Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II

[Wander00]

IBB - f you Google his name you will find he has appeared a couple of times in previous PPruNe threads


Could not find him in the listakrzystka.pl, which is comprehensive but not a complete list of Poles who served in the RAF

[roving]

The contribution made by the Polish and and Czech pilots should never be forgotten, especially for their sterling performance in the BOB. My father's primary instructor at 3 EFTS in June 1942 was a F/O Meretinsky. I have never been able to learn anything about him - would love to know his story.

Ian BB

Are you sure it wasn't one of the three Imeretinsky brothers, George, Michael and Constantiine? Russian/Georgian Royal Princes who all served in the Royal Air Force , and one of whom, Prince Michael, won the AFC.

extracts from wiki

George was educated at Lancing College. In 1916 he was granted an honorary commission in the 1st Battalion, Grenadier Guards, at the request of the Russian Dowager Empress Maria Feodorovna. Holding the rank of lieutenant he was wounded in the Battle of the Somme in 1917, and served with the regiment until 1920. Later he was an officer in the Royal Air Force, a Cresta champion, and was well known in Bentley racing circles, being a correspondent to various motoring journals. He married first in 1925 Avril Joy Mullens, divorced 1932, and secondly in 1933 Margeret Venetia Nancy Strong. His two younger brothers, Mikheil and Constantine were also educated at Lancing, and joined the Royal Flying Corps.[4]
Prince George died in Cheltenham on 24 March 1972.

Michael Imeretinsky was born to a Georgian father, "Serene Prince" George Imeretinsky (1872–1932), and a Russian mother, Lidya Nikolayevna Klimova (1880–1956), in St. Petersburg. He descended from the royal dynasty of the western Georgian kingdom of Imereti, which had been conquered by the Russian Empire in 1810. Like his elder brother, George, Michael Imeretinsky received his early education at the Lancing College in the United Kingdom and enlisted in the Royal Flying Corps as a sub-lieutenant in 1918. He fought in both World War I and World War II, serving as a squadron commander of the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve on the latter occasion. He was decorated with the Air Force Cross.[1] After his retirement from the military, Imeretinsky lived in the United Kingdom and France. He devoted himself to agriculture, being—as his obituary put it—"a prominent member of the Soil Association and a well-known horticulturist in France."[2] In 1975, he died, aged 75, in Nice, being the last direct male descendant of the kings of Imereti

[Danny42C]

thegypsy (#11501),

As a single-seater at the time, I've always believed that we were never able to train enough pilots to provide two pilots for things like Wellingtons. In the early contempory semi-official film "Target for Tonight", only one pilot is shown in "F for Freddie". Same for Lancasters and Halifaxes in Bomber Command later in the war. The USAAC trained enough to provide co-pilots for everything that had twin seats in front.

But we have stacks of multi ex-pilots on board here who can give us the real 'gen'.

Danny,

[roving]

AFC award

Flight Lieutenant Prince Michael IMERETINSKY
(78190), Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/36544/supplement/2648

Pit. Oils, (prob.) to be confirmed in their appts.
and to be Fig. Offs. (war subs.): —

23rd Nov. 1941.' (Seny. iAth Nov. 1941).

Prince M. IMERETINSKY (78190)

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/35387/page/7188

[MPN11]

A remarkable bounty of AFCs (and indeed AFMs) in that list! There must be some interesting tales involved.

I assume the AFM (next page) awarded to an LAC involved a pilot under training?

[ian16th]

Been AWOL for 4 weeks+, with a u/s DSL line. Had a lot of catching up to do.

Nice to see the dear old Bev getting a good write up! At Istres/Orange they were our daily bread & butter traffic.

Our worst nightmare was a Bev full of Pongo's going u/s overnight, and having to find accomodation for them all.

Danny, Your local pubs should be doing good business tonight :ok:

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

WanderOO

Sincere thanks for your efforts, but Mr roving has cracked the mystery!

roving

I have the PILOT'S FLYING LOG SHEET (SUBSTITUTE FOR FORM 414) No. 3 E.F.T.S. June 1942 before me and I now, with a magnifying glass, can see that the name squashed into the column for PILOT OR 1st PILOT is F/O IMERETINSKY. All these years I had read the I as a part of the first stroke of the letter M - note to self - visit optician soonmost! This kind of thing does happen with logs hand-written by those who are no longer with us - petet on this great thread has been brilliant at deciphering mysterious squiggles for us from WW 2 forms.
So, my late father had a White Russian Prince teach him up to solo - what a turn-up for the book!
Mr roving I owe you a drink for making me look more closely at this yellowing 75 year old piece of stationary. Thank you Sir.

Ian BB

[Wander00]

Ha, ha. That initial "I" makes all the difference. Glad he is found

[ICM]

Danny: Further to your #11504, I believe it was the introduction of the Air Bomber category circa mid-1942 that permitted the change to single-pilot operation in Bomber Command. There's lots about the progressive change in aircrew categories during the war in Jeff Jefford's "Observers and Navigators" and that's the picture that emerges in the 10 Squadron (Halifax) ORBs of that time. Possibly of interest - when the Squadron switched to Dakotas after VE Day and went out to India, the crews included the Air Bombers as 2nd Pilots for a couple of months until a group of pilots, until then on gliders, became available to take over.

[roving]

sidevalve I do not know if you have seen the Obituary of Yvonne Burney mee Baseden, who died on 28 October 2017 aged 95. This from wiki

She was born in Rue Violet, Paris. Baseden's father was a World War I pilot in the Royal Flying Corps. He crash-landed in France at the home of the Comte de Vibraye, where he was invited by the Comtesse to have dinner. Whilst at the dinner, he met and fell in love with the daughter of the Comte and Comtesse. The couple went on to marry and lived in France following the end of the War.
The family travelled and lived around Europe, so as a result Baseden was educated at schools in England, France, Poland, Italy and Spain and in addition to being bilingual (English and French), she also spoke a basic level of many other languages. In 1937, the family moved to London, where they settled in Tottenham. Baseden was uninterested in school and left school aged 16 to work apple picking in Bedfordshire. In 1939, before the outbreak of war, she moved to Southampton, where she worked as a bilingual shorthand typist in an engineering firm.

On 4 September 1940 (aged 18), Baseden joined the Women's Auxiliary Air Force (WAAF) as a General Duties Clerk (Service No 4189). She was commissioned in 1941 (later promoted to the rank of Section Officer) and worked in the RAF Intelligence branch, where she assisted in the interrogation of captured airmen and submarine crews. It was through this work that she came to the attention of the Special Operations Executive (SOE), which she joined on 24 May 1943.

One of the youngest SOE women to be dropped by parachute, aged 22[1], Baseden left from RAF Tempsford airbase near Sandy on the night of 18/19 March 1944. Her field name was "Odette". She was parachuted into France with Gonzague Saint Geniès, a French organizer (field name: "Lucien"). They were dropped into South West France, close to the village of Gabarret. The local resistance were working for George Starr's network named "Wheelwright". They hid them for a few days, then she made her own way across France, her wireless equipment travelling separately, to Jura in Eastern France, where she worked for four months as the wireless operator to the Scholar circuit.[2] Her cover story was that she was "Mademoiselle Yvonne Bernier", a shorthand typist and secretary.
Following the largest daylight air drop of the war to that date, during a routine search by the Gestapo on 26 June 1944, she was trapped in a cheese factory with seven colleagues from the network. Her organiser took a suicide pill immediately, as he was known to the Gestapo. Baseden was found, arrested and taken away for local questioning. At the end of that month, she was moved to the Gestapo Headquarters in Dijon and kept in solitary confinement.
On 25 August 1944, she was transferred to a prison in Saarbrücken and then to Ravensbrück concentration camp on 4 September of the same year. While at Ravensbrück, she became ill and was put in the camp hospital, nursed by, among others, Mary Lindell, where she remained until the liberation of the camp. She was one of 50 women released from Ravensbrück to the Swedish Red Cross.

[pzu]

Not sure if any of this threads followers will have seen this recent posting by ‘Centaurus’

http://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/601509-fine-book-former-raaf-kittyhawk-pilot.html

In the linked document there is even mention of an RAAF ‘ Vengeance’

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

[PPRuNeUser0139]

sidevalve I do not know if you have seen the Obituary of Yvonne Burney nee Baseden, who died on 28 October 2017 aged 95. This from wiki

Thanks roving - a friend in the UK was kind enough to forward that obit to me.
The world of Tempsford, Lysanders & 161 Sqn is another fascinating area.
To pick just one example from the flying side, that the pilots were able to find their way deep into a darkened France and find the right field, land and then return (in a single engined ac) is testament to their exceptional airmanship.
I have a copy of Hugh Verity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Verity)'s "We landed by moonlight" somewhere in the house.
I happened to bump into a Brit down here whose father was a SOE radio operator for Section F (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOE_F_Section_networks).. He was lucky not to have been caught.
These were brave people.

[Wander00]

One of the Trustees at the Yacht Club where I was Secretary was the late Air Vice-Marshal Sir Alan Boxer. At his funeral a large part of the eulogy recounted his exploits at Tempsford. I was so glad that I had secured the services of a trumpeter from the Central Band and the attendance of 2 Air Officers to see him off properly

[pzu]

Possibly a worthy topic for this thread

BBC One - Women at War !00 tomorrow Tuesday November 7th at 0915hrs

BBC Radio 5 live Presenter Nicky Campbell learns about his mother’s role as a Radar Operator in the Women's Auxiliary Air Force in World War II

Apologies can't get the link thread right

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

[Chugalug2]

Wander00, glad his service gave Sir Alan Boxer a proper send off, and well done for arranging it. The Assistant Commandant of the RAFC was Sir Lewis Hodges when I was there. A good and inspiring man who played a mean set of drums! He was CO of 161 Squadron at Tempsford 1943-44. One of his passengers was one Francoise Mitterrand, who in 1988 conferred on him the title of Grand Officier of the Légion d'Honneur (he was already a Commandeur of it).

[MPN11]

Sad that "Odette"'s departure didn't seem to attract any Media attention. RIP, you brave** lady. thanks, roving .. a bit of Google says so much more about an extraordinary lady.

As for pzu's link .. thanks for that. An insightful read of a good career!

[Wander00]

Chug - thanks for reminder - it was Sir Lewis Hodges who gave Alan Boxer's eulogy!

[roving]

1 SQUADRON - Fighter, Hawker Hurricane Mk I
AASF - 67 (Fighter) Wing (N° 1, N° 17, N° 73, N° 501, N° 242 Sqdns)

By the outbreak of the Second World War the Squadron had worked up sufficiently to deploy to France as part of 67 Wing of the Advanced Air Striking Force. In October 1939 it flew over enemy territory for the first time and on the 30th of that month claimed its first victory, a Dornier DO17. Further occasional combat took place and the successes mounted.

However, the situation developed significantly in April 1940, and 10th May was the date on which No 1 (Fighter) Squadron became fully operation in every sense of the word. Fighting was intense and a week later the Squadron was bombed out of its base at Berry-au-Bac; then began a series of retreats ending finally in a return to the UK. The Squadron was back at Tangmere by 23rd June and operational the following month.

As German forces advanced on Paris, following the conclusion of the Dunkirk evacuation, the position of the French became ever more critical. On 14 June the squadron moved to Boos, on the Seine, covering evacuations from this port. Three days later it flew south into Brittany on similar duties. From here the remaining pilots flew home to England on 18 June, the ground crews coming out by sea.

What, then, had 1 Squadron achieved during this period of hectic operations and disastrous retreat in the battle for France?

Between 10 and 19 May at least 86 more victories had been claimed, at a cost of 17 Hurricanes, but with only two pilots killed and two seriously wounded. From then until the evacuation to England not a single further loss of either aircraft or pilot was suffered, although claims for 16 more opposing aircraft were submitted, to bring the total since the outbreak of war to at least 125 (17 of which remained unconfirmed).

Total losses in combat since September 1939 amounted to 22 aircraft crashed or force-landed, two pilots killed, one missing and two wounded. By the end of June 1940, ten Distinguished Flying Crosses (DFCs) had been awarded to officers of the squadron, and three Distinguished Flying Medals (DFMs) had been received by NCO pilots.

During the last days (France, June 1940) the airfield at Nantes was crowded with a strange assortment of machines as civil and communication aircraft were pressed into service to aid the evacuation. There were similar scenes at other points. Many men also left from the western ports where the German air attacks on the transports were heavy. Fighter patrols gave what protection they could and were able to drive off many attacks, but one disaster occurred at St. Nazaire on 17 June when the liner Lancastria was dive-bombed and sunk and upwards of 3000 perished. A British pilot from No.1 Squadron reported the destruction of the bomber which hit the ship. The fighter pilots were, in fact, the last to leave, with the enemy vanguard almost within striking distance. On completion of the final evacuation at Cherbourg, the last Hurricane to fly over the town and harbour was, appropriately enough, piloted by Air Vice-Marshal Park.

23/05/1940:

;b]F/L F*.E. Warcup[/b], F/O D.S. Thorn and F/S A.V. Clowes share in the destruction of a He111. Time and location unknown.

14/06/1940: Shipping escort patrol, St. Nazaire, F

Sgt A.V. Clowes is credited with a He111 destroyed. Time unknown.

Type: Hurricane Mk 1
Serial number: ?, JX-?
Operation: Shipping escort patrol
Lost: 14/06/1940
Flight Lieutenant F*. Warcup baled out and captured. Aircraft a write-off.

* Should read "P".

Philip Edmund Warcup was a POW initially in Stalag Luft I and subsequently in Stalag Luft III until the end of the War.

---

Born in 1915 the son of an oil executive living on the Wirral, Warcup was at grammar school when his father died when he was aged 15. He left school and became a Halton Apprentice on completion of which he went to Cranwell.

At Cranwell he excelled at sport, as one would expect for a tall, well built young man, representing the College in both football and cricket.

He trained to fly Spitfires and became a flight commander and led the aerobatic team of 54 Sqn, before being posted to France to bolster up the air cover during the embarkation of British armed forces and others from France.

Upon being repatriated he was immediately moved up the promotions list to Temp Wing Commander. He had not of course flown for 5 years and filled a number of staff roles.

In July 1954 he was promoted to the rank of Group Captain.

In 1957 he was appointed staish at RAF K.L.

At the end of that tour, he spent a year on the Imperial Defence Course at the completion of which he was promoted to Air Commodore and posted as Assistant Commandant at RAF Staff College, Bracknell.

In the early 1960's the USA were anxious to learn all they could as to why the UK had won against the communists in Malaysia whilst the USA was losing against the communists in Vietnam. In January 1963 Warcup chaired a symposium held in the USA of senior military personnel from the UK, Australia and USA.

This the link to the paper which was produced.

https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_memoranda/2005/RM3651.pdf

Philip Warcup was a very effective and popular station commander in KL, he was clearly marked out to move much higher up the flag pole.

But guess what -- before the end of 1963 he had retired. I think I know why, but I will not post about it.

Why do I post about him?

I explain tomorrow. (It is just a pity I do not have the colour slides uploaded to my computer.)

[Wander00]

The evacuation via Nantes and St Nazaire area, from which I believe almost as many men were recovered as from Dunkirk, is less well known. A few years back I was laying a wreath on the Op CHARIOT memorial at St Nazaire on behalf of the family of Lt Cdr "Sam" Beatty VC, Captain of HMS Campbeltown, when I was stopped by a very elderly but elegant French woman , who asked what I was doing. She then told me that not only had she as a 14 year old watched the CHARIOT raid, she had also seen Lancastria bombed and sunk. Drove home very quietly

[roving]

There was a press D Notice about the sinking of Lancastria. The Government was concerned about the effect on public moral of so many lost on one ship. There is speculation that as many as 7000 may have been aboard, most of whom were lost. After Dunkirk the German bombers targeted ships evacuating from the Channel Ports further down the coast.

I think I read that Warcup, who was shot down three days before it was sunk by a gunner on a bomber.

[oxenos]

In the early 1960's the USA were anxious to learn all they could as to why the UK had won against the communists in Malaysia whilst the USA was losing against the communists in Vietnam. In January 1963 Warcup chaired a symposium held in the USA of senior military personnel from the UK, Australia and USA.
Interesting to see that a Colonel Clutterbuck was also on the panel. Read a book by him years ago on the Malayan "Emergency". He emphasised the importance of keeping the local villagers on side with the hearts and minds campaign, a point which was lost on the Americans in Vietnam.

[MPN11]

Interesting to see that a Colonel Clutterbuck was also on the panel. Read a book by him years ago on the Malayan "Emergency". He emphasised the importance of keeping the local villagers on side with the hearts and minds campaign, a point which was lost on the Americans in Vietnam.The UK had, of course, considerable experience in 'Foreign Relations" through the days of Empire [good or ill]. In the nicest possible way, the USA was, and indeed largely is, totally ignorant in that field.

Isolationism and Engagement are uneasy bed-fellows.

[Rossian]

......some of you may remember my talking about a 94 yr old ex-RAF pilot who I thought would be a good fit in here if he could be enticed in here to read some of this wonderful thread.
I found a former course mate from South Cerney and ex Shack driver living in the same village as my brother-in-law who was also part of the plan and arrangements were put together.
When approached, Buster said that it was all too far away in time and he would prefer NOT to go back that far into his life. (I think he may have expressed hiself more robustly).
Ho hum - it was worth a try and I still would like to spend an evening in his company.

The Ancient Mariner

[MPN11]

Sad, Rossian, but we must respect the individual's choice.


I, on the other hand, have little to hide, as many young ladies will attest.

[Chugalug2]

I have posted before about a Polish Nav on 48 Sqn Hastings at Changi, but his story warrants a brief reprise given present posts.

Together with much else of the Polish Army after the fall of Poland, Victor Fontes (a Polish Cavalry Officer) went south east to the Black Sea port of Constanta (a remarkable feat in itself), embarked there in a British ship for Gibraltar, transhipped for Western France to fight the Wehrmacht that had laid waste to his homeland, but arrived there only for the fall of that country. He fled south to the Pyrenees with the aid of the brave guides described to us by sidevalve, was arrested and then escaped from the Franco regime, made it back to Gibraltar where he joined the RAF for training as a Bomber Pilot (there being a lack of vacancies for Cavalry Officers!).

He survived that very dangerous occupation and remained with the post war RAF, together with so many other Poles he knew that a return to the now Communist regime back home could mean certain death. He later remustered as a nav because of the surplus of pilots.

A larger than life character in every way and still challenged by his adopted tongue, Vic was a survivor in every way and an inspiration for a then still callow co-pilot.

[Blacksheep]

Interesting to see that a Colonel Clutterbuck was also on the panel. Read a book by him years ago on the Malayan "Emergency". He emphasised the importance of keeping the local villagers on side with the hearts and minds campaign, a point which was lost on the Americans in Vietnam.Mrs B lived in the "protected village" of Pokok Assam near Taiping, which was in a Hot Zone of Perak until the age of ten. She had no idea they were surrounded by Communist Terrorists or that fighting was going on all around them. Her Grandfather owned a rubber smallholding in Ayer Kuning that was the scene of a two hour gun battle between the CTs and a Malaysian Police Field Unit, but knew nothing about it until I pointed it out in a book about the Malayan Emergency. I doubt if there any 1960s Vietnamese children who were unaware of the Vietnam War.

[roving]

My dad had flown out to KL in '55, my mother, myself and younger brother arrived at Singapore by ship in January '56. I was 7 yrs and about 6weeks old.

We must not have had enough green shield stamps to move immediately onto the Camp, which for me was a Godsend because my dad had rented a beautiful bungalow and large garden on the outskirts of KL. One end of the garden abutted heavily forested land and there were banana plants in the garden.

Primary school, which as I previously described, was on Batu Cantonment Army Camp. School hours were from early A.M. until mid-day.

Every morning an Army truck complete with a couple of young soldiers in the back to lift us into and out of this vehicle would collect me and others and transport us to school and at mid-day bring us back.

I recall little of my time at the school, other than that one day my dad flew a Single Pin in and parked it in front of the school.

But I always knew that there were terrorists at play but I guess we never strayed out of the 'white areas' as those parts of Malaya where the terrorists did not operate, were known.

We drove to a number of the coastal towns and beaches and in '56 up to Frasers' Hill for a holiday, in a convoy as I recall. On these trips we passed through many check-points in the Nash Airflight. My dad always placed his SD Cap on the rear parcel shelf. He said it got us through much quicker. Not sure if he had a revolver in the glove compartment. It would not have surprised me if he did.

Our next door neighbour was a serving Army officer. He had two teenage sons at boarding school in the UK. His hobby was collecting butterflies which he kept in beautiful wooden and glass cases. He once took me into the jungle with him in search of exotic butterflies.

[roving]

RIP Dick Gordon. In 1969 he flew to the moon.

FBhIDjWaByg

[MPN11]

...
Our next door neighbour was a serving Army officer. He had two teenage sons at boarding school in the UK. His hobby was collecting butterflies which he kept in beautiful wooden and glass cases. He once took me into the jungle with him in search of exotic butterflies.I did modest amount of butterfly collecting in Singapore too. A couple of boxed frames brought home as gifts to my parents. Bought some box-framed scary beetles as well, but they were less popular!.

[roving]

On Sunday, Remembrance Day, the Nation and the Commonwealth pay tribute to the many who have died in wars.

In his book "Broken Wings" James J Halley records that between the end of WWII and
the end of 1999, there have been over 6,000 accidents to RAF aircraft which have resulted in aircraft being removed from service. In a significant number of them aircrew and passengers died.

These accidents were in the main not caused by enemy action but in some instances caused or contributed to by design and maintenance failures. coupled with a lack of navigational aids and support, particularly in overseas operations.

This was no more evident than in Malaya during the 12 years of the Emergency when a number of aircrew and air despatchers were lost on supply operations over the jungle. In the case of Valetta aircraft of 48 (based in Changi) and 110 (based in KL) Squadrons, it was a recurrent problem. It was not just the RAF, a RNZA Bristol Freighter based in Changi, flown by the Sqn OC, crashed in bad weather in 1956, with 8 lost.

I will be thinking of the Service I attended as an 9 year old boy, at K.L. in 1957 for the three SNCO aircrew of 110 Sqn, one of whom was aged just 21, who died when a Valetta crashed into the jungle, not as a result of navigational or flying error, but an oversped engine.

[Fareastdriver]

It's the 10th of the month: Mess bill!!!

[oxenos]

It's the 10th of the month: Mess bill!!!

I left the R.A.F. 37 years ago on Sunday and still the sight of the 10th on a calendar triggers exactly that thought. Obviously I am not the only one.

[roving]

I left the R.A.F. 37 years ago on Sunday

12 November 1980?

At almost exactly a year before my dad retired from flying with Marshalls at Shawbury and from VR T flying, just ahead of his 65th birthday. That is quite a long time ago.

You will have witnessed many changes in the Service since then.

[oxenos]

12 November 1980?
Yes, but I was a mere 38 years old

[roving]

16 years service or age 38 commission?

[Wander00]

"Today is the 10th" notices in the mess. Well known Lincolnshire fighter base, me newly minted but ageing OC Accounts and fighter pilots reluctant to meet the deadline despite all sorts of threats. But with the advantage of a budgie on my jumper I did a deal with the squadron commanders - at cop on 10th I gave them a list of non-payers. They were promptly removed from the flying programme, and were restored when I notified receipt of the relevant cheque. Worked a dream.

[oxenos]

16 years service or age 38 commission?
Cranwell just before I was 18, so on the General List. Chose to leave at 38 having done just over 20 years total.

[roving]

Cranwell just before I was 18, so on the General List. Chose to leave at 38 having done just over 20 years total.

I guess that there would have been a demand in the civilian world for Cranwell educated Royal Air Force aircrew of your age.

add

I never really understood my father preferring to fly single engine military aircraft throughout his career rather than move into civilian aviation. He once said he preferred aircraft with either one or four engines.

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

Roving
I understand your father's preference very well. He was quite right - twin prop. aircraft of the era (WW2 and post -war piston prop twins were lethal when things went wrong. Safety was never a consideration in the design of these machines, (Apart from the DC-3). Danny (and his generation) just accepted this as normal even tho' the test pilots at Boscombe, and elsewhere had described cockpit layouts of the time as "ergonomic slums". At this time of remembrance it is fitting that the the post-war carnage in the R.A.F. is also remembered.

Ian BB

[Fareastdriver]

post -war piston prop twins were lethal

So were jets. The Gloster Meteor wasn't called the 'Meatbox' for nothing. I remember a familiarisation flight where we were flying at about 500 ft. over solid status with a couple of thousand feet underneath it.

"Carry out a low level circuit but leave the airbrakes out."

So I did to the book apart from the airbrakes.

We were almost vertical as we went through the stratus.

[Danny42C]

FED (#11451),

There is a Thread way back on this Forum about Meteor accident statistics in the '50-'51 period. They make sobering reading.

Danny.

[oxenos]

I guess that there would have been a demand in the civilian world for Cranwell educated Royal Air Force aircrew of your age.

Ex Cranwell cut no ice whatsoever. Suitable experience and an ATPL were what counted. This is all a bit off thread.

[roving]

FED (#11451),

There is a Thread way back on this Forum about Meteor accident statistics in the '50-'51 period. They make sobering reading.

Danny.

A new thread has been created posting the Obit for AM Sir Peter Bairsto

which refers to the Meteor accidents.

As a boy he had dreamt of becoming a pilot. He volunteered to fly in 1944 as soon as he reached 18 and was one of those who braved a high accident rate among those pilots flying early jet fighter aircraft, such as the Gloster Meteor. “Places like [the training establishment at] Driffield were a Meteor bloodbath,” he noted. “At Worksop, where I instructed, we counted on one fatality a month . . . when 43 Squadron converted to the first Hunters we had six serious crashes, including fatalities, in the first six months.”

601757

[roving]

This is the shorter of two of videos about the 1957 Valetta crash I posted about yesterday.

Both created by Norman Doctor, a National Service Soldier posted to KL as a Despatcher. He would have been on the flight save that he had been sent to Changi for training.

6k9DK2acTEk

[roving]

The gravestones of the three aircrew at Cheras Road KL.

[Geriaviator]

My late father, who served in the RAF 1936-1962, deeply regretted the treatment of Bomber Command after WW2. He maintained that the 55,000-plus lives lost were never acknowledged by many of the self-serving politicians of post-war years, still less by the PC brigade of more recent times.

So I was saddened to see that ex-Lancaster navigator Jim Wright, who flew in 43 wartime raids and won the DFC, says that at 95 he can no longer continue his campaign to recognise the sacrifices of Bomber Command. He has failing vision and struggles to use a computer to send the emails required to keep the campaign going.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/raf-bomber-command-hero-jim-wright-forced-to-give-up-medal-fight-88m2xxqsn?shareToken=e2ad8051de9ee8140c8bc6c70f4f79b8

[thegypsy]

I blame Churchill. Apart from being the right person for WW11 up to a point at the time before that and after he was a disaster.

[Chugalug2]

I blame the RAF High Command. We had to wait 57 years for a national memorial to be erected to Bomber Command for its long and hard fought campaign, and that thanks primarily to Robin Gibb of the Bee Gees pressing hard for it. No such problem with the BoB Memorials, far more uncontroversial of course...

[ricardian]

One of the unsung heroines of WW2 who flew in the Air Transport Auxiliary (ATA) above the skies of Britain has died aged 94. (http://www.forces.net/news/spitfire-lady-joy-lofthouse-dies-aged-94)

[PPRuNeUser0139]

I've just heard that the sad news that Aline Dumon (http://www.edenbridgetown.com/in_the_past/The_comet_line/index_12_lillys_story.php), aka "Michou" or "Lily", died at midday today at her home near Uzès in Provence. She was 96. She received the George Medal from the King after the war for her work with the Comet Line.
We had lunch together in Provence 3 years ago and it was clear that she had a streak of determination a mile wide running through her - after all these years.
She loved her 'boys' of the RAF and the USAAF that she led through France and over the Pyrenees (in all weathers) into Spain - and, typical of her modesty, she thought that they were the real heroes, not people like her. She personified the greatest generation.. a life well lived.
RIP Michou.

Here are the two sisters - Andrée (17) and "Michou" (19) - photographed during the war. Both were active in Comet - Andrée was arrested and spent 2 years in Ravensbrück and Mauthausen.

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

Ricardian your #11550

Thanks to you for the link to the news of another of those great ATA ladies passing.

Pity that the news was written so poorly - the plural of aircraft (as most here know) is not "aircrafts" and The Spitfire is not, and never was, a "jet".

I wonder - does this writer work for the modern-day BBC?

OK Grumpy old man rant over!

Ian BB

[MPN11]

RIP, Madame ... there are not enough words to express thanks, and admiration, for what you did. You crazy brave girl, I salute you!

[Chugalug2]

Sidevalve, very sad news but thank you for informing us of Michou's passing.

Two girls and their bikes, a combination that spelled doom for Nazi tyranny!

RIP Ma'am. I'll be raising a glass to you tonight.

[roving]

One of the unsung heroines of WW2 who flew in the Air Transport Auxiliary (ATA) above the skies of Britain has died aged 94. (http://www.forces.net/news/spitfire-lady-joy-lofthouse-dies-aged-94)

A truly remarkable Lady.

[roving]

I've just heard that the sad news that Aline Dumon (http://www.edenbridgetown.com/in_the_past/The_comet_line/index_12_lillys_story.php), aka "Michou" or "Lily", died at midday today at her home near Uzès in Provence. She was 96. She received the George Medal from the King after the war for her work with the Comet Line.
We had lunch together in Provence 3 years ago and it was clear that she had a streak of determination a mile wide running through her - after all these years.
She loved her 'boys' of the RAF and the USAAF that she led through France and over the Pyrenees (in all weathers) into Spain - and, typical of her modesty, she thought that they were the real heroes, not people like her. She personified the greatest generation.. a life well lived.
RIP Michou.

Here are the two sisters - Andrée (17) and "Michou" (19) - photographed during the war. Both were active in Comet - Andrée was arrested and spent 2 years in Ravensbrück and Mauthausen.

How fortunate you were sidevalve to have met her and enjoyed her company. Another great Lady.

[Chugalug2]

ricardian, thanks for the link to The Forces Network piece re Joy Lofthouse, though she deserved better than this abysmal write-up. Any pilot will empathise with those whose job involved taking any type solo, regardless of its size and performance, anywhere within a wartime UK.

Evidently appreciation of the ability of these ATA female pilots was not always that positive, with reception personnel waiting patiently at the foot of the steps for the pilot having made way for a female "helper" who preceded "him".

Checks complete, Captain. RIP.

[roving]

ricardian, thanks for the link to The Forces Network piece re Joy Lofthouse, though she deserved better than this abysmal write-up.

Checks complete, Captain. RIP.

As I recall She starred in the very long two (or was it three) part documentary made about the ATA. I think there also a second documentary about the Ladies of the ATA.

Both documentaries are on youtube. I will have a dig around and post links to them.

[PPRuNeUser0139]

How fortunate you were sidevalve to have met her and enjoyed her company. Another great Lady.
Yes, it really was a privilege.
Pierre Ugeux, her late husband had been the president of Formula One (in the 70s I think) and so for a few years she was whizzed around Europe's racetracks living the high life. She remembered Monaco - with the Rainiers - as being something out of a dream. Her house was full of F1 memorabilia - signed steering wheels from the 'greats', crash helmets, photos, all sorts. Plus she was a real charmer.. She told me her one luxury was 2 glasses of rosé every evening.
A very special lady indeed.
If any PPRuNers find themselves in the vicinity of Uzès cathedral next Tuesday afternoon (2.30pm) and would wish to attend the funeral, you'd be most welcome.

[roving]

Yes, it really was a privilege.
Pierre Ugeux, her late husband had been the president of Formula One (in the 70s I think) and so for a few years she was whizzed around Europe's racetracks living the high life. She remembered Monaco - with the Rainiers - as being something out of a dream. Her house was full of F1 memorabilia - signed steering wheels from the 'greats', crash helmets, photos, all sorts. Plus she was a real charmer.. She told me her one luxury was 2 glasses of rosé every evening.
A very special lady indeed.
If any PPRuNers find themselves in the vicinity of Uzès cathedral next Tuesday afternoon (2.30pm) and would wish to attend the funeral, you'd be most welcome.

It would be wonderful to be there sidevalve, but alas I cannot be.

This is link of a photograph of her and Pierre Ugeux in uniform during the war.

Last Best Hope: A True Story of Escape, Evasion, and Remembrance (http://www.alpheusmedia.com/lastbesthope/interviews/mdumon.html#header)

[roving]

faJuJV31L-A

bKhgsOWoCh4

M-xjUqiqVq0

[PPRuNeUser0139]

More on "Michou" here (http://www.omsa.org/files/Verstraeten%20Geo%20M.pdf), including the story how she'd initially been recommended for 'just' an MBE after the war - until the Awards Bureau realised just how much she'd achieved - when it was upgraded to the GM.:D

Edited to add: This column (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A928-2004May29.html) from The Washington Post briefly touches on how "Michou" (aka "Lily") nursed Bob Grimes (a B-17 aircraft commander) back to health in Brussels over a 5-6 week period in late 1943 after he'd had a fragment of a bullet removed (without anaesthetic) from his leg.
The full story of how she looked after Bob is revealed in Peter Eisner's book The Freedom Line (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1501958.The_Freedom_Line). (well worth a read)
Bob was lucky to survive the ill-advised crossing of the river Bidassoa that cost 2nd Lt Jim Burch and Count Antoine d'Ursel their lives.
Bob's daughters have come here twice now to retrace their father's footsteps.

[Danny42C]

RIP, "Michou" - and all your brothers and sisters of the Resistance, who braved discovery or betrayal, followed by imprisonment, torture and a painful death, in order to hide and help Allied airmen on their way back to freedom.

I simply cannot imagine the kind of courage that required of you. To my mind, it was of an even higher order than that the fighting men had (at times) to display. For the danger hung like a Sword of Damocles over your heads night and day all through the years of the war.

GM - Yes - but how about the GC ?

I salute you, Madame. Danny.

[PPRuNeUser0139]

That's it exactly Danny.. The helpers and guides were under threat 24/7.. and you don't want to think about what awaited them if/when they were arrested.
Michou's sister is still alive and kicking - she lives in Brussels. We had lunch at the RAF Club last December.
The two of them are much of a muchness. What a family!
MPN11 got it right:
RIP, Madame ... there are not enough words to express thanks, and admiration, for what you did. You crazy brave girl, I salute you!
This was the house in Biarritz used by the Gestapo for interrogations.. I can never drive by it without thinking.

[Wander00]

There re not words enough to acknowledge the courage of resisters and those who helped escapers. The legacy lingers: in a village near here there are still two "camps" - those who resisted and those who did not resist enough. SWMBO has a friend who knows an elderly lady locally who as a 12 year old was on her way to a meeting of a resistance group in the Mervent Forest near here. The lass got a puncture in her bike tyre and so was going to be late at the RV. Minutes later she heard gunfire. All those who were at RV had been killed by the Germans. There is memorial at the spot which is most moving

[PPRuNeUser0139]

If any PPRuNers find themselves in the vicinity of Uzès cathedral next Tuesday afternoon (2.30pm) and would wish to attend the funeral, you'd be most welcome.
Change of location - the funeral will now take place at the church at the nearby village of Saint-Siffret (https://www.google.fr/maps/place/30700+Saint-Siffret/@44.0034424,4.4826872,11z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x12b5b5f0dd8daa57:0x4078821166b3620!8m2!3d4 4.017003!4d4.467847?hl=en), date & times as above.

[roving]

Danny is now aged 96. Many Happy Returns for which ever day it was.

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

Well spotted roving!

Well done Danny - talk about endurance! I hope that you marked the day with some suitable refreshment, I shall make you my toast of the day when I raise a glass tonight.
Good Health to you Sir!

Ian BB

We are a bit late with this tho' - think it was the 10th Nov. (well it was in 2015).

[DFCP]

A couple of months ago Danny I posted looking for information re S/Ldr Reg Reynolds DSO and bar, DFC and bar---Blenheims, Mosquitos etc.
Through a variety of sources I found that at 98 or 99 he is still alive and living in a nursing home in the Toronto area.
The main source of information was his co pilot in the early 50, s when they, for several years were flying supplies in connection with an extension to the North of a railroad in Quebec.When the rail work finished in the mid 50, he flew a Heron for many years , and, as I had learned earlier he retired from flying on a twin Piper for a Toronto radio station.
The co pilot confirmed that Reg had flown for KLM in the early post war years.
D

[Chugalug2]

DFCP, your CV for Sqn Ldr Reynolds, DSO and bar, DFC and bar, is awesome and demonstrates fully the flexibility that is fundamental to the profession of aviation. War, airlines, railways, GA, and traffic reporting! Interesting that he flew for KLM in the immediate post war era. Our own OP, Reg Levy, of course flew (heroically as it turned out!) for Sabena. There must have been many more ex-pats flying for the newly resurrected European flag carriers in those days, given that those pre-war pilots who had survived occupation were now years out of currency. I suspect that the bureaucracy involved in those days for such employment was much less than today.

The never sleeping PPRuNe clock (nowadays at least!) has indeed clocked up one more digit for PPRuNe's most senior member. Hopefully something more personal than the computer generated greetings that the rest of us enjoy was forthcoming, or does Danny have to clock up the ton for that? At any rate, Happy Birthday Danny, you are an inspiration to us all! :ok:

[MPN11]

OMG ... I missed Danny's birthday :(

Blessings on you, Sir!

[roving]

https://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archive/past-catalogues/prices-realised.php?auction_id=323&layout=detailed&offset=720&limit=80

[Danny42C]

roving, Ian Burgess-Barker, DFCP, Chugalug and MPN11,

Thank you all, Gentlemen, for your felicitations on one more click on my taximeter ! I'm not sure I'm the Oldest Inhabitant here, and in any case: "there is no such thing as an old person - only a person who has lived long" (I think my file card has dropped down the back of some celestial filing cabinet).

I shall sip my permitted can of Guinness tonight fortified by your good wishes !

Cheers, Danny.

[Wander00]

Many happy returns, Danny. Long may your contributions continue


W

[Taphappy]

Danny

May I add my good wishes to those who have wished you a happy birthday. Great that you are still contributing to this thread in your own inimitable manner. Ad multos annos.

[Icare9]

£22,000 for the presentation silver matchbox holder (estimate £300-£400) on top of £88,000 for Reggie Reynolds medals.....
Monetary value pales into insignificance against the courage required for those low level raids against Berlin, Jena and especially Aarhus.... and the rest....
Danny, your generation, when put to the test, certainly delivered!

PS: Many Happy Returns and watch those bumps!

[roving]

For those in search of distraction from Budget boredom today, this drama documentary film created in 1945 may be of interest. It starts slowly but picks up speed as the story unfolds.

The leading participants:

Harry Alfred Rée, DSO, OBE

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Rée

Jacqueline Nearne MBE

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacqueline_Nearne

are in fact playing themselves as the SOE Agents. Add to which there is lots of brilliant footage of RAF a/c.

In the case of one of the two SOE Agents his actual operations in France were more dangerous than actually portrayed.

YsDTZKbVZiw

[roving]

Jacqueline Nearne's younger sister, Eileen Nearne MBE, who also served as a radio operator in France, was not so fortunate. She was detected whilst transmitting, captured and repeatedly tortured by the Gestapo and later in Concentration camps. However she survived (if that is the correct description for someone so psychologically damaged) the war and was cared for by Jacqueline.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eileen_Nearne

[Brian 48nav]

Belated birthday greetings - only 4 years to The Telegram!

[Danny42C]

To:

Wander00, Taphappy, Icare9, Brian 48 nav (and any other kind gentlemen who may congratulate me on my dodging the Grim Reaper one more time). Thank you all. chaps !

Danny.

[Ormeside28]

Happy Birthday Danny! Unfortunately I did not know you but we were at Valley in 1951. Not so much activity now that SAR has moved to Caernarfon and the occasional Hawk over Llandudno. They were interesting times.

[roving]

Ormeside28;

By happy coincidence the respective parents of two of my close school chums had summer retreats on the Island of Anglesey. One just down the road from Valley at Rhosneigr, overlooking the beach, the other in Moelfre close to the famous lifeboat station. I enjoyed many happy sojourns there. I watched the 1966 World Cup final in the Kinmel Arms in Moelfre. A regular at that inn was Richard Evans, the twice decorated coxswain of the RNLI.

Richard Evans - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1340835/Richard-Evans.html)

Wonderful times.

[Danny42C]

Ormeside28 (#11581),

My action-packed 18 months sojourn in Valley March '50 - Sept '51 starts here on Page 168, #3357. Three good stories are ;"The Beauty Competition"; "The Lead Soldier Man" and the trip to St.Athan to "pick up spares" (two three-tonner brake drums) in a Spitfire cockpit !) But "Search this Thread" is particularly mulish tonight, can't give Post refs.

And then there was Ann in Bangor ..... (three years before I met my late wife, I hasten to add !)

Danny.

[MPN11]

My only experience of Valley was a wonderful week of rough shooting with my departed mate Jim Gilchrist. Up hill and down dale: pigeons, pheasants, partridge, bunnies and on the beach late in the day for the incoming geese/ducks. His wife made the most wonderful mixed-game casserole!!

[Icare9]

Paddy stands up to deliver his Best man speech and starts by wishing Mick and Colleen a happy honeymoon in Wales...
Mick hisses across to Paddy "We're not going to Wales"...
"Oh" says Paddy "but you told us all at the building site you we're going to Bangor for two weeks"......

[roving]

The BBC provided a feast last night.

1. Winkle Brown's story was re-shown.

2. The re-showing of the story of the Amiens prison raid led by G/C Pickard followed.

Pickard, apart from appearing in a starring role in the 1941 documentary film "Target For Tonight', was OC of the Lysander Squadron responsible for dropping off and picking-up SoE agents into France and others.

Lewis Hodges flew with that squadron and when Peter Vaughan-Fowler pre-deceased him in 1994, he wrote his obituary published in the Independent.

Obituary: Gp Capt Peter Vaughan-Fowler | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/obituary-gp-capt-peter-vaughan-fowler-1420276.html)

These young pilots flying at night, aided only by map and compass, into enemy occupied France landing in and taking off from small fields, really were not only skilled but the bravest of the brave.

[Wander00]

Sir Lewis Hodges also gave the Eulogy at Air Vice-Marshal Sir Alan Boxer's funeral. Eye opening, hair tingling....

[roving]

I can believe it. These Tempsford "taxi drivers' were all remarkable. Clearly their shared experiences ensured that they remained a close knit community.

https://s33.postimg.org/c4l9bxqjz/Screen_Shot_2017-11-24_at_12.55.20.png (https://postimages.org/)

Pickard and pilots of 161 Special Duty Squadron: left to right Jim McCairns, Hugh Verity, P. Charles Pickard, Peter Vaughan-Fowler and Frank Rymills, 1943

Of those in this photograph, two -- Pickford and McCairns both died in Mossies. Pickard on the prison raid in 1944 and McCairns flying with the Aux A F in 1948.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_McCairns

Frank Rymils later flew in Malaya in the Emergency.

On one trip Rymills picked up an RAF air crew sergeant who had been shot down over France on his return from a raid on the Ruhr. Baling out, the sergeant had landed virtually at the feet of an SOE agent's wife who was waiting for Rymills. On his arrival, Rymills invited the sergeant to jump in. The airman simply could not believe this stroke of good fortune. After returning to base, Rymills had to walk him to the main gate where a large sign announced: Royal Air Force, Tangmere. Only then was the sergeant convinced.

http://users.tpg.com.au/berniezz/raf__special_duties_squadrons.htm

https://www.tracesofwar.com/persons/47465/Rymills-Frank-Ernest-Bunny.htm?c=aw

Hugh Verity wrote the book: "We landed by moonlight".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Verity

[PPRuNeUser0139]

The Times obituary (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/obituary-micheline-dumont-8nktdr93v) for Micheline Dumon.. aka "Michou"..
I've been privileged to meet 3 inspirational people in my life: Douglas Bader, Margaret Thatcher and "Michou".
She stood no more than 5 feet tall - yet she had courage enough for ten men and some to spare.
RIP "Michou".

For those unable to access The Times, here's her obituary:

Micheline Dumon
Wartime Resistance agent who was awarded the George Medal after helping hundreds of Allied servicemen escape down the Comet Line
Micheline Dumon looked across the restaurant table at her Resistance comrade as he outlined his plans for the “Comet Line”, the network that repatriated stranded Allied servicemen. She knew him as Pierre Boulain, and there were several more noms de guerre, but she suddenly realised that she knew his true identity. He was Jacques Desoubrie, a double agent working for the Gestapo.
She was careful not to let him know that she had recognised him, and in any case she had to leave to escort two servicemen south to the Pyrenees. She was at a safe house in Bayonne near the Spanish border a short while later with another stalwart of the Comet Line, Elvire de Greef — code name “Tante Go” — when she heard that there had been more of the arrests and killings that had so badly hampered their work.
“I am going back to Paris,” she told De Greef. “There is a traitor in the line and I am going to find out who it is.”
Her way of confirming the traitor’s identity was typically direct. The Americans had bombed the railway, and when she phoned her contacts to say that she would be late arriving, a strange voice answered. She had been expecting to hear the voice of her friend and comrade, a dentist named Martine.
Realising that Martine must have been one of those arrested, Dumon went straight to the notorious Fresnes prison on the outskirts of Paris and stood outside the women’s wing, shouting: “Martine! Martine!” Eventually there came a shout. It was the dentist. “Who betrayed you?” asked Dumon. “It was Pierre! Pierre Boulain!” Martine yelled back. As Dumon had feared, Desoubrie had been hard at work.
She told other Comet Line agents, who refused to believe that Boulain could be the traitor, so she decided to follow him to make sure. However, as she tailed him through the city he spotted her. The hunter became the hunted as Desoubrie gave chase. She walked quickly to the nearest station and slipped aboard a train. She was safe — for a while.
Dumon hurried down to Bayonne and warned De Greef that the Line was compromised, saving her comrade’s life and preserving the southern network intact. However, Dumon was compromised, and the Allies wanted her in London. After much debate De Greef persuaded her to cross the Pyrenees for the last time. For Dumon, known as “Michou” and code-named “Lily” , the war was over.
She was 5ft tall, spoke in a soft, childish voice and looked no more than 15
She had personally escorted at least 150 airmen to safety in Spain, and the Comet Line and similar operations were able to get about 5,000 servicemen back to Britain. There were more than 1,000 Comet Line agents in all. The average time between joining up and being arrested was said to be three months. Their exploits inspired the Seventies TV series Secret Army.
Desoubrie fled to Germany, but was eventually executed in 1949, having been denounced by a former lover.
Only 5ft tall, but with a sturdy frame, Dumon “spoke in a soft, childish voice”, according to Airey Neave, an army officer working for British intelligence who debriefed her in London and later wrote a book about the Comet Line. “Her face was round and artless. She looked no more than 15, an advantage that she used to the full.” By then Dumon was 23.

[PPRuNeUser0139]

Her US Intelligence file was a testament to her resourcefulness. At least 50 times, the file records, she “outwitted the German agents by suddenly enacting a tender, tearful love scene in a streetcar or on a station platform with some airman she had only known for an hour or two. Encountering such a scene, the embarrassed German agent would pass on and ask no questions.”
The Gestapo worked out her identity, but still she evaded capture. On one occasion, her file notes, “she suddenly became suspicious of an aviator she had gone to pick up. To test him before revealing herself, she used the latest slang she had learnt from other aviators . . . his bewilderment in the face of the slang word convinced her that she was dealing with a German agent.”
She was lucky to escape capture, she said, but as George Watt, the author of The Comet Connection: Escape from Hitler’s Europe, observed, she “added to her luck with cleverness, cool-headedness, self-discipline and total dedication”. She was, in fact, arrested on one occasion, but was held for only two days. “The commandant thought I was too young [to be Dumon], so he let me go before the Gestapo came to take me.”
The “Réseau Comète”, or Comet Line, had been set up in 1941 by Andrée de Jongh, a young woman whose heroine was Edith Cavell, the nurse shot for helping Allied soldiers escape from Belgium during the First World War. Comet Line agents combed the country looking for airmen who had been shot down or forced to land. They would be taken from one safe house to another to stay one step ahead of the Gestapo.
The whole Dumon family became involved in the operation. Micheline and her younger sister had been raised in the Belgian Congo, where their father, Eugene, was a doctor. The family had returned to Belgium so Micheline could train as a nurse.
Eugene agreed to hide two airmen, and from then on the girls’ mother, Françoise, as well as Micheline’s sister, Andrée, whose code name was “Nadine”, became involved. “Nadine” smuggled more than 20 airmen out of Belgium, but in August 1942 she and her parents were betrayed and arrested.
The Gestapo thought they had the whole family, but by a stroke of luck Micheline was not included on their ration-stamp list and was not at home when the German agents called. She asked for permission to write to and visit her parents. “These are not your parents,” she was told. “We arrested the entire family.”
Undaunted, she offered her services to De Jongh. She helped photographers putting together false documents, organised safe houses and ferried food and clothing between them.
She went around Brussels on her bicycle, delivering messages, doling out money to the owners of safe houses and checking on the progress of operations, all the while looking and acting like a 15-year-old.
The Comet Line suffered repeated infiltrations and in January 1943 De Jongh was arrested. Dumon stepped up. Four months later two German spies posing as US pilots penetrated the organisation and there were more arrests. “It was too dangerous for me to remain in my nursing job,” Dumon recalled. “I went underground and worked full-time for the airmen.”

[PPRuNeUser0139]

When she got to London in 1944 she was debriefed and earmarked to join the “Retrievers”, a unit working to repatriate airmen left behind. As the Allies were advancing towards Berlin, her services were not needed.
A paratrooper, Pierre Ugeux, had been designated as her “minder”. They fell in love and later married, settling in Avignon in the south of France. The couple had three children: Guy, who went on to work in the car industry, Nicole and Brigitte. They also had an adopted son called Stefan, who predeceased them.
Pierre, who died in 2009, became an important figure in Belgium’s power industries. He also rose to become the head of CSI, the forerunner of the FIA as the governing body of Formula One motor racing in the Seventies. The couple would often stand lunch for the then impoverished team owner Bernie Ecclestone.
According to Pamela Pearch, a friend of Dumon, the former Resistance leader was just settling down to watch a motor race when she last spoke to her in October.
As for Dumon’s family, her mother was released after 13 months, but her father died in Silesia towards the end of the war. Her sister, Andrée, was freed in poor health, but had survived the Ravensbrück and Mauthausen concentration camps.
Micheline settled into married life and became an active fundraiser for the families of Comet Line agents who had died during the war. She was also a member of the RAF Escaping Society, and with her sister opened an extension to its museum in East Kirkby, Lincolnshire, in 1996.
Britain awarded her the George Medal. She also received the Golden Medal of Freedom from the US.
Interviewed late in her life, she still had a “straight-backed dignity — hair, greying; face, youthful . . . she talked of the most traumatic experiences in a soft, gentle voice”.
Aline Micheline Dumon, Resistance agent, was born on May 20, 1921. She died of undisclosed causes on November 16, 2017, aged 96

[Wander00]

That there are such people......

[Icare9]

The couple would often stand lunch for the then impoverished team owner Bernie Ecclestone. In other circumstances, I'd make a barbed remark, but....

RIP Michou, there's plenty of friends up there to stand lunch (and a few drinks) for you...

I'm almost ashamed to say it, but I can only just recall "Secret Army" but the terror and life under the Nazis came across from what I remember.

[Chugalug2]

Thank you sidevalve for so comprehensively telling us of Michou. We rightly celebrate our homegrown wartime heroes but this young girl's deeds must surely match those of any other. Standing outside a Nazi prison yelling a name until she is answered and then demanding the name of the betrayer, what was she thinking of? Certainly not of herself but rather of her colleagues and their aircrew charges. As Wander00 rightly comments, even by the standards of the wartime generation; such a sense of duty, such cold courage, such people indeed!

RIP Madame, you are an example to us all that tyranny must always be faced up to and never ever appeased.

[PPRuNeUser0139]

I turned up this interview (http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/80033409) with George Duffee (previously mentioned here (http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/329990-gaining-r-f-pilots-brevet-ww-ii-551.html#post9835734)) recorded for the Imperial War Museum. During it - at 13:30 - he talks about making contact with the Comet Line and "Michou".

Michou's life was recalled last night on BBC World Service (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w172vspc4j201n5) - at 17:36..

[ricardian]

roving, Ian Burgess-Barker, DFCP, Chugalug and MPN11,
Thank you all, Gentlemen, for your felicitations on one more click on my taximeter ! I'm not sure I'm the Oldest Inhabitant here, and in any case: "there is no such thing as an old person - only a person who has lived long" (I think my file card has dropped down the back of some celestial filing cabinet).
I shall sip my permitted can of Guinness tonight fortified by your good wishes !
Cheers, Danny.

Belated birthday greetings to you, sir.
Inside every pensioner is a teenager wondering what the hell happened!

[roving]

The Telegraph has posted the Obituary of AVM David Emmerson. Yet no-one who served with him has commented about his passing on pprune.

Air Force Cross
Wing Commander David EMMERSON 4230086, Royal Air
Force.
Wing Commander Emmerson commands No 206 Squadron
based at Royal Air Force Kinloss. Between 21st April 1982 and
6th June 1982, he was detached to Ascension Island to command
a force of Nimrod aircraft deployed in support of Operation CORPORATE.
On arrival at Ascension, Wing Commander Emmerson
found little in the way of a support organisation. However, during
his period in command the detachment doubled in size, an air-to-air
refuelling capability was introduced for Nimrod aircraft to
operate both within the Total Exclusion Zone and close to the
Argentinian coast, and new weapons including air-to-air missiles
were received into service. Throughout the period of expansion
Wing Commander Emmerson displayed exceptional zeal and
patience over long hours of abnormally demanding duties. He not
only prepared his crews for operations close to the Argentinian
coast and within range of fighter aircraft, but also displayed exceptional
leadership and a great sense of courage by captaining each
sortie which broke new ground as new equipments, capabilities
and techniques were introduced. He never tasked a crew to fly
an operation which he himself had not already flown and he displayed
outstanding leadership and skill in completing each mission
successfully regardless of the potential risks to his aircraft and
crew. In the course of ten operational sorties Wing Commander
Emmerson was captain of the Nimrod which supported the first
Vulcan attack on Port Stanley Airfield on 1st May. He led the first
crew to operate within air defence radar and fighter range of the
Argentinian bases of Puerto Belgrano and Commodore Rivadavia.
The latter sortie was conducted in daylight in an environment
of a. considerable risk to aircraft and crew. Another of his operational
sorties was to provide surface surveillance in support of
Task Groups overnight on 20th/21st May to cover the amphibious
landings on East Falkland involving a flight of 19 hours and 7200
nautical miles. Throughout the period of the Falkland campaign,
Wing Commander Emmerson displayed courage and coolness
which were a magnificent example to others. While proving himself
an outstanding leader of his crews through personal example, unselfish
determination and skill he ensured the achievement of the
military aims of his Commander in the employment of the Nimrod.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/49134/supplement/12855/data.pdf

[olympus]

Slight thread drift but interestingly, the previous London Gazette page shows the citations for the awards to W/Cdr Squire, S/Ldr Pook and others for their bravery during the campaign to recover the Falklands.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/49134/supplement/12854/data.pdf

[Wander00]

Both Pete Squire and Jerry Pook were an entry behind me at the Towers - they were both 89A, along with Russ Pengelly ( sadly lost test flying Tornado). It was an outstanding Entry/Squadron, producing ISTR four or five 3 star officers or above from the 12 cadets in 89A. "Black" Robertson was one of them. I think my Entry produced a handful of gp capts and an air commodore out of the 48 in the Entry

[roving]

89A (http://www.89entry.co.uk/89a.htm)

[Wander00]

Roving - that takes me back. A great bunch of guys

[Union Jack]

VMT to Olympus for his very interesting thread drift drawing attention to these most impressive citations, which I had not seen previously. BZs all round to these brave men.

Continuing the thread drift, I had to allow myself a smile at the placing of the words "with unabated zeal" in the phrase in the then Wing Commander Squire's citation, namely:

"......but he continued flying after his return to the ship with unabated zeal."

Jack

[megan]

A very much belated Happy Birthday Danny. A Vultee story as a present, re Bob Hoover's experience.When testing a Vultee Vengeance, he lowered the gear and reduced the throttle and flames spewed out. Opening the throttle caused the flames to disappear so he climbed for height in case they had to bail out. When he closed the throttle again there was an explosion which blew off the bomb bay doors.

​With flames burning his legs he told the sergeant in the back seat to jump. He was reluctant to go but the flames finally convinced him and he climbed out. His harness snagged the machine gun mounting and he hung there, banging against the side of the fuselage. Hoover rolled the Vengeance inverted, managed to shake off the sergeant and switched off the engine. The flames subsided and he made dead-stick landing.

[roving]

Yesterday the Guardian posted an excellent obituary of Joy Lofthouse.


Joy Lofthouse obituary
Pilot whose role during the second world war was to fly military planes between air bases for the Air Transport Auxiliary

As a flying member of the female section of the Air Transport Auxiliary, Joy Lofthouse was one of the women styled Attagirls, working on pay rates equal to those of the men.

In 1943 Joy Lofthouse, a 20-year-old bank cashier, replied to an advertisement she had seen in the Aeroplane magazine. It was for women to train for the Air Transport Auxiliary (ATA), and although the competition was intense her application was successful. As a result she went on to become one of 164 female pilots during the second world war who were given the important job of ferrying military planes around the UK from one air base to another.

Lofthouse, who has died aged 94, showed great aptitude for flying. Her first solo flight was in a Miles Magister, an open, low-winged monoplane. After qualifying, her initial work focused on delivering Magisters and Tiger Moth biplanes to flying schools. Later she moved on to fighter planes, including Spitfires.

She was born Joyce Gough, always known as Joy, in Cirencester, Gloucestershire. Her father was a professional footballer who later became a hairdresser, and her mother was a dressmaker. Educated at Cirencester grammar school, both Joy and her older sister, Yvonne, were dedicated to sport in general and to tennis in particular. Joy began working in the local Lloyds bank just as war broke out.

But she had greater ambitions than to be a cashier, and sought inspiration in the pages of the Aeroplane magazine, the journal whose then editor had proclaimed that “the menace is the woman who thinks she ought to be flying a high-speed bomber when she really has not the intelligence to scrub the floor of a hospital properly”.

When Joy applied to the ATA she had no idea that Yvonne had also put in an application, just before her. Both were successful and served together until the end of the war.

As a flying member of the female section of the ATA – which also had 1,153 men in its employ – Lofthouse was one of what the press liked to call the Attagirls, working on pay rates equal to those of the men. That there was a women’s section and that it attracted pilots from around the world was substantially due to the efforts, before and during the war, of their senior commander, Pauline Gower. The pilots’ work expanded rapidly from the transport of medical supplies and personnel to ferrying fighters and bombers to bases around the country. For Lofthouse this meant a posting to Hamble, near Southampton, in 1944.

Alongside workaday aircraft she also flew more spectacular machines. There were Hawker Tempest Vs, North American Mustangs and Supermarine Spitfires, all 400mph fighters. She flew a total of 18 types of aircraft – relying on a map and the view out of the cockpit for navigation – but the Spitfire was her enduring favourite.

By 1945 she completed training for twin-engined planes, only to quit the ATA after the end of the war; it was wound up that November.

In 1946 EC Cheeseman’s book, Brief Glory: The Story of ATA, was published, listing, on page 230, “Third Officer Gough, Joyce, Miss”. But jobs for women pilots were then practically nonexistent, and she had to turn to other things.

After the war she married Jiri Hartman, a Czech Spitfire pilot whom she had first encountered while working at Lloyds. The marriage ended in divorce in 1966. Two years later, while training to become a teacher in Portsmouth, she met Charles Lofthouse, a former bomber pilot who had been held at Stalag Luft III prison camp in what is now Poland, where he had worked on preparations for the 1944 Great Escape. They married in 1971, by which time he was a headteacher and she was teaching children with special needs.

It was only towards the end of the 20th century that the scale of the achievement of women such as Lofthouse began to be appreciated. Throughout her life she retained her links with her former female comrades in the ATA and attended many reunions. In 1990 she met young women aspiring to be RAF pilots at Biggin Hill, and in 2008 she was a recipient of a commemorative badge for the Attagirls issued by the government. She was also a patron of the Fly2Help charity, which encourages young people to take up flying. In 2015, at Goodwood in Sussex, she took to the air in a (dual-control) Spitfire for the first time in 70 years.

She and Charles retired to Cirencester. He died in 2002. She is survived by a son, Peter, and a daughter, Lyn, from her first marriage, and a grandson. Another son from that marriage, Michael, died in 2008.

• Joy Lofthouse, pilot, born 14 February 1923; died 15 November 2017

[Danny42C]

megan (#11603),

Thanks for the kind wishes ! Could you give me a steer to this Bob Hoover, please ? (book, publishers & ISBN; PPRuNe Post references etc, so I can go after them). There is little written on the VV (this one would've been RAAF, I take it).

Difficult to diagnose that problem from the symptons.

Cheers, Danny.

[ricardian]

Seen on an RAF-related Facebook page today, may be of interest to Danny:

80 years ago today, possibly the ugliest combat aircraft the RAF ever had in service, made its first flight.
The Brewster Buffalo was built by the American "Brewster Aeronautical Corporation" and operated by 5 RAF squadrons, 7 FAA squadrons, as well as 8 RAAF squadrons an 2 RNZAF squadrons. This was despite the original A&AEE assessment of the aircraft considering it to have inadequate armament and armour, poor high-altitude performance, engine overheating, maintenance issues, and poor cockpit controls, although it had good handling, cockpit space, and visibility; it was considered unfit for duty in western Europe. But we were desperate enough to buy them anyway and send them to the pacific, where they were provided to pilots who weren't properly trained to fly them either.
In Malaya, 60 were lost in combat, 40 on the ground, 20 more in accidents. Despite this however the Buffalo force did manage to shoot down about 80 enemy aircraft, mostly bombers.
In Burma 67sqn operating Buffalos shot down 27 Japanese aircraft for 8 losses.
The type has a reputation as being a poor aircraft, but in reality it did pretty well. Of 509 aircraft produced, 40 aces were born. In Finland, where they operated the type against Russian fighters, the Finns scored a kill:loss ratio of somewhere between 20 and 35:1. The US Marine Corps also operated them early in the war successfully, before mostly relegating them to advanced trainer duties.
The main reason for its poor reputation was probably because of its record in Allied hands against the Mitsubishi Zero, which was far better than anybody ever expected it to be. There are no RAF Buffalos left anywhere in the world, but a few foreign ones in museum.

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/24174266_1963431647240999_4160988819248662001_n.jpg?oh=beb60 af404bc52d8cf04920fcb606855&oe=5ACC377A

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

Danny yr 11605 - just google Bob Hoover (if you havn't already) one of Americas finest flyers, died just last year, his air displays and his WW2 exploits should never be forgotten - and a real 'gent' I am told by those who knew him.

Ian BB

[Danny42C]

ricardian (#11606), Ta !

From what we heard out there at the time (!942): We had a squadron of Buffalo in Malaya when Admiral Phillips in his flagship "Prince of Wales" broke radio silence to advise Singapore that his ship had been attacked by Jap torpedo bombers, badly damaged, and was returning there at 1½ kts on one shaft, and asked for a tug to help.

As it was almost certain that the Japs would come back to finish the job, you would expect AHQ Singapore to order air cover for the crippled ship, but they dallied: it was left to the (acting) C.O. of the Buffalo squadron (Flt Lt Tim Vigors?), to recognise the danger and (on his own authority) to launch. But the delay had been fatal: before the Buffalo reached the position the Japs had been back, the ship was on the bottom, and 1,200 men lost (inc Phillips).

I would not be surprised if the official account differs to a certain extent.

Cheers, Danny.

[Danny42C]

megan (my #11603), and Ian B-B (#11608),

Thanks, Ian !
Googled; Brazilian River has on current offer:

"Forever Flying"; "Passion for Flight"; "La Vie Fantastique de Bob Hoover" (I read French with fair ease).

Any idea where the Vengeance quotation appears ? (sorry to be such a persistent nuisance).

Danny.

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

Danny yr. 11609

"Any idea where the Vengeance quotation appears"?

The incident happened (I think) at a field near Oran early 1943. Bob was test flying anything and everything that came out of the packing cases (so it was probably the first time he had met a VV).

Try googling Bob Hoover/Vultee Vengeance and read the <airportjournals.com> articles. It is certainly recounted in the Bob Hoover chapter of "In Defence of Freedom" by Wolfgang W E Samuel.

IanBB

PS Hoover’s childhood hero, Jimmy Doolittle, once called him “the greatest stick and rudder man who ever lived.”

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

PPS Have you come across this one Danny?

The following is from Peter Smith's website about his book about the Vengeance:

VENGEANCE! The Vultee Vengeance dive bomber.

H/B (1) 1986 (ISBN 0 0906393 65 3) H/B (2) USA Edition 1986 (ISBN 0 -87474 866 6)

The true story of the forgotten dive bomber of the RAF - the American-built Vultee Vengeance. This aircraft was built in the USA but served in the combat role with the RAF and Indian Air Force in Burma, with the French air force in North Africa and with the Royal Australian Air Force in the Pacific. With a feast of new facts and many rare and previously unpublished photos this is the complete history of this aircraft, unjustly derided by many "historians" who do not know the full facts, and subject to many myths which still persist today, the design, construction, and war history of this unique aircraft is given in full with a host of tables and appendices.

Seldom has the RAF possessed a more accurate bombing platform, yet seldom has that aircraft been so misrepresented in print and history. For the first time the men who designed the aircraft and who flew her in combat were interviewed and talked to the Author at length. The still-repeated fable that the Vengeance only operated with fighter cover is demolished totally, in fact they hardly ever had fighter cover at all due to the ranges at which they operated. Totally ignored by air historians of the Imphal and Kohima battles the Vengeance was in fact the most important and successful of the air weapons which broke the Japanese sieges in those battles. Their precision bombing of vital supply bridges was legendary, yet has been totally omitted in the air histories of the air campaigns in Burma. The author offers reasons why this policy was adopted at the time, as revealed in official documents, and questions why it still persists today when historians should know better.

"Peter Smith, the author, has done a handsome job in bringing the story of the Vengeance to the fore. This is first-rate reference material", stated the Aviation News, while Aircraft Illustrated added: "The exhaustive research of the author has paid dividends...he succeeds in portraying the true image of this much maligned aircraft."

[megan]

Got it from here Danny. No nuisance at all, a pleasure to correspond.

Bob Hoover (http://www.a-e-g.org.uk/bob-hoover.html)

The link suggested by Ian

http://airportjournals.com/?s=hoover

His Wiki entry

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Hoover

A couple of videos of him at work

V9pvG_ZSnCc

g7R7jZmliGc

[Danny42C]

megan (#11612),

Thanks ! What can I say ? Trained in the States (Arnold Scheme), in contact with Americans most of the War, and on PPRuNe for the last five years - and this is the first I've heard of Bob Hoover ! Reading all the references you gave, I was increasingly stupefied by this chap's flying story. What a man ! We shall not see his like again. .... RIP, Bob.

The Vengeance incident was with the French in Oran - Agadir (?), therefore a Mk.IV (US A-35). But the Vengeance illustrated is a 12 (?) Sqn RAAF Mk.I or II (US A-31). These were the only Marks which saw action in WWII with the RAF, IAF and RAAF. I have no experience on or knowledge of the IV (A-35), but it differed externally only in the substitution of a single 0.50 rear Browning for the other Marks' twin 0.303s (and the wing AoI set at +4° instead of the zero on all earlier Marks - the zero shows up well on NH-L - although it it is hard to be sure from photographs).

As they all looked alike, the RAF called them all Vengeances, which has led to some confusion. For example, "Winkle" Brown tested both the Stuka and the VV, concluding that the former was more stable in a vertical dive (which only the VV was designed for). Explanation ? (suggested by Chugalug): He was almost certainly given a MK.IV to test: the increased AoI would be likely to make it a better aircraft, but a worse dive bomber. In fact, all Mks I-III dived beautifully - but were useless for anything else. It is possible that the fuel system was changed in the Mk.IV: I have never heard the like of an engine fire such as that described. Can anyone suggest an explanation ?

Ian B-B (#11611),

I know that Peter C. Smith's new (2nd) edition of his 1986 "Vengeance!" is on the stocks (or has it already been published ?) as we have corresponded about it. But it is hard to see what else there is to say now about this forgotten relic of WWII.

Cheers and renewed thanks, both, Danny.

[Danny42C]

Poached from Jet Blast, but y'all might to take a look:

Post Starter Loose rivets: A LOT of things I never knew about the Concorde crash. ( 1 2 3 4)

Danny42C.

''''''''''''''''''''''

Senior Pilot,

Sorry - dunno what happened ! Here it is:<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqOcYhzWUZY>

Danny.

[roving]

Poached from Jet Blast, but y'all might to take a look:

Post Starter Loose rivets: A LOT of things I never knew about the Concorde crash. ( 1 2 3 4) <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqOcYhzWUZY>

Danny42C.

Thanks, yes I had seen that before. He is quite poisonous about the French.

[Wander00]

Roving reading that it seems he might have been justified in his views

[roving]

Roving reading that it seems he might have been justified in his views

I have the highest regard for him and his case is pretty compelling.

[Chugalug2]

Like most aviation tragedies, this one has the stench of cheese about it. Gruyere, at a guess.

Edited to add that I've just caught the tail end of Document on R4, which no doubt will be available on iPlayer. Beeb blurb:-

Document

The Gibraltar Diary of Squadron Leader Mallory

Nick Rankin examines a detailed document, written in French and discovered in the wartime files of the Iberia Section of S.O.E., the Special Operations Executive. This personal account by Squadron-Leader Hugh Mallory Falconer tells how he established a secret wireless network covering the Western Mediterranean and linking Gibraltar with North African cities including Casablanca, Tangier and Oran. This network not only helped pave the way for Operation TORCH, the Anglo-American invasion of Vichy French North Africa in November 1942, but when the US armed forces went into combat, it was Falconer's radio network that held up when the other Allied communications systems failed. For three days in was the low level radio post housed in a cave in the Rock of Gibraltar that kept the Allied Commander Eisenhower in touch with his ground forces. In an increasingly challenging situation Mallory's network helped ensure this pivotal moment in the war did not turn into a disaster. Later in the North Africa campaign, Falconer was captured by the Germans on an S.O.E. mission in Tunisia and was held in a variety of prisoner of war camps until he was liberated in 1945.
Nick talks to historians of the period, operators who explain the challenges and brilliance of the S.O.E. operatives and he tracks down Falconer's daughter who has her own recollections of her father's wartime exploits. She had no idea that Downing Street, in a memo of 19th May 1943 had described the work of Mallory and his team in glowing terms. 'It is abundantly clear that the operators handling the signals... were as essential to the operations as the organ blower to the cathedral organist.'
Producer: Tom Alban.

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

roving

I see that you have clocked up another year - many happy returns!

Ian BB

[John Eacott]

Danny et al,

Just a note to let you know that Dad died last Thursday, the Memorial Service will be this coming Friday 8th December in Mt Martha on the Mornington Peninsular. He had a great life and influenced all those who were lucky enough to meet him.

Thanks for letting him into this thread, I know he enjoyed reading it and posting his reminiscences as Walter603.

Cheers, Dad, and farewell.

[Danny42C]

roving,

Hear, hear ! - and many of 'em !

Danny.

[Danny42C]

John,

So sorry - may he rest in peace. Will be at his Memorial Service in spirit.

Danny.

[MPN11]

Sad news, John. My condolences to you and family.

I would raise a glass on Friday, but I'm not supposed to drink alcohol with my present medication ... so water will have to suffice.

[Geriaviator]

Our sympathies to the Eacott family on the passing of Walter603, whose Beaufighter experiences kept us enthralled for many weeks. Few pilots can have survived a ditching in this notoriously tricky aircraft; I am sure we are all thankful that he did, and was able to enjoy such a long and happy life with his family. It was a privilege to have "met" him on this great thread.

[roving]

John

My condolences to you and your family.

We not only share the same age, but can both proud that our respective fathers served as Royal Air Force pilots in the Middle East/Med during WWII. There are other post war baby boomers who post here too who are also sons of WWII aircrew.

I know that your father was a POW for three years and on being being repatriated at the end of the War discovered that your grandmother had been killed by a V1 (or was it V2) rocket.

The suffering borne with such fortitude and the bravery in the face of the enemy not just for the duration of a short campaign, but over a period of years, marks out that generation who served in WWII, and their parents, as truly remarkable.

[roving]

Ian & Danny thanks you for your best wishes, however I am still a teenager at heart living in denial about the passing of the years.

Perhaps Danny if I could stay at the crease long enough to get a decent score as you have so remarkably achieved, I might celebrate these anniversaries.

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

John

Sincere condolences to you and yours. As Geriaviator says above, it was indeed a privilege for all of us to read his story here.

Best Wishes
Ian BB

[Icare9]

The one really sad aspect of this thread is that the participants in Round 2 are preparing for that final takeoff all too soon and too many.....
It is a corollary of this thread that what they (and the countless thousands who would have had as good or better yarns) did that we are in awe of and honour.
That they did talk of those times (and so eloquently) ensures that they and their comrades live on.
Were we still on holiday at Main Ridge we would have been there at the Uniting Church and wish Dad "God Speed"and a few beers in the bar in the sky.
I hope the RAAF see this thread and may arrange a "Farewell" training exercise of their own.....

[Chugalug2]

John Eacott:-
Just a note to let you know that Dad died last Thursday, the Memorial Service will be this coming Friday 8th December in Mt Martha on the Mornington Peninsular.

My sincere condolences on the loss of your father. As Walter603 he brought direct testimony of the dangers and challenges of being a WWII pilot to this thread that is dedicated to his ilk. Most importantly he reminded us of the tremendous debt owed by my country and the liberated nations of Europe, and the Middle and Far East, to the Dominions and Colonies of the British Empire. Politics move on, but Remembrance is forever.

Rest in Peace, Sir.

[Union Jack]

So. sorry to hear the sad news, John and please accept my condolences. I really enjoyed my exchange of PMs with your father, and can only applaud the sentiments so eloquently and meaningfully expressed by Chugalug.

Jack

[John Eacott]

Thanks for all the good wishes, there will be a wee dram or two tomorrow in his memory.

Anyone wanting a full copy of his pre war and wartime story, download here: http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/8171-1/Walter+WW2_doc.pdf

[roving]

Thanks for all the good wishes, there will be a wee dram or two tomorrow in his memory.

Anyone wanting a full copy of his pre war and wartime story, download here: http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/8171-1/Walter+WW2_doc.pdf

Which I have just spent a very enjoyable two hours reading. Amazing that your dad swapped lives with a British soldier to try and escape. I wonder whether the soldier enjoyed life as a commissioned RAF Officer POW after your promotion was Gazetted or did that all unravel?

[mikehallam]

Thread's having a breather by the look of it Danny,

Regarding your 'preferred' a/c - the Spitfire, and reflecting back to my Pilot learning days in 1970 at Shoreham, to see one fly by was a rare & thrilling noise event.

Nowadays those of us in the Goodwood area, or in my case holidaying on the western tip of the Isle of Wight, are regularly treated to their fly bys.
The Goodwood based Spitfires, doubtless supported by funds contributed by deep pocketed pax punters have brought them more actively back into our skies.

Who knows, when Brexit is finally in place we'll need them on stand-by once more, so don't hang up your helmet yet Danny.

Happy Christmas,

mike hallam

[Danny42C]

Mike (#11633),

Yes, it is true that this, "our" Thread, and IMHO the Prince of All Threads in the Forum, has its somnolent periods - but that holds true for the aged in general ! So far, it has always awakened refreshed after its "naps", and long may this continue.

Looked up the Goodwood Spitfires, seems they are all the Mk.IX (T)s: never having flown in one (and no desire to), can't help feeling that a lot of the Spitfire handling must have been lost with the added weight and aft movement of the CoG caused by the second cockpit (yes, I know the front has been moved forward 19 [?] in to compensate, but even so .... and what have they done with the fuel tanks ?)

So, even if it were physically possible (which it ain't), would not pay an arm + leg to the operators for a ride in a thing which looks like a Spitfire, but doesn't feel like one. But the "Merlin Song" will be as sweet as ever. As an engineer, you'll know that the "snarl" comes from the shock waves of the supersonic gases from the open exhausts.

Some six years ago I wrote this paean of praise here (in 1942 I finished my OTU on Mks I and II at Hawarden):

..."My three summer months with the Spitfires came to an end. I count myself lucky to have had the chance to fly them, and even more to have flown the earliest (and therefore lightest) Marks of that incomparable aircraft. They were not as fast, or could not fly so high, or were not so heavily armed as later Marks, but they were nicer. The "Spit" was simply the most enjoyable aircraft to fly of all time. In memory I liken it to riding (or rather freewheeling) a bike in three dimensions. You just had to think about going round a corner, and round you went!

In later years I would put in around 140 hours on the Mk XVI (which was basically a Mk IX with the US "Packard" Merlin, and no worse for that), and another dozen on the Mks XIV and XXII. These last two I disliked, but no doubt, with more time, I may have learned to love. The Spitfire remained in Squadron service at least till 1951. But:-"They never could recapture / That first fine careless rapture"...

'Fraid my helmet (old style leather), handed in at Weston Zoyland 1954, is no more - but my "Bates" Cap SD still hangs around the house - the womenfolk haven't the heart to chuck it out!

All the Compliments of the Season to you and yours,

Danny.

[Olympia 463]

@Danny42C
Merlins came in many flavours - Derby, Hillington, Halewood, and the Packards. In my time as a graduate apprentice at Hillington we were still repairing them and developing them. I designed and tested roller rocker gear to get over the camshaft wear problem which limited the overhaul life. Never went into production though - too late. Just for fun, one day we decided to see if the supercharger off a Packard would fit one of our UK engines. Two dowels located it, and wonder of wonders we offered up the supercharger to the engine and the dowels went perfectly into the holes. Mind you I think R-R sent a complete set of jigs and fixtures to the USA to be used as templates.

When production ceased, the Americans shipped hundreds of engines to Hillington which sat in their packing cases in the car park. The bosses decided to scrap the engines but sell off the empty cases (made a good garden shed). One of my colleagues bought one (ten bob if I remember rightly) but when he opened it there was a Packard Merlin still inside! - red faces all round. Wonder what that would be worth today.

[Geriaviator]

My favourite Merlin story relates to wartime outsourcing, when Ford was asked to produce the engines at Dagenham. RR is said to have been rather condescending when Ford came back with queries on dimensions and tolerances which they said were not tight enough for Ford production methods. If they produced 10,000 spare parts, as they often did, each one had to fit every car that left the production line as perfectly as the original.

Ford went on to produce 20,000 Merlin engines, and not one failed its acceptance tests.

[roving]

Olympia 463

In 1950 when my dad was flying with an Aux Air Squadron based at Ringway, it converted from Spitfires to Vampires. Some months later this Civil Servant asked for directions to the hanger where the Spitfires were being stored. My dad walked him over. Once inside he looked at my dad wistfully and said I have to scrap all of these.

I wonder what they would have been worth if they had been preserved.

[Danny42C]

roving,

I think the going rate for an airworthy Spitfire is around £ million. Mind you, a hangar-full would flood the market !

I believe, at war's end, they were going for £75 or less each. Why didn't I buy a couple with my gratuity ?

Danny.

[Olympia 463]

Geriaviator

It wasn't at Dagenham that Ford built Merlins (nor was it Halewood - my mistake). The shadow factory was specially built in Manchester. The Manchester men came to Derby and said they could only work to closer tolerances than R-R. R-R then said they would need to redraw all the relevant parts themselves and this they duly did! Manchester engines were made at the rate of 400 per week (!) with a total production of 30,428 No engines were ever made at Dagenham. For more detail see Peter Pugh's monumental Magic of a Name Vol1 page 227.

[Icare9]

Geriaviator and Olympia: You may have solved a question that has lurked in the back of my mind for many years!
My first wife's father had worked as a draughtsman for Rolls Royce and said he "worked on the Merlin". I first knew them in Southend, when her dad was now employed at Ford's Dagenham plant. I'd always wondered how he came to move from RR to Ford's and I think I now have a valid explanation.
Too late for F-i-L as some young drunk driver did for him in '76...
Proves you do learn something new every day!

[Olympia 463]

Icare9

And you may have also cleared up where the redesign work was done! Hillington did not do main stream engine design, and I don't suppose Manchester did either. So the DO work must have been done at Dagenham where your father worked. The experimental shop in Hillington had a very small drawing office (where I did my roller rocker scheme) but any major work other than jigs and fixtures was done at Derby. The work I did at Hillington got me transferred to Derby in 1956 as an aircraft engine designer on the Conway. A month before I was due to be called up! I got permanent deferment out of that,and I had three happy years on the Conway.

I didn't want to be deferred, but I didn't have an option to refuse. I had applied to join GUAS in my first year at Uni but there were more takers than slots. I did pass all the tests and medicals however, and they gave me a chit which would have got me straight into a three year commission in the GD. I did learn to fly later as a glider pilot, and became an instructor. The RAF's loss maybe? Maybe I got more flying though - 2200 sorties and 1000+hrs in 22 different types. I doubt the RAF could have provided that.

[sycamore]

O-463, think you`ll find that a lot of rebuilt Merlins have roller rockers now,especially from the US....

[Olympia 463]

Well I'm glad to hear that. The camshaft/rocker wear was the reason so many cylinder blocks needed changing before any other part of the engine was seriously worn. Who was doing the rebuilding and why?

One of my jobs when I was a piston engine performance engineer at R-R in the mid fifties was redesigning the supercharger quill drive to allow Merlins to be used for hydroplane racing on the great lakes in Canada. When the prop came out of the water during a sharp turn at a buoy the engine went to full overspeed RPM and seconds later back to 1500 as the prop re entered the water. The quill shafts were too flimsy for that kind of trick and soon broke. I came up with a much fatter one which fixed that problem. We never heard how they kept the water out of the supercharger intake though.

[sycamore]

O-463,you might `google`,Masters of the V12`,or Dwight Thorne,Mike Nixon,Dave Zeuschel,or Vintage V12s; You might be surprised that some of the Reno racers are running up to 150 inches/60lbs boost/3000+hp....think they also add `IrnBru` as well.....

[mmitch]

Slight diversion, Kermit Weeks visits Mike Nixon's Vintage V12s. The video is in 3 parts two have been posted so far. 16 Merlins in the workshop and a warehouse full waiting their turn! They show the differences between Merlins and Allisons. Roller cam followers etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bflKyjIvOQ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b9TT01rKNU
mmitch.

[Warmtoast]

Periodically I receive a copy of 'Museum Selection's' latest brochure.
The latest one intriguingly includes an advert for books including this one for facsimiles of the Pilot's Notes for the Spitfire, Hurricane and Lancaster which may be of interest to members of this thread.
I have no connection with Museumselection.co.uk so this info is passed on FWIW.
WT

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Pilots%20Notes/WW2%20Pilots%20Notes_641x600_zpsdqdzulnu.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Pilots%20Notes/Image1_zps6fvcqovi.jpg

[mikehallam]

About 25 years ago I took an ex ATA lady pilot for a ride in my Jodel light 100 h.p. a/c. She'd not flown in a small 'plane since the war but was amused and thought it a rather delicate little thing when i gave her control.

She'd ferry flown single and twin engine a/c in her time, & afterwards borrowed her wartime (man) boss's book of instant pilots notes. I took a photo-copy.
I'll have a look for it tomorrow and see what might be of interest to folk here.

mike hallam.

[Olympia 463]

@mitch

Wow! Amazing videos. Took me back to my graduate apprentice days in Hillington. Those long cylinder head holding down studs - on Friday afternoons near finishing time the six of us GA's used to meet up in the experimental shop and have a competition to see how many of the nuts (28 of them) you could torque down on a Merlin before your arms gave out. Loser bought the beer. Thanks for the lead to that site. Happy days indeed.

[mikehallam]

Apropos my mail 11647 I looked all over for the copy of brief pilots' notes that the ATA were using in 1943-5.
However I did rediscover all the 1942 charts she'd kindly given me, covering all G.B. with many fields marked in red ink some of which aren't known of (by me) now.
Of course some have their earlier names Westhampnett for Goodwood.
But what about, e.g. Pulborough unless that's where the gliders fly from at Parham ?
Another old name marked along the south coast area is Wilmington S.W. of Hailsham, which could be where Ripe AKA Deanland now is ?

My lady friend was Mary Villiers from Horsham who lived to 95 dying nearly 3 years ago in January. My one flight with her was in September 1994 when she was a youthful 75.
I looked her up and found she'd flown some 550 hours delivering 'planes from various centres from 1943 to 1945.
I'm now 80 but had a fly this afternoon in my Rans S6-116 with all of 80 h.p. up front !

mike hallam.

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

mikehallam

My late father ferried A/C around India for three months, March to June 1944 for No. 21 Ferry Control based at Mauripur before he joined 229 Group Comm Flight in Delhi. I have his ATA Ferry Pilots Notes (India Command Edition) printed in India Aug. 1943. The notes cover some 48 A/C types, some of which were incredibly rare specimens in the sub-continent - but nevertheless they were in the notes.

Ian BB

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

PS
And of course the notes include Danny's Vultee Vengeance (not that the senior pilot of this thread ever had the benefit of such information himself, no such featherbedding) - self taught in a matter of minutes, in the field don't ya know!

[longer ron]

But what about, e.g. Pulborough unless that's where the gliders fly from at Parham ?

mike hallam.

Hi Mike
Parham airfield is the same site as the old landing ground but it is now prob less than half the area that it used to be,if you look at satellite view the landing ground would have extended over to where the rugby club is now.

I worked and lived down in that area for many years (and a lovely area it is too)

rgds LR

[Danny42C]

Ian (#11651),

Don't think I'll be investing in one of those. We had them up on here years ago, and concluded that they'd been cobbled up for the unfortunates who had to fly the Mk.IVs which came over to the UK late in the war, and were all converted into TTs (AFAIK).

When the first Mks I and II came out to India in autumn 1942, there was a sketchy Vultee sort-of Pilot's Note, not much use. As you say, we learned the hard way - by trial and error ! When I think of the comprehensive "conversion courses" which were deemed necessary (postwar) before we flew anything with more than one seat, it is amusing to recall my introduction to the VV - 20 mins in the back (which had a [detachable] stick, a rudder bar, a throttle and nowt else). Take-off, trim and landing by an 'experienced' (5 hr) VV man. Then I was a fully trained VV pilot ! ...... But they were good days ...

Spitfire Notes - now you're talking. Will raid piggybank and order one for Mk.I and another for Mk.XVI. Warmtoast (#11646), thanks for the steer, I presume, if I email <Museumselection.co.uk>, they will tell me how to do it.

Cheers both, Danny.

[Warmtoast]

Danny

You don't need to email just point your browser here:
Special Interest Books | Gift Books | Unusual Books | Museum Selection (http://www.museumselection.co.uk/books-deptbooks_pg1/)


...but I don't think you get a choice of Mk for the Spitfire - just the Spitfire 2. The two other aircraft included in the order cover various marks of Hurricane and Lancaster.


Late PS. Just had a look and according to the site these Pilots Notes are now out of stock.

WT

[ICM]

Danny,

This, at the IWM shop, may be more useful - apparently covering all Marks of Spitfire, if the cover is to be believed:

The Spitfire PocketBook : Welcome to the Imperial War Museum Online Shop (http://www.iwmshop.org.uk/product/21544/The_Spitfire_PocketBook)

[Molemot]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Spitfire-XVI-Pilots-Notes-Supermarine/dp/0859790460

[Danny42C]

Thanks, chaps all. Will have a go, and report progress.

Danny.

[roving]

A little thread drift. Those who served in Changi in the late 1950's and early 1960's may be interested in this video of John Hutchinson's recollection of the Shackleton which came down off the Island of Borneo on 9 December 1958.

The Shackleton was powered by RR Griffin engines.

https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19581209-0

Hutchinson who was due to be part of the crew, by chance swapped with another RAF pilot because he had recently married and was house hunting in Singapore before his wife came out. In the interview he offers a theory as to why the accident happened.

bka9f9JMD0k

add

For a brief description of his RAF career see here:

https://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/455846-wind-beneath-my-wings-john-hutchinson-concorde-pilot.html

[Wander00]

Book Depository have huge range of Pilot's Notes for wartime aircraft. Just ordered four of interest,€7 or €8 a copy andfree delivery (no commercial link, of course)

[roving]

Commercial link?

https://www.bookdepository.com/Royal-Air-Force-Pilots-Notes-for-Spitfire-Ii-and-Iib-Aeroplanes-Royal-Air-Force/9781937684686?ref=bd_recs_1_1

add

You mean you have no commercial link? ;

I do not think anyone would suggest that you would promote a website out of commercial interest.

[Wander00]

Roving - though maybe not well expressed, you know what I mean. Apparently book depository is a tributary of a well known S American river

[Danny42C]

Re: Spitfire Pilot's Notes. Got the Mks. IX, XI, XVI coming [Amazon], but Mks I and II (little difference between the two) seem harder to source.

All sorts of other Spitfire stuff on offer.

Danny.

[Wander00]

Danny - see my post and Roving's above


Regards


W

[roving]

Wander00 forgive the suggestion, but I wondered whether you had ever considered an Open University Degree course. Sunny days sat in a deck chair in the Vendee with an open book on some interesting academic subject and a glass of the local wine in hand, could be very pleasant.

[Danny42C]

Wander00 (#11663),

Thanks. - PN for Spitfire II on order from Book Depository (aka Amazon) !

Danny.

[Wander00]

Danny - hence the "tributary of a S American river" comment


Roving - good idea, but tried OU many years ago and found it patronising and not very challenging so took Chartered Management Accountant's course instead. Might go back to a degree or diploma course though. Have done some massive on line open courses, including RAF in the Cold War - run by RAF Museum and Goldsmiths. We will see in the New Year

[roving]

Wander00

My younger brother was/is a chartered management accountant in the defence industry. For many years he worked for a company in Cheltenham but then created his own consultancy which had essentially one client -- HMG. He focused on high value single supplier contracts.** Some of the work he was involved in was so interesting he could not even take a mobile phone on site.

** An example being lets say a US stealth fighter. He would fine tooth comb every line of the contract and then visit the manufacturers and check the facts.

[Wander00]

Roving - did your sibling train with the Army at Worthy Down. I was there 87-91, on and off

[roving]

Wander00 he qualified in the early 1970's with a civilian company. Whether he worked at the place you refer I do not know for the simple reason that much of his work was covered by the official secrets act, so I made a point of not asking him.

[TYTOENG232]

Super Stuff!! and I am only at page 107! This exciting thread is better than any book and more personal. It will take me quite a while to read through the fantastic experiencies endured by the likes of cliffnemo, regle RIP, et al, and all the other brave men who gave their all. God bless you all. TG. Eh! am I in the right section here?

[Geriaviator]

Oh yes Tytoeng, you're in the right section! Welcome to our virtual crewroom where we all share your admiration for those who gave so much for future generations. On the subject of pilot's notes I too have been looking back and Reg Levy's succinct opinion of Lancaster, Halifax and Mosquito can be found in his post #1674 on page 84. I seem to recall that Reg did a tour on Mosquitos but chose Halifaxes for his second on the grounds that post-war airlines would need four-engine qualifications. And just what a career it turned out to be. It's all in preceding pages ...

And may I just wish everyone a Happy Christmas and hopefully a few more New Years.

[Molemot]

I seem to remember that Reg wanted something that dropped more and bigger bombs... hence the transfer to the Halifax. This thread continues to be one of the most fascinating and informative anywhere on the web; it is a privilege to be able to interact with the more senior members of our aetherial crewroom....

[Geriaviator]

One last bit of friendly advice. Ask these questions now ! Regle As Reg Levy wrote in his #1633 in March 2010. Thankfully many of us did and continue to do so from the few that still survive from those dark days of 70+ years ago. As Molemot says, it is our great privilege.

[Danny42C]

TYTOENG232 (#11670),

First, welcome aboard, pull your chair up nearer the stove, give it a poke !. You've only got as far as p.107 ? (I put my first tremulous toe in the water in p.114). Now let's have your tale ASAP !

"regle" (Captain Reg Levy DFC, of Sabena - RIP) wrote a wonderful story here. Post mortem his family collated his Posts and published them as a book: "Night Flak and Hi-Jack" (I think) - I bought the kindle version - and, at the same time (quite understandedly, to protect sales) had taken down from here the Posts of his most famous exploit, the outwitting of the high-jackers of his Sabena 707 at Tel Aviv. This was doubly noteworthy in that two members of the israeli SAS crew who stormed the aircraft later became Prime Ministers of Israel (could we have some Prime Ministers like that, please ?)

Merry Chrismas and Happy New Year to you and yours !

Danny42C

[mikehallam]

Happy Christmas

and

A healthy New Year to Danny and all forumites.

mike hallam.

[Chugalug2]

Indeed MH, and may I second Danny's greetings to TYTOENG232, indeed to all who frequent this virtual crewroom. Whatever nationality, race, or creed, we are bound together all by our love for, and experience of, aviation.

May we all look forward to a Happy and More Peaceful New Year; for those who frequent this Forum, and in particular this thread, know full well that though some may indeed have "a Good War" there is nothing good about war. The best way to avoid it is to "Speak Softly and Carry a Big Stick" rather than the other way around!

A Merry Christmas to us all; God bless us, every one!

[Brian 48nav]

Wise words, thank you.

May I also echo the above posts and send warmest greetings to all who frequent this thread.

Keep stoking, Danny! HM I'm sure will be keeping your Telegram in a safe place!

[MPN11]

Season's Greetings to the denizens of the cyber crew-room!

My New Year's Resolution is wash the cyber coffee mugs more often ;)

[Geriaviator]

https://s20.postimg.org/icsu5g17x/vultee_sleigh.jpg

After a couple of years I felt I could wheel this one out of the hangar again ...

By the way, if anyone wants a long Christmas read, drop me a PM with your email address and I shall send you the memoirs of Fairey Battle pilot Sqn Ldr Rupert Parkhouse, serialised in this thread early this year. The memoirs are transcribed from a three-hour tape he made for the IWM a decade ago and describe his training at Cranwell, his arrival to the decimated 12 Sqn in France, being shot down on his second sortie, his life as prisoner, and flying a Sunderland on the Berlin Airlift.

[roving]

Happy Christmas and Best Wishes for the New Year

[roving]

Do Squadrons still produce Christmas cards?

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

Seasons Greetings to all who visit this magnificent thread with its unique contributions from the last of the WW2 participants. Contributor or Lurker, enjoy the season - Good Will to all!

Ian BB

[Octane]

Dear all,

I stumbled across this wartime training video for the P-38 Lockheed Lightning. I thought it may be of interest. It is 40 minutes long but has a very "interesting" (Betty Grable?) intro and I found it fascinating... Couldn't find a similar video for the Vengeance Danny. Either Vultee didn't get around to it or maybe they thought it was was straight forward enough to fly so it wasn't warranted?! Just hopping in it and "giving it a go" obviously worked out ok for Danny et al....

I have to confess I, perhaps naively, didn't realize what complicated bits of kit WW2 era aircraft were. Puts into perspective the enormous challenges young pilots were faced with going into combat with only a few hours time on type. They would have still been coming to terms with how to operate the aircraft capably let alone face hostile aircraft doing their best to shoot them down...

https://youtu.be/VDJz8QZD9Eg

I do have a few questions (Danny, I have you in mind!);

1. Why do the Americans refer to the aircraft as a ship?!
2. Why is the airspeed in mph rather than knots? Seems an odd thing to do..

I'd like to wish a safe Merry Christmas and New Year to Danny and all the wonderful contributors on this fascinating thread.

Cheers

Michael

[Ddraig Goch]

Can I wish all the contributors and readers of this wonderful thread a very merry Christmas and best wishes for a happy and healthy New Year.

John

[Taphappy]

A Merry Christmas and a Happy and Healthy to all who contribute to and read this wonderful thread May your God be with you.

[Taphappy]

Should have read.
A Merry Christmas and a Happy and Healthy New Year to all who contribute to and read this wonderful thread.
May your God be with you.

[Danny42C]

Octane (#11683),

Michael,

Thank you for the video. Betty Grable (that brings a gleam to my rheumy old eye !) A princess of the silver screen in WWII, her legs were reputedly insured for a million dollars by the film studio. She was renowned more for her very short, tight pants, which were cut as high on the hip as the Hays Code (the US equivalent of the "British Board of Film Censors") would allow. Not much of an actress, but Hell - who cared ?

It was the RAF practice in the Far East for the ridiculously baggy issue KD shorts to be rolled up or shortened by the wearer (for ease of movement and coolness, you understand) as far as decency permitted (as no underpants ever worn). They were universally known as "Betty Grable" shorts.

You couldn't find anything similar for the VV. Not surprising - there is nothing ! Nobody at home ever heard of them and the only useful youtube is by "Vlad" (Page 129, #2561 here), which Chugalug brought to our notice, and on which I've commented on a following Post.

Your queries:

1. "Why do the Americans refer to the aircraft as a ship?" ...... And a car as an automobile ?
Because they do, that's why !

2. "Why is the airspeed in mph rather than knots? Seems an odd thing to do ?" .....
As far as I can remember, all our ASIs were calibrated in mph up to the time they chucked me out in 1946. All our maps were measured in multiples of statute miles (eg 1:1,000,000). This helped poor benighted pilots to do their own DR nav.

Clever navs could do the conversion, or prick off the map distance with dividers, then straddle the latitude scale at the side of the map (a minute of latitude is one nautical mile) to read off distance.

When I came back in 1949, we were all using knots, a knot is one nautical mile per hour, which made life easier for navs. Pilots could like it or lump it. So it has been ever since.

That's all, folks. Happy New Year to you and yours , Michael, and to all our readers !

Danny.

[ricardian]

Latest email, received today.

Season's Greetings to all my Biggin Hill RAF Chapel and anti BHMM scheme friends,
Over the last few weeks there has been contradictory nonsense from Bromley Council and their BHMM Trust. In FAQ's on the BHMM website, it describes the Chapel having been 'FREED' of its Vestry Annexe, this at a cost of £25,000 under Repairs and Conservation! While three weeks ago the new Leader of the Council, Cllr Colin Smith, was reported in our local newspaper as stating that it was 'a shame that the Vestry was demolished'. The demolition occurring weeks after his appointment with plenty of time to reconsider. The belief is that it had dawned on him that the Local Council Elections are only a few months away in the Spring and this was a cynical attempt to save face against the prospect of many lost votes.
To view six of the many letters to the editor on the issue please click here and hit 'letters' on the top bar of the website: Help nine-year-old Ben from Orpington fight his brain cancer | Home | Bromley Borough News (http://www.bromleyboroughnews.co.uk) Cllr Colin Smith's email address for your own personal comments on his statements remains: [email protected]
As for the Chapel itself this Christmas, it looks cold and forlorn - no Carol Service this year (and perhaps never again?) Little can be seen from the road because of the site screening, in any case like most 'locals', I avert my eyes while passing, whereas in the past one would always glance across in respect and pride.
The three Secretaries of State have been 'passing the buck' between themselves over the matter. However the Local Government Ombudsman has yet to conclude his investigations into the Planning Application, so it is still very important to get more signatories to the Petition to back up our case.

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/protect-biggin-hill-st-george-s-raf-chapel-of-remembrance

Please continue to spread the word and forward this email far and wide, or tell people just to search: Protect Biggin Hill RAF Chapel. Wishing you all a very happy New Year and some belated success for our campaign in 2018.
Kindest regards, Rita. email: [email protected]

[Octane]

Greetings Danny,

Thanks for answering my questions (we still don't know why our American friends call them ships! Did they do that in your time training in the US?), I'm glad you enjoyed the film. The Betty Grable bit was close to soft porn I thought, fairly outrageous for the time I think...

After watching the P-38 training film do you reckon you could hop in one and take it for a spin?!

If people are interested in watching these bits of history, I'm happy to have a look around and post a different one every now and then...

Cheers

Michael

[Geriaviator]

https://s20.postimg.org/51qvlxr1p/Jack_Stafford_rotorua.jpg

Readers of this wonderful thread may recall that a couple of years ago I posted the memoirs of Flt Lt Jack Stafford, DFC, RNZAF, after reading his obituary in the Rotorua Daily Post. I rediscovered the transcription over the hol and re-read it from end to end. His story ranks alongside the very best of aviation writing, I think particularly of Geoffrey Wellum and First Light, and I'm sure you will enjoy his memoirs even more as one document.

Please drop me a PM with your email address and I shall mail it to you.

[savimosh01]

Jerryh99 (#9945) - page 498

Jerry,

Thank you for the 110 Squadron photo taken at Kalyan 15/9/1944. Crews on the Takoradi detachment left Kalyan on July 8 and August 8. This detachment took "all the new Vengeances [Mark IV] and the rest of the Squadron made do with the old aircraft and a brace of Airspeed Oxfords." [Source: Bell, Flight Lieutenant Elwyn D. "The Story of No. 110 (Hyderabad) Squadron Royal Air Force".] My father, F/Lt Kenneth Mosher, was one of the July 8 group, led by S/Ldr L.F. Penny.

F/Lt Wardrop was Australian.

Do you have anything on William "Bill" Cook, 110 (H) Squadron, Navigator, may have been at Yelahanka?

RE: The album also has a photo taken during a mountain climb - survival training? Looks like it was pretty arduous, some of the men look distinctly "browned off."

From the ORB
21/9/1944 - 1 flight only to-day Oxford MK I - 2 1/2 hours. A good form of exercise was organized for all aircrews (Officers and N.C.O.s) after 10 days of lectures and flying under the concentrated training programme. The mountain near KALYAN was scaled and the MUSLIM MOSQUE two-thirds of the way up was visited. Cooks went with the party providing picnic lunch and tea.

Sara

[Danny42C]

Octane (#11689),

..."we still don't know why our American friends call them ships! Did they do that in your time training in the US?"... Ships of the air, I suppose. Yes, in training in 1942, we would speak of "a four-ship formation" And in the RAF, too, in Burma we had a safety poster: a wrecked aircraft with the caption:

"Landings should only finish the trip -
Not damage you, and cripple the ship !"

..."The Betty Grable bit was close to soft porn I thought, fairly outrageous for the time I think"... Not at all, even as far back as our distant youth, we'd given up putting frillies on table legs! No one would take offence at that - par for the course, and a favourite pin-up, was our Betty.

Scabrous story: we had in Burma a USAAC Colonel glider pilot Jackie Coogan (child film star - "The Kid", with Charlie Chaplin). Had married (inter alia) Betty: he was supposed to have greeted strangers with "Shake the hand which held the c##k that f####d Betty Grable.".

..."After watching the P-38 training film do you reckon you could hop in one and take it for a spin?!"... I sure as hell wouldn't try any asymmetric stuff- what a carry-on! In extremis, I would have a go (on two) - it's supposed to be like riding a bike - you never forget. I do like the little u/c and flap indicator, we had he same thing on our VVs (for u/c only, takes the place of our "Three Greens") and we had a retractible tailwheel, too (on of all aitcraft the one which needed it least).

If you haven't looked up the Vlad YouTube (Page 129, #2561 here) it's well worth a visit - the only known film clip of VVs in the air.

Cheers, Danny.

[Fareastdriver]

I sure as hell wouldn't try any asymmetric stuff- what a carry-on!

Interestingly the P38's engines in the video were 'handed' the wrong way for asymmetric flight. Take the port engine, it rotated clockwise viewed from the front so it would require left rudder to counteract the torque, the same as a Provost T1.
This would mean that if the starboard engine failed rudder would be needed to control both torque and asymmetric yaw; in spades.

The De Havilland Hornet has them the right way as it was also designed for carrier use so the engine torque would help you to control the swing.

Somewhere I read that they changed the P38's direction of propeller rotation in later marks, certainly Googling the photos suggest so.

[Octane]

Hi Danny,

Just found this film, probably you have seen it before. Features take offs, landings, arming the aircraft, monkey mascot (belonged to the CO, Ira Sutherland apparently..) and other stuff. Has captions identifying various crew etc

https://youtu.be/b8RqlK1d1_k

Cheers

Michael

[ricardian]

Latest email, received today.

Season's Greetings to all my Biggin Hill RAF Chapel and anti BHMM scheme friends,
Over the last few weeks there has been contradictory nonsense from Bromley Council and their BHMM Trust. In FAQ's on the BHMM website, it describes the Chapel having been 'FREED' of its Vestry Annexe, this at a cost of £25,000 under Repairs and Conservation! While three weeks ago the new Leader of the Council, Cllr Colin Smith, was reported in our local newspaper as stating that it was 'a shame that the Vestry was demolished'. The demolition occurring weeks after his appointment with plenty of time to reconsider. The belief is that it had dawned on him that the Local Council Elections are only a few months away in the Spring and this was a cynical attempt to save face against the prospect of many lost votes.
To view six of the many letters to the editor on the issue please click here and hit 'letters' on the top bar of the website: Help nine-year-old Ben from Orpington fight his brain cancer | Home | Bromley Borough News (http://www.bromleyboroughnews.co.uk) Cllr Colin Smith's email address for your own personal comments on his statements remains: [email protected]
As for the Chapel itself this Christmas, it looks cold and forlorn - no Carol Service this year (and perhaps never again?) Little can be seen from the road because of the site screening, in any case like most 'locals', I avert my eyes while passing, whereas in the past one would always glance across in respect and pride.
The three Secretaries of State have been 'passing the buck' between themselves over the matter. However the Local Government Ombudsman has yet to conclude his investigations into the Planning Application, so it is still very important to get more signatories to the Petition to back up our case.
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/protect-biggin-hill-st-george-s-raf-chapel-of-remembrance
Please continue to spread the word and forward this email far and wide, or tell people just to search: Protect Biggin Hill RAF Chapel. Wishing you all a very happy New Year and some belated success for our campaign in 2018.
Kindest regards, Rita. email: [email protected]

Letters to the local newspaper (http://www.bromleyboroughnews.co.uk/archive.cfm?sectionIs=letters) show that there is considerable outrage at the demolition

[Chugalug2]

I too am in receipt of emails from the Redoubtable Rita. Her latest missive being in the way of a correction to the one you quote:-

Dear Friends,
I have been 'ticked off' by readers of the Bromley Borough News who have rightly corrected me that the Leader of the Council, Cllr Colin Smith, didn't just say it was 'a shame' that the Vestry was demolished, in fact he said it was a 'GREAT SHAME', whilst being the one person who could have called a halt to the destruction!
Please read the letters to the editor prompted by this disingenuous statement by clicking here and then going to 'letters' on the top bar of website: Bromley PC is dismissed following inappropriate online chat with a minor | Home | Bromley Borough News (http://www.bromleyboroughnews.co.uk)
Kindest regards,
Rita.

The sheer hubris of this Council is unbelievable. Perhaps they just want shot of the job? They are certainly going the right way about it!

[roving]

Behind the Telegraph paywall is the Obituary of Group Captain John Watson ("Johnnie") Foster DFC, AFC, who died Monday October 30th 2017 at the age of 95.

His DFC citation reads

Flight Lieutenant John Watson FOSTER (134757),
R.A.F.V.R., 65 Sqn.
This officer has completed a large number of
sorties during which he has led the squadron on
many occasions. He has invariably displayed a
"high degree of skill and courage and has contributed
materially to the successes obtained. He
has proved a most valuable member of the
squadron/

A fighter pilot with credited victories, he flew Spitfires and later Mustangs in France and Germany. He rose from a VR Sgt in 1942 to S/L O.C 65 Sqn in March 1945. Post war he stayed in the Royal Air Force and was granted a permanent commission and was promoted back to the rank of S/L in 1951. He was promoted to Group Captain in 1967. He retired in 1975.

A French language website records:

Johnny Foster was born in Belfast, Northern Ireland, on August 1, 1922. He studied at Campbell College and spent two years at the Faculty of Medicine before joining RAFVR in August 1940. He began training at 5 EFTS of Stoke-on-Trent and 32 SFTS of Moose Jaw, Canada, qualifying as a pilot with the rank of Sgt. He completed his operational training at Hawarden's OTU 57 before being posted to Squadron 19 in April 1942. Promoted to the rank of F/L on September 18, 1942, he completed his first tour of operations in December 1943 and became a flight instructor. OTU 57 from January to August 1944. In August, he was reassigned to Squadron 19 but the following month was transferred to Squadron 65, a unit in which he later became Flight Commander. He took command of the Squadron in March 1945 and received the DFC whose announcement appeared on May 11, 1945.

He continued to serve in the RAF after the war and remained with Squadron 65 until September 1946. He then joined the British occupation forces in Japan from November 1946 to August 1948. Back in Britain, he served on different bases and became leader of the acrobatic team flying Meteors and was awarded the AFC. On September 5, 1950, he took command of Squadron 257, equipped with Meteors. He then occupied various staff positions, in Great Britain and abroad, in Egypt, in Cyprus and participated in Suez operations in 1956. From 1958, he worked at the Air Ministry in various Staff positions. He left the RAF in 1975 in the rank of Group Captain.

FOSTER John Watson (http://www.cieldegloire.com/002_raf_foster_j_w.php)

[megan]

the P38's engines in the video were 'handed' the wrong way for asymmetric flightAll for good reason Fareastdriver, would you expect the famed Kelly Johnson the designer (SR-71) to do anything else?

The prototype had the props rotating in the opposite direction to the production aircraft shown in the video. Wind tunnel work that followed showed it to be the very worse direction of rotation, as the trim change with variations of power were at a maximum. So it was changed to the direction as in the video, the aim of reducing the pitching moment with power changes was to make the aircraft a more stable gun platform.

[Fareastdriver]

I stand corrected; maybe I should have read up Wiki first.

[Danny42C]

Octane (#11694),

..."the only known film clip of VVs in the air"... Me and my big mouth ! Yes, I have seen this clip you put up, and I commented on it to spme length, as I recall. Now will do battle with stupid "Search this Thread", to see if I can give you the Post reference.

Found it (#9854) - here is a copy to save you the trouble:

"To anyone who's interested:

Idly roaming around on Key Publishing Co., came across this Link put in by "jagan" (who is well knowh to us from BHARAT RAKSHAK):

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8RqlK1d1_k>

This is a string of YouTubes, the first showing the IAF and their VVs (I loved the shot of the little capuchin monkey vainly trying to get up the u/c leg to get up on the wing [pilots used the same way - right foot on wheel, left in the "stirrup", quick scramble, and you're on top], and later (the monkey, that is) gambolling all over the aircraft.

Third youtube is a history of the Vultee aircraft by Pat Macha (?): there's only a bit about the VVs from 25.00 to 27.20 (out of a whole hour !), but plenty about the BT-13, but let's just say that opinions vary about that aircraft !"

Further comment: the "capuchin" is (I think) a macaque, and in addition, note:

1. The bombs going into the bay have no nose fuses (practice
dummies ? - never seen one myself - this is, I think, OTU).
2. Bananas free for the picking !
3. Box-of-six was was normal tactical formation. Tail-down "sit" in air
well illustrated.
4. Gunner lucky not to get bitten !
5. Taxying a/c with dive brakes out - hope he put 'em in before he
took off - could've been messy otherwise !
6. Dive (of sorts) Good pic of Dive brakes opening. Was the bridge the
target ?
7. Always complaints about long T/O run.

Of course, the best bit of video about the VV is still the well known "Vlad" compendium of shots...

Danny.

[Octane]

I did think the T/O run seemed rather long. Obviously the dry season with all the dust. What was it like in the wet season Danny? Did you have the the luxury of PSP (pierced steel planking)?
Note: PSP is often seen to this day throughout the Philippines, used as garden fencing. Must be fairly thick gauge steel to last this long...

[Danny42C]

Octane (#11701),

We didn't operate in the Monsoon (couldn't - you need 10,000 ft of clear air below you to dive-bomb accurately with a VV - the dog must see the rabbit). We pulled out from our dirt strips as soon as the rains were imminent, back to paved airfields further West, and sat it out except for admin and training flights. There were only a few PSP strips, I used them once or twice and was horrified at the row made when we rolled over the stuff.

Danny.

[ricardian]

Something that Danny & other Air Traffic bodies may appreciate
The speaker is ex-RAF

[Brian 48nav]

Bunny Gunson was at Brum when I did my Aerodrome training in '74. A fellow ATCO told me that he had been crewed-up with him in Coastal Command - IIRC, Shackletons but it may have been Nimrods. They were both Signallers, again IIRC.

[Danny42C]

ricardian (#11703),

Priceless ! You must all (particularly MPN11) listen to this ! (Best to have the subtitles on otherwise you'll miss a lot).

Danny (10 years on and off flying, 17 years ATC).

[savimosh01]

[QUOTE=roving;10003927]Behind the Telegraph paywall is the Obituary of Group Captain John Watson ("Johnnie") Foster DFC, AFC, who died Monday October 30th 2017 at the age of 95.

Thank you for this, Roving. I've corresponded with Johnnie Foster who coincidentally lived close to my mother's family in Wales. My mother's boyfriend, Jimmy Muir, flew with him in 65 Squadron.

Henry James Muir - The Canadian Virtual War Memorial - Veterans Affairs Canada (http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/remembrance/memorials/canadian-virtual-war-memorial/detail/2258929)

https://www.tracesofwar.com/sights/2198/Memorial-Mustang-FZ125.htm

Sara

[roving]

ricardian & Danny ... yes a very good after dinner speaker.

savimosh01 I was delighted to learn that my post was of personal interest to you.

[megan]

FED, a graph of the moments I forgot to include.

[MPN11]

ricardian (#11703),

Priceless ! You must all (particularly MPN11) listen to this ! (Best to have the subtitles on otherwise you'll miss a lot).

Danny (10 years on and off flying, 17 years ATC).I am well familiar with that fabulous presentation! Indeed, it should be part of any ATC Training course ;)

Happy New Year, btw ... all the best to you all for 2018.

[FAR CU]

Just a liitle yarn that I heard from the man who instigated it's telling in the first place. He was formerly a flying instructor in the RAAF. He 's passed on now, but on the map, his name is on a little mountain near a place called Lake Pedder, in the Apple Isle. (once Van Dieman's Land)

Early one morning, just as the sun was rising, into the met office at Cambridge Airport, (the one at Hobart , Tasmania) , there stomped the CFI of the newly formed Aero Club of Southern Tasmania, Lloyd Jones, till not long before , an instructor at No9 EFTS Western Junction, in the State's north.

Lloyd and the met man , Sam, disliked each other's GUTZ , to put it mildly. Lloyd, with pipe clenched between his teeth, stood by Sam's desk, feeling in his pocket for his matches. He lit his briar, then casually tossed the match into the nearby metal waste paper basket, igniting the scrunched up paper therein. A furious Sam leapt up from his chair, went to stamp the fire out, but his shoe jammed in the now blazing basket, and was about to set his strides on fire. Swearing loudly, Sam danced around the room trying desperately to shake the basket free.

What did the very cool Lloyd do? He lent over Sam's consol and pressed the big red knob, setting off loud sirens and alerting the airport fire crew. A fire extinguisher was mounted on the wall of the met office, so Lloyd took hold of it and used it for its designed purpose.

Needless to say, from that day on, any duff weather forecast by Sam, Lloyd ignored. And went flying anyway.

[Octane]

Greetings Danny, Happy 2018!

Does this picture ring any bells? (guessing you may have already seen it?)

http://members.tripod.com/airfields_freeman/FL/Calstrom_FL_41Jun.jpg


And this one a few months before your time, June 1941 (42A?)..

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/British_Airmen_Training_With_the_Embry-riddle_Company_at_Carlstrom_Field%2C_Arcadia%2C_Florida%2C_A merica%2C_June_1941_TR79.jpg

The caption on these two is is 42B August 1941..
"The presentation of diplomas by Mr Paul Riddle to Royal Air Force cadets of the first course, Class 42-B, at Embry-Riddle Company. The cadets wear the white flash identifying air crew in their caps. Shirts and trousers are USAAC issue."

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/British_Airmen_Training_With_the_Embry-riddle_Company_at_Carlstrom_Field%2C_Arcadia%2C_Florida%2C_A merica%2C_August_1941_TR83.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/19/British_Airmen_Training_With_the_Embry-riddle_Company_at_Carlstrom_Field%2C_Arcadia%2C_Florida%2C_A merica%2C_August_1941_TR80.jpg

This one's caption simply said Calstrom 1942. You in there Danny?!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CpxF0emVYAAUw3b.jpg:small



Maybe pre war? (no Station ID on the hanger roof, then again, maybe post Pearl Harbour to confuse the Japs?!)

https://www.urbanghostsmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/carlstrom-field-florida-abandoned-4.jpg]

Perhaps you knew of this man? Can't imagine they let you loose with a Major (George Ola) ?!

http://members.tripod.com/airfields_freeman/FL/Carlstrom_FL_41_Stearman.jpg

Lastly....

http://members.tripod.com/airfields_freeman/FL/Carlstrom_FL_41MaySect.jpg
Map from May 1941

(The captions disappeared upon posting..)

Apologies if these have been posted previously..

Best wishes

Michael

[Danny42C]

ctane (#11711),

..."Apologies if these have been posted previously"... Chugalug put up the circular picture of Carlstrom a long time ago: I had to say that, if I had known nothing of the photograph, it would mean nothing to me now - although I'd flown over the place a hundred times ! We named this strange amnesia: "The Carlstrom Syndrome". Does it afflict anyone else ?

Wild guess: the "abandoned airfield" was our RLG, where I first soloed.

News to me, the first British Course was 42B ? ... So the last Americans would be 42A ? ... Nay lad, not so. There have been our people on here who were 42A. I was 42C, arrived 2nd September '41. If they gave 42B all this kit, then they took it all back again when the photo shoot was over; all we got were flying overalls, they pinned my (US, silver) wings on my scruffy ones at Graduation 6th March '42. These are 42A.

As to the camp, the swimming pool was in the exact centre of the circle: the accommodation blocks (luxurious) flanking it on both sides. Mess Hall at 6 o'clock.

Good old Stearman ! They had an excellent idea, the ASIs in our (rear) cockpits were all removed, we flew our first 60 hours "by the seat of our pants" :ok:. As none of us had ever flown before, we accepted this as normal: what you've never had, you never miss. We thought all aircraft were flown like that (well, the Wright brothers made out all right without one). The proximate cause of the AF447 disaster was the chap flying it being in thrall to a (duff) ASI.

Don't know any of the handsome young men (did we really look as good as that ?) No wonder the Southern Belles were drawn to the BFTS cadets (who did their whole six months in one place, and that at a (getatable) town airport. We "Arnold Schemers" only did two months in any one place, and were always "out in the sticks" at some Godforsaken Army base, with nowhere to go and no transport to get us there. :{

Assuming this smart parade at Carlstrom to be 42A, then this would be July '41; the US was still "neutral". But Hitler had his own troubles in Russia at the time: what could he do about it anyway - complain to the League of Nations ? It would not be till December, when Japan set the ball rolling at Pearl Harbor, that Hitler declared war on the US, as he was obliged to do as a member of the Axis Powers; Roosevelt was at war whether he liked it or not.

We "lived in interesting times" !

Danny.

PS: (Pace Mr Moderator) - any news on the 'Bird in a [Stearman] Biplane' on "Private Flying" Forum ? (things have gone awfully quiet).

[Fareastdriver]

Hitler didn't have to declare war on the USA. He was just too overconfident.

From Wiki

[QUOTE][/Japanese declaration of war on the United States propelled, although it did not require, a similar declaration of war from all the other signatories of the Tripartite Pact.QUOTE]

The mistake the Japanese made was to attack the United States. They should have punched north from Manchuria, cut the Soviet Union in half enabling Germany to mop up the western side with the Russian Far East Army stuck in the east.

Then they would have got their oil supplies.

[Geriaviator]

Octane's post inspired me to consult Google satellite view, at
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@27.126675,-81.8273254,2998m/data=!3m1!1e3 The circular outline is unmistakable although the area has been developed, its buildings including the Juvenile Justice Department.

If one Googles Carlstrom Field by name, a marker appears about 5km west of the circular estate, obviously off course. Go another 500m (end of Thompson's Lane) and there is a grass runway, to one side the unmistakeable outline of a DC3.

The text notes that 23 British trainees rest forever in the Arcadia cemetery.

[roving]

Start the New Year with a little humour which I am sure will amuse Danny.

After the formal surrender of Japan on 2 September, the British began playing catch-up so far as the re-occupation of its former colonies were concerned.

On that day it was agreed between the Japanese local commander and the British that the formal surrender of the Island of Penang would be signed that day on the HMS Nelson.

The senior Japanese Naval Commander, Rear Admiral Jisaku Uzumi, duly arrived to sign the document of surrender proudly displaying his Distinguished Service Cross awarded to him by the British in WWI.

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

Geriaviator yr. post 11714

"The text notes that 23 British trainees rest forever in the Arcadia cemetery."

As do the remains of John Paul Riddle who operated Carlstrom Field and constructed No. 5 B.F.T.S (my father's Alma Mater) at Clewiston Florida. It was his wish to be laid to rest with his fallen British trainees. His legacy is the Embry-Riddle University who are still a major U.S. flight training organisation

Ian BB

[Octane]

Perhaps this shows the air field you went solo Danny?


http://www.airfields-freeman.com/FL/Carlstrom_FL_43sect.jpg


http://www.airfields-freeman.com/FL/Airfields_FL_FtMyers_htm_b4fe2b3.jpg

"Dorr Field was reactivated on 10/4/41 as one of at least 5 satellite airfields used to support flight training operations at nearby Carlstrom Field,

where the Embry Riddle Academy operated a contract flight training school.

It was assigned to the USAAF East Coast Training Center (later Central Eastern Training Command) as a primary (Level 1) pilot training airfield,

and was operated by Embry-Riddle Corporation under 54th Flying Training Detachment primarily as a training airfield for Royal Air Force flying cadets"



http://www.airfields-freeman.com/FL/Airfields_FL_FtMyers_htm_6c1868d9.jpg

http://www.airfields-freeman.com/FL/Airfields_FL_FtMyers_htm_m7742aec9.jpg

As you pointed out, I think some of the captions with these photo's may be a bit misleading...

Cheers

Michael

[Fareastdriver]

There is probably more training aircraft lined up in that picture than the RAF has now.

[Danny42C]

Octane (#11717}.

Dorr Field - that's the one ! Thanks ! I don't remember a Control Tower (or any other buildings) in September 1941. Just a field, as I remember. They must've had a Crash Wagon, I suppose.

All the PT-17s would be at Carlstrom.

Danny.

[Geriaviator]

Lovely pix octane, is that a Kingfisher amphibian at top right corner? Just think ... maybe Danny learned his trade on one of these Stearmans.

[Danny42C]

Geriaviator (#11720),

Checked my log: we did not enter any aircraft identification numbers or letters - did the Stearmans have any ? At Basic (Vultee BT-13) and Advanced (North American AT-6A) Schools they had numbers: we entered them in logbooks. AFAIK, they did not lose many Stearmans, (none in the two months I was there); it is quite possible that I flew one or more of those on parade here.

Danny.

[Octane]

Greetings Danny. I'm pleased that's another mystery solved. Mind boggling that Dorr was one of FIVE satellite fields for Caltsrom! I have to say the picture showing the Dorr Field sign doesn't make the place look very inviting! Danny, in the colour photo of the cadets in blue gathered around the tail of one of the Stearmans, you can just make out the number "4" on the aircraft, aft of the rear cockpit..
There are some more photo's, I'll put them up later.

Cheers

Michael

[ElectroVlasic]

Perhaps this would be of interest here...
HARDtalk's Stephen Sackur speaks to 96-year-old George 'Johnny' Johnson, the last remaining British survivor of one of the most extraordinary and most famous aerial missions of World War II, the Dambusters raid. It was costly and not entirely successful - so why has it become such a part of Britain's national folklore?
BBC Iplayer (UK only): https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b09ldgq0/hardtalk-george-johnny-johnson-dambuster

BBC Audio Download: BBC World Service - HARDtalk, Last surviving British Dambuster - George 'Johnny' Johnson (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csvpvr)

First few minutes on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFu8J9boELQ

[India Four Two]

Geri,

I think it’s a Sikorsky S-38

[ricardian]

Seen on Facebook just now:
Sadly - David K Laird
Ex XV Sqn Lancaster member, David Laird passed away 30 Dec 2017. He was immensely proud of his time with XV. The programme of events of the disbandment was always on his table and he had a lovely week at the MacRobert Trust during the Summer.
Aged 92 David led a very interesting life. After the war, he served as a Major in the Lovat Scouts and he headed youth development on Sheffield Council. A keen sportsman he played professional football in Scotland and was in the football team of every RAF station on which he served. He was still ski instructing in Italy well into his 80's!
The current plan is that David's funeral will take place at the Friockheim Crematorium on the afternoon of Thursday 11 Jan 18.

[roving]

Commissioned 27 August 1944

1571017 David Kerr LAIRD (180233)

VR Commission relinquished.
Flight Lieutenant D. K. LAIRD (180233) (on
appointment to the Territorial Army). 6th Nov.
1957.

[roving]

sidevalve there was an Obituary in yesterday's Telegraph for Flying Officer Alfie Martin D.F.C., a WWII Halifax bomb aimer, who in Spring 1943 escaped from Belgium via the Comet Line.

edit

This Obituary is not behind a paywall.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/raf-hero-alfie-martin-who-parachuted-from-blazing-bomber-dies-in-belfast-36425474.html

This is the Obituary for the pilot Squadron Leader Lashbrook, who died in June 2017, who it appears from this brief Obituary also escaped.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/15353992.Obituary___Wally_Lashbrook__pilot_with_Bomber_Comma nd/

[OffshoreSLF]

Ricardian #11725, Roving #11726

This is from the Dundee Courier -
LAIRD Suddenly, at Ninewells Hospital, Dundee, on Saturday, December 30, 2017, David Kerr Laird, of Carnoustie (formerly Sheffield), in his 93rd year, beloved husband of the late Doris, a dear father of David, Ian and Stuart and the late Pamela, a dear father-in-law, grandfather and great-grandfather. Funeral service in Parkgrove Crematorium, Friockheim, on Thursday, January 11, at 1.30 p.m., to which all relatives and friends are respectfully invited. Family flowers only, please. Donations, if desired, for Poppy Scotland will be received at the Crematorium.

[Chugalug2]

Thanks for the links to Johnny Johnson's Hard Talk "interrogation" by the Beeb, EV. I assume from its title that the point of the programme is putting interviewees under tough questioning, but whether that is the case or not the agenda was all so predictable from Aunty. Did you think of the women and children that you killed? Did you ever have a moment of regret or remorse in doing what you were doing?

What the hell do these Hampstead Thinkers know about war, or Totale Krieg as Josef was want to call it? You fight to win with everything available to you, and to do so as quickly as possible, lest the enemy beats you to it. If the Beeb is opposed to war (unlike we mercenaries who obviously relish it) then I suggest it uses every means at its disposal to call for a greatly increased defence budget, so that we may have a big stick that would enable it to speak softly to the world. Otherwise we may expect history to repeat itself. It usually does, sooner or later.

I thought that Johnson gave a good account of himself, of his generation, of Bomber Command, and of his beloved squadron. He was polite and calm throughout the ordeal, which is more than I can claim.

[seafury45]

Chug, absolutely correct!
I felt the interviewer was talking "at" Mr. Johnson rather than "with" him. Like a lot of other modern interviewers, this fellow seemed to think he was the centre of attention.

[OffshoreSLF]

Saw this in today's Aberdeen Press & Jourmal.

DU FEU (Lossiemouth)Winter John Du Feu died peacefully at Dr. Gray's Hospital, Elgin, on Thursday, December 28, 2017, aged 98 years. RAF 1940-45, Flight/Lt 576 Squadron Bomber Command 1944/45. Loving husband of the late Mary, dear father of the late Patricia Joan. Sadly missed by relatives and friends in Jersey, UK and Australia. A celebration of his life will be held at William Watson's Chapel, Blackfriars Road, Elgin, on Friday, January 12, at 11.30a.m., thereafter to Lossiemouth cemetery, all friends respectfully invited. Family flowers only please, donations if desired at chapel for the RAF benevolent fund.

[roving]

The longevity of some of the WWII aircrew who survived until VE/VJ Day(s) is remarkable. Danny being a wonderful example.

[Fareastdriver]

To really live you must nearly die.

[roving]

I understand why Bomber Command engaged in a war of attrition over Germany in WWII, notwithstanding the very heavy air crew casualties. I hold no truck with the revisionists who seek to question the policy from their armchairs decades later.

Where I do question policy is during the period when Sholto Douglas, having replaced Hugh Dowding, who was by common agreement shoddily treated after Fighter Command's finest hour, embarked on "big wing" attacks against Luftwaffe fighter aircraft over France during 1941 and 1942.

Many distinguished Battle of Britain fighter pilots were KIA or captured during these operations.


The real tragedy of Sholto Douglas's policy was two fold:

1. It was totally ineffective. In 1941 German losses in combat were 103 c/f with Royal Air Force losses of some 400 fighter aircraft -- being shotdown over France, even if the pilot survived, invariably meant 4 years in a POW. In 1942 the introduction of the FW 190 meant that the Spitfire MK V was not only outgunned but under powered. it was only with the introduction of the Spitfire MK IX that the balance was restored. It is to be noted that these Fighter Command operations were not intended to support Bomber Command. Bomber Command didn't bomb over France and if they did, it would have been at night.

2. The unnecessary losses over France in 1941 and early 1942 meant that much needed experienced pilots and Spitfires were in short supply for the defence of Malta and the Battle of El Alamein. Whilst Hurricanes were extensively used in North Africa to drop bombs on enemy positions, there were insufficient (faster) Spitfires to provide air cover, leading to heavy losses of Hurricanes and pilots over the Med and North Africa in 1941 / 1942.

It was only in late 1943 and early 1944 with the introduction of the Spitfire MK IX (and other faster aircraft) and pilots trained under the Arnold Scheme in North America, that the Royal Air Force (in combination with the USAF) achieved control of the air in Europe.

I suspect that the justification for the 1941 Sholto Douglas policy was that it helped Britain's new ally, Russia. If so that was a pretty thin excuse. Germany lost the war in Russia for the same reason Napolean did. Military forces with overstretched supply lines and inadequate clothing for the extremely cold Russian winters.

What prompted this post was reading this Obituary from 2000.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2000/apr/26/guardianobituaries

[Dsrsia]

My Father was on Course 42C and a photo of him beside a Stearman shows the number 50 on the engine nacelle. He started at Darr Sep 2 41, then Vultees at Cochrane Nov 6, finally AT 6 at Dothan 2 Jan graduating Mar 28 42.
I came across a document in an Arnold Scheme file at Kew re Class 42A. 550 trainees started the course Jun 8 41, 270 graduated 3 Jan 42. Eliminated due to flying deficiency 251, ( Primary 44%, Basic 3%, Advanced 35% ) Held over 17, Deceased 9, Deserted 1, & 2 were eliminated for Discipline & Insurbordination.
The trainees were older men & many married. Apparently this led to an early stage rebellion against American discipline which accounts for the two eliminations. Apologies if this has already been covered in this fascinating thread.

[Danny42C]

Chugalug (#11729),

Well said, Sir ! As I emaied to a relaiive who'd drawn my attention to the interview:

..."Then I hunted down Johnny Johnson, the last Dambuster - another eye-opener. Calm and rational despite his years, he answered his interviwer politely enough, even though he was being needled with the BBC revisionist "Butcher Harris" claptrap that passes for history nowadays (and, I suppose, is taught in schools).

Oh, the poor innocent civilian Germans in Hamburg and Dresden ! How they must have suffered ! How could we have done such cruel things ? .... Pardon me ? How about the poor folk of Rotterdam, London, Coventry and a dozen other places. "When you prick them, do they not bleed ?"

Firstly, as my old Uncle Laurie (ex-WWI trenches) expressed it: "When the scrap-iron starts flying about, EVERYBODY'S liable to get hurt". Then I put it on Pprune (for this very question has been thrashed out there): "Harris would've liked a rapier - but all he had was a club !" (you have to fight a war with what you've got - not with what you would like to have). Harris himself put in a nutshell with this Biblical (?) quotation: "They have sown the Wind ... They will reap the Whirlwind". And they did !"...

Danny.

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

Dsrsia - Welcome - better late than never! Where were you when I needed you?
ie: April 2014, Pages 276/277 posts 5509 -5519 etc. etc.

While I accept entirely that our respected Danny42C never saw such behaviours, I am relieved to find that evidence of "bolshie" insubordination that I brought up from my research is corroborated in a file at The National Record Office in Kew.

Now you are here please give us all you know and tell us what happened to your Dad

Again, welcome to this gem of a thread!

[Danny42C]

Dsrsia (#11735),

Welcome into this glorious company ! Drag up a pew to the old coke stove in our cyber crewroom and listen to the Wisdom of the Ancients, as the gale howls around and flaps the loose Nissen hut corrugated iron sheets.

Now as to your ..."Apparently this led to an early stage rebellion against American discipline which accounts for the two eliminations"... Read Page 114, #2275 of this Thread, which bears on this very subject. At the risk of "teaching my grandmother how to suck eggs", the easy way to get to Page 114 (or any other Page) is to click on the little inverted cone in a box at the end of the Page bar: this will give you a "Go to Page" box.

The enormous "washout" rate in the Arnold Schools is a mystery to this day.

Your Dad must've gone the twin-engined route, as a single engine man I went Carlstrom-Gunter-Craig Field. So although we were both on 42C, we would never meet (except by chance in Canada on the way in and out).

Let's have anything you know of your Dad's war history, and ask anything you want to know: there is always someone on this Best of All Threads who will know the answer.

Happy Posting, Danny.

[Octane]

Greetings all.

Danny you're back! Was the lappy with the fixer?

Last night I literally stumbled on the picture below. It's on a NZ university website of all places. Hopefully it's a new picture of a VV to add to the collection?
It appears to be painted black? Seems a bit odd..
The foliage appears to indicate the Far East rather than the Pacific but just a guess?
Do the bombs shown look familiar to the ones you "delivered" Danny? Note that 2 of them have black "rear ends". Why on earth would they bother to paint them?

http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/etexts/WH2-3RAF/WH2-3RAF025a.jpg

Cheers

Michael

[megan]

More dark colours - RAAF, A27-245 in foreground (destroyed in New Guinea at Nadzab strip), middle -221 (written off force landing North Queensland), distant -226 (survived to disposal).

http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii120/Duggy009/Vultee-Vengeance-RAAF-1.jpg

[seafury45]

Octane Would overall Foliage Green be an explanation rather than black? (for the a/c) Were bombs colour coded perhaps?

[seafury45]

quick look at Google. Looks to my totally untrained eye that there are 2 x 1000lb on the front of the trolley and 2 x 500lb (painted)

[Icare9]

Thanks for the photo of different bombs.
Is it me, or is the caption reversed for the two bombs on the extreme left?
The 2,000 lb looks a lot smaller in diameter than the 1,000 lb above it....

While I'm asking - were the German explosives weight for weight more powerful than ours? During the Blitz their medium bombers seemed to inflict more damage "per bomb" than what seems the equivalent in Germany.

[roving]

The first episode in the series focuses on the outbreak of the Blitz in September 1940.

The first bombs used against Blitz Street, a row of terraced houses specially built on a remote military base and subjected to a frightening range of large-scale bombs and incendiaries similar to those dropped by the Luftwaffe - are the SC50 (25kg of TNT), the most common bomb dropped on the first day of bombing in London, and the SC500 bombs, which contained 250kg of TNT.

The programme features emotional eye witness testimonies, giving a fantastic insight into day-to-day life on the home front and the immense psychological damage caused by the bombardment.
Copyright Channel4 BBC


L0v2Uq8z7aI

[Wander00]

In one of the programmes there is a WW2 photo of six burned out appliances My Dad was, or had been, the driver of one of them. As a kid I saw the photo at home but after Dad died I guess my Mother destroyed that and other photos

[Danny42C]

Octane and Megan (#11739 and 740),

Fixer not needed: gave laptop a severe talking to, and pulled the battery to teach it to mind its manners - should work for a while !

The black colour is a mystery, all our bombs and fins were yellow. Both the pics are wartime, would be Mk.Is or IIs. 2x500 and 2x250 was the standard load for a VV. These 500s have their trunnion bands fitted ready for loading (the trunnions engage in a fork in the bay, which swings out and throws ths bomb clear of the prop disc in a vertical dive).

The fuses would normally be fitted at this stage, but I cannot be sure (poor definition and poor old eyes) that the nose fuses are in. At least, there is no sign of fusing link wires, but perhaps the RAAF armourers fitted them only at the last stage, in the bay. Bad practice IMHO, with the the fusing links (highly visible) locking the fuse cap, you know the fuse is "safe".

Which RAAF Squadron was "GR" ?


Danny.

[DHfan]

While I'm asking - were the German explosives weight for weight more powerful than ours? During the Blitz their medium bombers seemed to inflict more damage "per bomb" than what seems the equivalent in Germany.

What I know about explosives could be written on the back of a postage stamp in letters about a foot high but I'm sure I read somewhere in the dim and distant past that that was indeed the case earlier during the war.
Again from memory, it was because German explosives contained aluminium, presumably as a powder, and ours didn't. Finally somebody important said 'Why not?' and our explosives were changed.

[CoodaShooda]

Which RAAF Squadron was "GR" ?

That would be 24 Squadron, Danny.

[Octane]

Hi Danny,

nothing wrong with your eyes! You saw more detail than I did, perhaps I need to upgrade my spectacles? Did you notice the lower engine cowling appears to be painted white? So I was wrong re foliage, must be a RAAF machine then I suppose.

A question if I may (yet another one!), upon bomb release, you would have been flat out pulling up, avoiding terrain and ground fire I imagine but was your "back seater" (Stewie?) able to get a good look at where the bombs landed? i.e. Did you know if you got the buggers, pardon the language..

Cheers

Michael

[PPRuNeUser0139]

I've just heard that Gordon Mellor, one of the few surviving Comet evaders, passed away last night.
https://www.legasee.org.uk/oursecretwar/the-archive/gordon-mellor-/
Gordon was a Halifax navigator and his aircraft (W1216) was shot down near Turnhout by a German fighter during the night of 5/6 October 1942. He was picked up by Comet on 12th October.
Two weeks later (!) he crossed the Pyrenees at night, waded through the Bidassoa river that marked the Franco-Spanish frontier, left Gib in a DC-3 and arrived at Portreath on 1st November.
He finally published his story in 2016 - "ETA: A Bomber Command Navigator Shot Down and on the Run" - available from the usual suspects.
Gordon was one of the leading lights in the campaign for a memorial to those of Bomber Command who fell and I understand that at one moment, he stood to lose his house.
A great man - self-effacing, eternally modest and one of nature's gentlemen from that greatest of generations.
RIP Gordon.

[Danny42C]

roving (#11744),

Thank you for "Blitz Street". I had experience of the Liverpool 'blitz' in the few months when I was on "Deferred Service" (ie, waiting for the RAF to get me a place in flying training): had it not been for the generosity of General "Hap" Arnold USAAC, who formulated the Scheme which bears his name, offering pilot training places in his US schools to us, I might've been waiting for years - such was the number who volunteered for the RAF in the immediate aftermath of the Battle of Britain (and Churchill's deathless tribute to the 'Few').

We were living in Maghull (about eight miles north of the city centre) so did not get any bombs (AFAIK), but at nights the shrapnel from the AA defences often rattled down on our house roofs like hail. Working in the city, I pedalled in on my bike; one morning half way in, I passed a "Road House" (pub); they had just laid out a beautiful bowling green in front, a 100 kg bomb had excavated the exact centre and most of the carefully levelled green .....

Closer in, there were much grimmer sights, survivors and bodies were being recovered from the shattered, smoking remains of what once were streets of houses. The Blitz did me, in a strange way, a good turn. Liverpool has a very large Irish population, most would be R.C.s. The first need of a bombed-out family (assuming they'd survived unharmed in their "Anderson Shelter" in the back garden) is somewhere to live.

The Archbishop had ordered the clergy of his diocese to scour their parishes for any they could find. Finding some is half the battle: you need transport to get the families and what small items they could salvage, to their new place. Our Curate, a family friend in Maghull had an Austin Ten. As the "ferry" work would leave him no time for his parish duties, Father Ramsbottom hit on the idea of recruiting me (a very willing volunteer) as a driver. He gave me a week's instruction (evenings and weekends) as soon as I reached 18, I passed the Test at the end of the week, and soon got plenty of blackout driving practice: he was free to get on with his Church work.

I think my having a driving licence (not common in a working class lad in 1940) may have swung the balance at my Selection Board.

Danny.