweat. Captain pulls off the power, and puts down the flaps and raises the nose. Just getting a bit of burble, when the crow flicks and spins in.
Not sure the french were overly impressed. It sounded good in French - " il y avait un grand corbeau noir" .

[Chugalug2]

Danny:-
Back at the house, ten minute's fiddling, the nuts were off, the whole letter-box pulled out of the door, plenty of room in the opening for clever Daddy to get hand through to the door catch... Job Done !

and very convenient for clever burglar too! You have raised alarm for a potential security loophole at Chez Chug, but clever Grandad has deduced that clever burglar would have to be double jointed with impossibly long arms...I think.

[Wander00]

Oxenos - glad my coffee had not arrived, otherwise it would be everywhere by now. True or not, embellished or not, one of the funniest stories to come my way. Thank you

[Danny42C]

oxenos (#11448),

Must've been his Bête Noire !

(all right, I'm not staying long !)

EDIT: Long ago told apocryphal story of a crow who raised two claws to us to convey his contempt for our crow-scaring measures - or so said the Assistant ATC who had the binoculars on him when the 'banger' on the stake on which he was perched went off !

[Danny42C]

Chugalug (#11449),

Modern deadlocks in daughter's house (where I now reside) are of such complexity that am not sure if I could find key and get out of house if alone and house on fire !

[MPN11]

I remember fighting the Upland Goose flocks at Stanley (stupid birds) ... oh, hang on, this is off-Topic.

Anywaaaay ... it seemed that if I fired a bird-scaring cartridge into the flock, they would flutter about a bit and then resume their normal pecking. However, a quick reload [or 2 Very pistols ... yay, 6-gun McGraw!] with a cartridge into the middle of their fluttering would actually get the bloody things to go away [for a while].


And now we resume normal programming.

[Davidsa]

[QUOTE=Warmtoast;9937573]harrym

Not sure about spanners strapped to wrists, but my photo below taken in 1957 as the 205/209 Sqn Sunderland I was on was refuelled at Glugor (Penang) en-route from Seletar to China Bay (Sri Lanka) shows at least the refuelling hose attached securely to the fuselage - and what about the crew? - a long way down if one slipped!


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20China%20Bay/ChinaBay-SunderlandOverwingrefuelling.jpg


Thank you for posting this photo which is of great interest to me my late father (Eric Stanton) was an engineer on Sunderlands during the war. Like many people, he didn't talk much about his experiences but I know he didn't enjoy crawling along the wing to refuel and work on the engines (in UK weather!), and did say that "if you dropped your screwdriver you'd had it".

Incidentally I recently found a notebook containing some of his lecture notes from his training. Of course this is of sentimental value and I want to hold onto it, but if anyone interested in WW2 history or Sunderlands would like some scans, or even to borrow it for a short time please get it touch. Obviously there won't be any technical information in it which isn't well known, but is a historical document of sorts. The Heritage Centre at Pembroke Dock are aware of it.



.

[Warmtoast]

davidsa

anyone interested in WW2 history or Sunderlands would like some scans

I'm sure members of this Forum would be delighted, as would I, so please scan and post here.

Meanwhile some more Sunderland related photos from my album dated 1957 when I was stationed at China Bay across the bay from the RN Base at Trincomalee. They've appeared before here on PPruNe, but posted to show how one flew in a more sedate world.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20China%20Bay/ChinaBay-Sunderlands.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20China%20Bay/ChinaBay1957-SunderlandAlightingAre.jpg

The flying boat alighting area at China Bay under the float with the airfield at top right. At bottom centre an oil slick near the refuelling (for ships) jetty.


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20China%20Bay/ViewThroughWindow.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20China%20Bay/ViewThroughWindow2.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20China%20Bay/SunderlandOPP112_zps276fe3c0.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20China%20Bay/ChinaBay1957-SunderlandinFormation.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20China%20Bay/ChinaBay-1.jpg

[pzu]

May be of interest to some following this ‘thread’:

https://www.rafa.org.uk/blog/2017/10/06/raf-association-supports-new-war-film/

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

[Geriaviator]

Been away for a few days to find this thread burning as brightly as ever. Harrym, your stories match those we have enjoyed down the years, please keep them coming, many thanks!

[OffshoreSLF]

Thought you chaps would like to see this -

WW2 pilot takes to the skies aged 96 - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-41774014)

Danny - Are you ready?

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

Warmtoast - lovely evocative pictures of those great flying boats - thank you for reposting. When I first went to Australia (Jan. 1974) I arrived by B747, but was amazed to see that Sunderland/Sandringham flying boats bobbing about in Rose Bay Sydney still operated a scheduled service out to Lord Howe Island in the Tasman Sea.

Ian BB

PS After a little web research I now know how lucky I was to see this, as the service finished forever in September 1974 - presumably they had built a land runway on the island by then.

PPS QANTAS operated from Sydney to Norfolk Island using DC4 equipment until 1977 - quite amazing that WW2 airframes were still providing scheduled service in the age of wide bodied Jumbos and - at last - supersonic Concorde. There are DC4s still earning a living out in the world but no Concordes and no replacement for them - the first time in aviation history that speed took a backward step?

[Wander00]

Many years ago I worked for an OC Admin called Peter Moon. Later met him in Hampshire after we had both left the RAF. Story I heard was that he joined the RAF as a 16 year old with no qualifications, went to Sunderlands, maybe as a gunner, and made a name for himself during a gale as watch on board and saving the aircraft, and himself, from a watery grave. Ended up commissioned and ultimately a gp capt responsible for all non commissioned careers (other than aircrew). Sadly he died a while back, but one of those people who "made an impression". Anyone know anymore about his career, and especially the gale incident, I think at Pembroke Dock

[roving]

Many years ago I worked for an OC Admin called Peter Moon.

This gentleman?

SECRETARIAL BRANCH

Wing Commander to Group Captain :

1st Jan. 1970

P. A. H. MOON (47805).

Retirement

Group Captain P. A. H. MOON. 9th Jun. 1975

[Danny42C]

offshoreSLF (#11458),

This really links up with "Final Landing" ("Out of the blue" book series - Thread somewhere *) - but it opens up quite a question for us all : how did you feel when you climbed down, handed your flying kit in, and [pilots] wrote "DCO" in the Authorisation Book for the last time ?

Note * - EDIT: "Out of the Blue: The Final Landing (http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/599211-out-blue-final-landing.html)" - Here - Military Aviation - of course !

Me: in 1946, as if I'd had a leg cut off. In 1954, no great pang. I'd had my flying years, and they'd been good years, but now the end had come. Today, no particular yen to grab the stick again, although I'm told: "It's like riding a bike - you never forget". It was fun while it lasted !

What do you think, chaps ?

Good luck to the old chap anyhow, hope he enjoyed it ! (can we get him on here, btw ?)

Danny.

PS: (Still small voice: did the BBC ask to have a look at his logbook ? - there are "Walts" about, we had one up here a few years ago, conned BBC "Look North" a treat, and all the local papers hereabouts as well).

[ancientaviator62]

Danny,
did my last trip in Hercules XV XV 196 on 24 Dec 1996 Lyneham -Split -Lyneham during the Balkan 'unpleasantness'. My choice (as the ALM leader) of route and date of my swansong.
I never looked back as after almost 35 years of non stop flying I had had enough of the 'do more and more with less and less' culture.
Kept my PPL going for a few years with a share in a Super Cub.
Only fly as SLF these days.

[Chugalug2]

A good video of the Hendon Sunderland, ML824, showing well its cavernous interior.

g8-eX0cnwNw

Many others on YouTube, including one from the Pembroke Dock Heritage Centre and its bid to salvage T9044 which sank in the Haven in 1940.

oZSY2jwtEso

[Wander00]

Roving - that's the man' Last seen as Captain of Barton on Sea Golf Club. Had seen in the Lymington Times that I had become Secretary of Royal Lymington Yacht Club, and called in to invite me to lunch, a very kind and much appreciated gesture

[MPN11]

A good video of the Hendon Sunderland, ML824, showing well its cavernous interior.

Thanks, Chugalug. Just shown that to the OH ... it was her father's aircraft in WW2, when he was Nav/Head Chef. Apparently he excelled in the latter, and must have been competent in the former as he (and crew) survived! He was invited to Hendon when NS-Z was officially unveiled ... I think he was Lord Mayor of Wstminster at the time.

[roving]

For those who enjoyed the book "The Go Between" there is a wonderful line

"The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there".

It must be a sign of my advancing age or perhaps that this year is not merely the 100th anniversary of my father's birth, but almost exactly a decade since his death, that I seem to have a clearer memory of events in my childhood associated with my dad's career, than at any time.

If it helps prevent the onset of Alzheimer's disease, I make no apology for sharing those wonderful memories.

The Royal Air Force was in the 1950's and 1960's very protective of the "brats" especially the ex pat brats. I hope it still is.

RAF KL had a very busy runway. Wikipedia suggests it had more air movements than any other runway in the World at that time. Whether that is true or not, is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the MQs were on a hill which rose up on one side of the camp and from the garden I had a clear view of the runway.

KL was not a holiday resort like Seletar. No beach or sailing club. I do not even think it had a tennis court. But it did have a swimming pool with a NAAFI where I would while away time. Aside from the pool there was the cubs. School was on an Army Camp k/a Batu Cantonment, to which I was bused every day along with other brats living on the Camp, one of whom and just four months younger than me, was the son of the Staish.

All the operational parts of the Camp were of course off limits.

For one day in the month of April 1958 that rule was lifted. In the afternoon and early evening (it went dark at 6.00pm) I was taken to the Tower and later as dusk descended, travelled along the runway in the fire engine watching the firemen light the gooseneck flares.

KL was not only a RAF Station but was also 'the civilian aerodrome for the capital of the country. The year before, in 1957, Malaya had gained its independence and had its own airline and and was creating its own air force

I cannot recall whether all three ATC in the Tower were civilian, but one was certainly a Malaysian.

How do I recall that?

Because there came a point where food was produced and we all tucked in. Two of the men laughed and one of them explained that the third man was a Muslim and as it was the festival of Ramadan, he was supposed to fast until dusk -- and the speaker exclaimed, which caused great mirth -- he cheats.

I checked, as I usually do before posting these recollections, and the month long festival of Ramadan was indeed in the month of April in 1958.

So what great event gave rise to a 9 year old boy being invited to learn about ATC and lighting runway flares? It certainly was not my birthday. that is in November.

The answer is provided by a varnished broken wooden spar which bears the words "Chas, in memory of our arrival at Fort Langkap, Frank".

On 16 April 1958 Frank Barnes, the OC of 194 Sqn (later stationed at Tern Hill when my dad was at Shawbury) flew my dad in a Sycamore to conduct an aerial survey of a Single Engine Pioneer which one of the pilots on B Flight 267 Sqn, had managed to park on the jungle canopy which rises up to 200 feet, when making the near vertical climb from Fort Langkap.

I have some wonderful colour slides my dad took of the Single Pin resting on top of the trees, together with a photograph of Frank Barnes wearing his bone dome grinning through the front screen of the Sycamore as my dad took his picture.

Why the broken spar and the photograph? The Sycamore lost power and it came crashing down through the canopy to the ground below.Needless to say it was a write-off.

The golden rule the pilots were taught on the jungle survival course was "always stay with the aircraft".

When a Valetta came down, sadly killing the air crew, the loaders in back, who had been instructed to belt-up, survived. But one had decided to try to hack his way out of the jungle. Although the Valetta was quickly discovered, it took the SAS two days to find the young man who had wandered off.

I do not know how long it took to find my dad and Frank Barnes and extract them, but my guess is that the decision was taken that I should be occupied well away from the house until my dad's status was established and communicated to my mother.

I did speak to my dad about this incident 10 years ago. His memory was very clear about it and he proudly told me that he had a small gash which did not prevent him flying 24 hours later.

As for the survey, he told me he wanted to see if the Single Pin could be extracted and repaired. Alas like the Sycamore, it was a write-off.

A postscript is that Wing Commander Frank Barnes AFC Rtd. went out to the Middle East when he left the Service to Abu Dhabi's Defence Force and later run an aviation company in Bahrain and tried to persuade my dad to go with him. As in 1946, my dad politely declined.

Gulf Daily News » Local News » Second World War hero Frank Barnes mourned (http://archives.gdnonline.com/NewsDetails.aspx?date=04/07/2015&storyid=311307)

[Danny42C]

roving (#11467),
..."The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there"...[L.P.Hartley].
Have often used that wonderful quotation myself - and how true ! - you cannot judge the past by the standards of the present.

Now, can anyone identify the source of another quotation which I have used ad nauseam: "We each (all?) had to fight the war we were given" ? ... A "Search this Thread" fingers "kookabat, date 4/7/09, Page 46, #913, as the first user - but the text of that Post makes no mention of the words.

?????
Danny.

[harrym]

Geriaviator, re your #11457 I have checked back on my previous contributions to this estimable thread and much regret that my stock of memoirs (the interesting ones, anyway) is now exhausted, and so anything further from me will be of the tit-bit variety as & when stirred into action by the contributions of others!

Which is a convenient lead-in to WarmToast's superb China Bay pix. Routed one day from Changi to Negombo, we were scheduled to make a quick stop at China Bay. Approaching from the east a straight-in to the long runway was no problem, but as we trundled to the far end after landing there appeared to be a small obstruction ahead - which turned out to be a local with his back to us pushing a large wheelbarrow who looked faintly surprised as, taxying slowly past, I gave him a friendly wave.

I was subsequently informed this was a fairly common occurrence; seeing little use the runway was much frequented by cattle, their inevitable deposits being much appreciated by locals for use on their vegetable gardens; why it was not thought necessary to publicise this fact to visiting aircraft was not explained.

[Fareastdriver]

Single Engine Pioneer which one of the pilots on B Flight 267 Sqn, had managed to park on the jungle canopy which rises up to 200 feet, when making the near vertical climb from Fort Langkap.

Somebody did that near Long Pasir in North Borneo in 1966.

[roving]

I think the Sunderland was a really beautiful aircraft and so functional. 209 Sqn at Seletar operated them. When the Sunderlands were pensioned off, 267 Sqn was rebranded as 209 Sqm shortly after we left KL, and the following year, with the Emergency in Malaya at an end, 209 moved back to Seletar. In addition to the Single Pins, Pembrokes and DC3s, it acquired Twin Pins.

[roving]

Somebody did that near Long Pasir in North Borneo in 1966.
That is amazing.

[Fareastdriver]

That is amazing.

Even more amazing was that they were unhurt and walked back down to Long Pasir.

[MPN11]

In the Pioneering spirit (sorry) let us not forget that 20 Sqn at Tengah acquired a handful (3-4) Single Pins for FAC work when their original operators <insert Sqn No.> disbanded at Seletar. Hunter mates who were already Op were offered the option to convert to type during the latter part of their tour.

This made 20 the last RAF fighter squadron to operate a single piston aircraft ;)

I have a photo or 3, including one Fg Off P Sq***e getting his SP Op Pot at the Gemas jungle strip. Will scan and post on request.

[Brian 48nav]

Insert Sqn No. - it was 209 Sqn.

PS was of course a future CAS - 5 of his Cranwell entry were across the island as co-pilots on 48 - 3 of whom I see occasionally, 1 sadly RIP and the other ( a strange chap who was also on 30 with me ) seems to have vanished from the face of the earth!

[ancientaviator62]

roving,
was the KL airfield you mentioned Simpang ? The one with the railway line running across one end ?

[roving]

roving,
was the KL airfield you mentioned Simpang ? The one with the railway line running across one end ?

I think it is. This from wiki.

Sempang Airport (ICAO: WMKF) is an airport in Kuala Lumpur. It is also known as TUDM Kuala Lumpur, Old Airport, Sungai Besi Airport or Sempang Air Force Base.

It served as the main airport for Kuala Lumpur from 1952 to 1965 under the name Kuala Lumpur International Airport,[3] until the main airport was moved to Subang International Airport. It was the first airport to serve Kuala Lumpur and currently remains as the only airport to be located within the boundaries of Kuala Lumpur Federal Territory.

Formerly known as RAF Kuala Lumpur, today it is used by the Royal Malaysian Air Force (Malay: Tentera Udara DiRaja Malaysia), Royal Malaysian Police Air Wing, and the air unit of the Malaysian Fire and Rescue Department.

---

Back in the day there were photographs of it which included the Tower but when I last looked they were no longer visible..

Once a week a BOAC Britannia would fly in.

[ancientaviator62]

I went to Simpang several times when I was on the Group EU and we did our annual visit to the RMAF. Simpang was fine for the Caribou but for the C130 the TOW had to be considerably reduced. The joke was that as well as consulting the ODM you needed also to consult the railway timetable !
They had a flying club there and it was very nice to sit and have a wind down beer after a busy day.

[roving]

Here you go the year I described yesterday, 1958, RAF KL in colour plus all the operations from there courtesy of the RNAZ, who flew Argosies from there too.

SeQ8U8apmbg&t=350

[Danny42C]

Let us be upstanding and raise a glass tonight to celebrate the Natal Day (tomorrow) of one of our most respected and prolific contributors:-

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, MPN11 !

Danny42C.

[FantomZorbin]

I echo Danny's good wishes.
From one former member of SODCAT to another ... a Happy Birthday MPN11

[ancientaviator62]

roving,
very nice video of the RAZAF and their Bristol 'Frighteners'. Had a couple of trips in them when I was at Changi with 48 Squadron. As I recall they used to trundle off to Cocos on a regular basis. Must have been an interesting trip ! They also used to ship cars home in them from Singapore.

[Wander00]

Well said Danny. Happy Birthday MPN11

[Fareastdriver]

They also used to ship cars home in them from Singapore

I believe that at the time NZ was virtually going broke and it was almost impossible to import a new car; the streets of Auckland were starting to look like the streets of Havana.

However, those lucky enough to posted to Changi were allowed to import a new car because it was bought with 'overseas funds' despite it being NZ money given to them in Singapore.

[Brian 48nav]

Happy Birthday!

Continuing the thread drift - were you on duty at Tengah when a Herc' from Changi burst a tyre during a roller landing and blocked your runway?

[roving]

roving,
very nice video of the RAZAF and their Bristol 'Frighteners'. Had a couple of trips in them when I was at Changi with 48 Squadron. As I recall they used to trundle off to Cocos on a regular basis. Must have been an interesting trip ! They also used to ship cars home in them from Singapore.

Singapore must have been a wonderful posting in the 1960's.

I knew I had got my a/c recognition wrong, but was too distracted yesterday to do anything about it. Thank you for correcting me.

I read your post about 209 and the Towers mafia, including P.S.

Talking of which, P Le C was WC flying KL for the first two years of my dad's tour there. We inherited the dog when he left on promotion in 57.

I was reading recently some of Danny's highly informative and entertaining posts dating from 2013. In one he described his arrival to a posting in Germany in, I think, the late 1950's and mentioned P Le C being the Staish there. P Le C (in common with Sandy Johnstone) returned to FEAF as AVM in the 1960's. My dad was a great admirer and was delighted that he got to the top of the flag pole. He is 97 now.

[olympus]

P le C

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Le_Cheminant

He also wrote a most interesting memoir of his time in the RAF:- The Royal Air Force: A Personal Experience Ian Allan Publishing, 2001.

[roving]

Yes. I keep thinking I must buy a copy. He didn't just command from an office, he actually flew Pioneers into the jungle forts and in the book he provided a description of them.

Welcome to IpohWorld.org Database Search Engine sponsored by iosc.NET- Admin System (http://db.ipohworld.org/view/id/3343)

[roving]

Fort Telanok (VK 46 50):

First known as Net when 848 NAS’s WV191 crashed here on 30 May 1954. On 17 Jun 1954 WV194 carried out a tractor lift from Fort Shean to Fort Net. A report dated 8 July 1954 refers to two 848 NAS Whirlwinds carrying out an exchange of the garrison at Telanok rather than Net.


Easy Peasy. Clear the trees, cut the engine, it floats down, wait until just above the strip & power-up and park it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxgFK5qmceM

CxgFK5qmceM

[MPN11]

Let us be upstanding and raise a glass tonight to celebrate the Natal Day (tomorrow) of one of our most respected and prolific contributors:-

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, MPN11 !My dear Sir, how very kind of you to hoist that flag! :ok:

I could be curmudgeonly and decline the appellation of 'respected', but I do admit to wittering on a bit randomly on occasions ;)

My thanks to the rest of you, of course. I'm glad to still be here, especially with the tragic attrition rate of ATC contemporaries these days.

And what the hell was SODCAT, FZ? That rings a bell, but that's all!

Brian 48Nav ... no recollection of the C130 puncture, I'm afraid.

roving ... yes, Singapore (and indeed all of FEAF) in the 60s could be descibed as amazing, operationally and socially. Three main RAF airfields on the island, an extraordinary range of aircraft types of assorted vintages (!) ... it was indeed an Air Force in miniature, with every single capability reflected including 1574 (?) Target Facilities Flight at Changi with their Meteors!

[roving]

Society of Directional Consultants and Allied Trades

Happy Birthday MPN11.

[MPN11]

Ah, thanks (x 2)

[Chugalug2]

Just about made it under the wire! Happy Birthday MPN11 (what's left of it anyway!) :ok:

[Brian 48nav]

April 8th 1968, tomorrow's local flying programme appears in Nav Ldr's office - shock horror! A day slot showing FEAF SASO AVM Le Cheminant paired with the OC Changi, Grp Capt Merriman for famil' with the "Mighty C130"!

Older wiser and more senior navs beat a hasty retreat, claiming all sorts of sickness. Lowly 21 year old Plt Off B48N is not quick enough and lo and behold his name fills the vacant nav' slot. The same thing happened when the night programme appeared.

2 weeks before, I had been 'chosen' from a cast of 21 navs to fill the slot when the trappers arrived from UK and Sqn Ldr Mike Nash ( top man ,sadly RIP ) was programmed to carry out Grp Capt Merriman's day & night cat'.

I like to think that I impressed the Staish so much that he asked for me personally when the time came to show SASO 48's new machine - only joking!!!

As it turned out I discovered that Staish had done an exchange tour with the USAF on Hercs' before the RAF got theirs, so he was the most experienced pilot on type at Changi. Sir P Le C seemed to enjoy flying the beast and I guessed was a very competent if somewhat rusty pilot. His visual approaches seemed to be quite low and many years later when I bought his memoir I found out why - he was an ex- Sunderland driver.

[ICM]

Danny - on the Flying Suit thread you quoted one of your previous posts here in which you made the point that the Kachin tribes of Northern Burma had been reasonably well-disposed towards us and that the occupying Japanese had regularly taken what they needed at gunpoint. I understand that, to help make things difficult for the enemy, they had been persuaded to destroy their rice stocks and, when the war ended, an obligation to assist them had been created.

10 Squadron had been a 4 Gp Halifax unit until VE Day when, with others, it had been transferred to convert to Dakotas for transport duty in India. In March 1946, when based at Poona, it went on detachment to Burma to carry out airdrops of rice and salt from Meiktila and Myitkyina. Despite challenging weather and terrain, all was going well until 29 March when three aircraft with crews and dispatchers were lost on the same day. Searches from the air and on the ground were initiated and, eventually, on the morning of 3 April, an Indian Army Sepoy was spotted. He was onboard as a dispatcher and had either been thrown out of the door or had jumped at the last moment. Further searches were carried out but no further survivors were found. 15 British personnel and 4 Indian troops were lost that day. The airdrop task continued and the Squadron returned to Poona towards the end of April, some 20 days earlier than expected, largely due to the intensive flying rate achieved - some 2855 hours over 40 days. Hopefully, that wartime obligation had been fully discharged.

[Danny42C]

ICM (#11495),

I hope so, too. We owed them, after all. I only heard about the rice drops, as I was far away by then.

Danny.

[Icare9]

B48N: You probably already know this but maybe others will find a little ineterest..
Air Commodore Peter Merriman - obituary - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/10514050/Air-Commodore-Peter-Merriman-obituary.html)

[olympus]

As the thread has been quiet for a few days, could I take the opportunity to recommend a book which I have just finished which, apart from the 'in WW II' bit, captures the spirit of the thread completely.

The book is entitled 'Flight Cadet' by Rutherford M Hancock, a New Zealander who was one of the first RNZAF cadets to be sent for training at Cranwell. (The RAF had many New Zealanders serving but Hank Hancock was one of the first two cadets from the RNZAF).

Lots of the detail so beloved by Ppruners both of the training and cadet life at Cranwell and of life generally in the UK in the early fifties. He must have kept a diary or written it contemporaneously as it is full of names, places and dates.

Very readable and highly recommended!

[thegypsy]

Off topic completely but a WW11 story.

For the first three years of WW11 my father was a Flying Instructor on Oxfords at RAF South Cerney ending up Flight Commander of C Flight. Came across this letter whilst sorting out some papers having moved house.

On a day when he was not in the office a Polish Pilot who he had been teaching dropped in to say goodbye but he was not there so he wrote to my father as follows on 28th August 1941

Dear Flt Lt Sir

Forgive me please for writing this letter to you. Because I want to say you good Baye and good luck Sir.

I am very sorry I did not say when I was leaving station.

But it was impossible because you have not been in flight in your office.

But by the letter I say you very much thanks to you Sir and I wish to myself to have always Flight Commander a like you Sir because really you was like you Sir because really you was like Father for us. I do like you very much Sir.

I will never forget this school and my Flt Lt Mr so yet ones many thanks for you Sir and everything what did you for me Sir when I have been in that school. Let God keep you always safety for whole your life and let your life it will always happy.

But never sad that is wishes from one of your pupils from last course.

I am very sorry7 if something in this letter is no good English. With hoping you will always happy Sir!

Yours sincerely Polish pupil Waclaw Niezrecki

I did a bit of research and found he survived the war ending up with DFM and AFC and Flt Lt and in 1953 was on Meteor 7's as Master Pilot.

He was in 301 Squadron and was a Wellington Co Pilot involved in a crash 16th Jan 1942 on return from Hamburg and also 27/28 April 1942 again as co pilot crash landed back due flap damage. His No was 782373 No idea what he did in war after these two crashes.

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

The contribution made by the Polish and and Czech pilots should never be forgotten, especially for their sterling performance in the BOB. My father's primary instructor at 3 EFTS in June 1942 was a F/O Meretinsky. I have never been able to learn anything about him - would love to know his story.

Ian BB

[thegypsy]

Further to my earlier post re Flight Sgt Niezrecki. I notice he was a co pilot in the Jan 1942 incident and three moths later he was still a co pilot in the end of April 1942 incident.

I mention this as my Uncle was the sole pilot in his Wellington from No 40 Squadron which came down in the sea off Wilhelmshaven also in Jan 1942.

When exactly did the RAF go to single pilot operation on Bombers? Apart of course using second dickeys for them to get experience before being let loose on their own something which I believe all pilots had to do initially.

Correction Just noticed my Uncle did have a co pilot so above question is pertinent.