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sycamore
24th Feb 2017, 20:26
Mention of XP357 (Juliet) and XS412 brought back a few memories..I`ve got the panel of the tailboom section with XP357 on it here in my `office`; it was cut out by the Manston fire schoool when she had spent some time at the training school,after another life in SAR yellow.She was also the cab that shed all her `tail-feathers` when we were in formation with another WW in another part of Borneo,but we survived...!
There are a few photos on the `Rotors` forum,(Rotorheads around the world-views from the cockpit),not the videos,page 15/16...some pics won`t open..
XS412 was also flown when I was on 230 at Odiham for a few months,and the last WW I flew on the day I left the Squadron in Feb.`68..
I did also fly a 1h45m I/F mutual with FED once almost 50 yrs ago,but I doubt he`ll remember it as he`s been `fiddling` with a 21 yr old..!!

GlobalNav
24th Feb 2017, 20:54
I pulled out the 21 year old and had a couple of fingers of that; hic!
Nice. I can't afford 21-yr old, so my "two fingers" is measured somewhat differently - vertical, not horizontal and fill to the brim. Do over as necessary until I get it right.

hic indeed!!

Best to you, Danny

p.s. Lick the fingers, no waste..

Fareastdriver
25th Feb 2017, 06:47
I did also fly a 1h45m I/F mutual with FED once almost 50 yrs ago

You sent me off on a Madge trail at Wyton with a Wessex without actually checking that I was qualified on type.

sycamore
25th Feb 2017, 10:39
`Oh ye of little faith`!..I`ll go and cash the cheque you gave me ......

Danny42C
25th Feb 2017, 12:34
All,

Thank you for your kind remarks. Have had double ration of "Baileys" in my coffee to celebrate. As you say, Ian, Slainte ! - or "Long may your lum reek !"

There is something else to celebrate, too: for a long time I used to note here that this, Cliff's magnificent Thread of ours, had (if you except the special cases of "Stickies" and "CapCom") the largest number of Posts and "hits" of any Thread on "Military Aviation" Forum. Then the upstart "F-35 Cancelled" pipped us before the 10,000 Post point, but only in respect of the Posts figure.

At time of writing, we have our noses in front again (if only by 1) on that too - which it is where it belongs IMHO.

Danny.

MPN11
25th Feb 2017, 13:34
Perhaps we coukd mount a counter-attack along the lines of "What if the Westland Whirlwind" (the twin-Peregrine one) hadn't been cancelled"? :)

Was it big enough to take a pair of Merlins? Or would they have weighed it down to the detriment of its other qualities?

Geriaviator
25th Feb 2017, 13:56
For decades aviators have had an uneasy relationship with the met man. It seems they had good reason.
Nobel prize winner Kenneth Arrow, who died earlier this week, served the USAF as a long-range weather forecaster from 1942 to 1946. His analytical mind soon discovered that the forecasts were no better than random guesses, but was rebuffed, being told that the commanding general was well aware that the forecasts were useless. However, Arrow was told, the general required them for planning purposes.

JW411
25th Feb 2017, 16:30
The Salalah ACR 7:

Why did "Sunny Salalah" need an ACR 7 you may wonder? Well, the thing is that Salalah was not always sunny. In fact, from late May until early September the surrounding coastal plain suffered from a local monsoon or "khareef" as the locals called it. I believe this was caused by a very moist southerly airflow coming over the thermal equator and then meeting the relatively cold sea south of the airfield. A further complication was the range of hills which rose up steeply from the coastal plain to a height of about 3,000 feet just a few miles north of the airfield (which hills then formed the plateau which ran north to the airfield at Thumrait - also known as Midway in those days).

The main effect of all of this was a lot of low cloud and drizzle (I don't remember rain being a particular problem but everything used to go green). Some days the general cloudbase might not go much above 200 feet even at 2 o'clock in the afternoon.

The airfield consisted of two sand runways (35/17 and 22/04) about 5,000 feet long. Because of the surrounding terrain, during the khareef the only safe approach possible was to runway 35. Now having a PAR (Precision Approach Radar) would have been a God send but Mrs Windsor could only afford to let us have an ACR 7 (Airfield Control Radar). For those of you who are not familiar with such things, PAR gives precise indications of aircraft position on centre line AND glide path wheras ACR 7 was centre line only and the aircraft had to make up its own glide path. For that reason the minima for the ACR 7 approach was somewhere around 350 - 400 feet.

Now some of you might be way ahead of me here but the next complication was that with a southerly monsoon blowing and runway 35 in use, then there was going to be about a 15 knot tailwind on touchdown so there was no time to bugger about when and if you found the 35 threshold.

The lack of a PAR was more than made up for by the two Air Trafficers at Salalah. (One was called Colin but I am mortified to say that I can't remember the other one's name). They were both brilliant and even with their ancient equipment, I had total faith in them. I never had a missed approach.

Colin and his mate would talk us down to 350 - 400 feet and by then we would usually have come out of the main cloud base over a fairly angry sea with the beach in sight. The trouble was that the airfield would as often as not still be obscured with thin layers of low cloud. There was no approach lighting and I think the runway edge lighting consisted of glim lamps. Not to worry, local ingenuity had risen to the task. A couple of pits had been dug into the sand, one almost at the threshold and another just a few hundred yards short. In each was a 44 gallon drum full of scrap jet fuel etc. When the conditions were particularly bad, both drums would be lit.

So, although we could not see the runway at minima, the boys would keep going with heading changes (advisory, of course) and we would usually be able to see at least the first orange glow if not both of them. We did not usually go into Salalah at night but sometimes "exigencies of the service" made it necessary. One night I finally got the numbers at about 150 feet. Not bad for an old ACR 7 and a couple of consumate professional operators.

Mind you, they had a vested interest in getting us down for we had their mail, food, beer, cigarettes, ammunition, newspapers and, from time to time, "the technical documents" on board. (The latter were black and white adult movies).

MPN11
25th Feb 2017, 18:02
Ha, my old mate Colin ... in the days when you could have a fg off SATCO :)
ISTR I was nearly posted there [or one of the other Arabian sand-holes] until RAF PMC realised I hadn't [yet] done the GCA course :)
Colin was/is indeed a consummate professional, with whom I had the pleasure to work with on several occasions [in more civilised circumstances!]

IIRC, the ACR7 was actually, originally, a ship's navigation radar which 'inverted' for ATC use.

Chugalug2
26th Feb 2017, 07:33
ACR7 wasn't restricted to the far off reaches of Empire, it also constituted the only radar talk down aid at Colerne. Funny how the operator and the kit seemed to combine in one's memory. At Colerne that operator was Mark, though being Polish I suspect that was an anglicised version of his real name. My abiding memory is of making an approach to that hilltop runway in driving rain, with a strong crosswind from the left, low cloud, and the windscreen wipers of the Hastings working at full tilt. Throughout it all is Mark's calm voice chanting off the decreasing ranges and the heights that we should be passing through, whilst also making continuous corrections to our heading so as to keep us on the centreline. Eventually he tells us that we are approaching the breakoff height and to look ahead and continue visually or carryout a Go-around. Invariably though, there to the right are the multi-coloured lights of Colerne glistening through the water festooned windows.

Later he joins us in the Officers Mess Bar. Gone now is the measured tone, now he is the warm friendly Pole again as he greets me with accented enthusiasm, "My Dear, how good to see you safely back again!". Like all his fellow Poles, and their neighbours, he was a great asset to the Royal Air Force, both professionally and culturally.

octavian
26th Feb 2017, 09:26
Reading JW411's recollections of the ACR7 at RAF Salalah (OOSA) brought back memories of my own tour there in 1975. By then 04/22 was a tarmac runway of 6,000' x 100' although 17/35 remained rolled sand. We had two ACR7 radar heads (no expense spared by the MoD) with the displays in separate locations; this was to give redundancy in case the Adoo managed to take out one with their mortars. The approach was still made to 35 although if conditions permitted a low level visual break to downwind left and landing on 22. This was the norm for the larger/heavier types such as the BAC111 during the Khareef, although I do recall doing a number of talkdowns on a Belfast, which was bringing a much needed refueller in. He eventually made it, and I'm pretty sure the landing was on 22. Must look out the photo I took.

The Strikemasters of 1Sqn SOAF were located in Burmail (45 gallon oil drums filled with sand) revetments around the 04 end adjacent to the threshold and when they called "Jets Scrambling" there was a pair of them, and they were going off 04 regardless. That caused some surprise to the occasional RAF crews on final 22 more used to the Air Support Command rules, and also to the ATCEB whose eyes became like saucers and complexions paled as they saw aircraft approaching and taking off from four directions on two runways. Land and hold short was in use there long before the Americans "invented" it.

Happy days. Probably the best airfield tour I had in the RAF.

JW411
26th Feb 2017, 12:10
As something of a coincidence, I had the only genuine engine fire of my long career on take-off from runway 22 at Salalah. The date was 14.04.67 and we had arrived at Salalah from Muharraq via Sharjah with 50-odd troops in Argosy XN820. We were then due to fly back to base at Khormaksar empty.

As we taxied out, Colin called on the radio and said that he had found an Army major who needed to get back to Aden. I arranged for the major to be sent out in a Land Rover and for him to board through the crew nose hatch which allowed us to keep the engines running.

My trusty co-pilot (Brian S) was driving, John LeJ was the flight engineer and DougM (of this parish) was the navigator. At about 60 knots on take-off, John announced a massive torque drop on No.1 so I told Brian to abort. At the same time the fire bell went and John announced that we now had a fire in No.1 so I told him to carry out the engine fire drill which he did in grand style. The aircraft started to fill with smoke so I ordered an evacuation.

I was about to exit through the port para door when I heard the rustle of a newspaper. The Army major was sat there right at the back reading an air mail copy of the Times completely oblivious to everything that was going on around him. I invited him to join me.

The fire had gone out immediately after John had shut the fuel off. Next I had to persuade the firemen not to cover the aeroplane in foam unless they could see actual flames.

The bottom combustion chamber had failed at a weld-joint and that particular can had a fuel drain running through it. Despite the fact that the fire had been dealt with in double-quick time, it had still managed to torch a hole through the double layer cowling.

The next problem came when John discovered that the 2nd Shot fire extinguisher for No.1 engine had actually gone into No.2 engine. This should have been impossible but it transpired that ours was the only unmodified fire bottle in the entire fleet of 56 aircraft!

I would have to say that if can't have your engine fire when parked on the ramp then 60 knots on take-off is a pretty good substitute! Salalah looked after us magnificently that night and we left for Aden the following evening fully repaired.

Danny42C
26th Feb 2017, 13:37
MPN11 (#10260),

Re: the ACR7, I worked one for eighteen months '62-'64 at Linton-on-Ouse. Here is an excerpt from my Post here Page 263 , #5255.

...IIRC, there was nothing out of the ordinary in Tower or Approach (usual CR or CA/DF), or in the local procedures, to frighten the horses. But the Radar was a weird beast of a kind that I'd never seen before, and only vaguely heard about. This was the ACR7C, which I believe I've written about before some time ago, but no matter as the tale is worth retelling.
This came to us in two guises: the 7C (Cossor), which was the mobile version, and the 7D (Decca), which was a fixed installation with the console in the Tower (like the later AR1). Ours was the mobile one, IIRC it was sited somewhere in the "cocked hat" in the middle of the three wartime runways. (I think we only used two of these, Wiki gives 03/21 (2,000 yd) and 10/28 (1400 yd). Placed where it was, it could cover all approaches. (p.262 #5234 has a full description and pictures).
Obviously it had to be mounted in some sort of vehicle. Wiki shows a Commer "Cob" with a 7C on the back, but somehow I can't remember a prime mover at all. I think the console (one 12-in PPI tube) was with its operator in something about the size of a rest caravan. [See Posts #5233 #5234 p.262]
There were no other vehicles, just an external diesel generator to power the radar, and a 40-gallon drum of derv - and I'm quite sure about that as it figures later in my tale.
Of course the ACR7 had no Glide Path, it wasn't a Precision Radar, just a PPI runway approach aid. But these are not to be sneezed at. Both MPN-11/CPN-4 and MPN-1 can be used in this mode, although a PPI approach in the MPN-1 would have to be done from one of the Director positions, as talkdown has no search radar console, only a precision centreline and the "Errormeter", which was operated by the Tracker. I never did one on the MPN-1 (not necessary as it could move round to cover both approaches to the [Strubby] main runway), nor on CPN-4, but at least one on AR-1 (and that was under strange circumstances indeed).
ACR7 had originally been designed for the entirely different purpose of marine estuary control. And as all vessels afloat within 20 miles are more or less on the same plane (pace Union Jack, but even 100 ft between wave crest and trough does not subtend much at 10 miles), they were quite content with a very shallow radar lobe. The PPI only had a range of 20 miles, IIRC, but we never had to do any searching as all our customers were handed to us on a plate by Approach.
Aircraft, on the other hand, have the awkward property of going up and down, so as to square this circle and modify the kit for RAF use, they mounted their aerial so that the mid point of the lobe could be raised from ground level to something like 10º above horizontal, IIRC in about seven stages. So when someone was coming in on a QGH, you were monitoring Approach, knew the height and had a rough idea of his range in the turn. In the hut you had a graph from which you could read off the best elevation "stud" to use - but after the first dozen runs you could guess with fair accuracy on which one of these your man would show best.
In my next Post, I do not need to describe our PPI "Talkdowns" (for those who fancy they have heard the tale before are quite right - below is an edited copy of my Post to ACW418 last July (p.198 #3954 - or it was that serial number yesterday).
"You are of course right - you were in the hot seat, and you know ! IIRC, we used two methods, the "Continous Descent" (with a height check every mile), and the "Step Down". This involved only two (?) steps down, from 1500 ft at 5 miles, to 900 ft; he would hold you at that height till you reached 3 miles, then tell you to descend to whatever MAA was in force. Or something like that, but memory fades. I can well imagine that the first method would be just as hard work for the pilot as hugging a glidepath in GCA, but would have thought the second needed much less brainwork (and was just as safe).
The PPI was impressive. Of course it was a very narrow lobe radar, so you could be really accurate. It was the only gear wth which I've been able to see the runway lights ! And I still recall the sharp-cut little square blip. The story was that it was first designed as an estuary radar, and of course all ships are (for practical purposes) in the same plane. The same thing went into towers as the ACR7D (Teesside Airport had one), but the 7C was a truck".
As I can recall no particular triumphs or disasters directly attributable to my tenure in the ACR7C, I will next time launch out instead onto my Subsidiary career as a Fire Officer.....

Your:
...IIRC, the ACR7 was actually, originally, a ship's navigation radar which 'inverted' for ATC use...
Haven't heard that, but quite possible.

Danny.

MPN11
26th Feb 2017, 18:15
Thank you, Danny42C for that reprise - which I now recall.

I defer to your concept of "Estuary Radar", and I am just glad I remembered something about it having nautical roots! It is vaguely possible I conducted an Approach at Manby using their kit (we were encouraged to liaise with them). IIRC they had 2 consoles, so as with MPN-11 doing multiple talkdowns there was the inevitable argument about where the beam tilt should be (depending on who had the aircraft on shortest final). ;)

Brave guys worked that kit!! Indeed, any SRA requires a degree of mutual faith. I hated doing the occasional SRA using the Stanley AR-1 (Mobile) before retreating to the safety of my office in the corner of the Tower! I did one with a C-130 in really claggy conditions to Stanley's 09 (across the harbour, mind the stubs of the masts on the wreck of the "Lady Elisabeth", and had a strong suspicion he just wanted azimuth info while he ducked below the 'notional glidepath' once safely (relatively) over the harbour!

Danny42C
26th Feb 2017, 20:28
MPN11,

Never having flown either of them, I think I would prefer the "Step Down", as neither the operator nor I would have anything to think about other than keeping me on the line, and as the ranges (concentric circles on the tube) would be accurate, I could safely make the two descents as I was told at (say) 400/500 ft/min, confident that I was completely safe, and would have a few moments each time to settle down before the next stage.

Much less mentally stressful than having to chase a kind of "glide path" all the way down on top of everything else ! Would welcome input here from (dis)satisfied customers who've used the system.

Did we do them on the Link ?

Danny.

Fareastdriver
27th Feb 2017, 10:39
“Step Down” will end up more difficult to fly than a continuous glide path.

3 degrees or 300 ft/mile is the accepted targeted glide path on most approach patterns. This equates to 120 kts; 600ft/min in zero wind. This is easily achievable of most aeroplanes, either fixed wing and helicopter, by a simple known adjustment of power at the start of the descent stage. An experienced pilot will modify that adjustment to cater for headwind/tailwind leading to a smooth unruffled descent to minimums.

Should you start messing about with that you just make life complicated. To do a stepped approach means that you have to descend in excess of the glide path and stop it to get to the next stage and this involves a lot of brain power and throttle bending. Not only that, because even when you go through a height/range absolutely spot on you have no idea of the wind conditions in the next stage whereas if you come down the slope you can read the differing wind effect as you come down and correct for same.

ACR7 is dead and gone with surveillance radar approaches. The nearest equivalent is the VOR/DME approach where the VOR beam bar keeps you on the selected radial/approach track and the DME gives you the distance to the VOR +/- extra to the runway. Some of these are one way only so you can end up with a stonking tailwind.

You have two choices; reduce your speed or increase your rate of descent.

MY personal rule of thumb was that the faster you go down an instrument approach the less time you have to cock it up but with a tailwind this doesn’t work because rates of descent much above 1,200 ft/min becomes difficult to fine control so one has to reduce speed. This brings its own problems as now the aeroplane is more susceptible to atmospheric effects. I have seen and been in aeroplanes where they have banged down full flap at the start of the approach. It would be impossible to do a stepped approach in those circumstances.

It’s all very academic. Nowadays the approach profile is in the Flight Management System so it does it for you and one puts out one’s fag and takes over at 200 ft on finals.

oxenos
27th Feb 2017, 12:22
“Step Down” will end up more difficult to fly than a continuous glide path.

Particularly if you are asymmetric. Every level off would upset both the pitch trim and the rudder trim.
Did a lot of ACR7 approaches, but never remember a step down. All but my basic training was multi engined, - perhaps they did not offer stepdowns to multis for just that reason.

MPN11
27th Feb 2017, 13:03
Whilst I have done squillions of talkdowns, and literally dozens of SRAs, I have never done (nor seen) a step-down. I obviously led a sheltered life :)

Danny42C
27th Feb 2017, 13:16
Fareastdriver and oxenos,

Thanks, chaps - there's the 'gen' from the horse's mouth, seems things not as easy as I'd supposed. YLSNED !

Perhaps it's good that the ACR7 is a thing of the past ....... And yet ... Anything is better than Nothing, when all's said and done.

(an enlightened) Danny.

binbrook
27th Feb 2017, 13:28
Worksop, with a CRDF on the airfield and a manual VDF at Gamston to give cross-bearings, offered a step-down approach from a QGH to AFIR 300ft. Given all the local industrial crud it was needed and worked quite well.

MPN11
27th Feb 2017, 13:58
That sounds stimulating, binbrook ... and a potentially slow recovery rate!

binbrook
27th Feb 2017, 14:31
MPN11

I don't know - recovery rates were beyond the limited ken of a student on the Short Asymmetric Course. If you cocked up the approach the bad weather circuit was interesting too - left to Manton Colliery chimneys, down the railway line to the level crossing, left to Ranby roundabout, and hope to pick up the approach lights.

It really was not a good location for an AFS/FTS.

JW411
27th Feb 2017, 15:32
I have to admit that I can't remember ever doing an ACR 7 approach using the "step down" method (or "dive" and "drive" as my American colleagues used to call it). Whilst it is probably perfectly legal, we were discouraged from such methods about 30 years ago when the CAA encouraged us (in writing) to instead attempt to follow a 3-degree stabilised approach when carrying out a Non-Precision Approach.

I can remember my task master getting me to fly an NDB approach into LGW on my final line check in the DC-10 when I joined Laker after I left the RAF. I can imagine that the noise created during a "dive" and "drive" with a DC-10 would have wakened every tree-hugger in Sussex!

MPN11
27th Feb 2017, 16:54
The consensus is clearly in favour of a stabilised approach, rather than ducking and diving ;)

Danny42C
27th Feb 2017, 18:00
I wonder if anyone with a better memory than mine can help me with a search. At the end of my description here of the 20 Squadron Spitfires being used in '50 and '51 as (mirror-image !) targets for the TA AA gunners at Tonfanau (Towyn), I recall that I wrote a Post (or could it have been a PM ?) about a few moments innocent relaxation we allowed ourselves after a boring afternoon flogging up and down between Barmouth and Aberdovey, and the guns had stopped firing (about 1600).

On the way back to Valley, we diverted to Abersoch on the Lleyn Penindula. In summer, this was a sort of mini-Cowes for the yachting confraternity. While their menfolk were doing their stuff on the ocean wave, their WAGs and daughters topped up their tans on the beaches. We would do (only one) very low-level W-E run along the tideline to "admire the view", as it were. It did not take long for the girls to cotton-on to this, and shortly before 4 pm, the more enterprising ones would co-operate by tracing names and phone numbers in large letters in the wet sand.

These were duly noted on thigh-pads. I believe some contacts were made. But it was a case of "so near and yet so far !". Although we could fly back to Valley in 2-3 minutes, the road journey would take all day (and use a full month's petrol ration). I don't think anything came of it. Then some killjoy found out about it, reported it and it was stopped.

Can I find this on PPRune Search, or Google ? I can not. I haven't dreamt it. So ???

Danny.

Fareastdriver
27th Feb 2017, 18:12
I can't remember you writing about it. Take that as you wish.

Fareastdriver
27th Feb 2017, 19:06
Worksop, with a CRDF on the airfield and a manual VDF at Gamston to give cross-bearings,

I can remember flying from Aberdeen to the Shetland basin oilfield using the Scotston Head NDB near Peterhead for tracking and the Consol at Stavanger for distance checks.

Union Jack
27th Feb 2017, 22:52
Can I find this on PPRune Search, or Google ? I can not. I haven't dreamt it. So ??? - Danny

Para 6 onwards of Post #3458 of http://www.pprune.org/7653773-post3458.html is the nearest thing I can find.....:uhoh:

Jack

Nugget90
28th Feb 2017, 09:01
Chug2's post No 10261 reminded me of my first tour, also on Hastings, at RAF Colerne in the early 1960's when we had to rely upon the ACR7 to guide us home after we had first landed at Lyneham to clear HM Customs following trips overseas. There, we had to accept the lowest priority for Customs clearance if any of the 'shiny' fleets of Comets and Britannias arrived there at the same time, and in consequence all too often found ourselves making the short hop between the two airfields late in the gathering gloom. GEE was not a lot of use beyond the half way point as coverage ran out, although our accomplished navigators could make very good use of it, so if the ACR7 was still being manned at Colerne it was a very welcome aid to enable a safe arrival to be made on the airfield's hill-top runway.

It was not long after I joined my Squadron at Colerne that in September 1963 I flew as co-pilot in Hastings 582 to Middleton St George where our aircraft was to become a static exhibit for an Open Day. I remember the arrival all too clearly, for my Captain was handling the aircraft when we landed and, as happened all too frequently with our four piston-engined tail-wheeled transport aeroplane, it decided to leave the runway and take a short cut to dispersal through the long grass. (For those who never enjoyed flying this Queen of the Skies - yes, it was quite slick in the air for a piston-engined aeroplane - low-speed handling on or near the ground could be a challenge.) Anyway, we speared off towards an orange and white caravan in which its occupants, the ACR7 team, might have imagined they were safe. I shall never forget seeing the doors open left and right with the occupants leaping out and sprinting off in opposite directions, legs going flat out whilst still in the air. Happily, we stopped short of the caravan and the controllers were able to return, probably a little breathless, with muddy feet and just a tad upset!

One other issue regarding ACR7. In later years I flew the RAF VC10s when these were all in the passenger (or passenger/freight) configuration. We were engaged at that time in supporting the return to the UK of Service personnel and their families from Singapore, for which we generally used Changi aerodrome as it existed in the early 1970s. The weather in the late afternoons there tended to be very wet with either vigorous cumulus or thick stratus, both resulting in poor slant-range visibility as observed when making the final approach to land. As part of the withdrawal, the ILS (their only precision approach aid) was one of the first pieces of equipment to be uprooted and decommissioned, leaving us to rely upon the good old ACR7 to see us down. This, I should add, was at the end of a very long day that would have started at Bahrain with a refuelling stop at Gan: the night stop at Bahrain was 26 hours (the worst possible rest period) following a midnight departure from Brize Norton! Thus we were very tired by the time we got to Changi where an approach in poor visibility to be followed by landing on a really very wet runway was far from ideal.

But we couldn't have got in without the ACR7 team, to whom, "Thank you".

Geriaviator
28th Feb 2017, 11:14
On rather less exotic machinery: last week I was privileged to drive a beautifully restored 1942 ex-RAF Bedford QL, the 4x4 three-tonner which played a major transport role for all three Services as it whined down the world's highways, for in the QL's day Britain still owned quite a few of them. As well as the transmission howl it featured all the QL tricks, such as the angry spitting back through the carburettor when cold causing sharp jolts which fired all the occupants to the front, and the vague steering which in fact wasn't bad for its day -- fortunately the speed limit was 20 mph.

Remember the trafficator, the little yellow arm in the side pillar which was occasionally raised by a solenoid to indicate the direction of turn? If it didn't project, a thump on the pillar usually did the trick or one could wind down the window and stick one's hand out. The eight-inch arm would have been lost on the bulky QL, which has instead an 18-inch metal arm painted white and operated by a wire along the back of the passenger seat. To signal left, pull the wire and loop it over the hook provided, while double-declutching down and preparing to haul the non-power steering wheel. Self-cancelling it is not, but a lift of the finger releases the wire and the arm falls with a satisfying clatter. These vintage machines, be they earthbound or airborne, were hard work!

JW411
28th Feb 2017, 12:02
I shall never forget sitting in the back of a Bedford QL as an ATC cadet in 1955 going from Maidstone station to RAF Detling. The noise it made going up Detling hill will be remembered forever.

Danny42C
28th Feb 2017, 12:24
You may find this amusing, though it's not strictly relevant (my explanatory comments in box brackets).

Extract from Page 301, #6008 here:

...One evening, near the end of my time, 3 AFS had finished for the day, night was falling and we had no traffic at Leeming. Teesside came on the phone. They were trying to recover a "puddle-jumper", and not having much success.

Some farmers on North Yorkshire's broad acres are not short of a bob or two, they could get themseves a PPL at Teesside, buy a light aircraft, hangar it in a barn, and they had plenty of their own flat grassland to fly from. Naturally they flew whenever they wanted with no reference to anybody. They were just a small addition to all the Bloggses daily wandering about at all heights and in all directions from the several RAF training Stations in the Vale of York ("Death Valley !" in civil parlance).

It seemed that this particular Farmer Giles had gone down to visit the farm of a friend somewhere near Hull, but had left it a little (well, rather a lot) late starting back. Consequently he'd been overtaken by darkness, which prevented a safe attempt to land on home turf (where of course there was no lighting - nor much else, apart from a home-made windsock). No problem, he'd go on to Teesside (not much further), leave the aircraft there; Mrs Farmer G would come up by road and collect him.

Now how much night flying he'd done (or whether he'd done any - do you need it for a PPL ?), I don't know. Then, predictably, he got lost and was wandering forlornly about somewhere in the skies of North Yorkshire. Teesside's puny radar [ACR7D] was little help: if he had a radio compass he'd no idea how to use it: he was "up the creek without a paddle" and no mistake. I'd always been boasting about this wondrous AR-1 we had - could I possibly assist ? Noblesse oblige !: "Of course", said D., "Never fear, Leeming is here - I'll take him. Leave the line open. I'll see what we can do". (Why do I never learn NOT TO VOLUNTEER).

The first task was to establish contact, it took some time to cajole him to come off their VHF frequency, launch into the unknown and try all the buttons until we got him on 117.9. Now it was up to me, it should be plain sailing. "Approach" got a QTE on CR/DF, he was somewhere to the East. "Talkdown" (humble self [wearing both hats]) looked down the line and there he was, 25 miles East, mooching about helplessly over the North York Moors.

These run up to about 1200 ft AMSL, and not very far from him was Bilsdale TV Mast (another 1000 on top of that). There was broken cloud at 2500. At all costs I must keep him away from that Mast, and get him out of the hills onto the plains ASAP. Shouldn't be difficult - I had him under control (or thought I had). First things first. I got him to set QNH and told him, on pain of death, not to go below 2500 until otherwise advised.

Knowing exactly where Bilsdale was, all I needed to do was to move him North till he was well out of harm's way, then West. But I would tell him to fly North, and he would fly East. Or East, and he would go South. I queried his compass, but was assured that that had been fine so far. So why...?

"Nay, lad", he'd say, "there's cloud in t'way". This was going to be interesting (to put it mildly). Teesside ATC, having offloaded this nightmare onto me, were enjoying it all enormously from their safe standpoint, and offered sympathy.

I thought I might soon need it. There was only one end to this carry-on: the prognosis was not good. A vision was forming in my mind, of a Coroner's Court with me as the star witness at an Inquest. What was his fuel state ? He wasn't quite sure, but anyway "he'd had plenty when he set off ".

Somehow (I ascribe it mainly to the power of prayer !), we got him off the high ground and from then on it was easy. I offset my centre spot onto T/side [you can do this with an AR-1, Teesside is 14mi to the NE], then zoomed in progressively until I could put him on long finals for their 04 (045 ?) - (the scene of my faux-pas some 19 years before). I stepped him down to 1000 ft with ten miles to go to touch down, they took him back onto their ACR-7, and it was in the bag.

It was the custom in those gracious days, for the countryfolk in these parts to reward doctors, vets (and any other professionals) who had done them good service over the year) with a suitable token (always in kind) of their esteem at Christmas. Old Dr. Swanston could have set up an off-licence in his Thirsk surgery with the bottles of Port, Sherry and "Old Sheep Dip", to say nothing of the hams and legs of lamb which were left there.
I waited in pleasant expectation. Not a sausage ! Ah, well...

Goodnight, all.
Danny42C.

Virtue is its own reward ? .........
.......:*

JW411
28th Feb 2017, 17:08
Lovely story Danny. Here is a quick Yorkshire tale. A friend of mine visited Sutton Bank a couple of years back. He bumped into a couple of locals outside the clubhouse.

"I used to do a lot of gliding here 20 years ago so I thought I'd call in and see what has changed" said he.

After a bit of thought.

"Well, we've coot t'grass"!

Danny42C
28th Feb 2017, 18:54
JW411,

ISTR that, after Mess Balls at Leeming, some of our young gentlemen induced a few of our more trusting young ladies to accompany them "to see the Sunrise over Sutton Bank".

Well, I suppose it made a change from the Golden Rivet ! (what else was in view I do not know).

Danny.

BernieC
28th Feb 2017, 19:24
Gentlemen!

While Yorkshire airfields are "on topic" may I ask a question? Though I cannot guarantee my starting facts, alas!

A cousin was posted over here as a member of the Royal Canadian Air Force during WWII. He was a radio or Radar technician and I have a photo of him sitting beside a hatch in the rear fuselage of a Mosquito while working on some component. My recollection (I was about 12 yrs old) is that he was at "Church Fenton" and the question is whether that could be a correct memory and how to discover what units were posted there, probably 1943 and/or 1944.

Feel free to tell me it is a silly question!

But one reason for raising this at such a late stage is that he sent home with his letters an enormous archive of documents (e.g. every bus ticket from his journeys around England), all of which are due to be delivered to me in the near future. So some specific background would be useful.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!

Fareastdriver
28th Feb 2017, 19:50
Church Fenton was a Mosquito night fighter base and OCU. One of the squadrons there was 409 Squadron which was Canadian manned.

Stories here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leeds_East_Airport

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Royal_Air_Force_aircraft_squadrons#Allied_Manned_Squ adrons_.28300.E2.80.93352.29 ("https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Royal_Air_Force_aircraft_squadrons#Allied_Manned_Squ adrons_.28300.E2.80.93352.29"[/URL)

BernieC
1st Mar 2017, 11:57
Fareastdriver

Thank you! It was a foregone conclusion that some veteran of this marvellous thread would know where to look.

I am pleasantly surprised that a memory laid down ca. 1943/44 and never accessed until very recently, should be proved valid (i.e. Church Fenton). Some day, perhaps, biologists will understand just how memories are formed and accessed!

Geriaviator
1st Mar 2017, 15:42
Earlier remarks re semaphore indicators sparked off a further memory: the first flashing indicators were on the 1950 Ford Consul and Zephyr, and the first Zephyr I saw was a green saloon purchased by Sqn Ldr Polson at RAF Khormaksar in 1952. It was the talk of the station and his son Lennie achieved some peer status. Unfortunately it was not enough to raise him to Khormaksar Kids status, he wasn't sufficiently obnoxious. The name is unusual, I don't think he was aircrew or I would have pestered the life out of him, but I wonder if it rings any bells in our crewroom?

MPN11
1st Mar 2017, 16:03
I had 'flashing ears' on my first car in 64 [63?] ... an upright Ford Popular.

Then had an old Hillman Minx with SCREEN WASH ... or more accurately a washing up liquid bottle. I used to open the driver's window and spray water optimistically in the required direction. It vaguely worked. Oh, and a Roberts portable radio on the back window shelf, with some sort of stick-on aerial. That vaguely worked too.

Kids today ... they haven't got a clue!! :)

Fantome
1st Mar 2017, 16:47
Well, I suppose it made a change from the Golden Rivet ! (what else was in view I do not know).

Danny. ah . .. . lacking the breadth and the robustness and the touch of bawdiness in our illustrious chronicler , he of many parts, the 'Golden Rivet' , until researched was a
mystery to me. Rivetting, for want of a better word, in its early nautical
applications. So, to return to the original allusion, the implication would seem to be that back then around Sutton Bank there were a bunch of blokes known to favour 'batting for the other side', and for them to be consorting otherwise was something of an anomoly. But how supremely human and poetic to get your rocks off when witness to a glorious sunrise. (Such frequent events are one of the delights of being alive and cause for great appreciation of eyesight, for the thought of those who are deprived the experience is indeed sad. )

Seeing as how diversions into entirely different aspects, say of someone's war for instance, are acceptable hereabouts, here are two little Second World War anecdotes I heard today from an old mate, for the first time in fact. Which surprised me not a little. His late uncle was in PNG at the height of the first Japanese advances across the Owen Stanleys. He, the uncle, and his mate had had a gutful of one of their officers who was the epitome of an arrogant, ignorant oaf without a shred of concern for his men and lacking any true moral fibre himself. One night, during an advance , with Jap snipers popping off their targets all around, these two aggrieved men took summary justice into their own hands. One felled the officer in question, keeping him face down, while the other plugged him with his rifle to the back of the head. He was buried on the spot, as were all the other dead men, victims of Japanese sharp shooters, hidden in the tree tops. The secret of the two perpetrators stayed with them until shortly before the death of the last to survive into old age. According to his nephew, uncle, not surprisingly, had been thoroughly traumatised by his experiences during the war.

The other story relates to an incident at Buka Passage in the islands to the east of New Guinea. The war was just over. A bunch of Japanese POWs were lined up on the jetty waiting to be taken aboard a ship to take them away to an encampment. An Australian soldier, known well to my informant, saw that the prisoner standing at the end of the queue of prisoners was a hated officer who had personally executed and brutalised many of our captured men earlier in the war. Without hesitation our man fetched a long length of four by two and with a mighty swing hit the Japanese square on the back of the head, sending him flying into the fast flowing current. Screams of outrage continued until the victim was carried out of earshot. Thus, one more savage did not have to face the War Crimes Tribunal.

MPN11
1st Mar 2017, 18:50
Both seem wrong ... but then who are we, who were not there, to judge.

War is a horrible thing.

oxenos
1st Mar 2017, 19:04
Then had an old Hillman Minx with SCREEN WASH ... or more accurately a washing up liquid bottle. I used to open the driver's window and spray water optimistically in the required direction.
I had the same Minx/bottle combination, around '65. As I recall, if used on the motorway, as much water went up my sleeve as on to the windscreen.

Fantome
2nd Mar 2017, 05:37
One car back then I had was a 1948 Hillman with those troublesome cable brakes. The shockers were shot too. The old road between Perth city and Jandakot Airport was sealed but in poor condition with humps and holes all along for miles. The poor old car with its massive front beam axle the lowest portion of the front end would smash into the high spots of the bitumen causing great shocks to the hand clutching the steering wheel. The old Tiger Moth at Jandakot I had a share in , an ex-croppy, was not much better than the Hillman in terms of general condition. One day out at Cunderdin the rudder's lowest rib with the two lugs that caught the tail skid, collapsed. Fortunately the chief engineer of Bob Couper Aviation there , a friendly bloke full of old yarns, name of Ken Weaver, lent me a replacement to get me home.

That Tiger had a wind driven generator. Often the battery needed the generator putting out a few amps to get the radio to work to call the tower. The long taxiway that ran from the more distant hangars was out of sight of the tower , so to get enough charge through the battery to work the radio, I'd run back and forth on the taxiway a few times, a fast taxi with the tale up.

One day when flying past a paddock near the village of Rocky Gully. There was an Auster and a black Tiger parked in that paddock. So curious , I turned around and landed. It was only mid morning but already there were four blokes there sucking on cans of 'black duck soup' (i.e. Swan Lager). One held out a can to me but I politely declined as I wanted to fly on quite a distance that day. One bloke was standing up on the black Tiger with a big green jerry can fuelling her up. The next thing I saw was money change hands for the purchase of the Tiger. A man from Albany bought her. As is. Unregistered. Just on a hand shake.
What did he pay? A whole hundred pounds !

MPN11
2nd Mar 2017, 09:11
I had the same Minx/bottle combination, around '65. As I recall, if used on the motorway, as much water went up my sleeve as on to the windscreen.
Good heavens ... same time-frame! To avoid the splash-back, which I do recall, I think I used to use the quarter light, which pivoted through 120º or so, and stick my hand/bottle device through there. Oooh ... I've found the photo :)

At one stage I was a 2-car a/plt off at Shawbury in '65, as I changed over vehicles. The old Ford Popular was then hired out at 10/0 a night, make your own arrangements if you get stopped by the Police. I bet that back seat had some tales to tell! The Hillman ended up extremely battered at Manby in '67, when one night returning from 't pub in Louth, I managed to skid/spin into the Commandant's front gate-post and severely mangled the port side rear pax door. I parked it against a wall at the back of the Mess in the hope nobody would guess the culprit [and I never heard anything about it!].

Apologies for major off-topic nostalgia :)

.

Danny42C
2nd Mar 2017, 19:54
MPN11 (#10290 and #10295), and oxenos (#10293),

Didn't the early VW 'beetles' have wipers driven by vacuum from the intake manifold - so the harder you put your clog down, the slower the wipers ?

As for Hillman Minxes of that era, I think Rootes sold all their factory rejects to the RAF as "entry level" Staff Cars (they wre renowned for excessive oil consumption - I went through three gallons from Yorkshire to the S. Coast in ours). There was a suspicion that the "Ensign" canvas tilt pick-ups were off-loaded onto us in the same way.

(Any MT Fitters in earshot care to comment ?)

Danny.

Fantome
2nd Mar 2017, 20:09
early Holden cars built in Australia certainly had the windscreen wipers hooked into the intake manifold. Those early FJs were so unstable at speed on a back road, the first thing a cocky would do when he collected from the show room was go round to the produce store and put three bags of cement in the boot.

Fareastdriver
2nd Mar 2017, 20:34
If you are talking about cars from the fifties and sixties you are talking to the right person.

The early VWs had a swing axle rear suspension so that if you invested in expensive tyres that didn’t slide easily the outside wheel in a corner would grip and jack up the whole suspension. As a result the C of G of the car would be so high that it would roll over. There was no fuel gauge. Turn a tap or press a button and a sight glass would show you how much fuel was in the tank. Later models dispensed with this and fitted a reserve tank so that when the engine stopped you had sufficient fuel to find a petrol station. Changing the plugs involved removing the engine.

Everybody had vacuum wipers apart for early post war British cars where it was manual or a wiper box attached to the top of the windscreen. It the late fifties the auxiliary vacuum pump siamesed with the fuel pump on the Ford Zephyr enable the wipers to have some sort of effect in that they overcame the lack of vacuum from the manifold.

One of my squadron cohorts had a Mk2 Zephyr similar to mine. He found that he was putting large amounts of engine oil in it so he went to the main Ford dealer in Bury St. Edmunds. They advised him that he needed a reconditioned engine as it was obviously too worn.

Bleating into his beer he asked me if there was any other way. Out to his car and I lifted the bonnet. On the starboard side of the engine bay was a generous coating of oil. This was from the vacuum/fuel pump combination driven by the camshaft and isolated by an oil seal. The seal had gone so the vaccum pump side was extracting air from the engine sump, including the suspended oil, and spraying it all over the engine compartment.

The seal cost 9d and took fifteen minutes to change.

spekesoftly
2nd Mar 2017, 20:54
Danny (#10296),

One unusual feature of the earlier VW Beetles was that the windscreen washer tank was pressurised by the spare tyre.

Fantome
2nd Mar 2017, 21:50
priceless . .. . and a battery powered hair dryer to defrost the windscreen

Fantome
2nd Mar 2017, 22:03
The late Chris Braund flew with 3 SQN RAAF in N Africa. Later he joined East-West Airlines in Tamworth NSW. He had his own Mustang he bought from disposals at Tocumwal for 300 quid and flew it away. I had the pleasure and the privilege of getting to know him when we both worked for Maslings of Cootamundra. He was the most whimsical person I have ever known. He was well known for his pronounced stammer. He came up on frequency one morning. An anonymous voice said good morning Chris. He came back with H. h. h. how did you know it's m.m.me?

I will put a few Chris stories here instead of in the nostalgia forum as more people come here and they are worth trotting out, I think. (And Danny once said to me DO NOT HOLD BACK we are a very catholic mob here in our diversity.)

I still have one of his old flight plans in the DCA format circa 1066 . where it says means of cancelling SAR , Chris has crossed out radio, crossed out telephone and written there instead SMOKE SIGNAL

he was taxiing Mascot one day in his Eanie- Weanie (east-West airlines ) DC-3. Tower said hold position. Pass behind the Catalina taxiing on your right. As the Cat lumbered by Chris stuck his head out his side window and with the mic in his hand said quietly to the men in the wheelhouse of the Cat - "D.d.d. did you m.m.make it y.y.y. yourselves?"

but probably the Chris yarn that really broke me up more than any other when first I heard it went like this - Captain Robert Crouch of East West Airlines had a big scone like Telly Savalas and just as hairless. One day Chris was sitting up in his Dak waiting for the pax to board. Capt Crouch walked close by , heading out to his aircraft. He looked up at Chris and mimicked " G . . g. good morning Ch Ch Ch Chris" . Chris's reply was "You sh..shut your ef.eff.effing f.f.f face Crouch. Or I'll p.p.pput an egg b.b.b. board stamp on that b.b.b. big sh sh sh shiny p p p pate of yours."

ian16th
3rd Mar 2017, 07:31
Staff cars of the 50's.

I understood that we had Standard Vanguard's as staff cars because MoRAF Lord Tedder made the decision and in return got a directorship with Standard.

Union Jack
3rd Mar 2017, 08:34
Staff cars of the 50s. - Ian

Only £5500 - don't all rush at once!

https://www.gumtree.com/p/other-cars/standard-vanguard-1952-series-1a-in-period-raf-livery/1217875688

Jack

Geriaviator
3rd Mar 2017, 09:38
Fords were most notorious for non-wipers when under load, but the 1950s series Vauxhall Velox and Wyvern even had a knob on the dash for adjusting wiper speed, of course it made no difference. This posed problems for the police who used the Velox and found the wipers stopped when they opened up to chase the baddies.

Regarding oil consumption, and returning to our aviation theme, may I recommend OMD-370 as used in the Bristol Hercules? Being as thick as tar it greatly reduces oil consumption while muffling the bearing rattles as well. This quite extensive roadgoing use may have caused an apparent increase in Hastings oil consumption, though maybe I should not say this lest the Historic Allegations Squad breaks in the door. :uhoh:

ian16th
3rd Mar 2017, 10:16
Staff cars of the 50s. - Ian

Only £5500 - don't all rush at once!

https://www.gumtree.com/p/other-cars...ery/1217875688 (https://www.gumtree.com/p/other-cars/standard-vanguard-1952-series-1a-in-period-raf-livery/1217875688)

JackI'll resist the temptation.

Danny42C
3rd Mar 2017, 14:54
Fareastdriver (#10298),
...If you are talking about cars from the fifties and sixties you are talking to the right person...
In France in the '50s, two geniuses (genii ?) appeared. One was the Citroen body designer who came up with the "DS" * - a car so lovely that it can turn heads even today - but it was too pricey for most people in RAF(G), who had to do with the poor man's version, the Citroen "ID". Same body, but fewer bells 'n whistles, £620 if memory serves. Very popular with our barons on flying pay.

Note * : "DS" = "Dé-ess" = Déesse = "Goddess" (geddit ?)

At the same time a Peugeot suspension designer threw all preconceived ideas out of the fenêtre and started with a clean sheet. The result was the 403 # (£520 if you picked it up in Paris and cut out the German middleman). I bought one, it was the best car of my life. I got the 403J, with the very clever "Coupleur Jaeger" two-pedal transmission (Google: Coupleur Jaeger", select first website <divers403 - Blower>. (Schoolboy French will get you through, don't know what the Google translation would be like).

Note "#": all brightwork (except light rims) stainless steel (in an ordinary family car) !

If there is a Heaven, and if they have cars there, I want my 1950 Bond and my 1960 403J in my garage ! - nothing else,

Danny.

Flash2001
3rd Mar 2017, 16:03
We had a Velox (I think '49) and IIRC it had electric wipers.

After an excellent landing etc...

Wander00
3rd Mar 2017, 18:28
Remember flt cdr on 360 jacking up his Slough built Citroen ID on the drive of his MQ one Saturday - and as the jack went up, only the centre of the car went with it whilst the wheels stayed on the ground. The sills had rusted through

FantomZorbin
4th Mar 2017, 07:04
Aaah, the Standard. I learnt, from a journey across the Pennines, to always carry a few tools* in my briefcase when travelling in a staff car.


* Thank heavens for the Leatherman in my latter years!

Fareastdriver
4th Mar 2017, 09:18
I remember how basic the Standard Eight of the fifties was. Sliding windows, driver-only wiper, no boot lid, luggage through the folding rear seat and a switch instead of an ignition key.

Who would want to nick one?

Fantome
4th Mar 2017, 09:35
only one wiper ? NO ! When Australian National Airlines was confronted with unionism from its pilots just after the war, the MD Ivan Holyman , remained steadfast in refusing to fit wipers to the R/H windscreens of the many DC-3 s that lacked same. Eventually the newly formed pilots federation had a win. But it did not stop the uninformed prejudices of Ivan Holyman upsetting (and amusing) his troops. He addressed his pilots one day, complaining of their lack of respect and their crudeness in filling out maintenance logs. How so SIR? I will not have entries stating a component or an aircraft is U/S . We all knows what U/S really stands for . It is an obscenity.

ian16th
4th Mar 2017, 10:31
Remember flt cdr on 360 jacking up his Slough built Citroen ID on the drive of his MQ one Saturday - and as the jack went up, only the centre of the car went with it whilst the wheels stayed on the ground. The sills had rusted through I understood that the car didn't have a jack, just a prop.

One set the suspension to 'High', placed the prop under the car.
Then set the suspension to 'Low', the car couldn't go down, so the wheel came up.

Danny42C
4th Mar 2017, 12:34
Fareastdriver (#10298),

There were many cases in my time there ('60-'62) of VWs "pole-vaulting over the half-shaft" in the way you describe. It was said that, on average, every member of RAF(G) would make one crash insurance claim during his tour (ie, the good record of those who'd bought new cars to take home was counterbalanced by the bad one of others who'd bought an old 2/h one just to knock about in. The combination of power (the old Opel "Kapitan" was a favourite), wet cobbles, autobahnen with no speed limit, inexperience and cheap alcohol was disastrous. Curiously, the "wrong side of the road" played only a minor part - you had your "prang" when you came home and forgot where you were !

Consequently, comprehensive insurance was scarce and dear. There was no road tax (other than 17/6 [?] being a BFG Registration Fee, and you got a black plastic BFG number plate for that), but that saving was wiped out by the high cost of insurance. I was with General Accident, Fire & Life, and there was a Dutch company (name forgotten) which went bust. Other than that, I can't think of anyone else in the business.
...Changing the plugs involved removing the engine... I believe the record was 6½ minutes !

Danny.

Danny42C
4th Mar 2017, 12:51
Flash2001 (#10307),
...We had a Velox (I think '49)... Good car. It had a little (cheaper) brother, the "Wyvern", same body with only four pots and less power. Would think it too puny to sell in the US.

STOP PRESS,
Peugeot/Citroen have put in a bid to buy Vauxhall ( and Opel ?) from General Motors - much fluttering in the dovecotes !

Danny.

Danny42C
4th Mar 2017, 13:12
Wander00 (#10308) and ian16th (#10312),
...The sills had rusted through... Happened to me on the 403, too, after about 5 years. The side jack point was rusted out, the pillar jack wound up all right - but there was this horrible graunching sound.....
... I understood that the car didn't have a jack, just a prop... True, but the suspension oleo struts lifted the car up and you just put this "prop" under the point on the car, the struts retracted, and voilà....

But how on earth do you get the wheel nuts off with the tyre off the ground ?

Danny.

ian16th
4th Mar 2017, 14:13
But how on earth do you get the wheel nuts off with the tyre off the ground ?
Slacken them off before you tell the suspension to do its tricks.

Danny42C
4th Mar 2017, 15:31
ian16th,

Of course - silly me !

Danny.

MPN11
4th Mar 2017, 16:04
Jacking points? My Ford Popular had them in the rear passenger compartment... lift the carpet, and there was a little metal cover for the hole for the jack. Never used for that purpose, but quite handy for disposing of used rubber products.

TMI, sorry :(

Wander00
4th Mar 2017, 16:07
Forgive the awry technicalities, outcome the same and it was about 50 years ago, feels like 100. Sadly the guy was not at the 360 Badge presentation at the RAF Club on Tuesday. His widow's claim is that he had radiation sickness from flying, deliberately and courageously, through the cloud post a nuclear explosion.

MPN11
4th Mar 2017, 16:08
Forgive the awry technicalities, outcome the same and it was about 50 years ago, feels like 100. Sadly the guy was not at the 360 Badge presentation at the RAF Club on Tuesday. His widow's claim is that he had radiation sickness from flying, deliberately and courageously, through the cloud post a nuclear explosion.
I wonder to what extent my BIL's cancers were caused by 'sniffing' on 27 Sqn.

Geriaviator
4th Mar 2017, 16:16
The Chevvy Corvair was the American cousin of Danny's pole-vaulting VW and its swing-axle tuck-under antics inspired Ralph Nader to write Unsafe at any Speed -- a book which changed automotive design and brought a revolution in safety from 1962. However, Chevrolet did get it right with its super six-cylinder, alloy crankcase, air-cooled engine which I have seen in a couple of light aircraft.

Another swing-axle contender was the Tatra T87, a Czech streamlined saloon far ahead of its time with V8 engine taking it to 100mph. Many were seized when Germany invaded Czechoslovakia and were highly prized by senior officers. But the combination of big V8 behind the swing rear axle was lethal, and the Tatra handling killed so many officers that it became known as the Czechs' secret weapon. After several Luftwaffe pilots wrapped themselves round a tree, reputedly the German officers were forbidden to drive it.
https://s12.postimg.org/mdl0fkztp/tatra.jpg

BernieC
4th Mar 2017, 18:49
A motoring anecdote with an aviation connection (slight):

My first car was an Austin A35 van, handed on by a Fleet Air Arm friend when he was posted to Singapore in 1959/60. Neat and nippy, but a rust-bucket as I discovered when I tried to fit inertia reel seat belt mechanisms to its floorpan a year or two later. But its most remarkable feature I discovered only when dealing with a puncture on a very rural mountain road in Germany somewhere -- the sidearm of the screw jack had been installed upside-down by the manufacturer (Smith's Industries). So when inserted into the retaining loop below the door sill it simply tore its way out as the weight of the car came onto it.

OffshoreSLF
4th Mar 2017, 20:45
Jacking points? My Ford Popular had them in the rear passenger compartment... lift the carpet, and there was a little metal cover for the hole for the jack. Never used for that purpose, but quite handy for disposing of used rubber products.

TMI, sorry :(

My first car was a 1954 Austin Somerset which had a similar arrangement. Lift the front carpet, remove a large rubber grommet then poke the jack through the hole and insert into the chassis cross member.

That car taught me a lot - Every 3000 miles, change the oil and the cylinder head gasket!

It was fun though. Column gear change, umbrella hand brake under the dash and no seat belts, which meant you could get 3 people in the front, and another 3 in the back!

ian16th
5th Mar 2017, 07:02
The swing axle and its tuck-under trick was common with several cars that were popular in Cyprus in the early 60's.

The very severely cambered Cypriot roads aggravated the problem.

On Sunday mornings, after the single guys had been to Hero Square, the road between Limmasol and Akrotiri had a selection of rolled Simca 1000's, Renault Dauphine's, VW's and Triumph Herald's.

Fantome
5th Mar 2017, 07:56
the road between Limmasol and Akrotiri had a selection of rolled Simca 1000's, Renault Dauphine's, VW's and Triumph Herald's.


Technical question - having little clue about car manufacture of that era,

were they rolled or were they stamped?

Some car - A SIMCA ! There is a paddock full of them just south of Hobart.

Geriaviator
5th Mar 2017, 11:44
My brother yesterday reminded me of the salt tablets taken by all RAF families on overseas postings, together with tins of powdered fizzy drink which may have contained other minerals. As we recall, adults in Aden took two or three tablets daily, we kids took one each. They contained probably 5g salt per tablet in today's money. Sixty-five years later we are warned that salt plays havoc with our arteries and we wondered if salt tablets are still issued to Our Boys abroad?

MPN11
5th Mar 2017, 13:17
I remember the little baskets of tablets on the dining tables in the Mess in Singapore. Were they salt, or malaria, or both? I certainly don't remember going to SMC for them.

JW411
5th Mar 2017, 15:00
The salt tablets in Aden went straight through the system like bullets!

FantomZorbin
5th Mar 2017, 15:19
There was a chap at Luqa who collapsed at Happy Hour (wait for it ...) having just arrived from an energetic hour or so in the squash court. He was dragged into the cloakroom where the doc administered a pint glass of water containing the content of a salt cellar, after a few minutes the patient was as right as rain and carried on with his pint!

Chugalug2
5th Mar 2017, 16:37
FZ:-
He was dragged into the cloakroom where the doc administered a pint glass of water containing the content of a salt cellar

I am pleased to note that the proprieties were fully observed. The very thought that a pint of water, with or without any salt added, should have been administered in the bar is unthinkable. Thank goodness that the MO had the presence of mind to remove him so promptly from the scene. Clearly his training shone through at that very critical moment! :ok:

ricardian
5th Mar 2017, 16:43
Sharjah 1963-64, the tables in the airman's mess had dishes of salt tablets, vitamin tablets and paludrin tablets. We also got a monthly issue of a couple of bottles of cheap concentrated fruit squash. No fresh water in the ablutions, showers & handbasins were all salt water and needed "Vel" soap to get a lather.
The only difference between winter and summer dress was that in winter we wore socks, in summer we didn't. I still have my National Health style sunglasses

Danny42C
5th Mar 2017, 17:04
BernieC (#10322),
...but a rust-bucket as I discovered...
Weren't they all in that era ! The Tin Beetle ruled supreme!
... the sidearm of the screw jack had been installed upside-down by the manufacturer...
Again, par for the Course ! The British cars of the period were a laughing stock (except to us, who had to be humbly grateful for anything.

Danny.

Danny42C
5th Mar 2017, 17:17
OffshoreSLF (#10323)
...which meant you could get 3 people in the front...
Ah, those bench front seats, and the possibilities they opened ! (and a column gearshift made an unobstruced floor) .... Memories, memories !

Danny.

Wander00
5th Mar 2017, 17:56
Like my Dad's Ford Consul - hated the plastic covering on the seat but very easily wiped clean

Danny42C
5th Mar 2017, 18:04
Geriaviator (#10326), MPN11 (#10327), JW411 (#10328), Fantom Zorbin (#10329), Chugalug (#10330),and ricardian (10331),

You drink a lot of plain water, what sweats out is salt (4 [?] % - a distant memory of our acquatic origins). That has to be replaced to maintain health.

So the salt tablets, in hot weather they were put out in the Messes in bowls, you were supposed to suck one a day, but I can't remember any checks on you. They were off-white, about the size of an "Ovaltine" tablet, I think.

In India, we had small yellow "Mepacrine" tablets as an anti-malaria prophylactic. One per day, no checks (turned you yellow, too !)

JW411, don't remember any laxative effect. But in India then anything you ate or drank was apt to send you off with the "Runs" !

ricardian, I still have my "Spectacles Anti-Glare" in the blue case. Seems I unaccountably failed to hand them in. Naughty, naughty ! :=

Danny.

MPN11
5th Mar 2017, 18:11
ricardian, I still have my "Spectacles Anti-Glare" in the blue case. Seems I unaccountably failed to hand them in. Naughty, naughty ! :=

Danny.
Probably the ultimate in "Cool Shades" these days :)

esa-aardvark
6th Mar 2017, 02:02
Packing to move, came across the log book of my Uncle Alastair.
He went solo on 16/12/1948 in G-AISR at 6.45 flying hours.
His main instructor was a Mr R Whitehead. Took place at
Southampton. I think my father was on the same course, but
did not find his logbook yet.
John

FantomZorbin
6th Mar 2017, 07:06
Chugalug2 (#10330) :D:D

oxenos
6th Mar 2017, 11:33
Bought my Hillman Minx on arrival at Kinloss for the Shackleton course in 1964. FGS 947 - funny how things like that stick in the memory. Many trips from Kinloss to Bath, where my parents lived, with cats , kids etc. It was an epic journey - the only good bit of road was the Preston by-pass. most of the rest was not even dual carriage way. Top speed of 57 m.p.h indicated, probably a lot less true. Then got posted to St. Mawgan, so a slightly shorter trip to Bath (about 240 miles), but again virtually no dual carriageway, so a slow trip.
Sold it in 67 when I was posted to Changi and bought a Standard Vanguard on arrival. Bought it from the M.T. officer who was going home - suspected he knew of a hidden stash of spares around the back of the M.T. workshops. In fact it gave very little trouble, and when I left in 69 I sold it for the same price as I paid for it. To a newly arrived M.T. officer. Confirmed my suspicions about the hidden stash.
Went to Singapore on detachment in '71 and saw my old Vanguard on the base at Tengah. Owned by, surprise, the M.T. sergeant.

On the subject of salt tablets, when I did the Jungle Survival course on arrival in Changi, we were told:- " put a salt tablet in your mouth. If it tastes horrible, spit it out - you don't need it. If you can't taste it, keep sucking it - you do need it."
We were also told that Mycota powder, which we were given to stave off athlete's foot, was good for sprinkling on the cords supporting your parachute canopy hammock, as it deterred the ants from travelling along them. But " whatever you do, don't put it on your feet."
Thread drift, what thread drift? The nice thing about this thread is that it is indeed like sitting around a crew room when the weather is sh*te, swopping irrelevant yarns

Geriaviator
6th Mar 2017, 16:10
Interesting that so many refer to sucking their salt tablets, we were told to gulp them down with a glass of water. Oxenos's Mycota anti-ant powder was another revelation, in India and some Khormaksar accommodation with thatched roof it was advisable to stand each charpoy leg in a Players 50-ciggy tin filled with paraffin. One could thereby slumber ant-free, albeit in a haze of hydrocarbon fumes.

ricardian
6th Mar 2017, 21:19
Interesting that so many refer to sucking their salt tablets, we were told to gulp them down with a glass of water. Oxenos's Mycota anti-ant powder was another revelation, in India and some Khormaksar accommodation with thatched roof it was advisable to stand each charpoy leg in a Players 50-ciggy tin filled with paraffin. One could thereby slumber ant-free, albeit in a haze of hydrocarbon fumes.
At Sharjah 1963-64 the bedbug removal technique was to put your bedframe out on the bondu, squirt a bit of lighter fluid into all the crevices and apply a naked flame

goudie
7th Mar 2017, 06:46
At Sharjah, as well as the salt tablets on the dining tables ISTR the eggs tasted awful. Apparently they were injected with iodine to keep them 'fresh'!

Danny42C
7th Mar 2017, 10:56
goudie,

In India, we all slept on "charpoys" - a roughly hewn wooden frame with (loose) mortice joints was held together with a web of coconut fibre string. You cut the string off, knocked the joints apart and dunked them in 100 octane or kerosene, then assemble and re-string. Tension will hold the joints together, but it'll wobble a bit.

That got rid of the resident livestock (which nested in the joints), but the bedbugs always came back. We just had to learn to love them. When you squash them between finger and thumb, you get a nice "almond" smell and a drop of your blood.

Don't like the iodine idea (never heard of that one, sounds labour-intensive). Perhaps if you hard-boiled and curried them ......... ?

Danny.

Danny42C
7th Mar 2017, 11:33
Just like to mention that, over on "Private Flying", "Elderly Gent" has a fund of good stories (have a look after you've checked [don't we all ?] on that Naughty Girl Tracey).

Tried to poach him onto here (#5), but he ain't coming !

Danny.

Reader123
8th Mar 2017, 09:31
This seems an apt point to share this item of news. Canadian town sorry for pink tap water - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39201090)

FantomZorbin
8th Mar 2017, 10:28
On Malta I remember fruit being a very strange colour when dunked in potassium permanganate so that our very young children didn't catch anything nasty ... we needn't have worried as they were happily eating prickly pears prepared for them by the rubbish collector!!!

Danny42C
8th Mar 2017, 15:21
Reader123 and FantomZorbin,

In India, the "char" (chai)-wallahs used Potassium Permanganate to sterilise the wasng-up water ("pinky-pani").
...eating prickly pears prepared for them by the rubbish collector!!!...
I don't suppose they came to any harm.

Danny.

eko4me
8th Mar 2017, 15:31
Quote:
...eating prickly pears prepared for them by the rubbish collector!!!...
I don't suppose they came to any harm.

Danny. And I would hazard a guess that they don't have any allergies either.

FantomZorbin
10th Mar 2017, 07:58
eko4me
You're right there and, in fairness, they are definitely NOT allergic to hard work!!


Danny
I've just read a most concerning post on the Manning thread (#2) ie. tea bars aren't allowed now! How dare 'they' darken our crewroom doors with their twisted jobsworths ... where else can I get my Standard NATO fix?! Hrrumph!

Blacksheep
10th Mar 2017, 12:15
If tea bars aren't allowed now, I guess the Xmas bars must have gone a long time ago. :(

Danny42C
10th Mar 2017, 12:33
FantomZorbin ahd Blacksheep,

Is Nothing Sacred Any More ?

Danny.

MPN11
10th Mar 2017, 12:43
Thank Heaven our virtual crewroom is immune from such interference!

<puts kettle on>

Wander00
10th Mar 2017, 13:18
Thanks MPN, mine is black, no sugar, thanks

MPN11
10th Mar 2017, 13:54
Thanks MPN, mine is black, no sugar, thanks
Splash of Calvados in that? It is a bit cool, and after noon :)

ian16th
10th Mar 2017, 14:36
No Tea Swindle!

So what happens on detachments?

MPN11
10th Mar 2017, 14:47
What happens on detachments stays on detachments?

Blacksheep
11th Mar 2017, 12:18
http://pin.it/2GHz47H

Danny42C
11th Mar 2017, 14:29
Sorry, Blacksheep - didn't catch it before the dreaded red cross supplanted it. .... Is it possible to put it up again, or tell me what it was all about ?

Danny.

Chugalug2
11th Mar 2017, 14:47
Danny, the pic comes from a Facebook page I think. I'm not a subscriber so can only offer a link to it. If I'm right I think that Blacksheep's picture is at the extreme RHS and about half way down. Of course I could be wrong, but all the pics are good anyway! :ok:

https://uk.pinterest.com/pin/462393086727818742/sent/?sender=462393224149918546&invite_code=e0b29ebe7e8c4a5595b6485efb1a08bd

Oh, my mistake, it seems that I can at least post a link to the appropriate pic after all:-

https://www.flickr.com/photos/93303627@N07/8484713462/in/photostream

Danny42C
11th Mar 2017, 17:00
Chugalug,

Got a result with your second Link (Thanks), but only a pretty picture of some white canaries !

Don't think that that was quite what Blacksheep had in mind !

Danny.

Geriaviator
11th Mar 2017, 17:17
Hi everyone -- try this one, it works for me :)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/93303627@N07/8484713462/in/photostream/

MPN11
11th Mar 2017, 18:10
Oh, NICE! :ok:
.
.

Danny42C
11th Mar 2017, 20:15
Sherlock Danny gets magifying glass out .............

Opinion: It is a RAAF specimen - "NH" was 12 Sqn, I think. Also big centre white in SEAC roundel is evidence. At first thought no rear armament visible, but careful examination shows tiny tip of what can only be a 0.303 Browning. Ergo a Mk.I (Not Lend-Lease, but bought by British wingeing Poms and given to Oz !), certainly not a Mk.IV.

Chugalug will note that there is clearly only one aerial wire between mast and tail.

Obviously wartime, good shot of the steadying clamps on the wing rack which carried a 250lb bomb.

Thanks, MPN11 and Blacksheep ! (and Chugalug - the canaries were sweet !)

Danny.

BernieC
11th Mar 2017, 20:59
What is the white bulging object under the wing near the fuselage, Please?

Chugalug2
11th Mar 2017, 23:47
Danny, the white canaries are a rare breed indeed, and only for you! :ok:
Oh yes, the antennae is another pointer. The wingtip wires are mercifully absent and thus avoid pilot entanglement. :E

Bernie, I think that the bulges that you refer to are the fairings of the main undercarriage. It seems that it was a peculiarly US arrangement whereby the gear retracted rearwards, rotating as it did so that the wheels lay flat in a bay behind in the wing under surface. It can be found on a number of other types, such as the P-40.

BBadanov
12th Mar 2017, 04:15
Sherlock Danny gets magifying glass out .............
Opinion: It is a RAAF specimen - "NH" was 12 Sqn, I think. Also big centre white in SEAC roundel is evidence. At first thought no rear armament visible, but careful examination shows tiny tip of what can only be a 0.303 Browning. Ergo a Mk.I (Not Lend-Lease, but bought by British wingeing Poms and given to Oz !), certainly not a Mk.IV.
Chugalug will note that there is clearly only one aerial wire between mast and tail.
Obviously wartime, good shot of the steadying clamps on the wing rack which carried a 250lb bomb.
Thanks, MPN11 and Blacksheep ! (and Chugalug - the canaries were sweet !)
Danny.

Hi Danny,
Yes A27-207 was 12 SQN.
But, it's a Vengeance IIA (ex AF941), so you are correct, it is not a Mk.IV.
And, purchased through the British Purchasing Commission at the cost to the Austn Govt, contract no. AC24664/BRA-557, received in Australia in early 1943. So not paid for by wingeing poms, but by the Aussie taxpayer - which is the way it should have been.

And, it is not a SEAC roundel - often mistaken. It was an RAAF 'Pacific roundel', i.e. no red in the centre to avoid confusion with the Japanese red 'meatball', which had happened the previous year with a RAAF Catalina being fired upon by a friendly. (I think we had discussed the Pacific roundel when talking about EZ999, the Mk.I at Camden.)

In 1944, lost on ops when the engine failed and ditched, crew ok. A/c was SOC.

Fareastdriver
12th Mar 2017, 10:57
Sherlock Danny gets magifying glass out .............

Click on the thumbnail, Danny, and it will flash up to full size.

Danny42C
12th Mar 2017, 14:29
Fareastdriver,
....Click on the thumbnail, Danny, and it will flash up to full size. ...
Had done that, FED, then blown up as far as pssible, then got Magnifying Glass out ....

(Comes to us all in time)

Thanks anyway, Danny.

Danny42C
12th Mar 2017, 14:43
BernieC,

It is as Chugalug says. An odd arrangement, and a needless complication, but they like the idea and use it on other s/e types.

Danny.

Danny42C
12th Mar 2017, 17:39
BBadanov (#10366),
...But, it's a Vengeance IIA (ex AF941), so you are correct, it is not a Mk.IV... I'm not completely correct, BB, I think Mk.Is were Northrop-built, and the IIs Vultee-built (as Vultee did not have the production capacity to fulfil both the British (taken over from the collapsed French) and American contracts.

I, II. III were exactly the same aeroplane. All Mark IIIs and IVs were Lend-Lease. Some later Is and IIs were Lend-Lease, the "A" may denote this. All 'ops' were flown in Is and IIs.

I never saw, much less flew or dived a IV. The Mark IV was "a horse of a different colour". Built at the behest of the USAAC, they put a 4° Angle of Incidence on the wing (which had previously had none), and called it their A-35 (the earlier version was the A-31). I would thnk the IV/A-35 would be a better aeroplane, but a worse dive-bomber.

Then the US washed their hands of both models, which were used only as target tugs by both the RAF and RAAF (apart from a few palmed off on Brazil and the Free French in N.Africa). [Source: "Vengeance" by Peter C. Smith]

(Caution: the "Vengeance pilot cockpit panel" illustrated (and photographed) in the above, and in Air Publications "Pilot's Notes", is nothing like a Mk I-II-III. I suspect what they have is from the sole survivor (Camden Museum, Norellan, Sydney): this is EZ999, a Mk.I kitted out (with 0.50 rear gun) as a Mk.IV. This panel may be from a Mk.IV, but I think it's a "bitsa", cobbled together from any bits found lying around.

It was a "SEAC" roundel in SEAC. We just painted out the red centre. In the RAAF, they did the same, then made the white centre bigger.

Danny.

Fareastdriver
12th Mar 2017, 19:00
You can see the angle of incidence in the photo and that one of the propeller blades is missing.;););)

MPN11
12th Mar 2017, 19:06
As a former aircraft modeller, and indeed painter of aircraft profiles, I have a small library of what markings 'should' be. However, in the midst of a war in remote parts, I have no doubt that (lacking the appropriate Air Ministry pamphlet) quite a few aircraft flew with a reasonable approximation of what their Airships intended.

People had more important things to think about ;)

Danny42C
12th Mar 2017, 19:18
Fareastdriver,

There is no AoI there, and there were never ever four props (there are three in sight, but it looks as if there should be a fourth).

Both (photographic) optical illusions.

Danny.

DHfan
12th Mar 2017, 20:28
Re the SEAC markings, you can also see where the red part of the fin flash has been painted out in green where it should be brown.

MPN11
12th Mar 2017, 20:40
Re the SEAC markings, you can also see where the red part of the fin flash has been painted out in green where it should be brown.
Good call! A tactical solution :)

DHfan
12th Mar 2017, 21:28
It was probably the right colour for the other side. One tin, one brush...

BBadanov
13th Mar 2017, 00:14
It is not a real colour photograph, it was a B&W pic that was "colourized" last year by a modeller/planespotter. On the actual B&W image it probably shows up as a darker greyish patch, and he elected to "colour" it green instead of brown!
The colourised WWII images look good...but not necessarily accurate.

Danny42C
13th Mar 2017, 20:36
BBadenov,

After a few months, covered in oil, dust and monsoon mud, our aircraft were one colour only - brown !

(Water was for drinking, cooking and washing us - not for washing aircraft !

Danny.

Pontius Navigator
13th Mar 2017, 20:42
BB, the link States the colouring was by the RAAF Photographic Training Flight, no moideller or spotter

BBadanov
13th Mar 2017, 21:19
PN, cannot find the link I was referring to for a series of these images, will put up if I can find.
It may have been this guy, who did these in 2015:
http://www.adf-messageboard.com.au/invboard/index.php?showtopic=2617
BTW, a modeller/spotter is quite often a good source - ask any aircrew about aircraft markings etc of decades ago, and we may not have the best recall for such detail.
My point however is, treat 'colourisation' with a degree of caution.

BBadanov
14th Mar 2017, 02:55
PN, found that flicker link:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/93303627@N07/sets/72157632826816378/detail/
Never heard of the Photo Trg Flt orgn, it must have been recently cranked up after the School of Photography was blown away in the name of efficiencies, but some of their cam scheme interpretations are way off the mark.
Caveat still applies - I doubt there would be anyone in today's air force (like the RAF) who are putting these details out and who would have detailed knowledge of WWII markings.

Danny42C
16th Mar 2017, 14:18
BBadanov,

There is the one in the Camden Museum, Narellan, Sydney. Temporarily closed to the publc, I think. Might be possible for someone out there who is interested to get in and have a look.

Long shot.

Danny.

EDIT: Oops ! - you're out there already.

esa-aardvark
18th Mar 2017, 06:14
Researching the wartime history of my Father, I know that
he was on a course at Pratt & Whitney, also that he subsequently
assembled Vengeances in India. Somewhere on the Internet (???)
I remember a remark about Pratt & Whitney workers
assembling Wright engines. Anyone know anything?

kopterkojak
18th Mar 2017, 15:23
Guys I am neck deep working on dads Coffee Table book (YOUTUBE.COM/KOPTERKOJAK/AIRFORCEBALLAD) but if I can help in any way lt me know in respect of EFS Begumpet 42,then Ambala,Bhopal,151 OTU Walton Lahore,SS STRAITHEAD,SS ILE DE FRANCE,UK Harrogate 7 PRC,17(P)AFU Calvely Miles Master,5 (P)AFU Ternhill Hurris,57 OTU Eshott & BOULMER SPITS,SS MULOGA,RFU Poona,9 IAF COx's Huris,8 RIAF Mingladon Spits
Regards
Kojak
[email protected]

Danny42C
18th Mar 2017, 15:53
Kojak (#10384).

Welcome aboard !.
...RFU Poona,9 IAF COx's Huris,8 RIAF Mingladon Spits,,,
Too late for the Vengeance, then ! But when you were on the Spits (8 Sqn) did you come across a Niel (sic) Ker ? Also,what do you think of the Tale of the Buried Spitfires in Burma, which caused such excitement a couple of years ago ?

Danny42C (ex 110 and 8 IAF Sqns).

sannatuu
22nd Mar 2017, 19:24
... After this first solo flight, his euphoria was short lived as he entered the crew room to discover a notice which informed him, and one or two others, that they were being sent to the other side of the airfield to be trained as navigators. Along with his friend George Sproates (see Post7851) their initial reaction to this was that they felt “stitched up” or “sold down the river” and they were very angry. They felt like deliberately failing the course until they realised that it meant that they would probably end up with a worse job and, once he got started, he actually found it quite interesting.


Dear pulse1,

First of all apologies to all involved as I have to admit that I am not a pilot and have nothing to do with aviation, however something you posted came up in my google search that I couldn't pass by.

To explain I have to quickly tell you that I am a native Finn and due to the nature of the relationship between Finland and the Soviet Union after WW2 it was not allowed or advised to talk about the war and thus barely know anything about my grandfathers' time defending our country. However there is plenty of information available on my British partners grandfather and have been incredibly interested in his time as an RAF navigator, hence my keen googling.

My partner's grandfather was George Sproates originally from a mining family in the North East and served as a navigator during the war. I have shared some of the information in your post with George's daughter and she said that it definitely sounds like him...! Sadly he passed away in the 60's after surviving a crash in Libya and two years in L3 as a POW.

The family would be incredibly interested in hearing stories about him, if it would be possible to pass this message on to your friend Frank?

Thank you very in advance for your help..!

Sanna

ICM
23rd Mar 2017, 11:18
Sannatuu: Do you know if this could be the same navigator G Sproates who became Commanding Officer of 10 Squadron from 1955-56, when the unit was flying the Canberra jet bomber? Has participation in the air attacks on Egypt in 1956 ever been mentioned in the family, for example? As it happens, I've just started trying to find out a bit more about him for the Squadron Association website and, from some of the bits I've found online, I'm wondering if there might have been two of them around post-war. One retired in 1971 as a Group Captain and if you're correct about a death in the 60s, then it does seem that there were two after all.

Danny42C
23rd Mar 2017, 13:02
esa-aardvark (#10383),
... also that he subsequently assembled Vengeances in India...
The story we heard was that they'd lost the assembly manuals, and they had to be put together "By guess and by God" ("simple home assembly" ?) Did your Dad say anything about that ?
... Pratt & Whitney workers assembling Wright engines...
Much the same, I would imagine. (Any techies listening ?)

Danny.

Danny42C
23rd Mar 2017, 13:46
sannatuu (#10386),

First, as the Oldest Inhabitant (AFAIK), let me welcome you aboard this, the best Thread on the best Forum of all the PPRuNe Forums (Fora ?) Draw up a chair near the stove in this our old cyber-crewroom and listen to the Wisdom of the Ancients. Don't go away, now !
...and have nothing to do with aviation...
You have now !

You can get the "Air Force List" on Google (have done it once, but can't remember how). But plenty of people here CAN. George Sproates is the name, chaps - go to it. (And read p.393, #7851 first).

Danny42C.

Ddraig Goch
26th Mar 2017, 07:46
Hi Danny et al, I don't know if I've posted this before on this best of best threads. It's a story of a young pilot who went through WW 2 as a mechanic AC 1 and pilot. His story parallels Danny's in many ways :

Undaunted > Vintage Wings of Canada (http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/580/Undaunted.aspx)

If I have posted this before please forgive me but if not I hope you enjoy the story.

pulse1
26th Mar 2017, 13:45
Sannatuu,

Sadly, Frank passed away a few weeks ago at the age of 98 so I cannot ask him any more about his old friend George Sproates. I can only repeat what I wrote before. The most important bit, if you are trying to identify your George is that, according to Frank, his last job in the RAF was as Station Commander at Akrotiri. I do not remember him telling me that George was ever a POW. Frank was highly amused at the rapid progress made by his Geordie friend through the ranks of the RAF and put it down to his excellent acting skills and being able to hide his pronounced accent.

Others may be interested to learn that Frank's story on this thread formed the basis of Frank's obituary in the local paper.

Danny42C
26th Mar 2017, 14:26
pulse 1,

Requiscat in Pace. A pity.

Danny.

ICM
27th Mar 2017, 09:02
Pulse 1 & sannatuu:

I too am sorry to hear that Frank has died - at 98 it sounds as if he had a good innings.

I've continued looking into George Sproates' background and I'm now pretty much convinced that there was only one and that he was Frank's friend in early days. Searches on the London Gazette give just one Sproates for the timescale of interest, and I believe I now have a continuous track from 945221 Sgt G Sproates to his commissioning as Pilot Officer (114580) and on to his early retirement as Group Captain on 31 March 1971. And that last date poses an immediate question - Sannatuu mentions a death 'in the 60s' and if that's correct, I'm back to Square 1. Equally, Frank believed George was OC Akrotiri - but that view is not supported by the RAFWEB list of Station Comanders. 'My' George was promoted to Gp Capt on 1 Jan 64 and, as many may recall, during the 60s the multi-role base that was Akrotiri had a series of Air Commodores as COs. If George was in Cyprus, entirely possible, perhaps it was in the staff of HQ NEAF?

The 272 Sqn connection on Beaufighters in Egypt for Frank and George is certainly there. George went missing in March 1942 and appears in the POW records as having been held in Stalag Luft III. As Frank appears to have been unaware of that, perhaps he himself had gone missing earlier on. And if so, that might explain Frank's surprise at George taking a commission, because that fact was known on the Squadron in early 1942.

Interestingly, George was Mentioned in Despatches for ops in Korea in 1951. So, given the RAF's limited participation in the war out there, was he then on Sunderlands? Or perhaps even on an Exchange with the RAAF? Also, as a Sqn Ldr, he was one of the student navs for the polar Aries flights in December 1954, shortly before joining 10 Sqn as OC in April 1955. And that's about as far as I've got for now.

Sannatuu, I think we're dealing withe same man - one born in the Durham area on 18 June 1921 and who died towards the end of 1971 around Gosport. If your partner thinks that might be him, let's get together to see how much more we can establish together.

ian16th
27th Mar 2017, 14:51
I was stationed at Akrotiri 1962-4, I cannot remember the Station Masters name, but he was definitely a Gp Capt.

JAVELINBOY
27th Mar 2017, 17:30
Could it have been Casey Jones?

ICM
27th Mar 2017, 17:31
Ian, I believe that would have been Gp Capt Verity, followed from 1965 by a string of 5 Air Cdres:

Station OCs - Middle East (http://www.rafweb.org/Stations/Station%20OCs-Middle%20East.htm#Akrotiri)

ian16th
27th Mar 2017, 20:20
Ian, I believe that would have been Gp Capt Verity, followed from 1965 by a string of 5 Air Cdres:

Station OCs - Middle East (http://www.rafweb.org/Stations/Station%20OCs-Middle%20East.htm#Akrotiri)
Strange that I don't remember that name.

As a Yorkshireman I worship it. :ok:


But the high-water mark of Verity's career came during a long-forgotten County Championship match in 1932. On the Headingley ground near his birthplace, Verity returned staggering figures of 10 for 10 against Nottinghamshire - a world record that still stands.

pzu
27th Mar 2017, 23:47
See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedley_Verity

Realise it's only Wiki, but I think they are right this time

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

Krakatoa
28th Mar 2017, 02:21
I was on 88 Squadron (Sunderlands) at Seletar 1951 and i remember the CO of 205 Squadron (Sunderlands) was a Navigator, Squadron Leader G Sproates.
This would explain the MID for Korea. The three Squadrons, 205 88 and 209 were the limited RAF operations in Korea.

Geriaviator
28th Mar 2017, 11:38
I have mailed Kojak regarding his #10385 in the hope he can enlighten me regarding childhood memories which I don't think I have related on this thread – if I did, apologies.

My father was posted to India in 1945 to join the Japanese offensive. My mother and I joined him at Poona in early 1946, the first time I spent any time with my father as it was very difficult for him to travel home. After weeks of pestering he took me to Poona airfield where I saw a monster aeroplane waddling in from the airfield towards the hangar, I remember thinking the pilot wasn't very good at steering … two decades later I encountered my first taildragger and swiftly discovered why one has to taxi in zigzags.

So it came to pass that the first aircraft I ever saw up close was that Vultee Vengeance ... at five years old I was lifted into the cockpit and I remember the stick handgrip was level with my eyes and everybody laughed when I asked how the pilot could see out. There were Indian officers present, I do not know if my father was attached to the IAF at that time. He was then posted to Drigh Road, Karachi, where the RAF operated Tempests. We all left for Blighty on Partition in 1947.

We lived in simple bungalows on what I think was Wagholi Road. About two bungalows from us was a narrow gauge railway level crossing which led from a long ramp up the face of a very big quarry. I was told the railway was run by the Sappers and Miners, and Driver Singh hauling two wagons of stone used to take me up and down the line to the depot about two miles away, to the great concern of my poor mother. I didn't mind the heat on the footplate although the ironwork on the wagons was too hot to touch, especially if they had been parked in the afternoon sun. I still wonder if this was the extensive Wagholi Quarry which I can see on Google Earth.

How maintenance crews worked inside the aircraft in the tropics is hard to comprehend. Later at RAF Khormaksar in 1951 I encountered my first air conditioning plant. A portable unit like a trolley-acc chugged away at the hangar door, whence a foot-wide trunk led through my father's office door. He was seldom short of company in his cool office, except when the machine was required for its rightful task of cooling down visiting transports.

ICM
28th Mar 2017, 12:02
Krakatoa: Many thanks for that info - it ties up his Sunderland connection but he was a Flt Lt at the time of the award in August 1951, so probably not the CO. (Sunderlands, then Canberras soon after - looks like an example of the 'balanced career' for GD officers one used to hear about.)

Danny42C
28th Mar 2017, 14:18
Geriaviator (#10401),
,,,My father was posted to India in 1945 to join the Japanese offensive. My mother and I joined him at Poona in early 1946...This has me puzzled. In August 1945 it was all over bar the shouting. You would be waiting for a troopship back to UK. Why would a family come out to join you (presumably at their own expense) in India at that point ? Doesn't make sense. Or was it some sort of "indulgence" passage (as you only arrived in '45, you'd be on the end of the queue for repatriation). How long did you have to wait in fact?
...I saw a monster aeroplane waddling in...What a perfect description of a VV ! (it waddled in the air as on the ground) I still recall the shock when I saw the things for the first time at Madhaiganj - and the horror when they told me that i'd have to fly them, and not the Spitfires I expected !
...I remember thinking the pilot wasn't very good at steering...As the owner of a R22 at Biggin would ruefully agree (Bird in a Biplane !). and you and your mother must've felt the heat that first year.

Cheers, Danny

Geriaviator
28th Mar 2017, 14:35
Danny: my father was already there; my mother, myself and my baby sister were conveyed at His Majesty's expense aboard the good ship Strathnaver from Southampton to Bombay. Our fine cruise took three weeks and we enjoyed luxurious accommodation with three-decker bunks in near-empty dormitories. There was no problem shipping families out, the problem was going the other way and no doubt many thousands of Servicemen would have been delighted to sleep on the deck as long as they got passage home.

Presumably the prospect of Indian independence and ensuing Partition was still some distance away in British thinking, we expected our posting to last for a few years at least. Seventy years later I still treasure those memories.

Danny42C
29th Mar 2017, 20:27
Geriaviator (#10404),

Well, a three - tier bunk is not so bad (you would be in the [best] one on top, I take it).- What an adventure for a five -year old (did you put in at Aden ? - little did you know the fun you would have there seven years later).

I was on top of a seven - tier one going out, and could touch the ceiling of what had been the First-Class Dining Saloon . Of course, you would go through the Canal, whereas I had eight weeks at sea, with a stop in Brazil, and then round the Cape to another stop in Durban and then Bombay.
...the prospect of Indian independence and ensuing Partition was still some distance away in British thinking...No, we had long been reconciled to its inevitability, the only problem was: when - and on what terms ? The best of all solutions would have been a brown Dominion, but the Hindu Congress had the bit between its teeth, and would not entertain the idea (although Jinnah might have been more favourable). But he would not trust the Congress as far as he could throw Nehru. So Partition it had to be, although both Wavell and Mountbatten had argued against it, knowing what would would be the likely result.

Their worst fears came true. In the communal massacres which followed Partition in 1947, it death roll was estimated at two million, and another 14 million were displaced. Even the "Daily Mirror" ran a leader under the heading: "THEY KNEW !" ... "Isn't it annoying when the wrong people turn out to have been right" ... "The Indians are behaving exactly as those Blimps and curry-Colonels said they would !"

Your:
...I didn't mind the heat on the footplate although the ironwork on the wagons was too hot to touch, especially if they had been parked in the afternoon sun. I still wonder if this was the extensive Wagholi Quarry which I can see on Google Earth.

How maintenance crews worked inside the aircraft in the tropics is hard to comprehend...Extract from my Page 137, #2726:
...So now you get the picture. Your bush-jacketed, bush-hatted and khaki- slacked young man first tied this belt round his middle. Then he buckled himself into his webbing, ending with crossed shoulder straps, holster and pistol on his left hip, lanyard (on shoulder under epaulette flap, NOT round his neck), On his right hip lay the the kukri and side pack. (The webbing belt was buckled over the money belt).

Thus encumbered, he climbed up into the cockpit, scorching after hours in the tropic sun, sat down on his hot parachute seat cushion (hotter still if he hadn't folded the back over it when he last climbed out), fastened the shoulder and leg straps tight (or his chance of posterity might, after bale-out, be negligible), then clipped the four ends of the seat harness in the quick-release box and tightened that over all.

Thank Heavens, all our trips were over land, so we didn't have to wear "Mae Wests", or sit on the lumpy, abominably uncomfortable "K" dinghy pack.
By the time we'd donned flying helmet (tropical, cotton), and goggles over our fevered brows, we were damned glad to get the big fan in front working. That first long blast of air (hot as it was !) was pure bliss.

Our canopies were always left open, In the climb, temperature drops at the rate of three Fahrenheit per thousand feet, so at 10,000 it was 30 deg cooler and we shivered. But by then we'd be running in to our targets, closing our canopies, and would be down in the hot-air oven again very soon...But it was a good life !

Tell us your experience of India (or at least Karachi and Poona) with a five-year old eyes !

What was it like coming home ?

Cheers, Danny.

ian16th
30th Mar 2017, 08:24
How maintenance crews worked inside the aircraft in the tropics is hard to comprehend... Was there ever an a/c worse for working in on the ground in tropical clime's, than the Canberra's with the B2 type canopy?

I know that 'sunshades' were invented for them, but those Canberra's were sauna's.

gzornenplatz
30th Mar 2017, 16:34
I once had to abort a compass swing in a Javelin T3 at Tengah. You couldn't taxy the T3 with the canopy closed and you couldn't have the AC on on the ground. We finally had to quit when the Nav complained the bit of paper he was using had dissolved due to the sweat from his chin,

Geriaviator
1st Apr 2017, 15:56
Tell us your experience of India (or at least Karachi and Poona) with a five-year old eyes !Your wish is my command, O senior one. First, Kojak has kindly answered my Poona inquiry: the ambience in cantt Pune is the same.Af Stn would have changed, he says. But after 70 years RAF Poona is bound to have changed like everything else.

My earliest memory from 1946 is travelling from Portrush in Co Antrim to Belfast, an exciting train journey which became decidedly less enjoyable when we reached the hospital where I was introduced to inoculations: yellow fever which stung like a hornet, TABC/typhus which made us sick for a week, cholera ditto, smallpox a very sore arm. In a few weeks we were off, train to Belfast, overnight boat to Liverpool, trains with several changes via Waterloo to Southampton, at last embarkation on the Strathnaver. Other than three-tier bunks and the Suez Canal with its bumboatmen and the Giligili magician I remember little of the voyage until exotic spicy smells (and others less so) came wafting over the deck even five miles out of Bombay. There were several RAF families on board and their menfolk came out to the Strathnaver on a launch; my father was just one head visible amongst them, I and the other children could not understand why our mothers were excited about meeting someone we had never met. Such were the vicissitudes of Service life when its families were still spread around the Empire.

We travelled by train from Bombay to Poona, I see it's only 60 miles or so. Families were given a wooden-framed bungalow thatched with (?? palm leaves) a short gharri ride from the airfield, like most personnel my father used a pushbike. Our mothers walked us to the RAF school, I think there were two or three classes from civilian families as well. All the RAF families had a bearer, we called ours Pop and this kindly man was a treasure whom we treated as one of the family. He taught my father to make real curries and we brought a supply of spices when we returned to the UK as such things were unheard of in those days. Cooking was by two or three Primus stoves and an oil-fed cooker which was regulated by counting drops of oil through a glass sight. I found this most interesting but was banned from the tiny kitchen after my full-throttle experiment set fire to the thatched roof and nearly burned down the house. Otherwise the only dissonance arose when my mother swatted flies, and Pop would sadly shake his head and remonstrate 'memsahib, memsahib' because as a Hindu he revered all forms of life.

Other childhood memories include shopping trips with my parents in horse-drawn gharri but I much preferred the 15cwt Bedford truck, borrowed by the MT officer two doors away. On the journey we sometimes went past the burning ghats with their clouds of drifting smoke. My father took me to the airfield a few times but I don't remember details apart from the monstrous Vengeances and being spoiled rotten by the Indian officers who (if I remember correctly) were to take over the base from the RAF.

We were posted to Karachi and spent almost a week on the Deccan Queen express via Lahore, a journey of some 1500 miles. Each family was allocated half a coach, with lounge and sleeping accommodation, but we were horrified when told that Pop had to travel in the native carriage farther along the train. The adults were shattered by the heat and the slow journey but we kids would have been happy to stay aboard for a month.

Somehow we didn't like Karachi as much as Poona and I remember little about it. We went to school by gharri (usually Bedford QL) apart from the great day when the MT section ran out of trucks and we kids were packed into three Jeeps instead, with grave risks to health and safety but sheer bliss for those hanging over the sides of the swaying vehicles. My father took me across Drigh Road to see the Tempests, but these were thrown into insignificance when I encountered the magnificent white-painted Lancaster which came through twice a week. Dad said they were selling them for a few pounds at home. Ever the optimist, I began saving my pocket money... as I would save for another 21 years and even then my first aircraft was not a Lancaster, but hey, you can't have everything.

My excitement knew no bounds when Dad announced we were to fly from Karachi to Bombay, where we would board the Georgic for home. We boarded a Dakota with a line of canvas seats down each side and so began my lifelong love of flying. We returned home in February of the terrible 1947 winter, being allocated a couple of rooms at RAF North Coates which had closed in 1946. These were standard wartime blocks, with condensation running down the single-skin brickwork and asbestos roofs. The radiators were barely warm, augmented by two electric rings for cooking; when all the families switched on the fuses would blow, so heavier fuses were fitted, culminating in a very satisfying bang when the transformer at the Patch entrance exploded with a blue flash that was seen two miles away. I and a few other families from India had a terrible cough which was diagnosed as bronchitis and effectively treated with M+B tablets, the new-fangled penicillin. A year later, the new NHS mass radiography service came round the schools and revealed that we had contracted tuberculosis during our last days in India. In fairness the RAF kept a close eye on our family with annual X-rays for the rest of our service.

We were then moved to the North Coates married quarters, where we lived on what is now Marsh Way where the quarters are still in use. Even the (new) transformer still stands in its brick enclosure. My father was stationed with 9 Sqn at Binbrook 15 miles away, he and colleagues would cycle there on Monday and stay in the Sgts Mess until Friday. Given the grim winters on the Lincolnshire Wolds, the RAF eventually relented and supplied a truck until MQ at Binbrook became available. There we enjoyed three very happy years until being posted to Aden.

My parents are long gone but we agreed we did enjoy our travels in the days when the journey was part of the experience. Our one regret was that we never heard from Pop again and we feared he became victim of the massacres which followed Partition. As a family we still feel guilty that we took him so far from his home. Only when I became much older did I appreciate the burdens placed upon my mother and all Service wives, burdens only recognised by choirmaster Gareth Malone and his Military Wives' Choir. I was not surprised that Mr Malone took a well deserved six months' sabbatical to recover from his emotional experiences.

JW411
1st Apr 2017, 16:18
Well done; I thoroughly enjoyed reading that.

ricardian
1st Apr 2017, 17:46
Well done; I thoroughly enjoyed reading that.

Yes, well written and a fascinating glimpse into post-war military life for families

Danny42C
1st Apr 2017, 21:49
Geriaviator,

What wonderful memories ! - and how clearly you remember them. Thanks for sharing them,

Danny.

Geriaviator
2nd Apr 2017, 17:46
Fortified by your kind words, fellow pPruners, I push my luck as I have always done and offer a few more Poona memories from 1946:

HAVING joined my father at RAF Poona several months back, five-year-old Geriaviator is learning my way around this strange new world. I'm watching my new friend Lithard, so called because I'm still having trouble with my Zs; he's a big green lizard with an orange stripe down his back, he lives in the thatch above my bedroom and he has learned to come out when I tap the thatch with a stick so the bugs fall out to the great distress of my mother, especially when the big brown ones go scrunch as Lithard seizes them for his breakfast.

Mummy and Daddy are still in bed, I toddled in to see them a while back but Daddy growled something about five o'clock go back to bed. Suddenly I hear the welcome sound of a motorbike being kick started, or rather kicked and not starting. A motorbike launch is a major event. It's Sgt James next door, though I can call him Mr James as we don't stand on formality. After many kicks he says “yoo ********* ****” and pedals away on his pushbike.

Between times I have been learning Hindi from Pop, our kindly bearer, so I repeat “yoo ********* ****” several times to lodge it in memory. Now I know the Hindi word for motorcycle, and as Mummy and Daddy are up at last I proudly announce the latest addition to my vocabulary: Yoo ********* ****. Awed by her son's new command of Hindi, Mummy stands in stunned silence, Daddy starts coughing and looks the other way. I certainly didn't teach him that, he mutters.

I overheard Daddy saying that James had got the motorbike from the Pongos, and carefully note this for future reference. I have no idea what these Pongos might be, but they might have another bike which I could ride when I'm bigger. Indeed, the Pongos might find a spare Bedford truck I could take off their hands, and there's plenty of Vengeance aeroplanes lying about the airfield...

After breakfast I decide to help Mr James with his motorcycle, as he has thoughtfully left his tools alongside the recalcitrant machine. I have watched him changing the plug, an operation required on many occasions, so I place the plug spanner and give it a heave. I'm not strong enough to release the plug but I do manage to break the insulator as the spanner slews sideways despite my father's dash along the verandah.

Now see what you've done, says Daddy. Mr. James will find it very hard to get another spark plug, you will have to tell him you're very sorry. Yoo ********* ****, I reply. Daddy seems lost for words. A few days later Mr James repairs his bike but returns home with his leg in a big white boot, having fallen off the machine and broken his leg. Yes, he has a very sore leg, he confirms when I board his verandah to inspect his big boot.

Yoo ********* ****, I say. Something like that, replies Mr. James.

FantomZorbin
3rd Apr 2017, 07:38
Dear Geriaviator, thank you so much! You've lifted my spirits on, what is promising to be, a really sh*t day!! Thank you.

Blacksheep
3rd Apr 2017, 09:19
Excellent yarn, Geriaviator. That has made my morning tea break an even happier occasion.

I did wonder what our own children made of our dragging them around the jungles of Borneo and Malaysia. "It was great fun" they all agreed - childhood makes fun of everything, does it not?

Danny42C
3rd Apr 2017, 14:47
Blacksheep (#10414),
..."It was great fun" they all agreed - childhood makes fun of everything, does it not?...
Not only that, the "service brats" derived great benefit from the experience, at a time when their minds were most receptive. I bet the young Geriaviator, after chattering to "Pop" (their "Bearer") in Hindi for a few weeks, could confidently go shopping in the bazaar (and even translate for his parents - Mrs D. never forgot the occasion when a young American "service brat" of some 10 summers helped her out in a butcher's shop in Holland, where (exceptionally) no one spoke English).

And I always remember the priceless BBC newsreel scene where Joanna Lumley (as the daughter of a Ghurka officer a prize specimen of the breed) and a "Daughter of the Raj" to boot, made mincemeat of a hapless Government Minister over the question of Ghurka ex-servicemen's rights to residence here.

They came home more self-reliant and more self-confident than the generality of children (I saw that in my Mary), and when (as many would) they joined the Services themselves, it was not such an alien world as otherwise it may have been.

'''''''''''''''

Geriaviator,

I would have been wary of tapping the palm thatch to flush out tasty mortals for "Lithard", for you might have brought down something a foot long and with fearsome jaws and a million legs quite capable of taking him on ! You say he came to your call, and no doubt you talked to him as you would later do to Abdul the Land-Crab in Aden. No worry about that, it's only when Lithard or Abdul started talking back to you that you realised that you had been out in the sun too long.

But they were happy days .........

Cheers both, Danny. s

Exnomad
3rd Apr 2017, 20:49
My brother, Older than me, was called up in 1942, and volunteered for RAF. The selection was at the Metropole Hotel in Brighton, convenient, we lived in Brighton. He did his basic train training in Rhodesia, and then to Scotland on Oxfords, which I did a lot of years later,
He spent most of the war in training command, but did a few ops in Wellingtons and Lancasters.

Phil66
4th Apr 2017, 16:40
Hi Walter,
I believe Rube Giles was a distant cousin to me. I understand he died in s plane crash in 1954 near Berlin. I would be interested to hear anything you remember about him.
Thanks
Phil

Phil66
4th Apr 2017, 16:45
Here are some of the pics taken 75 years ago in Libya by Reuben (Reub) Giles, DFC, a great friend who was the only one I knew with a camera.


Hi Walter are you still in this forum?
I'd like to exchange info about Reuben Giles.
I think he was a distant cousin. I understand he died in a plane crash in 1954 near Berlin flying an Avro York.
https://www.fof-ohlsdorf.de/files/fof/129s22_zeitung.jpg

Or if anybody else knows about him I would be interested
On 26 Jun 28 1954, a Skyways Ltd Avro York aircraft (Registration:G-AGNY) crashed near Kyritz in the Soviet zone, 50 Miles northwest of Berlin. The crew of three were killed. There was no cargo onboard. The Times newspaper named the three crew as: Capt B S Murphy, First Officer Rube Giles and Radio operator Z I Patterson

Phil

Danny42C
5th Apr 2017, 16:27
To All and Sundry,


Danny`s Laptop has gone ape and will have to go to Friendly Neighbourhood IT Wizard to be sorted out. Some Notepad files (on Flash Drive) have been transferred to daughter`s Laptop.


So business as usual ? `Fraid not. Danny himself has gone u/s and is being bunged full of antibiotics and sleeps all the time.


"I may be away for some time". Nothing more from me TFN.


Danny.

MPN11
5th Apr 2017, 16:38
I wish Danny42C and his laptop a prompt recovery.

lasernigel
5th Apr 2017, 19:18
Get well soon Danny42C

Lyneham Lad
5th Apr 2017, 19:35
I wish Danny42C and his laptop a prompt recovery.

And so say all of us...

kookabat
6th Apr 2017, 05:31
I wish Danny42C and his laptop a prompt recovery.

What he said. Get well soon.

ian16th
6th Apr 2017, 08:08
What he said. Get well soon.
Me as well.

ricardian
6th Apr 2017, 10:13
Get well soon Danny42C

Molemot
6th Apr 2017, 15:00
Hang on in there, Danny....

Wander00
6th Apr 2017, 16:00
Get well Danny, you and your laptop, but especially you. We miss you


W

MPN11
6th Apr 2017, 16:07
OK, anyone for a game of Uckers while we wait? ;)

Taphappy
6th Apr 2017, 18:11
Danny,
Wishing you a speedy recovery.

Brian 48nav
6th Apr 2017, 19:19
Thinking of you Danny - attaboy!

oxenos
6th Apr 2017, 21:19
Come on Danny - the crew room isn't the same without you. And besides, we're running out of clean coffee mugs.

Always a Sapper
6th Apr 2017, 23:10
Come on Danny, we are all wishing for your speedy recovery

Octane
7th Apr 2017, 05:05
Thinking of you Danny, hope you get sorted soon :sad:

Chugalug2
7th Apr 2017, 07:29
Danny, if there were any doubt at all as to the affection in which you are held by all who follow you here, then the many posts above are answer in full. All I can do is to add my wishes for your speedy recovery and to resume your rightful place in your battered armchair in our virtual crewroom ASAP.

FantomZorbin
7th Apr 2017, 08:05
ditto every one of the above ... get well soon Danny.


PS ... not forgetting Danny's laptop. http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif

Ormeside28
7th Apr 2017, 09:09
Get well soon Danny, good people are getting scarce.

Ddraig Goch
8th Apr 2017, 06:00
Best wishes Danny for a speedy recovery.

Madbob
8th Apr 2017, 06:49
Get well soon Danny. We are all thinking of you and wish your early return to normal ops.

Take care

Maddbob

Bucc Man
11th Apr 2017, 17:55
Gunning for you Danny

Bucc

Fareastdriver
11th Apr 2017, 19:48
Could do with an update, Danny

ancientaviator62
12th Apr 2017, 07:22
FE,
I agree my nails are now almost non existent.

Danny42C
12th Apr 2017, 12:22
"Ah, my foes, and oh, my friends",

I'm touched by the concern expressed over my well-being these past few days, and sincerely thank all those who have Posted here to that effect.

Know now that (like Mark Twain), "Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated", and Danny is Sitting Up and Taking Nourishment, so back in business pro tem.

But his laptop is not, or only temorarily: it is functional once more, but charger input jack is knackered (well, it is six years old and has had a hard life); contact can only be achieved by a lot of delicate twiddling and the muttered recitation of certain Anglo-Saxon incantations with which most of us are depressingly familiar.

As the thing is still under extended warranty, so soon a Nice Man will turn up at my door, take it away, renew input jack point, bring it back and tell me whether warranty will cover what is clearly "Fair Wear and Tear", or - "How Much ?"

Local IT wizard would do the job for a (fairly) modest sum, but as this would probably break terms of warranty, so will go for Nice Man. Only snag: "How long will you need to have it ?" ..... "We aim to have all repairs done in fifty (yes, fifty !) working days" .... Wish me luck.

While mine is away, can work on my daughter's laptop (when she's out), but as it does not have a touchscreen and the keyboard is slightly different, do not expect much output.

Danny.

Dougie M
12th Apr 2017, 13:01
I think a collective sigh of relief greets your return, Danny. Welcome back

Wander00
12th Apr 2017, 14:20
Great you are back, Danny. Stay safe and well

Fareastdriver
12th Apr 2017, 15:03
I have just congratulated Danny being back on the Pilot's Longevity thread. It reminds me of a joke years ago when a little boy is talking to a pilot.

"I want to be a pilot when I grow up."

"You can't do both."

I hope that like Danny I never grow up , and then get old.

Geriaviator
12th Apr 2017, 16:22
Delighted to see you back, Danny, we'll understand you cannot post so easily, clearly ancient Danny CPU far outlasts modern laptop CPU.
**** CREWROOM BOREDOM ALERT ****
Indeed your return has inspired me to return to Poona 1946, stand by :8

Warmtoast
12th Apr 2017, 16:46
Danny - Welcome back!

ricardian
12th Apr 2017, 18:16
Welcome back Danny

ORAC
12th Apr 2017, 18:55
Well if someone who knows how would like to crowd fund a new large screen PC/laptop for Danny I'd throw in £20 today. 50 days is too much to miss.

ricardian
12th Apr 2017, 20:03
Well if someone who knows how would like to crowd fund a new large screen PC/laptop for Danny I'd throw in £20 today. 50 days is too much to miss.

Here's another £20. Anybody else?

Danny42C
12th Apr 2017, 20:18
Thanks, chaps, for the warm welcome back (glad to be back !)

ORAC (#10449) and ricardian (#10450), ............... No, No, please, Gentlemen !

A generous offer indeed, Sirs - but no thanks ! (don't think the job'll take anyway near as long as that): I'm no techician, but imagine that once you have got the old female connector out, and the new one to hand, a soldering iron and twenty minutes, then another twenty to put everything back, should be enough. (But I may be talking through my hat - it wouldn't be the first time !)

I stand to be corrected.

Danny.

ORAC
12th Apr 2017, 20:22
Nobody repairs anything these days - integrated boards with nano sized connectors - everything is disposed of Danny. You won't get your old machine back repaired. They'll replace with an "equivalent" second hand machine". Which won't be.

You need an iPad Pro and I am happy to contribute.

Danny42C
12th Apr 2017, 20:56
ORAC (#10452),
...nano sized connectors...Dunno about that. Nice big plug, carries thick end of 20V DC; hole to match.

Mind you, if they do give me a 'new' (2/h) one, am up creek sans paddle, as it has taken me six years to get a grip on what I've got (inc resident gremlin); now much too old a dog to learn any more new tricks.

iPad Pro ? :eek: - I don't even know what that is, never mind operate one !

Keep your money in your wallets, Gentlemen, please. :=

Danny.

lasernigel
13th Apr 2017, 00:35
Nice to see you again Danny 42C.

Chugalug2
13th Apr 2017, 05:53
Welcome back, Danny! Great to see you posting again. Like you, I cannot come to terms with the "use it, then bin it" ways of today. We dinosaurs must stick together! :ok:

Ddraig Goch
13th Apr 2017, 06:01
Great news Danny is back (except for the computer problem)!
Just seen that you are back and in good form, the crew room can get going again. Did you notice the pause in story telling while you were off line? It shows the respect you are held in by all who follow this thread of threads.

MPN11
13th Apr 2017, 07:21
Hi, Danny ... welcome back! Your turn to put a brew on, I think ;)

(And welcome back to me too, having just survived the 24h + return journey from Arizona ;) )

FantomZorbin
13th Apr 2017, 11:28
Great to have you back Danny http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/smile.gif
Sorry to hear that the laptop is in need of a bit of TLC - infuriating things especially when the u/s gizmo is worth only pence!

Danny42C
13th Apr 2017, 12:08
Chugalug (#10455) - and thanks to all the others who've welcomed me back so heartily,

You've put the finger on it:
...Like you, I cannot come to terms with the "use it, then bin it" ways of today. We dinosaurs must stick together!...
No, we can never be rid of the "make do and mend" mentality of our distant youth. I'm truly humbled by ORAC's generous offer, but (luckily) am in a position where I could buy a dozen new touchscreen laptops if I wanted and feel no pain.

But I "wasn't brought up that way" (as we used to say), we saved our pennies for a rainy day, when your sock had a hole, your Mum darned and darned it until there was more darn than sock. For you never know what the future holds.

In like manner my six year old Acer is "one of the family", you might say, for all its faults (and they are legion), I will stay with it (on the "devil you know" principle) as long as it stays with me.

Cheers to all for Easter, Danny (there is life in old dogs yet).

PS: Tastes vary, but if you're one of the few who haven't seen "Peter Kay's Car Share" (BBC1) yet, Series 2 is on iPlayer, but Series 1 (only on DVD now [Brazilian River - very reasonable] - best seen first ) - is more than worth the money. Try it ! D.

Danny42C
13th Apr 2017, 12:25
MPN11 (#10457),

Welcome back from Arizona - and think of all those lovely Air Miles ! Never could get the sense of paying good money for what they used to pay me for. No more flying for me now until I'm fitted with my white smock, wings and harp (fat chance !).

Kettle on.

Danny.

MPN11
13th Apr 2017, 14:56
Thanks for the brew, Danny. :D

Yes, lovely 'air miles', renewing our BA Gold frequent flyer status for another membership year. Hawaii (Maui) next stop :)

Jobza Guddun
13th Apr 2017, 20:56
Great start to my weekend. Nice one Danny :ok:

Danny42C
14th Apr 2017, 12:02
This Best of All Threads has regained its proper place as the Thread with the most Posts and the most 'hits' of any on this Forum (if you ignore "Stickies" and "CapCom", which by their very nature are bound to have enormous numbers of both).


As I've said before: "Cliffnemo" (Clifford Leach RIP) "builded better than he knew" when he started it in 2008. It has been an evergreen here ever since, rarely lapsing into Page 2 (the Slough of Despond) of "Military Aviation" Forum. Long may this continue.


STOP PRESS.


Total Laptop Failure.


Danny42C will be operating (slowly and awkwardly !) on my daughter's Laptop TFN. Do not expect much !


Happy Easter ! Danny.

MPN11
14th Apr 2017, 13:30
RIP, Danny's Laptop. You served him, and this community, well and righteously during your too-brief span of life. May your successor achieve the same greatness you did.

Octane
16th Apr 2017, 05:38
Hello Danny,

I'm so pleased and relieved to hear you're back on track..!

Re your laptop, I know exactly what you mean. My trusty 7 year old XP lappy has the same problem! I need to twiddle the the power plug to get the thing to charge and lately the twiddling required has increased dramatically and become tiresome.
Cunningly, I thought I'd just hard wire the charging cable until I realized half way through the dismantling process the work involved to get the required access to do so. Like you, the time has come to put it to pasture...
Amazingly the device still works minus about 17 screws I didn't replace! :}

Cheers

Octane

Danny42C
16th Apr 2017, 15:03
Octane (#10465),
... the time has come to put it to pasture...
This is not the spirit that "Made the Empire Great" !


Over the years I've paid enough for extended warranties to buy two new ones. I
intend to get the thing fixed under warranty; but if I can't, local chappie quotes £59 for the job. Cheapest touchscreen laptop is around £500 (which is just about what I paid for this old-timer) We'll soldier on together a while yet !


Danny.

OffshoreSLF
16th Apr 2017, 18:30
Octane (#10465),
This is not the spirit that "Made the Empire Great" !


Danny.

Couldn't agree with you more, Danny!

I remember when my 2 girls were little, and some toy got broken, getting out the tools, and with the assistance of various unguents, spare screws and other sundry "come in handy" bits, getting the said thing working again. After all, that's what Dads do!!

How can the modern child look up to a parent who says, "Just chuck it in the bin and we'll buy a new one"?


However, I must admit defeat the other day. The charger for my battery drill stopped charging. The cable at the plug end looked a bit suspect, so I chopped it off. Bared the end of cables and checked for voltage. Nothing. Had a look at the plug end, and discovered the screws that held the thing together were of a pattern I'd never come across before. After a bit of sawing & filing, I'd managed to construct a tool that would hopefully remove them. Success!

Inside was a little transformer and a few diodes. Checked the output DC. Nothing.

Checked the output from the transformer. Nothing. Sod it, I'm beat!

I do however, have a wee tool to extract non-standard screws, so not all my time was wasted.

MPN11
16th Apr 2017, 18:56
I confess that I regard computery (and telephones and well travelled luggage) as Class C Stores = Consumable Items. :(

andytug
16th Apr 2017, 19:30
Needing to wiggle the plug is often a symptom of a dry/broken solder joint on the socket (attached to the motherboard of the laptop). Problem is you more or less have to dismantle the laptop to get to it....lots of screws and gentle persuading of plastic clips required!

Danny42C
16th Apr 2017, 20:47
Gentlemen !


Thank you all for your interest in my predicament (sans touchscreen I feel I have a leg cut off).


All this is way over my head ! Tuesday morning it's on its way !


Will report progress (don't hold your breath !)


Danny.

Octane
17th Apr 2017, 06:42
Hello Danny,

"This is not the spirit that "Made the Empire Great" !"

In my defense, I have been enduring this problem for about a year!

I had to "twiddle" writing this post.

There is a limit to what one can tolerate, that limit is close to being breached!

What has kept me going is the fact I'm fond of my trusty machine despite its age, it's does all I need and to be honest I'm a bit leery of upgrading to a new device after reading of all the dramas people seem to have with Windows 10?

As andytug points out, complete dismantling of the machine is required to gain access to the rogue section of the motherboard. I have serious doubts the reassembly would be successful. Though I am considering attacking the machine from below with a Dremel. Nothing to lose..!

I shall keep you posted.

Cheers

Octane

ORAC
17th Apr 2017, 08:31
Ah! The days of Bodge, Fixit and Grubscrew.....

Over the years the little corner shops full of old TVs, radios and VCRs with "spares and repair" signs in the windows have been disappearing and being replaced with charity shops. Open one day, closed the next, then the windows filling with dust and children gazing into the gloom inside under shaded hands - until an OXfam or Shelter shop appears in its place.

Had one just down the road from me till about 2 years ago, owner was a widower in his 80s, no family, who had nothing else to do so just kept opening his shop every day and struggled on as sales and repairs vanished as VCRs did the same. Died intestate and the windows went the same way. However, just reopened under new ownership; Afghani or some sort of family and still has much of the same type of stock - vacuum cleaner and washing machine parts etc, as well as an eclectic "Open All Hours" stock of brooms, basins pans etc. Just as well, the street already has 7 different charity shops in it.

I bought an antique Bakelite Bush DAC 90 radio ( well antique to me - made in 1946, Danny doubtless bought the same model new with a lifetime warranty just after the war) and needed to get it fettled, so I researched online for a suitable establishment that performed such arcana in the modern day and age. I located one in South London and made an appointment.

Upon arrival it was a large old Victorian terrace house. Having gained entry I was lead to a workshop full of men in their 70s and 80s wearing brown lab coats and working on a variety of valve radios, televisions and other devices. Soldering irons, valves and other unidentifiable components and windings in cardboard boxes with names such as Bush, Decca, Cossor and Pye in fading colours on the labels and piles of manufacturers repair manuals - all of who were able to discuss wisely the history and development of such things as superheterodyne circuits and the mysteries of triode and pentode valves and who sneered at modern new fangled developments such as FM and DAB.

Two weeks later I collected my lovingly restored radio which sits in my study on top a mahogany filing cabinet beside my desk.

Such places do still exist, though in decreasing numbers. I doubt if any such will exist in years to come for imported laptops......

Welcome To The Radio Workshop - Radio WorkshopRadio Workshop | THE UK?s LEADING VINTAGE RADIO REPAIR AND RESTORATION CENTRE (http://www.radio-workshop.co.uk/)

MPN11
17th Apr 2017, 09:06
Nice post, ORAC, which reminds me ...

As a child/young teen, my parents 'upgraded' to a Roberts portable and I was given the home's enormous wireless for my bedroom. Sadly not one of the ones illustrated on that website, so no positive ID. But it was getting on for 2 ft wide, in a brown [wood?] cabinet full of glowing valves and with a large semi-circular tuning dial on the front. Ah, the days of 'Hilversum', 'Luxembourg', 'Home Service', 'Light Programme' etc. etc.

The was a socket in the back panel, to which was connected a pair of [WW2?] headphones with chamois earpieces. Young MPN11 would settle into bed, plug in the headset [which then stifled the loudspeaker] and get immersed in the thrills of "Lost ... In ... Space" :)

Octane
17th Apr 2017, 10:08
Hello ORAC,

The problem is that in times gone by, things were built to last and were repairable.
That's why my 1967 Mini (souped up :)) is still on the road.
Modern stuff is designed with a limited lifespan in mind...
The plastic bits on my friends expensive European car are starting to look "tatty" for example...

Geriaviator
17th Apr 2017, 12:25
My 1946 Poona memories, now being mined, include an American radio inside a khaki crackle-painted heavy metal case about 18ins x 12 x 12. Daddy said it was a welfare set which he had obtained from US surplus. It had a tuning dial, a volume knob and another mysteriously labelled BAND: SW, MW, LW. At five years old I was very annoyed when I selected BAND and nothing happened ... it took a while for Daddy to explain that military bands were in scarce supply inside US welfare sets.

Danny42C
17th Apr 2017, 16:29
Ah, memories, memories ......


Shortly before War, my folk bought a HMV - massive thing (sounds like MPN11's [#10473] radio). Cost £18/17/6 or thereabouts, which was arm + leg then. Had a "Magic Eye", which sounds like the fine tuner on MPN11's.


Took it with me when I went back in the RAF post-war, sat beside me on seat of Bond, weighed a ton ! God knows what happened to it.


Ah the joys of rigging an aerial wire in the garden, and an earthing spike !

FantomZorbin
18th Apr 2017, 13:00
Danny
Ah the joys of rigging an aerial wire in the garden, and an earthing spike !
Gosh, that brought back a very long forgotten memory of my Dad and I rigging an aerial (plus ceramic insulators) the length of the garden so that I could get a signal to my crystal set. I was chuffed to pieces when it worked!!
Thank you :)

DHfan
18th Apr 2017, 23:57
A mate has taken to repairing and refurbishing old valve radios and amplifiers to keep his mind active in retirement. He recently bought a Murphy radio and complained about the Magic Eye being missing. I'm not certain I'd ever heard of one before although I do have a vague memory of a sort of greenish-yellow light on the front of a radio.
The Magic eye wasn't missing, it was laying in the bottom of the case, and he tells me after fitting new valves and capacitors it works very well.


My granddad worked in a small shop in Watford repairing TVs and radios from the late 40s until he sort of retired at the age of 70 in 1970. I've absolutely no idea how he learnt how to do it, he was a carpenter at Scammell Lorries until the shop owner head-hunted him to change careers.
He supplied all our TVs and radios until he retired, including an old, possibly HMV, valve radio we had for some years.
I was a bit disconcerted on visiting the Science Museum in the very early 60s to see an identical model on display. We were still using ours.
Although I don't remember it - I was very young - apparently the first TV I ever saw, Granddad made. I was told that in typical Granddad style he never finished it to put in a case - it took up three to four feet of the top of the sideboard.

Tengah Type
19th Apr 2017, 09:00
Danny 42C 7 Octane

I had a similar problem with the jack plug to my laptop. The jack was difficult to
fit in the machine. Judicious prodding of the jack with a wooden cocktail stick
removed the crumb, cockroach or whatever, and it now fits properly like as before.

As they say, it is always worth having a poke. http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/evil.gif

Octane
19th Apr 2017, 09:23
Thanks for the tip but I've tried a few different power supplies/ plugs. The problem is definitely within the machine..
As someone has already suggested, it's most likely a dodgy connection on the motherboard..
Still pondering the dremel approach, radical as it may seem...:)

Molemot
19th Apr 2017, 10:04
My Dad made our first TV set, out of old airborne radar sets...these used Philips EF50 valves, and that's a story in itself....
The EF50, the tube that helped to win the War (http://www.dos4ever.com/EF50/EF50.html)
The first programme we saw was the last King's funeral, the picture appearing by magic on a smeary 9" screen. It took several years, and two attempts at cabinet making, before the various chassis were finally contained in a cabinet. Dad's attempt at rivetting the chassis was rapidly replaced by my Aunt Lil, who did a very rapid and professional job of flush rivetting, having spent the War making gun turrets for Lancasters!

Blacksheep
19th Apr 2017, 12:24
As they say, it is always worth having a poke. We rented a colour TV from Rediffusion in the olden days when I was poor underpaid Sergeant. It was prone to lose the picture when a diode on the power supply board overheated. The clue was in where the smoke came from. A Rediffusion repair man arrived (not tony draper) and being informed by Missus B that the fault was "the diode on the power board" insisted on having a poke around the innards. There was a bang and flash and the poor fellow was thrown across the room. "Are you sure you know what you're doing?" asked Missus B. He fled. Another repair man turned up in the afternoon and changed the diode. :)

Danny42C
19th Apr 2017, 13:45
Fantom Zorbin (#10477),
...Gosh, that brought back a very long forgotten memory...
Another of the same: who remembers steam wagons on the roads (and steam-rollers ?) I can still hear the quick "chuff-chuff-chuff", as the roller paced out its "beat". Infuriating things to be stuck behind on a narrow country road.

The steam lorries (Fodens ?) were even more fearsome beasts. (Limited to 20 mph, and just as well) they hauled huge loads. Cabs must've been nice and warm in winter, but hellish in summer.

Nice man took away Danny's laptop plus charger cable this morning, keep fingers crossed. Meanwhile D. going even further round the bend as, for the hundredth time, he pokes at a touchscreen that ain't there !

(Sorry, Mr Moderator, should be in "Nostalgia", but bear with us greybeards, please !)

Wander00
19th Apr 2017, 14:02
Molemot, what a lovely story

Danny42C
19th Apr 2017, 14:21
Wander00 (#10484) and Molemot (#10481),

Seconded ! (Dads in the old days were able to do things like:..."My Dad made our first TV set, out of old airborne radar sets".....)

Recalls the hoary old chestnut: "Adam was the first wireless hobbyist - he built a loudspeaker out of his spare parts !"

('Ware incoming')

ancientaviator62
19th Apr 2017, 14:22
My interest in Radio/radar stemmed from my uncle who built the first TV set I ever saw. If memory serves it was a greenish 9 inch flickering screen (VCR 97 tube ?) in a large wooden cabinet. He had been in the RN and had serviced some of the first radar sets.

Chugalug2
19th Apr 2017, 14:56
TVs, homemade or bought, were way outside the reach of Chugalug minor, but he did get to view one with a 9" screen when visiting his grandparents in Southgate, London. There the afternoon/ evening offerings of the Crystal Palace transmitter (as seen nightly at the start of BBC Television Newsreel) could be partaken. I remember being particularly impressed by a cowboy serial, which I was left alone to enjoy while the grownups did whatever grownups did, because in the inevitable shootout real smoke emanated from the TV! Having looked in to check on me, my Grandfather was less impressed though, quickly pulling the plug on the set and ushering me from the room. The repair man was duly called for to administer his usual magic, and once again the potter's wheel resumed normal operation.

We had practical electronics classes in RAF cadet training, for which we had to provide our own projects. It seemed appropriate therefore that the eponymous magazine was featuring just such a project; a tape recorder that required inter alia a wind-up gramophone motor and an ex-Army No. 38 walkie talkie set. I tracked both down, the first from a junk shop, the second from the local government surplus store that was then in every High Street. The first stage was to rewire the No. 38 set to become an audio amplifier. Alas it never happened. despite much (too much?) soldering and testing not a squeak emerged. Just as well perhaps, because stage 2 was to create a play/record head that required windings on a mu-metal armature. Neither junk shop nor surplus store could oblige with mu-metal and I abandoned the project with some relief, for it was obviously aimed at those far more technically accomplished than I!

Danny42C
19th Apr 2017, 15:34
Chugalug (#10487),

This sort of thing is always best left to the Skilled Man.

As Belloc put it:

"Lord Finchley tried to mend the Electric Light
Himself. It struck him dead: And serve him right!
It is the business of the wealthy man
To give employment to the artisan."

On my Resettlement Course, I was a "brickie" (my hod-carrier a Signals Colonel).

We built a wall ..... It fell down. :{

MPN11
19th Apr 2017, 17:06
My 'Resettlement' consisted of starting to do full-time what I had been doing part-time, as a Secondary Duty, for some years. I assume I logged that as part of my massive "Terminal Leave" package, which ran from August to February :)

DHfan
19th Apr 2017, 17:13
Chugalug.
Surely Alexandra Palace - Ally Pally - for reception in Southgate, not Crystal Palace?

I'd never thought about it but I suppose it's quite obvious there'd be a lot of ex-servicemen with radio and radar experience capable of building a TV at that time.
I still wonder where my granddad, as a carpenter with no military service, got his knowledge.

Wander00
19th Apr 2017, 17:57
As part of the electronics syllabus at the Towers we had to build a superhet radio. Mine worked, but not for long. It burst into flames on my bedside locker which cost me the price of the replacement locker.

mmitch
19th Apr 2017, 18:20
In the early 1950s my Great uncle and aunt lived within a mile of the Chrystal Palace aerial. A 3' length of cable was all the aerial their TV needed. :)
mmitch.

lasernigel
19th Apr 2017, 18:56
As part of the electronics syllabus at the Towers we had to build a superhet radio. Mine worked, but not for long. It burst into flames on my bedside locker which cost me the price of the replacement locker.

That's what I did on my basic electronic course in the Army, though we weren't allowed to keep them. Done in a lab with high lab seats. Instructor used to run a "shock" table on the board. Injecting a signal at an anode with a blocking capacitor, then forgetting said capacitor had charged up. So besides getting a belt you normally fell off your stool as well. Made for quick learning for most, except the winner (not me) who was shocked 11 times. Nervous sort of guy.

Snyggapa
19th Apr 2017, 19:53
Hello ORAC,

The problem is that in times gone by, things were built to last and were repairable.
That's why my 1967 Mini (souped up :)) is still on the road.
Modern stuff is designed with a limited lifespan in mind...
The plastic bits on my friends expensive European car are starting to look "tatty" for example...

I cut my lawn with a lawnmower that is quite substantially older and in better condition than me - a 1959 suffolk punch. Started first pull last week after being in the shed for 6 months. Proper, simple, engineering.

I doubt people will be looking after and repairing 2008 vintage computers in 50 years time (although by that time, more than likely termites will be the dominant species on the planet, again)..

Chugalug2
19th Apr 2017, 21:32
DH fan :-
Surely Alexandra Palace - Ally Pally - for reception in Southgate, not Crystal Palace?
Of course you are right, and I stand corrected. Indeed, it was the only transmitter until replaced by Crystal Palace in the 50's, though it resumed transmissions later as a UHF relay:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandra_Palace_television_station

Oh, and there's a WWII aviation connection also, as it was used to bend the Luftwaffe's Y-Gerat beams during the Blitz. The puny UHF dipoles seen now are a sad reflection of the impressive wire antennae that festooned it in those days, and as featured on the nightly Newsreel as I mentioned above.

It was the "People's Palace" and it is good that it has been restored and still sports its original mast atop one of the towers:-

BBC - The Birth of TV - Ally Pally - History of the BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/historyofthebbc/birth-of-tv/ally-pally)

FantomZorbin
20th Apr 2017, 07:11
mmitch
A 3' length of cable was all the aerial their TV needed
I could see the Crystal Palace aerial from my bedroom window when I was a kid.
When we had a TV installed the aerial man said, grumpily "Why d'you wanna haerial, you're close enough to the mast to get a signal on the bottom of a ****** beer bottle!"
"Daddy what does ****** mean?"

Chugalug2
20th Apr 2017, 13:24
Here's Ally Pally in its prime:-

amgzdqbdsHQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amgzdqbdsHQ

Great lead story, and purely coincidental I hasten to add (did I mention that we've been hosting the Flying Scotsman loco at the Bluebell in the last week? No? Well I have now! :ok:

Good tune isn't it? Girls in Grey by Charles Williams and dedicated to the wartime Women's Junior Air Corps that became the Girls Venture Corps Air Cadets, so no thread drift therefore! He also composed the themes for Dick Barton (Devil's Gallop), Jennings at School (The Old Clockmaker), and the Potter's Wheel interlude (The Young Ballerina)

Molemot
20th Apr 2017, 15:34
Our home made telly grew as the years went by...first it got a second channel when ITV started, then the screen size went up gradually, as broken larger devices were obtained and repaired, ending at 19" which was all the cabinet would take! I made my first wireless receiver at the age of 8, listening to "Journey into Space" in bed... and it was the Workshop Radio for decades until replaced by an FM shop bought model to receive the very disappointing Jazz FM.
Once the bug is implanted, it never goes away fully... I was travelling south on the French canals in 1981 when the Captain's Wife wanted to watch the Royal Wedding. We all ended up in an hotel in Dijon...the TV lounge was crowded to overflowing...and we settled down to watch. It was in black and white....I peered at the set, and there was a logo involving the three primary colours, red, green and blue. Hmmmmm. So I strode to the set and biffed it with my clenched fist.......TECHNICOLOR!!! Or, at least, SECAM. The room burst out in spontaneous applause and my glass was rapidly refilled.....

MPN11
20th Apr 2017, 16:13
Our TVs also grew bigger and more colourful. More than 2 channels, too! Now we have these incredibly cheap HD flatscreen things, and Sky channels up the ying-yang ... and there's atill bu66er all to watch* :)

* Apart from an endless loop tape of Fools and Horses, As Time Goes By, Keeping Up Appearances :(

sannatuu
20th Apr 2017, 16:18
Pulse 1 & sannatuu:

Sannatuu, I think we're dealing withe same man - one born in the Durham area on 18 June 1921 and who died towards the end of 1971 around Gosport. If your partner thinks that might be him, let's get together to see how much more we can establish together.

First of all, thank you all so much for your info regarding George Sproates..!

Secondly but most importantly – Pulse1, I am so terribly sorry to hear about Frank! It does sound like he was blessed with a brilliant neighbour and friend who could make sure his story was voiced.

To wrap up my enquiries about George I finally managed to talk to the rest of the family to get a few more bits of information. George did die in ’71 (my late ’60 was slightly off) and according to his daughters he had a close friend called Frank who was the godfather to his eldest daughter! The family lost contact after George died and were sad to hear of Frank’s passing. In terms of the info from Frank the only anomaly I could find was that George was based in Episkopi in Cyprus and not in Akrotiri. I think this is probably enough to say that we are talking about the same man.

George’s family have fond memories of that time in Cyprus, however they do not have much information or stories about his time training to be a navigator (with Frank) or during the war.

For this info I would be very grateful and welcome all you can find but I think my takeaway here is to grasp the opportunity to ask questions while there is still time..

Thank you again all !

Sanna

ICM
21st Apr 2017, 08:32
Sannatuu: Thanks for coming back on this - and I'm now certain we were dealing with the same chap. I've found a bit more since the last exchange and I'd hoped we might continue offline to investigate George's postwar career. I have just tried to send you my personal email address via the PM system but was unable to do so. I can't say whether you were blocked by choice or by the system - I've a feeling there's a rule that you can't use PMs until you have posted a minimum number of times, but I can't find it right now! But I'm sure we'll come up with something.

pulse1
21st Apr 2017, 15:23
Sanna,

Thank you for your kind words, largely undeserved I think.

It is interesting how this amazing thread takes little twists and turns along the way and now, thanks to you, we have discovered more about the link between Frank and George Sproates. I have established that Frank's daughter Jane would quite like to renew her links with George's family who she remembers well. Before George's untimely death she met with his family on several occasions and I believe that Frank would have been delighted to know that his story, so reluctantly told, provided the stimulus to restore the links between the families.

It seems that you cannot receive PMs but you may be able to send them. If you can, please let me have some contact details and I will pass them to Jane.

The reference to Akrotiri was probably an assumption made either by Frank or myself. We just knew that he was stationed in Cyprus.

I am afraid that I cannot add much to the story about their common experience during their training in the RAF. I know that they were both sent to Navigation School after successfully going solo in Tiger Moths and they were both very disappointed to be taken off the Pilot course. In those early days Frank was convinced that George was destined for a career on the stage and, on his return from 4 years or so as a POW, he was most surprised to discover that George was now well established into a career as an RAF officer and a gentleman. With some amusement, he further attributed that success to George's considerable skills as an actor.

Another poster, Walter603, served with 272 Sqdn and he may remember something of George's life after Frank was taken prisoner. Might be worth a try.