Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II [Archive] - Page 7

fredjhh

4th Feb 2010, 15:41

I have often wondered how pilot training in the USA differed from RAF training in this country so, recently, I typed in a search on Google and found this site. I started near the end and worked back a few pages then suddenly realised who REGLE was. Reg will not remember me, but I remember being introduced to him at a 51 Squadron association re-union at Wytton about twenty year ago. We last met at Waddington about twelve years ago.
I have now read all 76 pages with great fascination, with several wonderful themes. I don’t think I missed any pages, in which case Reg has a lot more to say about his experiences with SABENA!
My first flight was in 1936 when, as a15 year old, I had a day out at Southport. Flying from Ainsdale Sands was a Fox Moth G - AACB and I spent my entire savings, five shillings, on a brief circuit flown by Norman Giroup, owner of The Giro Aviation Company; and I was hooked.
When war was declared my school pal wanted me to fly with the Royal Navy, but I was slightly colour blind and I knew I would never pass the Navy tests.
An older neighbour had been selected for training as an Observer, but had spent his first year of service as a clerk in the Orderly Room. He warned me, “Don’t accept Immediate Service. Ask for Deferred Service, otherwise you may find yourself doing Latrine Duties!”

Having been on deferred service, I was called to No ! Receiving Wing in Babbacome, traveling down with three local friends who were all KIA during the next few years. On my first night in Babbacome, sleeping in a civilian billet, we were between the fifth and the sixth bombs of a stick, presumably jettisoned by a German bomber as he flew over the coast. I crawled out of the wreckage and found the house-holders safe under the kitchen table. So my first night was almost my last night of what might have been the shortest Service on record. This was the 3rd of May 1941.
After two weeks at Babbacombe we were paraded and march to No 4 Squadron, 5 ITW at the Toorack Hotel in Torquay, by P/O Livingstone and Corporal Ted Ditchburn, the Spurs and England Goal Keeper. Six weeks later we were told the married men were to train in England but the single men were to go to Canada, then cross as civilians into the USA to train under the new Arnold Scheme. The married men left. We bachelors entrained for London, then by coach across London, - not to Euston or Kings Cross but to Waterloo.
You’ve guessed it. The married men went abroad and the single men trained in England.
I started flying Tiger Moths at the Brooklands Flying Club at Fairoaks, now designated
No. 18 EFTS. Quite a different training programme compared with the USA training.

brakedwell

4th Feb 2010, 17:45

A good friend of mine is the goddaughter of Hermann Goering. Unfortunately she lost contact with him many years ago!

regle

4th Feb 2010, 19:16

Welcome to the Forum. I am so sorry but I cannot recall meeting you at either of those reunions but it is not surprising as there were so many people there as usual. I understand perfectly what you are getting at and I am sure that you will understand when I suggest that you get in touch with me by means of a private message with details and I will put you in the picture. I hope that you enjoy the Forum and I am sure that you must have some more to give to it. All the best, Reg

regle

4th Feb 2010, 19:20

You have foxed me completely ! Surely you must have meant "Fortunately" ? Regle

fredjhh

4th Feb 2010, 20:28

Reg, new to this site and have not worked out private mails. I was mouldering in a Gestapo Gaol when you joined 51. Tom Nelson introduced me to you at Wyton. See Page 83 of Snaith Days. Fred

brakedwell

4th Feb 2010, 21:10

You have foxed me completely ! Surely you must have meant "Fortunately" ? Regle

Regle, perhaps I should have said it is unfortunate because she is unable to shed any new light on those momentous times.

fredjhh

5th Feb 2010, 09:16

Rmventuri. I sent a message back to the Squadron by pigeon when I was shot down in 1943. In Dulag Luft a member of my Squadron said he had heard that I had sent the message home. I assume he had heard it from the Snaith Pigeon Corporal, John Hall who, years later, told me had retrieved my pigeon with its message. No mention of it was made to our families.
A bomb-aimer from my crew, was sick and was shot down with another crew two weeks later. He stayed with the Resistance for fourteen months. I have seen a copy of a message, sent by radio, to say he was alive and well, but this was never conveyed to his family. He was posted Missing believed killed, and the King sent a message of condolences to his father!

regle

5th Feb 2010, 09:55

.....who is the Goddaughter of Herman Goering. I think that it is a good time to start a "line " book in this Forum and that is a good start to it. I am sure that many of you will not know what a line book is so I await some examples. "The flak was so heavy that we put the wheels down and taxied on it " springs to mind and ,possibly , makes further explanations unnecessary. Regle

brakedwell

5th Feb 2010, 10:18

Regle, all I am prepared to say on a public forum is that she is the same age as me and was borne near Cologne. Her christian name is Renate and she is married to a (retired) BA Captain. I could add another entry to the Line Book: "I also have a good friend with a stepbrother (surname von Mellenthin), who is the Godson of Adolph H!" You can google that :ok:

cliffnemo

5th Feb 2010, 10:33

FRED.

Excellent, keep it going. we want to hear about training in the U.K . We have had plenty of posts on the training in Canada. and the U.S of A. and hope we will get many more, but very little on other areas.

regle

5th Feb 2010, 10:40

OK . I give in. I suggest that you adopt a new pseudonym . How about "Lineshooter" ? To leave you.. the classic "..and there I was , nought feet and upside down..." Regle

brakedwell

5th Feb 2010, 12:28

To leave you.. the classic "..and there I was , nought feet and upside down... and nothing on the clock but the makers name ?

BEagle

5th Feb 2010, 13:16

Mention of Göring and Hitler reminds me of the comment allegedly made by Hitler at some dinner, when der dicke Hermann was seen stuffing his greedy face with Schweinehachse:

"It is true. Pigs really do eat their own".

One gets the impression that the fat Reichsmarschall Göring was probably more tolerated than trusted by Hitler.

My only acquaintance with people from that background was meeting the son of an infamous Nazi. A charming old gent, about whom the statement "Don't visit the sins of the father on the son" was never more true.

His father was a real swine though. SS-Obergruppenführer Reinhard Heydrich, Deputy Reich-Protector of Bohemia and Moravia and one of the chief architects of the holocaust.

cliffnemo

5th Feb 2010, 15:31

EH BY GUM (As in Gosh) . He says these ex Luftwaffe chaps are 'High in the eighties but O.K. .

th February 2010, 16:42
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Re: LUFTWAFFE 39/45
Hallo Cliff
ich glaube ich kann Ihnen mit 2 Adressen dienen.

Christoph Dezius
Kirchnebenstr. 22
65375 Oestrich-Winkel
06723-87422
ehemals Ltn. im JG 2

Heinz Borgmann
Mainz-Gonsenheim
Oranienhof
06131 - 9711940
ehermals Bordfunker im NJG 4

Beide sind hoch in den Achtzigern, aber geistig noch ganz ok.

Gruß Rüdiger
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Re: LUFTWAFFE 39/45
Hallo Karsten Viel Dank. muss schreiben, da ich nicht das gute Deutsche sehr spreche. Ich bin 87 Jahre alt auch. Wissen Sie, wenn sie viel Englisch sprechen., ich konnten sie telefonieren Respekt Klippe = (CLIFF)

th February 20

fredjhh

5th Feb 2010, 17:05

It seems that pupils in America had one instructor throughout the course.
I flew with five instructors, plus the CFI for the final check at EFTS.
With three other pupils I was allocated to Sgt. Barton, probably the best instructor at the school. A pre-war Regular Officer, he had objected to being transferred to the Fleet Air Arm and had resigned his commission. At that time the RAF would only admit him as a Sgt. but he got his commission back later on. After one week, Barton was Absent Sick and his pupils were left in limbo with no instructor. It was only after another week that other Instructors took pity on us and all four took us flying in turn, - but they each had to go over the exercises we had done before. At eight hours I was pronounced “fit for solo,” but the next instructor wanted to see “what I could do.” Barton returned and sent me Solo the following day.
At half way into the six week course his pupils had only 20 hours out of the 50 required, so we were put back “half a course.” We finished ground school on time and so managed to get extra hours in the air in the last three weeks. I finished EFTS with 35 hours dual and 33 hours Solo.
Two pupils flew in the morning while the other two had ground instruction. The following day this was reversed. In a lesson on navigation a young Danish officer, Sub Lieutenant Pedersen, appeared by my side. He watched me draw a line on my chart then took my pencil from me and drew a much fainter line. “Don’t press. Let the pencil do the work. Much easier to rub out without leaving a mess on your chart.”
I knew Pederson had flown a Hornet Moth from Denmark but it was many years before I found the full story.
Sub-Lieutenant Sneum had found the Moth stripped down in a barn in Denmark. The farmer agreed to sell, “provided it went West.” Sneum recruited Pedersen, and De Havilland’s agent in Denmark provided the plans to rebuild the Moth. They ran the engine once then prepared to take off at dawn. In flight Sneum refuelled the side tank by leaning out with a petrol can and a funnel. Pederson flew from the right hand seat while hanging onto Sneum with his left hand. Full stories are in Google.
Pedersen went on to fly Spitfires and Typhoons, but Sneum returned by parachute to Denmark to carry on his spying activities. Neither was decorated by Britain or Denmark. Fred
P.S How do I find a members' E-mail address?

Vitesse

5th Feb 2010, 20:39

fredjhh,

If you wish to contact a forum member, simply click on the user name next to their post. This will give several options, one of which is "send a private message". A private message or PM is similar to a normal post, but received only by the intended recipient. The recipient is notified of a new PM when visiting the forum and (I believe) by email.

There is also an option to email. This will go directly to the address they have registered with the pprune forum and you do not need to know it beforehand.

I am enjoying your posts, by the way.

Hope this is of some help.

fredjhh

6th Feb 2010, 15:37

The Brooklands Flying Club was also the home of The Metropolitan Police and the London Transport Flying Club, and several of their members were retained as Instructors.
The Chief instructor at the airfield was made a Squadron Leader then, later, a Wing Commander. Wing Commander Arthur stayed on flying at Fairoaks well after the age of 80.
Ground instruction was given by retired officers as civilians. There was virtually no drill or parades and we lived in one two local manor houses. I was billeted in Stanners Hill Manor and we dined in the airfield clubhouse. The dining rom was L shaped with the pupils in the larger end, and the instructors, Officers and NCOs, dining together in the shorter end. The food was good and served by civilian mess waiters.
Armament instruction was in the hands of a retired Chief Petty Officer “Billy” Bishop. With a large cheerful face and a mass of white hair, he looked a like Bishop until he opened his mouth when out came the filthiest stories we young innocents had ever heard. He was supposed to teach us the assembly of the Lewis Gun, but he was full of reminiscences of World War One when he flew as an Observer. He told us of using a Service revolver or a Lee Enfield rifle from the rear cock-pit in air fighting, and dropping bombs by hand over the side onto Constantinople.
One pupil already attached to our flight was Sgt. Charles P....... who spent his days in a deck chair, smoking exotic cigarettes in a long holder. Cadets were not allowed mechanical transport, but Charles had two cars and lived outside in a rented house.
The Flight Commander, F/Lt Cubitt, had difficulty starting his Austin 7 one day. Charles removed his cigarette holder and said, “Take my Buick, Sir.” “Thanks P.........” One day I asked him what his status was, and Charles said he was amassing 150 hours on Tiger Moths and would then go directly to an instructors’ school. I think he may have had a private pilot’s licence and have a been a Member of the Civil Air Guard. A year later I picked up a copy of “The Tatler” and saw a picture of Sgt. Charles P....... dining at The Lansdowne with the Honourable Lady ......
I doubt If I would have got past the doorman in my Sergeant’s stripes!

fredjhh

6th Feb 2010, 21:40

Thank you for your advice. I have sent a message to Regle. We will see if he finds it. Fredjhh.

fredjhh

7th Feb 2010, 22:11

My first two lessons on the Tiger Moth were of 20 minutes, described as Air Experience, and 30 minutes where I was allowed to handle the controls. Next came 45 minutes when Barton asked me if my seat harness was tight. Then he inverted the Moth and I fell out! Well it seemed as if I did, but it was only about half an inch. He told me to tighten up and then proceeded to do every aerobatic in the book, - and some of his own invention; loops, half rolls of the top, slow rolls, inverted glides, tail slides, stall turns, and spins. He finished up with the falling leaf when, despite the tighter belt, I did feel i was being flung out.
When we landed, he said, “ What did you like best?” I said, “ Stall turns and slow rolls, Sir.” “Not Sir, I am a Sergeant. You’ll do.”
I continued to address him as Sir, in the air. One or two pupils were very sick and had to clean out the rear cock-pit, as prescribed by the unofficial law, "Those who make it, clean it." They were given the same test later and some continued to fly, but some were still sick and were scrubbed.
I noticed in an earlier post the “Mary Pickford” mnenomic before starting. Barton taught me T, M, P, F, F, S; and U, M, P, F, T, S before landing and said it would serve for any aircraft.
Our flying zone was between Windsor Castle and the river Thames to the North, and the Vickers Factory at Weybridge to the South, from which barrage balloons flew above the lower clouds and made a good homing point. The intricate pattern of fields below made it essential to learn the local map in detail.
My worst experience in the Moth came when I was preparing to do some aerobatics above the clouds at 5,000ft. I had a good look all round then started a loop. As I pulled up after the loop a Spitfire dived down just ahead of me and I hit his slip stream. My aircraft was thrown onto its back and then into a spin, - very disconcerting. The Spitfire was probably practising an attack and did not think about the effect on my light aeroplane.
Many of the Moths had small bomb racks fitted and, once a month, the Instructors had dive bombing practice with 11 lb smoke bombs on the Pill Box on the airfield. In the event of a German invasion they were supposed to attack the invasion barges with small explosive bombs! The nearest point on the coast was about 40 miles away, but it would have been a one-way ticket!
One day I arrived at the Flight hut at 7-30 and F/Lt Cubitt told me to have an aircraft started up, “To do a weather check.” Once airborne he told me to fly over The Hog’s Back. He cut the engine and said, “ Forced landing! Put me down in that field to the left with the hay stack.” I landed and I was told to turn back ready for take off. Then Cubitt jumped out and said, “I will only be a minute or two,” and proceeded to fill a bag with mushrooms.
When I went to the mess for breakfast at 9-00, a waiter appeared at my side with a large plate of cooked mushrooms. “ Mr H.........d ? With F/Lt Cubitt’s compliments, Sir.”

brakedwell

8th Feb 2010, 13:43

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c32/sedgwickjames/aviation/Screenshot2010-02-08at143959.png
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c32/sedgwickjames/aviation/Screenshot2010-02-08at142901.png
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c32/sedgwickjames/aviation/Screenshot2010-02-08at142928.png

andyl999

8th Feb 2010, 14:45

Reg as you know always pokes fun at me for having more fighter books than bomber books.

So I was just reading my latest "Battle of Britain" book and came across this.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v616/andyl999/reg/RAF.jpg

errr I think I would rather be a fighter pilot when I grow up?

BEagle

8th Feb 2010, 16:45

errr I think I would rather be a fighter pilot when I grow up?

You can't do both!

andyl999

9th Feb 2010, 07:51

Not sure how to take your comment Beagle, I was hoping to lighten up the discussion?

BEagle

9th Feb 2010, 08:05

It was the response given by an American fighter pilot to some little lad who said that he wanted to be a fighter pilot when he grew up.

"Son, you can't do both!"

Quite well known in aircrew circles.

forget

9th Feb 2010, 08:06

andy :confused: It's a joke. A very old one at that. Or am I missing something?

Fubaar

9th Feb 2010, 09:56

...goes with the long WW2 poem about different types of aircrew that contains the lines:

"You can tell a navigator by his maps and charts and such
You can tell a fighter pilot - but you can't tell him much!"

(Cliff [or anyone], do you know the whole poem? Love to see it here in its entirety.)

Molemot

9th Feb 2010, 12:35

Fighter pilots? Found this on the web...

Fighter Pilot University: Fighter Pilot University (http://www.fighterpilotuniversity.com/page.cfm/Fighter-Pilot-University)

regle

9th Feb 2010, 14:14

I can see that the quotation could be misread as meaning that "you are too dim to become a fighter pilot but I am sure that it was meant to tell you that you could'nt become a fighter pilot and depend on growing older. That is the danger of these two edged quotations. Reg

regle

9th Feb 2010, 14:17

Cliff will probably tell you that the original recipient of "you can't tell him much" referred to one of Trenchard's beloved "Brats". or Halton boys. Regle

cliffnemo

9th Feb 2010, 15:30

On a 'fizzer' again, Glass House next. ?

Managed to obtain the addresses of a wartime Luftwaffe pilot, and a wireless operator ,but wil have to ring them as only addresses suplied.

These were obtained on 12 O/clock high, but as usual I 'rushed in where angels fear to tread'. I posted using the German language , when it should have been posted using English. They were quite polite and I apologized, so think everything is O.K.
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Re: LUFTWAFFE 39/45
Hallo Karsten Viel Dank. muss schreiben, da ich nicht das gute Deutsche sehr spreche. Ich bin 87 Jahre alt auch. Wissen Sie, wenn sie viel Englisch sprechen., ich konnten sie telefonieren Respekt Klippe = (CLIFF)

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Re: LUFTWAFFE 39/45
Please post in English. This is not a German language forum except where posting original texts.

Yes Reg the phrase was coined circa ? to 1939 , but they deserved it, they were the creme de la creme . They qualified in engines , airframes , electrics, in fact , everything to do with the aircraft..When the war started,
the trades were separated, and and the courses shortened.

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I posted using the German language and evidently this is 'verboten'
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Re: LUFTWAFFE 39/45
I think placing personal addresses in a public forum is not correct. Why not send them via private message? Just my opinion.
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Re: LUFTWAFFE 39/45
Sorry

but the questin was also made in german, so I have answerd in this language. It is more comfortable for me.

Mr.Borgmann was WOP in NJG 4
Mr. Dezius Pilot im JG 2

Gruß Rüdiger

AS MY OLD AUNT KATE SAID 'THE MAN WHO NEVER MADE A MISTAKE NEVER MADE NOWT. '
[/QUOTE]

fredjhh

9th Feb 2010, 15:36

Google ... Songs, You can tell a navigator
fredjhh

You Can Tell a Fighter Pilot

(This score available as ABC, SongWright, PostScript, PNG, or PMW, or a MIDI file)
Pennywhistle notation and Dulcimer tab for this song is also available

You Can Tell a Fighter Pilot

By the ring around his eyeball
You can tell a bombardier;
You can tell a bomber pilot
By the spread around his rear,
You can tell a navigator
By his sextants, maps and such
You can tell a fighter jockey
BUT YOU CAN'T TELL HIM MUCH!

fredjhh

9th Feb 2010, 17:15

At the end of the course I had logged 35 hours dual and 33 hours solo, with 8 hours on the Link Trainer, and we were posted to 14 SFTS at Cranfield. At Paddington the RTO said,
“14 SFTS are now at Lyneham. I know. I moved them two weeks ago!” So we entrained for Wootton Bassett.
Lyneham was a new grass field with a perimeter track, two hangars, new tarmac roads and temporary buildings, surrounded by a sea of yellow mud. We were in billets dotted around in fields, mostly with cattle which had churned the mud by the field gate to a depth of over a foot. We wore wellingtons most of the time, no parades, and carried our shoes out to the Oxfords to put on inside the aircraft. The wellingtons were put in sacks in the rear.
We rarely wore Flying Boots which were of black leather with green canvas inserts at the sides; the best flying boots we ever wore.
The billets were on either side of a corridor with two beds in a room. There was no electricity, but paraffin lamps with a weekly oil allowance which gave us about one hour a night, so we had to buy candles. Each room had a little coal stove but a very miserly coal ration, so raids on the coal dump became quite common. One cold water tap per site had been left in the ditch, so we usually shaved there to avoid the crowds in the ablutions on camp. There was only the overcrowded NAFFI in which to sit in the evening, so stayed in the huts where we could brew up, with plenty of milk from the cows nearby. We rarely moved off the camp, except on a day off when we hitched into Calne.
The previous course greeted us with, “for the first two weeks we had sausage meat at every meal, - except on the second Friday lunch, when we had sausages!” A very famous sausage factory was nearby in Calne.
Two static Airspeed Oxfords were jacked up in a hangar and here we had intensive exercises, in every aspect and emergency of flying. A final test, blindfolded, of 15 exercises had to be passed before being taken out to the aircraft for the first flight.
My instructor was a young Australian, P/O Wheaton. We taxied out to take -off and Wheaton said, “First check there are no aircraft in the circuit or the landing approach.”
I looked to my left and said, “One Oxford on the approach, NO! TWO, “ and at that moment the second Oxford ploughed into the first. There was a shower of what looked like falling leaves, then both aircraft fell on to the other side of the peri track, killing all four on board.
We had no radio, just one Gosport Tube so the instructor could speak to his pupil. but not the other way round. The pupil just shouted when necessary.
Wheaton said, “Turn into wind and line up for take off. Now open the throttles gently, counter-acting any swing.” So we took off, but there was no longer a Fire wagon nor an Ambulance.
Quite illegal, but who argues with his instructor?
We settled down to a 3 month course of twin engine flying, with 50 hours dual and 50 hours solo with 8 night landings. fredjhh

regle

11th Feb 2010, 20:34

Quotation......After seeing two Oxfords fall out of the sky on the approach,whilst you were waiting for takeoff, you took off making sure that you kept it nice and straight, without any comment to your Instructor... Fred you are a man out of my own heart.. I would like to bet that the Gestapo got nothing out of you and were glad to see you back in your own cell ! I am proud to have been in the same Squadron, Reg

regle

11th Feb 2010, 20:48

I forgot to bring to your notice a bit of "gen" concerning your story of the Danish Pilot who flew a Hornet Moth back to England.. At the time it rang a bell in my creaking mind... I had read, about a year ago, a book by Ken Follet and think that it was called "The flight of the Hornet Moth " and it was a very good yarn which must have been based on your character. As there is more than one Follet and I am not sure of the title perhaps someone else can enlighten us. It was very well written with very authentic details and very much "with it" with details of Occupied Denmark and the virtual rebuilding of the Hornet Moth which was rotting in a barn. I am sure that I got it from my local library so it is still in print and well worth reading. regle

JAVELINBOY

11th Feb 2010, 21:40

Reg

Google search on the title you quoted revealed the following at Amazon.co.uk

Paperback: 300 pages
Publisher: Pan General Fiction; New edition edition (2 May 2003)
Language English
ISBN-10: 0330490680
ISBN-13: 978-0330490689

speke2me

11th Feb 2010, 22:36

Given the wonderful contributions of Cliff and Regle, we now have fredjhh as well. This is amazing stuff, and I have yet to enjoy the recollections of the chap flying that beast of a Typhoon.

Thanks to you all and please keep it up.

Regle: here is a Wiki link I found about 'Shrage Musik'

Schräge Musik - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%A4ge_Musik)

- interesting to note that apparently in early 1944 a German night-ace with 61 'victories' bought it when a Halifax he shot up fell directly onto his HE 219.

And fredjhh: interesting that you first flew from Ainsdale sands. I live not too far away from there, and the first flight I ever took in a light aircraft (Cessna) was from that very strip in about 1990. I was not flying it, it was a short jolly for my young sons at the time. Somebody was doing short pleasure trips from there, an 'hours building' young pilot as I recall.

:)

Blacksheep

12th Feb 2010, 06:49

...one of Trenchard's beloved "Brats". If he loved us so much, he had a very strange way of showing it. ;)

fredjhh

12th Feb 2010, 08:48

To Reg and Javelinboy.
Thanks for the information about the book.
Sneum and Pedersen could say nothing in 1941, but The Telegraph had a colour supplement some years ago,which I still have, giving a 3 or 4 page story of the building and the flight. Sneum's exploits as a secret agent, before and after the flight, were also amazing.

fredjhh

12th Feb 2010, 09:01

After seeing two Oxfords fall out of the sky.
We were very young and innocent in those days!
On the first day of flying,- a fatal crash, - we probably felt must be normal!
The instructor did not blink an eyelid and made no reference to it during the flight. One of my pals was within fifty yards and he held one of the pilots in his arms as the lad died. Ivan's tunic was covered with blood and he got a rocket from the Flight Commander for approaching the crash. He got another from stores when he applied for a new tunic!

cliffnemo

12th Feb 2010, 10:54

SPEKE2ME.

Ah Ainsdale beach.
Below a photo of my beach buggy on Ainsdale beach, taken about two years ago. Roll on the summer. (Yes I know, but there is a pic of and aircraft on it)

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/BBSPORT180-1.jpg

AG25

12th Feb 2010, 11:57

Hi there,
I've been researching my late fathers service record and it appears he was part of the Arnold Scheme in class 42B. He then went on active service in India. His name was Allan Gent.
He left me with a number of photographs taken at Camden and Macon (I think), and in particular at Camden where he named 4 good friends of his as David Horlsey, Peter Nash, Ron Pearson, and George Lock.
If anybody has information on these pilots, then please put them in touch with me as I have some photographs they may be interested in.
Also, in anybody knew Allan either in the USA or in India, please let me have any information you have.
I also have a booklet called 'Cochran Control' which was produced for each class, but the copy I have is for Class 42A, and it shows photographs of all cadets. If anybody is interested, let me know.
Many Thanks.
Andrew Gent

thegypsy

12th Feb 2010, 12:48

AG25

Don't want to be too morbid but I did a search at CWGC and all four names shown as killed in action. Could of course be different people to the ones you mention but with same names.

fredjhh

12th Feb 2010, 21:24

There were 44 NCOs on the course, but 8 Army Officers, all 2nd Lieutenants, joined us and mixed in very easily; though one or two "disappeared" before we finished. When pupils failed to live up to standards they left the course the same day and, very often, we had no prior warning to say good-bye. I had five hours dual, then a 20 minute Check from the Flight Commander who sent me Solo. The Oxford was a delight to fly and I enjoyed every minute. All landings had to be on 3 points and I never saw aircraft wheeled in on the two main wheels until after the war, - except Liberators.
The autumn and winter weather were the main hindrance to flying, with frequent mists rolling up from the Bristol Channel. The instructors saved low flying exercises for these days. If flying was impossible the instructors passed paper and pencils round and collected a shilling from each pupil. Then one would say, "Draw a map of the local flying area within, say, twenty, thirty or more miles from Lyneham." After 15 minutes the papers were marked by the instructors, giving points for all distinguishing landmarks in the area. We received our papers back, showing our marks and their criticisms, and the pupil with the best mark won the kitty. When flying dual at any time the instructor would ask, "What course and distance to base?" It was an awful 'black' to be lost.
Our Oxfords still had no radios, and communication was by Gosport tube. In formation flying we used the old hand signals devised during WW1.
Without instructors at our sides pupils flew closer than the specified distance and some got too close. One pupil chewed No 1's wing tip off and also lost his starboard airscrew. Both managed to land safely and got away with it as an "accident." A lot of flying was done under the hood and we had a relief landing strip at Wroughton where we practised blind landings. The instructor gave directions to line up at 1,000 feet and said when the aircraft was above what might have been the Outer Marker. Then he called "Green, Yellow or Red," on the descent, until "Inner Marker", then "Land or Overshoot." There was a 60 foot delay on the Oxford's altimeter which gave the height to close the throttles and round out to land.
One morning in the armament room, when we were stripping and assembling Brownings, an airman opened the door and announced the King was in the building. The Sergeant Instructor did not have time to decide whether it was fact or a joke when the King arrived, surrounded by his entourage. I was at the front bench and the King asked if I had started flying. Before I could answer, Air Commodore Critchley stepped in and told him we were at the second stage of training. King George nodded and said, "Enjoying it? A great sensation, isn't it?" Then they were gone. All the overseas instructors were presented to the King, and Wheaton was like a dog with two tails. fredjhh

Icare9

13th Feb 2010, 08:10

It's feeling like Saturday mornings at the cinema waiting to see what the next episode will bring - another "cliff" hanger???!!!

fredjhh

13th Feb 2010, 11:05

Thank you to Reg and JAVELINBOY. I have ordered from Amazon "The Flight of the Hornet Moth," - new, in paperback at 99 pence. Cheaper than an 8 miles drive each way to the Library and parking charges! fredjhh::)

AG25

13th Feb 2010, 11:21

Thanks Gypsy, I didn't know there was a database like the CWGC. I looked also, and sadly, 2 of the guys were indeed casualties of the war in 1943. However, Ronald C Pearson and W. Peter Nash were not. Any knowledge of these 2 survivors would be nice. Thanks.

regle

13th Feb 2010, 13:36

A25G, I was in the class of 42a at Cochran Field , Macon. Ga. and should be one of the pilots who were photographed. Look in your PM. Regle

fredjhh

13th Feb 2010, 16:09

George Cooke was an elderly pupil (approaching thirty), married and with a young daughter. He was a real countryman and a joy to be with on a country walk for his knowlege of birds, animals and plants. George arrived at the camp gates one day in a civilian car, from which he descended with his open parachute draped over his arm. He said he had flown into a bird which had broken his windscreen and thrown his Oxford into a spin. Oxfords were said to be un-recoverable from a spin, -at least, that is what pupils were told. Probably they took far too long to recover from the heights at which they were generally flown.
George described how he had managed to get out of his seat with great difficulty and claw his way to the rear door. He described, very graphically, the tremendous G forces he had to fight to reach the door, (later we found Oxfords fitted with a rope on the port side from the cockpit to the door.) He had managed to jettison the door and jump.
Later, an irate farmer appeared at the camp asking for compensation for one cow killed by the crashing 'plane. From the height at which George had been flying there was some doubt about the flock of birds, and one theory was that he had stalled the Oxford and that the fire extinguisher had fallen off its bracket and ejected foam all over the cock-pit. George had mistaken the foam for feathers, which he said had filled the cock-pit. The instructors presented George with a "Bill".

To:- L.A.C. George Cooke.
Statement of Account.

To One Parachute Ripcord Handle 2s..
To one COW (dead) £ 40.. 0 .. 0
To One Oxford A/c (lost) £3,000.. 0 .. 0
Total £3,040..2s..6d

Will L.A.C. Cooke pay cash, or have it deducted from his pay?
Signed....................................S/Ldr. Accounts.

fredjhh

13th Feb 2010, 16:18

Sorry about The Statement of Account.
It was neatly and centrally arranged but was printed squeezed up the left! fredjhh.

regle

15th Feb 2010, 22:32

In 1960, six years after joining Sabena, I was a Convair and DC 6 Captain flying their European Sector which included the Near Middle East..
I was very happy and we moved in to a larger House. We had a lovely big Garden so large that the Landlord built four houses on the end of it and still left us an orchard and a large garden. He and his Wife told us that they had , several times, hidden Allied airmen in the attic. His many stories were thrilling and I felt very humble at the courage they had shown as they had faced torture and certain execution if they were caught. They had both been absent working each day and had to warn the hidden airmen not to flush the toilet whilst they were away in case they were heard by passers by who would know that the house should have been empty.
We had some very happy years there but eventually we took the plunge and bought ten "Ares" (About a quarter of an acre) of land in nearby Wezembeek and commissioned the housebuilding dept. of the big Department Store "A l'Innovation " to build us a nice big detached house .
Wezembeek was a rural commune about twenty minutes from the aerodrome and our new address was Ave de la Maison Communale. Literally "Town Hall St." One of our British friends remarked that it was not a very preposessing address and I, jokingly, remarked that I was going to have it changed. No longer than two weeks passed when I got a letter from the local authorities to tell us that "due to local demand" the name of the street was going to be changed to "Ave des Violettes ". Jimmy Bourne, my friend was very impressed and made some sort of remark of "coming up smelling of violets ".

The plot at the rear of where the house was to stand sloped down to the back and also across the width so I got one of the Belgian Pilots who ran a small building business as a sideline and had a bulldozer to come along and level it out for me. The only day that he could arrange to do this was a Sunday and we had just finished the whole plot when along came the local Gendarme in response to some angry neighbours who accused me of ruining their Sunday siesta. We settled amicably with a few beers and the promise of a crate or two for the neighbours. Hardly an auspicious start but worse was to follow. The Department Store "Innovation" , whose builders were constructing our new home suffered one of the worst fires in Belgian history, and was virtually gutted with a horrendous loss of life. Sometimes the only clue to a victim's identity was the discovery of an unclaimed car parked in the centre of the city. Many tourists shopping in the store were killed and the first idea of their identity would be when enquiries were received from anxious relatives in other countries who had not received news of them for some weeks. All records of contractors, clients, proposed timetables,estimates, payments etc, were lost and it speaks volumes for the determination and organisation of the Company that we only suffered a very small delay in the completion of our house.

We moved early December 1967 and the day could not have been worse. It was bitterly cold and the driveway to our old house was covered with black ice. Although the new house was only a few minutes away the removal men would not start work until I had warmed them with a few brandies. To complicate matters I had arranged to take most of the family with me on a wonderful trip to Nairobi and Johannesburg staying a week in each city, long enough for safari and sightseeing tours.

Sabena had chartered a Sabena Boeing 707 to a German Tour Company who required the crew to stay with the aircraft for the whole of the charter which embraced Xmas so I arranged tickets for the whole family, except for Peter who was married by now and could not get away from his work. Sabena was a wonderful company in that respect and there was never a problem to arrange tickets for family. Unfortunately the family had to leave first as I had to meet up with the tour in Nairobi after taking an aeroplane to Jo'burg so they set off leaving me in the empty new house and we all met up in Nairobi where we hired two mini-buses to transport us and the whole crew all around the Kenyan and Tanzanian National Reserve

That is enough for today and I see that I have missed my transition from propellors to jets so will have more to tell you when I come back from Nairobi !

Icare9

16th Feb 2010, 08:24

Blimey Reg! Is there any part of 20th Century history you DIDN'T have a hand in? Even building a house links to a catastrophic world headline!
We haven't yet heard about your visit to Dallas when you stood on a small hill next to some chap who told you he was shooting pigeons!!
What about those 4 young Scousers you met in Hamburg and bought a meal for?

Seriously, it's the matter of fact way, explaining about cars being left and tourist families making enquiries that gave clues to some of the identities that brings a depth to the account that we just don't get from news headlines.... another interesting post. It really is good to see so many people now participating, helping bring the events of those times back to life.

Now waiting for getting a JET pilots wings!! Converting from props to the 707, that should be interesting. All the best!

regle

16th Feb 2010, 13:03

I did'nt meet those 4 young scousers in Hamburg although there were plenty of very interesting people all around the place , especially a certain Reeperbahn when I was there on the Berlin Air lift in 1949. I never met them but went to the same school as Paul and John, the Liverpool Institute, many years before them.
I don't know what it is but things seem to happen to me that tie up with some international and national occurrence or personage and seems to have followed me all my life. I don't actively seek it out but I seem to be in the right spot (or the wrong spot) at the right time. I am happy that these threads are being of interest to you all and have increased my circle of friends enormously since I started . It seems incredible that I have only been "Computerwise" since just over a year ago and have my beloved family , especially my daughter, Feeka, to thank for wearing me down as I steadily refused to learn until I was over eightysix. I can thoroughly recommend it as a therapic approach to old age. Reg

cliffnemo

16th Feb 2010, 14:01

As usual ''Flying by the seat of my pants', or is it a case of 'fools rush in where angels fear to tread'. In other words I have just sent six emails to J.G wartime pilots ( M.E 109 ?) , whose email addresses were sent to me by a gentleman in Germany. The emails contained the letter , in German, previously posted here.

The recipients (I hope) are from JG1 / 2/3/ 51/ 52/ 54/ units. and , I think ex M.E 109 pilots.

JG =
# Jagdgeschwader 1 (World War II), a unit of the Luftwaffe in World War II; also known as Jagdgeschwader 1
Fingers crossed , or knock on wood.

I any of the above mentioned J.G pilots have logged on since receiving the email we would be very pleased to hear from you, if it is only 'Hallo'

Yes REG, I agree with you entirely . I feel as if I among friends, and doing something that is appreciated. With regards to computers I am also glad that I learned to operate a computer, but in my case I became interested sometime ago and spent a year (seven hours per week)on an A.S level followed by another year on an A level course. But now that we have Windows it is much easier, and much of the knowledge gained is of no use.

fredjhh

16th Feb 2010, 21:36

Reg.
You mention the Liverpool Institute.
Did you ever meet Don McClelland?
He may have been a year or two senior to you, but he was my great friend in training until we parted after OTU. Mac flew on 78 Squadron, finishing his tour in March 1943. He instructed at Rufforth for the next 18 months, then did a second tour on Mosquitos. After the war he flew with the Air Experience Flights of the ATC at Hatfield. He also served in the Auxiliary No 1 Maritime Squadron, finishing as Wing Commander. In civilian life he worked as a Lloyds Underwriter in Air Insurance. Fredjhh

regle

16th Feb 2010, 21:48

Rufforth, yes I went through Rufforth in May 1943 when I was trained on Halifaxes and met my crew as I had been on Mossies before that. I cannot recall meeting Don McCall but I was not yet commissioned at that time . I was great friends with F/O Jeff Raymond, my Instructor and also Sqdn. Ldr. Renaut, my D Flight Commander. Can't say that I remember Don from the "Innie" either but it was a big school. All the best , Regle

speke2me

17th Feb 2010, 00:22

Now come on Cliff - a beach buggy - at 87 years old?

Seriously though, should I even be surprised in this unique thread?

Not only are the main contributors in fairly elder years, but the recollections they share are detailed and most enjoyable. Not to mention the total lucidity and lovely prose of the posts. Oh and the apparent mastery of computers/internet in order to deliver them.

Despite all the years, your capabilities still abound. But then again, RAF pilots in WW2 were never just 'ordinary Joes', as your posts admirably demonstrate.

I'm afraid you 'old farts' are making some of us 'young farts' feel quite humbled :)

And bloody good on you. As someone else posted, it's almost like waiting for the next installment at the cinema. I'm sure many readers of this thread will agree.

It's all appreciated, keep it coming :)

fredjhh

17th Feb 2010, 19:47

Cross country exercises were done solo, then in pairs with one pupil as the navigator. He had a Bigsworth board on his knees to hold his chart, and a Dalton Computer, plus the usual Douglas Protractor, pencils, ruler and dividers. Very awkward keeping track of these items, as well as the plot on the chart. The route had about four turning points and the chief difficulty, as navigator, was to see your pilot stuck to the settings you gave him.
I was usually paired with my pal Ivan H....d, later to be recommended for a Victoria Cross on Bomber Command, (he received an Immediate CGM). Flying straight and level bored Ivan, who much preferred to fly above clouds and practice “landings” on the cloud tops. The following day we changed roles and flew a different route.
There were always clouds and, as most flying was above them, it could be rather hairy getting down at times. The ATA Pilots were prohibited from flying above clouds. We saw a great deal of these men and women of the ATA who collected and delivered Spitfires, Hurricanes and Wellingtons, to and from a unit at Lyneham, which “tropicalised” aircraft. Our favourite ATA pilot was a slim, dark haired Polish girl who avoided the muddy airfield, preferring to land and take off Spitfires on the perimeter track. Her “English’ became non-existent when the Flying Controller tried to explain that she should not do that.
One day, doing my stint as Duty Pilot in the Watch Office, an ATA officer landed a Wellington and reported in. The AC2 clerk booking him in said, “What name , Sir?”
“Mollison.” “What initial, Sir?” “J. J for Jim.”
The name of the famous record breaking pilot meant nothing to the Erk.
Mollison asked for transport to the Officers’ Mess and he was very indignant when I told him that Station Standing Orders were, “No Transport.”
Bombing training was based on the Mk IX bombsight using a white painted Camera Obscura in one corner of the dispersals. As there was no intercom, the pilot doing the bomb aiming lay down in the nose of the Oxford and guided the pilot by raising his legs. Left leg in the air meant. “Left,left.” Right leg raised was “Right.” Both legs raised meant meant “Steady.”
He clapped his ankles and dropped them for “Bombs gone.” We couldn’t work out a signal for, “Back a bit!”
The “Bombs” were Sashalite photo-flash bulbs in the 16 small bomb carriers under the wings. As each bulb was fired the bright flash was plotted on the table of the Camera Obscura. After allowing for height and wind vectors the accuracy of the bombing could be assessed. We dropped eight bombs then had to land to change over. The Oxford had too tight a cock-pit to change over in flight.
Occasional enemy intruders were still a hazard, even in day time flying. The only advice we were given was to get as low as possible and land if attacked. Low flying killed two Polish pupils on the senior course when they hit electricity cables, and two pilots on our course took the chimney of a cottage but landed safely. One night all pupils were roused from the huts and organised into search parties to look for an aircraft which had crashed on take off. Trudging over fields, ditches and hedges using our paraffin lanterns on a dismal November night was a hopeless task, only enlivened by a WAAF officer in her dressing gown, wanting to know the names of the airmen wandering round the WAAF billets at 2-00am. The search was called off and, at first light, an Oxford took off and spotted the wreckage with the instructor and pupil dead inside. fredjhh

aerobrat

18th Feb 2010, 06:58

cliffnemo, Regle, johnfairr fredjhh and all: I have enjoyed this thread enormously and scan regularly for new posts. It reallly deserves a "permanent" record. I picked up the reference to Halton Brats and just thought I'd draw attention to the In Memoriam pages on the Apprentices Association website www.oldhaltonians.co.uk (http://www.oldhaltonians.co.uk) . If you select "Tribute" then "Roll of Honour" you will find the names and operational details of the some 1600 Trenchard Brats who never came back between '39 & '45. I was chilled reading the list. I thank God I only had to be a "Cold War Warrior".

Please keep up the posts.

AG25

18th Feb 2010, 09:34

Sorry to go a bit 'off-thread', but one of the very few stories my father told me about his war service was that he occisionally flew in Bombers (he was a single engine pilot mainly) as a passenger, and he said that there was one particlar type of aircraft (a 'Manchester' ? I think he said), which had a terribly leaky fuel system, so much so that the pilot had to occassionally open the bomb bay doors and let out the fumes and even a collection of fuel that had gathered in the bottom of the aircraft !!
This story seems a bit far-fetched to me but I can't believe my father made it up!
So can anyone confirm that this did indeed happen with a certain type of bomber?
Thanks, Andy

fredjhh

18th Feb 2010, 15:37

This sound like a hoax. I cannot think any pilot would fly an aircraft with a known fuel leak. A friend flying Wellingtons told me that, when given Avro Manchester bombers to fly, the whole squadron petitioned the C.O. to have the Wellingtons back. The Manchester was deadly on one engine. After only a few weeks they were withdrawn and the Squadron was given Lancasters.
An Army Captain friend was sent on a course with the RAF and he was given a flight in the turret of a Defiant. He told me how worried he was, as the pilot emphasised that he must carefully count the rotations. If he exceeded six turns in one direction the turret would screw off! I told him the same applied to the dustbin under turret on Whitley 111s. fredjhh

regle

18th Feb 2010, 16:31

What a wonderful experience that first taste of Africa was. We sat outside our Lodge in the plains below Kilimanjiro on Xmas morning 1967 with the majestic mountain sparkling with it's white cap of snow whilst we enjoyed the lovely morning sunshine. Later we saw game by the thousand: Zebra, Wildebeeste, Impala, Hippo, Giraffe, Buffalo, Gazelle all in countless numbers stretching across the plains. At Lake Manyara the Flamingoes, in their thousands, coloured the surface of the huge lake in clouds of pink. We stopped our "combi" under a tree in the Amboseli where a sleeping lion, sprawled high along the branches above , completely ignored us. Once our combi got stuck so, foolishly ignoring the strict laws, we got out to push it when one of the crew spotted a rhinoceros gravely watching about two hundred yards away. Never did a re-entry to a combi take less time.!
One time we were stopped by a group of Masai warriors, complete with long spears. They had obviously been drinking and were very curious. They kept pointing to a soft toy lion that my daughter, Feeka, was holding. They were very impressed and kept saying "Simba" and making ominous jabbing thrusts towards the toy. Our native driver was scared stiff and had gone a peculiar shade of grey. They wanted water so we operated the windscreen wipers and they greedily drank from the windscreen leaving red ochre stains all over it. We eventually got rid of it by promising better water from the second combi coming up behind which they also stopped, scaring the rest of the crew but without any harm coming to them.

Before crossing from Kenya into Tanzania we had stayed the night at one of the many lodges. We had arranged for an early start next morning but our driver did not turn up. The other driver volunteered the information that ours had gone to visit his sister at a nearby village so we took the other combi and with me driving ,went to find him. We would have gone without him but the local law insisted upon a native driver when crossing the frontier. We came to a collection of low mud huts and one of the Stewards went inside one of them. A little later one "sister" emerged followed by several others all clutching their clothes sheepishly about them. There must have been half a dozen of them. Eventually a native came out and explained that our driver was still inside but could not
find his trousers and was searching for them. He eventually staggered out, still blind drunk, clutching a pair of trousers miles too big around him. He slept in the back until we came to the frontier when we propped him up behind the wheel and I manoeuvred the combi from his side. We crossed the Tanzanian frontier waved on by the guards as though a sleeping driver slumped over the wheel was a normal sight.

We all loved Nairobi with it's beautiful climate and fascinating native shops and markets but we had to press on to Johannesburg where we visited the repulsive, but fascinating Snake Park where I was well and truly put in my place. We were given a demonstration of "milking"a Cobra of it's venom by one of the South African rangers and I asked him, as he was holding the snake along a stick and withdrawing the venom, had he ever been bitten . "Yes" he said "when some stupid B.....d asks a silly B.....y question in the middle of the ....... " I won't go on any further but my face was very red. The last show that was put on for us was the very early Sunday Mine dancing put on by the "Welly" Dancers who were huge Zulu miners who gave a terrific show wearing their impressive feathered outfits but clad in their mineing Wellington boots which they stamped in the red clay with perfect rhythm and wonderful effect shouting their fearsome war cry and brandishing their spears in perfect unison.

Just a little bit more of "diversion" in my next episode and then I promise you back to the D.C.7c and further adventures... I liked the comment about the saturday morning movie serials. my Father always had a cinema so I was brought up on those terrific "Cliffhangers" that always had you anxiously awaiting the next one and always being disgusted at how they changed the script around to enable the rescue of the heroine. Be patient. Regle

AG25

18th Feb 2010, 16:45

I'm sure you are correct fredjhh, it seemed a bit unreal to me. I can only guess I misheard my father and maybe this was a one-off situation where the bomber developed a fuel leak during one specific flight. Thanks anyway, I have always been curious about the story.

AG25

18th Feb 2010, 16:51

Is it true that after pilots qualified from the Arnold Scheme, that they had the choice of what to do afterwards? Just how much choice was there? For example, could a pilot choose where in the world they wanted to go, or could they also choose whether they wanted to serve in a combative role or not?

regle

18th Feb 2010, 22:17

I can tell you what happened with the first course, 42A, that trained in the Southeast Air Training Center, USA and graduated on Jan. 3rd. 1942.
First of all some of the chaps were commissioned straight away and the rest and majority were given the rank of Sgt.Pilots. Most of the commissioned stayed on in the States and were made Instructors. A few were posted back to England with all the N.C.O Pilots. At no time were we asked what type of Command we wished to be posted to. A majority were entrained when landing in Scotland straight down to Bournemouth where we stayed in comfort in the luxurious Bath Hill Court Flats for nearly two months before being posted all over the place. Some of us were posted overseas straight away before the two months were up and a few who did not go to Bournemouth were given various postings. I cannot remember ever being asked what type of aircraft I woulkd like to fly or which Command I would like. Note that I can only speak for the majority of the graduates who were not commissioned. I was posted to an Advanced Flying Unit at a small grass aerodrome called Brize Norton to convert on to multi-engined Oxfords. My Sgt. Instructor, also from Blackpool, asked me how many hours I had and when I told him 200, there was a silence then he said "Well I have 30 so we'll sort something out. " At the completion of my course, for the first time I was asked to complete a form stating which type of aircraft I wished to fly and I put down "Heavy Bombers". and was promptly posted to a Blenheim Operational training unit No 17 at Upwood belonging to 2 Group Light Bombers. They were equipped with Blnheims, Bostons and Venturas. I was posted to 105 who were a Blenheim Sqdn. but were just receiving the very first Mosquito's . I never operated on Blenheims, Thank God. From memory very few , if anyone, got what they desired and I can remember a lot of very disappointed N.C.O Pilots leaving Bournemoth. Although the Mossie was a wonderful aircraft and I was thrilled to take part in many low level daylight "Ops" on them ,I had always wanted to fly four engined types as I wanted a civil career in aviation and I eventually got my wish which I never regretted. Regle

kookabat

19th Feb 2010, 06:15

small grass aerodrome called Brize Norton
Hmm. I think that one's changed a little in the ensuing years...:ok:

I had always wanted to fly four engined types as I wanted a civil career in aviation and I eventually got my wish which I never regretted.
This is an interesting comment as well. Phil Smith, pilot of the crew I am researching, preferred heavy bombers as well, considering that a licence to fly big aeroplanes would be a useful qualification to have post-war. While you, Reg, went on and did just that, once Phil returned to peacetime life he never flew as a pilot again. I remember him telling me, a few years before his death, that an Oxford was the last aeroplane he ever landed.

fredjhh

19th Feb 2010, 09:13

Regle's reply to your question about choices under the Arnold scheme, was very similar to pilots courses in the UK. The only choice we were offered was to volunteer to be trained as instructors. This was an appeal from the CFI to the assembled course in a classroom. No one volunteered. Whether any one volunteered later I do not know, but most of the course went directly to Bomber Command OTUs. I did meet one man, aged about 30, who was posted to fly Ansons at a Navigation School, and another who went to Half Penny Green to train Army Glider Pilots on Hotspurs. The RAF pilots were given
Hawker Harts to keep up their power flying skills.
We could do with some reminiscences of those trained in Rhodesia.

cliffnemo

19th Feb 2010, 10:23

For example, could a pilot choose where in the world they wanted to go, o

My first experience of 'choosing', was when at A.C.R.C (St John's Wood .) we were asked which I.T.W ( Initial Training Wing ) we wished to be posted to. I chose Scarboro (near home) , and was posted to Torquay (furthest away ).

Blacksheep

19th Feb 2010, 10:44

I knew a Ground Radar Fitter who didn't wish to go to Saxavord, so he put his positive choice as "Saxavord" and his negative choice as "Anywhere that isn't Saxavord".

He was posted to Saxavord, naturally...

cliffnemo

21st Feb 2010, 11:12

Herewith translation with the help of Yahoo translator.(my first reply).
I don't know yet, whether it helps, but will study the reply below..

I think the emails I have sent to Luftwaffe pilots may be going into their spam box. Has any one any ideas on how i could prevent this ? If no suggestions are forthcoming . I will send a letter to each one by 'snail' mail. A time consuming job, but 'Press on reward less'

Can't help singing that old song 'He's got high hopes, high apple pie in the sky hopes, and then think of 'that little old ram, thought he'd punch a hole in a dam.

TRANSLATION BY YAHOO TRANSLATOR.
Yahoo! My Yahoo! Mail Search the Web Yahoo! Babel Fish *Welcome, cliffordleach* Sign Out Babel Fish Home - Help In English
-------------------------------------------------------------
Very honoured Clifford Leach I received and with interest read their message regarding pilots of the WW II. Which concerns me, then I am gladly ready for information. Other addresses I cannot give you unfortunately, since all pilots are older than I and information are not ready to give. I maintain good contacts to the Doncaster air Gunners Ass.und am of the 10th - 12.July in Bridlington to a meeting. For this you can experience details over Jacqui Whitehead. With friendly grÃ¼sssen Horrido Theo Nau ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ( Enter up to 150 words ) Translate again Sehr geehrter Clifford Leach Ihre Nachricht hinsichtlich Piloten des WW II habe ich erhalten und mit Interesse gelesen. Was mich selbst betrifft,so bin ich gerne zu AuskÃ¼nften bereit. Andere Anschriften kann ich Ihnen leider nicht geben,da alle Piloten Ã¤lter sind als ich und nicht bereit sind AuskÃ¼nfte zu geben. Ich pflege gute Kontakte zu der Doncaster Air Gunners Ass.und bin vom 10. - 12.July in Bridlington zu einem Treffen. NÃ¤heres hierzu kÃ¶nnen Sie Ã¼ber Jacqui Whitehead erfahren. Mit freundlichen grÃ¼sssen Horrido Theo Nau

brakedwell

21st Feb 2010, 13:55

Cliff :ok:
You might find this human translation more useful.

Dear Clifford Leach,

I have received your message concerning WW II pilots and read it with interest. With regard to myself, I would be happy to provide information. I cannot, unfortunately, provide you with other addresses because all other pilots are older than me and are not willing to give information.

I maintain good relationships with the Doncaster Air Gunners Association (?) and will be at a meeting in Bridlington from 10th - 12th. of July. You can find out more about this via Jacqui Whitehead.

Yours sincerely,

Horrido Theo Nau

regle

21st Feb 2010, 14:57

When we came to the end of the Charter we were due to leave from Jan Smuts for Brussels. The German "Courier" who had stayed with his Group for the duration of the tour had gone back to Germany already and had left a Deputy behind. I was sitting in the cockpit awaiting embarkation of his group, having already installed my Wife and two of my teenage children behind the cockpit when this chap came in to the cockpit, bristling with indignation. Herr Commandant...he began and then almost shouted that there were free passengers aboard and that the aeroplane did not belong to Sabena but to his Company. I did not answer but unplugged my headphones and began putting papers in my crew bag. "What are you doing ?" he shouted. "I am just getting my things together and then I am going to take my Wife and children off your aircraft and then you may take command and fly it wherever you like . " I replied, quietly. Have you ever seen one of those cartoons where a lifesized airfilled doll collapses ? I swear that it happened to this chappie.! My crew could hardly keep their faces straight as he struggled for words, red in the face and then swept out and we never saw him again.
I will just tell you of one or two "Tales of aircrew in Africa" and then get back on course as I have jumped ahead and got on Jets before I had finished with the elastic driven prop age.

regle

21st Feb 2010, 15:49

My eldest daughter, Linda , was flying with British Caledonian, later British United and I met up with her, once or twice, when stopping over at Entebbe. The crews of both companies stayed at the same Hotel, the famous,or quite often the infamous, Queen Vic. I was not there when she was amongst the British crew who found themselves within earshot of a Sabena crew on the lawn of the Hotel swimming pool. Linda went to school in Belgium and is fluent in Flemish and French so she understood every word of what the Sabena chaps were saying including quite graphic descriptions of what they would like to do with some of the British Stews.
She didn't say a word until she got up to leave and then stopped by their side and in the lowest Bruxelloise patois which consists of a weird mixture of both languages proceeded to tell the flabbergasted Romeos that they would'nt last five minutes with the weakest of her friends and told them why. When she stalked off she told me that they stood up and applauded her ! She was not so lucky when she was involved in a horrific accident in a Volkswagen Beetle returning to the Hotel after a crew night out in the nearby Kimpala. They crashed into one of the stone columns guarding the entrance to the Hotel. I don't know how many were in the Beetle but Linda was sitting on the knees of the First Officer and was thrown through the windscreen. The first officer broke both his legs and to my knowledge never flew again. She was taken to the only Hospital in Kampala where there were no sheets on the beds but, by a wonderful stroke of luck,was being visited by a visiting Bitish surgeon who so skilfully stitched up her face wounds that there are no scars to be seen to this day. She was not so lucky with the terrible damage to her legs which was left unattended for too long and shows the scars as proof. Once again she was lucky as the crew at the Hotel was captained by one of the original British Pilots Charles W...t . All of the original 30 British pilots and their wives were considered by the children to be the Uncles and Aunts that they had left behind in England and Uncle Charles was one of them. H went straight to Kampala when he heard the news and saw that Linda was looked after. It was in the middle of the night and a taxi driver refused to take him back to Entebbe when he saw his bloodstained shirt after he had visited Linda as he thought that he had been in a fight and did not want to get involved. The Caledonian manager wanted to send her straight back to Gatwick where she shared a flat with four other stewardesses in nearby Reigate but Charles and another "Uncle" Jack E...s ,who was taking the next Sabena plane back to Brussels made sure tha she was on the flight so that she could be looked after by us. The Sabena staff were marvellous and I never ceased to be so thankful that I worked for a Company who regarded each of it's employees as one of a very large family. My next episode will be with that same Captain Charles W...t as we were both told we were to be promoted from D.C7C's to 707's but that the course would take about six months and all studying would have to be done in our spare time as they could not spare us so we would have to take all our books with us on long stops away and really get down to it.

fredjhh

21st Feb 2010, 18:31

SFTS Lessons continued in the same way as at EFTS, with half a day in the classroom, and half a day flying. In addition to bombing theory, stripping of guns and fusing of bombs, there were theory lessons on engines and carburetors. The only shooting we did was clay pigeon shooting. Astro navigation, with spherical trigonometry and the use of the astro compass and the sextant, took up more of the classroom work as we got nearer to the Wings Exams. There were night vision tests, and aircraft recognition tests using slide projectors with a very fast shutter in a dark room.
After one flight my Instructor told me, “ We are recommending you for a commission. Do you wish to accept?” “Yes sir. Thank you sir.”
“ Good. Report to the Flight Commander. He is expecting you.” I saw the Flight Commander and he asked the same question, then told me the Group Captain and the CFI and the CGI would send for me later. They did, and I found I was on a list of 14 for commissions, “subject to your examination marks!” Later a man from Gieves measured us for uniforms, which would be ready at the end of the course.
Just a day or two before Christmas 1941, we were told at 8-00 am to be cleared of the station, and to be on the coaches for posting at 12-00. The runway contractors, who had started outside the airfield, had now reached the dispersal sites. In the early after-noon we found ourselves in the peacetime station of RAF Little Rissington, the home of No. 6 SFTS.
We assembled in a large hall where the Group Captain “Welcomed “ us to Little Rissington. Our posting was as big a surprise to him as it had been to us! They had no accommodation, but airmen were still working to make two First War huts ready. They had no extra aircraft and no spare instructors, but they would see what could be done. Our Course Leader, Sgt, ‘Lofty” Reynolds, an ex-Boy Apprentice, handed in a sealed envelope from Lyneham which the Group Captain read then passed to the CGI, before he left the room.
The CGI told us that the letter gave the list of those for Commissions, “ You will only be here for about two to three weeks, but we cannot recommend for Commissions, people we do not know.” He then went on to explain that 6 SFTS had two Awards, a Badge of Honour for the Best Pilot, and a Navigation Cup for the best Pilot/Navigator. They also had an Honours Board listing each course with their average examination mark. It could not be spoilt by our marks, so we would not appear on the board!
We would be designated 29a Course (Ex Lyneham.) And that was that!
I think at that point everyone decided that our average mark would beat any on the Rissington board.

fredjhh

23rd Feb 2010, 21:48

A day or two later we started flying. I had already the required hours but we needed night landings. We used goose necked flares for the landing strip on the grass field and, if the wind changed, the pupils and the night flying ground crews had to change the “runway.”
On the third day, the 14 commission candidates were told to parade at SHQ at 9-00 am.
The SWO marched us in, one at a time, for interview with the Group Captain, the CGI and the CFI. All 14 were interviewed in a total time of 30 minutes. My interview consisted only of, “What school did you attend?” I named my Grammar School. “What games did you play?” “Cricket, Soccer and Tennis, Sir.” “If you got into debt as a officer, would your father pay your debts?” “ No Sir. My father died when I was eleven.” “Would you mother pay your debts?” “No Sir. I would not get into debt.” I was dismissed. The others were asked the same questions.
Next morning a Message was posted on the crew room board.

None of the members of 29a Course (Ex-Lyneham) will be commissioned.

Night Flying continued. A pupil on the senior course wore the ribbon of the George Medal. His aircraft had been attacked at night by a German fighter, and set on fire. His instructor was seriously wounded and the pupil, on his first night flight, had to land the aircraft and get the instructor clear. On an earlier course, a pupil had rammed a German aircraft in daylight, and his name is commemorated with a tablet on the Church yard wall in the village of Sherbourne, where he died.
Then we had the first snow. I took off on a bright January day and, at 300ft, I flew into a snow storm. I kept climbing ahead and came out in clear air. Circling the Rissington hill I could see a pillar of snow falling on the airfield. There was no way I could land there, so I flew to Brize Norton and booked in at the Watch Office, where they insisted I must be “lost.”
They did not believe my story until an ATA officer landed a Wellington and said he could not get into Rissington for heavy snow. I stayed the night and I was allowed to return next day. Then the snow got really severe, piling great drifts on the western edge of the hill, cutting us off from Bourton-on-the-Water and the outside world. After four days we were on hard rations, and we were set to work to dig a passage down the hill to join up with Army parties digging up the hill. A week later we started Night Flying again and we had our Wings Examination. The course average mark was the highest to date at 6 SFTS and I was very pleased to come 9th out of 54. The Course mark did not appear on the Honours Board!

Steve Bond

24th Feb 2010, 08:02

Dear Kookabat,

Which Phil Smith are you resarching please? I too am researching a chap of the same name who died in Milton Keynes last year and also flew Oxfords at some point. Could this be the same one?

kookabat

24th Feb 2010, 09:06

G'day Steve,
Negative, Phil was an Australian, full initials DPS Smith, but he went by Phil. He passed away in 2003.

It was worth a shot though, you never know who you will find here. I had a random private message almost a year ago from someone who had googled the name of my great uncle (a 467 Sqn navigator) - and found this thread (I posted a picture of him there some time back) (http://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=3244673#post3244673). Turned out the man who contacted me was also a great nephew, but on the other side of the family!. The two branches had lost touch some years ago. My grandfather was most excited to get in touch with him - all through the power of PPRuNe!

fredjhh

24th Feb 2010, 09:42

____________________________________________________________ ________
During the final sessions of flying I had to go into the Flight Commander’s office to sign the Night Flying book. Another pupil was there, reading a Memo which was lying open on page. I read

MEMO

Because it has always been the custom to award the Pilot’s Badge of Honour and the Pilot/ Navigator’s Cup to pupils who are to be commissioned, in the case of 29a Course (Ex-Lyneham), the awards will be confined to the Army Officers attached to the course.

Signed............................... CGI

The Army Officers were as shocked as we were.
Our Wings Parade was held in a hangar as it was raining heavily. A contingent of ground staff and another of WAAFs formed two sides of a square with our parade in the centre. One of the Army officers was called forward and the Group Captain presented his wings and the Badge of Honour. A second officer was called to receive his wings and the Navigation Cup, then the remainder received their wings. Sgt “Lofty” Reynolds, the course leader then received his wings - “On behalf of the rest of the course.”
The Parade was dismissed and the pupils filed out of the hangar, receiving a ‘Deficiency Chit’ from a sergeant at the door. These we took down to Stores where we exchanged them for pilot’s badges and sets of sergeants tapes, plus a webbing belt and holster with another Deficiency Chit in lieu of a Pistol!
War time economy in the UK, compared with the wings parades in the USA.
We left Little Rissington the next day, but we were forbidden to wear our Pilot's badges and stripes until the following day when we were at home on leave.
My total flying hours were 87 hours dual and 83 hours solo, onTiger Moths and Oxfords, with 26 hours on the Link trainer in six and half months, including two weeks leave.
Some members of my course at ITW had no interruption in their flying and were already flying Wellingtons, Whitleys, Hampdens and Blenheims. And some were dead.
That concludes my experience of Pilot Training in the UK in WW2. Fredjhh

kookabat

24th Feb 2010, 09:53

Thanks Fred, that certainly is some difference from what some of our other posters have written for their wings parade!

Please continue with your operational career, I'm sure there are more out there as interested as I am! :ok:

Adam

cliffnemo

24th Feb 2010, 10:13

Please continue with your operational career, I'm sure there are more out there as interested as I am! Amen to that .

So . Johnfairr more please. I am sure we are all interested, and on behalf of all our friends. MANY THANKS.

regle

24th Feb 2010, 12:16

Even so long after the event my hackles rise when I read of the disgacefully shabby treatment of your course, Unfortunately there existed that type of Senior Officer who had the power to alter the lives of so many courageous pilots who should have had recourse but were far too young and inexperienced to be able to do anything about it. Please let us have some more of your life with my cherished 51 Squadron . You must have arrived at Snaith a little after me. My first Op with 51 was the eventful Hamburg "Fire Bombing" on the night of July 23rd./24th. 1943. I am proud to see my "Autograph" so close to yours on the title page of "Snaith Days" (Large type of Paperback edition) and I did my last Op on the night of Jan 28th.1944 to Berlin . It was actually counted as being with the newly formed 578 Sqn.(From "C" Flight, 51 Sqdn.) but we were still operating from Snaith and although I went to Burn for a short time I never operated again. We had retained the Sqdn. marking of LK but I think that I speak for all the people that were "pressed" into 578 and who always regarded themselves as still being 51 Sqdn. and that I am sure , included my fellow Arnold scheme trainee but on a later course,and good friend whom I am sure that you must have known, Cyril Barton ,who lost his life saving the small village from the disaster of a Halifax crashing into it but not before he had enabled the rest of his crew to bale out safely. The posthumous V.C. that followed was attrbuted to 578 but everyone at Snaith counted him as a 51 type.

You have evoked many memories and I hope that there are more to come, Thank you, Reg

fredjhh

24th Feb 2010, 21:35

To Regle and Cliffnemo
I am puzzled. Who is Johnfair?
Reg, I was posted to 51 Squadron in April 1943 and I was almost immediatley admitted to hospital for some weeks. I was shot down on 21/22nd June 1943 on Krefeld, two days after the Snaith Bomb Dump blew up. Snaith Days has my story, written in by Keith Ford when I helped him with the book. Fredjhh.

Icare9

25th Feb 2010, 11:55

I believe Regle was referring to another poster, johnfairr, in mistake for you...
I'm sure he'll be along shortly to add some more....
It sounds as if you have a little story to tell about how you managed to evade capture for some months.

it seems to have been quite a rare achievement for all the crew of a Halifax to survive a crash... did you meet up with your crew after the War?

I think one of your crew was betrayed in Antwerp by the same guy who betrayed one of Reg's best friends, I'm sure that will be clarified in due course....

Great writing and look forward to more of your memories.

regle

25th Feb 2010, 15:49

Thanks ICare9 (Should be Ilookafterreg) and apologies to you ,Fred . All remarks that I sent to John f.etc. were meant for you. It is not the first time that I have made this type of mistake. I am going to make a sort of "Cast" list and put the pseudonyms with their proper names....and then lose the list !! Thanks ,Kevan, for the Gen on Fred. He has a lot more to give us....evaded , recaptured ..sounds like the mnemonic for Henry V111's wives with "Survived" being Fred's part in it. Come on , Fred, I for one am left "Cliffhanging" each Saturday morning. Cliffhanging ! Now there's a story in that Cliff ! Regle

tow1709

26th Feb 2010, 17:01

Peter Brett's story continues...

After my first solo on the Typhoon I was expecting perhaps a few hours practice flying and then to start on operations. But no! In the first place, the squadron moved from Harrowbeer to Tangmere on 3rd August and my second flight did not take place until the 8th. From then until the 11th September I accumulated some 17 hours Typhoon time doing things like low level cross-country flights in formation, tail chases, close formation, battle formation flying and air-to-air gunnery practice.
Just as I was expecting once again to start operations the squadron was again posted. On the 18th August we moved to Perranporth in Cornwall. The airfield here was perched on the cliffs above Perranporth and one runway finished at the edge of the cliff overlooking the beach. When landing on this runway, in either direction, there were things to be remembered. If landing from inland towards the beach you had to remember that it would be very unwise to run out of runway on landing since, instead of some rough grass after the end of the runway there was only empty space until you hit the beach some eighty feet below! When landing from the beach end it was well to remember that, if the wind was of any respectable strength, there was a vicious down draft just before you crossed the edge of the cliff (which was also the end of the runway). It was advisable to come in a bit high and fairly steeply. Fortunately the Typhoon had some of the gliding characteristics of a house brick so that with full flap and a closed throttle the angle of descent was quite steep. The aircraft with its very thick wing section lost height very rapidly, even in the normal flying attitude, well before the stalling speed was approached.
Much later I had a vivid demonstration of the difference between the way the aircraft was pointing and the direction it was traveling when doing low level rocket attacks. I remember pulling out of a dive over the river Seine just east of Le-Havre where the river is in a gorge. I had dived on some barges and fired the rockets. I then pulled out with plenty of 'g'. As I did so I looked out right at the gorge side and was able to see that, although I thought I was at least maintaining height, I was in fact still going down! Luckily I was able to climb away again having come within some twenty feet of having wet feet. That however was much later.

tow1709

26th Feb 2010, 17:15

Just about this time I did my first, and last, spin in a Typhoon. The pilots' notes on the Typhoon devoted a whole page to spinning and, knowing that most pilots' notes tended to understate things, I was a little worried to read things like: "Spins must be started between 15000 and 20000 feet. Recovery must be started after not more than one turn. Use of the engine may help to recover from spins to the left. At 25000 feet and above, cases have occurred where the spin becomes flat. Recovery from a flat spin is difficult and up to 10000 feet may be lost during recovery. Until proficient pilots should only practice spins to the left"!
None of these remarks was calculated to put me at my ease as I took off for my first spinning practice. I climbed to 22500 feet, just to be on the safe side but still below 25000 ft, and tried a couple of straight stalls. I closed the throttle and eased back on the stick to keep the nose up. Airspeed dropped rapidly and the aircraft began to wallow, at the same time the rate of climb indicator started to move rapidly down below the zero and the altimeter began to unwind. As the speed dropped below 90mph there was a shuddering and suddenly the starboard wing dropped violently, rolling the aircraft to past the vertical. Shoving the stick hard forward and opening the throttle resulted in a couple of seconds of most uncomfortable negative 'g' and then I was heading down, the airspeed was building up and the controls began to feel live again. Remembering the pilots' notes once again I let the speed build up to 250 mph and then pulled out of the dive. I had lost 3000 feet in the stall and recovery so climbed back up again before trying again. Having done a second straight stall with identical results I felt a little more confident and decided that I would have to try the spin, however little I relished the idea.
This time as the shuddering started to warn of the stall I hauled right back on the stick and shoved on full left rudder. I wasn't going to take any chances of going into a right-hand spin. This time the left wing dropped. The aircraft flipped over upside down, the nose fell towards the ground but continued to rotate very fast and in less than two seconds I was in a full left hand spin. I took the appropriate action, stick forward, full opposite rudder and stood ready to open up the throttle. Nothing seemed to happen for about a turn and a half and then the nose pitched down, the rotation stopped, and I was heading vertically earthwards. I had no idea which direction I was heading in as I pulled out of the dive since the manoeuvres were so violent that I was thrown from side to side in the cockpit. I was very glad that I had tightened my straps to an uncomfortable degree before starting. As I regained level flight I saw that this time I had lost over 7000 feet. From that moment I decided that, not only would I never intentionally spin a Typhoon again, but I would take damn good care not to get into a position where I was liable to stall without knowing all about it.

Whilst we were at Perranporth one of the chaps was unfortunate enough to have his engine cut out just after takeoff when very near the end of the runway heading towards the beach. With quick thinking he selected full flap, skimmed the end of the runway and landed on the beach. Luckily the tide was well out at the time and it was just at dawn so there was nobody on the beach. This presented a problem to the salvage crew. Having pulled the aircraft up the beach above the high tide mark using a jeep as the tractor, they then found that there was no way they could either tow it through the soft sand behind the beach or get a heavy transporter down to the beach to load it up. They finally decided that the only way was to repair the engine in situ and fly the aircraft off. Since the beach was not a restricted area the aircraft was cordoned off by a hastily erected barrier and guards were positioned. A set of shear legs were assembled for the heavy lifting and work commenced. It took two days to repair the engine since the cause of the failure was a sheared auxiliary drive shaft. This drove all the things like fuel pumps, superchargers etc, and it necessitated removing the propeller and the front of the engine to replace the shaft. This all provided an extra entertainment for the few holiday makers who frequented the beach. When it came to flying off, practically all the station personnel went down to the beach to clear the area and then line each side of the 'runway' to keep the takeoff clear.
The C.O. decided to do the takeoff himself. Afterwards he said he almost suffered from stage fright! Every eye was on him as he was brought down in a jeep and then carried his parachute over to the aircraft. The original pilot's 'chute having been carefully taken back to the airfield since the parachute silk was a highly prized 'black market' item.
The engine started first cartridge and he taxied slowly down on to the firm sand just below the high water mark. He then taxied as far as he could towards the cliff before turning round to give himself the maximum takeoff length. On opening up for takeoff, the slipstream raised a veritable sandstorm and he roared down the beach followed by a stinging plume of blown sand which made all the spectators cringe as they were blasted by the grit. He took off steeply and then did a couple of 'showoff' beat-up runs along the beach followed by an upward roll before circling round and landing on the airfield.
The squadron stayed at Perranporth until 10th October and during this time it seems, from my log book, that I was acting as 'spare man' on operations. I flew the station Hurricane to Tangmere, and also a Typhoon a couple of times to Tangmere and to Harrowbeer. Then on October 11th I was detached with aircraft HF-B to 10 Group Gunnery Practice Camp at Fairwood Common on the Gower Peninsular on the South Wales Coast. This airfield was later to become, and still remains, Swansea Airport.

fredjhh

27th Feb 2010, 21:23

It was not my intention to write any further, - I was just interested to see how the training programmes differed, as I flew with so many different instructors at both EFTS and SFTS. A neighbour in the Cotswolds told me he flew with only one instructor when he trained in Texas. Thirty years later he visited him in the USA and found him still flying.
However, here goes....................
After a one week course of flying ‘under the hood’ at a Beam ApproachTraining Flight, where we flew Oxfords, fitted for the first time with radio, we were posted to 10 OTU at Abingdon. The pre-war station had luxurious accommodation and we were installed in No 2 Sgts Mess. I shared a room with George Cooke, and Don McClelland and Ivan Hazard were next door. We all had bikes, and Ivan’s sister worked in the Ministry of Supply at Merton College, where she made arrangements to park them safely, and their uncle was the Butler at xxxxx College. “Birdie” Harris at the boat station at Folly Bridge taught me how to punt, in return for helping her to park her boats and punts under the first arch of the bridge. Punt poles were very precious and she could not afford to lose them! We spent every day-off on the river, and very often with a nice hamper with a bottle of wine from some mysterious source! The Halycon Days for us, but George and Ivan did not survive the year.

One of the screened pilots at Abingdon, Geoge Abecassis, a well known motor racing driver, looked at my 170 hours and told me flew ‘ops’ on Whitleys, as a second pilot, with only 110 hours.
The famous Group Captain Massey (shortly to become SBO at Stalag Luft 111) greeted us and spoke of the work to be done. Then he stopped, “Where are the officer pilots?” The navigator officers from Jurby were sitting in the front row and the pilots sat behind. There was a silence then one pilot stood up and said, “There no pilots commissioned on our course, Sir.” Massey’s face was as black as thunder. He spoke to some of the screened pilots behind him, then continued with his talk, before we were told to form our own crews.
It was reported that Massey had said to his officers, “We must watch this lot. They must have caused trouble somewhere”
We milled aimlessly around until I was approached by a sergeant with the O wing.
We chatted and he told me he was in the army at Dunkirk, then transferred to the RAF and trained in the USA. Two Canadian wireless operators and a Canadian gunner made up the rest of my initial crew, but it quickly changed.
This may seem an odd crew but, at that time, the Whitley crew had two pilots, one acting as bomb aimer. The two wireless operators shared the radio position and the front gun turret, and the navigator and rear gunner made up the total. In the initial training the screened instructor was the second pilot, operating the undercarriage lever and the flaps. Once a pilot was cleared for solo flying, another pilot flew with him and they alternated at the controls. From OTU, a crew went to a Squadron and split up. The pilot became a second pilot to someone who had done ten ‘ops’ in the right hand seat, and the experienced man was given the new crew as his command. Then “Butch Harris” took over Bomber Command and decided he could not spare two pilots in a crew. My screened instructor, F/Sgt “Dinty” Moore ( later S/Ldr i/c ‘B’ Flight on 51 Squadron,) asked me if I could fly the Whitley without assistance, and it was quite easy.
The Canadian wireless operators were given a Morse and Radio test. The results in order of merit, were ruled off half way down the list. The top half would remain wireless operators. The bottom half would be re-mustered in the new category as Bomb Aimers.
There was a riot, and talk of appealing to the High Commissioner. Then they were told the new post would receive the same pay as the pilots and navigators. So they calmed down, and the other half were up in arms; the better wireless operators remained on the lower pay! It seemed very unfair and I don’t know how it was all settled. There should have been one pay scale for all aircrew,- the risk was the same. fredjhh.

regle

28th Feb 2010, 13:32

Talk about "Give a dog a bad name" ! Your course really had one of the worst cases of "Officiousness" going to someone in authority's head that I have heard about. As you have pointed out so graphically, the trouble is that it stays with you and there is very little that you could do about it. I encountered , only once during my whole career a case of blatant anti-semitism in the behaviour of a certain "Colonial" Wing Commander C.G.I at one of the stations where I was a F/Lt. Instructor .. He tried to charge me with "Desertion" when I came back from leave a few hours late. I was lucky in having a Station Commander who threw it out in no uncertain manner but better was to come ! Many years later when I was a Captain ,flying Convairs for Sabena, I happened to walk through the transit lounge at Heathrow on my way back to the aeroplane to take it back to Brussels when I happened to see this same chap sitting amongst a bunch of businessmen. He recognised me straight away as I walked over to him.. "Are you one of my passengers to Brussels with Sabena Flight ... ? I asked him politely . "What a coincidence", he replied "Good to see you again after all these years". I looked at him and said "I am just going to the Sabena Station Manager to tell him that I will not have you on my Flight and I shall tell him why." He was furious but my Station Manager backed me to the hilt as did the Chief pilot Europe and the various other Directors who were contacted by the B.....d . It is true that "revenge is a dish that is best eaten cold.". regle

fredjhh

28th Feb 2010, 14:54

Well Done, Reg! I would love to have been with you.
I never saw the CGI again and I do not know his name, but it was rumoured that he had been one of the worst type of Public School masters, and he was in his element with his elevated rank. Having left SFTS without a commission you had to remain an NCO, in those days, until you had finished a tour of "Ops". BUT, some weeks after leaving Rissington, two of my fellow sergeants were commissioned, both ex-public school, and one the son of a very well known Amateur Golf champion. They were not on the original list and they did not come onto Bomber Command.
fredjhh.

regle

28th Feb 2010, 16:25

Strange that your "bete noir" should also hold the job of C.G.I. It sounds exactly like the same chap. I had been operating for over a year before I was commissioned and I was told by the Adjutant that the Commisioning Board Chairman was very angry at the slow rate of commissioning and had put in a strong word or two to his Superiors saying that all pilots should be commissioned. He was Air Vice Marshall Carr and a very tough character. When we graduated in the States our American fellow trainees could not understand how we put up with such a system and condemned it out of hand. I am pretty sure that it no longer occurs but am not too certain. The distinction between Decorations that was in force has been stopped and that, too , was a disgusting practice. When you look back on it objectively you can only see the hypocrisy behind it all. Reg

kookabat

1st Mar 2010, 02:13

This is a side to the story that you don't see discussed too often, gents - it's been rather enlightening.

fredjhh

1st Mar 2010, 10:26

The navigators were sent to the navigation flight while the pilots did circuits and bumps and local flying exercises, carrying a wireless-operator and a rear gunner. I had three hours of circuits and bumps, overshoots and single engine flying before I was sent solo.
Abingdon still had some Whitley 111s, with radial engines and the dustbin under-turret. I was detailed to fly one of these with F/Sgt Oscar Rees. Oscar said, “Don’t bother to bring a parachute. If you wear one you can’t get in and, if you put one on inside, you can’t get out, and any way,- we are doing low flying!” To get to the cockpit it was necessary to climb into the dust bin turret, under the bar and out again. Impossible with a ‘chute. If you climbed in through front hatch you still had to negotiate the dual controls to get to your seat. Low flying with Oscar meant trying to dip his props in the Thames!
Then all flying stopped and the pilots were told to train the new bomb-aimers on the use of the MK1Xa Course Setting Bomb Sight (CSBS). Each pilot was allocated to two or three trainee B/As, grouped round bombing tables set up with the CSBS, and we went through all the drills we had learned at SFTS. When the pupils were deemed ready, we then took them over to the AML trainer tower to practice bombing.
Meanwhile there was a hive of activity on the airfield but with hardy any flying, in fact I and my fellow pilots had no flying for five weeks. The OTU was preparing for the first 1,000 bomber raid. Old Whitleys were dragged out of the “graveyard” and given a thorough overhaul and air tested by the screened pilots, who were to go on the raid. Of course we did not know what was happening until the day after the raid, but we were aware of the excitement when the station was ‘closed down’ and live bombs were loaded. Group Captain Massey flew on the second 1,000 bomber raid in a Stirling and was shot down to become a prisoner.
I resumed flying in July with a full crew for cross country exercises by day and night.
For a while we were sent to Stanton Harcourt, which had one runway, for night flying. This gave us most days free to ride into Oxford. S/Ldr Gunn was in charge of the station, - a very relaxed type. He tried to get the Tannoy extended to the pub by the ferry, because “that’s where all the chaps will be!” The only announcement I heard him say was, “Attention, chaps. I’ve just heard the Group Captain is on his way over from Abingdon.
Make yourselves scarce!” fredjhh

Fubaar

1st Mar 2010, 10:29

A very similar attitude of bastardry from above is mentioned in John Beede's excellent (if rather bitter) book, 'They Hosed Them Out'.

THEY HOSED THEM OUT
John BEEDE

Book Description: AUSTRALASION B.S., Sydney, 1965. HaRD. Book Condition: Good. No Jacket. 14 X22 Cms. THE LIFE EXPECTANCY OF A N AIR GUNNER IN OPERATIOnS AGAINST A WELL DEFENDED TARGET WAS EXTREMELY SHORT AND OFTEN CAME TO A MESSY FINISH --HENCE THE TITLE-- A GRAPHIC AND AUTHENTIC ACCOUNT-- BOOK GOOD SLIGHT YELLOWING TO EDGES- DUSTY TOP BOARDS. WAR. Bookseller Inventory # 000120Recommended reading.

thegypsy

1st Mar 2010, 14:30

fredjhh/regle

re ex Public School RAF

Just wondering whether the fact that ex public school boys in those days all had to join the OTC ie Officers Training Corps meant they had an advantage in being promoted?

Just looking at my father's OTC Certificate dated 1931 which clearly states that in the event of a national emergency he is eligble for consideration for a commission etc etc

Despite this my father who was in the RAF Reserve as Sgt Pilot in 1936 on being mobilised in Oct 1939 as Sgt Pilot took until August 1940 before being granted a commission as Pilot Officer,Aug 41 as F/O, Aug 42 as Flt Lt.

My uncle( also ex public school) however who joined No 1 Squadron RAF Aberystwyth Ninth Course A Flight on 25th Feb 1941 was a Pilot Officer by Jan 1942 when his Wellington ex No 40 Squadron came down in the North Sea on a bombing raid to Wilhelmshaven and spent the rest of the war as a POW. He however transferred to the RAF from the army. How did they manage to do that?? Perhaps he was an officer already in the Army but I never got around to asking him that as he was a 60 a day Senior Service smoker and died of lung cancer before Pprune existed!

AG25

1st Mar 2010, 18:58

I often wondered about discrimination with commissions. My father passed class 42B of the Arnold Scheme, but never got commissioned. He was still a WO in 1946. And yes, he wasn't a public schoolboy.

tow1709

1st Mar 2010, 19:53

Peter Brett's story continues...

I was two weeks at Fairwood Common and accumulated about 8 hours flying doing camera-gun dummy attacks on other aircraft and live round air-to-air firing against a towed drogue target. Unfortunately, I found that my performance as an air-to-air gunner was abysmal. Later on I was to develop good accuracy at dive bombing and later still became very accurate with rocket projectiles and cannons against ground targets. However my scores on the drogue were very low. Each drogue was used for attacks by four or five different aircraft. Each aircraft had the tips of its cannon ammunition dipped in a different colour paint prior to loading and this left a coloured ring around any holes made in the drogue target to enable the accuracy of each aircraft to be assessed.

Only two things stand out in my memory of this course. The first was our reception by the station commander. We were an assorted crew of new and also some experienced operational pilots flying both Typhoons and Spitfires. We were assembled in the main lecture/briefing room for our introductory lecture. A very smartly turned out officer then marched on to the platform, regarded us with a jaundiced eye and announced. "My name is Vale, Squadron Leader Vale, I am also known as Vale the Bastard!"
I cannot recall anything else about our introductory talk but at least Sqn Ldr Vale got our attention at the beginning!

The second memorable thing was towards the end of the course when I was fed up with getting low scores on the target and decided to really press home my attack. I approached the drogue from the opposite direction, peeled over in a more than vertical bank, came round and judged it just right as the drogue passed across in front of me as I was in a vertical bank to allow me to pull on the correct deflection. I concentrated on the gun site, pulling the dot through the drogue from tail to nose and then pulling the turn tighter to get the dot at the required amount in front of the target. The dot on the gun sight moved ahead of the drogue and then I suddenly realized that the drogue had disappeared under my nose. I was obviously too close. Looking up I could see the towing aircraft at my twelve o'clock position and, since I was still in a vertical bank, this meant that I must have passed the drogue somehow. I quickly straightened up and looked around. There was the drogue gently extending and collapsing like a concertina as it drifted down into the Bristol Channel. I had cut the towing wire with my propeller!

The only effect on my aircraft was a small shiny spot on one of the prop blades. The effect on the towing aircraft however was a very sudden increase in airspeed followed by a loud bang as the released towing wire whipped forward and caught up with the towing machine. Luckily it only caused minor damage to the cable guide at the rear of the aircraft. The towing pilot however had a few nasty moments as he was presented with a perfect head-on view of a Typhoon exactly at his 6 o'clock position, catching him up fast, and not knowing whether this Typhoon was about to open fire! The net result, as far as I was concerned was that my next flight was in a Miles Master doing dual attacks, although this did not seem to have much effect since I never did manage to get a large score on the drogue. Also I noted in my log book that out of ten air-to-air firing missions, in six cases one of the two loaded cannons jammed after a few rounds. Strangely, on operations when all four cannon were loaded I never suffered a jam again. Perhaps the armourers on the operational squadrons were more motivated to make sure the ammunition belts were perfect. All in all this fortnight was somewhat of a waste of time as far as I was concerned since I never again had occasion to fire a deflection shot in anger at another aircraft! However, on the completion the course I did not return to Perranporth but rejoined the squadron at Predannack which was right down on Lizard Point in Cornwall, and it was from here that I, at last, started operational flying.

More soon - TOW

fredjhh

1st Mar 2010, 22:11

I believe that, in general, most flying schools stuck to the rule of awarding up to one third of pilots and navigators commissions, based on assessment and examination marks. I met some officers who had not been even to Grammar Schools, but had done well on their courses. Some sergeants had been to very good schools, but had not done well in the wings exam, or had been ill at the end of the course. At all events, some seemed to be at the mercy of some strong minded or dominant CGIs or CFIs. I knew one Oxford Graduate and a tutor at the University, who had to receive Maths coaching from an elementary school master on the course, as he could not understand Spherical Trigonometry for Astro Navigation. fredjhh

SE7EN

2nd Mar 2010, 07:58

REGLE

Please could you check your PM.

Thanks....

Blacksheep

2nd Mar 2010, 08:35

Reference public schoolboys and commissions: We had an ex-public schoolboy Electrical Fitter (Air) on Line Servicing Squadron; a son of a LLoyds name. His pristine Jaguar XK 150 was a source of wonderment to many of our superior officers, not least Wing Commander Engineering, in whose parking space it was often to be found. (The wingco rode a bike to work).

Union Jack

2nd Mar 2010, 09:16

Blacksheep's secondary monniker, "Cunning Artificer", reminds me that, when I served with the Royal Australian Navy, the Naval College and the Artificer Training Establishment were in very fierce competition with each other on their interstate recruiting drives, precisely because so many young Australians viewed both methods of entry, and the prospective careers each offered, as having equal merit.

Jack

harrym

3rd Mar 2010, 17:26

My SFTS station commander was a rugby nut. At the end of course interview, he having noticed I had been schooled at a place with a strong connection to the wretched game, asked in what position I played; "none, if I can help it" was my rather incautious reply, with the inevitable result that I was passed out as a Sergeant Pilot.

No regrets on that score, for while hanging around at Harrogate awaiting further training I got an impression (rightly or wrongly) that Officers were more likely to become 'stuck in the system' than NCOs; so, as my last 14 months of service were happily occupied in flying Daks around SE Asia I think that, in the end, i was well served by the system.

On returning to the Service 2 1/2 years after demob I was lucky enough to gain a commission; fortunately, at no stage was I asked that dreaded question again!

airborne_artist

3rd Mar 2010, 18:04

Predannack which was right down on Lizard Point in Cornwall

And is now a satellite to RNAS Culdrose.

fredjhh

3rd Mar 2010, 21:43

There was still plenty of enemy activity over the UK at night, and very often on returning to Abingdon there were “Bandit” warnings. The airfield was blacked out and we waited for some time until it was clear for landing. On one trip back from the Isle of Man I allowed Peter Taylor, an “O” trained navigator but now my Bomb aimer, to fly the aircraft. He must have drifted off course, for suddenly we were over Birmingham at 10,000 ft in an air raid and getting our first experience of ‘Flak.’ I guide him away and changed seats just before the rear gunner reported a JU88 immediately behind, but we lost him in cloud.
On another night cross country, coming down from Hexham, we encountered a severe storm. The lightning was amazing and the rain torrential. The Whitley leaked like a sieve and the Navigator’s chart was soaked, not entirely by the rain but also from the contents of a little tin which I carried “for domestic purposes.” When I emptied the contents of the tin through the clear vision panel, they were blown in through the perished seals of the navigator’s window! The Rear Gunner asked if he could move forward from his turret; he was soaked and could see nothing, and his parachute pack was dripping. He came forward and sat by the Wireless-Operator whose set was dead, with sparks flying from it. “Does it often spark like that?” “All the time,” said Benny.
Brad decided that being a W/Op was too dangerous.
We could make no contact with Abingdon and we dare not drop below 500 ft because of Boar’s Hill. Flying around in a widening circle I eventually made intermittent TR 9 contact by “Darky” with Chipping Warden. They told me they were firing rockets, but we could not see them. I asked for Mortar shells and eventually we saw one and closed with it. Then we saw the rockets, so I asked for the Chance Light. The Chance light and all the Drem system were already fully on, and finally we saw the runway. I landed in a tremendous rainstorm and I was told the spray shot up like a Flying Boat landing.
We reported into the Watch Office, where the Duty Officer complimented me on my procedure; then he played back all our radio conversations on a vintage Edison Bell wax drum recorder. There were many OTU crashes that night. fredjhh

tow1709

6th Mar 2010, 20:43

Here is another extract from Peter Brett's memoirs. He is now operational with No 183 Typhoon squadron, carrying out ground attack raids over northern France.

On October 28th 1943 I flew Typhoon HF-B from Fairwood Common to Predannack. I flew part of the way in company with a Spitfire which was returning to Perranporth.The rest of the trip included a low level beat-up of some of the beaches along the North Cornish coast and round Lands End, across Mounts Bay to Lizard Point.

The next day I again flew this aircraft but this time on my first operation!
The target was the airfield at Guipavas near Brest (Now the Brest Airport). We were to dive-bomb using 500lb bombs. The method and approach to dive bombing changed several times during my tour but, at this time, we were starting from 12000 ft, diving down to about 4000 ft. The briefing just told us that the target was probably heavily defended by AA fire but that we should not expect any fighter opposition since the airfield was not then occupied by an operational squadron. It seems that we were to bomb the airfield to delay the deployment of a fighter wing which was due to be transferred there.

I freely admit to the 'butterflies in the stomach' feeling during the briefing, and it was not until we were airborne and well on our way that I began to settle down. The procedure was that we flew across the channel at nominally zero feet and then did a fast battle climb to 12,000 ft just before we reached the target. The climb was done at +4 boost and 185 mph which gave us the maximum rate of climb. As soon as we reached 12,000 ft we were ordered into echelon and then the leader would call the target position and tell us when he was about to dive.

As the 'new boy' I was No.2 in the second four which made me the sixth aircraft to dive. Crossing the Channel, I was very busy keeping station on my No.1 and ensuring that I did not inadvertently fly into the sea, since we were only some twenty feet above the waves! The fast climb up was relatively easy and uneventful. The C.O. called 'Echelon Port, Arm Bombs.... Go!' and I tripped the arming switches and slid across to the left of my leader as the squadron reformed. Almost immediately I realized that I was actually being fired at for the first time! Black puffs of smoke were appearing in the sky around us. Fortunately most of them were too high. The C.O. then called 'Target 3 o'clock below, diving now' and peeled off. Up to now I had not seen the target and I blindly followed my leader into a 135 degree bank and down into, what seemed at the time to be, a vertical dive. Looking ahead I then realized that I was looking down on a grass airfield with various hangars and other buildings.

I pointed the nose of the aircraft at the centre of the field, glanced at the altimeter, which was unwinding very fast, and, as it passed 4000ft I eased the nose up a trifle and pressed the bomb release button on the end of the throttle lever. Time to leave! I pulled back on the stick and came out of the dive, keeping the 'G' force such that I did not 'black out'. As the speed dropped I eased back into level flight and looked around for the rest of the squadron. Nobody in sight! I eventually saw them about 4000ft above me. I don't think I have ever felt so alone since! Nobody had told me that you pulled out using the maximum 'G' that you could stand, even if it meant 'blacking out' by losing the blood supply to the eyes. I later became adept at pulling just the amount of 'G' to lose my vision but keep conscious on the pullout from the dive. At this time however, I had to make up the difference. By slamming the throttle 'through the gate' to emergency boost and moving the propellor control to fine pitch I managed to catch up the rest of the squadron in short order. The C.O. later apologized for not briefing me properly. The operation was counted as a success and was reported with a short paragraph in the newspapers. I had a cutting from the 'Daily Sketch' pasted into my log book. The whole operation lasted one hour and ten minutes but I felt afterwards as if I had done a hard day's work!

I did not fly again for three days. The squadron was on 'stand down' for a couple of days and, of course we had an impromptu mess party as soon as we knew that we would not be flying operations for a while. Most of us used to drink a pint or two every night but on party nights it was almost obligatory to become legless! Apart from the singing of service type songs, most of which were very obscene, we also indulged in some pretty weird pranks.

One favourite was to get some poor lad to remove his shoes and socks, dip his feet in a mixture of beer and soot from the fireplace, and then the rest of the mess, sometimes as many as fifty people, would hoist him up and he would make black footprints up the wall and across the ceiling. Since in most messes the ceiling was fairly high the footprints could only be obtained by hoisting the performer up, head downwards, on top of a pyramid of supporters. Also, since everybody was somewhat drunk and tended to collapse laughing at the slightest excuse, it usually took a long time and many downfalls before anything was accomplished. I suppose it was because we were drunk that no major injuries occurred.
I also remember trying the business of having someone sit in a chair whilst two others pressed down on his head. At a given signal the two others would transfer their hands to place one under each armpit and one behind each knee. They would then lift the subject up as high as possible. It used to work too! I can clearly remember two of us fairly tall types hurling a smaller member right over a table and landing him in a settee a good ten feet away!
The songs we used to sing were the usual ones popular in every Service mess and in every rugby club too. They were always being added to, and the notable ones, such as 'Eskimo Nell', 'The good Ship Venus' and even the more venerable "Quartermaster's Store", must by now have reached epic proportions.

One quotable ditty that I remember was an RAF dig at the US Air Force. It was sung to the tune of 'John Brown's Body' and went as follows:
We're flying Flying Fortresses at Forty Thousand feet
We're flying Flying Fortresses and we know we can't be beat
With bags of ammunition and a tiny weeny bomb
And when we've dropped the bastard then we don't know where it's gone!

This was of course a gross libel on the incredibly brave crews of the Flying Fortresses. It was based on the fact that the B-17 had many more defensive guns than, for instance, the Lancaster, but carried a somewhat smaller bomb load. Also the technique used by the USAF for daylight raids was 'Pattern bombing' where all the bombers in a formation released their bombs together on a signal from the leader who was the one doing the bomb aiming. No doubt the USAF had some equally derogatory songs about the RAF!

The only times I every came into contact with the USAF I found them very similar to ourselves and very ready to help out in any situation. I certainly did not envy the Flying Fortress crews on their raids into Germany. In any case, we had every reason to be thankful to them since at this time the Luftwaffe was deployed defending Germany from their operations and consequently we were not very often attacked by German aircraft over Northern France.

thegypsy

7th Mar 2010, 09:34

tow1709 Glad to hear that there were not too many German fighters in France when Peter Brett was there

I have just got hold of a combat report submitted by my father Flt Lt xx after a bombing raid on L'Orient in early 1943 in a Stirling .

Night. Stirling was over target at 13500 ft when a Me109 approached from starboard beam at 200 yards apparently diving to attack a Lancaster on port beam of our aircraft. M/U Gunner told Captain to turn starboard. Stirling executed a rate 2 1/2 turn and dived a 1000 ft and both gunners fired good bursts at E/A as it dived from starboard beam below to climb away from port quarter.

M/U gunner ( Sgt xx) reported attack broken off and told Captain to resume course. Bomb run was then made and bombs had just gone when E/A re-appeared dead astern below firing cannon shell,visibility was good, clear sky, searchlights, fires and flares. Rear Gunner (Sgt xx) told Captain to corkscrew and maintained a long burst at point blank range,when there was a blinding flash in E/A which was not seen any more. Rear gunner could not observe the results of his fire as he was temporarily blinded by explosion, but E/A is claimed as probably destroyed.

Seven nights later their luck ran out when a nightfighter shot them down over Belgium (Me 110)

regle

8th Mar 2010, 15:43

Just dreaming up a good title for an RAF songbook. Does it exist ? I remember years ago there was a Rugby Song book which went pretty near the mark. I am sure that there would be a pretty good demand for one. I remember that , rightly or wrongly,( apropos that last phrase ; why not wrightly if wrongly is wright ?) Noel Coward was supposed to have written some of the best ones. "Craven A" being one.

I am going back to the 60's
to continue my ramblings. I had joined Sabena in 1952 and had flown as a first officer for a couple of years before becoming a Freight captain on DC3's , From then on I had risen rapidly to becoming a Captain flying the European sector on Convairs, DC4's and DC6's and then progressing as a senior Captain flying DC4's, DC6's and then DC7C's on the "Long Courier" routes which comprised the Belgian Congo, New York, Montreal, Mexico , Johannesburg and one Tokyo per week (on DC4's). I had flown 3,850 hours on joining Sabena in May 1952 and in Jan. 1964 I had the total of 14,500 hrs. all on piston engined aircraft.
Around July/August of 1963 I was called in to the Chief Pilots Office and told that there would be the possibility of two or three Captains becoming neccessary for the farly new Boeing 707's that the Company had been flying for some time. I was in line for one of the vacancies and was told that I would have to study for the required examinations in my own time as the company could not spare time off . I would be given a definite date later but was I prepared to start the course there and then.? It was not an easy decision. I was then 41 years of age so could count on another 19 years of flying as long as I could pass the medicals. Sabena had no hard and fast "sell by date " but it was considered that 60 would be a good age to retire and qualify for the extremely generous "Golden Handsakes" and Pension. Certainly there was time to enjoy the challenge of a new career so I discussed the matter lengthily with my Wife and agreed to put my name down for the Jet age.
Another of the British Captains, Charles Wait, had been given the same chance and had accepted so as our two families were the best of friends we agreed that we would try and do our studying together. The transition from piston to jet aircraft was a huge step and Sabena, rightly, always laid great stress on a very sound theoretical background for it's pilots.. This standard was the highest that I had ever met in aviation and contrasted enormously from the American practical approach which was then the alternative answers form and was based on the theory that "If you can't do anything about it , then there was no need to know about it ." We were given brief day courses on various subjects when they could fit it in between trips but we had to spend most of the rtime studying in Hotels and at home to the dismay of our respective Wives. They took it in turns to prepare gigantic meals for us as we studied and so we put on many kilo's before the final, all Oral examinations took place.
Sabena were fortunate in possessing a Flight Engineer with one of the finest brains and teaching skills that I have ever encountered. Yves D. was a tower of strength in putting over formulae to two ignorant ex-Grammar School educated pilots who had only just discovered that a formula was more than what Americans gave to their babies.

Molemot

8th Mar 2010, 18:03

Songs, eh? I have a copy of the "Airman's Song Book" edited by C.H.Ward-Jackson and Leighton Lucas..published by William Blackwood & Sons Ltd. in 1967...I paid 24/- for it!! Runs from before the Great War up to 1967. There are lots of omissions, but it sets out to be a history of the RAF told by its own songs...and does it quite well. SBN 85158 00 5 x.

green granite

8th Mar 2010, 19:51

Regle, it's so nice to hear what happened after the war, most wartime pilots end their stories with the end of the war and it sort of leaves one wondering well what did you do then? Keep it coming please it's fascinating. :ok:

Union Jack

8th Mar 2010, 22:49

regle

11th Mar 2010, 13:40

Thanks for the nice words. I think that there were a few reasons why people did'nt put down their post-war careers and experiences. For probably the majority the post war was a complete anti-climax and to many a vast disappointment. A lot of them had escaped from a mundane existence and found the war an exciting and wonderful change. I know that my Father, who was 39 when the war broke out and was commissioned as an RAF Signals Officer ,spent most of his career overseas and had the best time of his life. The other side of it was the terrible trauma experienced by those less fortunate who had been taken prisoner by ruthless enemies and subjected to inhuman treatment. The disfigured, the terribly wounded and the people who were simply traumatised by what was happening to them . None of these could be expected to put their thoughts on paper. Richard Hillary's "The Last Enemy" is a difficult to read but outstanding exception. As an example of what must have been going on on the minds of thousands was the response to one simple advertisement in "The Aeroplane" or "Flight" magazines by Sabena in the early part of 1952. They wanted 30 pilots and did not reqiure Civil licences . The response was overwhelming and numbered well over 1,200. Of the thirty that were taken on, I was the only one to have a current 'B' Licence as it was called then. Virtually all the others were ex-RAF pilots back in peace time jobs and seeking to get back to a more exciting life. The lack of the need to have the outstanding ticket to a civil airline career was too tempting to many of them "stuck" in soul destroying jobs. Another reason , I think, was the difficulty in getting any sort of memoir published as the demand to read about other peoples' experiences was low. The demand was to have to wait for about twenty years by which time another generation had grown and wanted to know what their Fathers had been doing. Now it is the Grandchildrens' turn and this has brought the further demand of the post-war experiences but the survivors are all around my age ,88 in two months time and, possibly the main reason : very few of us are interested or well enough to get down to putting it into words by this medium.

I thank God every day for my good luck in being able to do most of these things and pay homage to all those far worse off and those who are no longer here but did so much to make it possible. Regle

brakedwell

11th Mar 2010, 14:19

You could always employ a ghost writer regle! Off subject a bit, but I have just started reading the story of Horace Greasley, aged 92. It is a fascinating account of his time as a POW, written by a ghost writer called Ken Scott. Among other things it tells the story of his full blown love affair with a female translator (German) while incarcerated in a POW camp in Silesia. It was published in 2008 and is Titled: Do Birds Still Sing in Hell? ISBN 978-1-905988-80-8
A book to enjoy while drinking your Cocoa!

YouTube - Do The Birds Still Sing In Hell (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA3AkahgeoI)

regle

11th Mar 2010, 16:13

A bit further with my last thread. Another very important reason for there not being many "What happened next " stories after the war must be the frailty of the human memory. Unless one kept a diary there were very few ways that people could accurately recall where they were at a certain time, let alone what they were doing.. This is where all pilots score. Your log book , which it was mandatory to keep and have regularly certified as being a true record, will instantly tell you that and , hopefully , jog the memory especially as the long forgotten names of the people that flew with you are very often there as well. Trouble is that I have six of them and it is remembering roughly which date you want that is giving me trouble plus the fact that some inks keep better than others. I must sat that whatever ink I used in my early days keeps better than the later ball point days. I think that it was Quink and certainly not Stephens.... That was another bawdy song that comes back so readily when more important things get forgotten ! Regle

kookabat

11th Mar 2010, 18:39

On the subject of logbooks... it's also interesting as a historian reconstructing the careers of a crew through their logbooks and letters, long after the fact. I have two logbooks belonging to members of my great uncle's crew - one for the nav and one for the pilot. I'm in touch with the families of two more (bomb aimer and now, as of yesterday in fact, the rear gunner too), neither have those logbooks sadly, but I live in hope.

One veteran has said to me, that if he knew there would be so much interest in his wartime logbook 65 years later he would have been more careful in filling it out!

D John

11th Mar 2010, 18:58

Hi,

what a great thread, very interesting!

I'd like to say to the vets not to be shy about posting any photos they have, all would be much appreciated!;)

cheers,

-John

Union Jack

11th Mar 2010, 23:47

I think that it was Quink and certainly not Stephens.... That was another bawdy song that comes back so readily when more important things get forgotten!

Well, Regle, I don't believe that any of us who has followed this wonderful thread throughout thinks that you, or Cliff et al, have forgotten any of the "more important things".

Jack

PS And you clearly haven't forgotten that "They called the B*****d Stephens", and why!

fredjhh

12th Mar 2010, 09:46

My crew at 10 OTU, Abingdon, was established now as Sgt. Jack Roberts, Navigator; Sgt. Peter Taylor, Bomb-Aimer; Sgt “Benny” Goodman, Wireless-Operator; and Sgt. Bert Bradley ((RCAF) Rear-Gunner. Jack had been trained in Canada, and Peter had been trained as an Observer in South Africa. In night bombing using infra-red targets, Peter had difficulty with his night vision, but he later flew two tours, being killed in 1944, aged 19. He must have been only 17 when at OTU, by which time he had qualified in South Africa.
We all wondered about his age and he was heard to be discussing the faking of ages on birth certificates. His parents were working abroad and he had joined up straight from a boarding school. I can only guess that he had made 15 into 18; or 1925 into 1922 on his Birth Certificate.
Exactly one year after first stepping into a Tiger Moth I was briefed for a 1,000 bombing raid on Dusseldorf. Several OTU crews at Abingdon were ready for their final test, which was usually a “Nickel” (dropping leaflets) on France or Belgium. On entering the briefing room we found the route outlined to the Ruhr and we were told it would be a full Bomber Command operation. I cannot remember all the details, such as bomb load, but I know our bombing height was fixed at 10,000;- a height that would have made me shudder on the Squadron, but caused no worry in my innocence.
Fully laden, and taxying round the perimeter track in total darkness, I had my bomb aimer in the front turret with the Aldis light, trying to guide me round. There were no lights, and the “runway” had just the usual six goose necked flares, with a blue lighted “Christmas tree” at the holding point. Half-way round, the Bomb-Aimer told me to stop. The Flight Commander had flashed us down and, when he poked his head under the front hatch, he said the operation had been scrubbed. He added that he would guide me round onto the perimeter track to return to dispersal. He waved his torches, I followed them round. While we were stripping off in the locker room, the Flight Commander came in carrying his totally wrecked bicycle, which I had run over. He did not blame me! fredjhh.

Chugalug2

13th Mar 2010, 10:20

regle:
The other side of it was the terrible trauma experienced by those less fortunate who had been taken prisoner by ruthless enemies and subjected to inhuman treatment.
Thank you for that comment, Reg, as it truly encapsulates my father's fate surviving such treatment for over three years until succumbing to it a few months before VJ day.
fredjh:
Several OTU crews at Abingdon were ready for their final test, which was usually a “Nickel” (dropping leaflets) on France or Belgium.
I remember an instructor at the Hastings OCU who similarly as a student was sent with his OTU crew on a 1000 bomber raid on Cologne. They found the target, duly bombed it but were hit in one of their engines. None the less they made it back home and he found himself enjoying the "Flying Fryup" in the Officers Mess. An Instructor further up the table called down to him and said well done for getting back on one engine. "Now you know why the Wimpey is also nicknamed the "Pig" as that is what it is with one feathered!". He later found his own instructor and asked; "What does feathered mean, Sir?" He had returned with the failed engine windmilling, not knowing better!

rmventuri

16th Mar 2010, 21:54

It has been quite some time since I last wrote in and frankly am way behind in my reading – busy stage of life with kids still at home. Fredjhh I did read your story in Snaith Days – miracle you are here to tell it and looking forward to hearing more of the “details” when you get to it.

My uncle Doug (51 squadron rear gunner whom I have written about earlier in the forum) was stationed at 10 OTU Abingdon possibly around the same time you were (dec 8 ’42 to april 9 ’43). Next he was assigned to 10 OTU Detachment St. Eval (april 19 ’43 to May ’19 ’43) - from your writing it looks like you must have gone from 10 OTU to a CU then on to 51 Squadron at Snaith? Do you know anything about the 10 OTU detachment in St. Eval? According to Doug’s logbook while at St. Eval he had many 6 to 10 hr day time missions on Anti-Submarine patrol (looks like he was destine for coastal command at this point but obviously something changed). On several occasions they were engaged with enemy subs. Realizing it was an OTU it still mystifies me today that he did not get credit for these as an official ops?

PS a friend of my fathers was an RCAF lanc pilot and is one of the few remaining members of the Guinea Pig club (I think there are only 50 left). He is still “with it” and online so I will see if he can contribute to this fabulous forum.

Rodger

fredjhh

16th Mar 2010, 22:32

On the last day in July, 1942, Ivan and I, with four other crews, were told we would be posted the following day. We were to be cleared from Abingdon by 11-00am and then report to the Engineering Officer. There we were given the Form 700 for six ancient Whitleys which just been serviced, after lying idle for some months. They were an uninspiring sight, recently fitted with six internal tanks,- long cylinders stacked three each side in the fuselage. We were told these would enable the Whitley to fly for up to 14 hours, and we were to deliver them to St Eval.
10 kit bags, two for each crew member, plus several other packages and three bicycles, were strapped down in the available space and we climbed in. Unfortunately there was no seat squab for the pilot. Also we had no parachutes nor Mae Wests, despite the order we were always to carry these. Abingdon parachute section demanded they should be handed in before clearance and would not issue others. Peter, my Bomb Aimer, acquired a blanket from the Sergeants’ Mess for me to sit on. The engines fired up and the airframe rattled and groaned as we taxied out.
A Pilot Officer wearing pilots wings, but also the badges of the ATC, said he was authorized to fly with us to St Eval, as he was spending a holiday in Newquay. Peter had confirmed this at the Watch Office. I invited him to sit in the jump seat and Peter said he would sit in the nose. As we turned onto the grass airfield the Pilot Officer said he had never flown in a Whitley and he was looking forward to the trip. I replied, “They are very solid aircraft, but don’t judge them by this clapped out old kite. I will feel much happier when we get it off the ground.” I wish I had not said that !
It was hot day with no wind and the “T” was laid out to give the longest run. Opening up to full bore we rumbled across the grass in a long run but, just as we reached take -off speed, I felt a slight swing to port. I immediately knew something was wrong so I called, “Hold tight. We are crashing.”
The trees on the airfield boundary loomed up as I pulled back on the stick and we just scraped over them, dropping onto the wheels in a field of stubble.
Flames shot up between my legs and the green fabric by the side of my seat was also ablaze. ( Who would line a cock-pit with a green carpet-like material?) Then we hit a fence and the wheels were torn off, and we stopped in a field of wheat. Although I had hit the switches there was an awful noise from the fire.
The Pilot Officer had disappeared through the nose, following Peter. Jack Roberts was standing on my right thigh and pushing against the escaped hatch. I reached up and released the catch and Jack shot out. As I turned round, I saw ‘Benny’ Goodman staggering from the wireless compartment. He had taken his jacket off before take off, because it was a very hot day, but now his shirt was in flames, his hair had disappeared and the skin had gone from his face. He was blind, and groping forward with his hands.
I grabbed hold of him and steered him up to the hatch and pushed him out. The port wing was ablaze so I pushed ‘Benny’ forward over the front turret where Bert Bradley had come round from the rear turret and he grabbed him.
I urged the crew away and we ran to a farm house at the edge of the field. The front door was open but no one was about, so I picked up the telephone and asked the operator for Abingdon Airfield, saying it was ‘An Emergency.’ She did not know what an emergency was and did not want to connect me. As I argued with her, a hand came from behind me and took the ‘phone. It was Group Captain Gray. I said to him, “I don’t know what on earth happened, Sir.”
“Don’t worry, sergeant. All your crew are alive. That’s all that matters.”
The rest of the crew were already in the ambulance and ‘Benny’ was being swathed in wet bandages, taken from a bucket of brine water.
I commented on the speed at which the Ambulance and Fire Crew had arrived and one said. “We watched you take off. Half way down your run we saw the fire break out from the port engine and it was like an eighty foot blow lamp. It even burnt off your port rudder before you got airborne, and we started out, not across the field but by the main gate.”
Of the other five Whitleys, Ivan landed at St Eval, but as he passed over the “hump” on the main runway he found he had no brake pressure. Unable to stop he turned and wrote off the undercarriage. A second aircraft landed at St Merryn and also suffered brake failure, crashing into the bomb dump railings. Number four lost an engine in flight and landed safely at another airfield. Number five landed safely at St Eval, and number six did not take off at all. Wing Commander Pickard, the C/O of the new unit at St Eval was not amused!

fredjhh

fredjhh

16th Mar 2010, 22:41

fredjhh

16th Mar 2010, 23:13

REPLY TO RMVENTURI

Apparently, in 1942, Bomber Command was under pressure from the Navy to release aircraft for anti-submarine patrols. 51 Squadron, with several other Whitley and Wellington squadrons were already operating from airfields in the south west. 51 was at Chivenor but due to return to 4 Group. Reluctant to give up whole squadrons, Bomber Command decided some Whitley OTUs could send crews to a new unit called 10 OTU Detachment at St Eval for a short time, before going on to bomber squadrons. My crew was one of the first chosen, as I have recently described. Wing Commander Don Peveller took over from W/C Pickard, and he ran the unit until it was closed in July 1943. Some years before he died, Don told me at a 51 re-union at Wyton, that he believed most of the casualties were from engine failure. All operations were in daylight across the Bay of Biscay down to the coast of Spain, and the idea was to keep U-boats submerged as long as possible on their outward and inward journeys , burning up fuel and shortening their operational patrols. My trips ranged from 9 hours to 11 hours and mostly without a second pilot.
I operated over the winter of 1942/43 and I had left St. Eval by the end of January. fredjhh

rmventuri

17th Mar 2010, 01:42

fredjhh

Thanks you so much for your reply - helps fill in the gaps - the glue that is so difficult to find without talking to someone like yourself who was there. So I would also assume that your long 11 hr anti-sub patrols did not count as ops - was this an issue for the crew?

By the way did you serve at HCU 1663 Rufforth after St. Eval?

Best regards Rodger

fredjhh

17th Mar 2010, 09:44

After Coastal Command we did a week on a Battle Course at Driffield, then three weeks on 1658 HCU at Riccall.
At St. Eval we were told to enter "operational patrols" in red ink.
When we joined 51 Squadron I noticed that my "A" Flight Commander, S/Ldr Russell, had his Chivenor operations counting as half ops. Fred

regle

17th Mar 2010, 12:34

Our small world . I was at 1652 Rufforth in July of 1944 as an Instructor after my ops and had F/lt. Russell and his crew as pupils before his posting to Snaith I also went through 1658 Con Unit at Ricall for a 4 days (sic) Instructor's course before being let loose as an Instructor at 1652 Con Unit at Marston Moor. Regle

regle

17th Mar 2010, 12:41

I also did a "Night Vision" course at Driffield where we were taught some very good tips on better night vision but were also made to play Hockey wearing dark glasses. My Bomb Aimer , Jackie Collins , still has the scar on his forehead where I split it open in the pursuit of better night vision ! Incidentally the eating of carrots to enhance your night vision was shown to be a complete figment of the Ministry of Agricultures effort to increase the consumption of them. It succeeded spectacularly and the myth exists to this day. Regle

regle

17th Mar 2010, 19:55

Fred, I should like to have said that "Ops" must have seemed like a piece of cake after your O.T.U. experiences but it seemed that I would have been wrong. My big regret is that I never got to talkto you when we must have run into each other at the 51 reunions but I look forward, immensely, to your future stories. We were so near together in time at 51 and it's training satellites but thank my stars that I was fortunate enough to escape Whitleys. Blenheims were bad enough but Whitleys thoroughly deserved their apt nickname of nose down flying coffins. Regle.

rmventuri

17th Mar 2010, 20:18

Fredjhh

I noticed that my "A" Flight Commander, S/Ldr Russell, had his Chivenor operations counting as half ops

The half ops explains an enigma that never added up in the past – I had written it off to a mistake or missing information never to be known. Doug’s logbook has all night flights in red (whether an Op or training) and while at Snaith operations were always preceded with “Ops”. Obviously some did not count – noted as “returned early” due to icing up or some mechanical issue. While at St. Eval he was on six long anti-sub patrols which were neither red nor preceded with “Ops” so I had incorrectly assumed did not count. It never made sense to me why these didn’t count but since the numbers never added up I have always questioned it.

When I received his (200+ page) service history his last performance evaluation stated 15 ops as of 9 Oct ’43. I could never make this add up from his log book. The additional 3 ops at St. Eval now reconciles the difference. The ill fated Leipzig raid of 4 Dec ’43 was his 20th op.

(Stupid?) question for all – was photographic evidence required to get credit for an op? Would you ever get credit for an op if you were well on your way then forced to return early however bombed an alternate target?

Thanks
Rodger

fredjhh

17th Mar 2010, 22:29

I don't think photo evidence was needed. I seem to remember that you had to pass beyond 5 degrees East to count as an operation, unless operating over France or to Italy. Fredjhh.

taxydual

17th Mar 2010, 23:03

In John Beede's book ("They Hosed Them Out"), he mentions that photo evidence was required of the bomb run (and hits) for a sortie to be counted as an "Op". He recalls it was introduced as some crews were returning 'with dubious excuses' for DNCO.

Flying straight and level over the target to get the 'photo'!!.

Utmost respect.

fredjhh

17th Mar 2010, 23:11

I don't think photo evidence was needed. I seem to remember that you had to pass beyond 5 degrees East to count as an operation, unless operating over France or to Italy. Fredjhh.

regle

17th Mar 2010, 23:44

There was no hard and fast rule laid down and a huge amount depended upon the C.O. of the Squadron. There were some constants and amongst them were not carrying on for a reason that could not be well and truly explained and believed. This would never count as an Op wherever you turned back from. If this happened with the same individual more than was deemed normal there were some very hard examinations made with questions asked to the crew members and drastic action would be quickly taken. It also differed fromn Command to Command and even from Squadron to Squadron. There was also a vast difference in what constituded an Op. Mine laying, for example ,invariably counted as a "half op" however close to the enemy coast you became. Later, much later in the war when the attacks on such targets as V1, V2 sites , ground troops, general bombing of so called tactical targets became more current, the whole system changed dramatically and the duration of a tour became more the decision of the immediate Officer commanding the Squadron.
Apropos the entries in Log books I never encountered any rules whatsoever as to how entries should be made and , apart from the obligatory monthly summary on hours flown and dates, the log books were never examined but had to be signed at those times by the Flight Commander. However it was customary but not mandatory that night flying would be inserted in red ink but only in the night flying column. I, like a lot of people but not everyone, entered my Ops in red ink in the remarks column and underlined the whole entry with red ink but this was a personal choice and by no means everyone's method.
One last bit of friendly advice. Ask these questions now ! Regle

regle

18th Mar 2010, 00:01

I (file://\\I) meant to answer this in my previous thread. Taxydual, flying straight and level over the target was absolutely vital not to get the photograph but to make sure that you got the aiming point . I would estimate that this was carried out faithfully by 75% of all the crews and there would be keen competition amongst Squadrons for the most aiming points on the photos each month. Whilst not employing the American method of the automatic pilot being linked up with the famous Nordern gunsight during the whole of the bombing run , you virtually handed control of the aircraft to the Bomb Aimer and followed his instructions immediately. You kept it straight and level with the agreed constant airspeed and then followed the famous "Right or Left left " which was given by him. The repeat of the left call was to make sure that the pilot did not misunderstand. In anticipation "No, I was never told "Back a little, Skipper " I am sure that you will remember my most weird straight and level run across the target, Berlin, when a Messerschmidt 109 formated slightly ahead and below my port side , pointed at his guns and shrugged his shoulders and accompanied me on my bombing run before saluting and halfrolling into a dive . Oh for a camera ! regle

Icare9

18th Mar 2010, 09:35

Hello, Rodger and nice to see you back on here.

When you catch up on your reading, you will see that cliffnemo has been making efforts to contact nachtgeschwader crew to inveigle them into joining this thread. It may be worth contacting him to see if any of his contacts may be able to locate a bi-lingual researcher for the flakartillerie records at the time Doug was lost on the Leipzig Op. Because Connie got their wedding ring returned, I'm convinced the wreckage came down in the vicinity of Leipzig, if not in the target area itself. The fact that neither any wreckage of HR732 or any of the crew were found indicates that the midair explosion fragmented the aircraft so much that the Germans probably never realised they had a complete Halifax and thus didn't search more thoroughly for the crew. If they had identified a crew member, then they would have looked fairly thoroughly for the rest and the associated wreckage to link them to. At least you have the news of the Ops totals being solved to pass on to the rest of the crews families.

This website may have some contacts if anyone can translate better than Google or Babelfish! Flakartillerie (http://aufhimmelzuhause.com/id15.htm)

Apologies to all for deviation and hesitation!! Just a minute!!

kookabat

18th Mar 2010, 12:36

On 'What counted as an op', I recall Max Hastings in Bomber Command writing something about French targets initially only counting as one third.
"Then", he wrote, "they went to Mailly-le-Camp".
The Mailly operation - which my great uncle and his crew were on, a week before they were shot down - was a raid on a German army camp in France on I think 3 May 1944. There was (among other things... I'm still looking at Jack's early operations so haven't reached this one in any detail yet) a delay in marking, which led to many bombers milling around the target while waiting for the markers to go down. The nightfighters had a field day - out of about 540 aircraft on target, 48 or so were missing.

Interestingly enough a similar thing happened over Lille the next week - markers were obscured or extinguished quickly by the first bombs so a delay of some 20 minutes was incurred. Out of 89 aircraft dispatched, four aborted... and no less than 12 were shot down, six of those from Waddington. My great uncle was in the crew of one of the missing aircraft.

As Hastings wrote, "there was no more talk of French targets counting as a third of an op […] lingering around a target for accurate visual marking could be fatal."

regle

18th Mar 2010, 23:06

The long and arduous course eventually came to an end and I was relieved to face the three examiners for the oral examination that would determine my future. One of the most difficult questions and known favourite of the examiners was to explain the complicated formula for thrust that had covered the blackboard during the course and had given me nightmares. I was determined to master it and had learnt it off by heart and was overjoyed when it came up as one of my questions.
The Chairman of the Questioners, The Chief Pilot was an old veteran and pioneer of Sabena's first flights to the Belgian Congo. I could see that I was boring him to tears with my dissertation on the question and when he asked me "Why are the noise bafflers , commonly called Thrust Destroyers ?" and I started to refer him to the "Area" portion of the formula, he interrupted me, said" Well done, Thank you " and I was in.
My fellow trainee, Charles W. had also passed and on the 19th.March 1964 we started our flying training. There was no simulator available at that time and this was our first real view of the 707 cockpit. We were fortunate in having, as our Instructor, one of the finest and well liked pilots in Sabena. Bobby Laumans had escaped to England when Belgium was invaded,had been accepted straight away in the RAF , had married an English girl and had been shot down and spent the war in captivity. His English was perfect and he was a charming man and wonderful Instructor.
It is exactly 46 years to the day tomorrow when I first took off in a jet aeroplane after 14,497 piston engine hours and I was nearly 42 years old. We started our flying on March 19th. 1964 and by March 23rd. had completed a shared 27 hours of flying. I will quote direct from my logbook the details of the exercises we performed. Familiarisation, general flying, stalls etc. 3 & 2 engine flying, runaway stabiliser,circuits, ILS, Dutch roll, emergency descents,tuck under, engine failure before and after V1, 3 & 2 engine flying and landings and finally a little night flying.
The runaway stabiliser was a very important part and was very sadly remembered in Sabena as it was the cause of one of the first 707 crashes.
On Feb.15th. 1961, one of our new Boeings coming from N.Y. and on final approach at around 1,000 feet had suffered a runaway stabiliser and had crashed near a little village, Berg, killing the 11 crew, 62 passengers and a Farmer working in his fields. I was in a classroom doing a DC 7C course when it happened and we all ran out to see the plume of black smoke in the distance. We knew all the crew, of course and morale was very low for a long time afterwards.
The stabiliser problem was eventually solved before I came on to the 707 ,but remained a nightmare so the emergency procedure , which involved grasping the rapidly rotating massive trim wheel with the bare hands , was taught. Most people wore gloves for the duration of the flight. Another nasty habit was that of the aircraft suddenly adopting what was called the " Dutch Roll". This was because it developed a motion akin to the appearance of the Dutch Speed Ice Skaters when a wing would drop and the A/C would turn towards it, recover and turn in the opposite direction , descending and building up a horrible momentum which would eventually put the A/C into a spin. Sabena never had an accident but there were numerous "near misses ". The installation of a small fin underneath the fuselage under the rudder cured this and had been installed by the time that I came on to the aircraft.
On April 3rd. 1964 I stepped into the cockpit of Sabena OO-SJC and took off for New York with my Instructor and Chief pilot as my Check pilots and first officers. A veritable new era in Aviation had dawned and much more was in store for me. What a wondeful feeling that first jet flight was....almost as good as that day back in 1941 when I had first dicovered the new dimension in my life.

rmventuri

19th Mar 2010, 05:19

Reg,
One last bit of friendly advice. Ask these questions now ! Regle
Don’t mind if I do as long as all can tolerate the occasional daft one.

I’m trying to connect the dots to determine when the Halifax crew of HR732 actually crewed up. Because you and Fred overlapped so significantly with Doug’s service timeline I think you can help (by the way I can hardly remember what I was doing at age 20 so your recollection of this era 70 years ago is nothing short of amazing).

Reg – Doug arrived at Snaith 4 July 1943 which I think was very close to your arrival?
From Doug’s log book and service history it is clear that he (rear gunner) and the pilot (Arthur Salvage) crewed up at 10 OTU Abingdon flying Whitley V’s and stayed together to the end. That would be from 10 OTU Abingdon to 10 OTU detachment St. Eval (Whitley V’s) to 1663 HCU Rufforth (Halifax V) to 51 Squadron Snaith (Halifax II A)

Fred, I was interested in your explanation of the Whitley crew with a second pilot/bomb aimer and Harris’ decision to eliminate two pilots on any single aircraft. It looks like you were about 5 or 6 months ahead of Doug so I am conjecturing that by the time Doug was at 10 OTU there was not a second pilot on the Whitley and the (5) crew consisted of Pilot, Bomb Aimer, WOP/Gunner, Navigator, Rear Gunner. I don’t know if this is accurate or not. If it is then the additional two crew for the Halifax would have been picked up at the HCU – the additional two would have been the mid upper gunner and the engineer. Does this make sense? I thought an Observer was on the Whitley so don’t’ know how that would play into the final crew up on the Halifax.

As always very appreciative of your thoughtful responses … Rodger

rmventuri

19th Mar 2010, 06:06

Kevin,
My oldest uncle (Doug's older brother) - the elder Milliken now at age 91 (served with the Royal Navy in WW2) is traveling to California to visit us for a week in April - A topic for discussion will be his thoughts on hiring a researcher. Once again Kevin I cannot express my thanks for your many hours of research for us. Doug's best friend (from grade school to enlistment) Mert Zapfe was KIA while at Snaith on his very first raid in May '43 (new crew/new plane - got lost out of the stream over Amsterdam and picked off by a night fighter). We have connected with Mert's sister who hired a very knowledgeable researcher also recommended by the 51 squadron historians as outstanding. So we will be talking to him in the near future. Keep your fingers crossed.

I have a group picture of Doug Milliken/Mert Zapfe/Jack O'Dowda (all 51 Squadron) and Jack Thompson taken in Canada before heading overseas - all best friends - they couldn't have been more than 18 or 19 years old. From the picture you can see their youthful excitement to "join the air force and see the world". None of them came home. I still find it difficult to look at that picture.

Rodger

Icare9

19th Mar 2010, 11:31

regle: Interesting info on the problems with the 707. It has obviously been overshadowed by the Comet accidents, but it's a timely reminder that the US aircraft industry DID make its share of mistakes too. (Wasn't the Convair Coronado another design that didn't work too well?).

Your account of the crash seems a tad abbreviated, wasn't that the one with the US Olympic skating team aboard? I thought that was the first commercial 707 crash, so I'm sure there were lengthy enquiries into what had happened.
No doubt you are going to bring more incisive comments in a bit later, so apologies if I have jumped the gun!!

PS: Have you checked your emails lately?

Rodger: You know that all I am trying to do is in some small way assuage the debt owed to those who fought for our freedom. I don't have much to contribute except a willingness to try and help where possible. It's the expertise and knowledge of contributors to this thread that keep me interested!! They're the ones who have first hand accounts which clarify so much. Good luck with your continued research into Doug's early stages in the RAF. I'm sure others will help where they can!

regle

19th Mar 2010, 12:15

I see that I made an air test at Snaith on July 21st. 1943 and went to Hamburg on the 24th .'43. on what was to become to known as the "Fire bomb" raids when the RAF bombed Hamburg for three consecutive nights whilst the Americans followed each day. It makes me shudder to think of it to this day. So although Fred was already at Snaith, I cannot remember meeting him and he was certainly not in my Flight (C).
Icare9. Sorry if I did not go more into the Berg crash but my memory has erased the details as memories are wont to do over unpleasant things... Yes, the entire US Ice skating team en route to Prague for the World Ice Skating Championships, were killed, together with many members of their families who were accompanying them. I did mention it in one of my earlier threads together with the awkward moment when I went ice skating in New York on one of my trips and was asked by one of the professionals what I did and when I told him there was an awkward silence before he told me he had lost his fiancee in the accident. One of life's lesser moments ! If you Google, Sabena Accident, Berg they have a fairly comprehensive account. I wish that I could remember more of the corrective actions for the runaway stab. and also the Dutch Roll but ,there again , it was another lifetime ago. Regle

regle

19th Mar 2010, 12:23

I am having a lot of trouble with my e-mails lately. Many that I send and appear as "Sent items" are not reaching their destinations. I try Send/receive , draft etc. but it is still going on. Any suggestions in PM please.

Blacksheep

19th Mar 2010, 13:18

I wish that I could remember more of the corrective actions for the runaway stab. When on B707 Major Maintenance at BA I understood the procedure was for the Captain to grab the trim wheel on the F/O's side, the F/O to grab the trim wheel on the Captain's side and the FE to open the circuit breaker for the Stab Trim Motor. The ultimate engineering fix was a mechanical interlock that gagged the stab trim drive system if pressure was applied to the control column in the opposite sense - i.e trim runaway nose down, pilot instinctively pulls back on the column and the drive locks and vice-versa. The ultimate fix for Dutch Roll was a full-time rate-rate yaw damper.

fredjhh

19th Mar 2010, 16:08

REEPLY TO RMVENTURI

The decision to fly only one pilot was made in February/ March 1942, as I understood. As soon as a pilot was cleared to fly solo, he flew with another pupil in the 2nd seat, simply to allow quick changeovers on circuits and bumps. The second pilot logged it as “Passenger time.” When crewed up for training and cross country exercises, the crew was as you describe it. All navigators were originally given the “O’ wing showing them as qualified Navigators and Bomb-Aimers. When the new Bomb - Aimers were awarded their B/A wings the Observers were supposed to wear the new “N” badge, but many persisted in wearing “O”, at least on their Best Blue uniforms. My crew at Snaith had two “Observers” and they both wore the “O” wing. F/O Dothie was the navigator and F/O Nock was the Bomb-Aimer. We picked up a Flight Engineer and Mid-Upper Gunner at Riccall. Nock had a broken finger and did not fly with me the night we were shot down.
The five man crew was what we operated with at St Eval. On three trips I had a newly qualified pilot attached as a “Second Dickie,” but they were destined for Coastal Command. For Observer use Navigator, - the same thing.
Ten hours flying at 300 feet to 800 feet with no second pilot was a pain, especially if “George” packed up. fredjhh

Icare9

19th Mar 2010, 17:00

PM sent, no brilliant solution I'm afraid, perhaps a call to your family expert!
Meantime can you try by replying to one of mine with a "test" message to see if that works?
I didn't mean to badger re 707, I've got many decades (decayeds?) on you and I can't remember much of my twenties (not not sex, drugs or rock 'n roll!!) Well, maybe some.... :O

raguoC

20th Mar 2010, 11:14

In your post: A Spitfire Pilot Part 6 there was mention of Derek Olver and his wife Kay. Sadly Derek did not survive WW11. He died on the 15th March 1942 while training pilots near Grantham, Lincolnshire. I was told that one of his trainee (Free French - I believe) pilots clipped his wing and tragically there was no chance of survival. His wife Kay never really recovered from his loss. However unknown to her at the time of his death, after six years of marriage, my brother Derek John Richard Olver was preparing to make his appearance.

My mother, Kay remarried my father, Ward Ira Binkley, who was in the Canadian Intelligence Corps in 1945. They are no longer with us.

During the past few years, I have been doing some family tree research, which has taken in several branches. If anyone else has any further accounts of Derek Olver Acting Flying Officer, I would greatly appreciate any information so that I can pass it on to his son, grandson and granddaughters.

Thank you for your accounts.

The Battle of Britain Memorial Flight has frequently flown past our home in Lincolnshire. They bring with them memories of those brave young men of my parents' generation to whom I will forever be grateful.

tow1709

20th Mar 2010, 12:46

Some more of Peter's operations with 183 Sqn...

On the second of November [1943] I flew aircraft HF-T on a shipping reconnaissance in the area of the Goulet de Brest. The weather was not too good with low cloud at about 2000 ft and rain showers. We were flying quite low, at about 250 ft. We kept well out from the coast of France in our search for shipping and we came upon two smallish merchant ships sailing in line astern about five miles west of Camaret-sur-Mer.
The C.O. split us into two groups of four to each ship. I was number two in the group attacking the larger of the two ships. As we turned in to the attack both ships opened up with 20mm and 40mm AA fire. It was my first experience of being fired at with tracer and it was rather unnerving. Although there were probably only three or four guns on each ship the fact that all the firing was coming from a small area, towards which we were exactly heading, made it seem very concentrated. The red dots would seem to float gently towards you and the suddenly speed up and zip past -what seemed like only inches away. I tried my best to ignore the tracer and concentrated on getting as low as possible. The idea was to fly directly at the ship and release the bombs at the last second just as you were forced to pull up to avoid hitting the masts or rigging. The trick was to release the bombs at just the right moment. Too soon and they would fall short and explode harmlessly in the sea, too late and they would fly over the ship to do the same thing on the far side. I don't know where my bombs went, perhaps I hit the ship but can' t be sure. At least two of us did, and as we left both ships were on fire and the larger one looked as if it were sinking. We did not wait around to find out however since we were now without bombs and had accomplished our mission. As we formed up again I realized that somebody was missing. F/O Alan Palmer, who had been No 3 in the first group, had been hit on the run-in and had crashed into the sea and been killed. His number 2 had seen it happen and later reported it at the debriefing. We flew back to Predannack in sombre mood and, as we approached the airfield, we formed up in close formation of two 'Finger Four' sections. It was the accepted form that, if any aircraft were missing on the return from an operation, the remaining aircraft flew in as close formation as possible, leaving the appropriate formation position empty so that the ground crews would know how many and which aircraft were missing.
A couple of days later I flew a spare aircraft to Harrowbeer and back where the squadron went to carry out an operation. Then on the 5th November it was dive bombing again. The target was the airfield at Poulmic, south of Brest on the far bank of The Goulet de Brest. We were only airborne for about 50 minutes since, as we approached the French Coast the cloud was down to below 1000ft and the leader decided it was no good trying to bomb from that height so we turned back. On the way back we jettisoned our bombs into the sea by turning the arming switches off, selecting the drop switches and then pressing the bomb release button on the command of the leader. The bed of the English Channel must be littered with jettisoned bombs. We were flying very low as we returned and I was No.2 in the second four flying on the left of my No.1. The first four were slightly ahead of us and a bit to the left. I suddenly saw the number three of this four, Flight Sergeant Arthur Napier, disappear in a cloud of spray. My immediate thought was that he had dived into the sea, but no, the aircraft emerged from the cloud of spray but began to drop back. Arthur called up the leader to say that he had hit the sea and he was experiencing severe vibration which was causing him to reduce his airspeed. We all throttled back and kept station with him as we flew home at a slower speed. When we landed, we all went to look at his aircraft. Two blades of his three bladed propellor were bent forward about six inches at the tips. This had happened as they had just touched the sea. This meant that he had come within five or six feet of hitting the sea with his radiator which would no doubt have flipped him over and almost certainlykilled him. He said that the vibration on the way back was so bad that he felt as if he were still shaking some half hour after landing. I later heard stories of other Typhoons which had hit the sea and survived and in some cases the propellor blades had been bent backwards. I have since wondered how this was possible since the propellor was pulling the aircraft through the air and, as it was then suddenly hitting a much denser medium, the water, it surely should have bent forward as did the one I witnessed. [TOW1709: Apparently if you strike the sea or ground with the engine at high power, the tips will bend forwards. If the strike happens at idle power, they bend the other way]

The same team tried to bomb Poulmic again the next day and this time, although we managed to reach the target, the cloudbase was still too low to allow us to bomb and once again the bombs were jettisoned into the English channel. The weather then really clamped down and Predannack was shrouded in mist and rain for over two weeks. Several times we were alerted to stand by for operations but the weather was against us and I did not fly again between the 7th and the 21st of November. I took part in a shipping strike reconnaissance on the 21st November carrying two 500lb bombs but no shipping was found and yet again the English channel received sixteen unarmed bombs.
At this time we were going out with two squadrons at a time. One squadron of eight acting as bombers accompanied by the second squadron eight without bombs acting as fighter escort. Thus, the next day, I was with the squadron acting as fighter escort. All I noted in my log book was that we saw a large ship which the bombers attacked without visible result and we suffered no losses although the ship was escorted by two flak ships.
The 23rd November saw me flying again as fighter escort but this time we, the fighters, also attacked the two small ships that we found. Once again no dramatic results were observed from our cannon strafe although I did note in my log book that there was "a hell of a lot of flak".
I must admit that I greatly preferred the fighter role since this meant that the Typhoon was flown without bomb racks or other encumbrances and was much more lively than when carrying bombs. Unfortunately the days of acting as fighters were numbered since there were so many more effective fighting aircraft and the Typhoon was becoming known as a very stable gun platform which could stand up to quite a severe amount of punishment. There was a constant stream of modifications being carried out to improve its role as a ground attack aircraft and also to overcome the one main structural drawback. Quite a few Typhoons literally came apart in the air. Several were lost due to the tail assembly breaking off under severe manoeuvres. At least three modifications were carried out to the tail unit. At one time the fuselage just forward of the tail plane exhibited a series of patch plates placed all round at each longeron position. This was later replaced by internal strengthening. Although this improved the situation, and as far as we knew had cured it, I found out after the war that Typhoons were still mysteriously crashing for no apparent reason right up to their withdrawal from service in 1946 ! The incidence of these crashes seems to have been completely random and luckily I never had occasion to doubt the strength of any Typhoon that I flew, although there were one or two occasions when aircraft in the same formation went missing without obvious cause.

More soon...

regle

20th Mar 2010, 23:30

It is so gratifying to see new contributors and above all, younger ones.. I feel that there will, inevitably come a time when you will be asked to do what the present generation are already doing.. It is virtually upon us already. I am not going to say any more on that because it would not be printable. Like every generation and especially in wartime we had our own words and expressions so I urge you not to hesitate in asking if there is anything that you don't understand. Please let us have your own impressions, suggestions and, above all questions. . I can remember , as an eighteen year old, when I first joined the R.A.F, that I felt as though I was entering a foreign country and could barely understand the different dialects because, like most of my generation ,I had probably never been more than fifty miles from home and I had never sworn in my life. Never feel foolish about it Time is running out fast for the answers to be given from experience. I am not being the least bit morbid, just practical. Quoting Delia "Let's be 'earing from you." Good to have you aboard, regle

rmventuri

21st Mar 2010, 00:11

Regle,
I read somewhere that you have a copy of Guy Gibson's logbook? If so can you tell where he was in March of 1942. I am trying to determine if he was in Canada at that time. Thanks in advance .... Rodger

Icare9

21st Mar 2010, 10:57

Rodger - looks like he was there in late 1943 - see attached link:- Dambuster - Guy Gibson (http://www.airtattooshop.com/shop/Books_Music_DVDs/Music/TRD200897_CD) which was recorded in Canada and now available on CD.
Dambuster - Guy Gibson. Product code: TRD200897/CD. £10.95
A unique CD featuring an exclusive interview recording made in Canada in late 1943 with Wg Cdr Guy Gibson and, following the Dambusters March, 8 of Guy Gibson's favourite records are included - with additional comments from actor Richard Todd. Also includes an interview with 617 Squadron Lancaster crew who describe the attack on the Mohne dam.
I'm sure others will provide more specific dates. Reg probably flew with him!! (Probably was his instructor and taught him the trick about how to judge when you were 60 ft above water!!)

You may also be able to get hold of a copy of the book The Dambusters
This is an excellent biography of Guy Gibson of which the Dams Raid is only a very small part of the book. The book covers the life of Gibson from birth to death.The story of his unhappy childhood from a broken home, his tense and failing marriage,his relationship with his men, which wasn't alway the best,particularly the ground crew.His life wasn't easy but through his determination he was noticed and came to lead the raid that was to make his name.Some of the book covers his tour of Canada and America and his dabble with politics and selection as a Parliamentary Candidate.The story of the making of the Film "The Dambusters" starring Richard Todd was good, including the "Spooky" incident involving the dog that was to play the part of Gibsons dog.The final chapters involving the fatal crash,the theory of how it may have been caused,together with the legacy of Gibson makes for a very interesting read.

regle

21st Mar 2010, 16:25

Guy illustrated his log book graphically With pithy remarks and large letters underlined in many coloured inks and the heading for the 1st. Jan. 1941 was "WITH THE NEW YEAR I AM POSTED AS CFI TO 51 OTU. CRANFIELD. THIS BEING HELD AS A REST FROM OPERATIONS !!! He then signed it Guy Gibson S/L.

He flew during the whole of the month in Magisters,Oxford,Lysander,Dominie,Blenheim, and Wellington. In only one of these trips,20 in all, did he fly as a C.F.I. for a test on a Sgt. Murphy. Another typical flight that month was in a Lysander to West Malling with "Dave Humphreys . 48 hour pass was in the remarks column.
March 1942 he only flew from the 1st. until the 12th. (3 flights) and his next entry is on April 1 1942 when he was still at Cranfield but by now had added the "Manchester" to his list. He does not always keep a record of his stations and there is no list in the back of the book. (It is a copy ).

After May 6th.1942 There is an entry "Fell ill and went to Rauceby for two weeks" and his next entry is June 14th. "in an Oxford to Cardiff for two weeks sick leave. On July 4th.1942 with no mention as to where,( My remark ,Syerston) he is back on Operations, this time for the first on Lancasters with the remark "Usual crew. Operations bombing Wilhelmshaven, 10,000 ft. (Low, my remark) load 5x2,000 H.C. Good Prang . The trip took 4hrs night flying.

In March 1943 he made a NFT on the 1st. and then on the 11th. he made this entry. "Lancaster X. My last trip 71st. bombers.Operations Stuttgart. Flew there/back on three engines and a quarter. good trip. Flak light. Photo.Main attack fell S/W of main town." The next two pages are a summary of his career in which he made 42 ops on Hampdens, 99 Fighter ops on Beaufighters and 29 on Lancasters !!!!!!! 170 in all. HIis next entry on the following page just states Awarded bar to D.S.O. 25th. March 1943. I will leave you there and hope that it gives you the information that you want. Obviously he was not in Canada during this period. If this interests you all ,I can go on the next few months with what he wrote about certain things...very little actually. Regle

regle

21st Mar 2010, 16:32

No, I wish that I had met him regardless of his reputation BUT I did have the great pleasure of having Richard Todd, the actor who portrayed him in the film , in the cockpit with me when he flew with me as a passenger from Brussels. Richard was the most charming and self effacing of men and told me that it was the greatest honour that he had ever had in his career when he was selected to play the part. Keep trying ! REGLE

regle

21st Mar 2010, 16:37

Make sure that you can always see your shadow in the water so don't fly at midday or night . Regle

kaputar

21st Mar 2010, 20:41

Taking Regle at his word to ask questions now. I have been enthralled with this thread and read through it avidly. Amongst many questions, the 'Corkscrew' manoeuvre used to throw off German nightfighters, which I understood to be a diving turn followed by an opposite climbing turn. Was this employed when a nightfighter was either spotted or suspected, or did pilots use it routinely 'in case'? If heavy bombers were as heavy on the controls as I imagine, surely this would be an exhausting way to fly for many hours? Kap

rmventuri

21st Mar 2010, 22:09

Regle and Icare9 - Thats more than enough re: Guy Gibson's log book info. Thanks.

regle

21st Mar 2010, 23:25

If you have, as you say, read through my threads (Starting page 13 !) then you will see that I have described exactly what you are asking. Yes it was extremely hard work, especially in the Halifax which was significantly heavier on the controls than the Lancaster but I thought that it was worth the effort and like a lot, but I fear a minority, of pilots corkscrewed practically from crossing the enemy coast until the straight and level bombing run and then I restarted until I had recrosssed the coast. Even that was not enough later on as the German intruders caught many of the returning bombers on the way out and even on the approach to land. Later on there was even a "Corkscrew" mode built into the Automatic Pilot which helped matters considerably until the Germans worked out the exact "next move" as there was no different modes built in.Keep asking , regle.

kaputar

22nd Mar 2010, 10:00

Many thanks indeed for that. Yes I did read the post where you said this but couldn't find it again and wondered if I had misunderstood. The idea that a pilot would corkscrew all the way to Berlin and back leaves me gobsmacked with admiration. desperately hard work for the pilot but also for the rest of the crew I imagine. The reason I raised it is that I first heard about the corkscrew from and old rear gunner, now sadly no longer with us, who gave me to understand that it was used only when the gunners spotted something suspicious or they were actually under attack otherwise they flew straight and level on the course. So my further question is, was it was it advised or even ordered at squadron level, or simply down to individual pilots to decide? Were new green crews introduced to it? Kap

regle

22nd Mar 2010, 17:54

Thetwo main reasons for the minority use of "Corkscrew" were the physical effort and the real risk of collision because you were entering altitudes allocated to different groups than your own,with another friendly aircraft as a result of the extreme concentration of the Bomber stream which was now the tactic adopted in preference to a long drawn out raid over several hours in order to cause disruption and fatigue amongst the firefighting crews and the population. There was also the effect on the crew, as airsickness was quite a problem due to "Corkscrew". And there was always the Navigator , the breed apart, who very often got his own way. Weaving was very often preferred. This consisted of gentle alternate turns without losing height. This was quite generally used but the advent of the "Nacht Musak", the German name for the Msserschmidt 110 armed with four fixed angled upward firing cannons , tracking his victim from miles behind and gradually creeping under to let loose a lethal burst which usually hit the centre fuel tank made me and I think, a lot of other pilots corkscrew from start to finish of the dangerous part, about 90% of the whole trip.
I know that one of the reasons that I am still here today is that when just finishing my straight and level bombing run over Mannheim on Sept.5th.1943 I immediately started a violent diving turn to port as the beginning of a Corkscrew. At that moment a burst of machine gun or cannon fire came from slightly behind and below right across in front and climbing above me. My magnificent rear gunner , "Geordie" Tommy Walker saw the Messershcmidt 110 and gave him a quick burst. We all saw the Messerschmidt burst in to flames and crash. ( I am glad that I don't have to type Messer etc. too often.). As a matter of interest the tactic of the deadly "Nacht Musak" was a direct result of the great success of Bomber Command's first use of "Window" (On Hamburg July 23rd. 1943, My first "Op" on Halifaxes) when the Night Fighter Radar system of the Germans was completely swamped. The reply was the use of every fighter possible, even Day Fighters to congregate over the brightly lit targets (from the fires and a carpet of concentrated searchlights) . The fighters would wait at a much higher altitude possible to the bombers and dive on the victims silhouetted below whilst the "Nacht Musak " fighters tracked in and out of the target and did what they could below the stream approaching and leaving the target . The stream, once it was established was often illuminated by flares dropped from observing German aircraft to guide the Fighters towards it. This Day Fighter operation was called "Wild Sow" by the Germans.
As targets such as Berlin, Munich, Leipzig were trips of over eight hours (That Mannheim trip was logged as eight hours night flying) yes, it was a big strain but you should have seen the biceps of the veterans after a successful tour. ! Regle

kaputar

22nd Mar 2010, 21:29

Many thanks again regle for the marvelous detail not found in the standard histories. Raises further questions (and then I promise to shut up). The night fighters with upward firing cannon did not always, I understand, use tracer and consequently crews often did not know what hit them even after they had been hit. Do you recall when this tactic became known to RAF intelligence and aircrew were briefed about it? Secondly, my old rear gunner informant told me that officialdom tried to explain away the enormous flash to be seen occasionally in the bomber stream, as the clever German's using a shell called a 'Scarecrow' to simulate a loaded bomber taking a direct hit and hoping thereby to put the wind up crews. He said they did not believe a word of it, they called them 'Ronsons', and accepted them for what they thought they were and carried on. Do you know any evidence that 'scarecrow' actually existed?

regle

22nd Mar 2010, 23:50

"Scarecrow" came from the same box of myths as the title of the thread. There was extensive searching and interrogation after rhe war and no evidence was ever found to justify the existemce of what was labelled Scarecrow by the British crews as they had been told, probably to improve morale , that it was a false indication of a bomber exploding ... which it probably was. It is even possible , because Scarecrow came into the language later on in the Bomber Offensive, that it was the result of the aforementioned "Nacht Musak" where the catastrophic strike on the central fuel tank would have producd an enormous explosion. Especially if no tracer had been seen beforehand.
As to the tracer, I can't see anyone in the attacked aircraft being able to see tracer directed from directly underneath so the question could only be answered if the whole attack had been seen from another aircraft and I doubt that it ever happened because, to my knowledge, there is no record of such a sighting. Perhaps if we ever have a German point of view in the Forum we might get to know more but I am sure that our intelligence would have gone in to that sort of thing after the war.
Your very kind remarks about the sort of information that we few are still able to give you makes it more important to refresh our memories by posing these questions. I find that just the mention of a long forgotten event or detail brings back an astonishing amount when it is linked with something else that appears and ,"lo and behold" it all comes flooding back. I can still only remember one line from "Eskimo Nell" ..and though she grinned, she put the wind, up the other forty-nine, ! I will leave you with that profound thought. regle

Brian Abraham

23rd Mar 2010, 02:21

regle, a penny for your thoughts. The Lancaster is the aircraft that has captured the limelight, but it is said in some quarters that the later marks of Halifax were its equal. Be interested in your comments on the relative merits of the two aircraft ie strengths and weaknesses.

And what do you personally make of the oft made proposal/theory/argument of replacing the heavy bombers with Mosquitos (two crew, two engines against seven crew, four engines and using the smaller aircrafts speed as a means of defense). Respect.

kaputar

23rd Mar 2010, 09:40

Many thanks again Regle for the fascinating detail. My father joined the RAAF on outbreak of war, coming to Britain as an WAG early 1942 when I was 6 months old and died March 1943 so I never 'met' him so to speak and the barest service records are all there is. So its the detail of 'doing the job' that fascinates, interesting though the formal histories are. Thanks again and I may jog your memory again if I may. All best. Kaputar

kookabat

23rd Mar 2010, 09:46

For something somewhat connected to the discussion... I have a superbly written account from a retired Qantas 707 pilot - who was an RAAF engine fitter in WWII, then joined Qantas as a flight engineer after the war and eventually retrained as a pilot - about his experiences converting to the jet age. If people are interested I should be able to post it in the next few days?

Icare9

23rd Mar 2010, 10:50

kaputar: Then it must be close to that March anniversary, our thoughts are with you. Mind you, your description of him:
My father joined the RAAF on outbreak of war, coming to Britain as an WAG early 1942 when I was 6 months old and died March 1943 so I never 'met' him so to speak and the barest service records are all there is.
would be interpreted differently in current football parlance!!!

I'm sure there are many who could try and help you find out more, with Squadron details etc if you want to do so, perhaps in a separate thread or another forum, such as RAF Commands or the like. If you want to contact me off thread, please do so if you'd like me to post there on your behalf.

kookabat. If there is approval by the Moderators, and because it then links as a comparison for Regle, then I for one would like to see the Quantas story. To appease the Mods, would it be possible to also have his memories of his RAAF training, again to provide a comparison to those already detailed in this thread.

If it doesn't destroy any bookmark links, the Mods might consider transferring to Aviation History and Nostalgia, but I only float the idea to allow for expansion into what "pedants" might feel is not "military" history.....

Regle: Have you checked your PPRuNe private message Inbox lately? I might even get you some lyrics for Eskimo Nell, that may trigger more verses from you!!

Meantim, look forward to your views of the merits of the Lancaster versus Halifax. Apart from sympathy, how was the Stirling regarded by its crews - I know others felt them useful as the softer targets for night fighters but how sturdy and easy to fly was it?

fredjhh

23rd Mar 2010, 11:20

KAPUTAR
My war ended in June 1943 and I did not hear of "Corkscrew" or
"Upward firing cannons" (Schrage Musik) until later pilots brought the news into Prison Camp. I did try corkscrew when flying Welingtons in 1946 but I do not think I could have kept it up for very long. The only tactics I was taught was 'weaving' - minor alterations of course, but I also included alterations of height. An Artillery Major in Ack Ack said his predictors "overbalanced" if tracking an aircraft which lost or gained height for more than 400 feet!
On my last briefing we were told to make the final approach, before the straight and level bombing run, just oscillating up and down; no heights were given.
An excellent book giving the German point of view was written by a 51 Squadron Navigator who worked in Germany after the war.
He spoke fluent German and made friends with many Luftwaffe Officers, some of very high rank. He regularly attended 51 Squadron re-unions.
"The Other Battle" by Peter Hinchcliffe, OBE.
Airlife Publishing Ltd. 101 Longden Road, Shrewsbury, SY3 9EB
ISBN 1 85310 547 3
It is well researched and and gives an impartial view of the night war above Germany. Incidentally, Goering implored the German aviation industry to make him aircraft "like the Mosquito." fredjhh
Sadly, Peter died last year.

cliffnemo

23rd Mar 2010, 11:57

Hi Reg, Yes I Skyped the Researcher. Thanks for the contact. I had a very long and pleasant phone conversation with him yesterday, when he said it would be better if he contacted his German contacts first, With which sentiment I agreed, on the basis of an email from a stranger may not be opened. I will let every one know the results soon.. Will P.M you now with the answer to your question. (Mr Researcher we would like you to make yourself known on this thread)

With regard to R.A.F songs, I would like your opinion on the song 'I am safe in the eyes of j**** , I don't care if it rains or freezes , I am J**** little lamb, yes by J**** C***** I am, J**** loves me yes I know. good old J***, bloody good show.' Although extremely irreverent, I always suspected that it was, in the mind of the singer, intended more as a crude prayer or hymn.

thegypsy

23rd Mar 2010, 12:25

fredjhh

Re the corkscrew and your comment you had not heard about it until later as a POW.

If you go to page 81 post No 1608 you will see that I was quoting exactly from a combat report that my father wrote up in 1943 in a Stirling over Lorient where one of his gunners told him to corkscrew to avoid a Me 109 which they shot down.

Before bombers he was an Instructor on Oxfords at RAF South Cerney for over 3 years. Now whether he taught pupils the corkscrew or whether it was taught him on his conversion to Stirlings in late 1942 I assume the latter.

Flying Icecream

23rd Mar 2010, 12:57

Dear Cliffnemo & Regle
How I have enjoyed reading your postings !! Fascinating ! Now I wonder if you could tell me about age limits for pilots during the war ?
My father's regular pilot,with whom he "crewed up" in 1944, was Sqdn/Ldr Ralph Van Den Bok,DFC**.They started out together at 12 OTU in July 1944,flying Wellingtons,then Stirlings with 1657 Conversion Unit.After this,they joined No. 214 (FMS) (BS) Sqdn at RAF Oulton,Norfolk,in order to operate B17 F & G "Flying Fortresses".My father was,at the time,a Flt Sgt WOP/AG. A detailed account of 214 Sqdn's exploits,both as a Bomber unit (Stirlings) and Radio Countermeasures (Fortresses) can be obtained by reading "A Thousand Shall Fall" by Canadian Murray Peden ; in fact,it was Murray who "checked out" Ralph on B17s.
Ralph Van Den Bok was born in London,of Dutch and Australian parents,in about 1905,so was obviously not in the first flush of youth when war broke out.He joined the RAFVR in 1940,and was commissioned as a Pilot Officer (probationary) ; I do not know if,at this stage,he had asked to be a pilot,but I imagine his age would have precluded it ?? He would have been about 34. After training as a WOP/AG,he was posted to No.408 (Goose) Sqdn, RCAF,where he became a " WAG ",as the RCAF called them ! He flew a full tour of 30 ops with them,inluding an attack on the Scharnhorst,for which he was awarded his first DFC (as a F/O),in mid 1942. Two months later,as F/Lt,he won a bar to the DFC after escaping from Belgium----His Hampden was shot down whilst returning from a raid on Saarbrucken,by Hauptmann(later Major) Wilhelm Herget.The CO of 408,W/Cdr Twigg,and the Gunner,were killed,but Ralph and Flt/Lt Gordon Clayton Fisher baled out and were repatriated ( Ralph ,by "Comete"). After these exploits,he was then sent to Hagersville,Ontario,for training as a bomber pilot,and received his wings at at age 38 !!! Promoted acting S/Ldr in March,1945,he received a second bar to the DFC in November of that year.He remained in RAF service into the 1950s,but what the enemy couldn't do, a train-crash did,in 1957,and he lost a leg. But ---was he one of the oldest pilots in Bomber Command ??
My father,incidentally,rated an "above average" gunner,eventually became a F/O,serving with 59 and 220(T) sqdns (Liberators) ,then 51 Sqdn ( Yorks),crashing at Dum Dum(Calcutta) in Sept 1946.He survived (several RAF Padres did not),and retired as Second in Command of Civilian Operators at Strike Command,High Wycombe!!He died suddenly,in 1987,aged only 63,the day before going up to London for a reunion with another (Canadian) gunner from his Fortress crew. There are photos,etc,of Sqn/Ldr Van Den Bok and F/O John Tudor Mills on the 214 Sqdn website. I hope you have found this interesting-- I have grown fond of Ralph Van Den Bok ,although Dad never mentioned him---not once !!

kaputar

23rd Mar 2010, 14:39

ICare9 Many thanks for that and I will dig out what there is and get in touch. I AM showing my age taking about WAG's, what the youngsters on the thread might think I can't imagine! I will also try to dig out my old rear gunner informant's details, I know his children would like to know. He was one of my teachers after the war and we stayed in touch down the years, I regret greatly not asking him questions when I could; Regle's point yet again. kaputar

kaputar

23rd Mar 2010, 14:48

Fredjhh Thanks for that and the also reference which I will try to get hold of. I have wondered when the upward firing cannon attack was 'discovered' by crews and they could be briefed about them beforehand. You say news was brought by recently shot down crews so I imagine the word would have got back home. But it seems to have been a devastating tactic unless the rear gunner spotted it in time.

forget

23rd Mar 2010, 15:17

Very interesting interview with ex-operator of Schrage Musik.

YouTube - Peter Spoden Luftwaffe Night Fighter ace demonstrates Schrage Musik. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gi6UOoKItY)

regle

23rd Mar 2010, 15:57

I watched that demonstration of "Shrage Musik" not Nacht as I have been wrongly calling it. Getting my Heinkels and Handels mixed up. I think that it is another name for "Jazz". I must admit it gave me quite a shocked feeling at what I escaped but I think that it bears out my reliance on constant corkscrewing regardless of discomfort and even pain. It also must have helped the "Scarecrow" story as no combat would be witnessed. What the German says about night visibility is quite true. Unless there was a moon (Peenemunde !) then you were lucky if you saw anything beyond the wingtips. Proof was when there were six hundred bombers concentrated in twenty minutes over Dusseldorf on Nov.3rd.1943 I never saw another aircraft until the hundreds of searchlights over the target illuminated the sky and then I never saw another one the whole way back. Regle

fredjhh

23rd Mar 2010, 23:00

I forgot to add:

AMAZON BOOKS offer

The Other Battle: Luftwaffe Night Aces Versus Bomber Command - Hardcover (Oct 1995) by Peter Hinchliffe
9 used from £5.00 fredjhh
(1)

regle

24th Mar 2010, 00:04

Wow ! How this Forum has taken off recently ! Here goes ; the Halifax was a catastrophe at the beginning as the rudder area was too small and a fatal flat stall was often experienced (once per person, of course !) When the rectangular fins were fitted it was a much better aircraft but suffered in comparison with the Lancaster in it's much lower maximum altitude of about 19,000ft. when fully loaded for a long (Berlin say) trip. This brought it within range of both heavy and light flak (referred to the calibre,not the quantity). It was also very much heavier on the controls and a brute to throw about the sky. The probable reason for this and why the crews loved it was because it was built like the proverbial brick...sorry, my fingers slipped,.. built like a battleship and was heavily armour plated in all the vulnerable places. Probably the biggest reason for it's crew popularity was the lack of the hip high main spar of the Lancaster which was difficult to climb over clothed in the bulky Irving jacket ,flying boots and parachute when the Lanc was on the ground let alone if you were trying to get out from a stricken aircraft, possibly on fire and subject to all the G forces involved. A lot more crews escaped from Halifaxes than Lancs. When the Mk.3 was fitted with the Bristol Herc,16 engines it could equal the Lanc. in altitude and speed and was a great and important weapon in Bomber command's armoury. I was fortunate in flying Lancs at Bomber Command's Flying School as an Instructor to teach pilots who had finished their ops how to be Instructors and then I went on to the Empire Flying School to become a "Tutor" mainly on Lancs. and Mozzies to take very experienced and often very high ranking Officers from many air forces through an extensive three month course where limit flying was one of the exercises. The first time that I flew a Lanc. I knew that it was a beautiful aircraft and I never changed that opinion. I would get to about 12,000ft. then close the throttles, gently pull the stick right back in to my stomach and hold it there and would not touch the rudder pedals. The Lanc would fly straight and level, stall then dive perfectly straight until the airspeed fell off then repeat the process again and again without ever a wing dropping. At about 5,000 feet I would gently push the stick forward opening the throttles bit by bit and we would be flying at normal flying s,peed by 3,500 feet. I swear that it would have hit the ground and leave the perfect plan silhouette of a Lanc had I let it continue. I know that I could have looped a Lanc without harming it but would have been court martialled but was sorely tempted at times.
The least said about Stirlings the better. I thank my lucky stars that I never had to fly them . Practically every aerodrome in Bomber Command would have a Stirling on it's belly in a corner of it's field at some time or other where its long and stringy undercarriage legs had collapsed on it. It's maximum Operational altitude was about 12,000 ft. where it was subject to all the types of flak, bombs dropped rom the Hallies and the Lancs above it and even firing from the German Home Guard and stones thrown by the population. I grant that it was quite useful as a Glider tug but was always a few feet longer when it landed than what it had been taking off.

The Mozzie was way, way ahead of it's time and it's performance, even on one engine was superb BUT, the cockpit was a nightmare , getting in was a physical and mental exercise that left you struggling for breath even up to takeoff, and emergency exit virtually impossible. The stick was offset, the pilot sat with two inches between his Observer who was about four inches behind him and had absolutely no table or even a place on his knees for map reading and even some of the instruments and vital switches, such as the engine fire extinguisher buttons were out of reach of the pilot and had to be pushed by the Observer if he was still alive. Add to that the fact that the Mozzie became a flying brick once you put that huge mudguarded undercarriage down... that wonderful performance and its undoubted versatility had to be there for the crews to love it as they undoubtedly did.

So there you are,;for me "Op"s on a Hallie Mk.3, Joy of flying a large prop a/c The Lanc. and my one solo flight in a Spifire Mk, 9 for fighters...I never flew a Hurricane. Honourable mention; Miles Master, Beaufigter ,Boeing Stearman and D.H.Rapide.!

FlyingIcecream; Where did you think that pseudonym. If you had been in the War I would say that it was you had often been coned but... Just a brief answer to your question of age limits for pilots. You had to be at least eighteen to be considered for taraining but, as far as I know there was no mandatory upper age limit other than the normal one for joining the forces in any capacity. I remember my first American Insructor, an ex Hollywood stunt pilot, telling me "Reg (like all Americans, pronounced Regg), there are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are no old , bold pilots." There is always the exception to prove the rule. What a man your Sqdn. Ldr. Van Den Bok must have been. No wondr that you became fond of him. Have you ever thought of researching his story ?

Icare9

24th Mar 2010, 09:36

So was the glider tug version known as the Long Stirling or the bomber the Short(er) Stirling? Wasn't that the Wellington with its geodesic frame that was supposed to stretch, like a trellis fence?

Didn't the Mossie have a similar bomb load to the B17's and B 24's? That would have been something if the Americans had taken the Mossie for mass production in the same numbers as the Fort and Liberator. Although the films of massed formations would have lost some of their majestic procession across the skies as the cameraman tried to keep up with the Mosquito's. Any truth in the rumour that the Mexicans were planning on building a copy, called the Mesquite?!! Groan!! Hat, coat, byeee!!

regle

24th Mar 2010, 11:27

Yes it was true of the "Wimpy" because of it's Barnes Wallis designed frame. My Stirling remarks were made "tongue in cheek" . It was also true of the Mozzie.; 4 x 500 lb. bombs equalled the Fortress's 2,000lb load but the terrific feat of decimating the power of the Luftwaffe before D.Day more than made up for the difference in performance. That 11 man crew did wonders in shooting down so many of Hitler's fighters. It's influence on the Allies success with the Normandy landings cannot be forgotten. Regle.

Flying Icecream

24th Mar 2010, 14:47

Dear Regle
Thanks for your comments about Sqdn/Ldr Van Den Bok. I have,in fact,spent quite a lot of time researching him,and was only recently able to fill in the "blanks",ie between 1942 and mid-1944, when he had "dropped off the radar" ; Those blanks were filled in for me by his son Adrian,whom I located in Australia,and who sent me all the photos,documentation,etc that I was able to get posted on the 214 Sqdn website --do take a look ; it's easy to access,and you just type in aircraft type (Fortress) and personnel ( Van Den Bok ) .
I see that your opinion of the Stirling is at variance with that of former Flt /Lt Murray Peden,DFC,RCAF,who seems to have positively LOVED them (but not the undercarriage !). He does,of course,maintain that the abysmal altitude figure was entirely due to the Air Ministry insistence on a wing span imposed by the limitation of existing hangar door widths,and is strongly of the opinion that even a relatively small increase in wingspan would have made a tremendous difference in altitude performance. He also praises the aircraft's almost aerobatic handling qualities-----Ah well, "one man's meat", I suppose ! He certainly had a VERY high opinion of the Fortress,one of which he managed to bring home in a badly shot-up state, crashing it into the wreckage of a still bombed-up Lancaster at Woodbridge (and surviving !!).
I couldn't think of a particularly original "user name" when so asked by this site,so I chose the popular nick-name of a certain Naval Air Squadron,with whose Sea Vixen FAW 1 & 2 I was permitted to "mend & bend", in 1965-66.The Squadron badge,or emblem,was a Torch ( like the old road-sign for a school,remember ?) with rather splendid wings ( I will try and blazon it heraldically for you !),which looked just like a Flying Icecream !! Ergo.....

fredjhh

24th Mar 2010, 18:03

The Wooden Wonder

"In 1940 I could at least fly as far as Glasgow in most of my aircraft, but not now! It makes me furious when I see the Mosquito. I turn green and yellow with envy."
-Hermann Göring, Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe, January, 1943

And the USA General:
"You have twin engine bomber, with a crew of two, who can carry 4,000 lbs to Berlin, higher and faster than my B17s, with four engines, a crew of 10 men with the same bomb load? Don't ever let the American public hear of this!"

tow1709

24th Mar 2010, 19:09

Operations continued and on 26th November [1943] I was one of nine aircraft that flew to Harrowbeer to mount a dive bombing operation against the airfield at Martinvas. The only unusual thing that I noted about this operation was that we experienced a lot of heavy AA fire as we prepared to dive. Fortunately nobody was hit and we bombed successfully. However the weather once again intervened on the way back and we were diverted to land at Exeter where we were stuck for another day, returning to Predannack on the 28th. Between then and my next operation on the 3rd December I flew three or four times doing practice bombing, camera gun attacks, and on the 2nd I had a glorious time beating up gun positions along the coast to give the antiaircraft gunners some practice. It was great fun to play at war in this way where there was no chance of the target shooting back!
However serious business was resumed on the 3rd December when the whole wing of four squadrons were taken on a long range sweep down into the Bay of Biscay and back across the Brest peninsular. The idea was to try to tempt the Luftwaffe to come up to attack us. We were to fly at 12,000 feet and we had a top cover of other fighters flying above us at 20,000 feet to try to 'bounce' the opposition. I think the top cover fighters were Spitfires although, since no opposition was encountered, we never saw them at all.

This was the first time I had flown using long range tanks. These were extra petrol tanks containing 45 gallons each, which were slung one under each wing. There were no gauges fitted to tell the pilot how much fuel was left in the drop tanks so the procedure was to take off on main tanks, switch to drop tanks at a given signal from the leader, and then fly for a set period, depending on the throttle settings etc., until the leader gave the signal to switch over to the second tank and later to switch back to main tanks and then jettison the drop tanks. Everything went as planned until, just before we crossed the Southern coast of the Brest peninsular, near Lorient, the leader, Wing Commander Gillam, gave the signal to jettison tanks. What everybody seemed to have forgotten was that there were four squadrons of aircraft, a total of thirty two machines. Sixteen of these were in front of and about five hundred feet above the second sixteen. The result was that the second sixteen, of which I was one, were suddenly subjected to a rain of thirty two large, tumbling, petrol vapour filled, aluminium containers. A few seconds of wild evasion manoeuvres, which nearly became collisions, resulted before my own leader, Squadron Leader Dring, came on the air and blistered the Wingco's ears with his protests. Fortunately the Wingco was a forgiving type and had the grace to apologize.
Things then settled back to normal except for me! My tanks failed to jettison. No matter how hard I yanked at the lever, the tanks stubbornly refused to release. This now meant that I had quite a bit more drag than any of the others and consequently had to open up my throttle more to keep up. I soon realized that, unless I did something, I was going to be short of fuel for the last part of the return flight. I therefore did the only thing I could think of and that was to switch back to the long range tanks and take a chance that I could fly for about five minutes more on each tank before the engine cut. If the engine had cut I would have had to call up and tell the leader as I would then have no doubt lost several thousand feet before the engine picked up again. It was a fairly nerve wracking time listening to the engine note and wondering what would happen if we were suddenly attacked by German aircraft. I did not hold out much hope of being able to dogfight with two drop tanks in position. Luckily the worst did not happen and the engine kept going for the five minutes on each tank. Even so I was very short of fuel by the time we reached Cornwall again. Having by this time radioed the situation to the Wing Commander, he allowed me to break formation and land first. On inspecting the tanks with the Engineering Officer after landing we found that there was only about three gallons left in each tank, about another three minutes flying at the boost and revs that we were using. The cause of the failure to jettison was a bent retraction pin on the starboard tank which stopped the Bowden cable moving. I had, without realizing it, bent the jettison lever about 45 degrees in my efforts to get rid of the tanks. I heard no more of the incident but no doubt some luckless rigger got a dose of 'jankers' for failing to inspect the system properly.
Next day I again flew HF-B, which by this time was considered as 'my' aircraft, on a shipping recce, short range this time, but we sighted nothing. Practice flying in battle formation and practicing 'breaking' when attacked took up the next few flights and my next operation was on the 18th December. This was once again a long range effort but this time acting as fighter escort to a squadron of torpedo carrying Bristol Beaufighters of Coastal Command on a pre-planned shipping strike. The weather was not good and we had difficulty in keeping station on the Beaufighters which were a good bit slower than us since they were carrying torpedoes. They were doing the navigating and all we had to do was to keep station on them. Not as easy as it sounds in squally conditions with heavy rain showers and a low cloud base. We all flew below the cloud and, thinking back, our presence probably made no difference at all. We were there just for moral support! The navigation of the Beau squadron was spot on and we picked up the ships on time. The convoy consisted of five ships: one large merchantman, two destroyers and two E-boats. We had been briefed not to attack but to make dummy runs to confuse the gunners. We made four approaches to the convoy, turning away just as they opened fire, whilst the Beaufighters made their torpedo attack run. The tactics seemed to be successful since nobody was shot down in either formation at the time and two torpedo hits were scored on the large vessel. One of our aircraft, flown by Flying Officer Walley, was hit by flak but managed to get back OK although he had to make a wheels-up landing back at Predannack.

On the 20th December we tried to bomb a 'noball' target near Cherbourg but were unable to attack since the cloud was 10/10 over the area. These targets were ski shaped concrete ramps with associated sheltered buildings. We did not know what they were at the time but it later transpired that they were the launching sites for the V1 weapons or 'Buzz-Bombs' as they became known.
On the 22nd we tried again, this time at full wing strength, with 183 and 164 squadrons bombing and 193 and 266 squadrons acting as fighter escort. As we approached the target area, the cloud cover was almost complete again. However the C.O. put us in echelon port and then started a slow turn to starboard to see if he could pick up the target. He managed to spot what we were aiming for through a small hole in the clouds and tightened up his turn to keep it in sight as he called the 'Arm bombs' and 'diving now' orders. I was flying at number two to the leader of the second four of the second squadron which made me fourteenth of the sixteen aircraft to dive. It also meant that I had to keep on opening up the throttle in order to keep up as I was on the far left hand end of a string of aircraft turning right. By the time that the aircraft in front of me peeled off to dive I was nearly at full throttle and banked steeply to keep in formation. I just managed to glimpse the target through the small hole in the cloud as I peeled over into the dive but had to pull over almost inverted to get round on to the line of the bombing dive. As soon as I was in the dive I realized that I was going much too fast but there was nothing I could do except throttle back in fine pitch and hope that the following pilot would be able to keep clear. As it happened, I need not have worried on that score since the last two in the formation had been unable to keep station had lost sight of the hole in the cloud and given up trying to bomb. I concentrated on lining up with the target, released my bombs and pulled out. By this time I was experienced enough to pull the maximum 'G' I could stand and had learned that this could be increased by putting my feet up on the 'high' rudder pedals, curling up in a ball, and yelling as loudly as possible. All of which tended to push blood up into the head and thus help to counteract the effects of the 'G' force. Even so my vision went immediately and I blacked out almost completely. When my vision returned I was going almost straight up and just had time to see that my airspeed was well over 450mph before I was back into the cloud. Before I had time to settle down to fly on instruments I was back up through the cloud layer and found I was shooting up past the rest of the formation although by now my airspeed was bleeding off rapidly and I quickly rejoined. The trip back was uneventful but I was not sure whether I had been hit by flak or not. The aircraft seemed noisier than usual and I was having to use very slightly more throttle and higher revs to keep station. On landing at Harrowbeer the local ground crew drew my attention to the undersides of both wings. Several rivets had 'popped' at the point where the wing 'cranked' just outside the undercarriage legs. This had allowed the metal skinning to pull away from the rib and left a gap of about a centimetre. This had been enough to cause a slight increase in drag and to change the noise and 'feel' of the aircraft in flight. As far as anybody could tell the only way this could have happened is that I had far exceeded the maximum speed and consequently the maximum 'G' on pullout which had actually bent the wings!
I was considered to be extremely lucky to have survived since everybody was of the opinion that the extra stress should also have caused the tail assembly to break off! After much discussion I was allowed to fly gently back to Predannack so that the aircraft could be repaired by our own ground staff. I remember that the regular fitter on the aircraft concerned seemed more hurt than annoyed that I had so bent his aircraft.
That operation was on December 22nd and I was then lucky enough to be granted leave over Christmas and did not fly again until the 6th January 1944.

raguoC

24th Mar 2010, 21:02

Thanks to Johnfairr I have learned a great deal more about Derek Olver Acting Flying Officer. I feel as though the curtains of the past have been drawn back to give me a true insight into the lives of Derek and his wife Kay. Information that I sought and the knowledge that I am now gradually digesting as I proceed to find out more.

Derek was stationed near Grantham where he instructed on Oxfords. I have an active interest in aircraft however that was a new one to me although in the past I doubtless have encountered one when visiting the likes of Duxford. I shall be more on the look out for one next time I visit a similar establishment.

Now I am putting forward another query, which I trust one of you might be able to help me answer. Does anyone know if the training near Grantham took place at RAF Spitalgate?

If there is anyone else out there who has any recollection of Derek Olver please could they contact me.

fredjhh

24th Mar 2010, 23:16

raguOC
12 SFTS Spitalgate. Probably flying Oxfords.
Formed: <= Oct 1938

Redesignated: 1 Apr 1942 to 12(P) AFU

which disbanded: 8 Feb 1945

Unit was based at:

RAF Spitalgate :: Oct 1938 - 8 Feb 1945

Established as 12 Flying Training School, the School was renamed 12 Service Flying Training School in Sep 1939, then renamed again on 1 Apr 1942 to 12 (Pilots) AFU. This name remained to disbandment on 8 Feb 1945.

I was stationed there when I came home from Germany in 1945. The only unit flying was training Turkish pilots to fly Beauforts, which the UK government was selling to Turkey. The station also housed the Dominie which was the AOCs personal aircraft. 5 Group Headquarters was at St Vincents, a large house nearer to Grantham. fredjhh

Icare9

25th Mar 2010, 17:54

One i Think more suitable for cliff....

Was there a specific tool that, having been recovered from a Lanc crash site, could possibly fit with the description ".... like a bent coat hanger with a screw driver end"? The "bending" may have happened at journey end ... I'm told that Packard engined Lancs had a beautiful comprehensive factory supplied tool kit, but that may have been appropriated by the ground crew.

Does anyone recognise what it might have been, if not part of a tool kit (don't think it was a replacement aerial, as you sometimes see on cars)!!

Thanks!

Edit: It's apparently the gun stoppage tool. I'm sure it could be used on the Vulture design team too! The silver lining was that both the Halifax, Stirling and Manchester were redesigned as 4 engined bombers, taking them into heavy bomber status and fame.

regle

25th Mar 2010, 18:18

I was told that there existed a screwdriver for going round the corners of the brain to put the loose screw back in the designer that only put two engines on the Manchester. Sounds as though it was left in a Lanc by mistake. Regle

raguoC

25th Mar 2010, 20:46

Thank you Fredjhh.

Thanks to this forum, I am gradually putting these pieces of my jigsaw together. Since yesterday, I have realised that I have actually been to this base, which is located on the outskirts of Grantham. I accompanied some children from my school there on special sports day that was arranged by HM Forces. I never considered at the time that I was covering territory that was familiar to my Mother and her first husband. Although I was aware that Derek Olver had died in flight somewhere near Grantham: I did not connect this base, which is currently home to the Territorial Army with the RAF. As a foreigner, my local knowledge of Lincolnshire leaves a lot to be desired. However, with the generous assistance of the contributors to this site, it is improving.

aw ditor

26th Mar 2010, 09:27

Spitalgate was still in use as an RLG for Cranwell well into the 1950s'. My lot' did all their night circuit and bumps and first solos' off a gooseneck flarepath in Piston Provosts. All went well until the good burgers of Grantham turned out the street lighting at midnight somewhat diminishing the visual cues!

kenparry

26th Mar 2010, 12:11

Spitalgate was still being used for some flying as late as 1978 - the Harrier OCU at Wittering used it for training their new pilots in landing and taking off using grass surfaces. The RAF had left Spitalgate by then, I believe, and it was used by the Army.

Blacksheep

26th Mar 2010, 13:26

In the sixties Spitalgate was used for WRAF recruit training. There was a dance on alternate Thursdays, known colloquially amongst Lincolnshire's Bomber Command ground staff as "Knicker-Ripping Night". I've no idea why. The NAAFI was surrounded by RAFP during the whole of the proceedings to prevent any trainees from leaving the premises.

dogle

27th Mar 2010, 22:47

In response to regle's wise prompting to ask our questions whilst they may still be answered, I have a couple -

As a young lad after the war it was quite a thrill for me to have a "ride" in a Fraser-Nash type rear turret (powered but unarmed), but as I recall the response to the 'joystick' control lever was such that, ever since, I have thought it amazing that anyone could successfully engage an attacking aircraft with these. Quite clearly they did from time to time; I know I am asking a lot, but can anyone offer a first hand view as to how crews felt about the effectiveness of the powered turrets, and was there any opinion as to the value of the directly-aimed 0.5s as carried by the B17s?

StbdD

28th Mar 2010, 14:55

I happened across this excellent autobiographic account of WWII RAF training last night. The author served 1943-1947, was a very talented writer, and had a memory that puts most to shame.

home2 (nvquinnell) (http://sites.google.com/site/nvquinnell/home2)

Another good example of getting our seniors and even our not so senior to sit down and write or at least tape this priceless history before it fades away.

rmventuri

28th Mar 2010, 19:43

I found this story interesting because my father was a staff pilot at No 5 B&G school in Dafoe after he finished his tour (coastal command - Turnberry). There are very few pictures of the airbase so was nice to add these to my collection. Like many of the BCATP training schools in Canada it was in the middle of nowhere and the B&G schools were always near a large lake where the practice bombs were dropped. In fact, in recent history, there was a bad drought at Mossbank B&G (Old Wives Lake) revealing a crashed Anson.

The Dafoe website sums it (yes 1980 so probably nothing left today)
To-day, in 1980, there remains but little of what was No. 5 B R G, Dafoe. The buildings, barracks, offices, classrooms, and all except one hangar have been dismantled or moved away. Grass and weeds have asserted their rights. Poles, posts, light standards, and markers are gone. Stillness reigns. Through the process of time, the decay of ages has crumbled the once-active, hustling, bustling station to a few dim scars of roadways and runways. Soon, it will no longer exist not even in the memories of those who knew it.

Dafoe RCAF base - Dafoe Internet Directory, Dafoe,Sask (http://www.quill-lakes.com/dafoe/airbase_history.htm)

rmventuri

28th Mar 2010, 20:07

fredjhh

Curious, did your ops at St. Eval count as full or half? Also how many ops did you fly while at St. Eval?

fredjhh

28th Mar 2010, 22:57

St Eval ops were counted as half. I think ALL Coastal Command ops were considered as half ops on transfer to Bomber Command. I did seven in the three weeks of my attachment. The first few days we spent in the classroom learning ship recognition and estimating speeds and tonnage. I did a flight of one hour and a night landing, and the following day an anti-sub patrol.

Mercury Rising

29th Mar 2010, 07:38

Cliff,on behalf of my uncle who followed a very similar route. What was the exact location of the T I W at Torquay? Thanks.

fredjhh

29th Mar 2010, 09:04

When I joined up, No 1 Aircrew Receiving Wing was at Babbacombe, and No 5 ITW was in Torquay. The Wing was composed of several Squadrons, spread over many Hotels. No 4 Squadron, 5 ITW was at the Toorak Hotel. I think No 3 Squadron was at the Regina Hotel, but I cannot remember the others. There may have been a Squadron at the Palace Hotel.
There was another ITW at PAIGNTON, but i have forgotten the number.
Later, No 1 Aircrew Receiving Wing was move to St John's Wood in London, and our Squadron Leader from 5 ITW became the Wing Commander I/C.
fredjhh..

fredjhh

29th Mar 2010, 09:41

DOGLE

Pilots were required to have some knowledge of every aircrew position so, at OTU, when flying as a passengers I took advantage of flying in a rear turret on two occasions in Whitleys, and I had a postwar flight in a Wellington. Whitleys and Wellingtons used Frazer Nash turrets, operated by two handle-bar controls which rotated the turret and elevated or depressed the guns. A firing trigger was on each hand control.
Halifaxes used Boulton Paul turrets, operated by a single stick control in a diamond shaped cut out panel, with a gun button on top, and I tried this type on a ground gunnery trainer. I found both types fairly easy to manipulate. At Abingdon we had an FN turret fitted with a 12 bore shot gun for clay pigeon shooting. After about 100 rounds the barrel had to be re-welded to the turret, because there was no recoil mechanism fitted to the gun.
.303 ammunition was quite inadequate in air defence. The maximum range was about 400 yards, with an alarming ‘drop’ over that distance. The use of .303 for so long was criminal, as the authorities were well aware of its shortcomings.
My first sight of .5 ammunition was when an American B17 landed at St Eval in December 1942. I was amazed at the size of each round, compared with .303, and the huge quantity of ammunition beside each side gun.
In a book written by Arthur A Durand, “Stalag Luft 111, the secret story,” (ISBN 1-85260-248-1), there is an interesting account of American gunners.
The Commanding Officer of a Gunnery School in the USA joined an investigation team to discover why their graduates were not proving well in battle. The Colonel came to the UK and flew with an experienced B17 crew for a bombing operation on the Ruhr. When the German fighters attacked, the Colonel “cursed aloud when the gunners opened up while the fighters were a good two thousand yards away.” He stared in disbelief as the gunners sprayed their bullets across the sky. The urge to “hose down the enemy” was too strong. The trigger happy gunners deluged the FW190s and, in the process, shot up one another.
Unfortunately the Colonel could not report his findings, as they were shot down!
I remember American crews in POW camp saying they were shot down by their “buddies” in the formation. It was, of course, impossible to fit interruptor or baffle plates on free guns. Looking up from a Prisoner of War camp, as the American formations flew over us, it seemed a suicidal way to go to war, - but they got through.
fredjhh

cliffnemo

29th Mar 2010, 10:56

Mercury Rising

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Lincoln, UK
Age: 53
Posts: 4

Cliff,on behalf of my uncle who followed a very similar route. What was the exact location of the T I W at Torquay? Thanks

Mercury I am sorry but I can't remember an H.Q, although I suppose that there was one. I only remember marching from the railway station to the Windermere Hotel ( c/w warm and cold water)where we remained for six months. I don't think we had any contact with any one else. But ?

Beautiful sea views across Torbay.Classes were held in any available building, anywhere in Torquay. P.T , on wet days was held on the town hall sprung dance floor. Swimming in the harbour or sea. Meals in the hotel basement.

regle

29th Mar 2010, 16:18

Fred, I remember when I was on an S.B.A. (Standard Beam Approach ) course at Wyton on the 9th. of March, 1943, I met the Captain of a B17 or Flying Fortress as we called it then. He had landed there for some reason or other and I remembered we had trained at the same bases in the U.S.A. He had to do an Air Test before leaving and took me as his second Dicky. He allowed me to take-off and land and I remember that I had never experienced such a "heavy on the controls" aircraft in my life. I had never flown anything heavier than a Boston or Mitchell up to then but even when I flew Halifaxes and Lancasters they were much lighter than the B17 on the controls and especially the Lanc. By the way. a few days earlier , I had flown the "Groupie's," Tiger Moth ,(Nearly all Group Captains commanding an R.A.F. Bomber Station had their own Tiger Moth for getting around in ) also for the first time in my life, as I had trained on the much more powerful Stearman. What a contrast ! I was struck by the armament of the Fortress and had never seen such concentrated power before or since in a WW11 Aircraft. As you say, the .303 was a scandal and had the hitting power of a pea shooter when fitted in two and even one gun positions on the Heavy Bombers of the R.A. F. Regle

thegypsy

29th Mar 2010, 19:20

StbD

Three good books about WW11 RAF Training are

Yellow Belly by John Newton Chance

The Devil Take the Hindmost by Denis Peto- Shepherd

What did you do in the war Daddy by Dennis Berry

rmventuri

30th Mar 2010, 02:52

fredjhh,

Thanks for the clarification on the St Eval Ops. I would really like to hear a detailed account of one or more of your anti-sub patrols while at St Eval. From some of your prior posts I know these were long 8 to 11 hr ops flying at low altitude. Curious if the gunners on the Whitley were only responsible to defend from enemy aircraft or did you postion them so they could engage the sub? Was the preference to bomb a sub or postion the Whitley so the gunners had the best shot? An entry in Doug's logbook (rear gunner) he states "anti-sub patrol - two sightings - two attacks - 800 rnds"

rmventuri

Icare9

30th Mar 2010, 08:25

If I remember these ancient aircraft correctly, the Whitley flew with a nose down attitude, so may have been perfect for scanning the sea!. As Reg has already said, the .303 calibre Browning was fairly useless against aircraft, so bullets would have just bounced off a U boat!!

Principal reason would be to force it to dive, and thereby use its slower electric motors and thereby lose contact with any shipping it might be trying to attack. It could also alert RN ships to the position to hopefully make a successful attack, while the merchantmen carried on. Firing might have "encouraged" any sailors that diving was a better option than staying on the surface to fight (sadly when they did, inevitably the RAF came off worst).

fredjhh

30th Mar 2010, 11:30

RMVENTURI
The whole object was to keep U-boats submerged when going out or coming in. Hours they were kept under meant days off their patrols.
Very often they were so short of Diesel fuel they had to be re-fuelled on the surface in day light, making them vulnerable to attacks.
Our Whitleys were still in Bomber Command black, making us very easily seen. Most regular Costal Command units were white or light blue.
A Wellington Squadron at St Eval flew by night using Leigh Lights, and there was a Halifax Strike Force ready to attack any sighted U-boats. USA Liberators patrolled further out in the Atlantic, and there was a Met Flight using Bostons.

For 10 OTU Detachment
The usual sequence of events at St Eval were based on a three day cycle.
On Day One we did air tests and exercises, e.g. Low level bombing runs over a target rock, or Fighter Affiliation with Seafires or Grumman Martlets from St Merryn. Then crews were taken by coach to their billets in hotels at the coast and got to bed early. At an unearthly hour we were wakened and took the coach back to the airfield for breakfast at something like 03-00 hours.
We also handed in our requests for the days rations. Each crew member had a large Thermos flask in which he could have coffee, tea, or milk (hot or cold). The crew had several quart sized Thermos flasks, wide necked, in which we had soup and extra coffee or milk Each crew member had a tin box, about 12”x 10” x 5“, with sandwiches, tins of orange juice, an apple, chocolate and chewing gum.
Then came Briefing in the Ops Room, which was presided over by an RAF S/Ldr and an RN L/Cmdr. The patrols were laid out on a huge wall display of the Bay of Biscay and the Atlantic, south and west of the Southern Irish Coast. The whole area was overlaid with a grid pattern marked with a letter and a number. For example, we would be told we could attack anything in areas G8, H7. In areas C4, D7, H4, we could only attack U-boats on the surface or showing a periscope, not if completely submerged. In other areas we were NOT to attack submarines on the surface. The navigator marked these on his chart. Additional information might be on areas where there was a strong possibility of subs being seen. (Enigma?) The coding machine and the codes for the day were given to the navigators. All pockets had to be emptied and the contents went into sealed bags which were placed in a safe by a Wren Officer. Watches were synchronised with a Naval chronometer. Only the navigator had an RAF issue watch, usually an Omega, Longines or Rolex.
The Wireless operator collected the two pigeons and helped the Gunner and the Bomb Aimer to pick up the rations and take them out to the aircraft.
Our Point of Departure was usually from Bishop’s Rock Lighthouse in the Isles of Scilly, and always in the dark. Spitfires flew over the Lighthouse for a few minutes to keep off any enemy fighters. From Bishop’s Rock the routes fanned out over the Bay of Biscay covering the area down to the Spanish Coast.
It was Wing Commander Peveller’s determination to have 8 to 10 aircraft on patrol every day, no matter what the weather. I remember being guided round to the runway by an airman using a goose necked flare in thick fog. Then lining up on the runway and taking off using the just the gyro compass. “What about fog conditions on return, Sir?”
“We’ll deal with that when you get back!” On the worst day, six Whitleys had to be abandoned or crashed, unable to land, or without fuel to travel further inland.
We carried six 250 lb depth charges fitted with immersion switches set to explode at 30 feet. They had to be dropped from below 50 feet at less than 150 mph, otherwise they broke up on impact. The Connell Box (Mickey Mouse) distributor, spaced the stick out so that a good attack could crush the sub. All bombing was done by the pilot, with no bomb sight, hence the need for practice.
The four Browning guns in the tail turret were for air defence and would only be otherwise used to fire at the Conning tower of a U-boat after an attack. The single Vickers K gun (the Pea Shooter) in the nose turret might be used by the Bomb Aimer in the attack.
The optimum height for searching for subs was 800 feet but in the wintry conditions many operations did not reach this height. All the crew, with the exception of the Navigator, had to keep a constant sea search and the Bomb aimers had Binoculars issued. Crude Polaroid glasses were also available to cut the glare from the sea.
On returning we were given a hot meal and went to bed. The next day was free and we usually went into Newquay. Then the cycle started again as Day One. fredhh

rmventuri

30th Mar 2010, 20:34

Fred, great post! Much appreciated. I remember my Dad describing how they dropped the torpedo from a Hampden - also very low and slow to prevent it from tumbling and/or breaking up from impact. Often took heavy fire as they could not take evasive action while lining up the attack.

Why would you they instruct you NOT to attack a sited U-boat?
For example, we would be told we could attack anything in areas G8, H7. In areas C4, D7, H4, we could only attack U-boats on the surface or showing a periscope, not if completely submerged. In other areas we were NOT to attack submarines on the surface

Rodger

raguoC

30th Mar 2010, 20:35

Does the above mentioned introduction ring any bells with anyone out there? I am still trying to track down someone who might have a recollection of Acting Flying Officer Derek Olver. I am aware that there were approximately 50 men with whom he was in training at this time.

I would appreciate any help that you might be able to offer me that might assist me to find out more about him.

Thank you.

fredjhh

30th Mar 2010, 22:02

RMVENTURI
A sub on the surface might be Allied, perhaps damaged. Recognition was difficult and many whales were depth charged by crews who could just see the shape below the surface. Most attacks were on subs sighted on the surface re-charging batteries. Under the low cloud an aircraft usually spotted the sub too close to attack, and had to turn a full circle, giving the sub time to dive. The rear gunner would fire continuously at the Conning Tower to try to prevent the deck crew to get below. fredjhh

Icare9

30th Mar 2010, 22:05

RaguoC: I assume you already know this:-
Name: OLVER, DEREK REGINALD
Initials: D R
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Flying Officer (Pilot)
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
Age: 30
Date of Death: 15/03/1942
Service No: 101091
Additional information: Son of William Reginald and Grace Lydia Olver; husband of Kathleen Emma Olver, of West Kensington, London.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Sec. P.C. Grave 63.
Cemetery: NORTH SHEEN CEMETERY
He seems a lot older than I expected.
His wife had an address in West Kensington when she returned the Form to the CWGC, yet he is buried at North Sheen. Is that where his parents lived?

There is a website PIPL which might help locate further avenues to explore.
Did he mention a brother?
Wing Commander Peter Olver, DFC, 611 Squadron, Cambridgeshire, Spitfires.
(BoB veteran)

raguoC

30th Mar 2010, 22:23

ICARE9

You have just taken my breath away. I knew some of the details but not all. I need time to take this in. Thank you very much for responding so quickly. Obviously, time is against me as I too have only just realized how old Derek would have been had he survived WW11.

I am amazed that you were able to supply this information so swiftly. You can tell I am a novice.

Your news about Peter has left me non-plussed. I do not recall mention of his name however I have a cousin who might be able to offer some more information in this vein.

Once again, thank you. You guys are definitely providing me with a great deal of help in my quest.

P.S. Late last night I sent an e-mail winging its way to the above mentioned cousin in Australia who is also endeavouring to track down information about the family for the next generations. His mother was Derek's sister.

Icare9

31st Mar 2010, 11:49

RaguoC: I haven't any evidence that Peter was related to Derek, just asking if a brother had been mentioned. Sounds like you'll soon have confirmation either way.
Further research turned up an old thread on another forum:

OLVER, DEREK REGINALD Fg Off 101091
WYATT, JULIUS LEE Sgt R/83471

were flying Oxford II, AP465 or AB641 of 12 SFTS, which collided with each other over Grantham. Both registerd in Grantham. It might actually be 12 FTS, not 12 SFTS, which I think was at Brandon, Canada. I have asked on RAFCommands for any further info.

Name: WYATT, JULIUS LEE
Initials: J L
Nationality: Canadian
Rank: Sergeant (Pilot)
Regiment/Service: Royal Canadian Air Force
Age: 27
Date of Death: 15/03/1942
Service No: R/83471
Additional information: Son of Mr. and Mrs. John Homer Wyatt; husband of Mary Evelyn Wyatt, of Jacksonville, Texas, U.S.A.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Sec. 19. Row A. Grave 19.
Cemetery: GRANTHAM CEMETERY

It's not clear whether they were both in one of the Oxfords, but I would assume that both were in one which lost control and went straight in, and the other made a landing but badly damaged.... Others may know more, now we have a unit identity.

With regard to W/C P Olver, he seems to have had an exciting time, he managed to damage his Hurricane in Nov 1942 by hitting a telegraph pole, (see: 'Fighters over the Desert' by Shores & Ring p.208, confirms that: (13 November, 1942) POs Waite and Campbell of 213 Squadron were shot down by flak, and Sqn. Ldr. Olver hit a telegraph pole with the tail of his aircraft, returning safely however.
but was shot down and captured:
OLVER, P/O. P. 84963 British. 611 & 603 Squadrons. Shot down, captured and made POW June 11th 1943. (earlier reference above presume was "Acting" rank)
He obviously resumed his career in the RAF post war to make Wing Commander. Obviously, if he is not related, then of little actual interest to this thread and my apologies to all.

raguoC

1st Apr 2010, 11:06

Icare9

Thank you once again. Stupidly, I have chosen, during my coffee break, to check in to the forum while I am work. Currently I am sitting here trying to take in all that you have imparted. I am amazed that you have managed to uncover so much information in such a short space of time. I am exceedingly curious as to how you managed to do so.

My home computer was down last night due to a national problem that effected the internet therefore I was unable to access anything other than my e-mail by circumnavigating the usual channels.

I will log in again tonight to read and thoroughly digest the information that you have given me and mine.

Grateful thanks.

Icare9

1st Apr 2010, 13:09

It's not me, but my friend "Google". I maybe know a few ways to make it more efficient, is all. I try to do is help people where I can. Sometimes I dig up something which triggers a lot more information. Thank the internet, not me - and a forum which has international like minded friends!

kookabat

7th Apr 2010, 02:07

Hello all,
It's taken me a while, I'm sorry for that, but I have posted on the Aviation History forum the start of an account by Captain Val St Leon on his experiences converting to the B707 in 1959. Val was not wartime aircrew (though he was a fitter with No 3 Sqn RAAF) so I took Icare9's advice to put it on the other forum.

For those interested, link is here:

Endorsement on the 707 in 1959 - PPRuNe Forums (http://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=5619595)

Will be updated every couple of days until I run out of the words that Val gave me!

Adam

raguoC

13th Apr 2010, 10:31

Icare9
I have been up to my eyes in work for almost a fortnight therefore was unable to follow up on the information that you gave me. However, I am back in the saddle again and ready to continue my research. Further to your mention of Wing Commander Peter Olver: he was not as far as I can tell closely related to Derek Olver. I checked out some of the other branches of the family tree, courtesy of my cousin in Australia but there appears to me no direct male line that might have netted a link i.e. cousin.
Today I am off to London to lend my daughter a hand and can see the opportunity arising to seek out Derek Olver's grave. I am armed with my documentation and Johnfairr's father's account of his memories of RAF service during WW11, which I intend to continue reading on the train.
Have your had any response from the queries that you made on my behalf to the RAF?
Awaiting your response with much gratitude.

Icare9

13th Apr 2010, 14:56

Respects duly paid at North Sheen. He has a nice plot, easy to see on RHS as you go towards the chapel in the middle. His wife Kathleen and son Derek are mentioned on the headstone. It may be possible to locate them?

No further news - only that the other Instructor appeared to have been from Jersey.

regle

13th Apr 2010, 16:56

I see that my latest posting on this ( In reply to Icare9!) is on the "endorsement on the 707 in 1959" thread. Regle

raguoC

14th Apr 2010, 21:17

Icare9
I am grateful for you taking the time to look in at North Sheen. Are you located in or near London? I was there today assisting my daughter but sadly we had insufficient time to visit Derek Olver's grave although we had looked up the location courtesy of the internet the night before.
Derek's widow Kathleen was my mother. She remarried in 1945 and died in 1999, which was three years after my father passed away. My brother, Derek Olver's son lives in Canada with his wife and son, two daughters and their spouses and his grandchildren. It is on their behalf that I am doing this research, which I want to make available to all of Derek Olver's offspring. The fact that I am the one currently living in the U.K. is a strange twist of fate that enables to pursue this goal.
While searching the internet this morning, I discovered "RAF Commands" and will in due course widen my net to include that website too. I dare say that this is where you made your queries on my behalf under another guise for which I am, as previously stated grateful. Thank you yet again.

Icare9

15th Apr 2010, 10:15

Aw shucks! :O
No need for thanks - it's the least I could do, he's just across the river...

Hipper

16th Apr 2010, 10:41

I have a complaint.

About five weeks ago I was a normal lad, going out, loads of mates and so on. Then I decided to have a look at this thread. Now I'd seen this thread years ago but with a title like 'Gaining an RAF Pilot's Brevet' it somehow didn't appeal - I wasn't really sure what a brevet was anyway. However that fateful day, whilst waiting for my mates to come round so we could go out to play, I noticed that the 'Brevet' thread had grown to some eighty pages so I thought it's about time I looked to see what the fuss was about.

Well, here I am, some five weeks and many hours reading later. I don't have any mates now, I hardly go out, and I have spent considerable money on a pile of books on the RAF in WW2, many still waiting to be read (including the best I've seen, Keith Ford's 'Snaith Days'). I've now travelled all over the world, the U.S., Canada, Australia, India, Africa and over Europe. I've flown in Harvards, Hurricanes, Spitfires, Sunderlands, Halifaxes and others. I've been shot at, had prangs and other lucky escapes. I've even been on the Berlin Airlift and flown with Sabena and in a Carvair (actually I have flown in a Carvair in the early sixties from Southend to Holland. Indeed I read around that time that one of the Carvair's had an incident in snowy conditions and there was a photo of it upside down).

I was advised to visit the doctors as it was all getting a bit much and he told me I had an addiction. There was no cure - it would sort itself out in time but I had to continue to feed this addiction until then.

I'M HUNGRY.......

Icare9

16th Apr 2010, 15:17

Hipper: So sorry about your condition, but there is a cure - a daily application of PPRuNe juice!!!

Ah, the Carvair!!! noisy DC4 "jumbos" They used to fly over on approach at Southend, almost demolishing the TV aerials....

Now you've only got to read the "Sunderland" thread in AH&N to be swept back in time all over again.... and another Amazon lot of books!!

Welcome aboard, and fasten seat belt!!

Hipper

16th Apr 2010, 15:48

Oh no, not another thread. I already have links to four other sites to investigate.

Have mercy.

regle

16th Apr 2010, 15:58

So glad that you have found us...this happy breed to paraphrase the Bard ! I , personally, think that Keith Ford's "Snaith days" should be in everyone's library as it contains the detailed and vey easy to read descriptions of life and activity on a Bomber station during the terrible years of 1943 & 44 that one can possibly imagine and answers most of the technical questions that have been put to us from the Drem system to the number of toilet rolls required per station. It is certainly unique in Aviation literature. It is extremely gratifying to read, Hipper, that you have vicariously lived those stirring times and I hope that you will continue to contribute your own experiences for us to enjoy. Don't forget to look at the interesting news going on the "Endorsement on 707" link on Pprune Aviation History and Nostalgia" All the best, Regle
Sorry about this as I have just seen your thread above...Yes, even one more. Per Ardua ad Astra !

tow1709

17th Apr 2010, 11:39

Beautiful weather, I was supposed to do my first solo navex this afternoon, but the Icelandic ash has put paid to that. Never mind, here are some more of Peter Brett's memoirs. TOW

Settling down to Squadron life

It was during this leave [Christmas 1943] that I met two people, one of whom made sure that all my future home leaves were enjoyable, and another who figured in my service life at a later time. The first was an Army Captain who I never knew other than as 'Johnny'. He was the C.O. of an Italian Prisoner of War camp which was situated only about a quarter of a mile from my home on what had been waste ground behind our local 'Gaumont' Cinema in Rayners Lane, in the north west London suburbs. He invited me to dinner at the camp. There were only four officers on the camp so the Officers’ Mess was not large. It was in a Nissen hut exactly the same as those in which all the prisoners were accommodated. The security was extremely lax since none of the prisoners had any desire to escape! They were mostly employed locally doing odd jobs or being 'let-out' to farmers further outside London. Those that remained on camp were the ones whose skills could contribute most to the comfort of the camp staff!

The Officer's Mess was staffed by ex waiters, some of whom had been with large hotels in Italy; there were also three top flight chefs and experienced kitchen staff. The Catering Officer, an elderly, to my eyes at the time, pre-war hotelier had co-opted the services of several English speaking prisoners who had been barmen and had made suitable arrangements with several local pubs and hotels to provide staff in exchange for certain 'perks'. Thus it was that, in the middle of war-rationed Britain I was treated to a superb four-course Italian dinner which included wine and liqueurs!

The evening even included a short concert of operatic arias by ten of the prisoners who had formed a choir. This was the first of many visits I paid to this POW camp and it was still in existence at the end of the war. In fact quite a lot of the prisoners opted to stay in Britain and carry on with their war-time jobs. At least two of them later obtained licences and became pub landlords in their own right!

The other person that I met on this leave was a mysterious Wing Commander "Bill" Brown, DFC and Bar, AFC. I did not find out much about him until a lot later. On this first meeting I only found out that he was flying Spitfires and was attached to a special operations unit - all very 'Hush-Hush'. We met up a few times and, since it appeared that he was based at home and 'living out', he was usually around whenever I obtained leave. During the early part of 1944 his decorations were added to by a DSO and shortly after 'D' Day a bar was added to this. More about him in a later installment!

However, to get back to the story, after a most enjoyable leave I returned to Predannack on January 3rd 1944. I should remark here that, at no time when I was UK-based on operations did I have to travel home on leave or return by public transport. The C.O. always arranged things so that the pilots going on leave would fly an aircraft to a station near their destination which would then be picked up and flown back by a pilot returning from leave. A 'spare' parachute was kept available so that these pilots had something to sit on and most of us kept our helmets and goggles with us when going on leave. I lived at Rayners Lane which was relatively near Northolt [just north of what is now Heathrow] and since most of the chaps wanted to spend their leaves in London - Northolt being the most convenient airfield for London - I never had any difficulty arranging to fly home for leave. The journey from Predannack to Rayners Lane by train would have taken anything from 8 to 12 hours. Flying a Typhoon at about 400mph - I was always in a hurry going home and economy of fuel was not a consideration - the journey took just over the hour!

On returning to the squadron I found that 'my' aircraft 'HF-B' was in for a major service and that I was allocated 'HF-A'. I flew this aircraft to Harrowbeer on the 6th January where we did two dive bombing operations, both against 'Noball' targets - Buzz Bomb launching sites again. On the first one I noted in my log book that it was a 'Wizard show'; slang for a good operation; and also noted that there were many direct hits in the target area. On the second operation in the afternoon there was little flak, it seemed that the site was still under construction and had not yet been fully protected by AA guns. From this operation we returned direct to Predannack.

The next day I again flew aircraft 'A' on two operations. First, a fighter sweep around the Cherbourg area in the morning which produced no result, and a dive bombing operation once again against a 'Noball' target in the afternoon. On this latter show there was a good deal of flak and Flight Sergeant Grant, who was diving just before me, was hit in his starboard leading edge petrol tank whilst in the dive. I saw the burst of flame from the aircraft in front of me in the dive and expected to see an explosion or for the aircraft to disintegrate. However, after the initial burst of flame, nothing further seemed to happen and he pulled out O.K. What had happened was that the tank was nearly empty and the fuel remaining was burnt very quickly and the flames blown out by the speed of the dive. The net result was a fairly large hole in the wing and a noisy and vibrating journey home but fortunately no other damage.

Next day saw me again in aircraft 'A', this time without bomb racks but with long range tanks, carrying out a fighter sweep round south of Lorient and across the Brest peninsular. There was not much doing on this trip, the weather was lousy with a low cloud base. F/O MacLennan had a go at a small ship just before we turned south of Lorient but with no obvious result. As we turned to come in towards Lorient from the south I had a very weird experience. The sea was grey and like glass with no whitecaps. The sky was a uniform grey with absolutely flat low cloud at about 500 feet. As we turned I suddenly realised that there was no horizon at all. I had no sense of orientation and felt as if I were flying inside a completely grey sphere! For a few seconds I panicked and was sure I was going to fly directly into the sea! I jerked back and right on the stick to come out of what I was sure was a spiral dive into the sea. Fortunately the C.O., Squadron Leader Dring, must have seen that something was wrong for he called up on the R.T. He ignored all proper RT procedure and said "Hey! Relax Pete! Formate on the aircraft on your right". I looked right, and there was another Typhoon. Trying to ignore my weird feelings I kicked rudder and slid up beside him. Another few seconds and my sense of orientation returned as I spotted the coastline. I feel that had the C.O. not intervened at that moment, I might surely have dived into the sea. There had not been much time for him to react since, at the low altitude and high speed at which we were flying, a couple of seconds made all the difference.

There were no operations for the next few days and I note that on the 9th I did a cannon test. This merely involved taking off and heading out to sea, checking that there was nothing ahead and then firing the four wing mounted 20mm cannon. Since the Officers Mess at Predannack was an ex-hotel sited on the cliff-top it had previously become a favourite trick to fly very low over the mess and to open up with the cannon just as you passed over the roof. The idea being to wake up all the 'ground types' who were assumed to be snoozing in the armchairs! This was fine as long as you judged the moment of opening fire correctly. Too late and the impact was lost, too early and damage to the roof of the mess was likely. The reason for this was that, when the four cannon were fired the empty shell cases and the connecting links between the rounds were ejected from the undersides of the wings. Since each cannon fired some 180 rounds per minute and each round ejected the cartridge case and a belt link there was a total of some 24 pieces of metal being ejected every second. These metal bits, since they were travelling at over 300mph as they were released, were quite capable of smashing roofing tiles. This had occurred twice in the previous month and consequently the Station Commander had expressly forbidden the firing of cannon within 300 yards of the coastline. This effectively stopped the practice of 'shooting up' the mess and we had to be content with annoying the local fishermen by firing the cannon whilst passing over their boats! We were a most inconsiderate lot at that age!.

However, "pride goeth etc." and a few days later, on January 14th I disgraced myself. We were due to operate from Harrowbeer once again and I flew aircraft 'HF-G' there. On arrival, I completely misjudged the wind speed and floated much too far down the runway. Of course I should have opened up and gone round again, but being cocky I tried to get down, ran out of runway, and finished up with a bent propeller against a pile of rocks just inside the airfield boundary past the end of the runway!

My next flight was being ferried back to Predannack in a Tiger Moth by Flight Sergeant Jack Bridges, whereupon I was grounded for seven days as a punishment. I met Jack again many years after the war, and he remembered the incident. He, by then, highly outranked me! In 1944 he was a Flight Sergeant and I was a Flying Officer – equivalent to an army lieutenant, but after the war he could not settle to civilian life and re-enlisted in the army as a career. He eventually retired as a Brigadier, equivalent to an Air Commodore! The highest rank I attained was Acting Squadron Leader, three ranks lower!

Thinking back now it seems odd that my 'punishment' was seven days being denied the opportunity of being killed, although of course, at the time, I did not take that view!

fredjhh

17th Apr 2010, 17:39

Another great book by Keith Ford is "SWIFT AND SURE," eighty years of the history of 51 Squadron, from its formation to the Nimrod.
Keith was a Sergeant Instrument Mechanic on 51 during the war. Later he took a B.Sc degree, was a Wireless 'HAM,' formed a Mountain Rescue Party and reached a high rank in the Boy Scout movement. He goes into great detail for every topic in his books. Keith was a personal friend and greatly missed. fredjhh

Hipper

18th Apr 2010, 10:37

A film about trainee airmen in Manitoba, 1942.

It's on tonight (Sunday) BBC1 2325 hrs..

For the Moment (1993) (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109823/)

Icare9

18th Apr 2010, 16:44

You haven't got time to watch TV, boy!!
Get on with the Classic threads!!!

Seriously, thanks for the "heads up" now back to those threads!!

BEagle

19th Apr 2010, 15:17

In the sixties Spitalgate was used for WRAF recruit training.

During my year at RAFC Cranwell before going to university, there were only about 6 WRAFs on the entire station...:\ But one day, for some obscure reason, a coach brought a gang of WRAF recruits from Spitalgate to use the swimming pool. Of course we were forbidden to fraternise, being 'officer' cadets whilst the girls were 'airwomen under training'...:rolleyes: Neither group thought this particularly fair, but we were sent off on yet another cross-country run whilst the girls splashed about in the pool.

What the PEd staff had perhaps forgotten was that the western side of the pool area was almost entirely glass. As we trudged back to the changing rooms, the girls spotted us and their pool-time behaviour soon became...most revealing!

And now, back to our scheduled programme!

Wander00

19th Apr 2010, 16:46

Beagle started the thread drift, so - in the mid-sixties there were no WRAF at Cranwell, on the specious grounds that there was no accommodation suitable. However their airships decided that the matter should be investigated further. The Tower was about as far as one could get from the rest of the working station, so there was a meeting to consider introducing WRAF in ATC. A meeting was held to discuss the matter, and all was going well until it was pointed out that there were only two loos in the tower, "officers" and "airmen". "That's OK" said SATCO cheerily, "we'll put a tent outside". "But Squadron Leader", said the Command WRAF Officer, "my girls need a permanent erection!"

I'll get my coat

airborne_artist

19th Apr 2010, 18:23

Wander - you bad man. Now I have to buy a new keyboard. Ever wondered if Pinot Grigiot and IT mix, well they don't :}

Neptunus Rex

19th Apr 2010, 18:28

airborne artist
You've had too much of it - there's only one 't' in Pinot Grigio!

airborne_artist

19th Apr 2010, 18:39

You can never have too much Pinot Griggggioooo :E

kookabat

21st Apr 2010, 00:15

Message for CliffNemo - a neighbour of Bill Hall (150 Sqn navigator in Dick Carrington's crew) wants to get in touch. Send me a PM and I can do the honours...

Adam

cliffnemo

21st Apr 2010, 11:17

Send me a PM and I can do the honours.

Kookabat . SENT. CLIFF.

i will finish my story soon.

P.S Old codgers Google flightradar24.com it is very interesting,

kookabat

21st Apr 2010, 11:45

Got it, thanks. Cliff. I've passed it on to said neighbour, hopefully he will be in touch soon.

Adam

tow1709

25th Apr 2010, 22:36

Early 1944, Peter Brett continues operations with 183 squadron...

After my spell as a 'groundhog' I resumed flying on January 27th flying aircraft 'HF-D' on a long-range low-level fighter sweep across Kerlin-Bastard airfield and back over the Brest peninsular. This proved to be completely unproductive from an operational point of view but highly enjoyable as a long period of low flying in very good weather conditions. I remember seeing a chap leading a horse along a country lane. He waved and gave us the 'V' sign.

Also I remember flying very low over what seemed to be a barracks with a large parade ground where we went down to less than twenty feet across this large flat area. Although we probably were fired at, none of us saw any tracer and we were not attacked by enemy aircraft. All-in-all just a legal excuse to 'beat-up' everything in sight!

Next day in the morning I did an hour's formation leading for newly arrived pilots and in the afternoon a fighter escort job for a dive bombing operation. There did not appear to be any opposition but Flight Sergeant Phillips’ aircraft dived into the sea for no apparent reason on the way back.

We did two operations again on the 29th January. In the morning a fighter sweep across the Brest peninsular during which we attacked Guipavas airfield. My previous sight of this was you may remember on my first operation when we dive-bombed it from 12000 ft. This time it was all very low level. Before we reached Guipavas I had a good shot at a railway engine which I left enveloped in steam. Over Guipavas I shot across the boundary at an angle to the runway heading for some rather uninteresting looking single storey buildings. I gave them a short burst of cannon, hopped over them and found myself flying towards a large hangar with open doors. I gave a long burst of cannon fire into the interior and just managed to pull up over the top of the building. I then had another chance at a gun position just to my left and managed to turn sufficiently to shoot off a few more rounds, silencing the gun. After Guipavas there were only a few more 'targets of opportunity' such as a German lorry and a gun position on the end of a bridge somewhere North of Guipavas.

As we formed up again after crossing the Northern French coast I realised that two aircraft were missing. “Stu” Lovell, my Flight Commander, and Flight Sergeant 'Smitty' Smith, his number 2, were missing. It was not until 1993 that I found out exactly what had happened. Stu's son had researched the incident and had even found an eye-witness! Evidently after our first attack on Guipavas, Stu decided to go round again with his number two, Smitty. On this second attack Stu came in too low, failed to clear the top of the building, took a propeller-shaped chunk out of the roof and crashed just inside the airfield boundary. Smitty either hit his debris or was hit by flak just as he crossed the boundary and crashed well past the airfield. Both of them were killed instantly and they were buried locally with full military honours.

In the afternoon we did another long range trip. This time it was a fighter patrol south of Lorient. This was a 2½ hour trip but with no result. We did not see any other aircraft and no shipping. We did not cross the coast but returned around the Brest peninsular without sighting land. When we were doing shipping recce’s or fighter sweeps off the coast of France it had been found that, if you approached fairly close to the coast on a parallel course, the German coastal batteries would open fire. Not with any intention of trying to hit an aircraft with a large calibre coastal defence gun, but to cause large waterspouts which would force the aircraft to fly high enough to be engaged by the light AA batteries. This tended to be a bit of a game since we never heard of anybody who was actually shot down in these circumstances. However we usually kept far enough out to sea to make it not worth while for the coastal batteries to waste ammunition.

I did not fly the next day but, on the 31st January, I took part in another long range sweep round South of the Brest peninsular and back over Lorient then cross-country to the North coast. Flying Officer 'Dicky' Foster was lost on this operation. He was flying about 60 feet in front of me, to my left, and slightly lower. Just as we crossed the coast I saw flames coming from under the engine. He jettisoned his hood and I saw him start to get rid of his harness. Suddenly the front of the aircraft was enveloped in flames and it dived straight into the ground. There was an enormous explosion and something, presumably the engine, shot off along the ground in a ball of flame and then we were gone. At that height, we normally flew these low level sweeps at only 50 or 60 feet above the ground, there was no chance of baling out if the aircraft was hit badly. If however the damage allowed time to gain some height then the chances of survival were greatly improved. In this case he had no chance to pull up and crashed within seconds of being hit. My log book note for this operation, apart from noting that 'Dicky' was shot down, said 'no joy'. It is obvious that we had not found any worthwhile targets either.
This was my last operation from Predannack as the squadron then left 10 Group and was moved to Tangmere where we joined 11 Group and also became part of 136 Wing, later to become 136 Airfield, and even later to become 123 Wing as part of 84 Group of the 2nd Tactical Air Force (2nd TAF). The first operation from Tangmere in which I took part was yet again a dive bombing attack on a 'No-ball' target. It was obviously a successful operation since I noted that it was 'good bombing'. However the thing that struck me most about this show was that I had never seen so many aircraft in the sky at once! We attacked with two full squadrons, 24 aircraft, and at the same time it seemed that half the American air force was heading the same way as we crossed the channel. We saw Mustangs, Bostons and Fortresses all going the same way at different levels and, as we climbed up to get to our bombing height, at this time we were diving from about 8000 ft to 4000ft, we climbed past some of these other formations. All-in-all it was a most impressive display.

The next day it was 'No-ball' again, but this time very near Cherbourg. The remark in my log book was 'hell of a lot of flak'. Since by this time I was getting somewhat blasé about flak, it must have been very concentrated. Consequently, I believe that this was the show on which I gripped the control column so tightly during the dive and pull-out that I had to concentrate afterwards in order to relax my hand. As we dived it was like going down into, as someone else put it, a hailstorm painted red. I was convinced that nobody could survive that dive and, if it hadn't been that I was leading a four and there were three other blokes behind me, I could easily have chickened out and pulled away. As it was I concentrated so fiercely on the target and gripped the control column so tightly that, as I said, I had to make a real effort, after I had pulled up and away, to release my grip. In spite of the fact that this was, up to then, the most concentrated flak fire that I had seen, nobody was shot down and only three of us suffered minor damage.

Next day I was allocated aircraft HF-E and, from then on I mostly flew this aircraft until I left the squadron at the end of my first tour of operations. My first flight in this aircraft was a cannon test, 10 minutes, and then that night I did a half-hour night flying. Although we practised night flying regularly it was only very occasionally that we flew on operations at night. Then we only took off in the dark of the early morning so that we would arrive over the target at 'first light'.

More soon -TOW

Hipper

26th Apr 2010, 07:04

Bismarck fired her main (38cm calibre) guns to try and ward off the attacks on her in May 1941.

andyl999

26th Apr 2010, 10:15

I have just spoken to Reg on the phone, he wants to let you all know that he is not neglecting you all, but had to go into hospital last week for some checks as it was getting progessively more difficult to walk.

He sounds as though he is being "scanned to death" and is awaiting the results to an MRI scan on his hip to understand what will be needed to correct it.

He has been given his Zimmerframe driving licence and is looking forward to returning home and contributing to the forum again.

If anyone wants to contact him if you just PM me I can release the contact details.

Regards Andy

Jobza Guddun

26th Apr 2010, 11:27

Best wishes to Regle and hope his Zimmer check ride goes OK!

Union Jack

26th Apr 2010, 16:20

Many thanks, Andy, for so kindly keeping us posted, especially since Reg had been conspicuous by his absence of late.

Please pass on best wishes for speedy and meaningful repairs to his undercarriage.:ok:

Jack

PS Presumably it's a four-engined Zimmer!

fredjhh

26th Apr 2010, 17:03

Reg,
Sorry to hear of your troubles and I hope you will soon be in action again.
I have e-mailed you, but I am not sure if you have received my previous e-mails.
Best wishes,
Fred

andyl999

27th Apr 2010, 08:32

Fred, Reg has both hands firmly on his zimmerframe, he has however been eyeing up the PC's in the hospital and trying to figure out how he can bypass the card access system!

I shall pass on all your messages

Andy

kookabat

30th Apr 2010, 09:16

Here's hoping Reg is back on his feet shortly... for now, today's silly question (I'm allowed one a day):

I've been flying a Tiger Moth over the last few months, for the hell of it. It's been great fun, especially trying to remove the grin from my face after soloing it last week!!
I've been led to believe that the normal 'command' seat on a Tiger is the rear cockpit and passengers (or instructors in my case) sit in the front. It's certainly the back seat that I've done all of my flying from.
I've also read in a few places that in wartime the *pupil* was normally in the front...

So my question to any of our wartime pilots who learned to fly in a Tiger Moth - from which seat did you do your basic training, and was that the same seat you soloed the aeroplane from?

Adam

brakedwell

30th Apr 2010, 09:28

So my question to any of our wartime pilots who learned to fly in a Tiger Moth - from which seat did you do your basic training, and was that the same seat you soloed the aeroplane from?

When only one pilot is on board he/she/it must sit in the back cockpit because of the C 0f G limits.

fredjhh

30th Apr 2010, 09:57

Kookabat
Lucky you. I hope to fly in a Tiger Moth before my 90th birthday. My last flight in one was August 1941. Instructors sat in front. Pupils flew dual and solo from the rear cockpit always. fredjhh.

kookabat

30th Apr 2010, 12:40

Thank you fellas, I was pretty certain that CoG had something to do with it, which is why reading somewhere that pupils sat in front was confusing me. Back to those find those sources to see if I was imagining things :}

rmventuri

1st May 2010, 23:06

Anyone have the Theo Boiten book "Nachtjagd War Diaries: An Operational History of the German Night Fighter Force in the West: volume 1, September 1939 - March 1944

Apparently a lot of research to "connect the dots" using the bits and pieces of information available (only 2- 3% of the Luftwaffe records survived the war?). In the sample pages I read online the claims have been cross referenced between German pilot and RAF aircraft serial number for each major bomber command offensive.

Fairly recent book as I understand first print was 2008

tow1709

8th May 2010, 19:52

Today was the Victoire holiday in France where Peter now lives. Peter is one of the very few British members of the Anciens Combattants, an association of former servicemen in France. He was invited, along with a few other local former French servicemen from WW2 to a small ceremony in his local village.

The Mayor of Liernais (pictured here with PB) gave a very nice speech in which she said they were very proud to have a former member of the RAF present, and thanked Peter for his contribution to the liberation of Europe from fascism, which drew a big round of applause. Lots of free drinks in the Town Hall followed, and Peter had a thoroughly nice time.

I don't know what will happen once I press submit. I hope the pic itself will appear. On the preview only the link shows.

http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss299/tow1709/69.jpg?t=1273346950

Peter' story continues...

On the 8th February [1944] I flew four times in one day. This was unusual since normally we would only fly two operations in any one day. This day however the first two flights were air tests of 10 minutes each, followed by two dive bombing operations against 'No-ball' targets. One was on the Cherbourg peninsula and the second at Cap de la Hague. I noted that the first target had 'a bit of flak' with fair bombing whilst the second stated 'no flak, very good show'.

These dive bombing attacks on 'No-ball' targets were by now getting to be routine affairs and the German AA gunners were becoming wary of any formations of aircraft approaching their area. Consequently the flak was gradually becoming heavier and more accurate. We tended to try to confuse the issue as much as possible by varying the methods of attack. One method we found most effective was not to change formation as we approached the target. Obviously the German gunners were aware that, as soon as they saw a formation changing to echelon, we were preparing to dive bomb someone!

Sqn/Ldr Dring, our C.O. came up with an idea for diving on a target from the normal 'Finger Four' formation. He would fly past the target, call 'Ready, Steady, Go' and, on the word 'Go' would do a half roll into a loop to pull out on the bombing dive angle. He would be immediately followed by the rest of his own four in the order 3,4,2. As soon as the leader of the second four saw the C.O.s number 2 start his roll he would follow with his four in the same order.

We practiced this many times before we tried it on operations and we found we could get all eight aircraft in the dive at the same time within six or seven seconds. This meant that the gunners had little chance of concentrating on any one aircraft and just had to rely on putting up a barrage, when it was just pure luck if they hit anyone. The fact that the aircraft were diving closely behind each other did not affect the bombing accuracy since we were all doing the same speed at the same angle of dive and could safely ignore the other aircraft whilst we aimed our bombs. All you had to make sure of then, was that you did not start your pull-out before the chap in front of you since, if you did, he could then have pulled out into you!

We used this tactic on our next operation which was again a 'No-ball' target at St.Omer. There was quite a bit of cloud and, since we did not change formation prior to bombing we obviously caught the defences by surprise and there was very little flak. We tried the same thing on the same target the next day, February 10th, but were unable to bomb since the cloud cover was 10/10ths over the target.
For the next ten days I was engaged in practicing formation leading and doing an exercise called 'Savvy', of which I can now recall nothing! Obviously it was a rather boring job.

On the 21st and 22nd February I took part in two long range shipping recce's. On neither of these did we see any ships and in both cases it was just a long low level flight over the sea. These long low-level flights were very tiring and, as you relaxed on the way back, it was often very difficult to stay alert. The squadron Doc heard about this and gave us a short talk on staying alert. One thing he recommended was to turn up the oxygen supply.

This definitely worked! The only thing he forgot to mention was that, as well as making you feel alert, it also greatly increased your awareness of all the small annoyances which had been numbed by the long flight. The most immediate sensation was to feel as if you were sitting on ball bearings since the dinghy pack, which formed the cushion on which we sat, contained a CO2 bottle for inflation. This bottle formed a slightly harder part to the 'cushion' but was normally unnoticeable. The extra oxygen supply however made all your senses more responsive and every discomfort was greatly exaggerated. Consequently many of the pilots preferred to stay drowsy and dangerous rather than alert and anguished!

On Feb 24th we did an unusual operation in that we provided escort cover for some American Mitchells which were bombing. It was good weather and we sat up above the Mitchells and watched them bombing. There was no opposition and the target was thoroughly plastered.

Three days rest followed and then it was back to dive bombing 'No-ball' targets again. On the 28th Feb it was near Abbeville. This was a routine show with only light flak and nobody was damaged. The only thing of note was that we were nearly attacked by both Spitfires and Thunderbolts. The Typhoon was still at this time not too familiar to most fighter pilots and, unfortunately, from some angles looked remarkably like a Focke Wolf 190. We were therefore very wary of any other formations of friendly aircraft we saw and, if they showed signs of attacking, we would break formation and frantically waggle our wings until the 'friendly' aircraft decided to be just that!
The morning of 29th Feb saw us again on a 'No-ball' target, this time near Londinieres. The weather was lousy with low broken cloud and heavy rain. We managed to bomb well and had very little flak. The German gunners were probably sheltering from the downpour when the alarm was sounded. I was leading the second four on this operation. By now I was getting very used to pulling out of the dive with the maximum tolerable 'G' force and this time, due to the very low cloud, I shot up through the overcast and the second layer, only to find that the rest of the squadron had levelled of between the cloud layers and were not to be seen. I therefore headed for home and luckily the rest of the squadron then appeared through the cloud below and in front of me. I opened up a little in order to catch up only to hear on the R/T. "Bandit six o'clock.- Break", and to see the squadron do a battle breakaway and scatter. I was about to follow suit when I realised that I was the 'Bandit'. I called up "Red Leader this is Red Four. I think I am the reported bandit" and I waggled my wings. The squadron then reformed and my other three joined up on me. My number two was later subjected to a deal of joshing over the fact that he had reported his own leader as an enemy!

In the afternoon I did two short trips which I noted in my log book as 'Observing experimental bombs for F/O Harbutt. I think that in this case Eric Harbutt was testing a new angle of dive indicator but I have no real recollection of the occasion. I remember Eric well however. He was a very likeable and ebullient type who was the life and soul of any party. It was some time before I found out that he was the son of the founder of 'Harbutt's Plasticene'. Harbutts was a household name in the field of childrens’ playthings and general modelling. I found out one evening at a party in the mess, when he had a few too many and tried to give me some shares in the company. Fortunately, or maybe unfortunately, I was more sober and refused them! We kept in touch after the war, but unfortunately he died at the early age of about 35 around about 1957.

The next two months saw major changes, both in the aircraft itself and in a whole new concept of ground attack.

We did very few fighter-escort operations, which, in retrospect, was probably a good thing. The Typhoon was not a good fighter and tended to wallow around at any altitude above 15000 ft. It was however a superb low level ground-attack aircraft being very stable at high speed and, being very heavy, was not unduly disturbed by the buffeting which lighter aircraft experienced when flying very near the ground. When I first flew a Typhoon they weighed around seven tons. As the war progressed and they were modified more and more for their low level ground attack role they became heavier. They finished up as the nearest thing ever to a flying tank with armour plating around the cockpit and more and heavier armament. Fortunately the engine also continued to be modified and, as the weight increased so did the engine power so the performance remained more or less constant.

regle

9th May 2010, 15:51

Just to let you know that I am back home but not exactly running around. They are awaiting results of a biopsy (I nearly put autopsy !) on my hip bone as they have found something and are now trying to find out where it has started. They will take over two weeks. I am far less mobile but am coping... Your comments were heart warming and I appreciate them. C'est la vie and I am the last one to moan ,having had such a wonderful life, Reg.

Molemot

9th May 2010, 16:07

Hang in there, Reg....I am of far lesser experience and flying ability, but I have medical problems too....let's hope we can - all of us!- enjoy our next posting......

TommyOv

10th May 2010, 11:48

Great to have you back on the forum, Reg!

I'm sure I speak for the whole of pprune when I say we're all looking forward to many more of your fine contributions.

All the best!

Icare9

10th May 2010, 13:23

Glad to see you are back at home (or have hacked into the hospital system!)
Andy's email address comes up with "hash invalid" so cannot contact him on that to send Best Wishes that way.... also posted PM to him but that took a while and his previous email address hasn't answered so a bit snookered until you returned!!

Sounds like you've gone solo on your zimmer, just take it easy, your hip and accoutrements must still be very painful, so don't push yourself too hard. One volume of your Memoirs a day will suffice!!! Just joking, post as and when you feel up to it, we here are all doing our bit to wish you soon recovered.

tow1709

16th May 2010, 09:51

Part 24 of Peter's notes...

For the first two weeks in March 1944 it was 'Noball' business as usual interspersed with a fighter patrol at 14000 feet over St. Omer on the 5th and a shipping recco on the 11th. The 'Noball' target on the 4th was the one near Londinières again but this time we scored a direct hit on the bomb storage facility which resulted in a most gigantic explosion. The fighter patrol produced no results at all but the weather clamped down whilst we were out and we were diverted to West Malling on our return.

We had to change gear to a higher speed on the supercharger as we went up through 13000 feet. This always seemed to us to be a highly chancy operation since the supercharger was driven by a long shaft which ran from back to front of the engine on three bearings. The gear change was by means of a dog tooth clutch which went in with a bang! The net result was that the drive shaft had twisted through 180 degrees at the back end before the front end, with the supercharger attached, caught up!

This was demonstrated to us with pride by the engine makers when some of us visited the Napier works at Acton in London.

The test on the shaft consisted of twisting one end through 270 degrees with respect to the other, which was clamped, and then letting it go. It had to return to its original shape within 1/2 degree after five operations. It was obviously a very special piece of steel but there was still that moment of apprehension, when changing gear, that the shaft would fracture and the engine would stop! Fortunately this fighter patrol was one of only about three or four operations on which I had to change gear on the supercharger and I never experienced any trouble.

March saw a major change in 'my' Typhoon. My old HF-E was taken away and I was allocated a modified 'Tiffy' with the new sliding canopy hood. The difference was amazing. Instead of feeling 'boxed in' by the two side doors and the 'lid' one was suddenly practically out in the open. The 'bubble' hood gave unobstructed viewing in all directions, even behind, and the net result was to make you feel much more in control of the situation. Opening the hood prior to landing made the lookout much easier and consequently made it much simpler to put the aircraft down with more exact judgment of height. We soon found that the hood would close by itself at any speed over about 100 mph and all you had to do was release and lock out the pullout knob on the hood winding handle and the hood would roll shut. I think I was only the second or third pilot on the squadron to fly the new hood. The C.O. of course had the first one!

The shipping recce on the 11th was also non-productive but this led to me deliberately missing a target for the first and only time. We were being led on this operation by the Flight Commander of 'A' Flight, a Canadian, who was renowned for bending the rules.

We had strict Standing Orders that we were never to attack any targets of opportunity on the Channel Islands. However, since we had had no luck with shipping he decided that we would attack the airfield on Alderney. Despite being reminded by two or three of us that this was forbidden, he gaily went ahead with a low level bombing run. The airfield was just a grass field on the edge of the cliffs at the south west corner of the island. I recall only one 20mm gun opened up on us, and he was very inaccurate. I was flying number three and as we approached I decided that I would not drop my bombs onto the airfield. I selected the dropping switches but left the arming switches off so that, in effect, I was jettisoning the bombs.

I also made sure that I released the bombs very early. They hit the beach below the cliff and did not explode. No doubt the Germans removed them without too much trouble but I expect they assumed that they were delayed action and perhaps took a lot of unnecessary precautions. I did not mention any of this at the debriefing but just said that I thought that I had released too early and did not see where my bombs impacted. Our leader was reprimanded for disobeying Standing Orders but nothing further happened. As far as I know this was the only time that British aircraft attacked the Channel Islands!

More soon ==TOW