Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II [Archive] - Page 28

harrym

16th Feb 2015, 17:33

Sorry Danny, I don't recall much (if anything) about my initial crewing-up at Bomber OTU, nor what happened after the unit was switched to Transport! Anyway, here is the first part of my account of HK life in '46.........

Finally at full strength at Kai Tak around the end of April 1946, 96 Sqdn was faced with using its C-47s to operate a tenuous network of scheduled services covering Japan in the east, Singapore to the south and Calcutta to the west plus of course points in between; there were also flights to other places from time to time, but our main task was to provide what was in effect a military airline totally devoid of airline-style comforts that, in the almost total absence of any civil airlines serving this vast area, also offered limited provision for civilian passengers. Following an aborted flight to Chungking as co-pilot, in mid May my crew & I found ourselves pitched in at the deep end operating one of the newly-established schedules to our main Japanese base at Iwakuni, located in the British zone of the main island.

Given Kai Tak's close proximity to local terrain and the limitations thus imposed, only daylight operations were permitted and in fact my log book records no night flying whatever from this time on until demob later in the year; which of course meant that all route departures were early to mid-morning, while arrivals tended to be later in the day. The flight to Iwakuni was accomplished in two stages, first day to Shanghai and then after a night stop on to Japan. Rather than proceed direct to Shanghai our route took us round the curve of China's south eastern coast though whether this was for diplomatic reasons or just to avoid the usual Cu-nim build-up overland I don't know, but it gave us a good view of historic places such as Amoy, Swatow and others where it was interesting to notice that traditional craft such as junks and suchlike considerably outnumbered western-style shipping.

After a five and a half hour flight we arrived at Lunghwa, a long-vanished airfield on the south west outskirts of Shanghai that was shared with the USAAF and also the Chinese Air Force. I recall little of our road trip into the city, other than travelling along the Bund and noticing the various mercantile and other buildings that looked mostly larger and more numerous than those of Hong Kong, eventually being deposited at what I think was (or had been, pre-war) a seaman's mission in the old International Settlement area. It appeared to be run mainly by local staff who provided reasonable bar and grub facilities, so there was little need to venture into the town which at that time had little to offer anyway other than money changers, of which there seemed to be many for rampant inflation was beginning to take off – the rate then was about 250 yuan to $1HK, and became noticeably greater on each subsequent visit.

A further 4.30 hr flight the next day brought us to Iwakuni, situated on Japan's inland sea close to Hiroshima – or what was left of it. The over-water part of the trip had been clear but much of western Japan was clouded over, so we were pleased when the cloud broke as we approached our destination and caught a first glimpse of the devastated city prior to landing – a sobering sight, which we able to inspect in more detail during the next few days. My log book records we spent several days here, eventually departing in a different aircraft from the one we brought in but no details other than we flew three air tests carrying out radio checks - for what purpose I can't recall.

However this caused us no grief, for time passed in a cooler climate was not unwelcome; indeed it inclined at times to the chilly side against which our rather scruffy 'uniforms', a mixture of jungle green and KD, offered scant protection so the availability of a traditional Nipponese bath house was a decided boon. This facility, located not far from our block and adjacent to the main boiler house, offered not only copious showers but also what resembled a shallow swimming pool at least 20ft square that was filled with clean hot water about 3 ½ ft deep. Nobody else on the base seemed to use it, so (following the local way of life) after a blissful shower we passed a good deal of time just lolling about in the pool where, despite its lack of depth, swimming was just about possible.

The air tests facilitated a proper low level recce of Hiroshima, which in effect resembled nothing more than a giant rubble heap. True, the roads had been cleared so there was a recognisable street plan but otherwise nothing standing at all apart from a very occasional steel-framed shell, while apart from a few pedestrians, a very occasional tramcar and the odd vehicle there was little sign of life; to look on which, and realise that just one bomb was responsible, left an impression that remains with me to this day. Few alive now can claim to have seen a nuclear-obliterated city with their own eyes, and I do honestly believe that if it were possible to wind the clock back so that those in power today could see it too, then there might be less sabre-rattling and stupid talk of possible great power conflict; for, make no mistake, any use of nuclear weapons would inevitably escalate and that would be that – finis.

After our return we seem to have been idle for the first half of June, but the latter half saw us accumulate 50 hours of flight to various destinations - Changi via Saigon, Shanghai & return, then up to Iwakuni again. Throughout the whole of my 1945-46 sojourn in the SEAC area I kept a record of all loads carried, mostly pretty mundane stuff but maybe of some interest here & there: mostly a mixture of passengers, freight & mail but from mid-July onwards I noted civilian passengers as well as military, while on 12th June we carried a Jap war criminal from Saigon to Changi (wonder what happened to him?).

Sector times on this sort of work were generally greater than in the Burma theatre – Hong Kong to Saigon could stretch to seven hours as against a normal 5 ¾ if bad weather were encountered – so the Dak's Sperry autopilot was a highly valued piece of equipment. The control box, mounted in the centre panel just forward of the throttles, carried the Horizon and DI from which it obtained attitude and heading information, these instruments also being a useful back-up to those on the pilots' panels, while it was also possible, by using the independent speed controls, to adjust the servos' rate of response to any displacement or correction. Failure (in my experience anyway) was virtually unknown, and I have to say that Mr Sperry's piece of kit far outclassed anything to be found on home-built aircraft even ten years later.

jeffb

17th Feb 2015, 04:26

Danny, you were quite correct in your post this was the RAF,s most costly raid of the war. I first became aware of this when Dad started making comparisions of ''then vs. now" during that Faulklands War, and later during the first Persian Gulf War. Early on after joining Bomber Command, the aircrew were advised that losses would happen, in fact the phrase 'sustainable losses' was often used. The crews were told that the planners made provisions that a 4% loss rate was acceptable; anything under 4% RAF could simultaneously expand their force while still maintaining offensive operations.
On the Neuremberg raid 95 bombers were lost, but RAF policy at the time was to count only those aircraft that were lost over European soil as losses. Aircraft abandoned over England, crashed on landing, or were written off by battle damage were not included in that total. I hope someone may confirm or correct me, but I also believe aircraft ditched in the North Sea were not included in the total. For these reasons a further 12 to 14 aircraft were denied any further use for operations, but were not included in the total. This makes the true loss of aircraft close to 110 on this single raid.
Dad listened to the reporters covering the Faulklands War listing the loss rate ( undreamed of during the Battle of Berlin), and concluded that the spin doctors were including almost every flight made in the theatre that day, divided by any losses incurred. He felt it was comparing apples to oranges, and that him and his comrades in Bomber Command had their contribution artificially downplayed. Despite the unimaginable horrors he experienced in ops and life as a POW, he mostly focused on the positive and humourous side of squadron and POW life. I only recall him being put out by 2 events; one was manipulation of loss numbers; the other was an intense dislike and disgust for a single officer

Danny42C

17th Feb 2015, 23:18

jeffb,

Thank you for sharing some of your late Father's recollections with us.

Your Dad's estimate of 110 losses on the raid would show an even more horrifying figure of 13.5% overall (or more than 1/7 of the aircraft involved). 4% sounds bad enough, but at least a bomber crew might have been able to derive some small comfort from the arithmetical fact that they had a 96% chance of survival on each individual raid. Of course we know now that the overall chance for a bomber crew's survival for the whole war was no more than about 55%, but on each trip the "luck counter" is reset to zero, as it were, and hope springs eternal.

I believe that our aircrew in Bomber Command had the second worst survival rate of all the combatant categories on both sides: only surpassed by the German Navy's U-Boat crews (and that was probably due, in no small measure, to the work of Bletchley Park).

Now your remark: "Despite the unimaginable horrors he experienced in ops and life as a POW, he mostly focused on the positive and humourous side of squadron and POW life..." must have awakened more than my curiousity. What tales did he tell you over the years ? Please pass on to us all you can remember, for the number of living witnesses is now very small indeed, and soon it will be only you, the next generation, which can add anything new to the story of our "finest hour". Remember Fred (RIP), who once said on this Thread that he'd been "on the run from the Gestapo for six weeks" (and now the story is lost for ever).

Cheers, Danny.

jeffb

18th Feb 2015, 02:34

The losses on this raid were at first not believed by CO,s and Intelligence Officers, as chronicled in the book The Red Line by John Nichol, a book describing this disaster. Many, when describing the fantastic and continuous losses, were dismissed as not being possible. Some were told by disbelieving officers to get their act together and tell what the truth, not outrageous claims. In this book, a gunner from, coincidently from Dad,s 166 squadron, when told by the IO that 795 aircraft set out, told the IO to strike off the odd ( 700 odd aircraft) number- a very accurate accurate number met with disbelief at first. 166 squadron lost 4 Lancasters that night.
The crews were aware of the odds of survival; they knew that if you put three airmen in a room, the odds in Bomber Command at that time were that one would be killed; one would be injured or captured; and one would survive. They always regarded themselves as the guy who made it through; they had the lucky charm, the ritual, the training, the tricks of the trade to survive; it was always the other guy who made a mistake and got the chop. This was the only way they could face ops night after night.
Two crew members were changed during the time at Kirmington. The Flt Engineer was, at the Skippers insistence, replaced after the first op. About the 7th or so op the mid upper couldn,t take it any longer; as has been outlined in previous posts he was quietly but very quickly removed from the Station and a new gunner assigned.
The crews very much kept to themselves, not really getting to know other crews by much more than casual passing. However, they were fiercely close to each other, even having their Skipper, a PO, borrow some Flt Sgt,s tunic to have a pint with them in Sgt,s mess

Ian Burgess-Barber

18th Feb 2015, 14:29

harrym

I find it incredible that, barely 9 years after the Wright Bros. first flights, the ingenious Mr Sperry invented his autopilot, something that most of us would have thought of as an invention of a much later era.
See Wiki:

"The first aircraft autopilot was developed by Sperry Corporation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperry_Corporation) in 1912. The autopilot connected a gyroscopic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyroscopic) heading indicator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heading_indicator) and attitude indicator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attitude_indicator) to hydraulically operated elevators (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elevator_%28aircraft%29) and rudder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudder) (ailerons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aileron) were not connected as wing dihedral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihedral_%28aircraft%29) was counted upon to produce the necessary roll stability.) It permitted the aircraft to fly straight and level on a compass course without a pilot's attention, greatly reducing the pilot's workload.
Lawrence Sperry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Sperry) (the son of famous inventor Elmer Sperry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmer_Sperry)) demonstrated it in 1914 at an aviation safety contest held in Paris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris). At the contest, Sperry demonstrated the credibility of the invention by flying the aircraft with his hands away from the controls and visible to onlookers of the contest. Elmer Sperry Jr., the son of Lawrence Sperry, and Capt Shiras continued work after the war on the same auto-pilot, and in 1930 they tested a more compact and reliable auto-pilot which kept a US Army Air Corps aircraft on a true heading and altitude for three hours".

Talk about ahead of the pack!

Ian BB

Warmtoast

18th Feb 2015, 16:38

Flight Global has an illustration of the device here:
gyroscopic stabilizer | sperry gyroscopic | automatic stabilizer | 1915 | 0074 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1915/1915%20-%200074.html?search=sperry)

Would have made Mr Heath Robinson envious!

Fareastdriver

18th Feb 2015, 20:25

Put a glass bubble over it and you have a V force NBS computer.

Danny42C

18th Feb 2015, 22:50

harrym (your #6761),

I've been going through your very interesting account of early post-war air transport arrangements in SE Asia, and it would seem that the C-47s were carrying all the load as far as the RAF were concerned. You seem to have been doing a lot of long-hauls with your Daks. I had no connection with them other than as a satisfied customer, and I remember looking at the Sperry autopilot (I suppose it was the first on the US market): it must have been a boon on the thousand-mile trips you'd have to do.

In India during the war, I don't think they ever did much more than 4-hour legs (the Delhi-Calcutta route [800 miles] was well within range of a Dak), but they had an intermediate stop at Allahabad (roughly half-way). I think with 30-odd pax plus crew and one Elsan in the back, that might have been a consideration, for there'd be no more requirement for let-downs and pick-ups there than in a hundred other large towns in the country, it was just Allahabad's luck to be in the right place, I suppose.

Looking up the Dak's Specifications (C-47B-DK) on Wiki, it seems that "Range" is given as 1600 miles, but a "Ferry Range" of 3600 # miles. How can this be ? Where on earth could the extra 2000 miles have come from ? I don't remember ever seeing a Dak with any form of external stores. Would that mean additional fuel in tanks inside the stripped-out fuselage (and the pipework and pumps to transfer it ?) Did you ever hear of such a thing ?

I recall the Curtis C-46 "Commando", we had some sharing our strip in Madhaiganj (W.Bengal), it was a sort of overgrown C-47, the China National Aviation Corporation (that distant ancestor of Cathay Pacific) used them, I believe, in your part of the world. With a payload of 15,000 lbs and a range of 3,150 miles (Wiki), it could have been very useful, but I understand that it had a woeful accident record and not many were built (in comparison with the tens of thousands of C-47s which went into service with most of the world's airforces, and which dominated the civil air routes all round the globe for years to come - and are flying yet !). Did you ever come into contact with the C-46 ?

You are quite right about the Atom Bomb; Like it or not, Mutually Assured Destruction (and nothing else) has kept WWIII off the table these past 60 years; long may it remain so; and it underlines the utter folly of even contemplating discarding Trident before something even more effective in resisting nuclear blackmail can be found to take its place.

Danny.

ricardian

18th Feb 2015, 23:49

Chelsea Pensioner Peter Carrie has reached his 100th birthday! He served with both the Army and the RAF, and served in Bomber Command during WWII. Last year he was awarded his RAF Bomber Command clasp, making him the only Chelsea Pensioner to receive his award.

https://scontent-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10451162_1067543366622407_6683254725525934442_n.jpg?oh=5fa4b 9f3ffffd9614a381371787080f9&oe=558B4D78

topgas

19th Feb 2015, 07:53

Looking up the Dak's Specifications (C-47B-DK) on Wiki, it seems that "Range" is given as 1600 miles, but a "Ferry Range" of 3600 # miles. How can this be ? Where on earth could the extra 2000 miles have come from ? I don't remember ever seeing a Dak with any form of external stores. Would that mean additional fuel in tanks inside the stripped-out fuselage (and the pipework and pumps to transfer it ?) Did you ever hear of such a thing ?

It looks like they were plumbed for nine 100 US gallon internal tanks for ferrying, more than doubling the 805 US gallon standard fuel, according to C-47/Dakota (http://www.dc3history.org/c47dakota.html)

"The cylindrical plastic and rubberized tanks were held in wooden cradles."

Ian Burgess-Barber

19th Feb 2015, 11:38

topgas

According to the Army Air Forces Pilot Training Manual for the C-47, (page 84)

"Extreme range is computed on the following basis (1200 gallons maximum, at 6 lbs. per gallon; four fuselage tanks; no reserve): 31,000-27,000 lbs. gross weight with 7200 lbs. of fuel".

The maximum range that is given for that for that configuration is 2848 miles (at 27000 lbs. gross, 138 IAS, 16:50 Hrs.Mins at 12,000-14,000 feet).

Danny

If "Ice Pilots" comes back on the TV you will be able to enjoy their experiences with the two C-46s that they still operate, and they do say that they are the most difficult aircraft on their fleet to handle!

Visit Buffalo Airways: Your passage to the North. - Home (http://www.buffaloairways.com)

Ian BB

harrym

19th Feb 2015, 17:26

Danny, I think your query re C-47 range has been answered by Ian B-B and topgas; I have seen Daks at Hickam (Honolulu), and they certainly could not have got there using standard tankage. I have a vague memory that the requisite internal plumbing was pre-installed in all of them, and was readily accessible under the floor though I must confess to never having seen it with my own eyes.

As for the C-46, I think this was briefly discussed in a previous post some time back. They did indeed have a rather indifferent reputation in the SE Asia theatre which I believe was largely due to the unreliability of their props' constant speed mechanism, being all-electric rather than the conventional oil - the electrics did not like the monsoon climate. On the other hand, I looked over one at Nassau in '75/76 and it seemed in pretty good shape.

Ian B-B: thanks for the Sperry info, had no idea that autopilot history went back such a long way; interesting to know too, that the C-46 still serves!

jeffb

19th Feb 2015, 23:49

Some of the events that took place at 166 squadron were a study in contrasts at time. One Friday Dad and another crew were tasked with a cross country nav exercise. The weather was terrible, and as Dad said, we never should have gone, but there,s a war on. Dad departed about 10 minutes after the first crew, and after about an hour the expected happened, and both ac were ordered to return to base due to deteriorating weather. When they got back the weather was barely flyable, they just got in; the other crew, having taken off first, were about 20 minutes behind. By that time the weather really went south; the broke out and snuggled up close to the first set of runway lights they found. The captain thought they were landing just to the right of the left flare path, instead it was the right side flare path he was next to-he was landing beside rather than on the runway. he misjudged the flare, hit, kangaroo hopped up to about 30 feet, whereupon the Lanc stalled and hit a second time with sufficient force to collapse both gears. It skidded to a halt, no fire, everyone got out uninjured. It was then that they found out they had landed off the runway. As no ops were planned, and the ac wasn,t blocking the runway, the CO decided to leave the Lanc were it was until Monday. Apparently salvage of the ac were not performed by RAF crews, but rather by civilian personelle, who worked day Monday to Friday, days only; anything outside that was subject to overtime, which the CO didn,t want to pay, so it sat there.
Once the formalities over, everyone heads to the mess for have a few pints to settle jangled nerves. About supper time the MP,s come in, apparently a civilian electrician can, t find his car; it was a small one, a Morris or Austin I believe- has anyone seen it? Nobody had, but then it was not unheard of, especially on a Friday for some crew to borrow transport to trips further afield; it was not uncommon to find the car abandoned a short distance from the base the next morning. In fact, someone, either the SWO or the Adj, had been known, in previous occurances, to arrange to a liberal quantity of 100 octane to ''fall" into the fuel tank in an effort to smooth ruffled feathers.
Saturday came no car found, by Sunday the MP,ss were getting quite frantic and insistant in their inquiries, but nothing found, at least, until Monday morning. The Lanc was hoisted, gear pinned down, and someone noticed the bomb bay doors looked funny, damage was not consistent with skidding along the grass. Further investigation showed the missing car snuggled right in the middle of the bomb bay- the doors had folded around it when the aircraft came down, and nobody noticed while it rested on it,s belly. The crew never even saw it prior to the crash and were totally unaware it was even there.
After that, the jokes was, when a nav couldn,t find his pencil, or a guuner his parachute or whatever, the reply was-Have you looked in W----,s bomb bay??

mmitch

20th Feb 2015, 10:13

I wonder if that got in the ORB or a photo was taken?
Brilliant.
mmitch

Danny42C

20th Feb 2015, 18:11

jeffb,

Thanks for a splendid story ! But lightning can strike twice (read my #3354, p.168 - "The Tale of the Gaydon Vulcan"). But in that case, the prides and joys of Flying Wing did not escape so easily.

Did your Dad say what happened to the Baby Austin (or whatever) that was nestling under the Lanc like a chick under a hen ? If it was the common "open tourer" variety, the front screen was folded forward and the hood and sidescreens stowed, there might have been enough "ground clearance" to avoid further damage other than that caused by breaking through the bomb doors.

Danny.

PS: There is a good story about a Baby Austin on Page 185 (my #3686).

jeffb

21st Feb 2015, 12:26

Danny:
With the aircraft stalling and hitting sufficiently hard to cause both main gears to fold, it must have been quite a force. That being said, it was not sufficient to puncture the top of the bomb bay. I am sure people visited the wreck over the weekend, but nobody noticed the clues that the crew had picked up something extra along the way!
I do believe the vehicle was destroyed. This begs the question, were vehicles of that period insured? If so that must have been quite the claim. Dad seems to feel that it was a case of sorry about you luck, you are out a car.
Interestingly enough in Canada, automobile insurance policies have a standard list of exclusion- damage from falling aircraft is one of them! Perhaps whoever inserted that clause was a long lost cousin of this unfortunate electrician!

Danny42C

21st Feb 2015, 20:44

jeffb,

In response to your: "I do believe the vehicle was destroyed. This begs the question, were vehicles of that period insured? If so that must have been quite the claim. Dad seems to feel that it was a case of sorry about you luck, you are out a car".

Yes, the law was that you had to have Third Party Insurance before you could tax the car and legally go on the road. That, of course, only covered you for the damage you might do to other persons or their property. Next step up (and more expensive) was Third Party, Fire and Theft, which had an obvious attraction in that, if you could "arrange" for your old wrecked or moribund "banger" to be "pinched" and later found burnt-out, you might get market value (little enough, but enough to buy you another one a bit better) from the insurers. Most penniless RAF people went for that.

If you could spare quite a bit more, and your car was more valuable (which counted most of us out), you bought Comprehensive. In those days, IIRC, this cost about twice as much as TPF&T, but if you wrapped your car round a telegraph pole, you'd get market value.

By the early '60s (when I think the Gaydon incident occurred), many of the victims were on Comprehensive, so the RAF offer of "New for Old" was too good to miss; they took the money and kept their mouths shut. (As this was the object of the exercise, maybe the RAF paid out to the TPF&Ts too). There must be many still alive who know far more about it than I (who've only read the story in "Air Clues").

(Curiously, I cannot trace the story on Google now, but it (and the photos) was certainly on Air Clues at the time. Could they somehow have kept it out of the papers (cf the "Lyneham Lightning") ?

Danny.

Wander00

22nd Feb 2015, 09:00

Nowadays most motor policies exclude "airside" cover, whether it is Heathrow or the local flying/gliding club. Don't know about back then

binbrook

22nd Feb 2015, 11:10

Did the Vulcan not go through the ATC car park at Scampton, not Gaydon? I knew a pilot who was visiting the VCR when it happened, and claimed to have led the stampede as realisation dawned. 1960's Incident Logs (1960-1969) - BCAR.org.uk (http://www.bcar.org.uk/1960s-incident-logs) gives the date as 25 May 65. It may have happened twice of course . . . .

paulm71

22nd Feb 2015, 22:25

my grandad was in 78 sqn during wwII as a rear gunner in halifax's in breighton yorkshire and then went to 99 sqn in liberators in india and coco islands he is still alive, and love the storys he tells of the bomb runs over germany berlin and sumatra, he completed he's ops in 78 sqn and re volunteered for a second time going into 99 sqn oversees, he was in the last bomb run over japan before they droped the atom, he turned down the clasp as he said the men that were lost and him was not recognised then so why now, he still thinks of all those that were lost and for what, he said he can never forget what happened and all the friends he lost, but said he did it for country and king along with most at that time. i have upmost respect for all those in that time and always will, and overs in modern day conflict.

Danny42C

22nd Feb 2015, 22:50

binbrook,

Thanks ! My recollection of the "Air Clues" story placed it at Gaydon - but all memories are fallible, it is half a century ago, and I accept that the official account is correct (after all, two Car Parks episodes would be too much of a coincidence !)

D.

ancientaviator62

23rd Feb 2015, 07:00

paulm71,
when was your grandad on 78 Squadron ?

VQ5X03

23rd Feb 2015, 13:25

I have been looking through my dad's WW2 hand-written RAF pilot training notes and in the 'Signals' section have found instructions on Controlled Descent Through Cloud referred to as CDJJ rather than CDTC. Can anyone throw any light on this please?

After 2 RC Padgate he started training in November 1941 at 10(S) RC Blackpool, then 6 ITW Aberystwyth (4/42-7/42), 7 EFTS Desford (7/42-8/42), 5 BFTS Clewiston (11/42-7/43), 14 EFTS Elmdon (12/43-1/44), spent time with 166 Sqn at Kirmington (2/44-5/44), then 15 (P)AFU Babdown Farm and Long Newnton (5/44-6/44), 1 BAS Watchfield (6/44), Long Newnton again (6/44-7/44) before joining 435 Sqn RCAF (10/44-9/45 with a month at 361 MU) and later flew with ACSEA before demob at Hednesford in mid-46.

At what stage in his training would the ground instruction on subjects like Signals (including 'CDJJ') have been completed?

Ian Burgess-Barber

23rd Feb 2015, 15:53

VQ5X03

It looks like your Dad did something similar to my Dad, i.e. arrived with one course but qualified on the next course.
My Dad arrived at Clewiston with Course 11. 25/09/42, fell ill and was placed on Course 12. when he recovered.
Course 12. arrived Clewiston 12/11/42 (so that is where your Dad arrives) but Course 12. qualified 25/5/43, so, as you say that your Dad left Clewiston in July 1943 he must have qualified with Course 13. on 30/07/43.

Ian BB

VQ5X03

23rd Feb 2015, 17:35

Well spotted Ian - an ear infection grounded him for a while...

Danny42C

23rd Feb 2015, 20:56

VQ5X03,

Going through Pilot training in '41, all the signals classroom instruction your Dad would have received would have been at ITW (in his case at 6ITW, Aberystwith 4/42-7/42; in mine at 8ITW, Newquay 8/6/41-1/8/41). All it amounted to was Morse (IIRC, 6 words pm on the key and 4 on the Aldis lamp - great fun on the sands on a fine day, with one lamp on the clifftop and the other on the beach).

Bit puzzled about the "Controlled Descent through Cloud". Never heard of "CDJJ", (it was usually abbreviated to "QGH" from the old "Q" Code); and that wouldn't have been taught until much later, when he started flying - probably not till OTU.

Please tell us all you can glean from your Dad's notes (have you got his logbook ?) This is the place to tell them (so much has sadly been lost already).

Danny.

jeffb

25th Feb 2015, 06:08

When Dad was posted to the squadron, the new crews were assigned the less than new aircraft-the old warhorses as he called them. While the ground crews did an exceptional job, often in poor weather, it still didnèt alter the fact that some of the airframes were tired and patched. He said a lot of them just wouldn,t climb, often getting up to only 15,000 or at best 15,500 feet, as he put it, it put them uncomfortably close to Hallybag territory. However, the squadron logs show them as having bombed from 19,000 to 21,000 feet, I have no explanation for the difference.
This tested the pilot,s skill, and the Skipper was up to it. About 3 weeks into their ops, while taking off for Berlin, the starboard outer caught fire. They were still on the ground, but going too fast to be able to stop on the remaining runway, so they continued the take off. At about 300 feet, once cleaned up, they secured the engine and extinguished the fire. The procedure then was to go to a bomb jettison site, some 60 miles offshore out of shipping lanes.
They had climbed to about 5,000 feet, and had just crossed the shoreline, when the starboard inner broke it,s crankshaft and also caught fire; in addition due to the broken crank the engine initially would not feather. With the windmilling engine and full load the aircraft could not maintain height, and the Skipper warned the crew they may have to abandon the aircraft. Eventually the engine was brought under control but still loosing height, so Skipper told Dad to start jettisioning the bombs. The incendiaries when out first but was not enough, the cookie had to be jettisoned. Amazingly, that bomb could not be dropped safe; as Dad put it, once you dropped the thing, it WAS going to go bang. Even from close to 5,000 feet they felt the concussion from the bomb exploding. They made it back to base OK.
They wondered, being close to the shoreline if there were any sea traffic under them, but they never caught any h**l from the Royal Navy, so I guess not.

VQ5X03

25th Feb 2015, 22:18

We do still have his log book, from the first Tiger Moth flight (N6443) in 1942 at Desford to delivering an Expeditor from Salawas in India to Oberfaffen-Hoffen in Germany in 1946. The latter was signed for on an RAF Form 603 as an 'Airframe Expeditor KJ353' (unpriced) qty1, aero engines qty 2 (with serial numbers), sparking plugs qty 36, 14 cushions, 1 dinghy, 1 transmitter, 2 medical kits and 1 mooring kit.

Like many aircrew, although he maintained a life-long interest in aviation, dad didn't talk much about his RAF flying days. Some stories which spring to mind was a night solo training cross-country navigating via beacons to RAF Morerton-in-Marsh which had to be abandoned due to a serious fire on the runway at Moreton. He spottted and landed at another airfield and walked to the control tower to find out where he was...which turned out to be Honeybourne.

And the day he was holding to take off on an operation when he noticed the Dakota starting its take off run in front of him still had the control locks in...

As part of ACSEA post-war he was flying a senior officer down-route when they landed to refuel. When he got back into the aircraft the VIP asked him why he had refueled the aircraft himself. When he explained the ground crew were on strike (as part of the 'RAF Mutiny') the VIP immediately shared his packed lunch with him !

As well as his training notes and log book, I have a set of Japanese dog-tags given to him by a soldier he carried once...

Danny42C

26th Feb 2015, 00:04

psaulm71,

A belated hearty welcome to this, the Best of Threads ! It is wonderful to see the next generations taking up the story from mine, who have nearly all passed on, but in many cases must have left a legacy by way of notes and logbooks for their nearest and dearest to read and (hopefully) pass on to this "our" Forum where they will be treasured and avidly read and enjoyed for a long time to come.

But your Grandad is still alive ! Get a tape recorder and get him talking (it won't be hard after he's read a few of the stories in PPRuNe). Then you can transcribe it and put it in here (the more, the merrier !) where it belongs.

We had Liberators (159 Sqdn) close to us in W.Bengal at Salbani, but I don't know where 99 Sqdn might have been. Bit puzzled over your: "....going into 99 sqn overseas, he was in the last bomb run over Japan before they dropped the atom...". I thought the bombing campaign over Japan was entirely an American effort (although I understand the Lincoln was designed as a long range Lancaster, intended for us to lend a hand over there if the war had lasted much longer).

Small World ! RAF Breighton became a Bloodhound site after the war; they built just one OMQ for the C.O., and when the Bloodhounds packed up we lived in it ('63-'64) when I was at Linton-on-Ouse.

The "Expeditor" was powered by two 9-cyl Pratt & Whitney "Wasp Juniors", therefore 36 plugs in all. Why, of all the hundreds of components in an aero engine, Stores insisted on these being separately listed has always been a mystery to me....D.

VQ5X03,

Your: "and later flew with ACSEA before demob at Hednesford in mid-46". I was in that part of the world (late'42- early'46). May have had experiences in common with your Dad....D.

jeffb,

Your: "the cookie had to be jettisoned. Amazingly, that bomb could not be dropped safe; as Dad put it, once you dropped the thing, it WAS going to go bang". "In search of Bomber Command" (currently in Page 6 of "Military Aviation") - Page 1, Post #17, is exactly on this point. (The whole Thread is enthralling).

Your Dad's Skipper was clearly a Jinx - he should have baled-out and found another crew ASAP ! But I'm surprised that a Lancaster (?) in that state would be on an operational squadron. And a Merlin breaking a crankshaft ???

But, as Wittgenstein says: "Whereof you know nothing, thereof should you be silent". I was nearly always a single-seater, mostly single-engine man....D.

Cheers, Danny.

Warmtoast

26th Feb 2015, 11:31

psaulm71 and Danny42C

I was a member of 99 Sqn, but very much post-war, but still have various historical notes.
These show that 99 was in India from 1942 onwards at: Ambala, Pandaveswar, Dirigi, Chaklala, Jessore and Dhubalia flying Wellingtons and later Liberators.

With their Liberator VI's they left for Cocos Islands in July 1945, while there they flew anti-shipping strikes over the Dutch East Indies. They were at Cocos until 15th November 1945 when they disbanded, only to reform two days later at Lyneham as a transport squadron with Yorks.

jeffb

26th Feb 2015, 14:04

Danny:
The engine incident was the only one that caused Dad,s crew to abort an op; he never mentioned any other problems with their ac, other than that a lot of the older ac assigned to new crews just didn,t seem to want to climb. I am sure that they had many patches on them from battle damage; in addition to the flak and fighters, once they had a 500 pound bomb go right through the wingtip, dropped from an unseen ac above them. Luckily, it neither exploded, nor hit anything vital.
To give perspective of what they had to fly through, I was watching pictures on the TV with Dad when the first Gulf war began. CNN had crews all over Baghdad, and the pictures of the flak there was awe inspiring. Dad quietly said that was pretty much how it was for about 90 minutes leading up to Berlin; over Berlin itself it increased about 4 fold for about 20 minutes he estimated. The Germans used radar predicted flak to great advantage as on the lead up to the bombing run ( and the subsequent 30 seconds after the bombs were dropped in order to get the much hated bombing photo) the aircraft was obliged to fly at a constant speed, altitude and heading. No evasive maneuvers were permitted until the camera had taken the bombing photo, after which the crews could do what they felt best in the circumstances. Then there was the trip back home, also fraught with more flak and searchlights. It is a wonder how they went back out night after night; and how the ground crews were able to patch the airframes and return them to operational status, often at night and out in the open

ricardian

26th Feb 2015, 16:27

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11015805_1599836110250034_5532304920612681460_n.jpg?oh=b87d7 fc8fbe70584b94152a90938c487&oe=557A54DF&__gda__=1430972384_f9b3e48e9563f56243837bfad983f054

Danny42C

26th Feb 2015, 16:47

ricardian,

Presumably the Heyford did the trials for "Radiolocation", as we called it then ?

D.

ricardian

26th Feb 2015, 20:48

Danny42C - no idea exactly which aircraft was "detected", some references say "metal clad bomber"

mmitch

27th Feb 2015, 10:33

It was a Heyford. I have seen a painting of the event. May be at the RAF Radar museum?
Here is an article on the test.
On this day 1935: Radar given first demonstration - The Scotsman (http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/heritage/on-this-day-1935-radar-given-first-demonstration-1-3703224)
mmitch.

papajuliet

27th Feb 2015, 11:02

The book "Winning the Radar War" says - " in the January 1935 test, Watson-Watt used the BBC 13-metre Empire transmitter at Daventry. The experiment was to demonstrate that radio transmissions would bounce off a Heyford aircraft,flown from Farnborough................." " The equipment was installed in a GPO Morris truck by Wilkins. Wilkins and the GPO driver spent the night in the truck near Weedon, ready for an early start the next day........ The aircraft was detected at a range of seven miles."

Union Jack

27th Feb 2015, 11:27

Presumably the Heyford did the trials for "Radiolocation", as we called it then? - Danny

.. no idea exactly which aircraft was "detected", some references say "metal clad bomber" - Ricardian

I suspect that our august eagle-eyed "Squadron Leader" was of course demonstrating his recognition skills on sighting the silhouette on the memorial plaque cleverly tracked down by Ricardian in yesterday's "Hoots Mon".:ok:

Jack

Danny42C

27th Feb 2015, 23:50

Jack,

Yes, it may well have appeared on one of the recognition posters, but was easily identifiable as it was the last bomber biplane in RAF service, although it was never used operationally, but only as a radar development target (Wiki).

I have some fellow feeling for it, having done the same job myself for a few months in early '45. 1580 Calibration Flight used the (prematurely IMHO) retired Vengeances at Cholaveram (Madras). Apparently their slab-sided fuselages gave good radar returns for the experimental radars on the coast of the Bay of Bengal.

What the memorial stone says is absolutely true. As I wrote in an Open "pep-talk" letter to our troops on an Auxiliary Fighter Control Unit at Thornaby: "It (Radar) enabled us to use our few precious Hurricanes and Spitfires only when and where needed, and not on the comparatively inefficient Standing Patrols of WWI". (Prior to Radar, the accepted doctrine was: "The Bomber will Always get through".

A wartime ACSEA poster blew our own trumpet (from memory):,

"And while we're about it, let us never forget
That Radar was British, and so was the Jet".

Cheers, Danny.

Danny42C

28th Feb 2015, 01:31

jeffb,

Your: ".... once they had a 500 pound bomb go right through the wingtip, dropped from an unseen ac above them. Luckily, it neither exploded, nor hit anything vital".

There is a bit of newsreel footage which has been shown on air hundreds of times since the war. It shows a bomb-release film over a burning German city: clearly silhouetted against the fires is another Lancaster some distance below, but exactly underneath the aircraft that has just bombed.

With the densely packed bomber streams, it must have happened many times. If the lower aircraft were destroyed this way, no one would be any the wiser.

Danny.

PPRuNeUser0139

28th Feb 2015, 05:08

I came across this link to the No 1 British Flying Training School Museum (http://www.bftsmuseum.org/) at Terrell, Tx.
Apologies if this has been posted before.

Danny42C

28th Feb 2015, 19:03

sidevalve,

Nostalgic pictures ! That was one side of the coin. But in the "Arnold" Scheme (operated by the U.S. Army Air Corps), we didn't even have our uniforms - they had been taken off us in Canada - but only a civilian suit and our flying overalls (to maintain the fiction that we were "civilians", and so that US neutrality would not be compromised).

Danny.

jeffb

1st Mar 2015, 02:45

When Dad,s Skipper did his second dickie flight on Dec 29 43 to Berlin, the ac he was in was struck by bombs from above. The squadron log show:
Bombed at 20.15hrs from 20,000ft on center of Red-Green T-I,s. Immediately after bombing rear turret and two upper rear turret guns damaged by bombs from above, and incendiaries dropped into fuselage between rest bed bulkhead. Navigator managed to put out fire with two fire extinguishers.
Interestingly enough, this crew was short a wireless Op; it was filled in by the WOP from Dad,s crew; both pilot and WOP made their first trip together. About this time Dad was also assigned to fill in for a crew short a bomb aimer.

esa-aardvark

1st Mar 2015, 07:24

Hello, maybe not the right place, but I remember my father (I am 73) telling me
about a flight from Leuchars, dropping leaflets (where, dont'no). After that the
aircraft was landed wheels up with consequent destruction of propellers.
All was covered up by an overnight change of propellers and engine checks.
Told to me as true, and of course I do believe it. Aircraft was an Anson.
Are second hand stories valued ?

Danny42C

1st Mar 2015, 18:41

esa-aardvark,

"Are second hand stories valued ?"

Too true they are - and this is the place for them ! Let's have 'em !

There is/was a well known story about a chap with an Anson with the wheels stuck up. Realising that he was having to land it like that, he set-up for a glide approach, cut both engines (seemimgly at approach speed, the airspeed was insufficient to windmill the props, and they stopped). Then he used the starter buttons to crank the props horizontal.

He landed on grass with little or no further damage.

Danny

lasernigel

1st Mar 2015, 19:03

psaulm71

My Dad was an airframe fitter with 78 sqn when they were based in Kabrit and Heliopolis towards the end of the war. Think he went out in '44. Will put some piccies up when I get home. (In the US working at the moment).

Brian 48nav

1st Mar 2015, 20:43

Ron, if you are a 'Ppruner' please forgive me for mentioning your exhibition!

SWMBO has just returned from visiting her mother who lives near Shaftesbury and brought the local freebie paper, Blackmore Vale Magazine. It contains a report on the forthcoming exhibition by aviation artists Patricia Forrest and Ron Homes DFC.

Ron survived a tour as a Lancaster pilot on 101 Sqn in 1944 and then did a tour as a Dakota pilot in the Far East before demob at the end of WW2. His painting 'Against All odds' of his Lancaster on fire after being hit by flak and then being attacked by a Me 210 acted as a catharsis and the catalyst for him becoming an aviation artist.

Now in his 93rd year he is a quiet unassuming man whom I had the privilege to meet some 12 years ago when my wife bought one of his paintings for my birthday. They subsequently exhibited together in Shaftesbury.

If you are in the Dorset area in March why not visit his exhibition at the Shaftesbury Arts Centre - 5th - 17th, 1000-1600 except Sundays.

You can Google his website too!

Danny42C

1st Mar 2015, 22:46

JENKINS,

Same was true of the C-47 Dakota :-

http://www.1000words-a-day.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/C-472-580x348.jpg (http://www.1000words-a-day.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/C-472.jpg)

D.

Danny42C

5th Mar 2015, 17:57

JENKINS,

Missed it ! (out with iplayer). But probably the shot with a VV being taxied in a monsoon, and another (erk-powered) push-back. Got it on video already.

Now if you really want to see VVs red in tooth and claw, look up p.129 #2561 on this Thread for Chugalug's marvellous find. :ok:

Danny.

Wander00

5th Mar 2015, 19:04

Jenkins/Danny - saw that too today. What awful conditions to fly and fight in

harrym

7th Mar 2015, 15:00

Returning from a Changi trip mid-June, we found the squadron numberplate had been changed from 96 to 110; for what purpose was never explained and, having zero effect on our daily lives, the event excited little or no interest. I suppose, given demob and the associated post-war shrinkage, that the 110 number was going spare and for some obscure reason rated superior by some very senior airship; however, since 96 came first in numerical order and presumably pre-dated the other, retention of the 96 title would have seemed more logical – but then, as we all know, use of logic in Service admin was/is never guaranteed!

From July onwards emphasis (for my crew, anyway) switched away from China & Japan towards flights to Rangoon/Calcutta or Changi, on which we carried an increasing number of civilian passengers plus an additional crew member styled (according to my log book) as a 'flight clerk'. To the best of my memory these individuals, forerunners of the latter day Air Quartermaster/Loadmaster, were usually but not necessarily spare non-pilot aircrew, pitched into the job with little or no formal training; nevertheless from a pilot's viewpoint they were a good thing in that he was thus relieved of some of the paperwork, also for obvious reasons of flight safety their presence had to be a good thing.

However there was little they could offer our passengers in the way of comforts; no proper seats, only those dreadful bucket-type benches (Mk III Dak) or equally awful semi-hammocks (Mk IV) down each side of the cabin, and although ration boxes were provided the quality was (apart from the HK ones) fairly dismal while as for drinks, stewed tea from a Thermos flask was usually the only alternative to tepid squash. Further discomfort was usually afforded due to those rubber bungs plugging the apertures in each side window sometimes being missing, thus allowing admission of noise and cold air. (I believe these holes were provided so that, if an aircraft were subject to attack, any troops aboard could fire at the enemy with their rifles; whether or not this is true I don't know, and anyway the whole idea sounds potentially extremely dangerous!).

The Calcutta schedule called for a long first day, via Saigon for a Bangkok night stop after 9 ½ hours total, and then on to Calcutta via a Rangoon flag stop. That was the intention anyway, but my log book shows that after leaving HK on the 9th we did not return until the 22nd due to delays of four days each at Akyab outbound and Saigon inbound. Akyab was not a normally scheduled call, our presence there being due to a spell of particularly atrocious weather hanging around the Arakan coast; in fact, following a night stop we made another attempt to reach Calcutta, but ended up back at Akyab for a further three days – during which time 16 inches of rain were recorded in one 24 hour period. Whether or not, by present day standards, we were justified in sitting things out on the deck is perhaps arguable, but in that pre – search radar age such practice was considered perfectly OK and not without reason as I discovered on our return flight down that pestilential coast.

Heading back towards Rangoon and encountering more bad weather I followed the accepted method of (where possible) flying below the clag a few hundred feet over the sea, but after a minute or two of blindingly heavy rain was alarmed to find the port engine losing power for no obvious reason, fortunately picking up again when the rain cleared. This happened repeatedly on re-entering further deluges, but thankfully the rain eventually eased and the weather gave us no further frights. Thinking about it later I recalled that on carrying out the usual pre-flight water drain checks at Akyab, it had taken some minutes for the flow from the port tanks' drain cocks to change from water to avgas – I reckon at least a gallon or two of water must have entered the tanks while the aircraft was on the ground. It was a peculiar design flaw of the Dakota that the fuel filler points, instead of hiding beneath hinged flaps in the wing's upper surface as per normal practice, were recessed directly into that surface; thus, should the cap be a poor fit or its sealing washer perished, it was only too easy for rainwater to enter. Indeed perhaps this was the reason the Dak had those tank drain cocks in the first place, as I don't recall such a check being necessary on other aircraft of that period.

Our homeward passage was further delayed at Saigon due to a vigorous typhoon expected to hit the south China coast at or close to Hong Kong, so that it was several days later before we finally made it back. We found Kai Tak had indeed been somewhat hammered; for while the permanent buildings had suffered little or no damage less substantial structures such as our squadron HQ had simply vanished, with a couple of very battered Sunderlands up on the slipway looking as if they would never fly again (they didn't). A noted landmark overlooking the harbour that also vanished about this time (not as a result of the storm, but a demolition job by the Royal Engineers), was a large and ugly monument erected by the Japanese to commemorate their 1941/42 'victory'. Some cynics had suggested it should remain in situ for evermore as a dreadful reminder, but were overruled; however, given the benefit of hindsight and the present run-down state of our forces, perhaps they had a point?

By now I was beginning to wonder about demob, for I was due to start Univ in early October and some months had elapsed since my application for a Class B release; however August came and went and with it another fifty hours or so under my belt, until on return from a Changi trip on the 1st September it finally came through. However I soon discovered that grant of release and actually getting back to UK were two very different things, and a further five weeks elapsed before I finally managed to secure a low priority air passage to Changi where more official obstructionism was encountered; for here I was told to find my own way to Tengah and present myself to the Air Booking Centre* as a supplicant for air passage to UK. This was, eventually, reluctantly granted and after a further ten days I found myself UK-bound on a York that duly delivered me to a cold and windswept Lyneham – a good two weeks or so after the academic term had started so no disembarkation/terminal leave period for yours truly, just some catching-up instead!

* Why the Air Booking Centre was at the west end of Singapore island, with the Changi air transport base at its eastern extremity, must remain a mystery – refer to my earlier observation re logic and the RAF's impenetrable ways!

Danny (& Chugalug) - That VV footage via page 129 is a real gem. I have always admired those who flew over SE Asia's hostile terrain (not to mention large areas of sea as well) on only one engine - sooner you than me!

Danny42C

8th Mar 2015, 18:26

harrym,

So now we're going to lose you to the Groves of Academe (but I do hope "Finale" doesn't mean exactly what it says, but if it does, then so be it; and I trust I speak for all of us on this noble Thread (and beyond), who've followed you along that rough and winding road which all of us who Gained their RAF Pilots' Brevet in WWII had to tread, in thanking you for your rivetting stories, and wishing you good fortune in the days which were to come.

But you will look in from time to time, won't you ? (all benefit from the Wisdom of the Ancients, and there aren't many of us left, you know).

Cheers, Danny.

jeffb

9th Mar 2015, 03:14

The Night Raid Report for the Nuermenberg raid paints a stark picture. It lists the loses at 94, or 11.8%. It also notes, that, IN ADDITION, a further 11 aircraft were considered write offs- 7 from landing or taxying accidents, 3 from combat, and 1 from British incendiaries. This makes 105 aircraft destroyed on this one raid. Two aircraft were observed to collide over the target and go down in flames; another 2 collided over Britian. I also believe that a Halifax and Lancaster shot each other down shortly after leaving the target in a tragic case of mistaken identity. ( Dad had mentioned at some point earlier that air to air combats between bombers did happen from time to time. It was tragic, but if the gunner thought the other aircraft was acting in a way perceived as hostile, it was a case of shoot first, rather than risk being shot at)
The report goes on the list 71 aircraft as damaged; 17 by flak, 34 by fighter, and 20 by non-enemy action.

harrym

9th Mar 2015, 18:09

Thank you Danny for your kind remarks, and no the word finale refers only to writings re my involvement with WW2 and its aftermath; for following two years of academe and the award of an indifferent degree I found the pull of aviation to be irresistible, so that it occupied the rest of my working life.

However there is no autobiography as such, nor will there be as 99%+ of transport flying tends (thankfully) to the boring and uneventful; however there were inevitably some interesting occasions or periods, and it is possible some scribblings from the odd one of these might be posted up should it link with any future thread. Meantime two of my later experiences are already in the public domain, and may be found on Jelle Hiemenga’s excellent site A Little VC10derness (http://www.vc10.net/) - look in ‘Everything RAF’ in the VC10 Memories section for ‘Excitement over Brize Norton’ and ‘Fun & Games with Harold’.

You can rest assured I will continue to follow this thread closely!

Danny42C

9th Mar 2015, 23:19

harrym,

First, thank you for the reassurance that you're not leaving us just yet, and for the links you gave me (a treat in store there!) Avation occupied the rest of your working life, you say? Then we'll all settle down in keen anticipation of many more Posts to come. Now, referring to your #6813:

It would seem that we both served under the badge of the Tiger of Hyderabad, but at different times. Did they still cart round with them that bit off a WWI fuselage on which it was first painted? (We still had it when I left in December '43 - our troops called it "The Constipated Tiger", on account of its melancholy appearance).

I well remember those "bucket" paratroop seats: a much better scheme was to settle down comfortably on the mailbag pile at the back. But I can't recall any rubber bungs sealing firing holes behind the windows (perhaps it was a later modification?) It sounds the same idea as the arrow slits in the walls of medieval castles ("arrow loops" ["loups?] or "balistravia" [Wiki]).

But how would you use them? I can't seem them as being very effective against attacking aircraft in the air. Stationary on the airstrip, I would have thought it better to get the troops out and deploy on the ground, for the aircraft skin is not as good as a castle wall !

16 inches of rain in 24 hours sounds about normal for a place like Akyab in the first days of the '46 SW Monsoon. We logged 13 inches in 12 hours in '45 on the Malabar coast, although it would have arrived a week or so earlier than yours as we were so much further West. "The rains come down and the snakes come up", the Old India Hands told us. "Monsoon Cape and gumboots" was the order of the day.

We were told that the reason for the morning preflight draining of the tanks was due to their remaining empty or part-empty overnight: the 100% humid air which filled the empty spaces would cool during the night and the moisture precipitate. The obvious answer was to fill tanks ASAP after landing, we always did this with our VVs and never had this problem. But rain getting in through through the filler caps ! You would think that this would have cropped up and been fixed prewar with the civil DC-3s in the US.

You're quite right about single engined pilots and open water not mixing very well ! Although all the Wright Cyclones were normally very reliable, there's no sense in "sticking your neck out" when you don't have to. When 110 moved forward from training at Madhaiganj (W.Bengal) across to Chittagong for ops in '43, we didn't fly direct across the Bay of Bengal, although it was well within range, but dog-legged overland, although that was much longer and needed a fuel stop at Jessore.

And, two years later, when I was calibrating radar off the coast near Madras, we were not at all happy, 50 miles offshore with one donk over the shark-infested Indian Ocean !

Cheers again, Danny.

Danny42C

9th Mar 2015, 23:36

jeffb,

"Blue on Blue !" There has never been a war in which this has not happened. As you say: "Shoot first and ask questions afterwards" was ever the key to survival. There was a prime RAF example very early in the war, look up: "The Battle of Barking Creek".

The Nuremberg raid must have been among the most costly of Harris's three year campaign. Yet "you can't make omelettes without breaking eggs"; there is no cost-free war; it was what we signed up for in the first place, after all.

Danny.

Fareastdriver

10th Mar 2015, 10:33

Surprisingly, of all the losses that the US Navy had over the Pacific with single engined aircraft, pure engine failure was so rare as to be discounted.

Danny42C

10th Mar 2015, 19:09

Fareastdriver,

Nearly all the s/e aircraft that the USN would have flown over the Pacific would have been powered by Wright Cyclone or Pratt & Whitney Wasp radial engines. Both had a long peacetime lineage in civil operation, and were "downrated" engines from our point of view, sacrificing raw power for the sake of reliability.

For example: the Wright Double Cyclones in the VV, with a swept volume of 42 litres, were rated at 1600 shp at 2400 rpm and 40 inches Hg absolute of manifold pressure. Our Merlin 266s in the Mark XVI Spit had only 27 litres, but produced the same power with +12lb boost (about 60 in) at 3000 rpm, and Wiki tells me a "special" development Merlin put out 2600 shp at 103 in on 150 octane fuel with water injection (but no record of how long the heads stayed on the engine !).

Having said that, although the Merlin was stressed far in excess of the American radials, it had a peerless record of reliability. I had no experience with wartime British radials, so cannot compare.

Danny.

Fareastdriver

10th Mar 2015, 19:16

My father said you could never get lost in a Halifax (Bristol Hercules). You just followed your oil slick back home.

I couldn't get lost off shore for a similar reason; dog ends.

Danny42C

11th Mar 2015, 00:40

Just a Quickie,

"BBMF Visit question" is well worth a look (resurrected from '09).

D.

Warmtoast

11th Mar 2015, 16:16

Fareastdriver

My father said you could never get lost in a Halifax (Bristol Hercules). You just followed your oil slick back home...and fourteen years later in 1958 this RNZAF Bristol Freighter, also fitted with Bristol Hercules engines, here seen at Gan, probably did the same when returning to Sri Lanka!

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/GAN/NZ5906.jpg

harrym

11th Mar 2015, 18:16

Danny - I presume the ‘Tiger of Hyderabad’ was incorporated into the 110 Sqdn crest, though I have no memory of what it looked like – never saw one, or 96 Sqdn’s either. The only badge/crest I recall carried on my Sqdn aircraft was 194’s, and that on only a few; it was in any case unofficial, having incurred grave displeasure from the College of Heralds who maintained there was no such thing as a flying elephant!

Re passenger ‘seating’, having once travelled (unwillingly) as pax on a C130 I was appalled to discover that the awful hammock-style ‘seating’ along the cabin sides (a la ye olde Dakota) had survived into the late 20thC! Does the US military have some strange theory that by carrying troops in extreme discomfort, they are thereby more likely to be infused with battle ardour?

Your sentiments re single-donk flight over water are shared here! One day, doing a bit of fun flying in a Harvard, I was smooth-talked by the local AAF into acting as their radar target and was not at all pleased to find myself about 30 miles east of Changi, coast barely visible in the distance.

What you write concerning condensation in near-empty tanks is very believable but still does not explain why other contemporary avgas-fuelled aircraft (to my limited knowledge anyway) did not apparently suffer from the same problem, even though the larger ones were seldom filled to full tanks but only to the level required for the next task.

Fareastdriver – If a Halifax could be followed by its oil slick, when following a Beverley there was no need to scan ahead and below – just follow the smoke trail! Seriously, the sleeve-valved engine’s thirst for oil made one wonder if this more than offset any claimed economy in fuel consumption as against the poppet-valved rival?

Union Jack

11th Mar 2015, 18:25

.....it was in any case unofficial, having incurred grave displeasure from the College of Heralds who maintained there was no such thing as a flying elephant! - Harrym

Unconvincing, considering "Dumbo" apparently came out (as a film:=) in 1941, vide www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKaeHL1ZXbQ

Jack

harrym

11th Mar 2015, 18:37

Yes, but not convincing enough I fear!

harrym

Fareastdriver

11th Mar 2015, 20:36

‘Tiger of Hyderabad’

I have a shield with the badge on but this is a better picture.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/110%20Squadron%20Badge_zpsfbe96m9k.gif (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fareastdriver/media/110%20Squadron%20Badge_zpsfbe96m9k.gif.html)

"NEC TIMEO NEC SPERNO" I Neither Fear nor Despise

No time for a w@@k, for short

Danny42C

11th Mar 2015, 22:56

Fareastdriver,

If we're in the business of recalling vernacular renderings of Latin Squadron mottoes, here's another (and there are probably more to come).:

No 608 (North Riding) Squadron
http://www.rafweb.org/Sqn_Badges/608Sqn.jpg Motto: Omnibus ungulis (With all talons)

(Loosely rendered as "All Balls")

Danny.

ricardian

11th Mar 2015, 23:44

Have just noticed this item on BBC news Northern Ireland (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-26818893), it features 502 (Ulster) Squadron based at RAF Aldergrove in County Antrim.
(Have just noticed the date of the report is 1 Apr 2014)

ancientaviator62

12th Mar 2015, 09:27

harrym,
the para seats in the Hercules (aircraft that is !) were standard issue on all USAF tac transport a/c up to the Hercules and perhaps beyond. There were certainly an inducement for the paras to leave the a/c as soon as they could.

ICM

12th Mar 2015, 11:13

AA62, Harry: Similar para seating was certainly used in the USAF's C-141A. However, I don't recall there being the additional net that provided some forward restraint for a sideways facing trooper that we had in the Argosy. Perhaps all too long ago.

ancientaviator62

12th Mar 2015, 12:37

ICM,
no net a la Argosy just a lap strap. In a crash the seats would very quickly emulate dominoes to the detriment of the health of the occupants.
One of my many complaints when I was a member of the HEART (Hercules Airworthiness Team )

Danny42C

12th Mar 2015, 15:41

ricardian,

Fascinating ! Took me right back (it wasn't all that different in '41).

Notes for the youngsters:,

No battledress yet, just your SD (so you had to polish your buttons every day !)

Everybody wearing Caps Field Service, aka "Fore 'n Afts" or (whisper it) C##t Caps). Caps SD (Flat 'Ats) kept for parade only). Cap FS much easier to scrunch up and stuff anywhere; our Spitfire/Hurricane armourers used to use them to pull back the Browning cocking knobs after loading the wing guns - this did the Caps FS no good at all, you could always pick out an armourer by the "overhang".

Officers wear little brass "A"s or "VR"s on their lapels; the airmen on a tag under the shoulder "Sh##eHawks" (to distinguish them from the Regulars). Later in the war, when everybody was enlisted or commissioned in the VR, we had to take them down, but the "A"s (Auxiliaries) kept theirs. Caused a bit of ill feeling at the time.

Look at the officers' jackets: cut off the bottom front button, shrug the buckle down a bit, you've got the current pattern at no expense.

All the airmen's jackets had a little inner pocket right at the bottom of the RH (LH?) front corner: this held your First Field Dressing pack (officers, presumably, were assumed not to bleed). This was the cause of the immemorial query (when at a dance): "Do you really love me, or is it just your First Field Dressing?".

Better stop now. Danny.

teeteringhead

12th Mar 2015, 16:39

If we're in the business of recalling vernacular renderings of Latin Squadron mottoes, here's another (and there are probably more to come).:

Indeed.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/da/78_Squadron_RAF.jpg/150px-78_Squadron_RAF.jpg

78's "Nemo non Paratus" has been rendered as:

"Never without a parachute"

[it's actually "Nobody unprepared" of course]

ricardian

12th Mar 2015, 18:47

Danny42C - glad you enjoyed the WW2 film clip. From 1970 until demob in 1973 I was actually a regular RAF Cpl instructor, teaching Wireless Operators, Teleprinter Operators & Telegraphists at 3 MHU, RAuxAF which was based at Mountbatten. When my posting to 3 MHU came through my then boss (at 604 FAC, 24 Brigade) thought it was a wind-up because the RAuxAF had been disbanded in the 1950s.

Danny42C

12th Mar 2015, 20:46

harrym,

This is more like the old badge. It was on a round frame and, IIRC, the tiger was facing the other way. It was in a circle on a piece of wormeaten plywood about 24x18 in chopped out of an old DH9. I suppose the white ants had got it before your Sqn was renumbered 110.

The VV YouTube put in by Chugalug on p.129, shows it (I think) on the nose of the VV pulling out (early in the film, just before the wing passes over the camera). How it came to be on an OTU aircraft, I can't imagine. We didn't paint it on the Sqn VVs, just the usual artforms.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSCQ3PTQbo1MseftRxERss2Lww1k-HhZe-DqhuCxEDXEeVhLzmKua0Owfw (http://www.google.co.uk/url?url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/wildlife/4957529/Ancestors-of-big-game-hunters-asked-to-help-save-the-Bengal-tiger.html&rct=j&frm=1&q=&esrc=s&sa=U&ei=QuQBVaesGc3-aISPgrAP&ved=0CC4Q9QEwAQ&usg=AFQjCNE82IFo4nr7pMQmZtWbl4nhyVrweg)

Danny.

Heathrow Harry

13th Mar 2015, 15:46

always a mixture of pride & depression to walk down the upstairs corridor at the RAF Club with every squadron badge on the walls...................

Danny42C

15th Mar 2015, 04:34

I've been trying to track down a copy of the Badge I designed for 3608 FCU in '53 (story on p.192 #3827). The College of Arms came up with a tiny b/w copy: my daughter enlarged this to a suitable size for a Post. I copied and pasted it (without difficulty) on to a PPRuNe-pad, added some text, and clicked on "Submit Reply".

Text went over as a Post, but no picture, only an empty box with a red x in the top left hand corner (I've seen this before on other Posts). What does this mean, and can anything be done about it ? :confused:

Danny.

Danny42C

15th Mar 2015, 21:30

To Whom it may Concern,

If you Google "Vultee Vengeance" now, a whole lot of new material has come in; it is almost as if the old thing is developing a cult status (whoever would have guessed it !), 70 years since it last flew. Even eBay has a lot of stuff for sale (Peter C. Smith's "Vengeance" is the nearest thing to a Bible on the VV).

Anyone who's followed the tale of my experiences on them in WWII will find it worth a look at a forgotten warbird from a forgotten war long ago and far away. :ok:

Danny.

jeffb

17th Mar 2015, 03:09

I have just come into more info regarding my Dad,s enlistment into the RCAF. He enlisted in January 1942, and was sent to No 1 Manning depot, in Toronto Ontario. The RCAF had taken over the Canadian Nation Exhibition grounds on the Toronto waterfront. It was an agricultural and livestock exhibition grounds taken over for the duration. The livestock was evicted, and the grounds quickly converted for billeting the trainees. In honour of the previous inhabitants, it quickly was nicknamed The Horse Palace. For 2 months they did basic training, and he was selected for pilot training, who were given a small white flash to wear on the front of their caps. They thought this would impress the fair maidens of the land, but it backfired when someone ( presumably some nefarious Army type) spread the rumour that the white flash indicated the wearer was infected with VD! Needless to say, the flashes were reluctantly, but quickly, removed.
Things were just ramping up, but there were problems; they were not ready to accept the next batch of pilot trainees, but another intake for the Horse Palace was coming. The solution was 6 weeks of guard duty to a newly constructed station housing RCAF cooks. There were no billets, so they had to stay in the Grand Hotel in Exeter. Dad did make the observation that security seemed to be inversely proportion to the distance from the action. This station was surrounded by barbed wire, only one gate in and out. Kirmington, on the other hand, could be accessed at will by foot, bike or even cow traffic. Then it was on to No 5 Initial Training School in Belleville, for 8 weeks. It was at the School for the Blind, taken over again by the RCAF for the duration. From there he went to Elementary Flying Training School in Goderich, Ontario. There he washed out after writing off a Tiger Moth following an engine failure while solo. From there he was sent to Trenton, Ontario for remustering, and was selected as a bombardier.
I have already outlined his activities from there, with one exception: he arrived in Liverpool, then sent to Bournemouth. While waiting to be posted, again things were a bit slow catching up, so he was sent to the South Staffordshire Regiment, a commando outfit, for 10 days, before being posted to #81 OTU.

Danny42C

17th Mar 2015, 21:35

jeffb, your father's: "...It was an agricultural and livestock exhibition grounds taken over for the duration. The livestock was evicted...."

Not in late July '41, it hadn't been. I can remember the pong even now ! Luckily we went down to the Fort York Armoury for drills and lectures, it was cool and refreshing down there by the Lake Toronto.

"...No 5 Initial Training School in Belleville, for 8 weeks. It was at the School for the Blind, taken over again by the RCAF for the duration..."

This recalls the old definitions: GCA = The Blind Leading the Blind: GCA School, RAF Sleap = The Blind Leading the Blind Leading the Blind !

"... There he washed out after writing off a Tiger Moth following an engine failure while solo..."

Bit hard, that, I would have thought. The fact that he walked away from it at all should be enough to declare it a success !

Keep it coming, Jeff, this is exactly the stuff we want on this Thread, it stirs old memories,

Goodnight, Danny.

Petet

20th Mar 2015, 13:22

A bit of a diversion from the current discussions on this thread (and apologies if this subject has already been discussed) but can any of the veterans recall (or does anyone else have the detail of) the eye tests that were conducted at the Aviation Candidates Selection Board medicals during WWII?

I am trying to put together a complete listing of the various categories of test (colour blindness, night visual capacity, Turret etc) along with how the test was carried out [and marked if possible].

Your usual helpful contributions would be much appreciated.

Regards

Pete

Danny42C

20th Mar 2015, 18:21

petet,

The only things I distinctly remember were the Isihara plates for colour blindness, and the usual test cards. No doubt it's far more sophisticated today.

My ear chap just walked over to the far corner of the room and whispered "Can you hear this ?"

The real killer was "Blowing up the Mercury" (but I suppose you know all about that already).

Danny.

Pom Pax

20th Mar 2015, 20:26

A friend was diagnosed as colour blind by his school. His mother who was rather senior in the nursing profession could not believe her son was anything less than perfect, so she arranges a retest with a top Harley Street specialist.
At the test after John has read a few cards his mother interrupts and tells him to stop playing the fool and give the correct answers. To which the specialist replies "Madame your son is answering truthfully, he is seeing exactly same answers as I am. The problem is you who is not colour blind whilst he and I are."

Petet

20th Mar 2015, 22:47

Thanks for the feedback on this subject. I will add the information to my listing.

I am intrigued by one of the Air Gunner tests which is described as "Turret" (which I am guessing meant that the eye test was repeated using a perspex screen .... but that is just a guess).

I am also keen to understand how the conditions were set for the Night Vision tests.

A minor subject in the great scheme of things but my enquiring mind is getting the better of me on this one.

Regards (and thanks again)

Pete

Danny42C

20th Mar 2015, 23:56

Petet,

Stab in the dark: could the AGs "Turret Test" have had anything to do with "tunnel vision"?

Can't see how Perspex would be relevant (provided all the oil and bugs had been polished off).

Danny.

pzu

21st Mar 2015, 01:58

My Dad managed to pass the vision test/s and commenced flight training, however he then failed in training *was assessed as lack of Depth perception and poor night vision!!!

He was then remustered as an Air Gunner and passed

I've often wondered on the logic of the above decisions - in theory a pilot with poor night vision could hold on till daylight, whereas an Air Gunner (on Night Bombers) has no choice!!!!

In my own case, as a youngster I developed a 'squint' which was operated on - as Dad was RAF then post war a civilian ATCO my dream was to FLY, but with above history there was obviously some doubt

However our Family Optician was an RAF trained guy who assured us that I should pass so in 1965 I presented myself at Biggin Hill and fully expected to sail through the Medical - sadly the RAF optician had other ideas

I was selected for either a SSC in the Regt or to continue schooling and go for Engineering

Rejected the Regt and returned home to go off the rails!!!!

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

Petet

21st Mar 2015, 09:40

Thanks again for the feedback.

PZU: At the time, the minimum "Night Visual Capacity" for a pilot was 13, whilst an Air Gunner was 8, which may help explain your father's experience.

Danny: The test results are handwritten on the front of some service records so you may be correct as Turret and Tunnel look very similar when written.

It was the "turret" notation that prompted me to try to find a list of the eye tests carried out.

Regards

Pete

Danny42C

21st Mar 2015, 17:12

pzu,

Your: ".....in theory a pilot with poor night vision could hold on till daylight, whereas an Air Gunner (on Night Bombers) has no choice!!!!....."

One of the more desperate ideas which (I believe) was tried during the war was to train pilots ab initio to fly only by night, on the logical ground that that was what they'd always be doing operationally, anyway.

I suppose they set up a "pilot" Trial, but the scheme was dropped ! :ok:

Danny.

Taphappy

21st Mar 2015, 18:34

Petet;
Like Danny I can remember the colour vision tests using the books he has mentioned but I also have a vague recollection of sitting in a chair with a restraint on my collar to prevent me leaning forward to view and identify illuminated. images on a rotating screen.This in a darkened room.
Remember that this took place in 1943 so my memory may not be all that accurate.

Ormeside28

21st Mar 2015, 19:30

Yes Taphappy, first day at Lords in Nov 1942 sitting in a darkened room with little chain on collar and looking at silhouettes on a kind of tower. Result put in log book, so that must have been issued on that day. Managed 31 out of 32. Very pretty WAAF M.O. (They were all pretty then though, weren't they?) said, "night fighters for you!" A long time ago!,

Petet

21st Mar 2015, 20:51

Thanks again for the feedback.

Perhaps the answer to my question can be found in the log book (I am sure I remember seeing a listing somewhere, so maybe that is where I saw it).

If anyone has theirs to hand ......... !

UPDATE: I have looked at a couple of log books and they are both stamped "Night Vision Test" with results /32 shown; one has 9/32, the other 29/32, so Ormeside28 is the best so far!. Unfortunately, they don't show what other eye tests were carried out so I am back to the drawing board on that aspect of my research.

I have established that the night vision test consisted of two tests, one for light sensitivity and one for form perception (which is the one where letters and familiar forms such as stylised ships and aircraft silhouettes were displayed at various luminance levels). The article concludes "the score was simply the number of correct recognitions out of a possible 32".

The article also mentions the rotating hexagonal box which enabled 6 recruits to be tested at the same time (as noted by our veterans)

Regards

Pete

jeffb

23rd Mar 2015, 11:43

Danny:
Interesting that you had been to the CNE is Toronto in July 1941 and it as yet hadn,t taken on the role of No 1 Manning Depot at that time, so Dad,s arrival in January 1942 would have made him one of the earlier inductees to the Horse Palace. One thing that stood out in his memory ( aside from the lingering reminders of the previous tenants) was the sleeping arrangments-they were all in a large room together. I can,t recall where, if it were online, or in a book I read, but I remember a picture taken showing maybe 30 or 40 beds (perhaps even more) lined up in 3 or 4 rows, with about 4 or 5 feet of space around the sides and headboard and footboard. After lights out some joker would yell "Anyone from (insert town or province here) is a sissy!, and someone else would rise to the bait. The beds would be cleared and scores settled-at least till some other insomniac would repeat the process. After a week or so they either learned to get along as a team, or were simply too tired at the end of the day.
As far as being washed out of Pilot,s training, it may seem harsh, but it was because Dad did not follow his training by changing his selection of fields part way down. He wound up in a position where he could not reach the newly picked field, or once he realized that, get back to his originally selected field

Danny42C

24th Mar 2015, 03:56

jeffb,

I can't remember how we were accommodated at the Canadian National Exhibition in '41, but Wiki says it is held (now) from mid-August till Labour Day (September). If that were the case then, that would account for the animals being there at the same time as I was (my log shows "RCAF Toronto 16-30.8.41.").

By January '42, the exhibition grounds would have been empty, so I suppose the "large rooms" your Dad speaks of had plenty of space to provide "dormitories" for 30-40 airmen.

For "packing them in tight", you could hardly improve on the arrangements I (as a Sgt/Pilot) found on the "Stirling Castle" en route Liverpool-Bahia-Durban-Bombay (8 wks in Oct/Dec'42).

They had rows of seven tier wooden bunks in the (former) 1st Class Dining Room, set out just like supermarket aisles: one of which bunks was the only personal space you, and your "Wanted on Voyage" kit had to live in.

Luxury it was not, but I had a top bunk (about three foot clearance from the ceiling) and so (as I have previously recounted), I could step on every other face each time up or down, whereas no one stood on mine (some people have all the luck !) I suppose the Dining Room must have had fans (in peace it would have been on the Southhampton-Capetown run - and no air-conditioning then), but there were none near me. For safety, I suppose the "aisles" would have been arranged under the fans to avoid decapitations and to stir the air around a bit.

As regards forced landings, we were more fortunate on the West side of Florida. Although I never had a real one (there), we got a practice one nearly every dual trip in the Stearmans; but there were miles of level grassland in every direction, so the only hazard was fence wire.

Our instructors never pulled one on us over the Everglades, for there baling out would be the only option, and even then you'd have to take your chance with the 'gators and watersnakes (seems there are six venemous kinds of these in the US, and four of them are in south Florida). :eek:

Danny.

Union Jack

27th Mar 2015, 23:50

The current thinking on is to be found at Colour Vision | Association of Optometrists (http://www.aop.org.uk/practitioner-advice/vision-standards/colour-vision), although one can't help wondering if the list of establishments concerned is up to date.

So far as straightforward visual acuity at night is concerned, my definition of a good lookout has always been one who can see and report a light before the Officer of the Watch sees it.:ok:

Trust all well at Danny Mansions.

Jack

Danny42C

28th Mar 2015, 02:31

Union Jack,

All I remember about Marine Lights came (as a boy of 14) from an old retired RN Signaller about '36, and that was: "Green to Green, Red to Red, Perfect Safety, Go ahead" (is that right still?)

Danny Mansions and occupants jogging along nicely; thank you for asking !

Danny.

MPN11

28th Mar 2015, 10:15

All I remember about Marine Lights came (as a boy of 14) from an old retired RN Signaller about '36, and that was: "Green to Green, Red to Red, Perfect Safety, Go ahead" (is that right still?)
Yes, still valid, along with "If both lights you see ahead, starboard helm and show your Red".

Wander00

28th Mar 2015, 12:19

aah, happy sailing days. Got caught out with the Ile de Re bridge tough, on the way into La Rochelle. The Biscay Pilot said one arch was lit, red and green lights according to the normal lateral system, but it getting dark, tired, and we could see two "reds", so very confused. Turned out there was one arch lit for "inbound" and the arch to the left (as we were looking) lit for "outbound". Funny thing was the latest edition of the Pilot had been updated by friends from our Club!

Molemot

28th Mar 2015, 13:46

"If two lights you see in front....

FULL AHEAD and ram the :mad:!"

Danny42C

28th Mar 2015, 15:29

Not being too keen on this waterborne stuff (if the Good Lord had wished us to go to sea, He'd have given us scales and gills - and also look what water does to your boots !), I hasten to add two caveats:

Do not be troubled by the steady red from the caravan when at marshalling point one dark night - it's just the beacon on top of the van !

In the blackout, do not orbit a steady red Pundit on the ground, waiting for it to flash an ident - it's your port wingtip nav light !

(Both true stories, one culled from "Tee Emm", the other my own experience)

Danny.

Union Jack

28th Mar 2015, 16:15

"Green to Green, Red to Red, Perfect Safety, Go ahead" (is that right still?)

That's certainly how it should be, although sometimes the alternative prevails, namely:

"Red to Red, and Green, Perfect Madness, Go between".....:eek:

Danny Mansions and occupants jogging along nicely; thank you for asking!

Long may that so continue.:ok:

Jack

Union Jack

28th Mar 2015, 16:20

Funny thing was the latest edition of the Pilot had been updated by friends from our Club! - Wander00

Which brought a smile to the face of my elderly friend, Ben R, with whom I had lunch on Thursday.

Jack

Danny42C

28th Mar 2015, 23:05

Union Jack (et al),

Brought back another scrap of memory from my Ancient Mariner:

"Two points abaft the beam", which I suppose has some connection with the arcane incantations under discussion.

The old chap (Tom Onley, by name) gave me his Pocket Code Book for 1913 (now long gone). As a boy, I could, at a moment's notice, sketch you the Pennant for a Commodore (2nd Class) in the Chilean Navy.

Not many people can say that.

Danny.

Warmtoast

29th Mar 2015, 01:10

Hi Danny
sketch you the Pennant for a Commodore (2nd Class) in the Chilean NavyAs a result of painful memories of the RN's defeat at the Battle of Coronel in November 1914 perhaps? Although I don't think the Chilean Navy was involved apart from allowing the German battle fleet to visit Valparaíso.

As an aside one shouldn't forget the Chilean Navy possessed a very desirable battleship by the name of "Capitán Prat" - perhaps your Commodore (2nd Class) was based on that!

see here: Battle of Coronel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Coronel)

Union Jack

29th Mar 2015, 12:45

"Two points abaft the beam", which I suppose has some connection with the arcane incantations under discussion.

Indeed it does, Danny, since "two points abaft the beam", or 22.5 degrees (since there are 32 points of the compass), is the specified limit for the arc of visibility of a vessel's port or starboard navigation lights when seen from the side and, similarly for the stern light when seen from astern.

And, to perpetuate a "degree" of thread drift, here are images of the current
Chilean Navy naval rank flags (http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/cl~nrank.html) and confirmation for Warmtoast that the CAPITAN PRAT lives on in the present day Chilean Navy in the form of a former RNlN frigate, together with many other eminently named ships - and a rather thought-provoking number of ships compared with the Royal Navy, vide List of current ships of the Chilean Navy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_ships_of_the_Chilean_Navy) :(

Jack

Geriaviator

29th Mar 2015, 18:04

Danny, your 6846 (http://www.pprune.org/8910455-post6846.html) regarding ab initio training by night registered with me although I was crewbaby in a pram when it was going on!

The CFI in charge of the project was A.C.H. (Tubby) Dash, the aircraft Tiger Moth (what else?) and I think the venue was Stapleford Tawney. The experiment ended when no advantages became apparent, but Tubby was later awarded the AFC for his services to RAF training.

He joined Shorts at Rochester, then at Belfast, where he ferried Sealand amphibians to the Middle East. He told me that the story of two legs of his ferry flight using two sheets from a school atlas was true, as no maps were available. The Sealand was the most useless aircraft he had ever flown because it could just about lift fuel, or passengers ... but not both.

Tubby became CFI of the Shorts Flying Club at Newtownards, which became the Ulster Flying Club in 1961. He was CFI when I learned to fly and continued instructing until his early 70s, alongside Bill Eames who trained as bomb-aimer on Stirlings, joined ATC after the war, became SATCO at Belfast International (Aldergrove) and instructed until his 80s when the medics called a halt. They don't make 'em like that any more?

Tubby died in 1987 and another ex-pupil, the late Harvey McWhir, together with Shorts test pilot Allan Deacon, led our formation of three Tiger Moths low over his funeral cortege.

smujsmith

29th Mar 2015, 18:58

Sorry to butt in, and apologise if this has already been posted, but perhaps Danny, you might enjoy this Youtube video, which certainly gives due respect to the Indian Air Force;

https://youtu.be/B6iG4aSqeuk

Thanks all, now, back to the discussion.

Smudge :ok:

Danny42C

29th Mar 2015, 20:20

Geriaviator,

Your: "They don't make 'em like that any more ?"

More's the pity ! The Magnificent Men in their Flying Machines of that era were truly something to look back on with awe and admiration. It was a time when we had: "Wooden aeroplanes and Iron Men !"

Danny.

Danny42C

29th Mar 2015, 21:06

Smudge,

Thanks for the link ! (Never seen it before). Long after my time, but they seem to have kept their Air Force up !

Rather a catholic mix of aircraft (except that the Chinese don't get much of a look in - but then there were some minor disagreements over frontiers: spares might be problematic).

For the Good old Days, try BHARAT RAKSHAK.

Danny.

Warmtoast

29th Mar 2015, 22:31

Geriaviator

Re the Short Sealand.
I'm not familiar with its payload capabilities, but always considered the Sealand as a 'pretty' aircraft. See my photos of Indian Navy Sealands taken at China Bay in October 1957 here:
http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/452110-nominations-needed-aviation-history-magazine-article.html#post6463864
Post # 17

Brian 48nav

30th Mar 2015, 11:22

Gents, I still love this thread ( the best on Prune ), but I get really irritated when I see the phrase 'They don't make them like that any more'!! YES THEY DO!

Just take a look at the 23 DFCs thread here, think back to the Falklands War, GW1 and 2 etc. My hero, my No1 son, flew 110 operational Jaguar sorties over Iraq and Bosnia.

Should the unthinkable happen and Vlad send his armies into free Europe, the modern equivalent of 'The Few' will be there doing their utmost to defend us.

The difference today is that 'elf and safety' and political correctness stops them being exactly the same as their forebears - no booze before flying, dogs called N****r etc - oh, and I expect they don't like the music of Glenn Miller and Vera Lynn either. Should be a smilie here, but I can't make it work!

Danny42C

30th Mar 2015, 16:05

Brian 48nav,

Mea maxima Culpa !

Of course you're absolutely right: I shall go and stand in the corner with my dunce's cap on ! I've said myself on this Thread: "The Right Stuff is as Right as ever it was".

(We all go ga-ga in the end, seems my time has come). :uhoh:

In sackcloth and ashes, therefore,

Danny.

Danny42C

30th Mar 2015, 20:55

Smudge (your #6864),

I've now had the opportunity to have a detailed look at the link to the IAF you gave me; it really is an impressive piece of work. I was particularly interested in the WWII part, but looked in vain for shots of their two VV Squadrons (7 & 8), but apart from a momentary glance at what might have been a VV, there was nothing.

This surprises me, but I can only conclude that Vlad's home-grown film taken during the war (probably clandestinely), at what I am pretty sure was the VV OTU at Peshawar, must have come to light only after the preparation of this video. We are indebted to Chugalug for putting the You Tube of it on this Thread some time ago. (Google: "Vultee Vengeance", it's on there now).

I must sadly agree with their commentator who said that the Oscar was superior to the Hurricane (not that I had any direct experience myself), but the Nakajima "Oscar" was designed on the same lines as its more glamourous marine cousin, the Mitsuibishi "Zero" (ie, it could "dance like a butterfly and sting like a bee" - to borrow a phrase from Muhammed Ali), and so being lighter could fly rings round the much more heavily armed and armoured Hurricane.

But what comes across so powerfully throughout your link is the bond there was then between the RAF and the IAF, and the way that association has been gracefully remembered through nearly 70 years since Independence in '47. They took across unchanged our caps and uniforms, our ranks and badges, our language of course, our procedures and customs ("Mr Vice, the President"). Even their brevets could be mistaken for ours, except that the Crown (Lion ?) of Ashoka has replaced the royal Crown.

Of course, it has been carefully staged; they are not as stiff and bandbox-fresh as they appear here all the time ! But it does not need too great a leap of the imagination to see these young men as brothers of our own FJs today. The tragedy has been that once there was no PAF "enemy"; it was all one united air force under the Raj, and one united country, but the load of history was too much to allow that when we left.

The flying shots are magnificent (and surely NATO Intelligence must have benefited enormously from their experience with the Mig-21, 23 and 25 - I believe that it was only with the reunification of Germany that we were presented with a squadron of Mig-29s to try out !)

I can't find any corresponding broad survey of the PAF (can anybody provide a link ?)

Danny.

smujsmith

30th Mar 2015, 21:23

Danny,

I'm glad you found the link useful, and agree that perhaps "back in the day" the bond between airmen of many nationalities was one of the reasons for our combined success in the fight against Nazi domination. I'm sure someone will offer further walks down memory lane for you soon. Stay well and happy.

Smudge:ok:

Ian Burgess-Barber

31st Mar 2015, 16:16

I have recently rediscovered my Dad's "Ferry Pilots Notes" from his time with 21 Ferry Control Mauripur Karachi, (March to June 1944). The notebook cover says sternly FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY (hope it's OK to tell you about this) INDIA COMMAND EDITION - PRINTED IN INDIA - AUGUST 1943.

Handling notes for all the usual suspects, (RAF, from Anson to Wellington), (RN, from Albacore to Walrus) are to be found in this little notebook.
In there, to my surprise, are two types that I had never heard of at all - A "Wicko" (surely they mean a Waco I thought), but no, Foster Wikner Wickos were pressed into RAF service, as were some Airspeed AS5 Couriers - YLSNED. I was aware of the Miles Whitney Straight but I did not know that they served in the RAF. According to Wikki only one, yes (1) example of this type served in India so it was truly comprehensive of the INDIA COMMAND EDITION to provide Ferry Pilot Notes for this lonely specimen.

Danny, I don't know if you ever went anywhere in your VV by yourself, but as they never gave you a handbook for the bird, you might not know that the ferry notes say "Ballast: At least 200lbs. desirable in rear cockpit in lieu of passenger". YLSNED

Best Wishes
Ian BB

jeffb

31st Mar 2015, 16:55

Dad mentioned several incidents that happened during his time at Kirmington. One happened it seems to another Lancaster from a neighbouring squadron- it can under attack by a German night intruder over England, returning from an Op. I believe it was the vicinity of home base. I don,t recall that it may have caused much damage, but it certainly did cause a of pandemonium , as everyone doused their lights and left the control of ATC, scattering anywhere and everywhere. I believe that was the one and only instance in slightly over 3 months of flying there.
I also asked him if he ever remained in the nose of his Lancaster during take off or landing; he replied yes, but then said if anyone asked, he never did- it was expressly forbidden. He always was in the proper station with his back to the rear spar for all landings, and operational take off where they were at full weight.
A few times when they had no bombs or partial fuel load- ie air tests or cross countries, he did remain at the Bomb Aimers station during takeoff- said it was so exhilarating particularly when the tail came up! He loved the view.

Geriaviator

31st Mar 2015, 17:16

Sorry Brian 48nav, I'll join Danny in disgrace in the corner of the hangar :O

As we grovel together, I might recall that Tubby Dash told me of delivering a Sealand to an Egyptian potentate. This one was so luxuriously fitted out that its payload was even lower. It has been recovered to the Ulster Transport Museum, at Cultra a few miles from the Shorts factory in Belfast, and they hope to restore it to static condition.

An ex-Fleet Air Arm friend reminds me that the Percival Prince/Sea Prince of the 1950s (twin Alvis Leonides) also offered Hobson's choice of lifting fuel or passengers. Again from ancient memory, its air supply was limited and could run low on continuous circuit work. As it was steered by differential air braking, this made for interesting taxying.

Danny42C

1st Apr 2015, 19:45

Ian B-B,

All sorts of weird things turned up in India/Burma during the war; I would imagine that the Airspeed Courier was originally on the civil register pre-war, perhaps as the personal transport of some Rajah, who found it quicker and more comfortable than his usual ceremonial elephant, and later it had been commandeered by the RAF. And the Army had some Stinson Reliants to pick up casualties from small forward strips and take them back to the nearest MFH (if one happened to be handy), or offload them at some spot a casevac Dakota could get in to to take them further back still. Don't know how we came by these Stinsons.

The back cockpit ballast story was rather complicated. The OTU in Peshawar was set up after our time. We were simply given the aircraft and told to get on with it, as no one had any idea how to use them. We worked it out by trial and error (and I suppose they wrote a training manual based on our experience).

The OTU (AFAIK) trained only IAF crews, all the RAF pilots had come out in a bunch towards the end of '42, had originally joined one of the four RAF (ex-Blenheim) Squadrons, and a number of us were then, after some operational experience, posted to beef-up 8 (IAF) Sqn (I don't think any went to 7) to full Establishment to go into action.

Now the OTU suffered a number of accidents in which a solo pilot simply speared-in after a practice dive. The theory was that, without a chap behind, the CoG moved so far forward that the thing trimmed nose-heavy at 300mph in the dive, and, unexpectedly heavy on pull-out, caught the stude out, hence the "ballast in the back" rule.

I never bought this story. Level, there was no problem, I flew my "first solo" (after 20 mins "dual") alone and on several occasions later, and noticed no difference at all. A "man in the back always" order came in soon after for quite a different reason: the immersed electrical fuel pumps shorted, blew the main fuse, and you had a total-electric failure. The only way to stay in the air was to work the manual wobble pump (on the LH side of both cockpits). You had to have a chap in the back to do this, for the pilot couldn't do it on his own and work the throttle, u/c and flaps as well. (By the time the OTU started up, the fuel-pump snag had been fixed, so they could allow chaps out to practice-bomb solo).

I reckon I did 100+ practice dives when 110 were working-up in early '43, and 52 operational ones with 110 and 8 (IAF), and we always flew as a crew. I only did one last "Air Experience" dive afterwards with one of our groundcrew, but by then the two rear guns had been taken out, with ammo and tanks these weighed in at 400lb, but even without this weight it pulled out as normal. There was nothing in the CoG story.

A weird thing did happen, first to me (and later to others), but only when we had a 250lb HE under each wing. When the speed got past 250mph early in the dive, the elevator trim wheel (on the left of my seat) slowly wound itself forward (nose heavy) on its own. Luckily I spotted this out of the corner of my eye, grabbed it and wound it back a handful. But the OTU would never use anything other than 11½ lb practice bombs, so it rules that out as the cause of their trouble.

I reckon their studes were so keen on putting the bomb spot-on that they didn't watch the altimeter carefully enough (in a dive-bomber, this is not a Good Idea; we reckoned that, at pull-out point [3500ft AGL] you had 1000ft to play with, going down at 300mph that's 2.3 secs, not a lot).

(Why would the trim do this ? Only a suggestion: the 250lb bomb interfered with the airflow over the elevator trim in such a way as to move the whole control train... Don't know, really).

No Pilots Notes for us, just a sort of "helpful hints" booklet from Vultee. Only thing I remember was a suggested cure for a wheel which wouldn't come down: "slow the aircraft as far as possible, and apply rudder vigorously from side to side". As this would normally be a fair way to induce a spin, we tried it reluctantly at first, only to find that the VV wouldn't spin at all (at least I never heard of it being done) and would not stall cleanly either, but would merely "mush" into its default "brick" mode. After a month or so with our new toys, we probably wrote the Pilots Notes anyway ! :ok:

This is much too long. Goodnight,

Danny.

Danny42C

1st Apr 2015, 20:57

jeffb,

Your: "he did remain at the Bomb Aimers station during takeoff- said it was so exhilarating particularly when the tail came up! He loved the view." reminds me:

In the early '50s a USAF B-50 "SuperFortress" detachment came into Valley for a few weeks. Talking to one of their Bombardiers, I was told as follows:

It seems that although their pilots had plenty of perspex all round and could see a runway ahead well enough, a "Lootenant" Hoskins had devised a sure-fire way of Getting the Round-Out absolutely Perfect (for a change).

He put his Bombadier in position (nearest to the accident !), and watched him carefully. If the man leaned to the right or left, he would adjust his heading accordingly. When he shrank back in horror, he would haul back the yoke. Worked every time.

And, in the words of the Iron Duke two centuries ago: "Sir, if you will believe that, you will believe anything . (Seems that, strolling in Piccadilly, Wellington had been accosted by a stranger with the words: "Mr Smith, I presume ?")

Danny.

Danny42C

1st Apr 2015, 21:08

Geraviator,

Your (re Prince): "Again from ancient memory, its air supply was limited and could run low on continuous circuit work. As it was steered by differential air braking, this made for interesting taxying".

And even more interesting stopping, landing on a short runway on a calm day, I would think !

True story from Old Leeming (I was in the Tower at the time):

Percival Prince lifts off from Catterick, heading South, carrying AOC-in-C of some Command or other home for tea. Gets up to 2,000 ft or so, a pot blows off one Leonides, punches 6" hole high up in both sides of fuselage, but three-star and entourage safely seated below trajectory.
Lands safely on one at Leeming.... End of Story.

Danny.
(This Thread's hotting up nicely, just like the Old Days !)

Ian Burgess-Barber

2nd Apr 2015, 07:53

Danny
your last: "This is much too long. Goodnight"

A post from the man who has first-hand experience combined with vivid recall can never be "much too long" - it's just fascinating!

Thanks
Ian B-B

Danny42C

2nd Apr 2015, 17:19

JENKINS,

Of course ! PEMBROKE ! (Prince was the civvie version, IIRC).

It's a fair cop, Guv'ner - got me bang to rights !

Your: "but the other five sufficed to get me to maintenance base. Back on line with six the next day". Didn't the Leonides start with nine ? Or have I got it all wrong ?

Unrelated topic: the heartfelt tributes to Air Marshal Lord Garden were/are touching (although I never had the privilege of meeting him), but surely they could have got the name of the Thread right.

Danny.

Wander00

2nd Apr 2015, 19:50

Met Lord TG a few times at Reg McKendick's at Friday night suppers. TG hade been a Defence Fellow before Reg. TG a real gent, pity he was never CAS. Rumour has it that he never passed through the gate of Sleaford Tech and refused ever to do so

Danny42C

3rd Apr 2015, 19:36

Warmtoast and Union Jack, (#6861 and #6862)

Looked up "Capitán Prat" on an idle whim; surprised to read that Cordite, it seems, has a "shelf life" of some 20 years (YLSNED). This supports my suspicion that the US .300 ammo issued to us in Burma (for our four front guns only, the twin rears were British .303 Brownings), was WWI stuff which had been in store ever since.

This would account for the high proportion of No.1 stoppages we had (you were lucky to get 20 rounds away before a stop - and as there was no way of cocking the gun from the VV cockpit, a dud round meant a dead gun). At least, the AT-6A trainers had a Cocking Handle on the front panel.

However, the VV front guns were so much trouble (the mountings worked loose with the vibration of firing: you could end up with your leading edge looking like the top of a pepperpot) that we all decided to leave them alone. I think I only fired mine once (for a couple of seconds) in a dive on Akyab airfield, to discourage any flak gunners who might be directly below me. (Having, of course, made sure that the chap diving in front of me had cleared away first !)

But this made me very unpopular with the armourers (who had to take off the wing gun panels to clean the four guns - an awkward job - and I never did it again !)

I have a very faint recollection that my 1913 "Commodore, 2nd Class" had a triangular pennant, but with quite a lot (but I can't remember what) on a white background.

Having added to the store of useless and irrelevant (but interesting) information which is the hallmark of this Thread,

Cheers, Danny.

Geriaviator

4th Apr 2015, 17:59

Understandable slip, Danny, I could never understand why the Sea Prince was not a Sea Pembroke, as the Pembroke was the RAF version of the Prince, but the Fleet Air Arm always did things differently and always did them very well. Hopefully it still does.

Back into my 1970 engineer's overalls, I remember many trips in different aircraft to Scottish Aviation at Prestwick. Scottish were agents for all sorts of things including avionics (hence my trips for annual checks), Hartzell and Hamilton propellors, Lycoming and Continental engines, and in particular the Pratt and Whitney Twin Wasp as used in DC-3/Dakotas and DC-4s.

On several occasions I saw rebuilds of these magnificent radials after they had blown a cylinder or head clean through the cowling. Apparently they would continue to run until all the oil was thrown from the hole in the crankcase. Nobody could match your brake drum saga, Danny, but a Hartzell HC-C2YK VP prop is quite a squeeze in the cabin of a Cherokee :ooh:

ValMORNA

4th Apr 2015, 20:39

The reason was probably that a Sea Pembroke would have been mistaken for HMS Pembroke and draftees would have been confused.

Danny42C

4th Apr 2015, 22:18

Geriaviator,

There was a sort of "super" Twin Wasp in the form of the Double Wasp, a 2800 cu.in., 18-cyl twin row, which went into the P-47 Thunderbolt II. I had only a few hours on them, but remember the beautifully smooth engine, much quieter than the Wright Double Cyclone 2600 which was the power plant in the Vengeance.

I've often wondered if the fact that 18 is a multiple of 6 had anything to do with it. All my other radials: Continental (7), Bristol Mercury, P&W Wasp Junior and Wasp (9), and Wright Double Cyclone (14) were not, and we all know how smooth a six in a car is.

As I know to my cost, engines don't run for long without oil ! Our Pembroke chap didn't try, but shut the Leonides down, feathered the prop and went into Leeming.

Danny.

PS: I'm afraid Khormaksar seems to have changed a bit since your halcyon days
with "Abdul" in '51 !

jeffb

5th Apr 2015, 02:33

Danny:
Thank goodness Dad never had the likes of Lootentant Hoskins-it must have been terrifying for the bomb aimer!
While I am sure it must have happened on more occasions, Dad mentioned that once they were ordered to divert upon returning from an Op. He couldn,t remember the name of it, but it was a training airfield, not an operational one, so an Intelligence Officer, to do the debrief, along with an armourer, had to be brought in from a nearby squadron. The station padre was unable to sleep, and heard them arrive. He was the first to greet them, and offered them spiritual comfort if they needed , and physical comfort as well in the form of a large bottle of rum. Not sure if he expected the crew to just take a tot, but instead the crew finished it off promptly. They were, to use Dad,s words, "quite tiddly by the time the IO showed up. The debrief did not go as well as the IO hoped", much to his extreme annoyance. Before he left, the expressed some rather un-Christian like sentiments to the Padre.

ancientaviator62

5th Apr 2015, 07:33

Danny,
your 'useless and irrelevant' information about the Vengeance guns is anything but. It is what makes these a/c come alive as this information is usually missing from the formal histories. On a similar vein on the RAF Hercules tanker a broom, or at least the handle was a no go item. It was used by the loadmaster to dip the fuselage tanks as when the tanks were refurbished the sight glasses seem not to have been similary treated. Not a fact to appear in any formal history. So please keep your 'useless and irrelevant' facts coming please.

Geriaviator

6th Apr 2015, 09:52

Jenkins, your RAF duties in 'Cessna 206' intrigue me as this is a high-wing single engine six-seater also known as the Skywagon. If your memory is like mine, could it have been the Beagle 206 Basset, the 1960s seven-seat twin designed by the late British manufacturer to replace the Anson and to ferry the V-bomber crews?

I think these had Continental engines which I remember for blowing exhaust gaskets if not complete pots. I preferred the Lycoming myself whether working on it or being pulled along by it, continuous traction being much desired in such circumstances, even more so when there's only one of 'em.

Last Basset I saw was at an airfield in the Midlands in 1978. The Bassets had been sold off by the RAF and this one, still in RAF colours less roundels, had been bought by a private owner. He celebrated by taking the family to Madeira, but on their homecoming the brakes failed and Damage was Done. Beagle spares being no longer available, the Basset was put to sleep.

Danny: I had forgotten that lucky you flew the monster Thunderbolt! What an experience. I read that the Pratt and Whitney engines were generally smoother than the Wrights. It occurs to me that the multi-row radials, called the Corncobs by the Americans, would require two cranks and two master conrods; if these were spaced at 180 deg as would seem logical, the engines might be smoother. But I never saw one in bits so I don't know.

Danny42C

6th Apr 2015, 21:24

Geriaviator,

The T'bolt was slightly smaller and lighter than the VV, but light-years ahead in performance !

My brief experience on them is described on Page 157, #3124 to #3131 on this Thread. They had the two-row Wasp Double: I never had anything to do with the "corncobs", I suppose four rows was as far as they could go before the air-cooling problem defeated them.

Danny.

ValMORNA

9th Apr 2015, 20:50

Amazing story of an American WW2 Spitfire Recon pilot reunited with memories of his crash-landing.

https://dub115.mail.live.com/?tid=cmGd8H5Mfe5BGdvAAjfeM2GA2&fid=flinbox

smujsmith

10th Apr 2015, 20:27

Danny,

Just a quick question on the VV and the bombing profile you flew back then. As a Dive bomber, what sort of angle of dive was used, was there a standard ? I ask as my nearest experience of such would be the "Khe San approaches" employed by our Hercules when doing the Sarajevo airlift, which struck me as almost vertical. I assume the VV was equipped with dive brakes to maintain the speed within Vne, or did they not have that capability. I know that most of the gliders I flew had speed limiting air brakes that ensured that once deployed, the aircraft could not exceed Vne regardless of attitude. Hope you are well and can spare a few minutes to deal with my query.

Smudge :ok:

Danny42C

11th Apr 2015, 00:36

ValMORNA,

My Google won't bring your reference up (probably just me !), but looked at the You Tube on offer, confirmed what I thought: this has been on Thread but long, long ago. I had always thought that it was a Lt.Col. Baines, but as soon as I saw the man I recognised him as Col. Blyth. He was very complimentary about the Spitfire, and I can endorse his remark to the effect that "everybody should have the chance to fly a Spitfire"

He got his USAAC wings about the same time as I did (I went to an "Arnold" School), and his tale of spending a half-hour over Berlin in '44, making sure he got all his pictures, is worth a look. He got a well deserved US DFC for it.

Now will some kind soul please look at the early Spitfire (5.30 on film) and tell me what is the ringlike thing on the vertical fin ?

D.

Danny42C

11th Apr 2015, 15:53

Smudge,

The ideal VV dive was vertical from 12,000ft AGL (the steeper the dive, the more accurate the result). It was designed for this purpose: the wings fitted with a 0º angle of incidence so as to reduce the amount of nose-up trim as the aircraft accelerated in the dive. Big and powerful hydraulic air brakes, extending about 9in clear above upper and lower wing surfaces, allowed a smooth airflow over them, so there was little or no buffetting from that source. These brakes restricted Terminal Velocity to around 300mph (knots were not yet in use); we came down with 1/3 throttle open and 2100rpm, partly to ensure that the engine would instantly respond at pull-out and, I suppose, to avoid thermal shock to it.

Our only "bombsight" was a 1in yellow line painted along the mid-point on the top of the nose from engine cowling back to the base of my front panel (this was perfectly adequate). Pull-out was when the altimeter needle passed 3,500ft AGL, we reckoned that would be around 3,000ft true, allowing for lag in the altimeter.

Experience showed that if you pulled with all your strength (most people reached "grey-out" [perhaps 4-5 G]), you'd finish up level at about 1,000ft. This was your "margin for error", but as you were coming down at 400ft plus per second when you began, it left you 2.3 secs to play with - you had to be careful ! Of course, there is no future in flying level over a defended target at 1,000ft, so we eased off on the latter part of the pull-out to get and stay down at tree-top height ASAP until out of harm's way. Your gunner went down "lying on the back of his neck", so as to be able to get on his guns straight away on pull-out (at least, he didn't have to watch the ground coming up on the way down !)

The zero angle of incidence (on the A-31 - VV Mks I-III) made it a fine dive bomber but a very poor aircraft. The USAAC wanted nothing to do with it, but had Vultee turn out the A-35 for them (Mk.IV VV to us) with a 4º AoI (they rejected that, too); which, I suppose, made it a worse dive bomber but possibly a slightly better aircraft. I never even saw an A-35/Mk.IV, but they supplied a number to the RAAF (I don't think it ever dropped a bomb or fired a gun in anger), and to the RAF in UK as target tugs.

The A-35 replaced the A-31's four 0.300 wing guns and the twin 0.300s at the back (we substituted twin 0.303) with 4 or 6 0.50s in front and a single 0.50 behind.

A complicated tale, I must admit. But I don't think that your hurried "Khe-San" arrivals could have been worse than 20º (even 10º on a glide approach is horrific enough) But I know it would feel much worse !

Thanks for the kind wishes, Cheers,

Danny.

smujsmith

11th Apr 2015, 20:38

Danny,

Thanks for that, I have to suspect that with a third throttle in a vertical dive, those dive brakes must have been "speed limiting" as I experienced with gliders. I'm not sure what the approach angle into Sarajevo, or doing a "Khe San" was in the Herk, I bet AA62 probably knows, but to me, as a GE down the back, it felt quite a steep descent. Of course, as you state, the whole purpose of the VV was to deliver your cargo with absolute accuracy, and minimum threat to the delivery vehicle, as was ours in to Sarajevo. Stay well.

Smudge :ok:

A typical Khe Sanh Demo I reckon at best a 20 degree dive angle;

http://youtu.be/jw2er9gaeMc

smujsmith

13th Apr 2015, 19:08

Not sure if anyone else has seen, or posted this, but it might contain some interesting stuff for fellow posters to this most interesting of all threads;

RAF Archives - WW2 News (http://ww2news.com/tag/raf/)

Smudge:ok:

MPN11

13th Apr 2015, 19:15

Oops ... but the RAF bombing got better!

But a nice link, SmuJ :ok:

Danny42C

13th Apr 2015, 22:13

Smudge,

Thanks for a very interesting link (Che Sanh Demo). I must say that the C-130 short approach does look a bit "hairy", a real "dirty dive at the runway" in fact, even though you have to take perspective into account, and we don't know how much (if any) headwind was involved.

Having said that, there is no point in making yourself any more of a target for flak than is strictly necessary, and making life harder for the gunners is always a Good Idea. I still think your 20° is a bit OTT, but perhaps 15° is not far off. Poor Hoskins would need to Get the Round Out Just Right, though ! Have we a Hercules driver on frequency ?

The countryside of Viet Nam looks very like N.Burma did in my time.

Danny.

ancientaviator62

14th Apr 2015, 08:02

Danny'
sometimes 'Hoskins' did not quite get the round out right. Known from the USAF technique as the 'Khe San' and then the 'Sarajevo'. There is a video of an Italian AF G222 not quite getting the round out bit correct at one of the Faiford displays.
I have been in a Herc where the nose gear has kissed the runway before the mains but without damage. One of the problems as I recall was not exceeding the U/C and flap limiting speeds in the 'dive'. I do not remember the approach angle but it did seem very steep from inside. Nothing of course to compare with what you dive bomber chaps did. Huge respect, especially for the Air Gunner !

Warmtoast

14th Apr 2015, 08:53

Danny42C

Danny, came across this link from a post in the Aviation History Forum.
First shows Class 42D parading though Lakeland, Florida in 1941, here:
http://www.3bktj.co.uk/pictures/parade2.jpg (http://www.3bktj.co.uk/pictures/parade2.jpg)

The second a link to the site where there's a description of his training and WW2 activities and later, including a stint in India and Burma etc. here:
http://www.3bktj.co.uk/index.htm (http://www.3bktj.co.uk/index.htm)

Apologies if its been posted before, but I don't recollect having read it previously, so passed on FWIW.
Is Class 42D the successor to your course?

WT

pzu

14th Apr 2015, 15:10

As some regulars on this thread know, I am a a fan of Tinus le Roux who has interviewed a number of pilots and aircrew associated with the SAAF in WWII

A couple of his recent ones have involved former Beaufighter pilots with 19 Sqd SAAF

Steve Stevens DFC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hL4_z3kWa3s

Paul Kruger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buUivVLUyQo

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

Danny42C

15th Apr 2015, 22:33

Warmtoast,

(Your #6898) Thanks for pointing me to the two links you posted. In both cases it illustrates how two wartime careers can start side by side, then suddenly and arbitralily take off in widely different directions. After a long time examining the first with a magnifyng glass, I comment as follows:

EDIT: Here is Warmtoast''s pic (can't copy it any bigger no matter what I do):

http://www.3bktj.co.uk/parade2_small.jpg (http://www.3bktj.co.uk/pictures/parade2.jpg)

RAF cadets of Class 42D parade through Lakeland, Florida, USA, on Armistice Remembrance Sunday 11 November 1941

(Must have had a band in front - they're ALL IN STEP !)

The Lakeland Parade has me, frankly, baffled. The first question being: "What was that parade for, anyway ?" The obvious answer would be "to show the flag", and to cement relations with the townsfolk, most of whom had never seen a Britisher in their lives. But I've never heard of such a thing in any of the other "Arnold" schools (although there were town parades in the BFTS, but their LACs/(pretend Aviation Cadets) would spend the whole six months in one spot, so making friendy relations with the locals much easier to grow than in the "Arnold" case, where we would be moved from one State to the next every eight weeks. (Lakeland and Carlstrom were the only two "Arnold" Primary Schools in Florida, both near the W.coast, Lakeland being some 60 miles N. of us). And the fact that Lakeland has a population of 100,000, whereas Arcadia (Carlstrom Field) only 7,600 (current figures, but I don't suppose the ratio would have changed all that much in the time since) might have had something to do with. I was only a Course ahead (42C), and don't remenber going into Arcadia even once (as there was no transport, and we were 15 miles out in the prairie).

Next thing, how was it that they had RAF uniforms ? All ours had been taken off us in Toronto: we came down to Florida in just the "Civvie" suits we had been given in Blackpool (to support the pathetic attempt to pass us off as "civilians", and so put a fig-leaf over the gross breach of US neutrality - this is a month before Pearl Harbor). All the time I was on their (three) Flight Schools, I wore nothing but flying overalls: they pinned my (Air Corps) silver wings on them at the end.

The whole of one new Course (about 120) would be on that parade, (about the same strength as my 42C Course at Carlstrom) - but they would finish only some 70-80 strong. And who is leading the Parade ? There shouldn't be any RAF officers there, (we only sent out LACs and one or two NCOs on the Arnold Scheme). Perhaps a US officer (tactfully clipped out of the picture). What about the two at the head of the column ? And what on earth is that chap nearest the camera carrying ? Bagpipes ? And some of them with raincoats (?) over their L. arms (?) The whole thing bristles with questions, perhaps we have on Thread someone who was there and can answer them.

The second story starts just like mine in so many ways: entry as a u/t Pilot, ITW in UK, trained at an "Arnold" school (just five weeks behind me), wings - no Commission for either of us - back to UK, Bournemouth and then Masters, fighter OTU (Hurricanes for him, Spitfires for me). But then he gets into action in N.Africa with the Hurricane he trained on; they sent me out to India (where there [U]were no Spitfires then); I was railroaded onto a thing of which few people had heard at the time, and no one remembers now (Vultee Vengeance). He was unlucky in his quest for a Commission, I got mine for the asking (I suspect only because the Boss was in such a huff over his several Dominion Sgt-Pilots, who were getting theirs [whether they wanted or not] planted on him without so much as a "by your leave"). Luck of the draw !

Then he winds up as a Ferry Pilot on the Burma front and seems to have seen a lot of the country. I hoped that he might have ferried a few VVs, and given me his opinion, but it seems that he was only taken back to base in one as a passenger.

Cheers, Danny.

Petet

16th Apr 2015, 08:51

Whilst continuing my research on WWII aircrew training / medicals I came across an article (and a photo somewhere ... but I can't find it now!?) which said that aircrew were encouraged to visit the UV Room on a regular basis.

Can our esteemed veterans advise on whether this was standard "day to day" practice?

Regards

Pete

Danny42C

16th Apr 2015, 15:59

Pete,

This esteemed veteran had never heard of ultra-violet (which I assume we're talking about) in the RAF during WWII... UV rooms ? - new one on me !

Our cockpit "spot" lights (useless) were dull red, IIRC. (Could they have been infra-red ? - don't think the RAF had heard about that, either).

I remember that, in the MPN11 GCAs in the '60s, we had UV hand lights: if your shirt had been washed in "Daz" (?), your cuffs glowed a treat !

Always ready to oblige,

Danny.

Petet

16th Apr 2015, 16:53

Danny

Thanks for the response; very much appreciated as always.

The information I have is from an operational training unit leaflet which was given to new arrivals. It reads:

"Unless you are feeling one hundred percent fit you cannot fully benefit from the course. A very short period of UVT (Ultra Violet Treatment) every day will help a great deal. Any spare ten minutes you have, go to the Flight Sergeant i/c Discipline, Training Wing Headquarters and draw goggles. The UVT room is just opposite and the F/Sgt. will advise you as to the correct procedure"

The photograph I saw shows airmen (possibly a crew) standing in a semi-circle with goggles on ... I will have to try and track it down again.

Regards

Pete

Danny42C

16th Apr 2015, 17:45

Pete,

".......go to the Flight Sergeant i/c Discipline, Training Wing Headquarters...."

(A most unwise move in most circumstances ! - "Ah, just in time my lad - we want four people to move the NAAFI piano !")

As for the tanning salons, Now they telling us ! Perhaps I blinked and missed the leaflet. But then, I did time on the Edmunds Trainer, but now couldn't for the life of me remember what it was ! This UV business sounds more like a Bomber Command thing, on my (Spitfire) OTU we did no night flying.

"Insufficient Knowledge" !

Danny.

PS: (Not in the category of Left Handed Screwdrivers and Striped Paint, I hope !)

Petet

16th Apr 2015, 18:01

Danny

The content of the document all seems genuine and forms part of a 14 OTU summary held at TNA.

I have now found the photo, which is in a 1942 Flying Magazine [Special RAF Edition], but I am not able to attach it .... and no amount of reading the forum instructions has helped me in this quest!

By the way, I can provide some detail on the Edmunds (Edmondes) Trainer if you would like your memory jogged.

Regards

Pete

Fareastdriver

16th Apr 2015, 18:13

but I am not able to attach it

Scan it. That puts it into your computer. Your may, depending on Windows fit , have to drag it from My Scans to My Pictures.

From then on it's easy. Photobucket, or whatever you use and its there.

Fareastdriver

16th Apr 2015, 18:15

UVs and nylon bras.

Ohhhh, Nurse, pass me the pills.

Petet

16th Apr 2015, 19:31

I was trying to add the image as an attachment but it says that I am not permitted to do that and the forum does not allow for an album to be added to my profile.

I don't use photobucket (or the like) so that rules out using the html attachment option.

........ oh the joys of being technically illiterate!

Regards

Pete

Danny42C

16th Apr 2015, 20:06

Pete,

Thanks for the kind offer, but when I first put this my lapse of memory on this Thread, someone had the "gen" on the "Edmunds Trainer". Seems it was an attempt to teach deflection shooting in a Link Trainer by aiming at a model aircraft, pushed across in front of you on a sort of handcart at a distance at which the model would represent a range of 250yds.

Trouble was, the handcart bit worked, butI don't think the inventor could ever have "flown" a Link. You pressed the rudder a little, nothing happened. You pressed a bit harder - it flew round like a whirling Dervish ! (good fun, but how did we ever win the war ?) Small world: three years later I worked with a Wg. Cdr. Edmondes at Cannanore, seems that "Edmondes" had been corrupted into "Edmonds", then "Edmunds" - he was our man (but I didn't know that at the time).

Now look at Page 345 #6891 on this Thread. The gauntlet I cast down at the end has never been picked up. You are a researcher par excellence. This picture has been published many times - but never an explanation of the wire hoop.

What is it, please ?

Hopeful, Danny.

Warmtoast

16th Apr 2015, 21:02

Danny

Re. your comments about the parade at Lakeland details of which I posted in my #6898, here is some clarification about the composition of the parade, the dress rules, that it was an Armistice Day parade and the bagpiper also gets a mention.

It comes from page 251 of “The Arnold Scheme: British Pilots, the American South, and the Allies” by Gilbert Sumter Guinn.
Here: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=m6IA84_UHsQC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=Bagpipes&f=false

….travelled eastward and southward to Lakeland, from the Lakeland Railway station, they were transported by truck to the huge barracks at the flying school. There, they were assigned three men to a room. Williams had been appointed cadet sergeant at Maxwell Field and his responsibility was essentially disciplinary. Since it would normally have been cold and wet at home in Britain, it took some time for the men to become accustomed to mild weather and daily sunshine.
Their training commenced immediately, and Williams found himself attending ground school in the morning and flying in the afternoons, alternating about weekly. Of course, there was special flying kit, and issue leather jackets were worn with blue uniform trousers for ground school classes. However, since the United States entered the war in December, and U.S. Army regulations had required a changeover to winter uniforms by 1 November, members of Class SE-42-E wore RAF uniforms both on and off station after that date. The classes at Lakeland were also permitted to march to British-style drill. On 11 November, the entire RAF student body at the Lakeland school formed up into two groups for an Armistice Day Parade through downtown Lakeland. The first group of fifty-four men was led by Duncan MacKinnon of SE-42-D, a Scottish cadet playing the bagpipes, and a second echelon of thirty-five men followed. Behind them were American ex-servicemen of 1917-18.
As his dual flying training continued, Williams recalled the “great shock” when, after landing at the auxiliary field near Plant City, his civilian instructor, C. D. Oakley, stepped out of the front cockpit onto the wing of the Stearman, reached back to connect the front seat belts and then climbed down from Stearman No. 28 and sent him solo, to that time, Williams had received only four and a half hours of dual flying instruction, but he soloed successfully. Now his flying instruction really began. During weekends, if there were no demerits to walk off on the ramp during Saturday afternoon, Williams and others usually walked downtown, had a snack or glass of beer and surveyed the town and its environs.
On Sundays, most of them attended church in town. At the Methodist church, Williams and several friends found that they enjoyed the friendly atmosphere and the people. Usually, they were invited to Sunday lunch and/or dinner and were driven about the town and countryside. From his perspective, “Southern hospitality was beyond our comprehension.” During these travels, the British cadets found a genuine friendly welcome everywhere they went….WT

Danny42C

17th Apr 2015, 02:17

Warmtoast,

Thanks for the steer to Dr.Guinn's description of the Lakeland Armistice Day parade. I have relied on him for a lot of the statistics on total number of "Arnold" students and what happened to them, but had not come across this particular article.

What he says about uniforms surprises me. At Carlstrom my "special flying kit" amounted to a plain khaki overall plus cloth helmet and goggles. Leather flying jackets ? - you must be joking ! (why would you need them in warm Florida, anyway ?). So 42D at Lakeland had their RAF blues, they must have been a special case, for we certainly didn't have ours. And our USAAC officers wore lightweight summer uniforms all the time (perhaps they hadn't heard of the Army Regulations - or just ignored them).

And we had to march to US drill: (Hup-two-three-four .... To the rear March !) At Advanced School (Craig Field, Selma, Ala) we did US arms drill as well, with old Springfield rifles. Never could get the hang of "Changing shoulders on the March" (there is no magazine sticking out below as on the SMLE, so you carry the Springfield right way up on one shoulder or the other, to order). ♫ "You're in the Army Now/You're not behind a plow !" ♫

So our chap soloed after 4½ hours dual (presumably on a PT-17). Didn't he do well ! (8 hours was the norm). Perhaps he'd had some TM hours in UK before coming out.

My dates as 42C started 30.8.41., left 3.11.41. at Carlstrom (66 days), I would think all the Arnold schools would start about the same time; 35 days later 42D would have joined us around 4.10.41., 35 days after that 42E about 8.11.41. The Armistice Day parade on 11.11.41. would consist of 42D plus the newly arrived 42E.

Whaddya mean: "at weekends" and "on Sundays" ? Don't you know there's a war on ? At Carlstrom weekends had gone out of the window !

♫ Off we went, into the Wide Blue Yonder ! ♫

Cheers, Danny.

FantomZorbin

17th Apr 2015, 08:33

I remember that, in the MPN11 GCAs in the '60s, we had UV hand lights

Danny
Oooh yes! I remember it well ... the lights glowed without being plugged in as there were so many electron thingies flying around inside the cabin!!

When the AR1 radar was being installed at Finningley we were lent one of the trucks from Sleap to tide us over. The first thing that happened was Chiefy from GRSF demanding our screwdrivers so that we didn't upset his delicate settings with our 'tweaks'!!

P.S. Do you remember the trick Cat Board question "When is a GCA truck IMC"?

MPN11

17th Apr 2015, 11:07

Morning, FZ!!

1. Well, the MPN11 buttons and switches were marked up with luminous paint, when glowed brightly when the UV wand was waved over them. That's why we [at Strubby] wore dosimeter tags, changed monthly at SMC to ensure we were still capable of breeding!

2. Most GRSFs confiscated screwdrivers, I believe, but the Strubby crew were obviously trusted to keep theirs ... No such imposition in my time! Happy hours of twiddling to get the perfect settings on the radar!

3. The Cat Board had many trick questions, but that's a new one on me. I would hazard a guess that the weather minima made it unsafe to stay in the truck ... which assumes an [unmonitored] ILS was available. I await the answer from Danny ;)

FantomZorbin

17th Apr 2015, 11:50

Afternoon, MPN11!

The dosimeter tags!! Our SATCO was banned from going anywhere near the radar for a while as he had been keeping the tag in his drawer next to a luminous alarm clock!! Much hilarity!!

You are correct re: the GCA IMC question ... the answer (of which I can't remember the exact details) was printed on the inside of the front cover of the En-Route Supplement! Really sneaky that one!

On one occasion we were instructed to evacuate the truck (fortunately the wx was BLU) as there was diesel fuel lapping over the door sill of the power trailer! The reflection of the arcing in the inverter/rectifier?? off the fuel was quite impressive!

Ian Burgess-Barber

17th Apr 2015, 16:09

Danny

The Spitfire in the video is K9795 and was the 9th production Mk 1 with 19 Squadron. The ring on the tail is a "rudder horn balance guard". But what is it guarding against? Well, apparently, some of the earliest production a/c were fitted with spin recovery parachutes (don't know where they were installed) and the "guard" was there to stop the parachute lines from jamming between the rudder horn and the top of the vertical fin!

YLSNED

Ian B-B

ricardian

17th Apr 2015, 17:30

Interesting article (with photographs) about the enormous armada that would have been launched if the two A-bombs had failed in 1945 (http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=52966)

Danny42C

17th Apr 2015, 17:41

Ian B-B,

Have you any firm authority for "apparently" ? (only reason I ask is because I suggested exactly that on this Thread many moons ago, and it may be that you saw it and had forgotten.......!).

It is a plausible explanation, though. Probably we will never know for certain.

Thanks anyway, Danny.

Danny42C

17th Apr 2015, 17:57

Fantom Zorbin and MPN11,

No, Danny had not heard of it, either ! But VMC or IMC, any GCA operator or Caravan Corporal on a Pilot FTS was in peril of his life all the time regardless. I suppose we were better off as we couldn't see what was coming across the grass!

I worked MPN11s at Thorney Island, Geilenkirchen and Leeming. Never saw a Dosimeter at any of them. The only advice we were ever given was: "Don't hang about in front of the "hot" side of the truck when it's running !"

I think the original Allisons in the Power Truck were replaced by Rotary Converters to convert our 230V 50 cycle mains supply to the 120V 60 cycle that the MPN-11 liked. The Geilenkirchen solution was to power the truck from a Bachem (?) mobile diesel generator outside. As I believe these were air-cooled, they made a deafening row.

Danny.

Ian Burgess-Barber

17th Apr 2015, 18:12

Danny

Just Google - "Spitfire spin recovery parachutes" - enough evidence recorded there methinks

Respectfully

Ian B-B

Wander00

17th Apr 2015, 19:27

Ricardian - brilliant, thanks. one learns something every day, and I had never heard of that before

MPN11

17th Apr 2015, 19:55

FZ and Danny ... YAAAY, I got it right!

I was an LEO in both Area and Terminal, but never darkened the doors of the Central Air Traffic Control School or the ATC Examining Board. I understand I was deemed 'too tactical' or something like that.

Excuse me ... back to the real world of Aviation :ok:

Warmtoast

17th Apr 2015, 20:07

I was familiar with some aspects of the GCA at Biggin Hill in 1954-55 (Gilfillan AN/CPN 4 - I think). One of my mates was a ground radar fitter responsible for its upkeep and ISTR that operators and technical staff working in the caravan were given milk as a cure to any problems caused by microwave radiation in the vicinity of the GCA.
I had a collection of colour transparencies showing the GCA in action, with both inside and outside shots and with the talk-down operators working inside. Sadly they were lost in a 1970’s house move and are no longer to be found - a pity.
One of my recollections was how proud the operators were to have identified the new (in 1955) TV mast at Crystal Palace, about 15-miles to the north - it showed up clearly as a permanent echo on the search screen.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Biggin%20Hill%20Early%201950s/BigginHill-AeromodellingClub_zps4df57460-1.jpg

This is transparency shows the AN/CPN4 on Biggin's airfield not far from Biggin's CR/DF (the small building) which can also be seen. These bods are from Biggin's Aeromodellers club taking part in a competition.

Danny42C

18th Apr 2015, 00:09

Ian B-B,

You've got me "bang to rights" there, and no mistake, Guv ! Shows you're never too old to learn ! :ooh:

I should respect you. Thanks !

Danny.

Danny42C

18th Apr 2015, 00:21

Warmtoast,

So now a milk issue ! (where was I when all these goodies were being handed out ? - hiding behind the sofa, that's where !)

Of course you did the decent thing and handed it in to the Tea Swindle.

Danny.

Danny42C

18th Apr 2015, 00:33

ricardian,

George Spangler says "Few civilians had heard of this". This serviceman was out there at the time, and I never heard of it (shows how tight Security must have been then).

YLSNED,

Thanks, Danny.

FantomZorbin

18th Apr 2015, 07:09

Danny & Warmtoast

There was an 'upside' to the dosimeter and milk situation ... putting a NAAFI meat pie into the wave guide of the azimuth aerial* kept the pie lovely and warm!!

* Access was through the little hatch used to wind the polarisers in/out.

Danny42C

18th Apr 2015, 17:07

FantomZorbin,

Our waveguides in the old MPN-1 "Bendix" must've been hotter - our Radar techs made lovely toast that way !

Danny.

PS: This fascinating discussion is a wonderful example of our "CyberCrewRoom" working exactly as it should ! D.

PPS: 7,000 Posts coming up fast (Cliffnemo [RIP] builded better than he knew seven years ago). D.

Wander00

18th Apr 2015, 21:19

ISTR that the model is from the Keil Kraft stable

Danny42C

18th Apr 2015, 22:34

Better watch out for apes in trees !

smujsmith

19th Apr 2015, 21:42

The use (or abuse) of aircraft borne or ground based radar is an interesting subject. From personal experience at RAF Colerne in the early 1970's as a "singly", it was common practice for several of us to have a five minute stand in front of the CCWR scanner, being operated by an avionics tech. The purpose being to save us the cost of condoms over the weekend (in theory). Toast and reheating shepherds pie is one thing. after years of contemplating it, I came to the conclusion that all that happened was that the radar man merely wobbled the scanner, that being the case I am surprised I only have two children, that I know of :eek:

Smudge :ok:

Molemot

20th Apr 2015, 11:55

My late father who was involved with radar in WW2 told a similar story...chaps coming to the radar transmitter hoping for radiation induced temporary infertility. He said they used to get them to lay down by the mercury arc rectifiers, as they were pretty impressive when operating. Effect on birth rate in surrounding area, not known....(!)

Geriaviator

20th Apr 2015, 17:16

There was a time when all this talk of radiation would have worried me, now it makes little odds :( However I have encountered a problem when donating a WW2 cockpit clock to an aviation museum. Its luminous markings are radioactive and this deadly timepiece is therefore classed as Controlled Waste which might imperil the visiting public, who are already at risk from tripping on steps, slipping on wet floors, walking into glass doors, falling over matchsticks and such hazards.

As far as I know the clock's previous owner, the Luftwaffe, was not worried by the green glow of radioactivity as such perils had yet to be invented, and far greater dangers would soon surround them as the Allied air forces gained strength.

Danny42C

20th Apr 2015, 17:28

Geriaviator,

Most of our generation walked around with luminous-handed wrist watches all our lives, suffered no harm and procreated normally.

Now the lunatics have taken control of the asylum. :ugh:

D.

Fareastdriver

20th Apr 2015, 18:00

Plus all the cockpit dials glaring at us for so long.

mmitch

20th Apr 2015, 18:29

The Avro York at Duxford has a notice by the cockpit (which is also screened off with Perspex) warning of the radiation risk. Access can only be when a safety officer is present.....
mmitch.

MPN11

20th Apr 2015, 18:52

Well, I only had about 12-18 months of intensive irradiation in the Strubby Truck, and managed to eventually generate 2 sprogs (and a merciful bachelor mis-fire].

I could guess, in my massive ignorance on these matters, that the RAF was just playing safe?

[Oooh, Matron, the precursor of the nausea imposed these days ;)]

Xercules

20th Apr 2015, 20:29

Back in the days when politicians could be respected, there goes a story of a MP attempting to make party political points about luminous watches and asking a question of the SofS of Health. It was fairly rambling and probably not much to the point but he wanted to know what effect luminous paint on wrist watches would have on the Nation's birth rate or on the condition of any babies born.

The SofS merely replied "I cannot vouch for the honourable member but I, at least, wear my wristwatch on my wrist" and left it at that.

Danny42C

21st Apr 2015, 00:11

mmitch (et al),

What I'm hearing here beggars belief. In the case of the Duxford York, surely the passage of time would have reduced to insignificance any radiation from the luminous dials and switch tips (same applies to all our bedside clocks, wrist watches etc, as we all well know). And what would the Safety Officer actually do ? ("you've had your five minutes in the cockpit - that's your lot ! - out now ! - and be a Good Boy and drink your prophylatic glass of milk")
.
Geriaviator,

Your clock and the Politically Correct Museum are another good example !

Xercules,

A Secretary of State with common sense - now there's a thing !

That I should live so long and have to listen to this. We'll all be frightened of our own shadows soon !

Cheers to all, Danny.

Geriaviator

21st Apr 2015, 08:08

Enough of this frivolity, the Safety Police act in our own best interests. One could fly in an Air Atlantique Dakota until a couple of years ago when EC regulations decreed that all public transport aircraft with exit heights above ground level must be fitted with escape slides. AirA worked wonders but even they baulked at the design and maintenance costs involved in this mod.

I would think those who travelled to Arnhem and such places would have been very relieved to jump from their Daks, knowing that an EC descent is a safe descent.

Fareastdriver

21st Apr 2015, 08:38

Air Atlantique Dakota-------exit heights above ground level must be fitted with escape slides

All the pictures of pranged DC3s that I have seen have all had their exits at ground level.

kenparry

22nd Apr 2015, 09:18

Danny:

What I'm hearing here beggars belief. In the case of the Duxford York, surely the passage of time would have reduced to insignificance any radiation from the luminous dials and switch tips (same applies to all our bedside clocks, wrist watches etc, as we all well know).

Not yet. Radium has a half-life of 1600 years, so the 70-yo York will still have its Radium at near full strength.

harrym

22nd Apr 2015, 17:02

Sad to know this idiocy over radioactive instruments is still on-going. Some years ago I described (if not on this thread, then somewhere else in the Prune library) how on a visit to Cosford I was admitted to the York’s interior but not allowed to approach the pilots’ seats ‘on account of ‘’radiation risk from the flight instruments’’. On pointing out I had spent some hundreds of hours scrutinising said instruments at close quarters but was still in good health, I was informed that luminous paint became increasingly radioactive with age. Personally I had always thought that such emissions decayed with time rather than the reverse, so is there any good reason why old aircraft instruments should be subject to a diametrically opposite rule or is it a dodge by curators to keep the public out of their exhibits’ most interesting area?

Danny42C

22nd Apr 2015, 19:04

kenparry,

I think the problem here is the difference between phosphorescence and radioluminescence. (Wiki has a good entry on this). Presumably elf'n safety is worried about the latter, but I'd always supposed that most of the wartime instruments (like all our watches etc) would have been of the former kind.

I believe harrym may well have been right about the Museum's curator (in that way he'd keep souvenir hunters out and small (and bigger) boys from tinkering with the controls !)

Cheers, Danny.

Ripline

22nd Apr 2015, 19:41

Non-Mil, but Harwell trained in the 60's - some residual knowledge.....

In this H&S concious era it might be thought that the rules concerning these restrictions might at least be better explained by facts rather than the boogy-man stories one hears!

The radium in the luminous intrument dials and watches of old is actually quite nasty stuff. The dullness of them now might be taken to be a sign that their potency has diminished with time but this is far from the case as the glow is caused by the emitted radiation interacting with a zinc sulphide compound to produce light. It is this compound that loses its potency with time.

So what are the problems with radium? For a start it produces both alpha and either beta or gamma according to the isotope used. Alpha radiation is stopped by the glass, but the others aren't. In addition a further decay product is radon gas, which in itself is radioactive. So technically there is a direct and an indirect radiation hazard that would have been regarded as an acceptable risk for the benefit gained during the war but which has now changed to unacceptable now that the damaging effects of small doses on cell genetics has been researched in some detail.

For example, as a 40s/50s childen we happy stared at our own foot bones in the shoe shops of the day and were encouraged to do so by the staff.....

Ripline

smujsmith

22nd Apr 2015, 20:32

Ripline, interesting stuff there, but, what does your knowledge of the radium in aircraft instruments say about the men who spent 20 plus years sat within a few feet of these same instruments. I'm sure many posters on this thread would be interested in your opinion on their exposure for all of those years. And from the point of view of groundcrew, our association in handling such instruments. Please expand.

Smudge :ok:

Ripline

22nd Apr 2015, 20:56

Hi Smudge,

I'm really not qualified to provide an authoratative answer, for that you need a medical radiation specialist. Harwell training was intended to scare the crap out of us if we were intending to handle anything that was likely to register on a particle counter. TBH, I remember more about beta backscatter experiments....but the American radiation accident films shown certainly taught us respect for extreme radiation hazards.

My post was intended to give some reasons why old luminous dials might need to be treated with more caution than one might have experienced in former times. I would guess that the risk is not a large one, but as it is a non-zero risk it needs to be treated as such. We were told, for intance, that tolerance for a given radiation dose could vary significantly across the population and that its effect would also depend on the type of cellular genetic damage done.

To put this all in context, remember when sunbathing was considered a safe and desireable activity?

Ripline

smujsmith

22nd Apr 2015, 21:11

Ripline, thanks for that. Hopefully some may take comfort that their exposure to their instruments for all those years may equate to sunbathing through the seventies. Interesting though that as we "expand" our knowledge and expose the dangers of the past, we also limit our ability to take risk and accept the penalties that come with that. Though I suspect that radium doesn't feature in the modern cockpit. I'm sure that many would never trade their flying experiences, whenever it happened, for the worry of radiation from aircraft instruments, and few, would doubt their duty to report when their country needed them. Whatever your experience sir, your input has certainly opened this old ground pounders eyes to things I had never been made aware of during my service. Welcome to PPRUNES finest thread.

Smudge :ok:

Reader123

23rd Apr 2015, 15:56

I guess the increased risk today compared with earlier would arise from the breakdown of the cement or other-such gunk used to hold the radium and the luminous compound (Zinc Sulphide, as described above) together.

Thus small bits are more likely to fall off and be ingested than was hitherto the case.

I am trying to recall a tale of a schoolboy recently who had purchased a stack of old watches in order to remove and use the radium for scientific experiments. Radiation burns spring to mind. Google has come up with this one, which wasn't the one I had in mind.

Uh-oh! 'Radioactive Boy Scout' who built a nuclear reactor in his Detroit shed sparking evacuation of 40,000 now wants to invent a lightbulb that lasts 100 years | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2506549/Uh-oh-Radioactive-Boy-Scout-built-nuclear-reactor-Detroit-shed-sparking-evacuation-40-000-wants-invent-lightbulb-lasts-100-years.html)

Geriaviator

23rd Apr 2015, 16:17

There I was enjoying our best day of the year so far when I heard a once-familiar rumble. Right over the house came a beautiful Dakota, the Twin Wasps sounding as only 28 well-harmonised cylinders can sound.

The 1944 Dak's original careful owner was the USAAF, who used it over Arnhem. It now belongs to KLM, who flew it into Belfast to launch its new Amsterdam route ... and took a select few passengers for flights. :ooh: Geriaviator is green with envy.
TRAVEL FEATURE: THE GOLDEN AGE OF FLYING WITH KLM AIRLINES AS IT RELAUNCHES BELFAST TO AMSTERDAM SERVICE | Belfast Daily (http://www.belfastdaily.co.uk/2015/04/23/travel-feature-the-golden-age-of-flying-with-klm-airlines-as-it-relaunches-belfast-to-amsterdam-service/)

The visit may not have been the first for the venerable Dak. Looking for somewhere to pack thousands of parachutes, the Operation Market Garden planners noticed extensive suitable buildings at Mullaghmore, a training and transit base in Co. Londonderry. The chutes were flown in and out by Daks and Skymasters. Not everyone knows that ...

Robert Cooper

23rd Apr 2015, 18:53

Although the dangers of radium luminous paint had been identified by the 1950s and alternative luminous compounds were being used or developed, the use of radium based luminous paint didn't stop overnight, nor were all the items with paint taken out of service at that time. Interestingly, the following warning appeared in AP 112G-0815 1July 1966:

“Luminous compound at present used, constitutes
a possible danger to health. It is therefore essential
that luminous watches, Ref. No. 6B/346, 6B/551,
and 6B/910100 that have either defective glasses
or loose luminous compound, are individually
sealed in polythene bags at the earliest opportunity.
Polythene bags for this purpose can be made from
2 in lay-flat polythene tubing (ref. No. 32B/943)
and 1 in cellulose tape.”

Bob C

pzu

24th Apr 2015, 01:51

Check out this site

Flying the vintage DC3 with #retroKLM (http://www.travelwithamate.com/flying-vintage-dc3-retroklm/)

Also BBC Look North (Leeds) have a good piece on this a/c, unfortunately I can only find it on FaceBook and when I try to post a link it ties in to my FB page

PZU Out of Africa (Retired)

Danny42C

25th Apr 2015, 00:37

pzu,

Only the most senior among us will recall the MacRobertson UK-Australia international Air Race (1934). The winner was a DH "Comet" special racer, flown by Scott and Campbell-Black.

But in many peoples' eyes, the real winner (on Handicap) was a perfectly ordinary KLM DC-2 (forerunner of the very similar, but fatter DC-3). Flown by Captains Parmentier and Moll, it came in second. :D

D.

pzu

25th Apr 2015, 01:16

Danny

Admittedly I am only a 'Baby Boomer', but yes I am aware of the role that KLM played in that Historic Event back in 1934

And whilst I can't swear to it, I am fairly certain that i observed at least one DC-2 in operation during my childhood in E Africa, I think it was operated by one of the Portuguese lines operating out of Mozambique

Trust you are keeping well

PZ - Out of Africa (Retired)

Fareastdriver

25th Apr 2015, 08:54

Somewhere, sometime, there is a picture of a DC2½. Apparently a DC2 was fitted with one DC3 wing so as to make it fly. The Far East somewhere rings a bell.

mmitch

25th Apr 2015, 09:29

Danny, forgive the thread drift but the race winning D.H. Comet is flying again with the Shuttleworth Collection.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/64209520@N05/17177936652/
mmitch.

MPN11

25th Apr 2015, 09:49

Yes, the DC-2 12 was in China ... a CNAC aircraft out of HK that got shot up in a strafing attack. I read the story somewhere on-line.

EDIT = Found it! http://www.douglasdc3.com/dc2half/dc2half.htm

Danny42C

26th Apr 2015, 21:20

MPN11,

Thanks for the link ! Marvellous what you can do when you have to, isn't it ? Once in the Calcutta "Grand", about '43, I got chatting to a young American CNAC co-pilot. Told me he'd been an Aviation Cadet, got washed out of Primary Flight School with 20 hours on a Stearman. With this, and about 30-odd on a Piper "Cub", and no licences of any kind, they'd taken him on as a co-pilot on their DC-3 Calcutta run "over the Hump" to Kunming (? think Chunking a bit too far for a loaded Dak)

AND he was being paid Rs700 per month - about three times as much as I (as a Sgt-Pilot) was getting, who'd passed the Course he'd failed. Didn't seem right, somehow. :*

Danny.

Fareastdriver

26th Apr 2015, 21:30

As I found out whilst flying for a very good, even exceptional stipend, in the Far East, it's not what you know, it's who you know.

Topcliffe Kid

26th Apr 2015, 21:53

I was in Darwin in 1984 and a (the?) KLM DC2 passed through on I guess the 50th anniversary of the race. I have some photographs somewhere.....

ACW418

26th Apr 2015, 22:00

FED,

Suggest you look at the definition of Stipend. Suggests you were paid rather less than the norm!

Pedant mode off!

ACW

Danny42C

26th Apr 2015, 23:53

At that time, a Sgt-Pilot was on 13/6 a day, say £20/10/- pm (in Rupees 290 odd). This would be the equivalent of some £1250 today. At that he was better off than any newly commissioned Pilot Officer - in UK , that is.

But in India, there was a wonderful scheme. The Government of India paid an officer (not the UK), and they were much more generous. A Pilot Officer was on Rs500 pm (say £36 pm then, or £2200 pm now) - and very small Mess Bills to pay. We were quite happy with our "stipend" !

Only trouble was: there was nothing to spend it on. Even if you drank yourself to death (and very few tried), it wouldn't cost you much at Mess bar prices. :ok:

Danny.

Fareastdriver

27th Apr 2015, 09:42

When we tanked the Javelins out to India in 1963 we were put up in the 'Sun & Sand' hotel in Bombay. As normal we were issued 2/3rd/Rate One. This was 9 rupees a day, still the same as in 1947.:{:{

Edited to add. The NCOs and airmen had all their meals paid for them. The result was that the crew chiefs were being frog-marched into the dining room so that they could treat their aircrew to dinner.

smujsmith

27th Apr 2015, 19:14

Hi Danny,

I'm sure you must have seen this by now, but just in case. A good dose of Mr Elgar accompanies what for you must be an old friend. Apologies if it has been put on before.

http://youtu.be/k4ohwlL_QhI

Smudge :ok:

Danny42C

28th Apr 2015, 01:31

Smudge,

Thank you for the link, but this ("Vlad's") You Tube gem is very well known on this Thread now. Chugalug first found it and put it on here a long time ago, and I wrote an extensive commentary on it at the time. It is unique as being the only video of flying VVs known to me (apart from a few momentary glimpses on the BBC "World of War" series). I was unaware of the existence of this footage for 70 years.

I'm a bit puzzled, as you very kindly drew my attention to this only a momth ago (your #6864 p.344 29th Mar) as "https://youtu.be/B6iG4aSqeuk" (this time it's "http://youtu.be/k4ohwlL_QhI").

I only watched the first few moments of the introduction, but it's our old friend sure enough !

Danny.

PS: Couldn't be a "Senior Moment", by any chance ?.... No, surely not ! (you're nobbut a lad yet) :ok:

Reader123

28th Apr 2015, 14:00

But are we familiar with this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8RqlK1d1_k (Again, apologies if so.)

smujsmith

28th Apr 2015, 17:06

Danny,

I would never argue with my elders and betters, and would agree a "senior moment" may have come in to play:eek: I could have scoured the thread to see if this was already posted, but knew you would have the answer. I'm going to have a search and re read the relevant posts so as to familiarise myself with the relevant thoughts. Meanwhile, I will keep taking the tablets and hope for a full recovery in the very near future.

Best

Smudge:ok:

Danny42C

28th Apr 2015, 18:46

Reader123,

Had another look at them all, and am now thoroughly bemused. Your ("Brar") film is a sort of pick 'n mix of all sorts of things. The historical RAF part was particularly interesting to me, as I served on No.8 Sqn, IAF (VVs) from mid-Dec '43 till autumn '44. The VVs were all pulled off ops in midsummer of that year as it was planned that the Mosquitoes would be doing our job, with fresh crews from UK, and would take over the four RAF Sqn (45,82,84 & 110) numbers.

We were out of a job; we and our aircraft were dispersed to the four winds. I (and most others) thought this a mistake then: I think so now. The 14th Army was pushing the Jap back South; the Jap does not go quietly, but digs in at strong points chosen to hold us up and fights to the death. Reducing these by infantry attack is expensive (as the US Marines knew to their cost in places like Iwo Jima). The VV had found its ideal métier, uprooting these points with accurately applied HE, and could easily have done another "dry" season before the crews were due for repat after a (3-year) Tour. But it was not to be.

Smudge,

First, must gladly withdraw all aspersions cast or implied ! Seems that an awful lot has been spliced into the original You Tubes. They are all worth watching if you can spare the time, but a lot has been copied from one to another.

And the IAF has come a long way from my time !

Cheers, Danny.

Jackw106

28th Apr 2015, 21:12

I have been asked to cross post this clip

TYYVGUXQ31I&feature=player_embedded#at=12

smujsmith

29th Apr 2015, 19:47

JackW,

Good post sir. My long departed father in law was groundcrew on 75 (New Zealand) Squadron at Mepal during WW2 and always rated the Stirling. Stirling in action with Airborne Forces, by Dennis Williams gives some great insights into the aircrafts contribution to our eventual victory. I recommend anyone interested to give it a go.

Smudge :ok:

Danny42C

29th Apr 2015, 23:40

Jackw106,

Nice picture !

À propos of nothing at all, the light metal bomb fins (the back half) come in cylindrical fibreboard cases to avoid damage in transit (or at least, ours did).

These cases are exactly the right size, and sturdy enough, to serve as bar stools at makeshift bars, but not heavy enough to be of any value in a bar fight. :ok:

Just thought you'd like to know !

D.

eko4me

30th Apr 2015, 07:26

Sometimes Danny, it is what is not said that makes a contribution so fascinating :)

ricardian

30th Apr 2015, 16:25

I saw these on Facebook earlier today, they seem relevant to the thread. Apologies for the small type size

https://scontent-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t31.0-8/s960x960/11182661_675512769261318_7832058672042605134_o.jpg

https://scontent-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/t31.0-8/s960x960/10857145_675512782594650_924412428342977323_o.jpg

https://scontent-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/11193309_675512715927990_4493160960847523444_n.jpg?oh=166b66 a6c5ee6abdaa7ce6c3a742d78a&oe=55D75B57

Danny42C

30th Apr 2015, 23:45

ricardian,

Many thanks for this find ! First I've heard of it ! Why didn't they tell me a few weeks earlier ? I flew my last three VVs to Nagpur for scrapping on 12th March, 1946. They put this show on on April 18th. We could have waited another few weeks, collected another two operational VV pilots from somewhere or other (the two supernumeraries I had with me on that last sad flight had no VV dive experience), found three loads of 250 and 500 pounders and really showed the crowd what skilled dive-bombers could do !

But of course, the RAF never believed in d/bombing, was sorry they'd got the things in the first place, closed their eyes to all the good work we'd done, and wished they'd go away. So not even a mention of us in the write-up - we'd been airbrushed out of history. :(

No problem with the text size, btw. Just Ctrl and + as usual.

Danny.

pzu

2nd May 2015, 15:03

Danny

Another Tangent, I see that apart from the 'Altmark', 608 has another claim to fame from WWII

Photograph discovered of 'last RAF bomb dropped on Germany' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/11577234/Photograph-discovered-of-last-RAF-bomb-dropped-on-Germany.html)

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

Danny42C

2nd May 2015, 22:32

pzu,

Thanks for the picture. Of course I only met 608 Sqdn (and "kept my hand in") flying with them, when they'd been reformed after the war as an Auxiliary Sqdn in Fighter Command. They were flying Vampires III and V, and had a Meteor T7 for I/F training and rating tests. There their Training Officer was F/O "Mike" Beavis, who was to retire as ACM Sir Michael Beavis.

Nice idea to have the aircrew plus groundcrew (and a couple of armourers ?) in shot. It was a mystery to me how a Mossie could carry a 4000 lb "cookie" to Berlin (as much, IIRC) as a B-17 "Fortress" over the distance.

Truly, the "Wooden Wonder" ! (this one had seen some service, too, judging by the bomb "tally").

Danny.

AtomKraft

3rd May 2015, 00:53

Hi Danny
I'm based at Vijayawada airport in Andra Pradesh, which I was told used to fly VVs.
Is this true?
I've been looking around the extensive undergrowth in the hope I might find one derelict, but no joy so far....

I figured if I could find one, then there would be two!

Fantome

3rd May 2015, 16:03

Anybody interested in the careers of medicos who were also pilots should have a read here, something of the lives of Sir Geoffrey Dhenin and Sir Philip Livingston -

http://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/452146-passing-incredibly-brave-pilot.html#post8963893

If any PPRuNer can find an obit for Dr Matthew Banks, an Australian
plastic surgeon who worked with Sir Archibald MacIndoe, attained in the War his RAF Wings, and later flew his Miles Gemini far and wide throughout Europe and the Middle East, working as a plastic surgeon for the rich and notable, I'd be most interested to read a copy. Dr Banks' biography (No Man Despairs) was written by Alan Mitchell, who also wrote one on Neville Duke.

Wander00

3rd May 2015, 16:32

Two small points - last year stopped at a small airfield in western France to look at an airworthy Flamant kept there. French guy spoke to me asking if he could be of assistance. Then went on to ask if I had been in the RAF and did I by any chance know his former Father in Law, Geoff Dhenin - was a bit surprised that I had known him , when he was at RAFH Ely in the 70s.
Other point was, there was a gp capt medic as SMO at Cranwell in the early to mid 60s who was also a pilot, but cannot remember his name. Strangely met his mother once- she was working at Robert Sayle (John Lewis) in Cambridge.

Fareastdriver

3rd May 2015, 19:38

There were a few Medical Officers who went through flying training. There was one on my Vampire course at Oakington. It was to give an insight of actual flying to the Aviation Medical Branch.

Danny42C

3rd May 2015, 20:44

AtomKraft,

Vijayawada is a new one on me - the similarity between "VJ" (as in "VJ Day") seems to be a remarkable coincidence, but nothing more. At first I thought it was Vizag(apatam) we were talking about, and there may have been VVs there in the early days, when 84 (?) VV Sqdn were doing anti-submarine patrols from Madras. And of course at the end VVs were doing odd jobs all over the subcontinent. But the latitudes are different, Vijay must be at least 150 mi S of Vizag. Frankly, I never heard of the place - don't think the RAF/IAF used it at all.

If you can come across an overlooked VV nestling in some 'godown' now, you'll be lucky indeed. So lucky that you should have no trouble in pinpointing that hoard of buried Spitfires in Burma about which there was so much excitement a while back.

10/10 for maths ! :ok:

Danny.

Warmtoast

3rd May 2015, 22:52

FANTOME

If any PPRuNer can find an obit for Dr Matthew Banks, an Australian plastic surgeon who worked with Sir Archibald MacIndoe, attained in the War his RAF Wings, and later flew his Miles Gemini far and wide throughout Europe and the Middle East, working as a plastic surgeon for the rich and notable, I'd be most interested to read a copy.Can't find an obit, but he is quite possibly the same chap who was involved in litigation way back in 1960 as below:

QUEEN’S BENCH DIVISION April 8th 1960
PLASTIC SURGERY
CORDER v. BANKS Before Mr. JUSTICE MCNAIR
His LORDSHIP, in a reserved judgment, awarded £1408 damages (including eight guineas special damages) to Mrs. Stella Rachel Gresham (formerly Miss Corder) of Bloomsbury Street, W.C, in this action in which she claimed damages against Mr. James Matthew Banks, plastic surgeon, carrying on practice at Harley Street, W.1, in respect of a facial disfigurement which she alleged was due to his negligent treatment
Mr. F. W. Beney, Q.C., and Mr. Arthur Mildon appeared for the plaintiff; Mr. Martin Jukes, Q.C. and Mr. Peter Webster for the defendant.

Judgment
Mr Justice McNair said that in 1952 the plaintiff was a single woman, aged 29, working as a typist. She was distressed at what she retarded as a disfiguring condition below her eyes, and on December 8 she attended Mr. Banks. He was a well-qualified plastic surgeon, who had facilities for seeing patients in consulting rooms in Harley Street, which be shared with another plastic surgeon, and be had the use of a secretary whom he shared with the other surgeon, and who was available to him during her normal hours of attendance from 10 a.m. to 5.30 p.m. from Monday to Friday. At this address there was also a resident janitor and his wife.
His Lordship accepted that Mr. Banks bad probably first told the plaintiff that his fee for performing an operation would be 50 guineas, with further nursing home charges, but, on being told that she could not afford such fees, that he had agreed to do the operation for a fee of 10 guineas inclusive on the basis that it would be done under a local anaesthetic and that the plaintiff would be an out-patient.
His Lordship found that no charge of professional negligence could be made against Mr. Banks solely on the ground that he did not insist on retaining Mrs. Gresham in a nursing home after the operation, although it was clear that this course involved some increased risk.
The purpose of the operation was to remove excess fat from beneath both eyelids. No criticism was directed to Mr. Banks’ technique for this operation. It was clear that the first 48 hours after the operation were of crucial importance as during that period bleeding might occur and, if it was not attended to properly, irreversible damage might result. It was on the failure of Mr. Banks to carry out sufficient aftercare that the plaintiff's case rested.

TELEPHONE NOT COVERED
His Lordship accepted the view that if a patient was operated on and allowed to go home proper directions should be given by the surgeon to the patient (as had been done in this ease) and that the surgeon himself, or a properly qualified substitute, should be available and accessible to deal with any untoward development until his next appointment to see the patient If a surgeon who adopted the course of letting a patient go home was relying on a telephone message from the patient to deal with an unexpected emergency which might arise, it was essential that the telephone should be adequately covered in the sense that messages would be received and transmitted to the surgeon. This was not done in this ease.
His Lordship was satisfied that on the first day after this operation there was substantial bleeding from the stitches, which continued intermittently for a day or so. that the prudent surgical practice required that such bleeding should be dealt with promptly by a skilled surgeon (the crucial period being the first 48 hours), that proper notification of such bleeding was sent to the address given but not received by Mr. Banks due to his failure to keep his telephone adequately covered or the failure of those for whom he was responsible to inform him of the message. That failure amounted to professional negligence.
His Lordship had reached the conclusion that the condition from which the plaintiff was now suffering was directly caused by the failure to deal with the initial bleeding within the first 48 hours, and accordingly the defendant was liable. On the question of damages, there was no impairment of function, no marked pain and suffering (though much mental anguish) and no loss of earning power. But the plaintiff suffered and had suffered for the past eight years from a definite and marked facial disfigurement such as would be a very real source of embarrassment and distress to any lady of her age.
His Lordship would assess the general damages at £1,500.
Solicitors.—Messrs. Kenneth Brown Baker, Baker: Messrs. Hempsons.

AtomKraft

4th May 2015, 05:35

Danny.
Thanks for your reply re Vijayawada. It was definately a military airfield during the war, and an ex IAF chap I flew with told me that the VVs were operated from here by the IAF, RIAF then I guess?
I think the place was known then as Gannavaram- in fact it still is.

Anyway, if I stagger across a VV in the underbrush, and don't get my ass bitten by a snake, I'll drop you a line. ;)

Fantome

4th May 2015, 07:17

Thank you WT . .. . that's our man for sure. Poor Mrs Gresham. Must be hard though to make a judgement without a series of before and after photographs, such as fill the yellow pages today with page after page of boobs and faces and other regions before and after cosmetic surgery. " Ah Mrs Wong, you have Fazackerly Syndrome. Your face fazackerly like your . . . ."

Wondering WT whether there is a record of any proceeding against James Matthew Banks for the illegal importation of gold bricks. His Miles Gemini on one occasion was searched by customs. They found the gold hidden in the upholstery. It was Matt Banks remuneration for attending to the needs of a wife of the Aga Khan.

There is probably an obit somewhere in one of the specialist journals, if such existed for a society of plastic surgeons.

Warmtoast

4th May 2015, 09:10

Fantome

You're in luck. A couple of press cuttings regarding Mr Banks' smuggling activities from 1 July 1953 and 27 July 1953 respectively.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/James%20Matthew%20Banks%201_zpsyp43u13x.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/James%20Matthew%20Banks%203_zpsfact7ep0.jpg

The Recorder's name in second cutting "Mr Blanco White" - you'd be laughed at if you tried to make it up!

Fantome

4th May 2015, 11:08

Thanks again WT. Here is a post I made on the Aviation Forum website five years ago. Stlil no response regarding John Pimlott.

The late James Matthew Banks was an Australian, a pilot and plastic surgeon who trained under MacIndoe. Alan Mitchell, a biographer of Neville Duke, wrote a biography, 'No Man Despairs', about Banks, which came out about 1960. Banks, based in London, flew his Gemini to various European countries to operate on wealthy patients. One time he was apprehended by British customs, as there were hidden, some gold ingots in his Gemini. I would appreciate any reference to a published obituary of Banks and any court record of his alleged offence. I do not know his date of death. Before he sailed to England at the outbreak of the Second World War, Banks had been Charles Kingsford Smith's doctor and close associate. There is mention of this in Ian Mackersey's biography of Smithy.

Another man I would appreciate any particulars about was the late S/L John Austen Pimlott who flew pre-war with 601 County of London Squadron and served throughout the Second World War in the RAF. After the war he and his family migrated to South Africa where he was involved with mohair textiles. They moved to Australia in 1960 where he also worked in textiles. He flew some 83 types in the war, having been attached for a period to a maintenance unit at Boscombe Down. He said to me when I met him in Canberra in 1960 that he flew in the Battle of Britain, but I have been unable to date to find any reference to Pimlott anywhere.

jeffb

4th May 2015, 15:01

It seems government agencies deal with things like this is mysterious ways. Dad did something ( he would never say what) but it did involve, as he put it, ' putting on yer finest bib and tucker for an audience with the Old Man' Clearly it wasn,t a capitol offence as he was told there was a raid on that night and will deal with it when he returns-but that was the raid they were shot down.
After the war, someone wisely at the time decided, after being shot down ( and knowing 3 of his crewmates perished in the crash-rear gunner trapped in the turret, mid upper went back to help and Skipper remained at controls) being POW for 13 months, a forced march in the middle of winter 1945, and being mistaken at the town of Griesse (sp) for a column of German soldiers and shot up by a flight of RAF Typhoons, that perhaps he had served his sentence for the minor misdeed, and it never went further. In fact, he was given an honourable discharge as Pilot Officer in 1946.
He rejoined the RCAF about 11 years later,not as P O but as AC2-at that time nothing was mentioned about this misdeed. Fast forward to his retirement in 1973, and a shiny new Career Officer noticed on his file that charges were still shown as pending from 1944! Justice must be served for he paraded dad to the CO ( also a WW2 vet and did (ahem!) know of Dad, but in a good way. The CO listened, then quietly told the Career Officer that unless he wanted to be transferred off the base by 2PM, to be Supply Officer in charge of toilet paper inventory at CFS Alert ( Canada,s most northern base, only several hundred miles from the North Pole) he might wish to reconsider proceeding. Wisely, he did, but not before earning himself the unwanted duty of OOD for 6 weekends in a row-to steep himself in military traditions as the CO put it.

Fantome

4th May 2015, 16:47

The canny CO in his wisdom and compassion dealt effectively with the problem and the twit. He was the calibre of man that helped the military to run smoothly and efficiently . Jeff, did you ever try to find the record in the archives of what misdemeanor your old man is supposed to have committed.?

It may have been something as trivial as being AWOL for a night
Or seducing or being seduced by the CO's wife, sister or driver.

Danny42C

4th May 2015, 20:37

AtomKraft,

Still puzzled. Although I had no recollection of the East coast airfields (except Cholaveram, where I spent a few weeks on a Calibration Flight in early '45), the names of all the most used wartime airfields would frequently crop up in conversation, and in 3½ years out there I never remember hearing a Vijayawada spoken of. Perhaps it was used under another name then. On the other hand, "Vizag" was well known (I believe it was a stop-over on the "South Mail" regular route (Calcutta-Madras) by the Daks.

Having said that, "Cannanore" (where I spent my last year) would receive blank looks everywhere.

Watch out for the krait ! := Take Riki-Tikki-Tavi with you.

Danny.

AtomKraft

5th May 2015, 01:11

Danny.
Yep, as I mentioned, it was known as Gannavaram before it became Vijayawada. But my Indian friend may just have been mistaken about the Vultees.
We still operate into Visag though. It's a joint mil/ civ airport now.
Not seen a Krait yet, but our airfield is certainly home to Cobras as my chum found a big one sleeping between the main wheels on his walk around. He thought it prudent to go absolutely nowhere near it.

Fantome

5th May 2015, 01:27

ahhhh . .. . Rikki-Tikki-Tavi . . a masterpiece

http://d1b14unh5d6w7g.cloudfront.net/1484123689.01.S001.LXXXXXXX.jpg?Expires=1430875868&Signature=Gq0+yKCx+KW93pcNrAuZ3YsPsJU2usAcnDMQbggid4XikpAiEI XNE7jRYqpl1mRBbsW6G8IpOcNseouNaYtbvSC0WL3nEPM31GD/QCHmis+W+4IMm+F8i0j0OydbwDs35MCrZVkvd/xOdT5smE+uKt26H7KV2PQSTEjP7cA8CpQ=&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIUO27P366FGALUMQ

http://d1b14unh5d6w7g.cloudfront.net/1484123689.01.S003.LXXXXXXX.jpg?Expires=1430875878&Signature=bKpwwdpR6tI+YtObeJ0IeH110uTPPjAVxvyYbvigCf7CGLoa6g 5dqqaDMlnmCfeozF7/CGQoIoxRSl3yXR0il3QeFLWfmDFz7X+n+dc5pCA8gBtTbR4cJBfq2UO32BG0 N6MwPbFhB9bA2TyCUioYcp+j3X9ztwREUdntOQjxKbo=&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIUO27P366FGALUMQ

THE KIDS LOVED THIS ONE TOO DANNY -

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51bv-C2%2BhqL.jpg

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jeffb

6th May 2015, 09:33

Fantome:
No I haven't gotten Dad,s service records, so I have, in the absence of direct conversations with Dad I have been told stories told to me secondhand from friends and family.
In this instance, supposedly Dad and the nav went to the local pub; on the way back to base they encountered a cow in a field they were using as a shortcut, and came up with a plan to ride it rather than walk. They each tried it without a great deal of success, and a plan was hatched to sneak it on the base and place it in another crew,s hut. Apparently, wherever they placed it, the cow let out a mighty bellow, then made a mess of the place. It would seem the Powers that Be could have been less than amused.
I have also been told that Dad was the last person to exit their blazing Lancaster. The nav had assisted either the flight engineer or wireless op ( incapacitated presumably by lack of oxygen) to the nose escape hatch, where he held onto the fellow,s parachute ring and tossed him out. Dad once speculated to me he often wondered if he could have done more to help free the trapped gunner; he may have been helping and perhaps that is why he was the last one out. In any event, the official records state the aircraft settled into a long glide before crashing; however Dad mentioned that he could see the aircraft on fire as he descended, and it blew up shortly after he bailed out. I have not found out if the aircraft was indeed more or less intact when it crashed.
The final story came from one of his closest friends, where Dad had told him how him, and a US airman, were the object of German civilian rage. They were being escorted to a POW camp, either to the interrogation camp at Frankfurt, or, more likely, to the final camp at Luft 6. While enroute my train, at some city, the air raid sirens went off. It was procedure for everyone to evacuate the train and train station, which they did. A few blocks away they attracted a following of irate civilians, who forced them into a bombed out cellar, and had Dad hold a crude sign saying 'Terrorflieger', the US airman sign was ' Chicago Gangster' The guard didn,t do much to stop them-he has lost his entire extended family in a raid a few days before and had been denied compassionate leave in order to escort the airmen. They were pelted with abuse, sticks, debris, before the all clear sounded and the guard returned them to the train. It is believed this was the cause of Dad temporarily losing his vision 30 years later in 1974.In any event, his vision returned after about 6 weeks, and was excellent up to his passing.