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rmventuri
13th May 2009, 06:05
Reg,
One of the historians at sqdn 51 would like you to contact them so they can keep you informed abound events and reunions. His email is [email protected] ([email protected]) at website index (http://www.51squadron.com/)

Regards,
Rodger

rmventuri
13th May 2009, 06:16
Kevin,
Ok will look forward to what I receive from the Candaian archives. Doug's parents both lived into their late 90's. Yes there is much to do for the Milliken clan.

Can you tell me if it is difficult to get a copy of the Snaith operations log for an entire year from the UK National Archives?

Regards,
Rodger

Icare9
13th May 2009, 07:11
Rodger:
I'm sorry, but I don't know. I'm not an archivist or historian and am just an interested amateur doing what I can to help move this to what I feel will be a successful conclusion in identifying where HR732 crashed and what became of the crew.

I'd suggest you ask the 51 Sqdn historians if they can help, or there is a website here: WThe Wartime Memories Project - RAF Snaith (http://www.wartimememories.co.uk/airfields/snaith.html) that may be able to help move this forward. There is a poster on PPRuNe by the nom de plume of exscribbler who seems to have an interest in Snaith, might be worth a long shot, if he doesn't reply directly to this.

I'd have to throw your appeal to anyone else participating in this thread as to whether these records still exist or if they can be accessed.

Can anyone help Rodger get these records?
I responded before checking all the websites where have asked for help on this.
One helpful response gives this website which I hope will help towards what you want.
The National Archives | The Catalogue | Research Guides (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/rdleaflet.asp?sLeafletURL=http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/leaflets/ri2050.htm&lBack=-1&j=1)
Thanks to Andy H at feldgrau.net

cliffnemo
13th May 2009, 16:02
Heaton Park A.C.D.C has been mentioned a few times on this thread , and last mentioned by Peter so as I recently came across the original booklet that was issued on arrival, thought I would scan one or two pages. It contains the usual C/Os welcome , what do we do here ? Places out of bounds. Lights out time (22.30) etc.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/HEATONP1189.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/HEATONP2190.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/HEATONP3191.jpg



http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/HEATONP4192.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/HEATONP4193.jpg

cliffnemo
13th May 2009, 16:16
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/HEATONP6195.jpg

Yarpy
13th May 2009, 17:40
. . . and you won't have time to get a drink on your way to the station or give a parting kiss to some of the numerous blonde jobs you'll find waiting for you at the station . . .

Love it! Just imagine an offical pamphlet with that kind of politically incorrect comment these days. I was born forty years too late.

regle
13th May 2009, 20:33
Many thaks to you and Neil . I am a longstanding member of the very active and well run 51 Sqdn. Association so am always "au courant" but thanks all the same. Unfortunately the spirit is willing but the flesh is ever decreasingly weak. Regle

pulse1
13th May 2009, 20:57
I know your fantastic story hasn't reached there yet but I wondered if I could ask you a quick question about Tarrant Rushton.

Shortly after I joined FRL in 1966, I started to learn to fly in a DH82 at Old Sarum. I needed a flying helmet with a working mic and earphones so went up to Tarrant to see what I could scrounge from the Safety Section.

I was shown a cardboard box full of old helmets and told to help myself. Expecting that the best I would do was to find one of the blue cloth helmets I was delighted to find a really good leather one. 40 years later I still have this helmet and it has two names of previous owners written in it. The names are J Kent and M J Baker. I wondered if these names mean anything to you.

I am really looking forward to your story about the Tarrant days.

ancientaviator62
14th May 2009, 07:51
cliffnemo,
wonderful publication, how different it all was then. Is it possible for you to continue your Pilot/F/E story. I have a relative who trained as an F/E just in time for the Berlin Airlift and he says that your training seems identical to his. Due to a burglary and fire years ago he does not have any notes or even his log books so I print off your stories for him. Please keep it up, if possible.

regle
14th May 2009, 13:44
I am sorry but the names in thr helmet don't ring any bells. Those helmets were very, very good and I wore mine during all my ops.
Berlin Airlift days coming up after India and I will try and get down to it. In the meantime anyyone interested in Tarrant Rushton and Flight Refuelling should try and get hold of this book entitled "In Cobham's Company" Sixty years of Flight Refuelling Limited. By Colin Cruddas, ISBN No.0 95244880 7 It is a fine book and very well illustrated. Sir Alan Cobham was a famous pre-war Aviation pioneer and founder of Flight Refuelling Ltd. now Cobhams.Thank you again everyone for the great greetings. Regle

cliffnemo
14th May 2009, 15:46
YARPY . YES people did see us off at railway stations. Below is a pic of Ponca City 'Railroad station' Have printed it before ,but think it disappeared, and was replaced by a notice "removed by Photobucket"
. Found out later, remove photos from Photobucket and they won't show on PPRUNE.
Bill Davies and me posing.
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/poncastation107.jpg

Ancientaviator I will do my best to complete, and thanks for the encouragement. Nice to know you are helping an 'old un'

I noticed in the Heaton Park welcome booklet. we were paid,when an A.C 2 3s (three shillings) a day. Think I have said earlier 3/6 (three shillings and sixpence)a day. Probably wouldn't buy a packet of Capstan Full Strength and two pints of ale. That might be why we drank Devonshire sweet cider, it was cheaper.

rmventuri
16th May 2009, 06:32
Reg,
Do you recogonise anyone in this photo taken in '42 or '43? (hopefully I updloaded this phot properly??)

Rodger


http://millikenreunion.googlegroups.com/web/DougsCrew%20Doug%201st%20from%20left.jpg?hl=en&gsc=RiaxhBYAAACOM_6EkevkdWo-Qtx9qbsviZdYpI8bFqLfSPVWzjihew

ormeside
16th May 2009, 17:16
Further to Heaton Park. Most of us were billetted with families in the local area who were paid a pittance. Ken Stott who was in the same form at school with me and who volunteered with me , we stayed together for a year. He returned to Canada and became a Navigator and was on ops before I returned from Texas. ( Our pay, after ITW and "promotion" to LAC was 7/3 per day less national insurance. When we got our Wings, pay as Sergeants was 13/6, after a year we became Flt. Sgts at 15/- and a further year Warrant Officer at 17/6 ) I remember that the food at Heaton Park was very good, or maybe we were hungry. Anyway Ken and I very regularly bought fish and chips for our Mrs Kenderdine and her son who was an apprentice at Avro's. The film people made a film called "Journey Together" at HP and because it was a fine summer we had to parade in our gas capes and be watered with fire hoses. Ormeside?bravolima!!:)

regle
16th May 2009, 21:39
I don't see any photo, Rodger. I wouldn't know anyone in 1942. I arrived at Snaith in July 1943 so might , I say might, know someone but it is a very long time ago (66 years ! ). All the best, Reg

rmventuri
17th May 2009, 08:06
Reg,
Second try to upload crew photo. I know its a long shot that you may be able to identify any of these chaps but you never know. Doug is first from left. Photo was taken sometime between July '43 and Dec '43.
Best Regards
Rodger

Update September 2010
Jack O'Dowda is first from left in the photo. Doug not in this photo - not Doug's crew. A few more posts down identifies the crew.

http://millikenreunion.googlegroups.com/web/Crew%20Doug%201st%20from%20left.JPG?hl=en&gsc=5tuOQAsAAABQ0UCeDOF9ArdCDNLFMdnv

green granite
17th May 2009, 10:11
rmventuri re photo uploads look at: http://www.pprune.org/spectators-balcony-spotters-corner/203481-image-posting-pprune-guide.html

cliffnemo
18th May 2009, 15:39
BUSY, BUSY, BUSY. , and the number of jobs awaiting ,increases daily.

Yep, busy, had my 1971 Beetle M.O.T. d last week , it passed.. Now have M.O.T for my beach buggy on Thursday. Talk about pre-flight checks.
Having said that, it reminds me of GOOSEQUILL’S post saying the checking of the portable oxy bottles was the duty of the pilot and flight engineer, and wonder why my visit to the Elsan, and problem with my oxy supply wasn’t discussed at great length on our return. I am sure it was decided the mistake had been made by our usually highly respected members of the ‘ubendum ,we mendum‘ fraternity.. Consequently I will search for my notes on pre-flight checks as I know I have made mistakes but don’t think this was one of them. (my old aunt Kate, always said “The man who never made a mistake,, never made nowt “ ..
Before I start my search GOOSEQUILL , I think the question on the unstoppable Merlin was a hypothetical one , for if the crew entered the aircraft forgetting to set the ground to flight switch to flight, then apart from other things no lights , intercom ,or radios would work, and on start up I think the ‘erk’ on the ‘trolley accs’ would notice the difference, as our four twelve volt batteries would not be helping. Pity I didn’t think of that at the time , might have received more marks.

I have now found the notes on pre-flight check, which I will reproduce below. Think they exonerate the accused your honour. For instance the notes do say check the oxy bottles and fire axes, but no instructions to check pressure. I think we were instructed to check that they were present, with no reference to pressure. Any ideas REGLE.? However , later notes do say , check pressure of emergency air, and press: of nitro system. You may see below that item 12 states F/E switches on ground to flight switch, on entry.
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/CHECKOXY1205.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/CHECKOXY2206.jpg

PAUSE TO BREW MUG OF TEA, AND LIGHT PIPE.

ANCIENTAVIATOR. (That’s a misnomer ’ thoos nowt but a lad’) Would you ask your flight engineer friend how long his course lasted, our P.F.E course was two months , concentrated, but think he would have to spend much more time on learning to map read, swim , life save, learn to fly straight and level, air to air gunnery, and air to ground gunnery. Where did he get training to fly a Lanc straight and level ?

Now for a laugh, in an otherwise miserable world ‘YOU are going to be a PILOT.’

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/FPAGEWANTTOBEPILOT199.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/PILOT1207.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/PILOT2202.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/PILOT3203.jpghttp://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/PILOT4204.jpg


PHEW !!!!

cliffnemo
18th May 2009, 15:46
Are you using Photobucket to post pics? If so, P.M me.There are some instructions on use which I think require clarifying, there is a button to click which will show you your pic, before you post.
Cliff.

rmventuri
19th May 2009, 06:25
Another try to upload - thanks to those sending tips. Crew photo taken between july 4 '43 (I now have the snaith ops log showing Doug was stationed at Snatih in July '43) and dec 4 '43

Update September 2010
pbeach joined the thread (see post 1848) and was able to identify the crew as his grandfather was one of them. Photo below taken at Snaith now known to be JN883 LK-A flight group C. Crew from left to right Jack O'Dowda (UG) RCAF, Ernie Herrald (P) RAF, Bill Higgs (E) RAF, Dick Sibley RAF (RG), Tom Jones RAF (N), Alf Kell RAF (B) and Stan Gibbon RAF (W)

Doug and Jack met while training at B&G School in Mossbank in 1942. They must have been good friends as Doug's photo album has several pictures of Jack while they were at Mossbank.

http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt245/rmventuri/DougsCrewDoug1stfromleft.jpg

ancientaviator62
19th May 2009, 09:04
cliffnemo,
the 'ancientaviator' tag was given to me by my grandson after he read the poem about the 'Ancient Mariner'. From his perspective I am ancient, but as Einstein said 'it is all relative'. I will speak to the ex F/E as soon as I can and get back to you.
Keep the info coming.
Best wishes

cliffnemo
19th May 2009, 10:12
HI RMVENTURI,

Perfect picture, perfect size, but don't delete from photobucket, or it will be replaced on pprune by a box saying removed by photobucket. I learned the hard way , as you may see on some of my previous posts.

regle
19th May 2009, 13:27
BINGO ! Good picture and the second chap from the left is definitely Flt/Lt. "Ernie", R. Herrald who was deputy Flight Commander of "C" Flight, 51 SQdn at Snaith under S/Ldr. "Charlie Porter during my stay there at Snaith July '43-Jan.44. He survived the war but died a few years ago as did Charlie Porter, It is quite possible that it was not his crew and that he was flying Second Dicky but not very. He was a Scot and a very good chap. Contact with the 51 Sqdn. Association (Try them c/o RAF Waddington, Lincs.) might bring further details from someone. At least you have a name to go on with. Best of luck. PS That must have been Ernie's crew as there are only seven of them. I have his signature, in my logbook, as deputy flight commander for my Sept. '43 monthly summary. Hopefully you can go on from here, Regle.

regle
19th May 2009, 23:02
Incredibly today I was rummaging through my old RAF documents and I found an old ,battered and very fragile "Battle Order" from Nov.19th. 1943 for 51 Sqdn. It is the only one that I have ever saved and was from the list of crews designated to take part in Operations for that night and was posted on all Mess Notice Boards when the Squadron Commander had received the details of the night's target from Group...4 Group in 51's case. This one was from the Sgts. Mess although I don't know how I got it as I was already commissioned by then.
I was amazed when I found that your Uncle's crew was included ,rmventuri, and was ; Capt.P/O A.J.Salvage,P/O Baker etc. just as you gave them all in your request. I also have all their numbers if you require them. Your Uncle was listed as R139843 F/Sgt.D. Milliken R/G , the R showing that he was RCAF. There was an extra number to the crew in a Sgt. R:J Beaver who was , unusually, listed as 2nd. Pilot. This was very uncommon but was sometimes done when a new Pilot joined the Squadron to give him a bit of a clue as to what was going on. As a tribute to your Uncle's crew I can tell you that , usually only a very good crew were selected when this was done to give the "Sprog" a better chance.
I am on the same Battle order and also, Sqdn. Ldr. Eno who was the subject of a previous thread in this fine Forum that we are fortunate to share.
The target that night was Leverkusen which was a real "bete noir" in Bomber Command's history as we had been to the town in the "Happy Valley" of the Ruhr a few times and had never really found it as it was always 10/10th. cloud (8/8ths came later) and it never got really bombed. Leverkusen was the site of a famous Chemical Factory IM or something like that... IFM ? and is fairly near Cologne.. This one was not to be any better as my report reads "Bombed on ETA & scattered T.I.'s (PFF Target Indicators). 10/10ths. cloud. Very heavy Flak in area and very heavy predicted Flak going out over Cologne (Why did we go over Cologne.. God knows). Much difficulty getting U/C down at base , 6hrs55mins all night flying. (It came back to me when I checked this letter...IG Farben was the well known Factory)
I am sure that your Uncle and I shared the hostile skies together many times so that gives us a common factor which I appreciate. If you give me your address by private mail I will gladly send you a copy of the Battle Order which ,although fragile, is quite legible. I hope to get cracking with some more stories soon.... We are certainly getting something to do and to think about these days what with Cliff's terrific drawings and "gen" and those evocative RAF propaganda leaflets or booklets which were not at all bad with a lovely lack of official jargonese and some very true assertions. Keep 'em coming and it helps immeasureably,when you comment or ask questions as it gives one the personal touch which has, for example , been brought out in the replies to your queries, rm, All the best ,Regle.
.

rmventuri
20th May 2009, 00:58
Reg, what an incredible find! Yes I would very much like a copy of the Battle Order - I left you my address via pm. Reg, looks like you have confirmed what we thought re the photo not being the crew of HR732. Because information can be so sketchy going back more than sixty fives years I am trying to pull together at least two or three data points on any important piece of information - Now we know Ernie Herrald in the photo, HR732 Sgt William Hamilton is not in the photo, HR732 Edwards (3rd from left - I don't have the crew list in on this computer so don't remember first name) is in the photo. Still waiting for some of the other crew descendants to see if they can ID any of these chaps. With this information I'm going to review the Snaith ops logs to see if I can get the crew names. I'm waiting on another crew photo that my mother has to post in the near future.

There were several other pictures taken during that same photo op. One pic has four chaps in front of the seven air crew. Would the four be the ground crew dedicated to the maintenance/repair of the aircraft? I'm curious how large a bomber squadron was - from pics on the internet I am estimating about 200-250 crew, with seven flight crew and four ground crew that would mean somewhere around 20 to 25 bomber aircraft in the squadron. I guess if mosquitoes were in the same squadron the number would go up. Does that make sense?

Best regards,
Rodger

rmventuri
20th May 2009, 01:10
Forgot to add that I did receive Doug's file from the Canadian Library and Archives - 207 pages of which about 40 are duplicates. They also said there were photographs in the file I need to separately order (does anyone know what these would be?). I have not gone thru in detail however looks like there is no information to help find a crash or burial site. Reg, it does contain the MIA crew list with their services numbers - so I do have that thanks. I was surprised it only took three weeks to get this file from the gov't - lots of interesting stuff in the file - they kept a lot of detail each of you (big brother is watching). Who knows what was filtered out - no mention of the A. Salvage wedding ring. If anyone is interested in the file contents let me know and I'll post a summary and few scanned documents that might be of interest. Cheers Rodger

rmventuri
20th May 2009, 07:17
Reg,
Attaching another photo with "high level moustaches" as I call them or posssible senior ground crew personal? Was this entire photo shoot a photo op? I went thru the Snaith ops logs and could not see Doug flying with a Pilot Herrald (although I did see Herrand and his crew - none of which overlapped with HR732). I'm guessing the four younger chaps are the ground crew aircraft support? The plot thickens.

http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt245/rmventuri/dougscrew4Groundcrew-1.jpg?t=1242803168

What kind of car is that?
http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt245/rmventuri/dougscrew1.jpg?t=1242803497

regle
20th May 2009, 13:23
I have posted your copies today. I had to make it two crews less due to length of Battle Order but the top crew and reverse were both illegible. As I was flying that night , with the Flight Commander , S/Ldr. Charlie Porter, replacing my own Bomb Aimer, Ernie Herrald , as his Deputy, would not fly as well so did not figure in the Battle Order. This is interesting from the thread point of view as it shows the practice of the Pilot being the Captain, irrespective of rank and I flew , several times, ith S/Ldrs. and equivalent in my crew when I was not even commissioned. I have never heard of any time when this became a problem but I still think that the crew spirit could not be maintained on the ground due to the segregation of ranks in their various Messes and , above all, their sleeping Quarters. It was against regulations to mix ranks in Pubs etc. but was rarely, if ever, observed on Operational Stations.
If you look closely at the photo of the ground crew you will see that the 3rd. from the left has the three stripes of a Sgt., the last on the extreme right has , just visible, the two stripes of a corporal, and the capless one kneeling, has a propellor of a L.A.C. (LeadingAircraftsman).
The others, despite their obviously older age, have no insignia, so would be A.C's and there you have a complete Ground crew of an Aircraft comprising Riggers, Fitters, etc. The Armourers and Electricians etc. would be called upon seperately when needed but the Ground Crew would be responsible for the servicing and D.I's(Daily Inspections) of their own ..and sacred to them..."Kites".
I hope that this is of interest to you all, Regle

airborne_artist
20th May 2009, 14:59
What kind of car is that?

looks very much like an Austin Seven Pearl cabriolet - see here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Austin_Seven_Pearl_Cabriolet_1935.jpg)

regle
20th May 2009, 15:18
Airborne artist, You forestalled me by about 15mins. I am sure that you are right. I owned a Ruby Saloon of that "ilk". (Ask Grandad)! It cost me £45 with a full tank of "Ethyl" thrown in ! That took a lot of earning at 13 and 6d, per diem. 20 shillings to the pound, 12 pence to the shilling. How did we cope with the Maths.? Very well ! Regle

airborne_artist
20th May 2009, 15:35
I owned a Ruby Saloon

My Dad had a 1937 Ruby Saloon in the late 60s or early 70s! Bought and sold it for £25.00 as I recall.

rmventuri
21st May 2009, 06:54
Reg your right on the mark again. I looked up the nov 19 '43 raid on Leverkusen in the snaith ops log and the 8th crew member is listed last as;

Sgt Beaver R. (2nd P)

So much for your memory going!!

Regards
Rodger

clear to land
23rd May 2009, 09:46
Back to the top, am thinking maybe this one should be a sticky!

Icare9
24th May 2009, 15:55
Regle and all
Just back from hols.
I note that no one has yet commented on the Squadron markings on rmventuri photo's being LK, which marks the Halifax as a C Flight aircraft, as MH was the Squadron code for the rest of 51 Squadron.
If you haven't yet watched the Nightbomber video, then each RAF heavy bomber station generally had 2 Squadrons operating from it, each with about 18 to 20 aircraft and somewhere around 3,000 personnel to keep it functioning, not just aircrew.
The photos with the car seem to show a code of MH-A, which was the code on HR782 also lost the same night on the Leipzig raid and as it has Sgt Bondett who was a PoW after being shot down, then no doubt this was the groundcrew for HR782.
If there are any photos with a code of MH-Y or if HR732 can be seen by the tail, then that would be tremendous news.

cliffnemo
27th May 2009, 11:08
Oh well, back to St Athan, after an excellent weekend with a visit to to a military show and happy that I have now put my 1971 Beetle and my beach buggy successfully through the M.O.T. Should be able to concentrate now.

Final exams near , we studied hard and played hard,. As well as Saturday nights in Tiger Bay one of our airmen devised a scheme to visit Gloucester for the weekend ,at minimum cost. Gloucester was the home of R.A.F records , ‘manned’ mainly by W.A.A.Fs., and was recommended as an ideal R & R. place. . I can’t remember now exactly how it worked , but involved one airman travelling to Gloucester and purchasing platform tickets. These tickets were normally used by non travelling people to enter the platform to wave goodbye to friends and relatives., and only cost about one penny. We then purchased platform tickets at St Athan and got on the train, An excellent weekend was enjoyed, but I won’t tell you any more, as we don’t know who is reading this.. I must point out again that we were all basically honest people, but at that time it was a case of ‘all’s fair in love and war’.

Final exam time arrived , and I can remember moving from classroom to classroom and completing written tests on all the subjects we had studied. The final test was I think, what we called a V.V., (face to face ?) I answered the questions correctly until it came to the final question. I was asked “what do Amps X volts equal?” My mind became blank, and even though it was ‘page one of the book’ I couldn’t remember the answer, and said so. I was told to go, but as I reached the door, I suddenly remembered the answer, and said Watts. Good man said the officer and off I trotted. After this we received our results, and I found I had passed with 78% marks.

Back to the dreaded Harrogate, more standing in train corridors, sitting on kit bag when there was enough room, and eating our rations (N.A.A.F.I rock buns) on the way. We could only fill our mugs with tea, when the train stopped at a station.

After a short stay at Harrogate, I was posted to Langar, and the following day ‘crewed up’. This consisted of milling around in a large hangar , full of all trades, and talking to all and sundry , with the object of forming a crew of seven. When this was achieved the seven men reported to an officer and their names taken. Some time later we were posted to ‘heavy con’ at Bottesford, for about two months, and which was just across the main Nottingham to Grantham road.

Whilst looking through my notes, I came across the item produced below, which shows, amongst other things oleo leg measurements .pressures, and suggesting the use of a jack.Jacks were not included in our large green tool bag, so I can only conclude this reinforees my previous view that we had to know how to service the aircraft on other airfields, or the far East ?. I have either forgotten or otherwise was never told.



http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/OLEO1212.jpg


http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/OLEO2214.jpg

APROPOS NOTHING AT ALL.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/DOCS2210.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/DOCS1209.jpg

Wiley
27th May 2009, 12:37
Gawd Cliff, that Airman's Pay Book...

It was unchanged in my days in blue, 20+ years after yours. God only knows how many of them I signed over the years on (as the Airmen so quaintly put it) "the day the eagle shat''.

I suppose these days it's all done by direct credit to the Airman's bank account.

Union Jack
27th May 2009, 12:53
" .... what we called a V.V., (face to face ?) "

Cliff - Purely as punctuation in this wonderful thread, it seem almost certain that your VV was a "Viva Voce" examination, literally a "live voice" in Latin.

Long may Regle, you, et al (to stick with Latin) keep it coming.

Salaams

Jack

PS Good news about the MOTs - always cheers one up no end!:ok:

Icare9
27th May 2009, 16:52
Thanks again for these memories Cliff, great to hear all the aspects that living in wartime meant. Good news on the MOT's too! Look forward to see you tearing about the dunes!!

regle
27th May 2009, 19:28
One of my Father's ( He was a Signals Officer serving at the same time as me and my wife ) favourite sayings, " Great big fleas have smaller fleas upon their backs to bite 'em. The smaller fleas have tiny fleas and so "Ad Infinitum".
I am having rather a rough time at the moment but hope to be well enough soon to carry on with the "Saga ". Regle

kevmusic
27th May 2009, 19:53
Best wishes for a speedy recovery to A1, Regle. Your fans need you! :ok:

Union Jack
27th May 2009, 22:48
Amen to that - many people thinking of you Reg and wishing you well.:ok:

Jack

TommyOv
28th May 2009, 19:47
Best wishes Reg! Looking forward to your next installment!

Sanitas bona! (to stick with the Latin theme...)

Icare9
28th May 2009, 22:48
Regle:
Do you have anyone close who looks after you daily?
I'm a bit concerned, maybe AndyI999 could clarify?
Sorry to be a worry wart, but there are a lot here who are concerned for both you and Cliff. You simply can't leave your stories unfinished!!
You know my email and PM details, if either of you need help, then I think we'd do our best to help in any way.

Weheka
28th May 2009, 23:01
Hope you get well again soon regle, and back into "action".

Just reading an interesting story of two kiwi pilots shot down in Halifaxes within minutes of each other on 12-13 June. One pilot was the only survivor, the other got out with the rest of his crew. One flew from Snaith with 51 Squadron, Charlie Chambers, on just his 3rd op with the Squadron, previously both had been on OTU Whitleys on secondment to Coastal Command. Must have been a few weeks before you arrived at 51 Squadron regle?

Apparently they were shot down by the same fighter, 22 yr old Hans-Heinz Augenstein ( Hally pilots 22 and 23 yrs old ) he got a third one from 10 Squadron on the same flight, no survivors.

He had 46 bombers to his credit when shot down and killed by a Mosquito in Dec 1944.

cliffnemo
30th May 2009, 16:12
Regle. May things soon return to normal, and your most welcome posts be resumed soon. Excused boots chit in post.

ICARE, your concern is appreciated, and will certainly bear it in mind. However in my case, I am very fortunate I still have family and relatives , who would be here at the ‘drop of a hat’ if requested.

UNIONJACK. Thanks for that. The nearest I got to Latin was the book reproduced below. This was of great assistance to our import/export business Hemswell / Naples /Hemswell, to be described later (I hope)

Insert book
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/ITALIANBOOK217.jpg



ANCIENT AVIATOR, & TOW. Help . Require a bit of input from you aircrew friends.( Is that vicariously ?)




Searching my records for items on Bottesford, I came across a letter (1994) from John (ex Halton app, and pilot), which I read, and considered it could be of some interest, so reproduce two of the pages ( not consecutive) below. The reference to ‘elderly gentlemen, ‘ seems far nicer than O.A.P., and reminds me of some of the stories he has told me about ex Halibag pilots sitting in the Elvington Halifax, pilots seat. Also reminds me of the story he told me about taking a flat sheet of Perspex to the N.A.A.F.I , and heating it in the oven, until it became pliable enough to form an astrodome.
Insert two pages
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/JHON2216.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/JHON1215.jpg

Insert pic of John.
Pic of John.http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/img014.jpg
John on my 250cc New Imperial, on Scarboro race course, must be pre-war as there is no blackout mask on the headlamp, and he is not wearing L.A.C’s propeller. I am sure John doesn't mind me reproducing the above ,as we did discuss the matter some time ago.

Should be watching the Cup Final , but never did enjoy watching other people do things.

Icare9
30th May 2009, 16:36
Ah! The famous golden rivet!
Glad to see you back Cliff and that all is well and that family at hand.
We are fast approaching the anniversary of when this thread was first posted.
Did anyone ever think it would be one of the most popular on PPRuNe?

Perhaps a fitting salute would be to enshrine it as a sticky, perhaps combined as a D Day tribute?

Well, Everton came second, boo hoo, only thing they have is the record for the fastest goal

regle
31st May 2009, 18:10
The small village of Juhu, where we had our first taste of living in India, had it's own airfield those days. A tiny runway about six hundred yards long served the Piper Cubs from the flying club there. You can imagine the surprise when a brand new, giant Super Constellation actually succeeded in landing on the miniscule runway. Unfortunately Santa Cruz's main runway and Juhu's only landing strip were in line and the unfortunate, but brilliant Lockheed delivery Pilot had lined up on Santa Cruz and delivered Air India's latest acquisition to the wrong address. The whole aeroplane had to be dismantled and taken by road to Santa Cruz where it was put together again, as there was no way that it could take off from Juhu.
My contract with Air India was nearing it's end and I was approached by one of the many Companies that had sprung up in the newly independent India. The Americans had left DC3's and C47's all over India and these were seized by many Presidents of banks and quite a few Maharajahs. They then proceeded to form their own airlines and were always on the lookout for pilots. I eventually joined one of them who had a better reputation than the others. This time I was to really be a Captain and not an Instructor.
I must add that I have exceedingly fond memories of Air India who were a splendid company. I received nothing but kindness and consideration from such people as the incredible founder, J.R.D. Tata, Chief Instructor Biramji, the two Gazdas amongst others far too numerous to mention .
The annual pilgrimage of devout pilgrims to Mecca....The Hadj...was a lucrative source of revenue to the many airlines participating.
Still using the old workhouse Dakota we would fly empty from Bombay to Aden via a small Island called Masirah. It was a RAF base with twelve airmen and a Flying Officer C.O. The entire station, all thirteen of them , would turn out when we landed to refuel. They would ogle the Stewardess, if there was one, as there were no women on the island. The big thing for them was to show us a tomato plant which was surrounded by a barbed wire fence. We were told that it was the only plant on the Island and was constantly guarded by anyone unfortunate enough to be on "Jankers".
From Masirah we would fly on to Aden to pick up our passengers and then fly them on to Jeddah which was the nearest we were allowed to get to the Holy City of Mecca. The passengers were very interesting. They would file out to the aircraft carrying all their possessions, some of them on their heads and others with string bags, shopping bags and brown paper parcels.
Once, after landing at Aden, to pick up our passengers, I returned to the aeroplane to find a huge crowd of people ,some of them in the plane and others trying, vainly , to get in. There were people sitting in the aisle, on other passenger's knees, on suitcases together with people standing in the aisle beside the thirty seats that had been squeezed into what was , normally a twenty-one seat aeroplane. There was no way that I could even reach the cockpit and I soon found the local Agent who began crying with rage when I told him that, no way , was I going to take any more than the thirty seated passengers. "But Sahib, every Captain takes the extra people and we will share the money " was his outraged plea. There was near rioting when it became clear that I meant what I said. Once airborne on one of those trips I was startled to find that , whilst cruising along at about 7,000ft. the nose suddenly went up and I had to trim like mad to keep control. The Radio Officer told me that he would investigate and returned very quickly to tell me that a group of the women had gathered in the back and were cooking lunch over a naked Primus flame.
I flew fairly regularly from Bombay to Nairobi and quite enjoyed the different sort of life that I was now leading but Dora was pregnant and the heat of the small apartment getting us all down. Accommodation on the ships sailing to the U.K. was well nigh impossible to obtain as thousands of people were leaving due to the virtual state of war that had sprung up from the emerging independent Pakistan and India.
On New Year's Eve 1948 we had a few people for drinks in our apartment. One of them turned out to be the Captain of the S.S. Stratheden, which was sailing for the U.K. next day. He had left his Wife in our "Pension" whilst he went on to Australia and had called to pick her up for the return journey to England.
I said to him , half jokingly " I wish that we were sailing with you , tomorrow ". He replied "If you really mean it then I can fix it." I turned everyone out of the flat where we had just made our New Year greetings, and we started packing. Next morning we bought the classic tin steamer trunks, sold our beautiful Packard for the equivalent of £25 and were installed on the "Stratheden " when it sailed on January 1st.1949
We had no winter clothes for ourselves or the children but the first port of call was Port Said. We entered the harbour in total darkness at about two in the morning and then, suddenly, everything was lit in a blaze of lights and all the shops were open and the huge department store of Simon Aerts supplied us with all the neccessary clothes including two gorgeous camel hair coats for the children. They were Peter and Linda's pride and joy, survived many years and were handed on until they became heirlooms. They were identical sizes but Peter had had a nosebleed so his coat was always the one "with blood on the lining"
The six weeks voyage was great fun. The food was magnificent and there were fancy dress parties for the children who were all well looked after and we made many shipboard friends. There were two Australian girls who were going to Britain as schoolteachers on an exchange scheme and it was one of those incredible coincidences that one of them should turn up as a teacher at the school in London where Peter and Linda started their English education.

boguing
31st May 2009, 19:26
our beautiful Packard for the equivalent of £25

Argh...

kookabat
2nd Jun 2009, 01:27
Cliff,
I see you spent some time at Bottesford. On my recent trip to the UK, chasing the history of a relative who was a 467 Sqn navigator, I dropped in to visit. Though my relative was not posted there himself, the Squadron was at Bottesford before they moved to Waddington.

Here are some photos of Bottesford today.

First, an aerial photo:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee27/kookabat/Euro09/2%20-%2022APR09%20Flying%20from%20Tatenhill/22APR09054.jpg

The site is now Roseland Business Park and there are many diverse companies operating out of its old buildings. I was shown around by the company secretary who is deeply interested in the history of the field.

View of the airfield from the Tower:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee27/kookabat/Euro09/3%20-%2023APR09%20Winthorpe%20and%20Bottesford/23APR09047.jpg

This map was discovered when the tower was being restored, 20 or so years ago. It's now hanging inside:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee27/kookabat/Euro09/3%20-%2023APR09%20Winthorpe%20and%20Bottesford/23APR09050.jpg

Roselands previously used the tower for their company offices, but recently built a new one closer to the entrance to the site. They modelled it on the existing tower at Archerfield in Queensland, Australia.
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee27/kookabat/Euro09/3%20-%2023APR09%20Winthorpe%20and%20Bottesford/23APR09059.jpg

Finally, this building is close to the new tower, and will hopefully be restored for further offices. At the moment it's full of asbestos. It's believed to have been an intelligence or ops block of some description:
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee27/kookabat/Euro09/3%20-%2023APR09%20Winthorpe%20and%20Bottesford/23APR09058.jpg


I visited some 14 wartime airfields in my time away... all have their own atmosphere. I'll add more photos as they become relevant...

Adam

cliffnemo
2nd Jun 2009, 10:00
ADAM.
Many thanks for the excellent pics. At least they have, not only kept the Ops room ? at Bottesford, but have obviously kept it in good repair. Unlike the control tower at Burton Wood, which was a classic example, and by the side of the M62 for all to see. The M62 cuts through the centre of the airfield. Possibly 80,000 traveling viewers per day. It was completely demolished . 'Good job' I didn't know about the dangerous asbestos then.

Note the dispersals around the 'perry track'

Goosequill
4th Jun 2009, 06:12
Hi cliffnemo,

Apologies for this late response to your note of a couple of weeks ago - I have been away.

I guess that some evil-minded techies did have a lot of fun setting oddball questions for the exams - and to figure out the answers would be most impressive, given the complexity of the beast. Thanks very much for your having taken the time to reproduce your checklists - personal handwritten too - MUCH more valuable to the historian than the printed!

I wondered whether you, or regle, or any of the bods with veeerrryyy long memories might be able to answer a question that occurred to me a while back? During training, at OTU, HCU, and LFS, a crew might be required to fly at night, and there would have been a definite possibility of German intruders sculling around. Were the guns of the aircraft used during night training exercises ever loaded? Loading them for things like night circuit bashing might have been thought unnecessary, but for longer night training flights, such as radius of action exercises, there would have been a better case.

I understand that at HCU, training crews could be sent off on Nickel and spoof raids, so I assume that on those they would treat it as a normal op and guns would definitely be ready for use, but for night training flights within mainland UK the answer seems less obvious.

Best regards,

Dave

rmventuri
4th Jun 2009, 06:19
Regle,
I'm curious - how many of your 29 operational sorties where conducted while you were with sqdn 51 at Snaith? Did some (short hauls) only count for a 1/2 or 1/3?

Regards
Rodger

Icare9
4th Jun 2009, 08:49
Cliffnemo: I see you managed to get the 800th post!!
Well done for starting such an interesting thread on 5th June last year, so almost up to the anniversary.

Would it be possible for either (or both) you and regle (hope you getting better) to just run through the entire course of an actual raid?
Did you orbit the airfield gaining height until all airborne or set off immediately? How did you maintain separation from not only other aircraft from your Sqdn but others whilst forming up? Were Sqdns allocated a certain altitude and ETA to be over the target? Were you aware of being in a certain part of the bomber stream, first second or third wave etc? How long would it generally take to cross the North Sea and to reach "operational" height?

I can get a general sense from reading various Bomber Command and Sqdn histories but as you are both so eloquent in evoking those times, I'm sure there is an awful lot more that has never brought home to us youngsters, how each crew performed during a raid, to better understand what you all went through.

regle
4th Jun 2009, 12:52
Very sketchily and remember, it was a long time ago.

A briefing for all designated crews would take place any time after midday on the day. The Target and the route would be disclosed and the position of the Squadron in the attack. ie. First Wave of X waves with a time bracket of X minutes . Specific point of attack on target for the Squadron ( Always subject to Master Bomber Corrections later as the PFF got better and better ).Specific Altitudes to be flown and adhered to . Separation was always your own responsibility so constant vigilance was the price of safety. There was NO formation flying and your gunners were your eyes. There was also "Monica" which gave a constant Sqwauk" if something got close to you and was such a b....dy nuisance it was often switched off.

As the organisation got better, various turning points were shown by flares dropped by the PFF and the times over these points had to be strictly kept to the point of slowing down or speeding up where neccessary.. NOte. NEVER circuiting as this was asking for collisions and there were many, believe me.

It took the average loaded bomber an average of 500ft, per minute to climb to the designated cruising altitude. Obviously this differed from target to target and from Station to Station. There was absolutely no R/T allowed between aircraft. Crew cooperation was vital and don't forget that "corkscrewing " and evasion manoeuvres were tantamount and contributed to an Almighty mass of weaving and twisting flock of aercraft, usually from four hundred to seven hundred strong making their tortuous way there and back over times ranging from five to nine hours.

You can imagine the dilemma of aircraft caught up in searchlights or engaged in a battle with nightfighters. They had to try and stay with the stream for safety and , many times, this was impossible. Very often the way chosen by these unfortunates was to get down as low as possible and try and make their way back by the shortest route.

Finally as an example of the concentration that was achieved I take , from my logbook, Nov.3rd.1943 Target. Dusseldorf. Bombed from 19,000ft. 650 aircraft concentrated over 20 minutes of attack I also note that there were hundreds of searchlights. How many of the casualties were from collisions or avoiding collisions or even from bombs from other aircraft I can only guess.. but it was not pleasant, I can assure you.

I do hope that the decription of organised chaos helps in a search for what it was like. I hope that none of you ever have to go through anything like it. Reg.

cockney steve
4th Jun 2009, 13:32
Reg. That's a fantastic description of the aerial dodgems you performed and your summary."organised chaos" is not over-egging the scene.

The thought of that many aircraft, flying that close, with differing flight-capabilities, loads,speeds and agilities, is truly remarkable.

In view of the "hundreds of searchlights" I'm surprised there wasn't a low-level (fighter?) attack coordinated on them. but there again, I'm not a military man.
I can only remain humbled by your courage,fortitude and skill ,continually launching into the darkness with such primitive resources.

Thanks to all of you who are posting your recollections here.

regle
4th Jun 2009, 18:36
22 and every one of them counted. Some of them should have counted as double but they were not that generous.They were.Hamburg, 23rd.July 43, Nuremburg, 10th. August, Milan,12th. August, Peenemunde, 17th.August, Leverkusen, 22nd. August, Berlin, 23rd. August, Nuremburg, 27th. August, Berlin,31st. August, Mannheim, 5th. Sept., Munich, 6th. Sept., Frankfurt, 4th. Oct.., Hannover, 8th. Oct., Kassel.,22nd. Oct. Dusseldorf., 3rd. Nov.,Cannes marshalling yards.,11th. Nov., Leverkusen.19th., Nov.,Berlin. 22nd. Nov., Stuttgart. 26th. Nov., Leipzig.3rd., Dec.,1943. Berlin. 20th.Jan. 1944 and finally Berlin ., 28th. Jan. 1944. I had started my tour on Oct. 27th.1942 with a daylight low level Mosquito raid on Antwerp Power station.
Much later on ,Mine laying and minor attacks on V1 and V2 sites were not counted as full Ops. During the attacks that I participitated in ,there must have been well over eight hundred ,four engined aircraft missing over the various targets. Each one with a minimum of seven crew members. I was a very,very lucky man. It did not matter how good a pilot you were . Well, it did matter, of course but luck played a huge factor...such as being in the first wave over Peenemunde. Probably the biggest bit was when the Me109 formated on me over Berlin on my very last "Op" as I was droppimng my bombs and pointed at his guns, shrugged his shoulders, saluted me and half rolled and dived away. I shall never forget that. Reg.

pulse1
4th Jun 2009, 20:40
For a long time I have felt ashamed of the way the bravery of our Bomber crews have not been properly recognised with a Campaign Medal. The stories of regle and cliffmemo have driven it home even more.

How ordinary men, who normally would have worked in shops, offices and fields, could go out over Germany every night against weather and the German defences has always amazed me. These stories have brought that home to me even more vividly.

Thanks chaps and please go on.

Chugalug2
4th Jun 2009, 23:09
Amen to that pulse1, but being the men they were, and in Cliff and Reg's case still are, little or no complaint at that slight, being more upset at the lack of ennoblement for Bomber Harris, alone among his peers. As a nation we failed him and his "Old Lags" and should be eternally ashamed. Thank goodness for Mr Gibbs and his campaign for a London Memorial. Later perhaps there may be a Bomber Command Heritage Centre at RAF Bicester, a perfectly preserved BC WW2 Training Airfield. And thank goodness for the Queen Mother who was always ready to stand up and be counted on their behalf.

kookabat
5th Jun 2009, 01:33
Probably the biggest bit was when the Me109 formated on me over Berlin on my very last "Op" as I was droppimng my bombs and pointed at his guns, shrugged his shoulders, saluted me and half rolled and dived away.

Wow.:ok:













(more characters)

Capt Kremin
5th Jun 2009, 06:14
I have just finished reading a brilliant book called "Men of Air" which details the life of Bomber Command crews from early 1943 on.

To be a crew member on just one of those raids would have been daunting enough, but the courage required to do it night after night, knowing what was waiting for you; flak, night fighters, collisions and weather is something that just humbles me.

To those who served, my total respect and thanks.

LowNSlow
5th Jun 2009, 07:41
Cliffnemo, Happy Anniversary for this extremely interesting thread.

Regle, glad you are back in action and giving us your memories.

I am thoroughly enjoying this thread, it has added information to the stories my dad (F/E with 36 ops on Halifax III's with 158 Sqn Lisset from June 1944 to the end) has told me over the years.

S'land
5th Jun 2009, 10:05
Amazing! One year on and over 800 posts later this thread still has the power to interest and excite.

Congratulations and thanks to cliffnemo, regle and other posters from that era. Please, keep the information coming.

regle
5th Jun 2009, 15:09
I suddenly realised that the use of the "Bomber Stream" that superseded the original practice of sending aircraft over a target for as long a period as possible so that the defences were constantly in action and the workers were kept sleepless; a tactic that led to far too many losses and was then completely reversed to saturate the defences. was comparable with the wonderful Television scenes that have recently been shown of Flocks of Starlings and other birds, wheeling and manoueuvering in their hundreds and thousands. Even more apt are the scenes of fish, once again, in what must approach a million, being attacked by predators and the comparison becomes very real to the line of boxes that the Luftwaffe installed from Norway to the French frontier with Spain , each box with it's complement of radar bearing and radar controlled nightfighters. As is clearly shown on these scenes, the unfortunate stragglers and outside edgers are the ones that are picked off and piercing of the entire mass becomes well nigh impossible, so closely packed are they. Unfortunately we did not possess the innate ability to wheel and make the instant reflex avoiding action that these creatures seem to possess so that the whole mass changed direction and speed without even thinking or so it would seem. Nevertheless, that is the nearest that you will get to a simile as to what the bomber stream became. The Americans adopted the stream tactics and , with the appearance of the Packard Merlin Mustang, added fighters to the daylight stream. This effectively paved the way to the complete air superiority that the Allies eventually achieved and the Germans found that their troops and their civilians were being slaughtered as had the inhabitants of Poland. Rotterdam and the many victims of the initial "blitzkrieg". The sowing of the wind had reaped the whirlwind.

rmventuri
5th Jun 2009, 18:20
pointed at his guns, shrugged his shoulders, saluted meJammed guns/out of ammo? - what other explanation could it be? That, Reg, is luck but given that you often had Charlie Porter on board you and the rest of your crew must have been considered elite.

As with Icare9 I would like to hear about the daily "routine" details leading up the actual raid and the post raid debriefing.

I watched Night Bombers last night - for me this movie is not so easy to get due to country code formats - no one on this side of the pond sells it. I found a website FactualTV - Free videos and documentaries, watch online or download (http://www.factualtv.com) where is can be downloaded for a small fee in a country code independent format and then burned to a dvd. This website seems legit however I have never used them before.

Regards
Rodger

cliffnemo
6th Jun 2009, 14:44
Rmventuri. Jammed guns/out of ammo?

More likely out of ammo. Can't remember duration for .303 or .5s. but read recently that the Mustang 's duration of fire was only twenty seconds. Not the minutes, for which the aces on film keep their finger on the button.

During instruction on air to air gunnery, we were taught 'wait til you see the whites of their eyes' ( below 250 yards), and don't waste ammunition.

regle
6th Jun 2009, 18:58
An Air test was nearly always carried out on the morning of an Op. The flight usually took around an hour and was made at around 5,000 ft. This was in order to practice some three engine flying and to check the feathering procedures and I would refer you to previous threads of mine when I related what went on when all four engines feathered when a single button was pressed.
Crew cooperation in getting out of an aircraft was sometimes practised. (Up to a point of course !) A lot was left to the Captain and very little checking was ever done by more senior Officers. I was never a strict disciplinarian but discouraged idle chatter over the intercom as you never knew when it would be vital that the intercom was was clear in case of an emergency or in the sighting of an aircraft which could be vital to take the appropriate action.
The various categories of the crew members would make their checks very differently. The Gunners would be testing their turret manoeuvres and also their guns. By the way, we always had live ammunition available for night flying and air tests. The Bomb aimer would be cooperating with the navigator on the checking and rechecking of their respective instruments and Gee or H2S and most Captains would pose various emergencies such as sudden violent turns and dives whilst inthe middle of parachute drill. This was very unpopular and obviously had to be limited in it's scope. The parachutes were all of the chest type and it was vital that everyone knew the position of his own 'chute as well as the position of the others.
The W/op would be sending and receiving although this was sometimes forbidden to prevent the enemy getting some foreknowledge of impending raids from the amount of radio messages that would be picked up. The F/E would be the one whom the Captain would probably be giving a spot of flying practice as he was the one most likely to take over if the Pilot was incapacitaated or worse. This would be very limited in trying to show how to hold the aeroplane straight and level. Sometimes the Bomb aimer or Navigator would have been on a pilot's course and had failed but this was rare and I have never heard of a non pilot crew member bringing an aircraft back and landing in England or even in succeeding in the crew bailing out
Some people were able to sleep for a while during the afternoon but I can't remember getting very much. I know that a lot of letters were written and given to crews to hand on, who were not on Ops that night. During the day the various fitters and armourers would be loading the aircraft with their deadly cargo and the Bowser people would be very busy fuelling up the aircraft. The amount of fuel going on would soon become very well known around the crews who would make educated guesses as to the whereabouts of the target. The Ruhr, or Happy Valley, as it was known would mean a much lighter load than Berlin or Munich.
It would soon become time to pile into the transports that were all awaiting and we would go to the parachute section and draw our chutes to the usual stale jokes "If it does'nt work, bring it back..."etc. and then we would be dropped off in crews at the various dispersals where the ground crew who had been working all day were there to welcome us. The "Chiefy" would tell the Captain all the little things that had been done to his precious "Kite" and we would get in to our respective places, go through the Check lists meticulously and await the start up signal, usually a "Very Light " but sometimes by R/T. Then the ponderous, waddling , heavily laden 'planes would start their taxying to the Takeoff point. There would always be a huge crowd of the Station personnel to see you off and it was a very emotional moment when your Green light came and you opened up the four engines and slowly gathered speed to the waving and ,I know for a fact, tears of the many onlookers from the Station Commander down to the lowest airman and airwoman.
From there on it was the slow climb to cruising altitude which would not always be reached until you were well over the North Sea and you would see the myriads of others all pointed in the same direction scattered all over the darkening sky but with the sun setting behind them they would be very clear.
Then, all too soon, the Navigator would say "Enemy Coast ahead" and the battle was on. Reg

kookabat
7th Jun 2009, 00:39
Reg that is a wonderfully evocative description - thank you. It's the small details (parachute jokes etc) that bring it all alive.

What I'm interested in is the daily routine stuff. For example, does anyone know who would have completed the weight and balance for each aircraft, or even if it was calculated for each individual aircraft at all? I remember seeing a metal cut-out silhouette of a Manchester with weights hanging off it at the BBMF visitors centre at Coningsby last month - which was apparently used by captains to calculate the trim for their aircraft. But was that a daily thing or was it completed by the 'powers that be' for operations?

Yarpy
7th Jun 2009, 09:37
There would always be a huge crowd of the Station personnel to see you off and it was a very emotional moment when your Green light came and you opened up the four engines and slowly gathered speed to the waving and ,I know for a fact, tears of the many onlookers from the Station Commander down to the lowest airman and airwoman.

A very moving account and it does give a real feel for what the mood of these operations was like. More please. The detail is really interesting!

regle
8th Jun 2009, 11:26
I receive a monthly "News Letter" from Belgium where I flew with Sabena for thirty years. The latest contained a story of a desperately damaged B17 that was trying to get back to England.... the story is told on snopes.com: Charlie Brown (http://www.snopes.com/military/charliebrown.asp) and I think will interest most of you.
When I recall the Me109 that formated on me over Berlin and virtually escorted me on my bombing run before pointing to his guns, shrugging his shoulders, saluting and then half rolling into a dive away, I can empathise with the incident described in the above link.
When one hears of the agonising atrocities that war, inevitably brings it is heart warming to hear of the acts of chivalry that still survived the conflict. Reg.

Brian Abraham
9th Jun 2009, 03:47
regle, thanks ever so for your insight into this period of history. One question, your opinion on the RAF practice of only one pilot against the US two pilots on bombers. I guess it was not a subject of discussion at the time. I dips me lid.

regle
9th Jun 2009, 09:45
The answer was simple, Brian. It was a luxury that we could not afford. The earlier days of the war , we did not have enough pilots to replace the losses. The Battle of Britain was , probably a far closer run thing than the Battle of Waterloo as we were down to our very last few pilots. Thanks to Beaverbrook we had the mqchines but the training programmes in the U.K. were virtually useless due to our weather problems and the far flung Empire Training programme was a long and arduous process. The US came to our rescue with the Arnold and, later the Towers schemes but it took time.
The decision was made that second pilots were not to be used except for training purposes and, even then, only very rarely as we just could not afford the loss of two pilots with one machine.
From about mid 1944 the position changed and the unfortunate trainees found themselves destined for the Glider pilots lost at fiascoes like Arnhem. By that time though, the Air superiority had become ours. The US Air Force by the very nature of their Operations which, apart from the strategic selection of daylight targets was also deliberately designed to bring the Luftwaffe up and to destroy as many of the Fighters as possible also brought on the real danger of the Pilot being incapacitated and by very nature of the long and tiring Formation Flying, two pilots were necessary and , like their magnificent capacity for churning out machines and machinery, they were able to provide the neccessary pilots. We stuck it out and turned the tide but we have a lot to thank the USA for.

cliffnemo
10th Jun 2009, 10:33
Goosequill I think at ‘heavy con’ we would have the guns loaded, all the time. On training flights we carried a drogue (shaped like a wind sock) complete with long rope. This was occasionally streamed behind the aircraft and the crew practiced firing from the rear turret. Can’t really remember but would guess the skipper would corkscrew during firing. We also used a firing/ bombing range off the seashore North of Skegness, and also had a bombing range at Alkborough at the point where the Trent reaches the Humber.

ICARE. I think you have had a perfect account from Regle, to which I could not add much, and can only say how fortunate that we have him on board. I seem to remember we climbed on course, and just before nightfall, rendezvoused on the coast south of ‘sunny skeg’ The sight of hundreds of aircraft almost touching wings , and heading East is impossible to describe. As I have recommended before the C.D Night Bomber is a true record, produced during the war, by Air Commodore Henry Cozens . Although I intended to write about my experiences in chronological order I think I should say at this stage, that although we did make numerous trips across the North sea, only three were counted as ops, the rest being diversion raids, dropping window, etc. Did say, and repeat ‘add nauseam’ ,“no tales of derring do”
As Hardie Allbrecht said . We were the lucky ones. I would not have agreed at that time.

I intended to include details of my time at Bottesford next, but decided to ‘brew’ a mug of tea and Skype my friend John of the Halifax rebuild, just to give me a break, and also to arrange a visit in a few weeks time. Amongst other things he told me that his video of the rebuild had been reviewed in the magazine Fly past, with many pics extracted from his video .He told me that the Elvington website now includes a panoramic video of the interior of the aircraft. I googled Elvington air museum and clicked on ‘Halifax cockpit program’ then downloaded ‘quick time plug in’ I discovered that if I clicked on the pic and moved the mouse to the right, the picture panned the cockpit. However the picture is rather small and I would like some of you to try it, and advise how to increase the size. Tried zoom, and control plus all to no effect.




Re my previous question , “was an air gunners flying life about 14 hours in the early stages of the war >? Found this on the Elvington site
-------The Air Gunner's tasks were complicated and hazardous and his life expectancy appallingly short - it could be as little as two weeks before a rear gunner on bomber operations could expect to be shot down or killed----------

I have just found page one of my flying clothing book. This shows the issue of the earlier type flying boots which were of the brown suede/ sheepskin type. Think I have said before the heels were easily trodden down, and then became uncomfortable to walk in. The boots were later modified by fitting a horizontal strap at ankle level which was an improvement but later they were superseded by boots escape. Boots escape had black/sheepskin top, with normal type leather shoe, and contained a small knife for cutting off the top if in enemy territory. It also mentions issue of three pairs of gloves. Linings gauntlet, had a 24 volt heating element incorporated, and kept the hands warm at all altitudes when plugged into the aircraft supply They also kept the hands warm if plugged into a motorcycle 12 volt system at zero feet. Gloves silk , consisted of four thicknesses of silk.
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/FLYINGCLOTHINGP1220.jpg
I managed to obtain a better colour on this one.

Fareastdriver
10th Jun 2009, 14:15
Gauntlets, flying, left hand....
Gauntlets, flying, right hand....

Even in 1960 that was still the way of issuing leather flying gauntlets.
The left and the right were of different design and by different manufacturers. Impossible to fly with but luckily the Provost T1 had a big hot radial engine to hide behind.

Icare9
10th Jun 2009, 16:45
Hi, cliffnemo, nice to see you back here.
Thanks for your comments. I hadn't properly appreciated the height that German flak reached. Having seen the USAAF B17's at 40,000 ft and still being in bursts of flak, at 18,000 to 20,00 feet pretty much everything seemed to hit you. Was there a difference between 20mm cannon fire and 37mm guns?
Weren't they the "flaming onions"? It doesn't seem as if there was any time when somebody below wasn't firing something at you once you reached Europe!!

I came across a story on one of the Bomber Command websites about a Navigator (Harry Parker?) from Southend who used to work on the pleasure steamers with a catch phrase "All aboard the Nemo before the water goes!"
Just wondered if you might have come across him with your PPRuNe name....

Anyway, the YAM Elvington cockpit video is best accessed via the Home page and just above the click on the roundel for Halifax bomber.
Halifax Bomber Virtual Tour - Yorkshire Air Museum (http://www.yorkshireairmuseum.co.uk/virtual_tour/halifax/360_halifax_1.html)
It loads without Quick time nonsense and is at least half a screen, not a poky square. You can then hit Full Screen and move, pause and reminisce. Trust this helps!!

Goosequill
10th Jun 2009, 17:20
Hi Cliffnemo,

Thanks very much for your comments about the loaded state of the guns during training flights - it does indeed make very good sense that they should have been loaded just about all of the time. Interestingly, there may perhaps be just one occasion when they might not have been, and that is during the first familiarisation flight at LFS when just the trainee pilot and his instructor seem to have had the Lanc to themselves. I can only think that the route taken would have been comfortably inland.

Re. streaming a drogue and taking pot shots at it; sounds like a lot of fun. (Did pilots get a chance I wonder, if their FE could take over for a few minutes?) Were extra points awarded for hitting the HF aerial ballast weight?!

Thanks again,

Cheers,

Dave

Goosequill
10th Jun 2009, 18:04
Hi Regle,

Thanks for confirming ammo carried for air tests etc. The jigsaw is filling in...

Cheers,

Dave

Goosequill
10th Jun 2009, 18:18
Hi cliffnemo and regle,

Your accounts of the prep for ops is marvellous stuff and I think everyone reading it has probably now got a most complete picture of how it all happened. Just one question occurs to this procedural ferret; at what point, and where, was the Form 700 signed? Somewhere between briefing, dinner (for those wanting to guarantee their ham and eggs), drawing chutes, getting togged up, getting bussed out, walking round the machine and then getting in; someone must have said 'would you kindly sign this...'

Ta!

Incidently, perhaps the worst 'chute joke I heard was from a 'chute hander-outer when I was in the ATC:

'If it doesn't work, cross your left leg over your right.'
'Why?'
'So we can unscrew you on a right-hand thread, har har!'

Perhaps 'chute hander-outers have never got out much...

Cheers,

Dave

LowNSlow
11th Jun 2009, 06:29
Icare9 From what I've read the USAAF B-17s usually bombed from between 20-30,000' They had a maximum ceiling of approx 35,000' but they wouldn't have got that high with a full bombload and fuel. The Halifax IIIs and the Lancasters bombed from around 20-23,000' with the poor old Stirling absorbing the flak at 17,000'.

andyl999
11th Jun 2009, 08:07
http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss278/regle999/RAF/yeoldpubLarge.jpg

andyl999
11th Jun 2009, 08:22
A little bird has told me that Reg was interviewed on TV, so Reg perhaps we can have the date that the programme is on when you know?

Andy

regle
11th Jun 2009, 08:59
Andy, For those intrepid enough to want to watch, the programme is scheduled to go out in "Countrywise" on ITV 1 at around 1930 on July 16th.but check as those were provisional dates. I am saying "nuffink" as I haven't seen the result ! With friends like you, who needs enemies ? Reg.

regle
11th Jun 2009, 14:27
The form 700 would normally be signed by the Captain, irrespective of rank, when the crew arrived at the dispersal ready to get to their posts. The Chiefy would have it with him and would go over the various points with the Skipper before handing it to him to sign and officially "take over"the aircraft. I might just mention that most pilots encouraged members of the ground crew to come up with them at every possible opportunity , such as air tests. It was by no means uncommon for " Stowaways" to actually be on board on an "Op" although they must have been stark, raving mad to do so . I always believed in taking parachute packers up and personally selecting their chutes at random.
By the way wasn't Captain Nemo the Skipper of the Sub (Nautilus ?), in Jules Verne's "20,00 leagues under the sea ?"

Goosequill
11th Jun 2009, 17:19
Hi regle,

Thanks very much for confirming that - and that would be the logical place to do it; after the walk-around. But funnily enough I have never seen it stated explicitly in memoirs, or seen in footage - the service film units only ever seemed to show happy crewmen leaving their transport and going straight up the ladder...

Thought there had to more to it!

('Excuse me, sir; would you kindly tell your crew NOT do that to MY tailwheel?'.)

Yes, Cap'n Nemo was the man in 20,000 Leagues - James Mason did particularly well in the role...

Cheers,

Dave

regle
11th Jun 2009, 21:58
You were so right about the tailwheels. I don't know how on earth Bomber Command had any aircraft left whose tailwheel hadn't been thoroughly rotted through. If I remember rightly they were not all retractable and so it would have been quite common for the whole tailwheel assembly to drop off somewhere during the flight or on landing , simply due to the amount of acid that it been doused with during it's career. It was supposed to be for "Good Luck" and it certainly worked for me. I had a good laugh when I read your Chiefy's quotation. It was so true also. It was always his Kite and we had to respect that. The Ground crews were the salt of the Earth and were inconsolable when, as so often happened, their Kite did not return.

Blacksheep
12th Jun 2009, 07:16
Nemo - Latin for "No Name"

"It would be the same as shooting at a man in a parachute." Says it all, really. A gallant act.

Icare9
12th Jun 2009, 07:33
Perhaps that indicates that Cliff knew some "naughty lasses"!!!!

Good to hear that you are now a TV star regle!! I assume the programme is about your wartime memories, did anyone on here "prompt" the TV station about this thread? I'm sure we'll all be watching where possible. If any change to schedules, I'm sure we'll hear!!

cliffnemo
12th Jun 2009, 09:48
During my C.B period I had to decide on a 'handle'. For some unknown reason I thought of the Darky procedure, Hello Darky, Hello Darky, This is Nemo, this is Nemo, this is Nemo over. We did not use any call signs, letters of the day, or aircraft identity numbers just Nemo, and remained 'unknown'. On joining PPrUNE , what better than cliffunknown. However since then this fool has 'blown his cover'.

regle
12th Jun 2009, 22:29
No, Icare9, I actually helped the Dover Council when the Bleriot Family came over some years ago as I knew someone on the Council ,who knew that I spoke French and was an ex-pilot. Someone mentioned this to the Chap heading the PR Company who are organising the whole shebang and he rang me and asked me to help out with weekend events (July25th./26th.) and then asked me to do the interview with ITV. As I said, I haven't seen the result but was told that it was successful. They must have filmed about five minutes and will probably screen about two of them ; I must say that they were a charming bunch of people, very considerate and very professional as you would expect....We shall see ! The weekend should be very good including the Red Arrows, Flying replicas of the Bleriot X1 Monoplanes, (note the comma after Red Arrows ) Firework displays, French stalls along the Sea Front and lots of other things. I just hope that the weather is kind. Cliff, how about designing a pprune badge so that people could recognise a fellow ppruner ? Something to do with the highly derogatory order of the irremoveable digit might be an idea ! Over , Reg

Padhist
13th Jun 2009, 10:06
Cliffnemo
Have just browsed through your thread and was delighted to see a picture of The Majestic Hotel. I certainly spent many nights there. Were any of you there the day the Sqdn Ldr C.O. ( An ex cricketer I think) blew his top because of our indiscipline Called an early morning parade and ALL I repeat ALL would attend....Well most of us were there when one member appeared on the balcony in his dressing gown smoking a cigarette.He just leaned on the balcony whilst the C.O. screamed for someone to " Go in and bring him down" Well the chap just lingered long enough to give himself time to get away.But that was not the end of the story.Whilst the CO. was berating us, a large Alsation dog, locked lovingly to another smaller dog which he trailed from the bushes behind the CO. Well the whole parade collapsed in laughter which the CO. thought was against him!. The parade just left group by group for the Copper Kettle or some such place with the screams of the CO. ringing in rheir ears.

Wiley
13th Jun 2009, 10:15
Padhist, CO's rants to errant aircrew seem to be a cosntant in every war. Sorry if some might consider this thread drift, but below is virtually the same story - but from another (almost) war. THIS IS THE REAL THING - THIS IS WAR!

Ubon is very close to the Laotian and Cambodian borders with Thailand, and the local Thai communist guerrillas at that stage (mid 1960s) were very active, so there was some reason to take Base security seriously. The CO decided that the troops should be reminded of this, so one day he called a practice dawn alert in full battle gear. The Airmen were dragged out of bed by the NCOs, where they stood, (literally) dressed to kill, ready to do battle with the enemy.

The CO then realised that his pilots had not surfaced, so with singular lack of humour, he ‘requested’ their presence immediately on parade. After fifteen minutes, a very motley crew were on parade behind him, most of them with towels around their waists or in underwear, looking for all the world like survivors of a shipwreck. Many were also suffering - and showing - severe symptoms of a very late night.

The sight of the gathered officers would not have helped the CO’s case with the Airmen as he harangued them about the need for vigilance in a war zone, but what really blew his credibility was the helmet he wore on his head as he spoke. Emblazoned across the standard American issue steel helmet immediately above his blazing eyes was the word ‘BACK’.

Goosequill
13th Jun 2009, 10:24
Hi cliffnemo,

And a very good handle it is!

You mention the Darky procedure. I have heard of it before but have never really understood its full intended function; and in what circumstances it tended to be used.

Would you be good enough to tell us about it? Perhaps provide an example or two?

Thanks very much!

Cheers,

Dave

cliffnemo
14th Jun 2009, 15:21
I intend to remark on items, Majestic Hotel, Halifax film, and form 700 soon, but first of all will answer Dave/ Goosequil . (So much to do, and so little energy)

Dave, I append below four pages dealing with R.T procedure, but would point out, I think I did BRIEFLY deal with this subject before. However it is quite a tedious job searching in PPRuNe to see what has been written, so will give you all the 'gen' . I would also point out it was stressed to us, exactly the words as quoted below should be used, and in the correct order, otherwise the called station would not answer.
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/DARKY1228.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/DARKYTWO229.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/DARKYTHREE230.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/DARKYFOUR231.jpg

I notice I have canceled the reference to nemo on page one ,and later must have been instructed to use the aircraft letters.Nemo is referred to on page four. Oh well it must have been written on the black board (sorry about that, we didn't have white boards in those days). Does any one know why it was canceled ?. Possibly,I was as 'muxed ip ' then I was I am now.

rmventuri
14th Jun 2009, 21:12
Regle,

I am finally getting a chance to read this forum from the beginning and see that you were posted to HCU 1663 in May '43. Doug was posted at the same from May 25 to July 6 '43 then on to sqdn 51. Researching 1663 I noticed that 1663 participated in supporting some operations for spoof raids and also for mine laying exercises. Do you remember if any ops while in 1663 would count towards the 30 - I'm trying to count all of Doug's ops and only count 17 from Snaith (an additional 7 were aborted). Actually any specifics of what your responsibilities and activities were while at 1663 would be interesting.

Ciffnemo
Out of ammoSo a night fighter would land/reload and go after the stream again? I noticed with the help of Icare9 that the same nightfigher pilot claimed four kills (all lancs) on the same Leipzig raid.

Tip: its a bit gnarly but if you want to search this forum to see what has been discussed in the past you can use google site search as follows;
enter the following in the google search field as you would normally followed by the search criteria (by using the keyword "site:" google will limit the search to this forum). In this example I am looking for any discussion on blenheim

site:www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/329990-gaining-r-f-pilots-brevet-ww11 (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/329990-gaining-r-f-pilots-brevet-ww11) blenheim

Regards,
Rodger

rmventuri
14th Jun 2009, 21:29
Ciffnemo,
I am still catching up however I am interested in your time at Harrogate (excuse me if this has already been broached - if so I'll catch it as I continue catching up). I am also researching my father's service history and noted from his log book that after completing his BAT at Little Rissington he was stationed at Harrogate from July 3 to Aug 8 '42. Do you have any idea what he would be doing there other than waiting for his next assignment? After Harrogate he was then stationed at Turnberry 5 OTU.

Regards
Rodger

Icare9
14th Jun 2009, 21:39
Rodger, I think those who were there will add any correction, but Bf109's or Fw190's generally didn't have radar so were hunting by sight after being directed to the bomber streams by ground controllers, flak or searchlights. The use of single seater fighters was a bit of a desperate measure. The pilots were hand picked bomber pilots with excellent navigational skills so they had a better chance of finding "patrol areas" (fighter boxes) from where they could be directed by ground radar to the bomber stream. This method was more susceptible to jamming by window or special operatives in Lancs broadcasting fake directions in German or by simply swamping their frequencies.

Once the fighter boxes had been identified by the RAF, Mosquito nightfighters could then pick them off while they were loitering awaiting direction.
By reason of limited range (and no doubt the strain of searching for bombers) they would be limited to one sortie as by the time they had landed, refuelled and rearmed the bomber stream would have moved out of range.

That's why larger aircraft such as the Bf110 and Ju88 nightfighter variants were used. They could carry a larger crew able to operate airborne radar. 3 pairs of eyes had a better chance of locating bombers as well as being directed into the stream and then picking up targets on their own radar. They could stay with the bomber stream for considerably longer, too.

The 4 kills in one night would have been on the one sortie (Paul Szameitat if I recall correctly, who took charge of the Staffel in early Jan 44 only to be shot down and killed 14th Jan 44). It wasn't always just the bombers that got shot down!!

Whilst I understand regle's remark about the fighter being out of ammo, I just wonder why HIS gunners didn't fire!! After all, to be out of ammo, some other poor souls had not been so fortunate, nor would others on another night. But that's rewriting history, it happened and thanks to that he's still here with us! No doubt soaking up the sun in Hellfire Corner!!

regle
14th Jun 2009, 22:08
Early January1949. We landed back from India in a very cold ,newly Socialist Britain and it was quite a shock to find that rationing was still in force for virtually everything including coal for heating and there was absolutely nothing that could be even faintly called a luxury to be found in the shops. Plus that there were queues for all the rationed goods and people joined a queue without even knowing what they were going to get at the end of their wait. Housing was impossible to find and we were lucky to be put up by my Wife's sister in her small flat in the, then, very desirable district of Peckham for a while and then we were very, very fortunate in obtaining a nice, almost luxurious, ground floor flat on a council estate in Clapham in Albion Ave, just off Wandsworth Rd.

There was only "Utility" Furniture to be had but we were grateful for anything and soon had the place cosy.. Before we had any living room furniture we installed our pride and joy.....an eight inch screen Pye, black and white television set. There were no colour transmissions yet in 1949. It was mounted on top of an old box and we were the only people around to have such a thing so we had every child in the neighbourhood watching Muffin the Mule, Bill and Ben, the flower pot men not forgetting "Little Weed ". Dora was expecting a baby in a couple of months and ir was important that I found a new job.

At the end of the war , Berlin was divided into zones. The Western zone occupied and administered by the USA, the UK and France and the Eastern zone by Russia. In July 1948 a new currency, the Deutschmark, was introduced into the Western zone and to Allied West Berlin to help to combat inflation and bring back prosperity to the beaten Nation. The USSR viewed this as an ominous threat and feared that this would bring the whole of Berlin including the Soviet Eastern zone under Capitalist Western influence. Stalin immediately closed down all road, rail and canal links from the Western half of Berlin to try and starve the people and therefore the western powers out of Berlin.

The Allied response was to fly every vital need of the West Berliners into the existing aerodromes of Tempelhof and, initially Gatow. The French had an unsuitable aerodrome at Tegel which in an unbelievably short time was turned into a vital part of the Airlift by German labourers including thousands of women. Gatow was thus enabled to continue as the British civilian passenger airfield but with certain supplies being flown in there as well.

From June 1948 until May 1949, the Allies flew 278,247 sorties and their planes delivered roughly, a total of over two million tonnes of supplies including clothing, medicine,coal, building material,petrol and diesel oil. It was calculated that there was a plane landing every three minutes of the day and night, week in week out.

According to reports, Stalin wqs shaken to the core by the magnitude and the skilled performance of the Western Powers in performing the fantastic operation throughout nearly a year and in every possible sort of weather.
He was shown that the Western Powers were not going to yield and opened up the links on the 11th. May 1948.

There is absolutely no doubt that the magnificent ,concerted effort of the allies had averted the very real nightmare reality of WW3. I am indebted to Colin Cruddas's terrific book "In Cobham's Company" for most of the foregoing introduction of "Der Luftbrucke" or "The Berlin Airlift" as I had the privilege of flying on it for the renowned pioneer of British Aviation, Sir Alan Cobham whose Company "Flight Refuelling " now known as "Cobhams" flew all the fuel oil and gasoline into Berlin during the Airlift.

As a boy I had been an eager spectator of the "Flying Circuses " that toured the country before the war. Alan Cobham and a Capt. Barnard were two of the main ones and the shows that they put on were wonderful and were always supported by crowds of air minded spectators. There would always be "a trip round Blackpool Tower for about seven shillings and sixpence and I can remember being a horrified spectator when the grand finale of one of the circuses which was a formation of aircraft including a three engined high wing monoplane and two or three biplanes over the town and there was a collision. Well over thirty years later, when I was a Captain in Sabena , we had a dinner party for some friends from EuroControl, the ATC set up in Brussels . I told them that I had been on the ground when I had seen the collision of two of these planes over Blackpool's Central Station and was amazed to hear one of the guests, my friend, Gordon Burch, say "I was a passenger in one of those planes, Reg ". He had been treated , by his Father, to a ride in one of the biplanes not concerned in the collision which caused a lot of fatalities and was newspaper headlines at the time.

To get back to the Berlin Airlift. Pilots, of course, were now flavour of the month as everyone with anything that could get off the ground was trying to get in on the Milk Cow that the Airlift was becoming. Don Bennet bought some Tudors, a chap called Bond bought a couple of Halifaxes , flew one himself and hired a crew for the other one. Silver City got in on it and I decided that I would contact "Flight Refuelling" because of my boyhood affinity with Sir Alan Cobham. Once again "Lady Luck" was riding with me when I went down to Tarrant Rushton for an interview with their Chief Pilot. I walked into the office and the chap behind the desk said "Hello Reg,. Long time no see." It was Tommy Marks, a fellow cadet from my training in Georgia in 1941 that was now Chief Pilot of "Flight Refuelling" . I had to take him up in one of their converted Lancastrians and I thought that I would show him a bit of the "limit flying" that we had used to teach at the EFS at Hullavington. I had just completed a steep turn with sixty degrees of bank and was preparing to stall it when he, rather hastily , said that he had seen enough and could I be ready to take a Lancastrian over to RAF Wunstorf tomorrow to join the airlift?

regle
14th Jun 2009, 22:15
He might have been out of ammuntion but he wasn't out of his mind ! He was out on the port and about three or four hundred yards so at the limit of the range and kept himself just slightly ahead and slightly below me so that the rear gunner couldn't see him and the mid upper couldn't bring his guns to bear on him without hitting our wing. They had long taken out the useless front gun .

rmventuri
15th Jun 2009, 03:43
Cliffnemo, Regle and all
I found this one page document in Doug's file - called Casualty Section Initial Action Sheet. I doubt if it is meaningful, however interesting to note that Crash Signal Received (4/12) and Verification Received (6/12) are initialed even though they were lost without trace. Any thoughts on what that this might mean?
Regards,
Rodger

http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt245/rmventuri/DougsFileCasualtySection.jpg

kookabat
15th Jun 2009, 08:04
Gees Reg! WWII, India AND the Berlin Airlift... is there anything you DIDN'T do???

:}

regle
15th Jun 2009, 09:43
There was a famous Singer called Al Jolson. He made one of the first all talking Movies "The Singing Fool",in 1928 ( I was six years old )where he had audiences in tears with his rendering of "Sonny Boy". He had a famous catchphrase. "You ain't seen nothing, yet".! Regle.

cliffnemo
15th Jun 2009, 10:27
Rmventure, thanks for that . Very useful advice. Haven't used the prefix 'site' yet but will soon. Just logged on to Google, then advanced search , enterd DARKY NEMO in the 'all these words box' and up came All the Brave Promises: Memories of Aircraft Woman 2nd Class 2146391 - Google Books Result
by Mary Lee Settle - 1995 - History - 153 pages.

I couldn't copy and paste the script, think it was blocked, but included the words
Hello, Darky,' and we would call out safety to the unknown, "Hello, Nemo. Hello, Nemo.' One night an American voice came through at strength 1, weak, ...
books.google.co.uk/books?isbn=1570031002...All the Brave Promises: Memories of Aircraft Woman 2nd Class 2146391 - Google Books Result
by Mary Lee Settle - 1995 - History - 153 pages
For any one interested , a bit more info on Darky can be read using Rmventures method.

Union Jack
15th Jun 2009, 10:37
Reg and Cliff

As ever, lost in admiration and appreciation of your achievements and clear recollections, undimmed by the passing of the years - this thread should be required reading for a very wide range of people, not least historians to politicians .....

Grateful thanks too for Rodger's contributions, which I feel add a very substantial additional perspective, and I clearly understand why he says the "RCAF Casualty Section Initial Action Sheet" may not perhaps seem "meaningful" in the direct context of clarifying the circumstances of Doug's last flight.

However, I am sure that I am not alone in feeling that such sheets, which presumably existed in similar form for the RAF and all Commonwealth Air Forces, are enormously meaningful when, almost literally, one "reads between the lines" of the individual entries on the sheet and considers what they mean, singly and collectively, and the an impact they must have had on the lives, and, deaths, of so many brave men and their families.

Jack

Yarpy
15th Jun 2009, 13:13
I had to take him up in one of their converted Lancastrians and I thought that I would show him a bit of the "limit flying" that we had used to teach at the EFS at Hullavington. I had just completed a steep turn with sixty degrees of bank and was preparing to stall it when he, rather hastily , said that he had seen enough and could I be ready to take a Lancastrian over to RAF Wunstorf tomorrow to join the airlift?

Love it. Just imagine doing that in a SIM test for an airline these days.

cliffnemo
15th Jun 2009, 15:02
Rmventure . Harrogate was simply a holding place for qualified aircrew. Think I have written everything I remember about the place.However if you have any specific questions, ask on this thread. If I can't help you others will.

The only thing I didn't previously mention, and has recently come to mind. One morning we were on parade when an aircraft , possibly a Tiger Moth , can't remember, flew low over the Majestic Hotel they normally dropped toilet rolls, but this time it was inflated condoms (as we are obliged to call them now) . One landed between us and our flight sergeant, We roared with laughter, the F/S shouted "quiet you silly little men, and when you are old enough I will tell you what they are really for (more laughter)

Goosequill
15th Jun 2009, 15:05
Hi Cliff,

Thanks very much for those pages of your notes about radio procedures - it filled out my understanding of the Darky procedure a heck of a lot. (And thanks for digging out those book titles.)

It did raise one question in my mind, if you happen to know the answer; when making a Darky R/T call, were the Darky stations listening on all possible R/T frequencies, or was there a button on the R/T channel selector in the aircraft which was reserved for a single Darky channel that was to be used by all aircraft?

Thanks yet again!

Cheers,

Dave

cliffnemo
15th Jun 2009, 15:54
Hi Icare.
Thanks for the gen on scanning interior of the Elvington Halifax. Managed to obtain full screen . It is amazing and I would suggest all pruners should view. Not only can you pan round the various stations, but can scan up and down , even see John's astrodome , made from a flat sheet of perspex. An absolute tribute to John and his helpers, not to forget the people who produced the film.
Look at the pic below, showing John and his wife standing in front of the Halibag.It is still awaiting the front section, and then compare it with the finished inside pics.You will then appreciate the vast amount of work, scrounging for parts, studying blue prints , routing of pipes and wires, etc, they experienced
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/FORM700227.jpg


I am visiting Beverley, and Pocklington at the weekend, and have arranged to meet John and search his memorabilia for items of interest If I find anything of interest ,will reproduce here. With a bit of luck I may persuade him to load PPRuNE on his new laptop.
Now working on replies re Form 700, Regle's PPRuNE badge, lost tail wheels. stowaways, PHEW.

Icare9
15th Jun 2009, 17:43
Cliff: What you two guys are doing would tire the rest of us, let alone your venerable years. At this rate you will outlast Henry Allingham, so we can look forward to another 30 years of posts!!

Regle: There was a famous Singer called Al Jolson. He made one of the first all talking Movies "The Singing Fool", in 1928 (I was six years old) where he had audiences in tears with his rendering of "Sonny Boy'
I half expected you to say you did the voice over and he mimed!!! I can have people in tears too, when I sing, but not for that reason!!

I've never heard of a "Crash Signal" before. What does it mean (assuming that as it didn't happen to either of you, you might still have known about it.) Did each aircraft have a continuous tone that, when it crashed cut off, or was a signal somehow sent automatically? If there was such a signal, wouldn't it have given a time when the signal was lost? There is no provision for a time to be recorded on that Form, simply the date.
I can't recall ever hearing about this before. What would "Verification" consist of? 48 hours without word from AirSea Rescue or other report of landing or crashing somewhere in England, it would be safe to assume that you couldn't still be in the air. Without contact from the crew you would be posted as "Missing". I recall that some aircraft carried homing pigeons so you could get a message back hopefully giving a location.
Apologies for dwelling on this darker issue, I really do want to hear the rest of your stories, but when certain subjects are raised, I think we all benefit from participating in some small way. And Reg, I can now understand better why that fighter made such an impression on you. A small human moment amongst all the horror.
Onwards, my friends!!

ancientaviator62
16th Jun 2009, 08:25
As regle says about the Berlin Airlift and Stalin being staggered by the West's response, I understand that the the Soviet calculations were based on WW2 airlift capabilities .
Specifically, the inabilty of the Luftwaffe to supply the German Sixth Army at Stalingrad played a major part in their planning the blocckade of Berlin.
Apologies for any thread drift will get back on track soon !

cliffnemo
16th Jun 2009, 15:06
RMVENTURI . Have just Googled as you suggested >

site:www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/329990-gaining-r-f-pilots-brevet-ww11 (if any one wants to use this method, see RMVENTURI'S previous URL/post, as the above was corrupted during copy and paste )

It not only works well searching in pprune, but I have bookmarked the above blenheim page, and when I want to search PPRuNE just reload it from bookmarks, delete the word blenheim and substitute say Harrogate, smashing.
Thanks CLIFF.

jungle drums
16th Jun 2009, 19:32
Franz Stigler!

What a story! A man of honour!

Sorry guys but I do hope it was just the red wine that made me wipe a tear when I read that story!

I am sure that this man slept well with his conscience in his latter years with that particular memory of his war.

Are there similar stories from Junkers pilots over England?
(Please don't answer in the context of right or wrong, sides etc, but in the context of humanity.)

There was so much lost by all sides during those horrible times - WW1 and 2 - I am sad that I did not listen as much to tales such as yours, Cliffnemo and Regle, as much as I should have when I was younger.

Men (and women) that would stand up to the plate and face whatever would be delivered. But back then I guess I took it for granted then that you guys would always be around.

Thank you.

regle
16th Jun 2009, 22:16
I quote your words " I wish that I had listened more....etc" . My late beloved wife used to say exactly the same thing about her Father, who was in the 1st. World War, was in the trenches and at Gallipoli. But it was ever thus. I was lucky enough to have a very young Father who joined the RAF at the same time as I did. He was 40 and I was 18 so I did not have the, let's face it, boring task to an adolescent of listening to some old Geezer (Probably about forty !) telling war stories. It is only because of this fantastic and accursed thing that I am sitting before ,that we are able to communicate and not waste our hard earned experience to make, I hope , it unneccessary for future generations to undergo the same thing. But I doubt that it will. But I do add one thing that I have said over and over again. KEEP A DIARY,or whatever replaces it in this electronic world. It is to my lasting regret that I did not but I do have six log books so I can refer to them for where I was all those years and, roughly what I was doing. All the very best, Reg.

jabberwok
17th Jun 2009, 13:17
This is a wonderful thread. I only found it yesterday and, like a good book, I have not been able to put it down.

I was second generation ATC - part of the mass intake in the late 1960's needed to replace the huge number of ex WW2 controllers coming up for retirement. The majority were ex aircrew but few ever spoke of their wartime experiences and we respected them too much to press them with our silly questions.

Only rarely did a comment get thrown our way. I remember a rambling discussion about spinning coming to a halt after one venerable quietly said that, "It wasn't funny being in an inverted spin in a Lancaster at night". Of course we always wanted to know more but the curtain had already shut.

I can understand why my mentors did not wish to dwell on their past but it is also a pity because such stories are worth knowing. The factual information here is fascinating and may be valueable data for historians but the underlying tale is of humanity and of the elations and fears of incredibly young people as they were drawn into the war. Just as valeable as the descriptions of the flying are the comments about families, wives and landladies - all trying in their own way to struggle through those hard times.

I remember Ted saying that he was a rather naive and sheltered 19 years old when he got his papers to report for flying training. Like Reg he couldn't drive so had never ventured much beyond the local village and admitted the warrant to travel to Liverpool for onward processing was equally exciting and daunting.

He said matters took a severe downhill turn upon arriving at Liverpool and having to dash to the conveniences to relieve a nervous bladder. The state of the place was bad enough but he admitted the thing that nearly made him turn and run was the slogan painted on the wall:

It's no use standing on the seat,
Liverpool crabs can jump six feet.

18 months later he was flying Spitfires with 41 Sqn..

Gentlemen - please continue with your excellent articles. To me they are a tribute to all those respected gentlemen I worked with who said so little about their experiences (my father included) - and to the 55,000 (just in Bomber Command alone) who never had the chance to.

regle
17th Jun 2009, 21:16
We were a very short time at RAF Wunstorf. We were initiated into the mechanics of the Air Lift and then moved to Hamburg. From Fuhlsbuttel, the main airfield of Hamburg we would fly three sorties to Berlin (Tegel) and back in twenty four hours. We would fly, without days off, for three weeks, alternating the eight hour shifts three times then we would take our aircraft back to Tarrant Rushton for servicing whilst we had one weeks leave in the U.K. Pay was generous. The whole of the Hotel Baslerhof in the centre of the flattened city was taken over by Flight Refuelling. All our meals were paid for and we were given a daily allowance of "Scrip" BAF ( British Armed Forces) money to pay for our incidental expenses. Spirits at the Hotel Bar were sixpence per generous tot and bottles were six shillings ! Our travel to anywhere in the U.K. was paid each month during our leave and our extremely generous salary was paid every month in to our banks in the U.K.

During the sixteen hours per day that we had free we would sleep and then enjoy the various sessions that would be going on in the bar and the billiard room where an Airlift game called "Bongo" was was always in action. There was an extra white ball worth 10 points and you could pot a colour without playing a red but if you missed it you lost your break points and if you missed the Bongo which had to be played after the Black then you wiped out your entire score. Huge amounts of Scrip would change hands on this and the permanent Poker sessions that were always going on. You would leave to fly your three sorties delivering fuel to Berlin and return to find the party going on but with different people.

The Barman was a monocled ex U boat man named Fritz, needless to say, Once whilst a game of "High Cockalorum" which conisted of a sort of Rugby scrum with bodies piled up on top of one another until the goal of either the ceiling or the complete collapse of everyone was achieved, I found Fritz, regarding the scene and watching one of our Captains, Joe Viatkin, who had broken his neck in a crash but had recovered and was flying on the Airlift. Joe had retained muscular control but after a few drinks this would weaken and his head would roll, horribly for an alarming number of degrees around his neck. Fritz was leaning on the bar with his head in his hands , weeping uncontrollably. "What's up, Fritz ?" I said sympathetically, " How did you B......rds win the war ?" was his tearful reply. Discipline was poor and the near proximity of the Reeperbahn in St. Pauli didn't help. Flight Refuelling brought in a real Dragon of a Station master but even he could not stop one of the wildest coups which was when a crew returning from St.Pauli one night, came across an unattended workers hut near the tramlines and got hold of the oxyacetyline welding equipment inside and spot welded as many tramline points as they could find resulting in the complete stoppage of the tramways system as trams were stranded all over Hamburg.
I found myself renewing acquaintance with many old friends including Ralph Hollis from my class in the USA and whom I had met again in India. He replaced the useless First Officer I had started with. I had just touched down back at Hamburg when I found myself airborne again. THe F/O had pulled all the flaps up as I touched the ground. "What the hell did you do that for ?" I yelled. "I just wanted to see what would happen " he said. He soon found out but only on his way back, in a boat , to England.
Ralph got his own Command very shortly.

ancientaviator62
18th Jun 2009, 09:41
regle,
how strange it must have seemed taking relief to Berlin instead of bombs.
On my last squadron our Luftwaffe exchange officer he knew how we won the war. 'You practice chaos in peacetime ' Who said they don't have a sense of humour.

regle
18th Jun 2009, 10:21
It was a very good feeling and the gratitude of the Berliners was made apparent every time we landed there . We had to wait a couple of hours each time while they defuelled every plane and they made it abundantly clear that the Allies were saving them from the absolutely dreaded complete occupation from the Russians. The action of a certain US Pilot who devised the idea of dropping hundreds of tiny parachuted packets of sweets as he approached the runway was soon eagerly anticipated by the German children and they congregated in their thousands to scoop them up. I think that he was called Carl Halvesen or something like it but he got the nickname of "The Candy Bomber". I met him at a reunion of surviving Air Lift Personnel when the City of Berlin invited us to a week's celebration. He told me that so many US sweet manufacturers caught on with the idea and sent thousands of ready made up parachute packets that it became impossible to take them all. The Berliners lined the streets in pouring rain when we marched to the memorial that they have erected to the many people who lost their lives during the Air Lift and they were crying and shaking our hands so that it became impossible to march and we were almost carried to the site. Berlin put on a magnificent week with wonderful Concerts and Dinners and the atmosphere was electric. I had so many mixed feelings that it became impossible to think straight but I
still got a terrible feeling of dread when, on the last night , there was a big show at Tempelhof Airport and we were seated in the standlike structure . It was completely dark and then, in the distance, we heard the sound of military songs and heard the "stomp, stomp stomp" of marching men in the distance then, with torches blazing they came in front of us to welcome a Douglas Skymaster which had landed in the darkness to symbolise the Airlift. I am afraid that the sheer martial efficiency and the torchlight parade spoiled the whole event for me and many others as I had , literally , goosepimples breaking out and many of my friends had experienced the same feeling. Nothing had changed. Reg.

cliffnemo
18th Jun 2009, 10:26
Discipline was poor and the near proximity of the Reeperbahn in St. Pauli didn't help.
I think I have mastered the art of highlighting quotes at long last, thanks to Fareasterndriver. So just practicing.

Ah,Regle. The Reeperbahn, and San Puali. Could never understand why those ladies wrestled in mud with no clothes on. Surely they would have been more comfortable in dry suits.
Sorry about that, but as I said just practicing.

cliffnemo
18th Jun 2009, 15:47
Goosequill RE PERMALINK 827 and your question about form 700. I searched my records for a sketch of form 700, but could only find one of Form 700 A. which is a 'traveling 7O0 . As I think it will be very similar to Form 700 I have reproduced it below,and note, that not only as Regle says , it was finally signed by the skipper, but ,only after signatures by the F/E, WOP,and bombaimer It must have been signed as the crew entered the aircraft as I remember checking tyres for creep, and such things as pitot head cover removal after arrival at the dispersal .One ambiguous, onerous?, unfair ?instruction, was to check the general aspect of the aircraft, which covers a multitude of sins,this is an all embracing rule. Similar to safety, health and welfare rules 'ladders shall be of suitable construction'. Ask what this means, and you will be told, "if it is of suitable construction it will not fail, if it fails it is of unsuitable construction
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/FORM700225.jpg
And cor blimey, the poor F/E has even signed that the airframe has been inspected. COMMENTS ?
Wish I still had a shorthand typist.

andyl999
18th Jun 2009, 16:35
1) Do quotes?

2) Let's hear some of your Reeperbahn stories then cliff :0)

Regards Andy

Goosequill
19th Jun 2009, 06:31
Hi Cliff,

Thanks once again for yet another fascinating piece of contemporary documentation - these really bring the subject to life and provide rare and valuable detail for those with the historian instinct. Very much appreciated! One small treasure I picked up along the way is a FAA Form 700 for a Vampire, but of course only one set of initials goes on that. Most intriguing, but logical, that the other major trades had to sign for their own areas of responsibility in a Lanc.

Yes - that airframe check does seem to be a nasty catch-all. I have an external checklist for the Lanc which was used at LFS and it is pretty detailed (check static vents clear, check fuel jettison washers concentric - huh, wassat?) but the 'overall aspect' is a beaut.

"Chiefy, I'm not too sure about that line of rivets - the heads look a bit distorted. Any chance of drilling them out and re-popping them while we clean the tailwheel?" (Chiefy remembers some French from thirty years before...)

I see you had a MkIII with Merlins 28s. LFS Feltwell actually considered retaining a number of Mk1 machines for rookie crews as these did not overhead while in the circuit; something that had to be watched in the MkIII. (Ring a bell?) And apparently, at starting, you were not to pump the throttle of the Merlin 28 - presumably BAD THINGS could happen if you did. (The Napier Sabre could have a carburetta fire if its throttle was pumped during start.)

That excellent film 'Night Bombers' remarks that the crew had to get to their aircraft one hour before take off, so they could get through all the checks for an operational detail. I can believe it! (But any longer and the Elsan might have to have been emptied...)

Cheers,

Dave

Icare9
19th Jun 2009, 07:46
Andyl999:
1) Do quotes?
When you reply, above the blank text space are a series of icions. The 3rd from the right on the bottom row is shaped like a speech box with rows of lines.
In the post you wish to quote, click just before the text you want to quote then highlight it for the length of text required and then right click on Copy.
Then start your reply, pasting the copied text where appropriate. Then highlight that copied text again and then click on the icon. If you pass the mouse over the icon it will show the text Wrap [QUOTE] tags around selected text.
Simples Tchh!!
Check out what the other icons do! I also think that there are clear guides already posted as "Stickies" on the forum covering just about every possible thing you need.
PS: I'm no gnarly (!) smart@ss, I've still got to be brave enough to post pictures, yet Reg and cliff are now wizzes themselves!! You're never too old unless you say so!!
Cheers!!

cliffnemo
19th Jun 2009, 11:33
Just messing, Trying to produce a new instruction method.

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/instructionsqoute232.jpg

Does it work?. Could refine it.

EDIT
paste at flashing cursor between quotes

cliffnemo
19th Jun 2009, 16:38
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/KILROY.jpg
WOT NO CLIFFNEMO.
(A drawing often seen on walls etc.The Gentleman was variously known as Kilroy.Chad or Clem ) and was always
followed by 'wot no ?


I will be away for two or three days, going to the East Riding. Hope to be having a home made steak and kidney pie at lunch time tomorrow. In a pub in Millington .
From R.A.F Pocklington Steer 045 degrees for three miles, pop in, and I will buy you a Glenmorgie

ICT_SLB
21st Jun 2009, 03:49
Apart from the large UK contingent just up the road here in Wichita, you may be pleased to know that the RAF Training unit is still remembered each year in Ponca City
http://www.poncacitynews.com/images/ique/0507/memorial053007.html
Interesting links to the DARR School are here PONCA CITY (http://www.kaycounty.info/NCOHA/darrschool.html) and here Ponca City and the surrounding area WW II Aeronautically involved Veterans. (http://www.wwiidarrplaza.com/)

regle
21st Jun 2009, 17:44
The flying was demanding and tough. You were given the call signs of the aircraft ahead of you and the aircraft behind you and it was up to you to keep three minutes separation from these two aircraft relying on their reporting times over the various radio beacons on your defined corridor. As the corridor was very narrow you had to rely on decreasing or increasing speed to enable you to arrive over the beacon with the required three minute separation. At Berlin you were taken over by GCA for the landing, irrespective of the weather conditions. If you had to overshoot, for any reason, it was rare that GCA could fit you in and you had to carry your load back to Fuhlsbuttel.

We were using Tegel in the French Zone. The Sunderlands were using one of the big lakes in Berlin. For some days an old York was always the aircraft ahead of me on takeoff at Hamburg. It would open up all four engines on the brakes before takeoff and then release them and , ever so slowly, gather speed. Each day it seemed to take a few yards more to get airborne and , sure enough one day it disappeared in a huge cloud of white smoke through the far fence. From out of the dense cloud of white appeared the running figures of what appeared to be snowmen. It was the crew, completely unhurt but covered in the flour that was the origin of the smoke and the load that they were carrying. At least they had not been in the Hastings which were carrying up to 9 tonnes of coal !

Our second son, Anthony was born in March 1949 whilst I was out in Germany. He was completely spoiled by the many children that we had as our neighbours in out flat in Spencer House , Albion Ave. SW8. Toys and other so called luxuries were still unobtainable in the U.K. but many things were on sale in the N.A.A.F.I. shops scattered throughout the B.A.O.R. or British Army of Occupation of the Rhine and we had full access to them as we could pay in the requisite "Scrip" that was being issued to us. Few people realise how austere the U.K. was at that time so many years after the end of hostilities. The meat ration pp was about two small chops per week. Through the NAAFI I was able to buy some toys for our new son and even a real pedal Jeep for my eldest son, Peter. Things like lovely bone china tea services were obtainable that could not be seen in British shops and I still have an absolutely perfect replica of Guy Gibson's Logbook, published by His Majesty's Stationery Office and sold at the NAAFI for a very short while for seven and sixpence.

Things were even tougher in Germany, itself. Things as banal as Cigarettes, Coffee and Cocoa replaced the Mark as currency. These were eagerly sought after by the German crews who became our friends as they did such a splendid job of defuelling our planes so rapidly and we would bring back what we could when we returned from the UK every three weeks. Once, about ten o'clock at night I was walking to catch a tram to Waterloo Station where I would catch my train to return to Tarrant Rushton. I was stopped by two policemen in a police car. They asked me what I was carrying in my suitcase. I showed them that it ws full of cigarettes and Bournville Cocoa and explained that I was on my way back to Germany. "Hop in" they said and took me all the way to Waterloo Station.

The aircraft that we were flying were known as Lancastrians but they were in fact Lancaster bombers with the turrets removed and a streamlined nose cone fitted. It was used for a while on the England - Australia route carrying some eight passengers in doubtful comfort. As we were carrying all the petrol and oil to Berlin it was fitted with a huge internal tank down the centre of the fuselage from the centre of the main spar, which always had to be climbed over , almost to where the Elsan and the rear turret were located in the Lancaster. I think that they removed both for the airlift. As it was only a short flight from Hamburg to Berlin some of the wing tanks were also used to carry motor fuel. A total of about 2,500 gallons of motor fuel were carried this way by each aircraft.
The result was a flying petrol tanker and was the reason that we were so well paid. In actual fact, through careful selection of flying and ground personnel and the insistence of a comprehensive three weekly check of the aircraft at Tarrant Rushton, Flight Refuelling never had a fatal accident on the actual Airlift although one was lost when it flew into a hilltop in fog on a return flight to Tarrant with the loss of six crew members , Some of them including my Irish friend from India , Mick Cusack , were returning as passengers on leave. Many other Companies and Air Forces lost planes and lives but the show of strength in the air almost certainly prevented the Third World War and invaluable experience was gained in the the controlling of large numbers of concentrated aircraft and Instrument Flying and controlled spacing of aircraft.
On the 17th, July 1949 I made my last flight to Berlin; It was my 118th. sortie and then flew back to England in a Dakota to a world that was suddenly flooded with redundant Pilots all looking for jobs in an austere economy that had not yet geared itself to Air travel.

pulse1
21st Jun 2009, 21:51
regle,

Thanks for more fascinating insights into those days.

In my FR days, when they flew Meteors and Canberras at Tarrant, I was told many stories about the Berlin airlift days, In particular, I was told, that when the Lancasters came back to Tarrant for servicing, the residues of petrol in the tanks were quickly drained and shared out amongst the staff. A new security chief tried to stop this practice and got the sack.

Your reference to the accident reminded me of one of my visits to Tarrant, during very poor weather with drizzle, low cloud and poor vis, I was amazed to see a Canberra coming into land. As far as I recall, there were no navaids there at all.

regle
21st Jun 2009, 22:04
They would have to be very quick. Customs and Excise had their own VHF set and were always first to greet the incoming plane with their cars ....and their Jerrycans. But they were always very lenient with the crews ! Cameras were very popular and even a BMW Motor bike or two ! I thought about putting it in my original thread but was too discreet and then I saw what you had written ! Is it Pulse as in beans etc ? Just wondered, Reg.

pulse1
22nd Jun 2009, 08:32
Is it Pulse as in beans etc ?

No. More to do with short bursts of electric current, like 3200 amps for 10 milliseconds.

rmventuri
23rd Jun 2009, 08:09
Quote I've never heard of a "Crash Signal" before. What does it mean (assuming that as it didn't happen to either of you, you might still have known about it.) Did each aircraft have a continuous tone that, when it crashed cut off, or was a signal somehow sent automatically?

Kevin,
The answer to our question (#857) seems to be pigeons - so was the technology thru to '43. I'm reading Snaith Days - Life with Squadron 51 1942-45. Quoting

When the time came the aircrew proceeded to the locker room to be kitted out and collect parachutes. In addition, during 1943, the Wireless Operator collected the aircraft pigeons in their containers. The purpose of these pigeons was for release with a message on their legs if the aircraft ditched in the sea.

I can imagine in most cases this did not work too well

Cheers
Rodger

Icare9
23rd Jun 2009, 15:07
rmventuri: I did wonder about pigeons, however the Form 700 is printed as Crash Signal Received dated (not timed) 4/12 which I would interpret as a "positive" in that a "Crash Signal" HAD been received........
It's waaaaay before my time so we'd need an "oldster" to clarify if the NON-RETURN of their pigeon(s) would be taken to be definite proof of a crash, inasmuch as no member of the crew had been able to release the pigeons.

cliffnemo
23rd Jun 2009, 16:25
[QUOTE]Crash Signal Received (4/12) [/QUOTE

Rmventuri, The only crash signal I ever heard was when the skipper shouted emergency, emergency , jump, jump, but no one could move. Details later.

As you are now aware, I am back home. An excellent weekend , with terrific hospitality.

Will try to catch up, and remark/reply on previous topics tomorrow onwards.

andyl999
24th Jun 2009, 08:37
Reg just reading "Uncommon Valour" written by a 51 pilot A.G Goulding, destined to be sent onto you but here are some of the names to jerk those memory cells:-

WC Pickard
Willie Tait
WC Wikerson
WC Tom Sawyer
Vic Scott
There was a crew called "The Flying Circus"?
Pubs Kings Head & The Four Horseshoes
Flt Lt M McCreanor

etc etc

regle
24th Jun 2009, 10:18
They are names to conjure with and even revere. I was at a 51 Sqdn. reunion a few years ago and was standing on the Tarmac, talking to a present day Sgt. who had said how good it was to talk to wartime members of the Sqdn. and get their views and experiences. We were awaiting the arrival of the Red Arrows and I suddenly spotted one of our "Veterans" standing in front of a hangar. He was wearing a shabby old mac and a cap.. "You see that chap ?" I said, pointing him out "Well that is the chap that sank the "Tirpitz" in a Norwegian Fjord back in 43/44 " It was Willy Tait. The Sgt. was dumbfounded. "He looks so ordinary!" He said. They were far from ordinary when it counted.
"F for Freddy Pickard", One of the first CO's of 51 and made famous as the pilot of the Wellington in one of the first wartime films "Target for Tonight". He was shot down when leading the raid on Amiens Prison
that helped many POW's to escape their pending execution.
"Wilky" Wilkerson, the revered CO of 51 and the newly formed 578 SQdn. (Formed from C Flight 51 Sqdn . He was the most charismatic man I have ever met, and I met some ! He is also the reason that I am still alive today as he summarily "screened " me when I returned from Berlin on my 29th. Op , the day that my first child was born on 28th. Jan. 1944 saying that "I had done enough ". He was ,tragically, killed when a passenger in a Baltimore that crashed in 1944.
I could go on and on.... It was a time for exceptional men to stand up and be counted and I was fortunate and privileged to serve with so many of them. Reg

cliffnemo
24th Jun 2009, 16:54
Rmventuri. I think the word signal was used as a general term for any message whether by radio, telephone or written. So crash signal received by R.A.F Casualty Section could have received the message from another section, as distinct from an aircraft.

Andy I dare not describe the Reeperbahn, not only might it upset those of tender years, but how do you know there is not a Mrs Moderator.

Goosequil . I never experienced a Merlin overheating, possibly we were kept moving.

I visited John( Elvington Halifax) and spent some time going through his memorabilia, but apart from the fact that he trained in Rhodesia, his experience was similar to mine, and already covered.

andyl999
25th Jun 2009, 11:29
Cliff with now unstinting research did you know that the Reeperbahn is alternatively called " die sündige Meile"?

So far as Mrs Uberseer is concerned watch out for the current PC (politically correct) problems of treating all sexes the same!

Goosequill
25th Jun 2009, 17:04
Hi Cliff,

Thanks for your comment about Merlins not being prone to overheating in your experience - the comment may indeed have been made about trainee pilots not getting things moving quickly enough on a hot day. Thinks: much training was carried in daytime; possibly continuous high boost and revs during Circuits and Landings on summer days might have led to the comment?

I did some flying in the USA years ago, and after a fair amount of 'hot and high' I found myself automatically leaning the mixture for max power once back in the UK - even while taxying on a hot day - something which distressed youthful instructors, who thought it was supposed to be an on/off switch...

Ho hum...

Cheers,

Dave

rmventuri
25th Jun 2009, 20:42
Having the service history detail along with promotion history as been a great aid in approximating the date and likely location of my father and uncles old photographs. Since WO2 did not exist in the RAF would RCAF aircrew of this rank still where this rank on their uniforms while stationed with the RAF? I have noticed in the Snaith ORB's Doug was referred to as F/Sgt when he was WO2?

Cliff - one question on Harrogate. Did all the men stay at the Majestic Hotel or would some be billeted with nearby families? I'm trying to track something down.

cliffnemo
26th Jun 2009, 10:33
Cliff - one question on Harrogate. Did all the men stay at the Majestic Hotel or would some be billeted with nearby families?

RMVENTURI Not sure, but I think all airmen were billeted at the Majestic Hotel I can remember men being bileted out at Heaton Park, but not at Harrogate.

With reference to the rank of W/O (R.A.F) In my pay book is an entry T.W/O. Think T represents temporary, as all wartime non regular ranks were called ,'War substantive'

As usual. Given with all good faith, but not guarantee

regle
26th Jun 2009, 10:36
The coordination of the stream was a masterpiece of planning and we only had the'phone to do it ! Group T/O times were allocated to meld with other Groups and PFF ,and departure points, times and altitudes were coordinated within Groups. From then on times to get to different assigned altitudes were calculated according to types of aircraft, loads and speeds. From this would develop the times and altitudes over the different check points on the assigned route so that the times for the PFF to drop their T/I and T/P (Track Indicator and Turning Point) flares would be calculated. I was stationed at Wyton with PFF 109 Sqdn . for a brief time to learn about "Oboe" and was able to see the organisation from the Groups and PFF. There was a lot of "Infighting" went on and Squadrons were usually, very unhappy at the perceived "poaching" of their best crews for PFF. They "moaners" got short shrift from two of the toughest individuals that I have ever met; Don Bennett PFF Chief and "Butch" Harris.
Regarding the sightings of Aircraft being shot down; I, like many Captains, did not report or log these . Frankly, and coldheartedly, it became so commonplace an event that I deemed it bad for the morale to dwell upon it. ;It took time and upset the vital concentration required for
the eternal watch for enemy fighters and friendly ,but equally fatal "Near Misses". Also there were so many other things that looked like aircraft explosions but were not. The rumour of "Scarecrow Flak" made to simulate an aircraft exploding was rife and always denied by the powers that be to be nonsense but was widely observed . There was so much going on that it was impossible to do your job properly if you allowed yourself to be diverted by anything. Once again "The Price of Safety is Eternal Vigilance ".
Lastly, for any of you that really want to get their teeth into the very smallest details of a minute by minute account from the start to finish of a Squadron's day of "Ops"(At least eight detailed chapters ) then you should get hold of a copy of "Snaith Days", Life with 51 Sqdn. 1942-45" by Keith Ford. ISBN 0 9517965 1 8. I have never ever seen such attention to detail anywhere. It is not cheap (£13) but it is all there with drawings and plans of equipment and routes even airfield lighting (Drem) systems. It starts with a tour around the Station and you feel that you are there (Over 2,000 personnel !) and even describes the very beds and stoves that we had. I assure you that I have no financial interest whatsoever but you will be surprised at the depth of detail even down to how the sewage was disposed of ! Reg.

thegypsy
26th Jun 2009, 13:12
Regle

Interested to see your mention of the cordination of the stream. Just wondering why so many found they were being bombed from above by their own side.I guess with airfields spread all over the place it was not that easy to ensure those low altitude aircraft like Stirlings did not arrive at the same time as those above in Halifax and Lancasters.

My father was a Flt Lt Stirling pilot and was shot down by a night fighter over Belgium at a place 3k NW of Helchteren.Perhaps you know where that is?

He had a second dickey that night who he was showing the ropes to, a 19 year old Sgt from the RCAF. All of his crew were 10 years younger than my father who was an old man approaching 31! Buried initially at St Truiden then Heverlee cemetry after the war.

regle
26th Jun 2009, 17:41
Helchteren , in eastern Belgium ,is a small place about twenty odd miles south of the Dutch City of Eindhoven, Hasselt, a Belgian town is very nearby. Helchteren is on the road between Hasselt and Eindhoven.
When you learn that the concentration of British Aircraft, alone , got to the extent that six hundred and more bombers were taking twenty minutes to fly over the targets, you would ask why more casualties were not caused from "friendly bombing". I have landed more than once with incendiary bombs still sticking out of the top surface of my wings and, in an event related in a previous thread, had a very large bomb go through the roof and out through the empty bomb bay without exploding. The silhouette proved that the bomb was not yet pointing downwards so the aircraft had been just above me...we were bombing in cloud on to flares!
Sorry to hear that your Father was lost in action. I was thankful that I did not fly Stirlings. We used to see them below around 12,000 ft. getting pasted by everything. Reg.

Inspector Clueless
26th Jun 2009, 22:58
Cliff & Reg,
Just discovered this thread whilst on a nightstop-FANTASTIC stuff been at it for an hour non stop.

I have an uncle who is also 86 ex PFF Lanc(582 Sqn) pilot saw service in 1945-I took him to see the East Kirby Lanc last year and got him onboard for the first time in 60 plus years.He lives in Hull where I noticed your house was bombed.

The stories came with some prompting-nipping "down the back for a smoke" on a daylight return whilst "George & the Flt Eng" flew and the fact that the props were so well balanced in the hangar that a cigarette paper placed on one would cause movement...hes not an emotional man but said that the sight and sounds of the Lanc brought many faces into focus and memories.

Keep your wonderful script coming-its outstanding reading for us younger aviators whose future you helped give us.

Great stuff,IC:ok:

Wander00
27th Jun 2009, 09:31
Best weekend of my RAF caree(s) was bein involved as OC Admin at Wyton in the organisation of the Pathfinder 50th Anniversary in 1992. It was huge priovilege to meet so many ordinary people who had done extraordinary things. Don Bennett's widow Ly was with us for that weekend and she was absolutely magic - one of my young squadron leaders was so captivated I thought he was going to ask her for a date! We were talking about what the pre war (by then the execs') MQ had been used for during the war, and then she asked if the tennis court was still there - "I played tennis on those courts with Anthony Eden", she reminisced.

Without exception all the Pathfinders were so modest about their courage and achievements - what a weekend, and so humbling.

Wander00

Wander00
27th Jun 2009, 09:33
Add "r" to make "careers" - never could proof-read

Apologies, especially if my Basic Staff Course tutor is out there!

Wander00

regle
27th Jun 2009, 11:41
I had some of the best time of my service life at Wyton, too. It was my first taste of a 'peacetime' built station when I was commissioned and I wallowed in the luxury of a well built Officer's Mess after the Nissan huts of previous stations. 51 Sqdn. still have their Xmas Dinner's there and it hasn't changed a bit. I still expect to find the Station Adjutant fast asleep , behind his "Times" in the deep armchair by the fireplace. I remember one night in the Mess we were having a good party and the Station Padre built himself a 'Jacob's Ladder of chairs and tables, climbed precariously (and well fuelled) to the top, stretched out his arms and cried "And the loving arms shall receive me" and launched himself into space. And the loving arms didn't receive him and he broke his collar bone !
I met Don Bennett and Ly a few times , after the war, at the Grosvenor House reunions and also ran into him, not literally, during the Berlin Airlift when he was running a couple of Tudors that he had bought. He asked me to look in the Hangars the next time that I was in Schipol, as he had left a 'Consol' (civvy Oxford) there and had forgotten about it. As this was a matter of years ,I never took it any further. I wonder if it is still there?
Those were the days my friend. Best regards, Reg

tow1709
27th Jun 2009, 19:54
I saw Peter over in France a couple of weeks ago, and shared a bottle or two of the local Burgundy. He seemed to be very well, and was pleased that his memoirs were being well received. I have been a bit busy recently, so I haven't been able to post for a while.

Here is part 6. I hope to be able to post some pictures soon.

Our days were fully occupied with ground school, flying instruction, physical training, and drill. Ground school included 'Theory of Flight' which I found fascinating and which no doubt helped me appreciate what the aeroplane was doing and, more important, what it might do if I mishandled the controls. Navigation was another interesting course which I managed very well since it involved geometry and trigonometry, both of which I have always enjoyed.

More practical work was anything from engine starting to rifle shooting - I became quite a good shot with a 0.303 rifle. One day a film crew was visiting the station and I happened to be on the firing range being taught to fire the Vickers belt fed machine gun. I had fired a few short bursts when the RCAF sergeant instructor told me to fire away and keep firing until he tapped me on the shoulder. This was for the benefit of the camera! I naturally did as I was told and thoroughly enjoyed myself. I don't know how long the sustained burst was, but it seemed to go on and on. When I finally felt the tap on my shoulder, the gun, which was cooled by a water jacket, was sizzling and spitting with the heat and even the sergeant thought it a good idea to retire and let it cool off!

One of the ground exercises we were taught but which, fortunately, I only had to do a couple of times, was 'swinging the prop' to start the engine. Most of the time this duty was performed by the ground staff and of course, later on, the aircraft engines had other means of starting. With both the 'Tiger Moth' and the 'Fleet Finch' however there were no such refinements and the engine was started by the old fashioned hand swinging method. There was a very strict system of procedure and method of standing so that you did not risk injury either from a backfire or falling into the started propeller! I never heard of anybody being badly hurt when starting an engine by this method but it always struck me as a very dicey operation!

As the flying instruction progressed, the ground instruction on navigation was translated into actual cross country work and we flew many triangular cross country exercises. My instructor used to sit back in his seat reading a newspaper during these cross-country flights, occasionally taking a glance over the side to check our position. He obviously knew the countryside like the back of his hand and a quick scan was sufficient to tell him if I was straying too far from the desired course.
Instrument flying was another interesting but sometimes frustrating exercise. Although we all did quite a few hours on the ground in the 'Link' trainer, a very basic flight simulator, which gave something of the feel of flying an aircraft, there was no feeling quite like actually flying the aircraft 'under the hood'. This expression was literally what we did since the rear cockpit had a green canvas folding hood which could be brought forward over the pupil pilot's head and secured to the front of the cockpit coming. When this was in position you were in a dim green coloured world with no outside view and was very much like flying in thick cloud.

The flight instruments were the very basic 'needle, ball and airspeed'. No artificial horizon or gyro compass at this stage! The whole knack of keeping control of the aircraft under these circumstances was to totally ignore your feelings of orientation and to scan the three instruments in regular rotation. "Needle, ball, airspeed, needle, ball, airspeed" was the litany of the time. The needle was the needle of the 'Turn and Bank' instrument, and gave the rate of turn. The ball was the ball of the same instrument, a small black ball in a curved glass tube, which showed if you were skidding out or slipping in to a turn. The art was to keep it in the middle at all times. The airspeed of course was just what it says. I must admit that I acquired the nickname 'Airspeed' during this time since my instructors long suffering voice would come over the intercom "Airspeed Brett, Airspeed" and I would hastily realize that I had been ignoring this and we were just about to fall out of the sky! Fortunately we never did actually stall except intentionally.

The trickiest part of instrument flying instruction was 'Recovery from Unusual Positions' an exercise the name of which led to quite a few ribald jokes. Sgt Farrell had quite a few tricks up his sleeve for this exercise. The first one, which really caused all his pupils trouble at first, was to throw the aircraft all over the sky and finish up with all the instruments gyrating wildly but the aircraft flying absolutely straight and level! The object of this was to teach us not to try to react too quickly to the indications of the instruments but to try to analyze the situation before taking too hasty an action. It took me a couple of these flights to latch on to the trick but, as soon as Sgt. Farrell realized that I had, he changed his tactics. This time we would finish up with the aircraft in a shallow spiral dive. After being handed control it took a few seconds to realize that the airspeed was slowly increasing and that the aircraft was in a gentle turn. The natural reaction was to ease back on the control column in order to reduce the airspeed. This had the weird effect of increasing both the airspeed and the rate of turn! The correct action of course was to move the control column sideways to level the wings, correct with the rudder to get the ball back to the middle, and then ease back on the stick to pull out of the dive.

It gradually became easier to get back control of the aircraft after these manoeuvres but, even so, the final trick of handing over the aircraft at the top of a loop with practically no airspeed was startling. The first reaction was to push the stick firmly forward to stop the airspeed dropping any more only to find that one was 'hanging on the straps' and the aircraft was falling out of the sky with no airspeed at all!. Luckily the Fleet Finch was almost as forgiving as the Tiger Moth and the aircraft first stalled upside down, and then fell backwards, completing the loop and ending up in a steep dive from which recovery was easy.

tow1709
28th Jun 2009, 07:12
If this has worked correctly, you should be able to see (or link to) a "team photo" of ITW5 in Torquay, taken sometime in the winter of 1941/2.

Peter Brett (who, incidentally, is 86 years old tomorrow 29th June) is at the left end of the second row from the back.

http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss299/tow1709/ITW_Torquay1941.jpg?t=1246172570

I followed all the hints given by Cliff and others, but I am still not confident the picture will appear!

cliffnemo
28th Jun 2009, 09:47
ICT SLB. It is very nice to know that the Poncans still remember . The Americans treat, and remember their veterans better than some countries I know
. Ah, Witchita, reminds me of buying my Hickock belt and cowboy boots in that fair city.

Thanks for the two interesting links. One is signed Paula, ,Paula Dennison ?, who wrote the book 'The R.A.F in Oklahoma.

regle
30th Jun 2009, 21:37
To those of you who have never heard of this ancient adage, it refers to the time when all transport, and in particular, the annual splendid "Lord Mayor's Show" was horse drawn. " Muck cart" was the end of the proverb. You will see what I mean as you go along.
On the 17th. July 1949 I made the last of 113 sorties from Hamburg and RAF Wunstorf to Berlin and back with a load of Motor Fuel and then eventually flew a Dakota back to an England that was suddenly flooded with Pilots all looking for jobs. My Log book( No2) showed that I had 2,793 Flying hours.
Flying was regarded as a dangerous and a very expensive luxury that could only be undertaken by comparatively well off people. As a result there were few, if any vacancies for pilots to be had in aviation and I had to take a succession of various poorly paid and very dull jobs. I sold toilet rolls around the small Hotels and Boarding Houses of Padddington and Victoria. The only good thing that came of that is I practically obtained "The Kowledge" sought by London taxi Drivers by driving a small van around the various Hotel and "Pension" districts. I had a brief spell as a counter assistant in Bewlay's pipe and tobacco shop at the side of the Savoy Hotel in the Strand and then salvation came in the shape of an advertisement in "The Aeroplane" magazine requiring people to be trained as Air Traffic Controllers. ( I hope that you are taking note of all this Kookabat , Jabberwok and Co.!).
I went for an interview at Ad Astral House in Kingsway, I think, and was lucky enough to be recognised from my Captains' Check Pilot days at Aldermaston by several of the Board of Examiners. I was accepted for training at the School for Air Traffic Controllers at Hurn, near Bournemouth, but it would be three months before my course would start and I had to do something to make ends meet until then.
I think that the worst job was that of a "Tallyman" in the Croydon area. A Tallyman was employed to collect the pennies and sixpences from the poor customers of firms who sold household goods, clothes etc. from door to door on the "never, never" as Hire Purchase was called then. This was the very bottom of the barrel and I shall never forget the poverty that I saw and the stories that I was told as to why they couldn't pay the odd pennies and threeoences that they owed each miserable week. Thank God, it didn't last long because flying began to pick up a little and I had kept valid the B Licence that I had obtained by swotting in a school in Manchester ( and watching Compton and Edrich score lots of runs at Old Trafford for England).
I now started to freelance at Croydon where various pre-war firms were starting up again using De Havilland Rapides, Oxfords, and even single-engined planes like the Proctor etc. which I rapidly swotted up and added to my licence. The two main firms were Olleys and Mortons both of them solid and well known as pre-war pioneers. The Chief Pilot of Mortons was Captain Bebb, one of the true pre war charter pilots. The firms only employed one or two pilots on a regular basis and relied on freelance ones in the summer and at weekends. The regular pay was thirty shillings per hour and was very welcome especially as the odd trip to Le Touqet, Le Zoute etc. enabled you to bring back the odd steak or two as well as some wine. Yes, meat was still strictly rationed in 1950 !
It was during this period that I got talking to a chap in a pub in the West End of London who told me that the B.B.C. were looking for someone to replace an Announcer for the Sports News on the BBC World Service. He gave me the address of a Mr. Lotbiniere to contact. One of the tallest men that I had ever seen greeted me courteously and arranged for an immediate voice test . "Lobby", as everyone called him, told me that the job was mine on a temporary basis at the really princely sum of fifteen guineas a week. I was to read the Sports news for the World Service at 0645 in the morning for fifteen minutes and then, again at 1900 hrs. As there was no public transport at 5 in the morning when I had to leave our flat in Clapham, the BBC sent a taxi to get me to Portland Place. I had to take the mundane tram for the later one in the evening.

kookabat
1st Jul 2009, 05:08
I hope that you are taking note of all this Kookabat , Jabberwok and Co.!
Taking note, and hanging on every word, Reg. Fantastic stuff.

Did you end up actually doing ATC?

cliffnemo
1st Jul 2009, 08:49
ICARE 9.

Hi Kevin,

As instructed by your P.M am posting POST 900. Remind me when it is 1000.

CLIFF.

Icare9
1st Jul 2009, 11:48
Cheat!! I thought at least a pearl of wisdom and report on your visit!!
Still, keep it simple, stupid, is a good maxim!!
Cheers

regle
1st Jul 2009, 11:55
Wait and see ! Regle

BEagle
1st Jul 2009, 12:18
tow1709, here's your photo:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/torquay1941.jpg

cliffnemo
1st Jul 2009, 16:39
After Rmventuri’s question re W/O versus W/O 2 I located my pay book to remind me of term used (T W/O) , and as it is still on my desk decided to scan it as below. Warts and all.
It surprised me I didn’t fill in the last will and testament section, and can only assume I thought ‘It can’t happen to me ‘ ,like every one else at that time.
Or could it be , I had now’t to leave ?
Page one shows I was attested on 8/3/42 , working back this means I attended Padgate for ‘entrance exams’ about six months earlier and the recruiting office approximately ?/8/41.
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/PAYBOOKWILL226.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/PAYBOOKP34228.jpg
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/PAYBOOKP1227.jpg




INSPECOR CLUELESS. Did your uncle (pilot) live in Hull during the May blitz. If so was the blitz the reason he volunteered for aircrew training ? Could you ask him and let us know the results. The reason I ask , is that Hull was heavily bombed during the war but for some unknown reason only referred to as a N.E town. The score was. Most heavily bombed London, Liverpool, Hull. Most deaths per square mile, London , Hull, Liverpool. This bombing made us youngsters very annoyed , causing many to volunteer and take the King’s shilling. During the May 1941 blitz, for three nights, a lot of people walked out of the town with their bedding. They had to exit before the army stopped movement, in or out until dawn. On one of these nights, the rescue services were ordered to remain in shelters until the ‘all clear’.

kookabat
1st Jul 2009, 21:22
This bombing made us youngsters very annoyed , causing many to volunteer and take the King’s shilling.

This raises an interesting point. English aircrew like yourself certainly might have had this type of 'motivational' experience to encourage enlistment - but the men who came from Australia and New Zealand and South Africa and Canada and all of those places likely wouldn't have had any direct experience of being under bombing. They were of course all volunteers as well - so why did they join up?

regle
1st Jul 2009, 22:32
I shall never forget the first time that I sat before a microphone and the red light went on and I realised that I was about to speak to millions of people across the world. Although it was a wonderful feeling it was very frightening and I am sure that my voice quavered through those first few minutes. Then I thought of my Auntie Muriel, my Father's sister, who was a pioneer of Radio before the war. The BBC was called 2LO and she was Auntie Muriel of "The Chidren's Hour" and used to broadcast every day at 5.15 from a small studio that, I think, was over the Kardomah cafe in Liverpool. There were several "Aunties" and "Uncle Mac" and they became very famous. "Voyages with Romany" was another of her programmes and she had her own page on a Saturday in the "Liverpool Echo ", "Auntie Muriel's Treasure Chest " with "Wafer the Cat ". So I used to think that I was following in her footsteps a little. It was Wimbledon time and I dealt with such tongue twisters as Jaroslav Drobny and others that I could not even spell let alone pronounce.
I am still amazed to recall that I carried on with my free lancing flying during the day, always getting back in good time for my evening broadcast and never missing a single one, which considering the English weather and the fact that I was flying pre-war planes, many of them single engined, was pretty amazing. I was taking well known jockeys such as "Scobie" Breasley to race meetings all over the country and would ask them if they had any tips. I always got the same answer "You don't think I am coming here for ####### nothing do you ?" And nothing was what I usually ended up with.
One day, I was told by Captain Bebb that I was to take a gentleman from Croydon to Yeadon, now Leeds Airport and that I was lucky to take him and that I was to scrupuously comply with every request that the client woud make.; The gentleman ,in question, looked harmless enough, in his sixties, somewhat old fashioned but impeccably dressed and extremely courteous. We were in a Rapide and he seated himself just behind me. We had the aircraft to ourselves and after about fifteen minutes he said "That's a nice looking cloud over there. Would you go round it, please ?" So we did and he was making contented little noises to himself. That was to be the pattern during the next part of the flight then he suddenly announced that it was "time for a spot of lunch, don't you think ?"
There was no catering on board so I had to find a civil aerodrome nearby, not an easy task those days. I eventually found Anstey, near Coventry where we landed and had a nice lunch for which he paid, leaving
a tip that was nearly the cost of the meal. When we eventually landed at Yeadon I saw a beautiful old chauffeur driven Daimler driving out over the grass airfield to meet us. It was bottle green with highly polished brass headlights. The Chauffeur, also in bottle green livery, opened the door of the Rapide, helped my passenger into the Daimler then came to me with a silver tray on which were two recently laundered huge white five pound notes. I protested that the payment for the flight was not to be made to me but was told, gravely, in a broad Yorkshire accent "This, Captain, is thy pourboire and my employer wishes to thank thee for a right pleasant journey". I have to admit, shamefully, that I have forgotten his name but not the memory of courteous and graceful living and an age of transport that has gone for ever. Ten pounds was a lot of money and together with the six or seven pounds for the flight was more than the BBC was paying me for a weeks broadcasting.
The DH Rapide, like all De Havilland aeroplanes, not only looked good but flew well also. It was the maid of all work for the Charter Companies.
If I remember rightly it took nine passengers and was used extensively on the Scottish Isles service by BEA as they were then known. The Pilot occupied a single seat in the nose and the passengers sat behind him with no dividing door. A well known character of a Captain, who shall be nameless, used sometimes to sit, whilst the aircraft was still loading, in one of the rear seats dressed in a shabby old raincoat while the handful of passengers boarded. He would sit there, muttering away and looking at his watch . "Where's the Pilot ? If he's not here in two minutes then I'm going to do something about it ! Right. That's it" and would stride up to the nose, start the engines and take off with his paralysed , startled passengers. The same Captain, when the new Viking came in to service would board the plane after the passengers were all aboard, walk up the aisle to the cockpit, ostentatiously carrying a book with "How to Fly in Six Easy Lessons" emblazoned on it's cover in huge letters. During the flight he would come back into the cabin and search around the legs of one of the passengers, usually a pretty girl, saying "Excuse me, but have you seen a loose page anywhere about ? You see it's the landing...."
One of the freelance pilots at Croydon, later to be a colleague on the Berlin Air Lift, made a forced landing just short of the "Runway" that was a very short piece of concrete of some hundred yards length leaving you to finish your landing run on grass. He landed on a football field on the other side of Purley Way scattering the players who ran for their lives. When the Rapide came to a stop he stuck his head out of the side window "Phwats the score then ? he asked amiably. Needless to say he was one of the many Irish pilots freelancing at the time.
My A.T.C. course was due to start and I reluctantly, said goodbye to the B.B.C. It was impossible to break into the very tight circle of permanently engaged staff no matter how hard I tried. For years afterwards small cheques would keep coming in from the B.B.C when some of my news bulletins had been used in a programme of some sorts. It had been a wonderful experience and I met some fascinating people. One of the most interesting was a lady to whom you referred any problem with pronunciation, no matter what language. She would give you the correct pronunciation immediately without referring to any of the thousands of books with which she was surrounded. Mistakes were rare those days although one famous Sports Commentator is reputed to have made a "spoonerism" of the "Royal Hunt Cup" ! The most famous one was a broadcast in 1937 of the Naval Review at Spithead. I was fifteen at the time and was listening to the Commentary. What had happened was the Comentator was an ex naval Lt. Commander "Tommy" Woodroofe and the commentary was to be on the evening Royal Review but, unfortunately the commentary was being made from his old ship H.M.S Nelson and his
former friends had right royally entertained him in the Wardroom prior to the broadcast. The result was "The Fleets lit up. Hundredshes of little ffairy lights ..but theyve all gone out... The fleets ddisapp..gone " In those days there was no producer watching every second . The engineers were the only ones and they let him go on for about four drunken minutes before they had "a technical hitch " . I called my Father to come and listen and we were helpless. Next day the headlines in every Newspaper was "The FLeets Lit Up" and to be "Lit Up" passed in to the language as an euphemism for being drunk. In these days of Jonathan Ross etc. it is hard to imagine how an inebriated announcer could make such an effect but the BBC was sacrosanct. Sir John Reith, the Director General was an absolute martinet. Announcers had to wear "suitable apparel" even though it was Radio. Local accents were unknown and Mr Ross would have been beheaded. The B.B.C. "apologised" for the "unfortunate occurence" saying that The Lt.Cdr. was "tired and emotional". Get a full
version of the whole speech by putting "The fleets lit up get on clip in fall off" on Google ( I think but don't promise !).

kookabat
2nd Jul 2009, 02:49
Ahh De Havilland! I had a quick trip in a Rapide a couple of months back - the Classic Wings machine out of Duxford:

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee27/kookabat/Euro09/11%20-%2002MAY09%20Duxford%20and%20Cambridge/02MAY09038.jpg

From the age of the Rapide to the age of the Constellation and the Comet and the B707... the Golden Age of aviation.

And what do we have today? The A380.

As impressive as that particular aeroplane is, somehow it's not quite the same, is it??? :(

cliffnemo
2nd Jul 2009, 10:49
Sorry about this folks, but experimenting, improving previous scan. If successful will reproduce the other pages.
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/PBLARGE4235.jpg

cockney steve
2nd Jul 2009, 12:46
Reg. Thanks for another cracking post :)
So atmospheric, I can just see the Daimler (many readers will not know that it was the Royal car of choice,in those days )

You paint a wonderful image of the chauffeur, with his wonderfully arcane language, "pourboire", indeed,............. I can just remember the white Fivers-we had a sweet-shop/tobacconists and the only customers who got that much in their pay-packet,were the local police-sergeant and the foreman at the local garage/filling station. He would have had about 15 men under his charge.

Cliff. That book has certainly had a beating, hasn't it! your reposted picture is excellent. thank you .

After 64 years of carrying it about, it's not surprising it's dog-eared.

Yes, I noted "youwill always carry.......

Perhaps they never anticipated you retiring from the Service. :}

regle
2nd Jul 2009, 15:52
Cliff. I cannot remember ever having a pay book or any other sort of document after we came back to to England from the States. I wonder whether we were really ever re-mobilised as I know that we were told that we were no longer in rhe RAF but were civilians when we left England. I wonder what would have happened if we had just walked out ! I think that I can guess ! All the same , all these documents that you show so well are completely new to me. I know that I never had any problems with my pay. Funny, eh ? Regle.

cliffnemo
3rd Jul 2009, 10:54
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/PBLARGE5236.jpg

cliffnemo
3rd Jul 2009, 15:09
Cliff. I cannot remember ever having a pay book or any other sort of document after we came back to to England from the States. I wonder whether we were
I wonder if this is because you trained initially under the Arnold scheme, whereas I trained later under the Empire Air Training scheme. As far as I remember we carried our paybook, and 1250 (identity card) at all times during our stay in Canada and the U.S of A. I don't remember ever being discharged from the R.A.F, demobbed yes, but at the time was told I was still on reserve, and never received any further communication. Perhaps we are still 'in' ?

cliffnemo
3rd Jul 2009, 15:29
They were of course all volunteers as well - so why did they join up?

Good question Kookabat, but don't know the answer Think many Australians and New Zealanders had antecedents from Europe and still felt some loyalty, or annoyed at the treatment of Jews and Poles. An Uncle of mine Captain Fred Emmett M.C emigrated to N.Z after 1919, think he would be a bit annoyed but too old to volunteer in W.W.2. Are there any aircrew associations near you who you could email and ask to contribute to this thread. Maybe they would explain to us why. We still have vacancies for bomb aimers, mid upper gunners, rear gunners , navigators. and wireless ops
Cliff

kookabat
4th Jul 2009, 01:09
This has prompted me to go and pull out a few papers and things... the following was written post-war by Phil Smith, the pilot of my great uncle's crew. Phil passed away in 2003 but I have kept in touch with his widow, who has provided a whole heap of letters and documents that I'm slowly going through:

My motives for joining the forces were mixed.
a) the call of adventure
b) A feeling of duty
c) The need to be 'in it' with the mob
d) A question of patriotism
e) At 22 years I was the right age, and had no responsibilities.

I chose the RAAF as I felt that qualification as a pilot might be of value in a post-war world.

As it happened Phil never flew as a pilot again after he returned to Australia but I think he covers a lot of the common reasons. It's also interesting to note that for many Australians they were called up and sent to Europe (most via Canada of course) and many questioned why they were being sent to fight in 'someone else's' war at around the time that the Japanese were seriously threatening Australia itself.

I do have fairly regular contact with a number of veterans but I don't think many are 'online'. I'll see what I can do; might be able to pull a wireless op or two out of the woodwork...

cliffnemo
4th Jul 2009, 09:43
I do have fairly regular contact with a number of veterans but I don't think many are 'online'. I'll see what I can do; might be able to pull a wireless op or two out of the woodwork...
Many thanks KOOKABAT. Would be marvelous to have more Australian input.

regle
7th Jul 2009, 16:25
I had now purchased a second hand motor bike. It was called a "Bitsa"...bits of this and bits of that but it went very well. It was a hybrid of various British bikes and there were no Japanese bikes on the market in 1949. I went down to Hurn, near Bournemouth to start my six weeks A.T.C. course. I would stay the week at Hurn and then travel back to Clapham on my bike for the weekend. The course was good fun and not very difficult as the Airways system was just starting up and traffic was not heavy.
I made some good friends amongst my fellow trainees and often spoke to them twenty or so years later from the cockpit of a D.C.10 or 747 when flying over their area. One of them was an out and out Cockney and became one of the best known characters at London Airport. It was still the era of the rather stilted B.B.C. accent where "Daddy" became "Deddy" and "Nobby" as I shall call him had a no nonsense good old London twang that you could cut with a knife. Once, whilst on Taxi Control, Nobby asked a BEA aircraft that had just cleared the runway and was waiting for a Terminal stand number ,"BEA, did I give you a stand ?" Back came a very Oxford accented reply " Not with a voice like thet, Old Boy"
At last, Kookabat, I was successful in obtaining my preliminary watchkeeping certificate and was very happy to be posted to Croydon , of all places. This meant much more time with Dora and the children and I could easily get to work on my motor bike. As still, officially a "trainee" I was not allowed to stand watch on my own and this turned out to become a little goldmine as word got around the Charter companies and soon the Tower telephone was ringing with requests for me to pop over to Le Touquet or Deauville during my watch hours. The odd bottle of wine, brandy and a nice steak kept my brother controllers happy and I was always assured of a speedy ATC clearance when I came back to land. Can you imagine it happening today ?
One of the Charter companies had the sad job of bringing back from France the body of an Englishman who had died there. The aircraft was actually in the circuit when another aircraft, a Dove flown by a great Croydon character called Tommy Gunn called up and asked for an emergency landing as he had trouble with one of the engines. This I gave him and had the Fire engine and the Ambulance standing by the tiny strip of runway leading to the grass. Unfortunately the hearse awaiting the body of the Englishman was standing next to them and I saw the Dove go up about six feet in the air before touching down "Blimey, but you cover everything !" was Tommy's remark as he touched down.
I enjoyed my A.T.C. duties but the pay was abysmal and we were, as usual. struggling very hard to bring up our three children. I had always kept my Pilot's licence valid at considerable expense as all medicals and training flights had to be paid for. One day, a pilot who had just landed came up to the Control room. His name was Tom Chambers and he was the Chief Pilot to Short Bros., the aircraft constructors who ran various flying schools at Rochester in Kent.
He told me that he had a contract with the Fleet Air Arm to ferry their various fighter aircraft around the country and was looking for pilots. He offered me a job there and then which I accepted, resigned from the A.T.C. and presented myself at Rochester. There I was interviewed by their Chief Flying Instructor, Frank Holt who was very impressed with my Instructional qualifications. I held an A2 category and a Master green card for Instrument Flying from my Empire Flying School days. He offered me the much better job as an Instructor to the Fleet Air Arm pilots who came to Rochester for a three week course to get the "green card" necessary to obtain an Instrument Flight Rating (IFR) clearance which was mandatory for anyone wishing to fly around the country on the new airways system. The aircraft that we flew were Oxfords fitted with the two stage amber system that I had used so extensively with the BEA check flight at Aldermaston.
One of the great advantages of the job was that it was a Monday to Friday one, leaving me free to freelance at Croydon and even at London Airport where a firm had started "joyrides" around London. They even paid thirty five shillings an hour to their freelance pilots and charged the passengers 10 shillings each for a fifteen minute trip. I had changed my "Bitsa" for a two stroke BSA Bantam which was very reliable and very economic. The Instrument training course at Rochester included comprehensive ground school and each Flying instructor had his own subject to lecture the naval pilots who came in all ranks from the lowest to extermely high ones. My subject was Instruments and Shorts sent me to Sperry's , the instrument makers, factory in London for a week in order to get a solid background to my lectures. This was a bonus as I was able to have a nice easy run to Clapham each evening instead of the hour and a half each way trip to Rochester each day.
Our lectures took place from 9a.m. until 10. Flying started soon after until 12.15. Lunch was served in the excellent Staff Mess and was subsidised by the company. We then flew again until 1600 hr. and that was a very pleasant day. As you only lectured once a week you didn't have to report until just before 10 each day unless you were lecturing.
Rochester was a tiny grass aerodrome set in a triangle on the top of the lovely named, Bluebell Hill. The surrounding countryside is beautiful and as commuting from London became more and more of a chore, we began looking for a house nearby. Motorbikes are fine when the weather is good but I was arriving at work and coming home soaked to the skin as often as not. We eventually bought a house in the tiny village of Walderslade at the bottom of Bluebell Hill. We were so happ to move to the first house that we could really call our own. It had a huge long garden at the back where we grew vegetables to help with still rationed England and Dora was able to indulge in her dearest wish to keep chickens. They were the best fed hens in Kent if not England and the smell of chicken food cooking, instantly takes me back to Erin House, Victoria Rd. Walderslade. We had no telephone but our next door neighbour, Mrs. Foreman, had and was nice about letting us use it as I was still able to continue with the freelancing at weekends that helped so much with our finances. I had progressed from the Bantam to a little Morris Minor and we had lovely times exploring the lovely countryside and the seaside resorts of the East Kent coast.
Another of the "perks" at Rochester was the flying a Rapide around the London skies at night for "Searchlight cooperation " with the Army. It brought back rather bad memories but was a welcome addition to the family finances as , also , was the pleasant week that we passed with the RAFVR either at Redhill or even at Rochester flying Chipmunks, Tiger Moths and even the ubiquitous Rapides for which we received something like £85 a year. I remember, one day, hanging in my straps, upside down over the Thames in a Tiggy and thinking what a silly position for an old married man with three children it was to be in......but it was a nice feeling all the same !

boguing
7th Jul 2009, 21:04
Regie - wonderful post as usual - but I'm going to have to take you task.

You used 'BSA Bantam' and 'reliable' in the same sentence. You then compound this preposterous statement by mentioning that you got wet riding it. But you did not mention that a light shower would find it's way into the magneto and remove Volts from it's memory bank.

regle
7th Jul 2009, 21:53
It never let me down. I got wet but the mags stayed dry. The only thing that it did was to shoot me over the handlebars when I was standing at the traffic lights in Doncaster and I kick started it and it went in to reverse stroke . I landed opposite the Danum and the bike shot into Macfisheries hurling wet fish in every direction. It was like a Marx Bros. Film.

kookabat
8th Jul 2009, 08:13
Another cracking post Reg.
flying a Rapide around the London skies at night for "Searchlight cooperation " with the Army. It brought back rather bad memories

I rather think it would bring back some nasty memories, but I suppose this time they weren't shooting at you...

<tongue in cheek>Could the Rapide corkscrew as well as a Lancaster?? :}<tongue out of cheek>

regle
8th Jul 2009, 09:47
As far as I remember, Kookabat, we weren't encouraged to evade with the Rapides but were told to stay in the beam in order to give the gunners "sighting" practice..."pour encourager les autres !". I only had to "corkscrew" on Halifaxes and they were a brute to fly ,straight and level, let alone corkscrew, but you would be surprised at the physical strength that you suddenly acqure when you are trapped in the beams of searchlights with flak all round you or, worse, none, signifying that a German fighter was just about lining you up. You got your head down and flung the plane around like a Tiger moth....Moth is a good analogy..Transfixed !

cockney steve
8th Jul 2009, 10:01
Ahh...the Beezer Batman... The Wipac Magneto could be made more reliable with the aid of plastiscene (No WD40 back then!)...I did eventually get one, as everyone in my age-group did.....our sailing club had one that passed round the club with an ever-increasing pile of spares,for about £15.......I remember the current owner sliding it ,speedway-style on a dirt-"croft"....it lay there some minutes, panting , popping and twitching,until he dragged it upright,leapt aboard and shot off in a trail of blue smoke....remember the Telegraph boys?

Rumour had it, that if you managed to go round the block twice, they passed you for a full license.

lovely ,evocative post,Reg, It's odd to think back to the huge Bakelite phone
( Clacton 4376 !) Then we got one with a DIAL! and the ability to bypass the operator!...and, yes, we had a regular trickle of locals wishing to use it.

Here we are, 50-odd years later, there's no plaited cotton-braided cables and the thing is smaller than a packet of 10 fags and virtually everyone carries one on their person.

cliffnemo
8th Jul 2009, 16:20
Have been rather busy lately with a few time cosuming items. Not least of all preparing to change from B.T to Sky plus broadband This necessitates purchasing an H.D ready T.V etc. The main reason I tell you this is that things could go wrong resulting in my being off line for a day or two. So fingers crossed.

Regle
especially as the odd trip to Le Touqet, Le Zoute etc. enabled you to bring back the odd steak or
Did you have any thing to do with the 'Flying Box Car' Lympe / Le Touqet. Circa 1950 I loaded my 500cc Manx Norton and bivvy (tent) I think at Lympe, and hopped across the Channel. My idea of a bachelor night out before my wedding.

Jobza Guddun
8th Jul 2009, 19:54
Good luck with all that Cliff! And hurry back mate.

regle
8th Jul 2009, 21:33
No Cliff, but I have landed there with Proctors and things around that time. I used the Car Ferry between Ostend and Southend but the noise from the engines of the bulbous nose, converted DC4 (I think ) was horrendous. Silver City ran Bristol Freighters which were a little bit better (but not much ). Reg

boguing
8th Jul 2009, 21:44
That predeliction for amusement didn't leave the single cylinder two stroke with the Boing Ting. My Yamaha 175 fired in 'backwards' when I was a proud 18 year old - who looked an utter twit outside his local when he reversed off scene. And fell off.

boguing
8th Jul 2009, 21:54
I must have been 7,8 and 9 years old when we, as a family, used the Carvair once and the Bristols twice. Seemed like first class to me at the time.

Dad (ex - Royces) took us on motoring holidays around Europe whilst he sold Elliot Autopilots to the various Embassies.

Thereafter he went back to Royces as chief eng on the RB211.

Icare9
8th Jul 2009, 22:12
When you say "used the bulbous nose DC4" (Carvair) I assume you don't mean as a pilot, but a passenger. You must have flown over my house which was under the approach path just before you cross the A127 from the south!! And now we have this cosy cyber chat!! What a small world it can become!!
From the ground I can tell you that the Bristol Freighters were much much noisier, they were so slooooow you could hear them from miles away. At least the Carvair was faster and didn't affect the TV picture so much. The faster the picture rolled, the closer the aircraft was, so you could time it to perfection to go into the street or garden and wave as the plane skimmed the roof! There were still Vikings about, Doves, Herons occasionally a Rapide, as well as DC4'a and-6's. The came the Viscount, Elizabethan and Friendship.

cliffnemo
9th Jul 2009, 10:02
CHANGING BROADBAND SUPPLIER
Jobza Guddun

Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 286

Good luck with all that Cliff! And hurry back mate.
Thanks JOB . but have to wait five days for my M.A.C number from B.T . There's progress for you.

--------------------------------------------------------------
REGLE Silver City strikes a chord. When I arrived at Lympe the crew had just winched up the loading ramp. When they saw me speeding towards them, the crew
immediately lowered the ramp, two of them jumped out , pushed me and the Norton up the ramp , and we were airborne in seconds. I had left Beverley at nine A.M , and had my bivvy up, and cooking dinner on the beach at Dunkirk by five P.M. Was hoping you would reply that you had been the Skipper.

Hoping to have no interruptions today, when I hope to knock something together on R.A.F Bottesford.

regle
9th Jul 2009, 12:24
I don't know whether you are making a "Freudian slip" in "Lymping" but I am pretty sure that it is Lympne, No I never rose to the dizzy heights of Silver City. They were on the Air Lift and the Ostend -Southend Carvair was a very useful and free (to Sabena personnel) trip to England and back. It was a very much used, albeit noisy and shaky "perk". and much regretted when it stopped. Reg

Fareastdriver
9th Jul 2009, 13:53
I had one trip in a RNZAF Bristol Frightener in Singapore in the late sixties.

Never again!

cliffnemo
9th Jul 2009, 15:57
After ‘crewing up at Langar we were transported to Bottesford Heavy Con,together with our kit which then included an extra kit bag containing flying clothing. This included battle dress blouse and trousers, a Smith and Wesson .38 revolver, Acme whistle, flying helmet with earphones,,
, oxygen mask and goggles, Irvin sheep skin jacket, flying boots,, one pair silk inner gloves, one pair black cloth twenty four volt electrically heated gloves one pair of leather gauntlet gloves
oxygen mask with microphone, I can’t remember whether my white Abb wool sea boot stockings were ‘issue’ or knitted by my mother.


Transport at that time comprised of either Q.L Bedford three ton 4x4 troop carriers or Ford W.O.T1 crew buses. However sometimes three ton wagons with a canvas ‘tilt’ over the body were used.


R.A.F Bottesford was a heavy conversion unit, Nr 1668 operating Lancaster Mk 1 & Mk 111 Lancasster aircraft. Situated approximately half way between Nottingham and Grantham. Sorry can’t remember much about the airfield , only the pubs.. The most memorable being Ye Ode Trip to Jerusalem,, cut into the rock just below Nottingham Castle and reputed to be the oldest pub in England. Also another large modern pub comes to mind, situated on one of the boulevards. It had a very large singing room complete with piano, The room was packed with servicemen , only pints of bitter were speedily served by waitresses carrying two trays, , one on top of the other , with each containing six pints of beer. Cash on delivery.. Seems strange now that one of our greatest pleasures was, a few
pints of ale singing at the top of our voices, around a piano, We must have been mad, particularly as some of the songs were ridiculous E.G they’re shifting grandads grave to build a sewer, they’re shifting it regardless of expense, they’re shifting his remains to make way for ten inch drains, just to please the posher residents. etc. I’m ashamed, and we even whistled at times. Good job things have improved since then.

I fully expected that on my first day, I would be up in the air and gaining practical experience and was amazed that according to my log book my next lesson was in the Link trainer, ‘under the hood, However a day later we had our introduction to the Lancaster with the pilot being listed as a F/S Munt, so presumably our pilot F/S Bowden was second dickie and we practised fighter affiliation for 1.20 hrs. This was followed two days later with P/O Browne on a cross country flight Base-Selsey Bill-Pt Barfleur--St Lo - Tours - Base. and cor blimey two days link trainer again. If nowt else I certainly now know how to fly a Link trainer in any weather. Introduction to the aircraft and air experience followed our own skipper as pilot. (2.40 hrs). Another trip straight and level 1.50 hrs , taxying and further effect of controls., another one hour link,, 45 mins medium level turns and stalling. fighter affiliation 45 mins, fighter affiliation another 45 mins,. 2 hours high level bombing practice.

On the 10 of April 1945T we had a navigation exercise Bottesford via a triangular route finishing over the Scilly Isles, a beautiful day with George the auto pilot doing most of the work. Every one bored stiff and dozing most of the time ,With the exception of the navigator Paddy of course , who was spot on course the whole trip.

A mug of strong tea is required but before that I will post a scan for TOW1709,
it may help (or confuse) him, on how to use Photobucket and post photos

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/PBUCKETINSTRUCT229.jpg
Paste in PPRuNe. to see if pic will appear click Preview Post.
Sorry TOW if it is unclear but it may help Cliff.

MTOW
10th Jul 2009, 02:17
Urban myth?

Re Bristol Frighterners... someone who was there might like to share with us the story of the RNZAF crew who "locked themselves out" of the flight deck on day around Singapore back in the 60s.

Short version: good looking female pax on board, and one by one while s-l-o-w-l-y progressing enroute, the crew found an excuse to 'go downstairs' until the co-pilot was left alone at the controls. After a very long time alone, and unable to raise anyone from down below, he too joined them, and, unthinking, did as you usually did, closed the hatch. Thanks to the ever present vibration, the seat (nav's? radio man's?) that slid over the hatch did so while he was away and rather liberal use of the crash axe was involved in getting back up onto the flight deck.

Icare9
11th Jul 2009, 12:15
Just to refer back to Cliffs post #904 regarding the bombing of Hull, it is a little known fact that it was so heavily bombed.
I've just been reading up on some sites and here is an extract from one:-
(courtesy of North-East Diary 1939-1945 by Roy Ripley & Brian Pears NE Diary 1939-45; Background Information - Sections 23 to 26 (http://www.ne-diary.bpears.org.uk/Bck/BSeq_07.html#B24)
HULL
Had 815 alerts and spent over 1,000 hours under alerts. 1,200 people were killed, 3,000 were injured and received treatment. 152,000 people were rendered temporarily homeless and provided for. 250 domestic shelters and 120 communal shelters were destroyed, from which more than 800 people were rescued alive. By the end of hostilities, approximately 6,000 of the 93,000 homes in Hull had escaped bomb damage (see later paragraph), from the three main attacks in March and May 1941 plus many smaller raids favoured by the Germans for the easy approach across the North Sea. Altogether Hull weathered 70 large and small night attacks from piloted aircraft compared with Southampton (49), Bristol (51), and London (251) plus 101 by day.

A study by a group of Hull citizens reported that 26 reception Centres dealt with 1,773 admissions after the first but smaller (78 plane) raid in March 1941. By the evening of the 16th March 1941, two days before the much larger (378 plane) blitz, 3,294 persons were seeking help of some sort, 2,216 of them for rehousing. The very heavy raid of March 18th 1941 when nearly 400 bombers in an aerial bombardment lasting from 21.15 to 04.00 the following morning, stepped up the pressure on the Reception Centres even more. The 7th / 8th May double raid shook the populace once again and raids across the North Sea continued into July 1941. when the rest of the country was practically at peace again. An observer in autumn of 1941 described Hull as 'the only town to have been heavily raided since the German attack on Russia'.

In September, 1939, Hull had 92,660 houses of varying sizes and values, but all capable of accommodating families. In the course of the war:- 1,472 were totally destroyed, 2,882 so badly damaged that demolition may be necessary, 3,789 needed repairs beyond the scope of first aid, 11,589 were seriously damaged, but patched up, 66,983 were slightly damaged, a total of 86,715.

These figures show that only 5,945 houses escaped damage in any form. Some of the 86,715 were struck more than once, in some instances twice and thrice, so that altogether 146,915 individual damages were sustained.

So, that's less than 6,000 homes undamaged out of 93,000. And then we have all the handwringing over Dresden? Puts things into perspective I think.

Goosequill
13th Jul 2009, 07:22
Hi Cliff,

Fascinated to read of your trip to HCU with the amount of kit you had to cope with. It prompted a question: somewhere along the way, bomber crews must have been issued with their personal flying kit, which they hung on to 'permanently'. I just wondered when that might have been - do you recall?

And did your kit also contain the famous white rollneck woolly jumper?!

Also intrigued by your carting around the revolver. I seem to have heard a number of different things about aircrew and pistols. One version has it that pistols were only drawn from the squadron armoury immediately prior to an operation (if the qualifying aircrew actually wanted to be bothered with one) and the other is that pistols were issued for longer periods; but if so, how long?

Most interested in you experiences on that one.

(I was told a tale by an infantry officer that he lost his cleaning rod, so he indented for the usual 'pistol, 380, rod, cleaning'. Must have been a trainee in the armoury that day as a new pistol arrived in the post...)

I too had a flight in a Bristol Freighter from Limp-Knee; when I was nine, and it switched me on to flying. (But I enjoyed the trip in an Anson much more a few years later...the tail shook so much I thought it would fall off.)

Cheers,

Dave

regle
13th Jul 2009, 22:04
I operated on 105 Squadron (Mosquito's) and 51 Sqdn. Halifaxes from 1942 until the end of January 1944 and I never saw an aircrew member of either Sqdn with a pistol.. I was never asked whether I wanted one and I cannot recall the subject ever coming up. I, personally was issued with my Bomber Command clothing in dribs and drabs. They were quite often short of many items. I never had and certainly would not have worn the famous white roll top jumper but it was very popular, particularly with the air gunners. I can recall being issued with a Sidcot suit when I was at ITW and being photographed in it . It was handed in before we were allowed to go on leave before we were sent to the U.S . as the first of the Arnold scheme British Cadets. When I got back and was operating on Mossies I was issued with an Irving Jacket but rarely wore it as we never operated above fifty feet and it used to get very warm in that tiny cockpit. I didn't even wear flying boots on Mossies and that saved my life when we crashed on the return from a low level Op. on Leeuwarden German aerodrome. My foot went throught the wooden fuselage and I couldn't free it and my Observer stepped out through the non existent nose which had been shot away together with the Instrument Panel and took my very ordinary boot off where it was sticking out of the fuselage. Later on we were issued with better flying boots which were made so that the top could be cut away leaving a less noticeable pair of shoes for you to try and evade being taken P.O.W.
I am pretty sure that not one man in a thousand ever wore or asked for a gun as there would have been many, many unsavoury incidents amongst celebrating crews and jealous boy friends etc. not to mention friendly fire amongst our Allies on drunken nights out and I cannot recall any such incidents.
I should be very interested to know if there is anyone who can tell me if it was not as I found it.

Goosequill
13th Jul 2009, 22:34
Hi Regle,

Thanks very much for your personal experiences on that one. I think you might be right about the possibility of problems if they were always to hand. There is a famous case of a jealous soldier seeing his girlfriend with another man in a pub, so he returned to his unit and came back to the pub with - a BREN gun. He did kill them (short bursts at well-defined targets, of course) and in due course swung for it.

An infantry officer who served in Cairo told me that when they went onto town for a booze-up they always took their pistols. And come the time to return to camp they either to leave the bar to get back to camp in time; or they could stay in the bar if there happened to be a 'disturbance' in town. Naturally, just before they were due to go back to camp one of them would go into a side alley and fire a few shots in the air. Good for another hour at least...

Yes, I guess it must have been warm at 50 feet AGL in a Mossie - especially over enemy airfields! Looking at the seating arrangements it looks as though you might have had your right elbow in the nav's lap a lot of the time. I did read once that for some Mossie pilots it was difficult to get their legs in the right position for the rudder pedals, and that as a result one 'cheek' took most of their weight for the trip. Did you ever have such a 'numbing' experience?

I believe you could also tell the approximate length of service by the airman's Irvin jacket. At the outbreak of war, the jacket panels were made up of nice big, regular pieces of sheepskin, but by the end they were allegedly coming off the line as a formation of off-cuts.

Cheers,

Dave

cliffnemo
14th Jul 2009, 10:31
Thanks Icare for the extracts I hadn’t seen them before. It certainly was heavily bombed. The Ack Ack guns fired repeatedly all night, with shrapnel falling like rain.. In the May blitz the guns had to be re barreled frequently.

A pic of ‘HOME’ after it had been ‘tidied up’
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/HULLBLITZ237.jpg


Just thinking Regle, you must have flown up and down the Humber from Snaith a few times, did it look an easy target. I saw the Humber one moonlit night (bombers moon ?) the confluence of the Humber and the River Hull shone like a mirror in the shape of an inverted T providing a perfect aiming point..
Coupled with the fact that the mouth of the Humber estuary is shaped like a funnel I would think German pilots wouldn’t need Pathfinders.. Would think it was a perfect place to jettinson bombs on aborted mission on Leeds, Manchester, and Liverpool.

Will answer Goosequil tomorrow. And. Regle, I certainly had a Smith and Wesson 38 will try to find my issue book and report back next post.

cliffnemo
14th Jul 2009, 11:15
Sorry Reg , but despite all the mistakes I have made the page below shows I was issued Jan/45 with a pistol/revolver (six entries down) and I didn,t shoot any one with it, honest your honour. With regard to the white sweater, I do not remember being issued with a white sweater, aircrew. Perhaps they were issue for rear gunners, when they removed the perspex from the rear turret for better vision?
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/SMITHWESSON238.jpg

regle
14th Jul 2009, 18:09
Yes, Cliff we saw a lot of the Humber and what you say is absolutely true. You didn't need a beam as Hull was perfectly placed to be targeted especially if there was anything of a moon. Just like Liverpool (You really pick your places to live, Cliff ) although the conglomeration of towns surrounding gave it a bit more chance of being missed than Hull.
Apropos the white sweater don't you remember that the taking out of the perspex panel was strictly forbidden....? I think that it was the slab of armour plating that was the main obstruction. My mid upper gunner's life was saved because I made him put the panel back after he had removed it one night and a cannon shell struck it from a ME110 that was attacking us . He was not so lucky afterwards as he was the only member of my crew not to survive the war , foolishly volunteering to stay on Ops when the crew had been screened and being shot down over Berlin one month later.
I remember seeing that you had received a gun when I read your post and was going to ask you about it because it seemed strange to me even then. Did you ever fire it ? All the best, Reg.

Union Jack
14th Jul 2009, 21:09
I never had and certainly would not have worn the famous white roll top jumper but it was very popular, particularly with the air gunners

Reg - I suspect that the famous "white roll top jumper" was almost certainly derived from the equally famous "submarine jersey" (aka "submarine sweater"), dating from WWI or even earlier, recalling a well known Punch cartoon displaying one. I appreciate that it might not have been your garment of choice but they used to be very popular too with the ladies, who would wear them as a (very) short dress, sometimes resorting to stretching them if they were initially too short for their liking!

With very best wishes and hope you are keeping well

Jack

PS I'm pretty sure that the RAF Marine Branch will have worn them too

regle
14th Jul 2009, 21:28
By the way , I was looking through my Log Books and I saw that I took a Rapide to Yeadon via Coventry on August 18th. 1951 and the passenger was a Mr. Lumb. So that was the name of the courteous gentleman with the lovely old Daimler and the Chauffeur. I wonder whether anyone has ever heard of him ?
Still teaching the Fleet Air Arm how to fly on Instruments at Rochester; One day in February 1952 I was driving in to work when I saw my Flight Commander, Peter Harrison, flagging me down on the other side of the road. " Go back home, pack a few things,; you've got to go to Corsica " he said . Short Bros. at that time were making a small amphibian called the Sealand and one of them, on a delivery flight had gone U/S with engine trouble and had landed in Ajaccio, Corsica. It was piloted by Don Tanton, their Chief Company Pilot. I had met him briefly but our paths were to cross many times in the years to come.
Apart from the odd trip across the channel to Le Touqet, Deauville, Knokke-Le Zoute etc. I had never made a long distance flight from England in Civil Aviation. This was truly a big break from the mundane task of teaching good instrument flying to, mainly Lt/Cdrs but the odd Admiral popped up now and then ,so picking up a Wireless Operator, a Mechanic for the Sealand and loads of spare parts for the engine we cleared Customs at Croydon and set off on our first leg to Lyons. We did not have the equipment for night flying so I decided to spend the night there. Our aircraft was one of the training flight Oxfords and it performed faultlessly throughout the entire trip.
At Lyons one of the Air Traffic controllers, who spoke English , gave us a lift in to the city and took us to a small but cosy Restaurant that also had rooms to let. We were made very welcome as ex-RAF flyers were extrenely popular in France. After cleaning up we came down for our evening meal which was better than anything we had tasted for years.
Lyons prided itself as being the Gastronomic centre of France and I would heartily endorse that claim. The Patron, a small swarthy man with jet black hair, came over and joined us and with my halting schoolboy French and his few words of English we had a good conversation going helped by the numerous large Cognacs that kept appearing and which the Patron insisted were on the House. When he heard that we were going to Ajaccio next morning he actually burst in to tears. "Me, Ajaccio" he repeated , thumping his chest and pointing to himself. It turned out that he had left Ajaccio as a small boy about twenty years before and had never been back although he had large members of his family still there. The Cognacs must have done their work on me very well because I found myself saying "Viens avec nous , demain "...Come with us tomorrow.! There was absolutely no reason why not. There was plenty of room aboard. The only thing was that we didn't know how long the engine repairs were going to take so we couldn't give him a return date. His Wife, dressed in the typical black bombazine and perched upon her seat where she could see everything that was going on had been watching us with ever growing disapproval. Monsieur Orsi, for that was his name, sensed this and made us understand that we should sleep and see what we thought tomorrow. He had obviously a good knowledge of what a few large Cognacs could do to a person !
We came down, with sore heads, to a gigantic breakfast. Mr.Orsi had been to the market around five o'clock in the morning to buy fresh eggs and bacon as he knew this was the favoured Brirish breakfast but four eggs each with mushrooms,tomatoes to top the beautiful slices of best ham was one of the best breakfasts that I can remember. After we washed the breakfast down with , not the best coffee that I have tasted, I told him that he could come, subject to him signing a disclaimer relieving Shorts of all responsibility. As he signed this his Wife burst into tears and embraced him as though she would never see him again which was probably what was going through her mind.

regle
14th Jul 2009, 22:33
Mr. Orsi asked us to give him an hour whilst he made "certain preparations ". We ,jokingly , said amongst ourselves, that his tearful Wife had insisted upon him making his will, then off we went to the aerodrome but this time in his car with his red eyed wife and followed by three more black Citroens, traction avant, filled with relatives, following behind. We had warned him that there was not much comfort in the Oxford but he had brought a large wicker basket on which he perched himself behind me with the mechanic sitting in the right hand seat. Our Radio Officer had a canvas chair with the radio on a small bench in front.
The Oxford hadn't the performance or the equipment to overfly the Alps so I flew all the way down the Rhone Valley and then along the coast to Nice before setting course to Ajaccio. We had lost all radio contact wirh anyone so I flew low in front of the Control Tower to show them our registration , waggled the wings and set course towards Corsica.
As we flew, very low, over the Mediterranean there was a loud bang and I nearly jumped out of my skin. Mr.Orsi had opened his wicker basket and had popped one of the bottles of Champagne that he had brought, together with the roast chicken, pate de foie gras, truffles, crisp baguettes with farm butter.. you name it. It was there. We sat there with the sun shining, the sea sparkling, having a feast fit for Royalty.
When the coast of Corsica came into sight, Mr. Orsi's eyes filled with tears and I fully expected him to kiss the ground when we landed there on a lovely afternoon with the scent of mimosa everywhere.
Mr.Orsi was very quickly on the telephone and in no time at all there were cars all around filled with the fiercest looking Brigands you would wish to meet. They proceeded to hug and kiss him and then, after explanations it was our turn to be embraced. He explained that there were no longer any Brigands on the Island but they had been replaced by Hoteliers and we were staying at his Brother in Law's Hotel and would be treated like that other well known Corsican, Napoleon. And we were.
The repairs went very speedily, too speedily for our passenger and we were ready to leave the very next day. That night we were regally wined and dined and introduced to the deadly drink, absinthe, which had long been banned in France but was the local tipple in Corsica
At breakfast, next morning, the whole fish with glassy eye staring at me proved too much and I beat a hasty retreat to my room (and bathroom) where I stayed untl it was time to leave. Once again a large entourage of black Citroens accompanied us to the aerodrome where the relatives literally filled the plane with huge sacks of tangerines, thousands of bunches of mimosa and cases of liqueures of various sorts. Mr, Orsi now beaming from ear to ear , was carried on board by about fifty of his relatives and off we went.
There was no question of doing anything but staying the night at Lyons. The Restaurant was declared closed to the public but was full with relatives, friends and also his now smiling ,much relieved and a little surprised Madame Orsi smothered me with kisses and led us to the places of honour next to her husband at a table surrounded by at least ten more tables where the rest of his guests where seated. The ambience was fantastic ! Mr. Orsi was beaming all the time and kept patting me on the shoulder "Mon Commandant" he would say proudly.
Moules Mariniere as an h'ors d'oeuvres followed by Steak
Lyonnaise , of course and then course after course followed accompanied by some of the finest wine I have ever tasted and then the awful coffee but the lovely Cognacs with the cheeses.
The flight back to England was rather an anti climax but the mimosa and the tangerines were gratefully received by the Customs at Croydon and the staff at Rochester. Years afterwards and now speaking better French I tried to find the Restaurant whilst on holiday with the family in the south of France but Mr. Orsi had gone and nobody knew where but I shall never forget that trip as long as I live.

kookabat
15th Jul 2009, 00:40
That is a fantastic story Reg!! Things were a little different now - these days you can't get a jumpseat unless you are company personnel, even if you know the pilot. Just not the same, is it?

On this subject:
ex-RAF flyers were extremely popular in France.
I'm happy to report nothing has changed there. On my recent trip I was able to see how much the locals are thankful for the part played by the Allied air forces in WWII - the graves of my great uncle and his crew are beautifully tended and the lads certainly won't be forgotten in the little part of the world where they died. It was very heartwarming and not a little humbling to see.

Icare9
15th Jul 2009, 08:12
I believe that the RAF uniform shirt collars were actually responsible for some deaths when crews ditched and the material shrank, effectively choking them. It also chafed, which is where the silk scarf of the fighter boys and roll neck sweaters for gunners was adopted, allowing for continual movement to pick up any approaching aircraft before being seen themselves.

Goosequill
15th Jul 2009, 17:53
Hi Icare9,

I think you may have touched on a question that only cliffnemo and regle may be able to answer fully - I did hear some years ago that while the separate collar was worn by all ranks on the ground, shirts with permanent collars were made available for aircrew as they were deemed to be safer.

Over to you, gentlemen!

Cheers,

Dave

regle
15th Jul 2009, 21:26
I definitely only wore the separate collar version of the blue shirt when I was operating as an NCO and I don't remember there being any alternative available. ( I always carried a spare collar as well...You never knew when it might come in handy ! ). As an Officer it was definitely the Van Heusen with separate collar for Dances, etc. and the fixed version for Ops. Don't ask me why ! Incidentally, silk scarves and other items in similar material were not confined to Fighter Boys. There were plenty to be found amongst the Bomber Crews as well. Reg.

Icare9
15th Jul 2009, 22:07
Hi, I must have missed the latest page, I thought my post was following on immediately from yours about roll neck sweaters.

Where do you get that knack of telling such great stories from? How can the repair of an U/S aircraft be so redolent with interest? I couldn't help laughing out loud at several points, wonderful stuff, just like being there!!

Goosequill
15th Jul 2009, 23:37
Hi Regle,

So, the mighty collar studs reigned supreme! Glad to hear it - none of these wimpy sewn-ons...

I do remember the separate collars from my time in the ATC in the '60s. My front collar stud, the long one, rubbed my Adam's apple raw until I got used to it. When I joined, the ATC was cutting over from the old 1920s dog collar tunics, and we had one lanky out-of-measure lad who had to wear one for a good few months until a BD was found for him. He looked like Aircraftman Lawrence...

Cliff has not yet reported back on whether he fired his S&W .380 revolver, so I will report on my own experiences with it. Years ago, I fired one on a number of occassions using both old service ammo (nice whiff of cordite)and modern stuff. Both were unimpressive. The recoil was slight, and the bullets actually bounced back from the target - a retired tenpin bowling pin - and landed at my feet. I think that shooting at a Storm Trooper might have had the effect of annoying him, but little else...

Cheers,

Dave

Fareastdriver
16th Jul 2009, 09:33
Fast forward to Borneo in 1966. We were issued the mighty Smith & Wesson 380 revolver with twelve rounds of 1940s ammunition. You could see the bullet if you fired it into wind, in the middle of a hanger you couldn’t hit anything because it wouldn’t reach and on the range I had one bullet stick in the barrel and another one expire trying to push it out.
When I went up country into the then jungle I was told how to use 9mm. ammunition. Using blade tape, a type of thick insulation tape, torn into thin strips one could wind this around the indent of the 9mm. cartridge so it would act like a rim to hold it in the chamber when the hammer hit it. The only drawback was that the extractor wouldn’t work so you had to poke the empties out with a screwdriver.
I scrounged a handful of rounds off the Ghurkas we were staying with and tried it out. Fantastic! The bore being more or less the same, the double charge, (a 9mm. has to reload an automatic as well), it fired with a good solid crack and I could put six rounds into an oil drum at twenty yards.
They didn’t have any more ammo to spare but they arranged for the unit in the next valley to give me some the next day. I arrived and a Ghurka came out carrying a big box. Crump! He had swung 5,000 rounds into the back of my helicopter. I taped up 100 rounds and gave the rest back. I didn’t think the barrel could cope with much more.

brakedwell
16th Jul 2009, 10:23
Aden 1964 - same problem Fareastdriver. S&W plus 5 rounds of 1940's ammo to guard our block of flats in the Maalla straight. When fired on the range the bullets just managed to make the end of the barrel. Answer - bought my own Colt Automatic in Nairobi!

Goosequill
16th Jul 2009, 10:33
9mm in a .380? A daring move, sir! Mind you, the S&W was probably okay with it. The .380 I fired was actually a Webley, and the mild steel chamber would probably not have taken as much punishment as the slightly more robust S&W.

Believe it or not, the .380 once had a reputation as a man-stopper. When it first came out it used a 200 grain blunt-nosed lead bullet. Then someone murmured something about Britain having recently signed the Geneva Convention, and so the lighter jacketed bullet had to be adopted.

No surprise about the bullet getting stuck in the barrel. Lots of amusing stories on that one...

Cheers,

Dave

cliffnemo
16th Jul 2009, 10:59
Hi Dave ( Goosequill). Sorry some things I am positive about , other things I am not sure about. I remember I did have surplus , one flying helmet and goggles, and one Sidcot suit,which was rubberised and waterproof, (ideal for motor cycling) one battledress and trousers, one barathea uniform. The mystery is no items are struck off in my flying clothing card . When I was demobbed I was told I was still in the R.A.F.V.R until further notice, and quite sure I never received the ‘further notice’ Maybe I retained some kit legally ? I should point out most Sidcot suits were not waterproof.
A W.W2 flying helmet was withdrawn recently on Ebay, with a reserve of £500. Sadly my helmet , like me has almost disintegrated.


With regard to the revolver, I still possessed it ,and ammunition when in Germany after V.J Day, and initially I kept it loaded in my inside pocket as I expected to be very unpopular in Germany. However I soon found out the most of the Germans were very friendly. We could walk around Hanover , and Brunswick in uniform quite safely , and surprisingly we were treated with respect.

As for cleaning rods Dave. Not as bad a joke as the erk who indented for Hangers , Coat ,
and received Hangars Aircraft. (Sorry , a corny stores joke)


Reg, I never fired the revolver in anger , but do remember skiving one organized sports afternoon, opting for firing practice on the ’butts’ ( very strenuous) and later doing a bit of game shooting near Diedelsdorf., Hares and rabbits fetched a good price in town.

With regard to the collar controversy ,I wore a detached collar and shirt all the time, with the exception of when I was flying, I then wore a polo jersey without collar and tie. (See scan of letter below.), We were issued with ‘Caps , comforter’ These were in the form of a knitted tube, which could be worn as a scarf, or one half tucked inside the other , then rolled up to form a hat. Think they may have been intended for use under a ‘tin lid’ (steel helmet) Sorry about the description, can any one do better ? Regle F/SGT Keller/ Couler collected our spare collars weekly, and took them to a Torquay Chinese laundry for washing/ironing/ starching. Always thought he would have his laundry expertly laundered free gratis.





http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/clothngmicrofilm240.jpg
Any one know the correct term for the item above. Microgram? Micro film.?

regle
16th Jul 2009, 13:05
Cliff, I am not sure but I think that the letters were "micrograph". If they weren't then they should have been. I have never written or even seen one but know that they existed.
A little reminder that at 1930 this evening on ITV the "Countrywise" programme is screening the Dover programme in which they ,briefly, interviewed me a few weeks ago. As I haven't seen the result I shall reserve comment. Reg.

thegypsy
16th Jul 2009, 18:44
regle
Just seen you on TV talking to Paul Heiney.I guess a lot more was filmed but a lot edited out as usual in these programmes. Short but sweet.Hope I look like that at your age assuming I even make it!!

Must come along and see the Bleriot spot.

regle
16th Jul 2009, 21:18
Thanks for the compliment. I wish that I felt as good though.... They have kept back a lot for a DVD that the Dover Council are producing for the Bleriot weekend..the 24th.and 25th. of July, ..At least that was their excuse ! It was quite enjoyable and the ITV people were very friendly and, as you might expect, very professional. All the best ,Reg.

Goosequill
17th Jul 2009, 06:08
Hi Reg,

I can only echo the previous comment. Congrats are due for making it to such an age - but to look so distinguished sets the bar a bit high for the rest of us...

Cheers,

Dave

Goosequill
17th Jul 2009, 06:28
Hi Cliff,

Thanks for the lowdown on the acquisition of the kit - a fascinating tale in itself. So you kept your mum knitting for victory? I'm sure she was delighted to do it.

The stores bods seem to have many legends surrounding them. I was told of one huge item that was lost (forget what) and would have resulted in a court martial for someone, but was solved by the stores magician putting in a loss report for a minor accessory associated with the item. Then, after that had been accepted, he put in an innocent-looking amendment slip with the code for the item itself. It worked.

£500 is a weeny bit high for a WWII helmet - unless in perfect condition and with all the electrics. After years of looking I did eventually find one the right size for my own noddle for open cockpit flying, and Headsets at Shoreham dragged out their crate of WWII acessories to provide me with a brand-new loom, converters for NATO jack and two-lead, and a pre-amp - but that DID cost - but at least it also came with a cert as fit for use.

Is you own helmet retrievable with a spot of leather conditioner? It is wonderful stuff...

Cheers,

Dave

cliffnemo
17th Jul 2009, 16:04
For Dave Goosequils AMUSEMENT ONLY.
Have scanned my helmet.

Leather conditioner ? The lighter patches are the chamois leather lining showing through. As I have already said, it is as decrepit as it's owner.
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/HELMET241.jpg

brakedwell
17th Jul 2009, 16:36
That looks spooky cliffmo :):):)

Sailor Vee
17th Jul 2009, 17:47
There may well be some people who watched 'Allo Allo' who remember the somewhat dubious use of 'ze leather flying helmet unt de wet zelery'!

regle
17th Jul 2009, 21:39
Cliff , that is the most disgusting spooky thing I have seen on the Internet. It is a pity that Hammer Films are defunct as they would have paid a lot of money for such a gruesome object. I could almost see the original contents of the helmet seeping through the obvious knife slashes in the outer skin. Please give it decent burial although I doubt whether any Priest would ever sanctify it !
Sailor Vee ! Where have you been ? I used to watch 'Allo, 'Allo but don't recall that episode ! The mind boggles ! Can you elaborate.? By the way when I was flying with Sabena I had a very good First Officer who was the son of a very highly born Belgian Aristocrat. He told me that his Father would not allow anyone to watch such programmes as he had seen too many friends and dear relations betrayed and tortured before being executed to find anything to laugh at. I found myself trying to explain that we had a very different sense of humour and his reply still makes me feel ashamed. " Commandant" he said " You were never occupied by the Nazis". I am not trying to preach, just giving a different point of view. Reg

Goosequill
18th Jul 2009, 10:53
Well, Cliff,

Thanks for the pic, and I will now take your word for it being beyond practical use. However, I cannot see you burying it - it saw you through a lot.

So, suggestion: place it on a mannequin head, carefully apply liquid leather conditioner, and after it has softened the leather again, carefully sew up the tears.

Good for another sixty-five years of viewing at least...

Cheers!

Dave

brakedwell
18th Jul 2009, 11:02
Cliff, if you buried your flying helmet it would come back to haunt you. :eek: :eek:

PS. You can have these spooky 1955 issue goggle glasses if you need to update your flying gear. :)

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c32/sedgwickjames/goggles.jpg

Goosequill
19th Jul 2009, 06:28
Hi Brakedwell,

Those look like MkVIII lenses!

If you have a pair of goggles that need that type of glass replacing, then would you believe that the lenses from the Stadium 'MkVIII' goggles are exactly the same pattern and can be fitted to RAF ones? The goggles can be found on the net on a classic car site - forget which, but Google should find it.

Cheers,

Dave

Sailor Vee
19th Jul 2009, 06:52
'Allo, 'Allo but don't recall that episode !In the whole series the german colonel was always 'at' Michelle; ('waitress' at Café René); to go upstairs and get ready with ze flyin' 'elmet und ze vet zelery!

As to where I've been..........just viewing the progress, haven't felt the need for any input until the helmet appeared. Reminded me of EFT days in the Chipmunk when we wore Mk 1 'bone-domes' with grey inner linings and silver outer shell!

regle
19th Jul 2009, 10:42
Thanks for the reminder but can't say that I remember the remark. I am pleased that you are reminded of the Chipmunk days. I was in the era of the cloth American Helmets with the flying goggles only allowed to be worn above the eyes when you had soloed. I think that the early American films such as "Hell's Angels", "The Dawn Patrol" etc. were the forerunners of that mode.
Keep up the "inputs" . They are the lifeblood of a successful Forum and are, often, the stimulii of very interesting topics for others to join in. All the best, Regle.

Sailor Vee
19th Jul 2009, 10:47
I found this.....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v616/SailorVee/chippy.jpg

in the hangar at Sligo. Tracked it down in my logbook and had flown it at Church Fenton.

regle
20th Jul 2009, 09:26
April 2nd, 3rd., and the 4th. 1952, I flew Chipmunks WB753, 755 & 757 whilst I was doing some RAFVR flying during my last month of Instructing at Rochester for Short Bros. That was the only time that I ever flew them but I always remember them as beautiful little aeroplanes but then, De Havilland never made anything but beautiful looking aeroplanes
Changing the subject "Sailor Vee" .Is it my Navigation or do you really live in the Sahara ? That's where my , admittedly dicey, Atlas places you ! REg.

Mike Read
20th Jul 2009, 14:19
Google Earth puts him somewhere in Oman

regle
20th Jul 2009, 17:10
That's about the distance of the bombing error before we got the PFF !
My dicey Atlas wasn't so far out ! Thanks , Reg.

Sailor Vee
20th Jul 2009, 17:21
somewhere in OmanNot that much of a secret! Directly south of Muscat Airport by about 400 yards, (was known as Seeb until a few months ago).

regle
21st Jul 2009, 22:51
At Rochester , it was very convenient to be a member of the RAF Volunteer Reserve as it meant that you could put in the requisite flying hours on the Tiger Moths, Chipmunks etc. that were available and thus receive the £85 p.a. that went with it. Not a fortune , I know, but worth a lot more then...early 1950's. I was also still dodging searchlights at 85 m.p.h. in the Rapides that also earned a few coppers but had it's disadvantages in coming back late to a fog bound airfield. Once, after returning from one of these exercises, I could only see the lampost at the corner of the airfield sticking out of the thick fog that enveloped it. I used this to land but could not see to taxi so had to leave the Rapide and managed to grope my way to the tower. I was there early next morning to taxi it in and also to gather buckets of the wonderful tasty mushrooms that were so prolific. The trouble was that our Chief, Tom Chambers, had an arrangement with a local Farmer who used to pay him for the season's crop and you had to be there extremely early to gather a lovely supper of huge mushrooms before he got there .

The airfield, at Rochester , drops away to the west and there is a deep valley along which the M2 now runs, just before the bridge which spans the Medway. Once when coming in to land, just before lunch on the 3rd. May 1951, in an Oxford with my two Naval Lieutenants having finished their Instrument lesson, I was approaching to land from the West Malling direction, had my wheels and flaps down and was coming to the valley when both engines cut out. I just had enough time to stick the nose down , dive into the valley and gain enough speed to pull up over the ridge and flop the Oxbox down on to the grass. My wheels had already been lowered for the landing ! Two very quiet and shaken Naval Pilots had lunch with me that day. Blocked fuel lines were found to have cut off the cross feed to both engines but I felt for the Captain who put his plane down on the Hudson when I read about it more recently. You don't have time to think and that is where experience saves you.

Whilst I was still at Rochester my Mother and Father decide to make a coach tour on the Continent. Not liking sea travel they asked me if it would be possible to fly them to Dunkirk where they would meet the coach. Shorts had a single engined Proctor which they hired out to the staff at cost so together with my Wife, Dora, we set off. I had written to the authorities at the small aerodrome of Mardyck, near Dunkirk, telling them when I would be arriving. I had not received any reply but, nevertheless, we flew off to Lympne to clear Customs and Passport Control. When we got there I found that I had left the briefcase with the "ship's papers" and our passports at Rochester so I had to go back there and collect them before presenting myself to my not very impressed Mother and my more tolerant Father and my not very surprised at all, Wife.
Thank goodness, we had a lovely flight across the Channel. I flew low and it was the first time that I had flown with Dora as a passsenger and it was lovely to have her sitting next to me as we flew to France. When we got to Dunkirk we could not raise anyone on the Radio and Mardyck looked deserted.. It was a grass aerodrome so I put down as near to the Control Tower as possible. There was not a soul in sight anywhere. Eventually a lone figure on a bicycle appeared on the horizon. When he got to us he made us understand that we were to wait there for the Gendarmerie. Thre was a howling wind and we sat for what seemed like hours and, eventually a sinister looking black gangsterlike Citroen arrived and discharged four big Gendarmes. Nobody, but nobody spoke a word of English but papers were demanded,Passports were examined...nay, scrutinised and immediately confiscated but , the Radio Licence bore the Royal Seal and obviously impressed them immensely. All this was performed ouside the plane with the papers held down in the cold wind on the wing of the plane with my Mother trying to dictate matters by speaking English about x number of Decibels louder than anyone else. The man with the bicycle had disappeared but turned up again about twenty minutes later closely followed by yet another sinister black Citroen which turned out to be a taxi.. We all crowded into this and the whole cortege swept into Dunkirk to what turned out to be the Police Station . There we, at last, managed to get the Chief of Police to understand that we were merely seeing my parents off on a tour and the ship was due in about two hours... Eventually it was decided that we could stay as long as we kept the taxi driver with us so we went to the docks where we were told that the ship was two hours late. My Father, who was always the worrying sort, wanted to sit there on the dock until the ship appeared but my Mother, as usual, got her own way and suggested that we had something to eat. All of us, taxi driver included, had a very good lunch together and ., eventually met the ship and put my relieved parents on the coach.. On the way back to the airfield we passed the taxidriver's home. His wife ran out shouting that she had a message for us to fly to Lille and clear Customs there before returning to Lympne, in England. I was now in a quandary, Because of my return to Rochester I had not enough fuel to fly to Lille, then on to Lympne and then to Rochester. I had not enough money to buy fuel and credit cards were unheard of in those early days of the '50's. Taking my courage in both hands, I took off from the deserted airfield , thanking the good old Proctor which fired first time on the battery, and flew straight back to Lympne where I went up to the Tower and explained , to the best of my ability, what had happened. The Controller was most helpful. " We can contact the Customs at Calais direct on VHF and explain" he said. He did so and I asked him to apologise to French Customs. I shall never forget the answer that came back " Monsieur, you cannot apologise to French Customs.
Weeks later , I received a letter from the M.C. A. ( Ministry of Civil Aviation ), asking me , most civilly as befited their name, to explain "without prejudice" why I had been to France, landed at an unmanned aerodrome, left two unknown persons there without clearing Immigration and Customs and had then left without clearance, without clearing Customs or Emigration. I duly replied and never heard another word from them. Months later, I had a letter from Mardyck saying that they were sorry that they had missed me but he, their only Air Traffic Controller, had been on "conge" (holiday) but had heard that I had been over and hoped that we had "enjoyed our visit. " I always wondered who the lone figure on the bicycle was and was told by people who know about these things that he would have been the "garde de champetre". Literally Guardian of the fields (locality). This position is still in existence and is, literally a paid official whose business it is to know everything about the locality in which he lives and to aid the Police, local Officials and Doctors etc. in everything that he sees and hears.. A sort of Official "Nosey Parker". I had a later experience that showed me how efficiently they work but that is another story.

Goosequill
22nd Jul 2009, 14:04
Hi regle,

In due course we may discover an aviation experience you have not yet had...

Yonks ago, I read about a Brit pilot heading for France (1920/30s I recall) and arriving roughly overhead the aerodrome at night. He knew he was in the right place but there were simply no lights showing. He circled for twenty minutes and eventually the lights came on. The controller (total airfield staff - one) explained that he could hear the aircraft overhead, but he was finishing his evening meal, and monsieur could not possibly object to that, could he...?

A nice little booklet, the Imperial Airways Pilot's Handbook for 1924 has a few gems about the carriage of various items of freight. If gold bullion was being carried, the pilot was provided with a pistol. A lot of loyalty expected in those days...

At a guess, you might have flown the Chippie before it had the anti-spin strakes. If you did, did you happen to notice any big difference?

Cheers,

Dave

regle
22nd Jul 2009, 15:59
I never had to use my parachute other than sit on it, Thank Goodness and I never made a landing that I could'nt walk (or run ) away from although, like the Battle of Waterloo, a close run thing a few times.
I only flew the Chipmunk over a period of three days and never, never tried a spin ! Why stick your neck out ? Reg P.S. Things are bound to happen when you've spent nearly three years airborne . ( I would'nt change a minute of it.)

cliffnemo
22nd Jul 2009, 16:44
I have been fully occupied changing my broadband supplier, phone and T.V from B.T to Sky and my time has been taken up writing threatening emails and phone calls . Still no sign of going off and on line.. Trouble obtaining M.A.C No, and transferring .Had the item below saved in M.S Word for a few days,. and intended to add final days at ‘heavy con’ buy decided to post now.

Paula R.A.F in Oklahoma in Facebook
Or gen from Oklahoma 19/07/09

Paula K. Denson
Paula K. Denson
It would be fun if you could go. It is open to others so perhaps another year? Lots of places I still want to go. I am going to a RAF in Oklahoma book signing tomorrow at the Tulsa Air and Space Museum. It should be fun. I enjoy seeing the planes and it helps me sell books. Out of 1000, I am now down to about 100. Guess I will have to write another. Ha.
Yesterday at 1:59am
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Royal Air Force Day in Oklahoma - Saturday, July 18 (Tulsa Air and Space Museum)

Royal Air Force Day in Oklahoma is dedicated to the young British troops who trained in the skies over Oklahoma during World War II. There is an unconfirmed quote attributed to Winston Churchill that says, "The Battle of Britain was won in the skies of Oklahoma." True or not, it speaks to the thousands of young men who trained in Oklahoma. Flying from bases in Miami and Ponca City they learned to fly first, the PT-19 primary trainers or PT-17, and then they moved up to the BT-13 and the AT-6 advanced trainers. Once the cadets earned their wings, they returned to England to help win the war. Some of the young men lost their lives in training accidents and are buried in Oklahoma cemeteries. Their graves are tended to this day by Oklahomans who honor them for making the ultimate sacrifice in the defense of freedom.

FROM TULSA AIR AND SPACE MUSEUM.
Planned are several activities to play tribute to these World War II British cadets.

Beginning at 10:00 AM

Military vehicles on display

Book Signing

Paula K. Denson of Ponca City, author of The Royal Air Force in Oklahoma: Lives, Love and Courage of the British Aircrews Trained in Oklahoma During World War II.

Aircraft on display (weather permitting)

AT-6 10:15 AM arrival

BT-13 10:20 AM arrival

Aircraft will depart at approximately 4:00 PM. (Schedule is subject to change.)

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Thanks Brakedwell for offer of lenses, but I do have some of the type already mentioned Stadium MK V111.

REG I watched T.V program , excellent.

Icare9
22nd Jul 2009, 18:50
Paula K. Denson of Ponca City, author of The Royal Air Force in Oklahoma: Lives, Loves and Courage of the British Aircrews Trained in Oklahoma During World War II.
What's with all this "Loves" business then? Leave some broken hearts behind.... perhaps we'll need a password protected site so you can tell us all about the "racy" stuff!!!!
For those who missed Reg's performance, it is still available on "Catch-Up" until tomorrow, so I suggest you all do so (and record it too!) so you can see Mr "Dapper" in all his glory (must have taken the make up department a while!!).
For those who can, the Bleriot 100th Anniversary flight commemoration is 24th and 25th (that's this Friday/Sat coming), with 4 Bleriot replicas (one original) and sundry other microlights heading for The Duke of Wellington playing fields (that's the School in Dover, NOT Waterloo!!). The Dover webasite has full details, so you can check whats on and when.
Reg will probably be signing autographs - for charity!!! No, I just made that up!!
Hope the weather holds.

regle
22nd Jul 2009, 21:59
I care9... The dates for the Bleriot celebration are Saturday the 25th. and Sunday the 26th. It should be good and the forecast for the weather is a sunny weekend. The Red Arrows and their French equivalent are due plus some 300 microlights (French , British and Belgian pilots ) coming over and also a genuine Bleriot IX monoplane not a replica is , winds permitting, going to reenact the celebrated flight ( but not the original landing, I hope. ) All this plus other shows and a whole array of French, Italian ( I am told ) and British shops along the Marine Parade should make for a very good couple of days. I shall not be signing anything ! And I swear by all that I hold dear that no makeup was even considered. There were mutterings of nothing could be done to improve on what nature had inflicted ! Best regards. Reg. PS If you must , the "Catch Up" programme is available for three weeks, not three days.

thegypsy
27th Jul 2009, 17:04
Thought this thread needs to get back on the front page!

Reg I see the Swedish guy got his Bleriot across the Channel.

Reg I used your TV appearance as a guinea pig to try out my new Sky+ machine to record so you are preserved for posterity:ugh:

Cliffnemo Where are you?

cliffnemo
28th Jul 2009, 11:03
Stop press .
After many threatening emails and phone calls.(and Offcom say no more than five days.) after two weeks I received my M.A.C Number, and informed changeover date will be August the third.

Gypsy.
Great to hear from you again. I have also just had my new Sky + H.D box and H.D television installed, and very pleased with it. Still waiting for Broadband change.
Cliffnemo Where are you?

Don’t quite understand the question. Herewith possible answers.
Location? - Liverpool or La La Land.
Where have I been the last few days? - Battling with Sky and B.T


ICARE ,
I think ‘Loves ‘ refers to our love of the A.T.6, of solo aerobatics., and most of our instructors .Far be it from me to have anything to do with the beautiful ladies of Ponca City, but back to more serious matters., such as training at Bottesford.

GOOSEQUILL.
There were two different stores systems in the R.A.F, system A, and system B. System B was used by stores in war zones. Under system A, modelled on a system used by Woolworths pre war, each stock sheet was issued by a senior officer numbered, date stamped, and would be very difficult to remove or alter,- in war zones stock sheets were unsigned, so complete records could be removed and replaced with a better looking copy. Any ‘Store bashers’ out there to confirm or dispute?

Our next flight after our trip to the Scilly Isles was to practice high level bombing, all on MK1 & MK 111 Lancasters This was carried at our bombing range at Alkborough, situated at the side of the river Trent, South of its confluence with the Humber. This took two hours so I would guess this would include returning to our airfield to ‘bomb up’ again more than once. The following days we had two hours exercise 12 (Landing into wind) . Two hours on the Link Trainer. Two hours fifteen minutes high level bombing and fighter affiliation . One hour instrument flying. One hour navigation , course flying.. Five hours twenty minutes a cross country and high level bombing . This was followed by a trip to Tours, of six hours twenty five minutes. Which I think would be a diversion raid dropping ‘Windows’ Most readers will know about the use of ‘Windows’ , but for those who do not, Strips of sliver paper were folded and packed in large bundles which when dropped from an aircraft, unfolded and floated down to earth, each strip would appear on German radar as an aircraft, and hopefully confuse the operators. The F/E removed the binding from each pack before dropping it down the flare shoot by his right foot. I think this must have been a diversion raid, as on return we had to divert to Dishforth due to bad vis at Bottesford and landed together with hundreds of other aircraft.. Think I may have said previously that this happened at Hemswell but my log book says , Bottesford. Sorry. Another cross country flight of five hours fifty minutes, which also included high level bombing , and training on H2S. One more high level bombing exercise , giving a total of fifty four hours, after which we were posted to Hemswell.

I have just found a map headed Antwerp, and thought I would reproduce it below as it shows a track penciled in but with no course, so must have been used for map reading by a previous user. As it possibly shows the route an aircraft took to tow gliders to or drop parachutists at, Arnhem, I thought it might be of interest to some people. The penciled line may be faint (below), but it shows a track outward bound over Malines, to a T.P near Leende, then N.E over Helmond, to a T.P at Pannerden and N.W to a T.P at Hoissen just South of Arnhem. Would this be the place where the Gliders were released ?. The track then shows they return in a straight line over Hertogenbosch, and North of Antwerp.. ( I must be a kleptomaniac)

Don't forfget control + on Vista will enlarge pic.
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/FINALARNHEMMAP246.jpg
<a href="http://s274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/?action=view&current=FINALARNHEMMAP246.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj248/cliffordleach/th_FINALARNHEMMAP246.jpg" border="0" alt="ARNHEM MAP" ></a>
I have to prepare my Beach Buggy now for the International show at R.A.F Woodvale., next Sunday. One item of great interest to the public is a Rolls Royce Merlin engine which is periodically started and run , but certainly not ‘Put through the gate’ My grandson thinks the noise is ‘wicked’, think that is the equivalent of ‘wizzo’.

regle
28th Jul 2009, 12:37
The Captains and the Kings depart" .... and leaves the world to silence and to me....... For World read Dover. The Bleriot Weekend had to be seen to be believed.... P & O's Computer crashed early the first morning and the resultant traffic jam "Gridlocked" the entire Town and it's surroundings as far back as Folkestone and Canterbury. When it recovered the weekend was a great success despite the seething Michael Carson, being and I quote him "stitched up by the French" by being refused permission to take off in his genuine Bleriot XI as being "too dangerous with the present winds" whilst permitting two French pilots, of course, to go with two replicas. Nevertheless there were various displays of Sky diving, launch rescues A wonderful display of grace and beauty from a Spitfire but , Alas , only a very brief but spectacular "Fly Past" By the Red Arrows and, I hate to say this but , an even better one from the following "Patrouille De France" ( Formation even tighter !). They came over the Castle where the Guests were assembling for one of the finest meals and evenings that I have experienced. The Steaks were the most tender that I had ever tasted, and I have eaten the fabulous "Kyoto" ones where the cattle are "beer massaged" daily by the Japanese Farmers, . They came from the nearby Alkham Valley and I now have the name of the Butcher ! There must have been over two hundred guests assembled in a most remarkable and beautiful Marquee on the lawn of the "Look out Post" jutting out of the cliff top in front of Dover Castle.
The guests included the Bleriot family with whom I aired my French and was very warmly received, Dignitaries from the Royal Aero Club, Representatives of France, Italy ,and from Dover, the (Lady") Mayor who was the unfortunate recipient of the Guest Speaker's (Gyles Brandreth) rather over the top , remarks concerning her proximity to the President of Italy's Ambassador who was sitting quite close to her and telling her how lucky that she was . She bore his remarks with great dignity and was treated to a resounding round of applause after the speeches were over. Gyle's speech was very witty and completely over the heads of the many nice Americans scattered around the room but I think that he rather got carried away with his own exuberance and went a little too far.....!
The evening culminated with a display of fireworks from the Harbour that lay below us and took me straight back to Berlin, The Ruhr (Happy Valley) ! I was fortunate in having Cliff Spink and his charming Wife as companions and we spent the whole time reminiscing and I could not believe that he was some thirty years or so younger than me . He was supposed to bring his own personal Spitfire over but told me that the tail wheel fell off or was punctured before take off. If I have strayed from the "Thread", Forgive me but I would not have been present to relate this to you if I had not "gained my brevet in WWII" Reg le Thank you "The Gypsy" for "posterising" me , in the Sky, so to speak.

x213a
28th Jul 2009, 12:59
Just want to say ...

This thread should be turned into a book!
I know I'd buy it:ok:

Cheers Cliff, and everyone.

Wander00
28th Jul 2009, 16:03
Just read "the book", or one of them. Friends here in France have just lent me a self-published modest little book of 132 pages, written in a most modest and laconic style, by a relative of theirs called James Markham, not a bomber or fighter pilot but Coastal Command, much less well reorded. The book tells the story of his selection and training, first posting to Iceland and so-on. He flew Hudsons, Mitchells (as an instructor) and Liberators, and gained an immediate DFC for the confirmed sinking of a U-boat. Sadly James died days after copies of his his book were delivered, and before he had time to sign them.

Per Ardua

RIP

Goosequill
29th Jul 2009, 07:16
Hi Cliff,

Thanks for the snippet about the Stores process - amazing how the military can on occasion make good use of precedent - I read once that the German army of WWI could load a train quicker than any other army because they had taken the trouble to watch how Barnum and Bailey's circus had done it on a pre-war trip to Germany.

If I were rich I would buy an AT6 / Harvard as I have been lucky enough to have a couple of trips. One was in Canada where I was treated to an aeros session. The second was at Biggin when some ex-Portuguese machines passed through. That one was memorable as I had front seat and had mugged up the whole of the pilot's notes for the Harvard 2B. So, when I found that it was an export model, and the starter PEDAL was hidden behind the control column, and the instruments were marked up in KiloNapoleons per cubic Bismarck it was a bit of a shock. Nice flight though, it handled like a big Chipmunk.

Yes, lottery win please...

Dave

Wander00
29th Jul 2009, 10:38
As former GD/P turned blunt, one of my most memorable flights was also an hour in a Harvard, at Boscombe Down when I was on the Command Acounts (ducks for supersonic brickbats) Team in the late 80s. My wife still tells people that I got back to Brampton still wearing the silliest grin she had ever seen. Said I had it again on Saturday, after gliding at Fontenay-le-Comte.

regle
29th Jul 2009, 10:54
Try flying Bostons ordered by the French to their specifications but delivered to the RAF (Swanton Morley 226 Sqdn.1942) after the French surrender. The aircraft itself was one of the heaviest on the controls that I ever flew. Each member of the three man crew was completely , physically , isolated from the others , Navigator, Nose cone, Pilot, Cockpit, M/U Gunner, turret. and , for a VERY short time, the throttles (Two) worked the opposite way to normal . i.e. Fully Closed...T/O. Fully Open...Idle. Use your imagination to visualise the type of accident(s) this produced !
I, also flew the AT6 for over 60 hours when training at Advanced Training, Turner Field , Albany. GA. in 1941 Jan.1942. It was the end of the training that gave us 200 hours of the best available training in the world, at that time. We, most of us, found the Harvard a good but demanding plane. You had to keep your wits about you all the time especially on the landing run as "Ground Loops" were common with the semi-steerable tailwheel that was fitted. It was a good trainer because of the slightly unforgiving characteristics of the aerobatics which had to be performed correctly to avoid unpleasant but still recoverable situations.
Regle.
WanderOO. You should know , living in France, what that "silly grin" signifies. It is worn by most Pilots after completing a satisfactory flight, sometimes inwardly if that is possible. It is sheer "Joie de Vivre ".

Molemot
29th Jul 2009, 13:34
I never realised that some aircraft designer was perverse enough to provide throttles working in the inverse sense!! Back in 1978, when I bought a Freeman 22 cabin cruiser, I found that the throttle on that was also operating backwards...it was the first modification I made, as I knew that closing the throttle on approaching a lock would have lead to a re-enactment of the St.Nazaire raid! Forward to go faster..was ever the way.

Wander00
29th Jul 2009, 13:53
I believe that I have read that the standard French aircraft spec, indiginous or bought abroad, was for throttles opening on moving them rearwards. I asume that they don't do the same with modern aircraft!

cliffnemo
29th Jul 2009, 14:58
Think I have mentioned it before, but we were told standard spec wherever possible was , controls should be 'instinctive' and all services 'fail safe'. Fail safe seems a bit of misnomer, but meant items such as superchargers should switch to M gear ready for landing, on loss of electro/pnuematic supply.

regle
29th Jul 2009, 16:17
Cliff, tell that to Douglas when they designed the DC10.......I flew it for four years and survived ! Regle

Goosequill
30th Jul 2009, 07:36
Hi Reg,

Reverse-working throttles is just plain weird, but I do remember a Biggles book in which our hero steals a German machine and realises the throttle works in the reverse sense.

My own landing in the Harvard was a trifle bumpy. I was fooled by that lovely view over that yard-wide engine cover when I was nose down with flaps and undercarriage deployed. Then I rounded out - and the county of Kent disappeared behind this wall of North American aluminum. I was on the short runway, the one with the dip in the middle, which did not help.

The export model had a slight refinement to the steerable tailwheel. When you wanted to make a tight turn you pushed the control column fully forward and the tailwheel then unlocked. I understand the Mustang has the same arrangement. I also read somewhere that the Mustang is actually easier to fly than the Harvard. Hmmm...

Cheers,

Dave

regle
30th Jul 2009, 18:00
It may be of interest to some of you that the recent media interest in the sad result of the destruction of the Steel Works at Corby near Northampton would have an R.A.F connection .
From early 1942 onwards because of the reasonable proximity of these outstanding landmarks, the Corby Steel Works, to the majority of the light bomber Squadrons of 2 Group, Bomber Command stations they were extensively used as target practice for the Blenheims , Bostons, Venturas and the first two Mosquito Sqdns. I am sure that many of the workers cursed us and dived for cover when we swept over them at nought feet. They were the perfect facsimile for the raid on the Phillips Factory at Eindhoven in Holland. late 1942. They were also called by all of us "The 2 Group Bombing Range ". Thought it might be of current interest. REgle

Union Jack
30th Jul 2009, 18:21
Thought it might be of current interest. REgle

A very interesting footnote indeed to a very sad affair.

Salaams and delighted to see you on ITV.:ok:

Jack

PS Reg - Looking at your signature in your last post, as copied above, perhaps you should reassure us, and the man himself, that you are not metamorphing into BEagle!:)

regle
30th Jul 2009, 21:26
A mere slip of the hift, oops, shi....wait for it...ft key. Regle.

cliffnemo
31st Jul 2009, 10:39
Cliff, tell that to Douglas when they designed the DC10.......I flew it for four years and survived ! Regle

Reversed throttle ?

It could not happen today. Up with it, we would not put . Our M.E.P.S would make laws and regulations to stop such serious things happening.

Wiley
31st Jul 2009, 11:28
Goosequill, you're right about the tail wheel steering on the Mustang and (I understand, only some) Havards and your description of unlocking it is accurate. To re-lock it, the control column was held full back and the rudders jiggled until you felt the pin slip back into the cam to make the tailwheel steerable again.

The Winjeel, (Australian equivalent of the Piston Provost) borrowed the system from the Australian-produced Mustang, and clever dick student pilots quickly learned that a very good 'last manoeuvre' after a session of aerobatics was a practice stall, where you, while entering said stall, wiggled the rudders manfully while holding the control column as far back into your stomach as possible to (hopefully) re-lock the tailwheel steering, in case your negative 'G' manoeuvres had unlocked it.

Returning to the circuit, if crosswinds were present, with the tailwheel unlocked could sometimes result in a sweeping and rather too rapid view of the whole perimeter of the Base, a.k.a. as groundloop.

The Wirraway, (the Australian version of the Havard) was very prone to groundlooping, and in the days when it was the RAAF's primary trainer, the Framies kept a supply of wing tips at the back of the hangar to replace those bent and buggered by student pilots.

There was one incident in particular in a Wirraway that some might enjoy reading. It’s a true story.
FIRST SOLO

Until the late 1950’s, the mainstay of the RAAF’s training squadrons was the Wirraway, the very aircraft the Pacific War’s first Kamikazes - Australians - faced the Japanese Zeros in 1942. Yes, it was a trainer, the Australian version of the venerable North American Havard, or AT6, but in 1942, it was all we had to pit against the Zero, probably the best fighter in the world at that stage of the war.

Readers who doubt that Australia fielded suicide pilots three years before the Japanese in World War Two might not be aware that at Rabaul in New Britain in early 1942, just before he stepped into his Wirraway to do battle with the advancing and seemingly unstoppable Japanese Grand Fleet and its hundreds of Zeros, the Commanding Officer of the single - and under strength - RAAF Squadron based there sent a signal to RAAF Headquarters in Melbourne: “Morituri te salutant, Caesar.” – We who are about to die salute thee, Caesar - the salute of the gladiators in the arenas of ancient Rome.

They did, to a man.

Most trainees, in their teens or early twenties, got to love the Wirraway, but few would disagree that it was a bit like taking your initial driving lessons in a Mack truck - just a little daunting at first.

The Wirraway’s major vice was its tendency to ground loop - to spin around itself in ever decreasing circles during landing, a bit like a dog chasing its tail, sometimes even digging a wingtip into the ground. This tendency was made worse in any hint of a cross wind - and as any flying instructor will tell you, if there isn’t a crosswind, the average student pilot will create one for himself.

Our hero in this incident went on to become a highly regarded senior Hercules captain. But on this day he was a rather callow trainee pilot - all ears, baggy flying suit and oversize boots, and he was approaching that most memorable moment for any trainee pilot - his first solo.

A young aviator’s first hero is the Flying Instructor, particularly his instructor. Now we’d all like to think - (particularly we old instructors) - that all instructors are John Wayne or Tom Cruise clones. But in reality, instructors come in all shapes and sizes - and to say that our hero’s instructor was a little overweight would be an understatement.

For a trainee’s first solo, the instructor first flies a couple of circuits with him. If he is happy with what he sees, he tells the student to taxi back to the threshold of the active runway. That taxi back to the threshold the first time as ‘Sir’ unstraps himself, perhaps passing on some last gem of advice, (“Now don’t bloody kill yourself, Bloggs, I couldn’t handle the paperwork!”), is the most exhilarating to date of his flying career. Moments later it is surpassed as he gets airborne with that empty back seat, and without the drone of Sir’s voice in the headset.

But Sir is not far away, because for those first few solo trips, he watches closely, and sometimes a little nervously, from ‘the Pie Cart’, a multi-coloured, radio-equipped trailer parked right beside the runway threshold. From there, each instructor can give help or advice to his particular student should it be required.

On the day in question, our hero finally demonstrated to Sir that he could consistently land the aircraft more or less safely, and Sir gave that fateful order, “Make it a full stop and take me to the Pie Cart.”

In those days, aircrew were issued with a personal parachute, an ungainly bundle which doubled as the seat cushion. Years of exhaustive testing had ensured that its oversized buckles protruded excruciatingly into every part of the pilot’s anatomy that touched the parachute bum pack.

To walk erect wearing a bum pack parachute was only possible with the crotch straps loosened. Uncomfortable as this may have been, it was far easier than carrying the heavy parachute in your hands. Consequently, our overweight instructor left his parachute loosely fastened as he climbed out of the aircraft and into the Pie Cart to observe his boy’s first solo, which usually consisted of two circuits – i.e., after the first landing, the student would apply power and immediately take off again to make a second, this time full stop landing.

Our hero got airborne successfully, and approached for his first solo landing. All went well, but as he applied power on his touch and go, the Wirraway’s reputation for ground looping was once again reinforced. The aircraft started to swing, corrected, and swung again into a tightening ground loop, the instructor watching helplessly from the Pie Cart.

As far as ground loops go, this one was a doozey. The aircraft’s wing tip dug into the ground, the tail rose and the aircraft rolled sideways, completely destroying the wings, propeller, and tail. With bits of airframe flying in all directions and the whole scene swathed in a growing pall of dust, Sir leapt from the Pie Cart, and with his parachute banging against his buttocks, sprinted - for the first time in ten years - to where the remains of the aircraft were finally coming to rest.

On arriving, he was confronted by a battered cigar shape of the fuselage becoming visible as the dust settled. Inside the shattered cockpit sat our hero - completely unscathed. Fearful of fire, Sir extricated him from the cockpit and led him away from the aircraft.

Adrenaline fast draining, Sir’s body at last got the message through to his brain that three-minute miles were a bit beyond it, thank you very much. He promptly collapsed exhausted upon the ground beside his rather bemused student.

At this moment, the Fire Engines and Ambulance screeched to a halt beside the two pilots, and taking in the scene in a moment - the injured pilot lying on the ground, pulled from the wreckage by his heroic colleague seen running to the rescue - the Medicos went into their act. As they lifted the still panting instructor onto a stretcher, he went into a creditable outboard motor impersonation (“But, but, but...!”).

However, knowing the dangers of shock, the doctor, who had arrived at the scene within seconds of the Ambulance and Fire Engines, injected him with a sedative sending the already exhausted body quickly into a narcotic sleep.

Our hero meanwhile was left standing among the chaos of fire hoses, foam, and disappointed Firemen (no fire!).

As the crowd gathered, the Chief Flying Instructor joined the throng. Espying our hero, in a moment he took in what had happened. (CFIs are like that.) He realised that if our hero was given any time to think about what had happened, he would almost certainly baulk at ever getting into an aeroplane again. After ensuring that the boy was unharmed, the CFI got him into another aircraft immediately, took him up for a circuit, was happy with what he saw, and sent him solo - again.

Most people on the base that day agreed that the events of the day were a little extraordinary. After standdown that day, all retired to the bar where our hero was plied with congratulatory drinks by all. After all, it’s not often a young man goes solo, totally writes off an aeroplane, and goes solo a second time, and all in the one day!

By around 9 pm, sobriety amongst the off-duty personnel on the base was in short supply. By that time, the instructor had at last recovered from the well-meaning attention of the Base Medical Section, and been able to convince them that they had the wrong body in their hospital. It is standard procedure to keep an accident victim in hospital overnight for observation. Consequently, at 9 pm, the doors of the Mess bar swung open as two stretcher-bearing medical orderlies trotted into the bar, grasped Our by now very rubber-legged Hero, lay him upon it, and took him off to the Sick Bay for the night.

I am led to believe that he was feeling no pain and did not require a sedative.

regle
31st Jul 2009, 14:09
Superlative ! I have laughed myself silly at your wonderful description of the Solo. Your "asides" are gems of wisdom. More from you, please, Regle

Wiley
31st Jul 2009, 14:54
Reagle, how could I refuse? You wish is my command etc... From long ago written notes that no publisher thought anyone would ever be interested in.
___________________

In 1967, there were still a number of World War 2 veterans in the RAAF. Among the officers at least, most of these veterans fitted into two very distinct categories.

The first were those minor gods - (to eighteen year old Cadets Aircrew at least) - senior officers with two and sometimes three rows of medals and campaign ribbons under the coveted wings on their chests. Some wore the golden eagle of a Pathfinder, a man who had flown in one of the expert squadrons of Bomber Command, and had survived at least two tours over Germany. Over a beer in the bar it was sometimes whispered that Wing Commander Blunt, that rather ordinary looking Commanding Officer of Base Squadron, had flown Spitfires, and had shot down two Messerschmitts before being shot down himself and escaping through France. He had even spent some time during his escape with the French Resistance, (gasps of wonder!) while Group Captain Evenblunter over there had flown Mosquitoes on some of the precision low-level raids in Europe. (Wow!)

This first category presented us Cadets with something of a problem. We’d seen all those black and white World War 2 English movies starring Richard Todd or Kenneth Moore. All the pilots had been dashing heroes who had no time for the ‘blunties’ – i.e., all those boring people in the Air Force who were over 25 years of age and did not fly (or aspire to fly) high performance aircraft. There had always been the token Australian in those films - and he was always a hard-drinking, outrageous extrovert who could outdo anyone at anything, (just as we all imagined – knew - we were).

Looking back, I seem to remember the token Australian and his crew usually died in a flaming bomber towards the end of the movie just so the ‘terribly terribly’ English leading man could give our dead Colonial’s grieving English girlfriend a shoulder (or considerably more) to cry on, or failing that, be seen to write a touching personal letter to Sheila – (she was always called Sheila) - back in Oz. “England and the Empire will never forget his sacrifice.” Just try as an Australian to get through Immigration at Heathrow today to see how the English have remembered all those sacrifices for the Empire!

These senior officers just did not fit the mould, for to a man, they seemed remarkably like the old ‘blunt’ RAF-types those very heroes treated so disdainfully in those stirring, stiff upper lip films. It seemed hard to believe that they had ever been as young as we were, and unthinkable to imagine that we might one day be as old as they were.

The second category was the old Flight Lieutenants and Flight Sergeants, all of them by then far too old to be still in the General Duties - (the flying) - Branch of the Service. They were now working as Operations Officers or Air Traffic Controllers, however they sported the coveted pilot’s brevet on their chests over impressive rows of faded, mulitcoloured ribbons. They were nothing like the senior blunties. Few of them were as romantic as the movie heroes, but they were characters, almost to a man. When one of them got an audience in the bar late on Friday night, it was not just their stories that were entertaining. It was the offhand asides sometimes made during these yarns that made us realise that some of these men had really been there, done that - and in most cases, got considerably more than the T-shirt.

Their stories were always funny, and never heroic or serious. What these veterans spoke of was the humour of war, but more often just of flying. Sometimes that humour was terribly black, and to a civilian, might seem horribly callous.

These men had flown aeroplanes - (that’s what we called them then, not airplanes) - and they had flown not just aeroplanes, (which would have been enough for us), but the classics: Spitfires and Hurricanes, Mosquitoes and Lancasters, Beaufighters, Mustangs and Kittyhawks - the aeroplanes which had probably originally stirred the imagination of many of us to want to fly in the first place.

We would drink in as much lore as they would offer. Sometimes the conversation would turn to life on a squadron - something we all looked forward to at the end of our Pilot’s Course. This was a mystery to most of us, and any information offered we grasped eagerly. Guarded tales were muttered of traps for young players, and tales were told of this or that fellow’s demise after infringing some unwritten taboo, his career forever blighted. “Yeah, poor bastard ended up as Officer in Charge of goose-neck flares at Meekatharra.” (Meekatharra is about as close to the end of the earth as man has yet settled, and in the Sixties at least, a place seldom visited by outsiders. ‘Officer in Charge Goose Neck Flares at Meekatharra’ was a mythical posting reserved for a man who had erred mightily within the Service, either professionally or socially. Being caught in bed with his CO’s wife was the sort of thing that might win a young officer such a posting. (It’s happened, and more than once!) OiC Beach Umbrellas at Heard Island (near Antarctica) was another variation.)

So, one Friday night, one such visitor to the Cadets’ Club leaned back, elbows on the bar, and said to his attentive audience “Of course, you’ve all heard the story of the oldest Pilot Officer in the Air Force.”

The chorus of wide-eyed Cadets replied “No-o.”

And so, beer replenished, he began his story:


THE OLDEST PILOT OFFICER IN THE AIR FORCE

“Back in the very early days of the Battle of Britain, pilots on immediate standby had to sit strapped into their cockpits for hours on end awaiting a German raid. On cool days, they would have to run their engine for a short time every half hour or so to keep the oil warm enough to allow an immediate takeoff should they be scrambled.

“Anyone who has had to sit on a parachute bum pack for any length of time will attest that this is an exquisite form of torture. Our man - we’ll call him Pilot Officer Bloggs - possessed one item no other pilot on the Station had - a living, breathing pet chimpanzee. With the co-operation of his fitter, he had the perfect system worked out. Dressed in a uniform jacket and flying helmet and goggles, the chimp would sit in P/O Bloggs’ aircraft, the fitter climbing up onto the wing and starting the engine whenever the oil required warming. P/O Bloggs meanwhile would sit in his canvas easy chair in the shade of a tree behind the aircraft. Should the squadron be scrambled, the fitter would leap up, start the engine and grab the chimp as Bloggs struggled into his parachute and climbed into the cockpit. He was usually the last airborne, but in the heat of a scramble, none of the heavies ever noticed. Few of his fellow pilots begrudged him his comfort. Most only wished they had thought of it themselves.

“On the fateful day, P/O Bloggs felt a pressing call of nature that could not be attended to against a tree. The fitter was up on the wing giving the engine a run, so he was reassured that the chimp was in good hands. While he was attending to this call, the scramble bell rang. Trying to button his fly while sprinting back to his aircraft, he was horrified to see his aircraft taxiing at high speed across the grass with the rest of the squadron, its tail already lifting, as his aircraft - and chimp - took off to do battle with the enemy.”

By the time the storyteller had reached this point, most listeners at the bar were in gales of laughter. The storyteller knew his audience though. He knew that there would have to be one amongst the listeners who would ask that question.

Pausing, he looked around the circle over his raised glass, and had probably picked his patsy before the question was asked. The little voice piped up to ask as the laughter died down: “But what happened to the chimp?”

This was the cue for the real punch line to the story: “Well-l, d’you see that Group Captain over there...”

Fareastdriver
31st Jul 2009, 18:33
Just try as an Australian to get through Immigration at Heathrow today to see how the English have remembered all those sacrifices for the Empire

How true, How Bl@@dy true.

was a mythical posting reserved for a man who had erred mightily

Assistant Family's Officer at Saxa Vord in my time.

regle
31st Jul 2009, 22:22
Just try and get back in to England when you are British and the bearded Immigration Officer is wearing a Turban and last met you in Calcutta !
Pariah postings ? I used to land on an Island in the Gulf called Masirah where the only inhabitants were 14 "erks" and a F/O C.O. and "Jankers consisted of guarding the only plant on the island ....a tomato plant surrounded by barbed wire. They were all allowed to meet the DC 3 to ogle the solitary Indian Stew but were not allowed to go near the Steward !
Seriously , my first CO on Blenheims and then the first Mosquito Squadron was Hughie Edwards VC.,DSO, DFC etc. and later Governor of somewhere called Western Australia I think. On the SQdn (105) my best "Oppo" until he was shot down was Bill Blessing and another Blenheim Aussie whom I took on home on leave to the delights of Blackpool, PO Charlie Graham, later missing. I had a very high ranking pupil when I was at the Empire Flying School who was burdened with the name of Kingsford-Smith ...all of them the salt of the Earth and much missed.
I loved the chimp story and had never heard it before but I have certainly met that Group Captain, in fact I think that he had been promoted and had produced many look alikes. Encore, Regle

Goosequill
1st Aug 2009, 07:37
Hi Reg,

You may not have realised that by using the innocent phrase "my first CO on Blenheims..." you have just punched the attention button of info-gannets like myself. I don't suppose you could tell us a bit about what the Blenheim was like to play with; any virtues, vices, idiosyncrasies, etc? Any stories about them that you think might be of interest to the history buff?

I personally would be quite happy with less than 100,000 words on the subject. Of course, the other junkies on the thread may not be...

Cheers,

Dave

Goosequill
1st Aug 2009, 08:01
Hi Wiley,

An Oz correspondent sent me a pic or two of the Winjeel and it looks a rather neat machine. I also found a shot of the Winjeel production line some time ago (not terribly high quality, but interesting) and I would be happy to post it to this thread if someone could take five to tell me how to do it - never done it before.

Meanwhile, a small furry animal story:

A charter plane of rugger players (natch) and supporters crashes on landing; no survivors. At the inquest, a policeman turns up to tell the coroner that actually there was a survivor, a monkey; an intelligent animal that can communicate by gesture. So, the (somewhat dubious) coroner has the monkey sworn in (don't ask, but it involves a bag of peanuts...) and starts to question him.

What was happening on the plane just before the crash?
Monkey raises elbow in time-honoured gesture of drinking.
Coroner shakes head in disapproval.

What else was happening?
Monkey gives impression of someone dealing cards.
Coroner shakes head again.

Anything else happening?
Monkey places left hand in pit of right elbow and gives time-honoured gesture of rampant sex.
Coroner shakes head in total disbelief.

And what were you doing at the time?
Monkey gives impression of operating a control column and throttle...

Cheers,

Dave