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Danny42C
8th Sep 2016, 19:10
Nutloose,

Thank you - just shows, you can't keep a good man down !

"Boss" Hindley (AFC but not DFC) was the best of "Bosses" - even though he did send me off on a bright summer day from Valley to St. Athan in a Spitfire to "pick up some MT spares" - which turned out to be two massive truck brake drums ! (Story on p.181 #3619 and p.182 #3629).

Incredibly small world: some fifty years later we were visiting my brother-in-law in a North Yorkshire Retirement Home. It was a Christmas lunch, and an elderly Indian lady was across the table. Somehow the topic of Alex Hindley's Company came up: "did you ever come across him ?" I asked. "He was my Boss" she replied.

You couldn't invent it!

Danny.

MPN11
9th Sep 2016, 00:08
Danny... we are not allowed to re-post the pictures, I regret. In any case, they are just the course photos, and contain nothing of a technical nature. Sadly the Radar/GCA Op courses only go back to around 130 course. Perhaps another Dead Sea Scroll will be discovered in a Shawbury basement later?

Danny42C
9th Sep 2016, 10:51
MPN11,

A pity. Never mind. And I would surmise that the Missing Scrolls covered the early years with the old "Bendix" (MPN-1), and when that was replaced at Sleap by the far superior CPN-4, the records of the Bendix Courses followed the old thing into the bin.

On second thoughts, not quite ! There was a Bendix kept in mothballs at Gatow as late as 1961 (and hurriedly put back into service when the Wall went up and a second Airlift was on the cards). A hue and cry went round RAF(G) to find old hairies who could still work the thing.

Many were the tales told of the early days at Sleap, where the dastardly Marshalls pilots (mostly ex-FAA, I hasten to add) would take their Chipmunks and hide behind the Wrekin, refuse to answer the R/T, and reduce some (usually) girl student to floods of hysterical tears, believing she'd killed her man.

Another ploy was when two Chipmunks were under control of one student. 'A' would enter the 'dark area' in the radar shadow of the Wrekin from one direction, 'B' from another. Once out of radar sight, each would do a smart 180, and 'A' would emege on the same heading as 'B'had gone in, and vice versa, and the stude would have two misidents on his/her hands.... How we laughed !

The girls quickly learned never to say "you're in my dark area" - for that provoked unseemly rejoinders.

But they were good days.....................Danny. :ok:

NutLoose
9th Sep 2016, 11:57
Hey Danny, something to make you smile

Vengeance-EZ897 (http://www.rafcommands.com/galleries/SEAC/Vultee-Vengeance/Vengeance-EZ897)

http://www.rafcommands.com/galleries/SEAC/Vultee-Vengeance/Drigh-Road-Aircraft

http://www.rafcommands.com/galleries/SEAC/Vultee-Vengeance/DrighRoad-Vengeances-AN796

http://www.rafcommands.com/galleries/SEAC/Vultee-Vengeance/EZ854-Vengeance

http://www.rafcommands.com/galleries/SEAC/Vultee-Vengeance/Vengeance-AP114

http://www.rafcommands.com/galleries/SEAC/Vultee-Vengeance/TakingOff

Danny42C
9th Sep 2016, 15:17
Nutloose,

Thanks !

"...AN796"

What on earth is that thing aticking out of the port leading edge? (probably no armament at all fitted, as nothing in the rear, but in any case wing guns all buried deep in wing).

VV pitot head is on outer tip of stbd wing - good view on last link "...Taking Off"

Danny.

Stanwell
9th Sep 2016, 15:53
'.. sticking out of the leading edge'?
Displaced blast-tube?

Danny42C
9th Sep 2016, 17:11
Stanwell,

Got out the magnifying glass (old eyes not so good today). Clearly a thin metal hollow tube in the right place.

You are correct, Sir ! - thank you.

(Used on occasion to make unwelcome appearance on firing) - the gun mountings were not man enough for the job, vibration worked the gun loose. First sign was when the rounds started to touch the tube side on the way out. They imparted enough push to slide the tube slowly forward and out (it did not seem they were locked in position in any way). If you kept on firing (not recommended), or had a "runaway gun", things got worse and the rounds popped out all over the leading edge.

A rare occurance, as you were lucky if the (original fit) 0.300 Brownings got 20 rounds away before a stoppage. That was one reason why all the Mks I and II supplied to you and to us in India had the rear two replaced with British 0.303s. Also, the 0.303 was a "open-bolt" gun, so could not (should not ?) runaway unless the trigger was pressed or defective. We did not bother with the front ones, as they were hardly ever used.

Don't know anything about the 0.50s in the Mk.IV.

Danny.

Chugalug2
11th Sep 2016, 09:04
Nutloose, fascinating pics indeed, thank you! In particular the "Elephants' Graveyard" at Drigh Road must be a very sad one for you, Danny. Is this where all the RAF ones in India (then) ended up, ie just outside Karachi? Presumably once stripped of props, engines, instruments, radios etc, they then fell to the scrap merchant's axe. At least the Hastings ended up in the main dispersed, as "one off" trainers for various RAF Stations' Fire Sections to practice on and so fulfilling their duty to the very end...

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x199/chugalug2/DrighRoad20Vengeances20AN796_zpsbxqi6cgc.jpg

On second thoughts, have I got it all wrong, and are these not being stripped but assembled? The RAF (as against SEAC) roundels might be a clue?

Danny42C
11th Sep 2016, 12:39
Chugalug (#9260),
...Presumably once stripped of props, engines, instruments, radios etc, they then fell to the scrap merchant's axe...Yes, in the early days these would have been "British Contract" (ie we'd bought them for scarce (borrowed) dollars). So we could do what we liked with them. In the end all mine (Mk.IIIs) were Lend-Lease; we had to destroy them. I was ordered to chop mine up and burn them where they stood. Luckily wiser counsels prevailed: we flew them to a MU in Nagpur to be scrapped.
...On second thoughts, have I got it all wrong, and are these not being stripped but assembled? The RAF (as against SEAC) roundels might be a clue?...Spot on ! These are clearly "fresh off the boat", as evidenced by the protective packing on the front screens, the pristine hand holes along the fuselsge (what does the little notice say ? ["Hand Hold"], I suppose), no sign of SEAC roundels, squadron letters or nose art. Mint condition.

Perhaps this batch were some of the first ones assembled "by guess and by God ", and they hadn't found the (12 ft) propellers (check the box again !) yet. The dark vertical lines on the fuselage have me foxed. Any ideas ?

Cheers, Danny.

Stanwell
11th Sep 2016, 12:46
Loved that one... "check the box again".
"The dark vertical lines.."?
Visual indicators to help locate the toe-steps when alighting - particularly for the gunner.

Chugalug2
11th Sep 2016, 16:38
You are as gracious as ever Danny. I started to have my doubts as soon as I had posted, but the points you make are worth any sniggering from the back of the class. So what about that errant blast tube? Just a bit of unfinished work when tiffin time was called? As to the props, perhaps they are looking for a craft knife to cut them from the sprue? :E

Danny42C
11th Sep 2016, 18:29
Stanwell (#9262),

Y-ess, now I come to look at it, the vertical dark lines are obviously for that purpose. Can't see that they would be any use, as you could see the holds going up and had to feel for them going down. So what about the little rectangular notices ? They seem to have some message on them - but what could it be ? (old eyes not so good for past few days).

Needless to say, all lines and notices long gone before we got them. Really, it was only the rear navs/gunners who used them, the pilots scrambled up the u/c leg and jumped down off the trailing edge.

Danny.

Danny42C
11th Sep 2016, 18:58
Chugalug (#9263),
... So what about that errant blast tube?...Yes, that's what it clearly is (as Stanwell gently pointed out to me); I at first could only see the brightly lit upper surface, and assumed something about as thick as a pitot head rod, but on closer inspection with magnifying glass made out the unlit lower part and the open end of a tube.
,,, Just a bit of unfinished work when tiffin time was called?...
Charwallah came round, maybe ? Pay Parade ?
... perhaps they are looking for a craft knife to cut them from the sprue...No wooden props - white ants !

Danny.

Stanwell
12th Sep 2016, 01:20
It's not your eyes, Danny.
The image is too indistinct to make out the script.
Perhaps they might say .. 'This way IN' or, they could be end-user warnings - something like .. 'All care but no responsibility'?

Keeffro
12th Sep 2016, 20:00
Lurkers within striking range of Dublin might be interested in this (pity about the missing word in the description, though! Agog to find out over which expanse of water he operated):

Upcoming Events ? Living History: Ted Jones and life in the RAF in WWII ? The Dublin Festival of History (http://dublinfestivalofhistory.ie/event/living-history-ted-jones-and-life-in-the-raf-in-wwii/)

I'm particularly interested because my brother-in-law's late father trained on Catalinas in Pensacola during WWII, and it was my attempts to find out more about this that led me to this thread.

If I have an opportunity, I'll do my best to try to recruit the speaker to this thread.

Warmtoast
12th Sep 2016, 20:11
Chugalug2

In particular the "Elephants' Graveyard" at Drigh Road must be a very sad one for you, Danny. Is this where all the RAF ones in India (then) ended up, i.e. just outside Karachi? Presumably once stripped of props, engines, instruments, radios etc., they then fell to the scrap merchant's axe. At least the Hastings ended up in the main dispersed, as "one off" trainers for various RAF Stations' Fire Sections to practice on and so fulfilling their duty to the very end...


I was at Seletar in 1958 and it was a sorry sight to see 205/209's Sunderlands being broken up for scrap by Chinese contractors as seen here in my photos:


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Changi%20%20and%20Seletar/Image5_zps3926937e.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Changi%20%20and%20Seletar/Image2.jpg

Danny42C
12th Sep 2016, 21:21
Keeffro (#9267),
...Upcoming Events ? Living History: Ted Jones and life in the RAF in WWII ? The Dublin Festival of History...
I was rather under the impression that citizens of the Republic who'd volunteered for the British Forces in WWII were not exactly welcomed as heroes when/if they came home afterwards. Has a sort of "general amnesty" for them been declared in Eire ?

Moves me to re-tell a story from a wartime "Readers' Digest", which illustrates the dichotomy perfectly. The RD man was enjoying the last rays of sunshine over the taffrail of one of the Holyhead-Dublin ferries which ran throughout the war. Next to him was an athletic young man in sports jacket and flannels; the following dialogue ensued: "Why don't you Irish allow the British the use of your Channel ports ?"..."We hate the British"..."So do you want Hitler to win this war ?"..."Of course not !"..."So what are you doing about it ?"..."I fly a Hurricane !...." This, of course, makes perfect sense to the Irish mind.
...If I have an opportunity, I'll do my best to try to recruit the speaker to this thread...
Please do - the old-timers are thin on the ground now, another one would be most welcome, and would be sure of making many new friends in this our old crewroom in cyberspace.

Danny.

Danny42C
12th Sep 2016, 21:30
Warmtoast (#9268)
...I was at Seletar in 1958 and it was a sorry sight to see 205/209's Sunderlands being broken up for scrap by Chinese contractors as seen here in my photos:...
A sad sight, indeed. And I was told the stripped hulks of the Valiants went for scrap at £75 apiece.

Sic transit........

Danny.

Keeffro
12th Sep 2016, 22:39
Oops! Forgotten how to do a quote here, but anyway:


I was rather under the impression that citizens of the Republic who'd volunteered for the British Forces in WWII were not exactly welcomed as heroes when/if they came home afterwards. Has a sort of "general amnesty" for them been declared in Eire?

Two (or more) stories here:

The Irish Free State maintained a superficially strict policy of neutrality, but a very blind eye was turned to Irishmen joining the British forces during what was known here at the time not as "the War", but "the Emergency".

However, Irish servicemen who deserted the Irish Forces to join the British were, indeed, given a raw deal, including being barred from public employment in this State for years afterwards, and some suffered many years of unemployment.

In 2012 a belated and rather symbolic act of rehabilitation was adopted by the Irish parliament at the behest of Minister Alan Shatter. Here's a newspaper report that gives a brief summary plus the main statistics: Shatter finally brings in amnesty for deserters who fought Nazis - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/shatter-finally-brings-in-amnesty-for-deserters-who-fought-nazis-29246463.html)

Shatter, being Jewish, had particular reason to honour those who fought against the Nazis, but his initiative fits in comfortably with a new willingness to recognise Irishmen who fought in the British Forces in both World Wars. This is all part of a slow process of reconciliation flowing from the Good Friday Agreement. At the moment, much of the focus (particularly since the centenary of the 1916 Rising) is on commemoration of the First World War.

I'll drip-feed a couple of further related items with more direct relevance to this thread when I have a chance to check a few facts from various books etc.

Wander00
12th Sep 2016, 23:06
I thought the idea they had at Duxford interviewing wartime aircrew as the backdrop to the display on at the time was brilliant. Sorry, did not catch the name. but the pilot telling of operating over the beaches during the "Dunkirk" item brought tears to my eyes. Thanks to all who took part


Incidentally, why does it always get forgotten that at the same time a substantial number of personnel was lifted from Southern Brittany, during which of course Lancastria was bombed and sunk with great loss of life

MPN11
13th Sep 2016, 00:00
Scrap ... they broke up 60's Javelins in F dispersal at Tengah, right below the Officers Mess, in 67/68 (?). A dozen local workers with axes and sledgehammers ... it was not a pretty sight.

I may add a couple of photos when I get home later this week. :(

Hempy
13th Sep 2016, 07:36
The Irish Free State maintained a superficially strict policy of neutrality, but a very blind eye was turned to Irishmen joining the British forces during what was known here at the time not as "the War", but "the Emergency"

Not only. Shot down Luftwaffe pilots coming to earth in Eire soon found themselves in the clink. RAF pilots in the same circumstance were back on duty shortly thereafter (after a dram or two of Bushmills).

Fareastdriver
13th Sep 2016, 09:06
Bushmills???

That's a Northern Irish whiskey produced at Bushmills, County Antrim. I know, I have been to that distillery several times as Officer I/C Airmen's Entertainment.

It would have been Jamesons; another excellent whiskey.

Ian Burgess-Barber
13th Sep 2016, 09:50
Foreign Aircraft in Ireland 1939 - 1945 (http://www.csn.ul.ie/~dan/war/crashes.htm)

You could while away an hour or two here (with a glass of Whiskey) natch!

Ian BB

Danny42C
13th Sep 2016, 10:23
À propos nothing in particular, watched "Aircrash:Terror in The Sky" (Channel 5 1900-2000 BST last evening). Having first fearfully embarked on a search for "My5" (I am as a babe unborn in IT matters), I got there in the end - and if I can do it, anyone can !)

IMHO, well worth a look if you have an idle hour. Had to put up with 2.45 mins of ads first, but a documentary of a true story followed. Apart from the first few minutes of hamming it up, the story was very well told and free of Hollywood exaggeration. They were bloody lucky to get away with it !

Danny.

Keeffro
13th Sep 2016, 10:33
Thank you, Ian,

Duly bookmarked for perusal as soon as the sun drops below the RAF equivalent of the yard arm.

That link saves me from the embarrassment of half-remembered anecdotes and possible urban myths.

Danny42C
13th Sep 2016, 10:55
Hempy,

An interesting sideline was the "accidental" bombing of Dublin by the Luftwaffe several times during WWII. A popular myth ascribed this to our ability to "bend" the Knickebein ("Crooked leg") beam navigation system used by the Luftwaffe, and so deflect bombs intended for (say) Liverpool to Dublin (this would hardly earn us Brownie points over there !)

Seems there was no truth in it. Google: "The Battle of the Beams". Wiki knows all about it.

Danny.

Warmtoast
13th Sep 2016, 19:32
Danny

Were you friendly with Roald Dahl perhaps?
Born a hundred years ago today I believe.

See below

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Roald%20Dahl%20-%20Danny%202_zpsez7ciop1.jpg

Danny42C
13th Sep 2016, 19:49
Warmtoast,

"You see ? - airminded at such an early age ! That's me all right !"

D.

Chugalug2
14th Sep 2016, 13:47
This may be of interest Danny, the RAF Historical Society & Staff College Paper #6 (March 1995), "The RAF and the Far East War 1941-1945". Page 40 gives a brief mention of the Vengeance, but other presentations cover the overall campaign by Land and Air:-

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/Research/RAF-Historical-Society-Journals/Bracknell-No-6-Far-East-Air-War.pdf

This and another five Bracknell papers together with 48 (so far) of the RAFHS Journals can be accessed here:-

RAF Historical Society Journals | Collections | Research | RAF Museum (http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/default/raf-historical-society-journals.aspx)

Details of the Society can be found here:-

RAF Historical Society Journals | Collections | Research | RAF Museum (http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/research/default/raf-historical-society-journals.aspx)

I apologise for this blatant plug, but the readers of this thread are by definition interested in RAF (and Danny's!) history and the Society puts on two Seminars and an AGM (at RAFM Hendon, and the RAF Club respectively, though Hendon often gives way to other locations). Annual sub is £18 and the Seminars tend to cost £20 for the day including Tea/Coffee and a finger buffet. Read some of the Journals to get a feel for the depth and breadth of the Seminars.

Wander00
14th Sep 2016, 15:04
I'm with Chug on this. I was introduced by a Trustee of "my" Yacht Club, a retired 2*, and I get a great deal of benefit from the Journals although regrettably, from France, attendance is a bit infrequent

DHfan
14th Sep 2016, 15:31
Re The Battle of the Beams, "Most Secret War" by Prof RV Jones covers it, and many other scientific challenges. Prof Jones was the boffin at the heart of the Secret Services throughout the war.

Available from the South American river amongst other places.

Danny42C
14th Sep 2016, 15:55
Chugalug (#9281),

Thanks for the "steer" to "The RAF and the Far East War 1941-1945" and the three links. Will keep me in reading material for quite some time. Will be interesting to see if there is any acknowledgement of the VV's good works in India/Burma/Oz - but I wouldn't hold your breath !

Danny.

Oops - forgotten the Journal seminars ! Nice idea if you're in striking distance of London, but I can hardly get further than the front door now.....D.

Chugalug2
14th Sep 2016, 20:51
Danny, I find the seminars a bit of a challenge myself, given that they usually involve travelling to/from Hendon and concentrating all day on fast flowing presentations. Hence the appeal of the Journals that encompass them all (including the bits that there wasn't time for on the day).

The latest Journal is #64, and the next Seminar is on 18th October 2016 about "Cold War Air Systems Procurement". Unfortunately for me it is being held at Filton so instead I'll read all about it in the next Journal.

Danny42C
14th Sep 2016, 21:09
Chugalug,

I have started on the first link (http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/document...st-Air-War.pdf)
My comments added as [..] - no authority except what was common knowledge (?) out there at the end of 1942.

Danny.

........................................

THE RAF AND THE FAR EAST WAR 1941-1945

p.7

Then came the appalling naval disaster as the Prince of Wales and Repulse set sail – knowing they would have no air cover –to try to attack the Japanese invasion forces, failed to achieve the surprise they needed, and turned back.

[They could have had air cover had they asked, but maintained radio silence even after they should have known they had been spotted, and sailed on until the first torpedo bomber attack. Then they turned round and started limping back home.]

Unaccountably Admiral Phillips refused to break radio silence even when the ships knew they had been spotted, and it was 1½ hours later,when the ships had been under attack for three quarters of an hour, that the Captain of Repulse – not Phillips – sent a signal to tell Singapore what was happening.]


[Phillips did break radio silence to send a signal after the first attack - but not a request for air cover against a second attack, which would surely come, but only for a tug to help get his crippled flagship back to Singapore. The tale goes that a Flt Lt Tim Vigors picked this up, and in the absence of any order from Singapore, but on his own authority, scrambled the squadron of Buffaloes, of which he was in temporary command, but they arrived only after the second, fatal attack and the P.o.W. and Repulse were on the bottom.]

Buffaloes could certainly have caused them serious problems. The question, ‘Why did Phillips not signal?’has never been satisfactorily answered – he himself did not survive – and perhaps it is Arthur Harris, who had worked with him in London..........

p.8

.........on the planning staff before the war, who gives us the clue in his parting words to his friend: ‘Tom, you’ve never believed in air. Never get out from under the air umbrella; if you do, you’ll be for it.’ Phillips we must presume had remained unpersuaded.

[He was on record as saying: "A properly handled capital ship can always defend itself against air attack" (I believe this was Naval belief at the time, and in fact AFAIK, no capital ship had been sunk by aircraft in open waters before (Taranto and Pearl Harbor were "sitting ducks").



[I]What it really came down to was the nation’s reluctance to devote enough resources to defence in the 1930s, a reluctance which nearly led to defeat in 1940 and which certainly made it impossible to prepare adequately for another major war on the other side of the world.

[Are we any wiser now ? - Will the significance of the 15th September pass unnoticed ?]

***************************

BEagle
14th Sep 2016, 21:20
Will the significance of the 15th September pass unnoticed ?

Not by me! Time to watch a certain DVD again, I reckon!

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/SYork03-1.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/nw969/media/SYork03-1.jpg.html)

:ok:

Chugalug2
14th Sep 2016, 23:03
Wise words Danny. There is still prejudice in the Senior Service, if not against air, then against the Royal Air Force. Is that why Phillips did not signal, because to do so would be requesting air cover from the RAF, as the indigenous RN air cover had been left behind having run aground?

Point of order Beagle. Damned bad form to play the Section Officer Harvey card before the 15th, damned bad form indeed, Sir!

Union Jack
15th Sep 2016, 12:53
There is still prejudice in the Senior Service, if not against air, then against the Royal Air Force. Is that why Phillips did not signal...?

May I politely enquire whether you actually mean "is" or "was", Chugalug? The former I could readily accept in view of what Danny very interestingly says but, if you mean the latter, an authoritative source, or alternatively a correction, would be welcome.

Jack

Chugalug2
15th Sep 2016, 13:17
It was, on reflection, a blatant generalisation and for that I apologise. I'm very well aware for instance of the Joint Service integration in helicopter operation that has happened since my days and no doubt with it has emerged a much closer understanding and tolerance between the two sides. The prejudice if indeed it did/does exist was never really at that level where it is more banter, friendly or otherwise. It is at the high command level that I was thinking of, ie of Phillips and above, both then and now. Are you in turn saying that is not so now, Jack?

Let's be frank. The RNAS was as an equal to the RFC, but then the RAF happened and the RN had to put up with what was I'm sure an unsatisfactory arrangement for all sides, until it regained control with the formation of the FAA. In a way we seem to be sliding back into that same unsatisfactory relationship again, the FAA having lost (temporarily?) its fixed wing component, the RAF having divested itself of its Maritime Patrol capability.

To be frank again, if I were a Lordship I'd be prejudiced too! The RN lacks indigenous air cover. So did Phillips, and look what happened to him! My comment was meant to be a comment on the existing situation (admittedly as I see it) rather than one of condemnation. I see now that wasn't obvious, and anyway it is simply my own view. I'm quite prepared to believe yours is different, but if I gave offence I'm sorry for it.

Union Jack
15th Sep 2016, 17:36
A very gracious response in every respect, Chugalug, and my compliments on your very speedy and interesting observations. My only further thought would be that a feeling of envy, rather than prejudice, would hopefully be more descriptive of current feeling at Admiralty Board level.:ok:

Jack

Chugalug2
15th Sep 2016, 19:04
If the Admiralty Board is feeling envious of the RAF then it must indeed be in a bad way. This forum is littered with news of station after station closing down, whole fleets and capabilities disappearing, and a continuing and worsening scandal involving the cover up of the loss of that most basic requirement of any air force, the very airworthiness of its aircraft! The latter is, I admit, a particular hobby horse of mine but no less real for all that.

If the outlook for the RN is worse than that then I would counsel not envy nor prejudice but reflection. For that is what I would advise for the RAF, if ever it wanted my advice! The scandal that I mentioned above was a self inflicted injury, as is the continuing cover up of it. Unless and until it is faced up to things will only get worse for the RAF.

Danny42C
15th Sep 2016, 21:11
On "Private Flying" Thread, a Boeing Stearman PT-17 (1942 vintage, US Reg: N 56200) has been much in the news lately. Setting aside the story in which it plays a major part (and which is not relevant to the query in this Post), there have been a number of excellent pictures, and these have set me thinking.

Nowhere around the structure can I see a pitot head sticking out. Although there was no ASI in the back (student's) seat (in which I flew my first 60 hours in Florida long, long ago), the instructor had an ASI in front. So there must be a pitot head somewhere - but where is it ?

("You flew the thing for 60 hours and you don't know ?"..."'fraid not"... "Didn't you have to check, on your walk-round, that the cover [with hi-vis streamer ?] was off ?"...."don't remember any such thing"...."Fat lot of use you are !")

All right, I'll go quietly - but my old eyes not as good as they were - can anyone else find the damn' thing and tell me ?

Danny.....:confused:

CoodaShooda
15th Sep 2016, 21:34
Hi Danny

There appears to be some plumbing and a short tube on the port front wing strut.

Could this be it?

Danny42C
16th Sep 2016, 12:47
CoodaShooda,

Reckon you're right ! Jay Sata's pic ("Private Flying", T.C-T, p.67 #1335) shows it to perfection. And it has two tubes leading from it, one for the dynamic and the other for the static air pressure.

How come I didn't notice it myself ? Becuse I wasn't looking for it on a strut ! - although I should have been, with a memory of that flap thing on a quadrant that the first TMs used (but not by me !)

Thanks from Danny.

Danny42C
16th Sep 2016, 13:36
BEagle and Chugalug,

The "still" from the film 'BoB' will, I hope, be remembered on every 15th September for years to come (and Section Officer Maggie Harvey [aka Susannah York RIP] will still raise a gleam in an old eye - if nowhere else !)

Seriously, not a cheep from the meejah all day (as I expected).

I suppose they are holding their fire for Battle of Britain Remembrance Sunday this weekend. Yet that day 76 years ago was the climactic day of that Battle in which (in my fulsome words somewhere on this Thread): "The R.A.F. saved this country from what was arguably its greatest danger in almost a thousand years".

My generation can take vicarious credit for that - if nothing else.

Danny.

Octane
16th Sep 2016, 14:51
Hi Danny,

This may be of interest to you, Kiwi Mossie #2 will apparently have its 1st flight on Sunday. There is a great link on the Home | Wings Over New Zealand (http://rnzaf.proboards.com/) forum in the Preserving NZ aviation history thread. Engine runups/ taxi checks etc completed. Some good video on that site. The aeroplane looks stunning. Fingers crossed for good weather Sunday.
Cheers

Michael

Danny42C
16th Sep 2016, 15:06
Michael,

Ta ! Will look it up. One of the two most beautiful aircraft the RAF ever had (the other was the Hunter) IMHO.

Danny.

Fareastdriver
16th Sep 2016, 18:09
IIRC the NZ Mosquitos cannot fly in the UK because they are assembled with modern epoxy resins. To be eligible to fly here they would have to have been (re)built using self disassembly 1940s glue.

Octane
16th Sep 2016, 23:15
That would be an odd situation, modern glues would be vastly superior to the 1940's products....

DHfan
17th Sep 2016, 15:23
Self disassembly's pretty unreasonable.
There was an in-depth analysis commissioned on the Mosquito prototype's airframe a few years ago and there's no structural reason why it couldn't fly.

Admittedly the earlier adhesives did fail, but only in tropical service. There were no problems with the later system.

Despite later epoxies being superior, it's a deviation from the original design so needs Design Authority and mountains of paperwork. The same problem arises when trying to substitute linen covering with modern fabrics.

Octane
17th Sep 2016, 15:28
Regardless, lets hope tomorrow is a good day in Auckland and best wishes to all involved :-)

DHfan
17th Sep 2016, 15:35
Agreed. After seeing three-quarters of it hanging up in Lambeth during the late sixties I never expected to see it preparing for flight 50 years later.

Fareastdriver
17th Sep 2016, 15:36
it's a deviation from the original design so needs Design Authority and mountains of paperwork

I rest my case.

Octane
17th Sep 2016, 15:40
DH, have you seen the videos of it online? Brings tears to my eyes, simply awesome, the sound of those Merlins.....!

harrym
17th Sep 2016, 16:34
Danny – can you or any other long-serving member of this group help?

While clearing out some old papers recently I unearthed two wartime publications: one being AM Pamphlet 144 'YOU are going to be a PILOT' dated 11/42, the other a locally produced guide for new arrivals at Heaton Park (October '42). Both are scanned copies rather than originals, but nevertheless of good quality and obviously authentic; certainly the Heaton Park one stirred many memories for me! Not sure how I came by them, but think they were sent by an old friend and colleague (now sadly no longer with us) who had emigrated to the US.

I have an idea these items may have previously appeared, but cannot be sure and have not yet had the time to trawl back; however if not, then obviously they should be posted up here!

harrym

pzu
17th Sep 2016, 19:22
Danny & others!!!

From F/Book today

https://www.facebook.com/TheTwoSeatSpitfirePage/posts/573541992831883:0

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

Icare9
17th Sep 2016, 21:21
Regrettably that 2 seater ML407 on Facebook (the Grace Spitfire G-LFIX) had an undercarriage issue at Sywell.
Seems damage is "slight" (probably in Spitfire terms) but no injuries and already inspections/assessments underway. https://www.facebook.com/TheTwoSeatSpitfirePage/posts/573541992831883:0

Taphappy
17th Sep 2016, 22:28
harrym

I was at Heaton Park in 44 but don't recall seeing the guide that you mention I would certainly be interested in seeing a copy of it on this thread. I am sure it would also stir up a few memories for me.

Danny42C
18th Sep 2016, 12:08
Revisiting my #9296, still not a cheep on BBC TV today. Didn't we use to have a Memorial Sunday on the Sunday following the 15th ?

Seems the Battle of Britain has been airbrushed out of meejah history.

Danny42C
19th Sep 2016, 16:19
Sic transit Gloria Mundi.


BEagle and Chugalug (my p.217, #4324 15th September 2013),

.....So ends the 73rd Anniversary of the Battle of Britain. Media interest of the day ? - 'The Great North Run' ! Ah, well....Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose !

Danny.

Danny42C
19th Sep 2016, 16:31
Smudge (Copy of my #4236, p.217, to you),

"Thank you sir. I well remember 15th September, 1940. It was at the end of a hot summer's day; the reported list of 'kills' (165, although that figure was revised downward later) was the highest yet; the date has come to be regarded as the turning point of the battle.

The British public, hardly daring to believe, began to realise that we had won the battle (although it went on for about another month before Goering, realising he could not afford the rate of attrition, called a halt).

A little 18-year old clerk resolved to volunteer for the RAF in the hope of becoming a fighter pilot (and there were many more like him)".

Cheers, Danny.

harrym
19th Sep 2016, 16:48
Taphappy-

OK I will shortly have a go at posting Air Ministry pamphlet 144 and the Heaton Park guide, the latter will have to be by instalments as it's about a dozen pages of a size somewhere between A5 & A4.

Watch this space!

harrym

mikehallam
19th Sep 2016, 18:23
Not all forgotten Danny,

Horsham West Sussex, Yesterday & published in the County Times :-

"Wreaths were laid and prayers said in Horsham town centre this morning (Sunday September 18) to mark the 76th anniversary of the Battle of Britain. The RAFA padre, the Rev Alan Meyer, led the prayers in the Carfax and wreaths were laid by Horsham MP Jeremy Quin and representatives from various groups and organisations, including Horsham District Council, the RAFA, the Police and 1015 (Horsham) Squadron Air Training Corps. The parade then marched to St Mary’s Church in the Causeway for a service.

Read more at: SLIDESHOW: RAFA Battle of Britain parade and prayers in Horsham - West Sussex County Times (http://www.wscountytimes.co.uk/news/slideshow-rafa-battle-of-britain-parade-and-prayers-in-horsham-1-7584313) "

Secondly an air display and light a/c fly-in at Stow Maries WWI original Essex airfield on the Sat & Sunday to celebrate that and its 100th birthday.

mike hallam (flew the Rans there yesterday - as I'm only 79).

Union Jack
19th Sep 2016, 18:36
Seems the Battle of Britain has been airbrushed out of meejah history. - Danny

Thankfully not completely, Danny, since there is a substantial entry concerning yesterday's 2016 Battle of Britain Thanksgiving Service, held in Westminster Abbey, on the Court and Social page of today's Daily Telegraph.

Rather poignantly, and in memory of a bomber pilot, rather than a fighter pilot, on the same page there is also a personal In Memoriam entry honouring the 72nd anniversary today of the death of Wing Commander Guy Gibson VC DSO* DFC*.

Jack

Box Brownie
19th Sep 2016, 18:48
Five into four won't go

Danny, like so many people on here, I have followed your story with interest, particularly your time at Valley and Sylt. Your time in Burma made me dig out a tape recording I made of a close friend, John Dunbar, who formed the only unit ( no Sqdn number allocated) of L5's which were used in Burma in support of IV Corps. John, sadly no longer with us, and three of his pilots pulled off a rescue from behind Japanese lines of five people.
I wonder if you and others would be interested if I were to interrupt your conversation at times with bits from the tape.

Danny42C
19th Sep 2016, 19:49
mike hallam and Jack (#9314 and #9315),

Thank you for the heartening news - it is good to hear that not everybody has forgotten the events of those momentous days.

"A nation that forgets its history is condemned to repeat it".

Danny.

MPN11
19th Sep 2016, 20:06
I wonder if you and others would be interested if I were to interrupt your conversation at times with bits from the tape.Absolutely ... this Thread is, in many ways, keeping History both alive and fascinating.

Go. For. It. :)

Danny42C
19th Sep 2016, 20:57
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/L-5futureshox.jpg/300px-L-5futureshox.jpg

STINSON L-5 "Sentinel"

Box Brownie (#9316),
...Box BI wonder if you and others would be interested if I were to interrupt your conversation at times with bits from the tape.rownie,... Yes, we would be interested ! Please do.

Let there be no more talk of "interruption". In this our little old crewroom in cyberspace (as I like to consider it), all men of good will and good humour are welcome; "Interruption" is the name of the game, providing you have something relevant to add to the conversation. Rank is forgotten here, no one is "in charge" (except our Moderators, of course, who allow us enormous latitude so long as we "play nicely"). Everyone had to start sometime.

The L-5 was in RAF service in Burma, used to "casevac" from a small field in the Arakan behind the battle. Somewhere in my Posts I've related how the Jap had managed to get a small mountain gun into a position where it could deny us the use of this strip.

The gun position was "fixed" (triangulation of gun flashes, gunsmoke, don't know) and the Vengeance called in. The gun was blown to bits, the gunners sent to join the ancestors. Normal casevac service was resumed, the Army was very grateful....:ok:

Danny.

Box Brownie
19th Sep 2016, 21:20
Thank you MPN11 and Danny. It is appreciated. As a taster the L5 was also used to drop the orders of the day as IV Corps advanced through the jungle in total radio silence. The aircraft advanced with the Army ,the L5 pilots dropping the orders of the day and on occasion landing in clearings behind Jap lines with personnel from 163 Force. John's arrival with his thirty aircraft was at Imphal just as it was being strafed, but more of that later.
I will try and put the tape into text as quickly as possible.
Ian

jeffb
20th Sep 2016, 02:33
Danny:
On Sunday, there was a BoB flyby with WWII aircraft, in Ottawa , commemorating the event. In addition, there were numerous local events, worthy of front page coverage in our local newspaper. It has not been forgotten.

Back Pressure
20th Sep 2016, 03:41
Here in Melbourne the Royal Victorian Aero Club holds the "Dawn Patrol" each year. Was Sunday 18th this year. Dozens of civil aircraft depart Moorabbin at dawn, overfly the Shrine of Remembrance and continue on for a circuit around Port Phillip Bay.
So not forgotten out here...

John Eacott
20th Sep 2016, 21:25
Here in Melbourne the Royal Victorian Aero Club holds the "Dawn Patrol" each year. Was Sunday 18th this year. Dozens of civil aircraft depart Moorabbin at dawn, overfly the Shrine of Remembrance and continue on for a circuit around Port Phillip Bay.
So not forgotten out here...

Dad was at the Shrine for the ceremony on the ground. I was in Canberra, but the Australian War Memorial had their rememberance on the day rather than on the Sunday :(

BP, how many have room for veterans? Maybe something for next year, the Odd Bods are falling off the perch with increasing rapidity.

pzu
21st Sep 2016, 10:17
Danny et al

Re 'BoB', Forces TV finally posted this link

Battle Of Britain 75: Service Of Thanksgiving | Forces TV (http://forces.tv/68726468)

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

harrym
21st Sep 2016, 15:03
TapHappy, ref your #3909 I am having difficulty in moving scanned copies of the above onto this thread in a reasonably legible form, so suggest you let me have your email address and I will send them to you as email attachments - can also do this for anyone else who may be interested.

harrym

Box Brownie
21st Sep 2016, 17:38
Flt. Lt John Dunbar DFC Five into four won't go 1

Taken from two tape recordings. John never thought the story of his pilots or a rescue from the Burmese jungle would ever be told. I was able to have an edited version published in Aeroplane during 2005.

John began his training at No26 EFTS at Theale, Berks on December 31st 1941. The course was interrupted when he was posted to No 31 EFTS in Alberta Canada followed by No38 SFTS at Estevan.

" At Estevan we started our training on Mk1 Ansons that had been used operationally in the UK, but soon progressed to the Canadian built Mk1V. No more winding the undercarriage up. On one occasion the chief flying instructor organised 2hrs of night flying for each student while he partied in the mess. This was my second night solo and I took off at midnight to do circuits and bumps. We could hear sounds from the mess and could tell the party was in full swing - we were left to our own devices.
On my first downwind leg problems arose. It was standard practice to at 1,000 ft to throttle back both engines to check the stall warning device was working, then open up and complete the rest of the checks. On opening up all went quiet! All I could do was turn towards the airfield and point the aircraft at the ground. It was pitch black and I struck the ground quite hard. The aircraft broke into a thousand pieces leaving me sitting in what remained of the cockpit, without a scratch. I got out but not a soul stirred or came near, so I began the long walk to dispersal. When I reached the flight office the duty NCO, Flt Sgt Long, looked at me and I'll never forget the look of disbelief on his face, before we went out to look at the wreckage. After an expletive, I was told to go and get a cup of tea, and trudged yet another mile to the cookhouse. Here I was met by another NCO who hated Long and refused to let me have a cup of tea unless I had a chit. Yet another slog back to Long resulted in him exploding and insisting I accompany him back to the cookhouse whereupon the two NCO's set about fighting each other. By this time I had had enough. No one had told me of their feud. It was four in the morning so I left them to it and went to bed. Amazingly, although a new Anson had been written off, no officer was involved and no-one said a word."
John was presented with his wings on September 10 1942, aged 19years and 3 months.

" Fifty four of us passed out on the SFTS course. You can imagine my feelings upon discovering that I was to be retained as a flying instructor. Not knowing that I had come top of the course I stormed into the Group Captain and said what a disgraceful decision it was, that I was the youngest on the course, that I was totally ill-equipped to be a flying instructor, and wanted to go on operations. He sat there and then said 'You are our choice and are going To No1 Flying Instructors School at Arnprior'. At this I again refused to go. He then said that if I still refused, I had the alternative of going to a radio operators' school at Winnipeg. where I would spend the rest of the war flying Tiger Moths on circuits and bumps with trainee radio operators in the back. Needless to say, I became a flying instructor for two years"

To be continued

MPN11
21st Sep 2016, 18:27
Good material, Box Brownie :ok:

Box Brownie
21st Sep 2016, 18:33
Thank you MPN11. I am still fighting my way through another tape and one is missing. John would go off at tangents, but that was great, it brought out the wider picture. The nice thing was that he didn't think any of the recordings would be published so never shot a line.

Speaking of shooting a line, I have a line book from a WW11 Hampden
squadron, which I treasure

MPN11
21st Sep 2016, 18:59
The 'off-piste' material is often more valuable than the "Official History" stuff.

Slightly OT, but I think relevant in context, I've just finished a couple of US Civil War books [one of my favourite Military topics] on Kindle.

One was a diary [effectively the Operational Record Book] of the 13th New Hampshire Regt, detailing all the little things that went on when they weren't fighting for the Union side. "Regt in Camp, felling trees to make a log road", that sort of thing. https://www.amazon.com/Three-Years-Day-1862-1865-Annotated-ebook/dp/B00WL64DIG/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1474483791&sr=1-1&keywords=Three+Years+and+a+day

The other is the diary of a Confederate, original a Georgia Militia private but with serious family connections, who when the War started rode up to Virginia to seek employment as an Aide to [then] Brig-Gen Longstreet. Honorary commission as Capt, later proper commission, and rose to Col on Longstreet's Staff in what was then called their Assistant Adjutant General's Department, before being promoted Brig-Gen himself and given a Brigade - and shortly after wounded in battle. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Recollections-Confederate-Officer-Moxley-Sorrel-ebook/dp/B01JF91IFM/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1474484051&sr=1-1&keywords=Recollections+of+a+Confederate+Staff+Officer.

They don't tell 'History' but instead penned sketches which show, as no formal record does, what it's actually like 'out there'. My long reading of the War Between The States, as the South prefers to call it, has been illuminated hugely over the last few weeks [from both sides]. i knew about the BIG things, but absolutely nothing about the daily 'existence' of those involved.

So does this Thread of Threads. The little details expounded by several posters give those of us who were NOT there a much better feeling of what it was like.

Keep going!

Box Brownie
21st Sep 2016, 19:07
Quite so MPN11. John would often say 'we lived like animals' and hopefully the actual conditions in Burma will come out. There is no doubt that, as with so many, Burma scarred him for life.

Danny42C
21st Sep 2016, 19:32
Box Brownie,

A fine start ! Welcome to you (#9320 and #9326), and to Flt Lt John Dunbar DFC (RIP).
...Not knowing that I had come top of the course I stormed into the Group Captain and said what a disgraceful decision it was, that I was the youngest on the course, that I was totally ill-equipped to be a flying instructor, and wanted to go on operations...
How to win friends and influence people ! More likely to be a case of "A young man with a bright future behind him !" - he was lucky to survive.

His reaction was the same as that of our American Army Air Corps instructors after Pearl Harbor: "It'll be all over before we get there !". In the end there was plenty of war for everyone - and a bit too much for some. But I don't remember any of ours going and taking it out on their Colonel - they'd be clapped in irons ! (they took it out on us, instead).

At this stage of the war, almost all our flying training was farmed out to the Empire Air Training Schools in Canada, Southern Rhodesia and other places. Britain had too poor weather, the skies were too crowded, there was a blackout at night, and there was a war going on all around in the air in the meanwhile.

The American offer (of training in selected Schools of their own - the "Arnold Scheme") and in providing six "British Flying Training Schools" in the Southern States, was extraordinarily generous. And surprising, too - both Schemes were started in summer (1941), when the US was (officially) still neutral (and not supppose to provide military assistance to either side). Not that Hitler could do much about it !

Their enormous help (about 7,000 pilots for the RAF from their own resources) must have just about balanced the Bomber Command losses during the war.

Keep it coming, BB - slabs of 1,000 words are about right.

Danny42C (ie in Class 42C of the "Arnold Scheme", still treasures the dollar-silver US Army wings he got - but we were not allowed to wear them on uniform, only our RAF ones. A pity).

MPN11
21st Sep 2016, 20:06
Were they really silver, Danny?

Box Brownie
21st Sep 2016, 20:44
Perhaps John's personality is beginning to come through Danny
General Messervey always called him 'Ginger'!

Danny42C
21st Sep 2016, 20:57
MPN11,

So we were told ! Mine (which, AFAIK, have never beem polished) has dulled over the 73 years to the exact shade of a genuine silver coin of that age, but not tarnished). They are in the form of a brooch, so as to be easily transferred from one uniform to another.

Google no help.

We have a regular contributor here (is it Tankertrashnav ?), who was, at one time a dealer in medals and militaria. If he (whoever he is) is in earshot, perhaps he could help us. Or how about a USAF Pilot ? There must be some tuned-in here. An old retired one (my age or thereabouts) would be best of all.

Seems they are still minted: used one on E-bay at £25 odd IIRC.

Danny.

Chugalug2
21st Sep 2016, 23:10
Box Brownie, a warm welcome from me as well. It is doubly so, for you are telling someone else's story armed only with what was imparted to you. So I only ask the following tentatively with the expectation that you will politely respond that you haven't a clue, and fair enough indeed!

Do you have any details of the path that led him to Theale and of his flying training there? Anything at all about his recruitment, attestation, basic training, and then later of his embarkation to Canada and the completion of Elementary and then to his Advanced Training at Estevan?

As MPN11 and Danny confirm, it is the nitty-gritty that brings the story to life, which is after all about "Gaining an RAF Pilots Brevet in WWII". It seems that you don't have anything recorded along those lines or you would no doubt have started his story at an earlier stage, but perhaps he mentioned in passing some details in conversation? Anything at all will be gratefully received and devoured. We have been spoiled by Danny's amazing feats of memory but can hardly expect such detail from you, so bits and pieces will suffice if possible.

He certainly sounds to be someone who knew his mind, and did so at a very early age. He also must have been incredibly lucky to walk away from a dead-stick night arrival that destroyed the aircraft but left him unscathed. How such an accident didn't rate a Board of Inquiry at which he would have been the primary witness (and suspect?) I have no idea, but perhaps Danny might wish to comment on that.

That he was retained as a Flying Instructor isn't perhaps so surprising given that he had managed to survive the loss of both engines on only his second night solo. So no surprise that he had passed out top of the course and of course no surprise that no-one had thought to tell him! As to the feuding SNCOs and the matter of the cup of tea being of more significance than the loss of one of HM's aircraft, again par for the course?

Thanks again BB, we await your future posts with anticipation. Any padding out will be all the better for it!

Box Brownie
22nd Sep 2016, 08:56
Thank you for the welcome Chug. I have been what I believe is called a 'lurker' here for many years and have put the odd comment of threads in the past. I regularly look look for your comments.
I mentioned the missing tape - that would have the early details of John's career - still looking for it - I am very aware of the gap at the start of his story
John had Above Average and Exceptional ratings in his log book
John would have been over the moon with the reception to his story - a remarkable man and good friend.

Danny42C
22nd Sep 2016, 11:08
Box Brownie (#9336),

Feasts in Store ! (I'm licking my lips in anticipation).
...John had Above Average and Exceptional ratings in his log book...
I had "Average" on all mine - except for two. One was from Alex Hindley, when 20 Sqn was disbanded at Valley in 1951. The best and kindliest of Bosses, he could not perjure himself by writing "Above Average", but put "High Average" (which means nothing) to make me feel good (I suppose). Really "Damning with faint praise" ?

And after my last Refresher at Weston Zoyland in 1954, they entered "As a Meteor Pilot" ..... "Proficient" (whatever that means). Did me no good: three days later, full of hope of getting my full flying category back, I went up to CMB. They ploughed me for keeps ! (ATC now for you, lad - be happy with that).

I would never write "DCO" again. Ah, well.

Danny.

dogle
22nd Sep 2016, 12:12
I was most pleasantly surprised earlier today when my lair was overflown by an aircraft in yellow U.S. livery, almost certainly the venerable Stearman (UK registration). It was a lovely sight, and sound .... perhaps this specimen is known to some within this crewroom?

Box Brownie
22nd Sep 2016, 12:55
Perhaps it is the one we have at Oaksey Park ( near Kemble)

FantomZorbin
22nd Sep 2016, 13:00
... might have been G-OBEE from Old Buckenham (a place that may be remembered by those from the Arnold Scheme)

MPN11
22nd Sep 2016, 15:51
Box Brownie ... you have a PM ;)

Danny42C
22nd Sep 2016, 17:25
MPN11 (your #9329),

Poking about on Google, seems that the often quoted military advice: "Get there fustent with the mostest !", which I attributed to a General "Stonewall" Jackson somewhere here, was really spoken by a General Nathan Forrest of the Confederate Army (just thought I'd mention it !)

From Nov-Dec 1941, I was at Gunter Field (Montgomery, ALA). Montgomery is the State Capital and they call it: "The Cradle of the Confederacy". We quickly learned that the Civil War was far from over; the usual reference to their Northern cousins was: "Those Goddam Yankees". The annual "Blue v Grey" Football game put Celtic/Rangers in the shade for mayhem - and anyone heard humming or whistling "Marching through Georgia" would be lucky to escape with his life !

[From Wiki]:
...and an English town mistakenly thought the tune was appropriate to welcome southern American troops in World War II (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II).....
Oops !

Totting-up Wiki figures, it apperars that the total of Army deaths in the Civil War (estimated as 750K) exceeds the total in all US wars since (633k - my tot from Wiki figures), which shows what an yet unheald wound it has inflicted on the American spiritual psyche..

D.

Box Brownie
22nd Sep 2016, 18:06
Flt Lt John Dunbar ( RIP) Five into four won't go

Taken from two tapes

MPN11 - many thanks for the PM - I shall scan some photos.

Chug - thinking back ten or so years, I recall three stories John told of his training.
Most of the Canadian instructors were gruff ex-bush pilots who flew by the seat of their pants. For the first few months John didn't get on with his instructor though after an exchange in a downtown bar they became firm friends. On the first flight John was climbing away when a voice came from the back " I said eighty, NOT eighty one". I did find a short bit on tape of another incident. "P/O Moon was lacking in confidence so his instructor thought a very mild beat up of the airfield might help. Unfortunately he misjudged the height of the hangar and there was this very sorry looking Anson stuck on the hangar roof. We eventually got ladders and managed to get him down. He was a lovely chap but was not in very good shape, but he did come back to us and said he would prefer another instructor"

John went on to instruct over two years on the Tiger Moth and the Cornell. Flying from32 EFTS at Bowden one day his pupil was blinded by the and snow in a turn and caught a tree with the aircraft's wingtip. In the ensuing crash both wings were torn off, the wreckage being scattered for nearly a mile. They were trapped in the fuselage for nearly an hour before help came.
" As an SFTS flying instructor you would on many occasions fly eight hours of circuits and bumps a day. I recently told an Air Commodore this and he couldn't believe it - there it is in my log book. You would stop for refuelling and lunch and don't forget, sometimes the temperature would be twenty degrees below zero. It was bloody hard work. Instructing on the Tiger Moth the rules of the game were very simple - you had four pupils in the flight that you taught in and the object of the exercise was in the sixty hours you had with them dual and solo you got them to a stage where they would pass the CFI's test. What put the kybosh on instructing for me was an instruction that came out that 90% had to pass out regardless. The directive from the Air Ministry in'42/'43 was such that we could not wash out more than 10% regardless of standard. We were all very unhappy at this. The words cannon fodder spring to mind.
The only way out of Canada was to put up too many blacks and were deemed undesirable in Canada. Perhaps burning the Co's wooden bungalow down at 3 am in the morning was a step too far. Anyway I was shipped back to the UK in disgrace and after a week or so of leave was instructed to report to Adastral House. ( John left Canda with 2,000+ hors and a rating of exceptional as a night flying instructor ) Knocking on an office door I was bid enter and was surprised to see sitting behind a desk an Air Commodore. Oh dear oh dear thought I,not a good idea to burn down the CO's bungalow"

To be continued

Taphappy
22nd Sep 2016, 18:53
harrym.

Thanks for offer, have sent you a PM with my email address.

MPN11
22nd Sep 2016, 18:56
Totting-up Wiki figures, it apperars that the total of Army deaths in the Civil War (estimated as 750K) exceeds the total in all US wars since (633k - my tot from Wiki figures), which shows what an yet unheald wound it has inflicted on the American spiritual psyche..
There's a display board at one of the many Battlefield Visitor Centers which vividly displays those awful statistics.

Of course, most of the battles were found along Napoleonic lines, with large formations advancing across open ground in the face of artillery and rifle fire from [often entrenched] defenders. It's little wonder the troops were mown down in large numbers. A lot like the Somme [I]et al, really, but without the machine guns.

Chugalug2
22nd Sep 2016, 23:13
BB:-
I said eighty, NOT eighty one
That encapsulates the very special quality of this thread. You instantly transport us back to those endlessly demanding strictures of our instructors. For pity's sake what did they want, blood? No, they wanted us to become proficient and hence live, and at least in the membership of this thread they clearly succeeded. We owe them everything. Thank you for reminding us of that simple fact and of their selfless dedication.

You have answered my call in full, Sir, thank you! The snippets you posted are as manna from heaven, for they tell us far more about John Dunbar and of the thousands of others like him who trained in far flung places in order to carry the fight to the enemy than a list of units, stations, and aircraft. Lots more please, and here's hoping that the missing tape reveals itself soon!:ok:

ian16th
23rd Sep 2016, 11:39
Totting-up Wiki figures, it apperars that the total of Army deaths in the Civil War (estimated as 750K) exceeds the total in all US wars since (633k - my tot from Wiki figures),

The main reason that the Civil War had the highest number of American casualties was that Americans were fighting on both sides!

Fareastdriver
23rd Sep 2016, 12:55
As was the 15th Air Force in Italy. At General Kesselring's debrief after the war he was asked about the effect of Allied bombing.

"When the Germans bomb the Allies duck. When the British bomb the Germans duck. When the Americans bomb everybody ducks."

Danny42C
23rd Sep 2016, 16:27
John Dunbar DFC [RIP] (#9343 - speaking with the voice of Box Brownie),
...What put the kybosh on * instructing for me was an instruction that came out that 90% had to pass out regardless. The directive from the Air Ministry in'42/'43 was such that we could not wash out more than 10% regardless of standard. We were all very unhappy at this. The words cannon fodder spring to mind...
This stands in the starkest contrast with my experience with the US Army Air Corps ('41-'42).

... "The Official Website of "The Arnold Scheme (1941-1943) Register™ "
"Unfortunately nearly 50% of British cadets [LACs actually] did not successfully complete pilot training under the scheme, being eliminated ("washed out"), usually without the right of appeal. Between 1941 and 1943, some 7,885 cadets entered the scheme and of the 4493 who survived training, most were returned to the UK as Sergeant Pilots, with many being posted to Bomber Command". However, 577 of the graduates were retained for a period of approximately one year as Instructors...
In plain terms 43% of the RAF intake were rejected ! This caused considerable concern at the time, and has been endlessly discussed ever since. No plausible explanation has ever been forthcoming, and it is ancient history now.

One reason which could have been offered was that the average standard of RAF trainees was markedly lower than that of the American Cadets that the US Flight Schools had been accustomed to. Simply, the RAF was prepared to graduate pilots of a lower standard (and you must admit that John Dunbar's experience adds colour to this).

In which case, the corollary is that the successful graduates of the "Arnold Scheme" (and there have been several (mostly RIP now, but including the writer) on this Thread, should have immediately been noted to be of of a higher calibre. All I can say is: the AFS and OTUs that had to take the training further onto operational level never found (AFAIK) the slightest difference.

And it begs more questions:

What was the loss rate on the six British Flying Training Schools that the US had built for us ? These Schools had, initially, to have 10% of US Cadets in their intake (obviously to compare training methods). How did they get on ?

And over the whole Empire Flying Training Scheme - what was its loss rate on average ?

The statistics for these last two cases seem impossible to trace (or at least, I have never been able to find them - perhaps somebody else can). But there was a general impression that they were far lower than the "Arnold" 43% - a wild guess would be 10-15% overall.

It is impossible to doubt that hundreds (or even thousands) of usable (and badly needed) RAF trainees went to waste in this way. But this should not lead us to resentment at the U.S.A.A.C. (in the person of General "Hap" Arnold) for giving us this wonderful help on the grounds that it turned out to be less wonderful than we expected !

[Note * kibosh - Wiktionary
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kibosh
...kaibosh, kybosh, kyebosh, kiebosh ... From the Irish caidhp bháis, meaning death cap (the hood put on someone before they were hanged to death, or the "Black ....]................

Chugalug (#9346),
...We owe them everything...
How blazingly true ! I ask all of you pilots this: What is/was the name of the Flying Instructor who comes to your mind ? (No, don't pick up the log book, answer off the top of your head !)... Your first, of course, who sent you off solo on that unforgettable day now so long ago.

I recall these verses (they were very widely known in WWII):


A FLYING INSTRUCTORS LAMENT
__________________________

(I first read this well known poem in "Punch" during the war)
Taken from "BBC 'Peoples' War", submitted by “WINGTIP”.

and incorporating additional verses: sourced as follows:

"A HISTORY OF HADDANHAM"
(Bucks - The site was originally "RAF Thame". [Wiki]).

"A copy of the poem on the right was found in George Cliff's logbook. It obviously struck a chord. The author was P/O O.C. Chave whose son tells his story here"
........................


"What did you do in the War Daddy? - How did you help us to win?
Circuits and bumps, and turns, Laddie - And how to get out of a spin".

"Woe and alack, misery me, I trundle around in the sky,
And instead of machine - gunning Nazis, I'm teaching young hopefuls to fly".

"Thus is my service rewarded, - my years of experience paid,
Never a Hun have I followed right down, nor ever gone out on a raid"

"They don't even let us go crazy, - we have to be safe and sedate,
So it's nix on inverted approaches, they stir up the C.F.I.’s hate".

"For it's 'Oh, such a naughty example, and what will the A.O.C think?'
But we never get posted to fighters - We just get a spell on the Link!"

"So it’s circuits and bumps from mornin ‘till noon, and instrument flying! till tea,

Hold her off, give her bank, put your undercart down, you’re skidding, you're slipping - that's me".

"And as soon as you've finished with one course, like a flash, up another one bobs,

And there's four more to show round the cockpit and four more to try out the knobs".

"But sometimes we read in the papers, of the deeds that old pupils have done,
And we're proud to have seen their beginnings, [B]and shown them the way to the sun".

"So if you find the money and turn out the 'planes we'll give all we know to the men,

'Till they cluster the sky with their triumphs, and burn out the beast from his den".

Step forward, Bob Greer - I shall be ever in your debt, for: You showed me the way to the sun. I hope you lived/are living well. D.

Rather long, sorry Mr Moderator.

Danny42C.

Wander00
23rd Sep 2016, 16:40
Thanks Danny, and to the ever patient creamie instructor John Metcalfe who sent me solo in a JP, sadly kicked in Hunter accident a dozen years later. I still go very year to the LAA Rally, in part because Les Hilditch was daft enough one August Saturday in 1961 to send me off on my own in a J1/N Auster, to be told afterwards that my parents had turned up unexpectedly and against strict instruction, and my Mother bless her turned to one of my fellow students and said "Is he going solo, what by himself?" Six months later I turned up at the Towers to run into the same former student, on the same Entry. Oh the embarrassment!

Box Brownie
23rd Sep 2016, 16:55
Wander00 - The chap who taught me to drive, Bill Woodley, had been a flight engineer on Lancasters, a Canadian squadron. I was a student working part time with Securicor.
His legacy from the war were the most horrible headaches. Many times on patrol in the early hours of the morning he would say "Bombers moon tonight and I would ask him how he got his DFC. The same reply each time " Getting up early to get eggs for breakfast" It took a year before he finally explained. Coming back they strayed over the island of Texel and were hit. The pilot was injured and the Lancaster went into a dive. Bill was able to pull the pilot back and they both managed to regain control of the aircraft. He died in his late fifties - much too early.

Box Brownie
23rd Sep 2016, 17:08
Flt Lt John Dunbar DFC ( RIP)

Three photos - 1 John
2 - A formation of Cornells up from Assinibola,Saskatchewan.
John is piloting the next aircraft up from the camera
3- The Cornell crash when John was flying with a pupil from 32EFTS Bowden, Alberta

MPN11
23rd Sep 2016, 18:43
What is/was the name of the Flying Instructor who comes to your mind?The civvy 'instructor'* (Mr. L Jnr) that chopped me at BRNC Flying Grading. :mad: :{ :sad:

His civvy father (Mr. L Snr) ran the outfit, so I had little prospect of escalating matters. Anyway, I wasn't told the result [= fail] until 2 days before the Passing-Out Parade, some 4 months later, having done a blinding job on nearly all of the Exams. :sad:

* The shouty, screaming, bullying one I have mentioned before. Ah, if only I had stayed with my first instructor [3 trips, IIRC], with whom I was extremely comfortable. Perhaps they wanted to see how I would perform under pressure? I didn't.

Three photosYou've cracked it! Good material, and Photo 3 will surely buff out with a bit of work?

Box Brownie
23rd Sep 2016, 19:02
Yes MPN11, thanks to your concise instructions. Not bad considering that at the age of sixty nine I have just got on top of joined up writing!

It would take ages to find the original negatives so the photos were photographed from the Aeroplane article. When we get to 'Five into four won't go' I will scan slides I took and use two more from the magazine article. Taking more from one of the tapes today John's words come back" People wouldn't believe you if you told them"

Fareastdriver
23rd Sep 2016, 19:29
You can get a piece of kit that will turn slides into computer pictures. I have one but it's fairly old so there should be better ones around.

Chugalug2
23rd Sep 2016, 22:42
BB:-
Perhaps burning the Co's wooden bungalow down at 3 am in the morning was a step too far.
I imagine that caused a sharp drawing in of breaths over various keyboards. The past of course is a far off country, they do things differently there. COs held greater sway then than in these PC days. The Powers of a Subordinate Commander were both specific and very wide ranging. The corollary was that unpopular ones who wielded that power poorly could expect payment in kind. The loss of residence by arson nonetheless would be a bit OTT to say the least. Having avoided being the subject of a BoI, our man now seems banged to rights for a CM. Or is he? We must wait and see...

The nearest, but much paler, instance of COcide that I can recall is the matter of the Stn Cdr RAF Christmas Island's Goldfish. As this large parish (approx. 30 miles N to S ISTR) was on a Care and Maintenance basis, the CO was a Wg Cdr, and he had made the most of being sovereign of all that he surveyed. He commandeered the RNO's MFV and had it fitted out with harnesses, seats, and outriggers for deep sea fishing. In contrast he had an ornamental fishpond constructed in front of his quarters and populated it with said goldfish (a generic term only, no idea of their specific type).

At some point he had pushed buttons too far and at high tide a bunch of politically motivated young men threaded a large piece of meat onto a likewise large hook, which in turn was on the end of a long strong rope. With great skill, acquired from imbibing many JCs (the booze was 1d a tot, the mixer a disgraceful 2d!), the bait was cast. The team retired to further enhance their skill levels, and returned at low tide to find a very furious shark at the other end of the rope thrashing about in the shallows. It was promptly clubbed senseless and carried to the CO's ornamental pond in which it was deposited in order to recuperate. All this was at night and in the very early morning, so that the CO was confronted by the unwelcome guest in his pond as he left his accommodation to go to work. Having woken, the shark was even more furious and had promptly taken it out on the other occupants of the pond. The miscreants were however nowhere to be found, these being pre CCTV days. The clear up, like all such clear ups, occurred after the CoC had drilled downwards to a level where it could drill no further.

I am sorry if this story has upset those of a nervous disposition. It is wrong on so many levels, I know, but it is merely as I was told it. I wasn't there you understand, but thousands of miles away. I even have the log book entries to prove it.

The past is a far off country...

Box Brownie
24th Sep 2016, 05:16
Chug - I have a feeling you have set a ball rolling. John was somewhat embarassed telling me the bit about the hut - on the tape his voice is subdued.

Fareastdriver - thanks for chipping in - appreciated. I do have a scanner. Two photos I took are attached scanned from slides using it. They may bring back memories for one or two people

ancientaviator62
24th Sep 2016, 07:26
Chugalug2,
we had a similar instance during my time on 48 with the good old 'K'.
The OC 48 managed to upset the groundcrew somehow so their revenge was to paint the outside of his house one night. The culprits were never found.
Of course in these 'Banksey' days it would have been hailed as a fine example of modern art but the CO was not amused.

Wander00
24th Sep 2016, 07:32
Aah, Aunty Betty's Fun Jet - happy days

Box Brownie
24th Sep 2016, 09:45
Flt Lt John Dunbar DFC (RIP) Five into four won't go

Taken from two tapes

The Air Commodre bade me sit down and came straight to the point. " I understand you have been pushing to go onto the Mosquito. Not a hope. The Empire Training Scheme is now at a stage where we will soon have a surplus of aircrew. By the time you get to a squadron the war will be over. There is a job you can take on that will mean ops. You will have to select a group of thirty pilots to form a squadron about which I can tell you nothing. They must have the following qualifications- be under 25 years of age, have 750 hour as pilots and be ex - EFTS instructors." I accepted the challenge but it was one hell of a job recruiting the thirty bods. I could tell them nothing. One chap, Dave Proctor, came up to me and said he had heard I was recruiting and why hadn't I asked him? What had I got against him However he was twenty nine. and I said no - he was past it. " " I'm begging you. There's only one place they will want us and that is Burma. My brother was lost on the retreat and if I can get out there may be a chance of finding him" I managed to arrange for him to join us. By the end of May 1944 we were on a short commando course and on July 17th began a n intensive short landing programme at No 6 EFTS. On November 23rd 1944 we left Lyneham on board two Liberators for India. Because of the urgency we were routed across Europe via El Adam, Shaiba and Karachi. from there we received a signal to go to Bombay"

To be continued.

Box Brownie
24th Sep 2016, 09:58
Flt Lt John Dunbar DFC (RIP)

Taken from two tapes

At Bombay nobody was expecting us and they knew nothing about us. I spoke to a senior officer and said that I had thirty highly experienced bods getting hot under the collar - they were all volunteers for a particular job and we were told we couldn't waste a minute. Two weeks were lost in the transit camp at Bombay before we were given train tickets Ambala in Northern India, a four day train journey. When we got off the train we saw a sign pointing to Royal Indian Air Force Station Ambali No 1 Indian Air Force Elementary Flying Training School. You would think no one would talk to me! I was sent to Coventry. Not only had I got them back on instructing, but they were to instruct in the Indan Air Force

To be continued

Danny42C
24th Sep 2016, 15:18
After remaining relatively steady for a while, this my "home" Thread (as I always think of it) has suddenly run riot (nights closing in ?, nothing on the telly ?, Olympics over ?), and I suddenly have enough cud to keep me chewing all week.

Just like the old days !...:ok:

Danny.

Danny42C
24th Sep 2016, 15:48
Wander00 (#9350),
...Oh the embarrassment!...
Recalls the time I went away to school at the tender age of 7. To assuage my homesickness, Mother had (privily) put in my school trunk my Teddy Bear (in his little striped flannel pyjamas !)

The practice (fairly universal, I would think) was that all trunks were delivered to a ground floor corridor, the owner would then open and tip the lot into his travel rug (which was part of his kit). Then the corners of the rug were brought together, and the "swag" bundle carried up two flights of stairs to the locker rooms and dormitories and kit stowed away.

So there, in full view of his new schoolfellows, was the small Danny with his even smaller Teddy atop the pile !

The horror of that moment in 1929 has never left me.

(Sorry, Mr Moderator, please indulge an old man once again).

Danny.

MPN11
24th Sep 2016, 18:21
I lacked the courage [and the item] to take my Teddy Bear to Boarding School. And, if I had had a Golliwog, that would have also have been a bad move ... as the school was in Jamaica ;)

Danny42C ... glad you have the distraction of this thread of magnificent memories, and gibberish, and diversions.

I assume you arrived in parts of the Sub-Continent/Burma unexpected as well? ;)

Danny42C
24th Sep 2016, 19:46
MPN11 (#9634),

My arrival in the subcontinent was unexpected in the sense that 36 new Fighter Pilots from UK Spitfire and Hurricane OTUs arrived there under the fond delusion that they were to equip a Spitfire Wing and then gain undying glory by winning the Battle of India which was surely about to come.

The Scales fell from their Eyes when they found that (a) there were no Spitfires in India at the time and (b) the Jap had no aircraft to launch a Battle, and absolutely no intention of starting one if he had, as his Army was doing quite nicely without such a thing - having taken Singapore in about a week, and then kicking us out of Malaya, Burma (they took [neutral] Siam en passant) in short order, and had only stopped to draw breath before tackling the Sunderbans, taking Calcutta and moving up the Gangetic Plain to Delhi. Game, set and match.

There was little to stop them, but for reasons which have never been explained (at least, not to me), they rested on their laurels a bit too long; enough force was scratched together to hold them short of Chittagong (a deep-water port which would greatly simplify their supply chain), the First Battle of Arakan started and Bob's your Uncle.

We would have been unemployed but for the entirely fortituous fact that, coincidentally, a large batch of Vultee Vengeance arrived for no better reason than that (having paid hard cash for them in a panic), nobody else wanted the things. Needs must when the devil drives, we perforce became Dive Bomber pilots. As the RAF never had anything to do with Dive Bombers, did not want to know about them now and wished they would just disappear quietly, there was no help there, we just had to work it out and write the book ourselves.

We didn't do all that badly, one way and another.

Danny.

Box Brownie
24th Sep 2016, 20:10
Danny, you have stolen the next part of John Dunbar's story! ( but I forgive you )

He tells of how, with the L5, he had to work it out and write the book himself.

Best wishes

Box Brownie
25th Sep 2016, 09:57
Flt Lt John Dunbar DFC (RIP) Five into four won't go

Taken from two tapes

Danny, please forgive me for jumping in last night - one of the perils of forums!

Could you give us some recollections of your first days with the Veangance and also your living conditions. I ask this because over the fifteen years or so and the many many conversations with John, he would always come back to the living conditions and regularly said " We lived like animals" It had a cumulative effect on him as we shall see later.

Box Brownie
25th Sep 2016, 10:43
Flt Lt John Dunbar DFC (RIP)
Five into four won't go

Taken from two tapes.

I had two or three horrible days - the guys would not speak to me and I was trying to work through the quagmire of officialdom. Eventually someone twigged that the thirty three L'5s on the airfield matched the thirty pilots. Dave Proctor was receiving medical treatment back in Bombay having somewhat excelled himself. We managed to scrounge help and tools and put the aircraft together ourselves. The were no maintenance manuals and no pilots notes. I took the first one up for about twenty minutes and loved it. Basic training kicked in and I made some performance notes. We wrote the book ourselves. I then took two of the other pilots up and they in turn checked out the rest. As we finished a navigator arrived and announced that he was to lead us on the next step of our journey but could not tell us where we were going. You can imagine my reaction. 100 L5's were delivered to Burma split between 4Corps, 5Corps and 33 Corps. Of the 100 delivered sixty were written off in crashes in the jungle
We set off on a four day journey at 110mph, this massive formation of L5's, with no parachutes and no radios. We eventually arrived at Calcutta and it was here that the navigator told me of our final destination, Imphal. We took off and after a while he asked if we could get over the mountains. I asked what height they were and he said 10,000ft. We somehow did and let down into Imphal which was being strafed by the japs at the time. Not a soul was to be seen except for the od bod peering out of a slit trench. Eventually a Group Captain in charge of Imphal landing ground, wearing a tin helmet sort of crawled up to the aircraft. I shall never forget his words "What the hell are you lot doing here? Get these bloody toys out of here. Don't you know there's a war on?" My answer was NO I explained we were short on fuel and had nowhere else to go.

To be continued .

MPN11
25th Sep 2016, 10:59
Awesome! :D

Chugalug2
25th Sep 2016, 13:16
MPN11:-
Awesome!

Awsome indeed! You wonder how we ever managed to win sometimes! Who on earth was in charge of all this, or was no-one? It makes Danny's Spitfire course in order to fly non-existent Spitfires in India as merely a slight hiccup in the system. It seems there was no system, or at least none that involved ensuring that the big picture at AHQ bore any resemblance to what actually happened on the ground (or in the air!).

Now we have all 30(?) L5's pitching up into the middle of one of the most ferocious land battles ever fought between British and Japanese forces.

Great cliff hanger, BB, hold the front page!

Box Brownie
25th Sep 2016, 14:51
Listening back to one of the tapes Chug, he does mention 33 L5's I can only think that two were spares in case of Cat 5's 4Corps had just broken out of Imphal. On one tape he talks of Dave Proctor claiming to have the only air conditioned L5 in Burma, there were so many holes in bottom of the fuselage - tears in the fabric from branches. The interesting thing is, John had given up on the 'Five into four won't go' appearing in print so never expected any of this to see the light of day. He often said no one would believe you if you told them. He does mention that a photo of the gaggle in flight over India has appeared in Flypast magazine and also that on un-packing the a/c that they been in so much of a hurry that a couple of the a/c had American markings on one side of the fuselage and British markings on the other.

MPN11 Now you know why he was my hero. Speaking of which, the late Len Thorne was a friend. Len was on occasions wing man to Paddy Finnucane, Jonny Johnson and Al Deere though he always stressed that this was after the B of B. Len flew a captured FW190 for 50 hours during the war. He would drool over the fact that it would do six upward rolls before falling off. There is a book called 'So Few' in which Al Deere is featured. I asked Len if he would sign my copy under Al Deere. He signed, put his rank and squadron and then wrote " He was my hero then, and is my hero now" If only I had had the foresight to record Len

Danny42C
25th Sep 2016, 15:21
Box Brownie (#9367),
...Could you give us some recollections of your first days with the Veangance and also your living conditions...
This Thread, P.128, #2560 et seq. Enjoy !
Danny.

Box Brownie
25th Sep 2016, 15:27
Thank you Danny

Danny42C
25th Sep 2016, 16:10
Box Brownie (pp John Dunbar DFC (RIP) #9361),
...At Bombay nobody was expecting us and they knew nothing about us...
Standard form of reception at any new place, familiar to all servicemen. Not to worry !
...I spoke to a senior officer...
Now John is taking shape before us. Haven't we all known "Johns" ? - The Leading Man, the one who is always the spokesman for the others, the Volunteer (in the face of all good advice to the contrary), the one who always "sticks his neck out", the Tall Poppy who gets lopped first...

And the one who "leads with his chin" - viz his bearding of the (Canadian) Group Captain in his lair. How come he wasn't put under arrest on the spot for insubordination ? - it can only be that sheer astonishment had shocked the Station Commander into (temporary) submission.

John, have a care ! You are on thin ice ! Learn to "keep your head down", "Maintain a low profile", "Blend into the scenery" - otherwise it will not go well with you. It will be a case of "This young man will go far !"...."The further, the better !"...."He should start at once !"
...no one would talk to me! I was sent to Coventry. Not only had I got them back on instructing, but they were to instruct in the Indan Air Force...
And quite right, too. Him and his big mouth ! Why does he never learn ? Now look what's happened ! (I fear for John).

And: "Be careful what you wish for - you might get it !"

Danny.

pulse1
25th Sep 2016, 16:14
When I was at school, our physics teacher, Mr Pugh, spent a whole lesson describing his accident flying an L5 out of Imphal. Apparently he was following a telephone line through the jungle and was so intent on his task he didn't notice a cliff in front of him. He crashed into the trees but fortunately was unhurt. Although he was now behind Japanese lines, he did manage to walk home unhindered. Best physics lesson I ever had.

Box Brownie
25th Sep 2016, 16:25
Sound words Danny. I do wonder if, because of his personality and record, he was picked for the job. How many of us have the courage to put our head above the parapet! He didn't suffer fools gladly

Pulse one - your physics teacher would have been one of John's pilots. Do you recall any other bits of that lesson? Hopefully this account will give you an insight into his war.

Danny42C
25th Sep 2016, 18:50
Box Brownie (pp John Dunbar DFC (RIP) #9368),
...I was trying to work through the quagmire of officialdom...British officialdom is bad enough, but Indian far worse by several orders of magnitude !

I have lost grip here, we left him in Ambala instructing on TMs. Now he's got L5s. Dates and moves, please (if poss). Where are we ?
...Eventually someone twigged that the thirty three L'5s on the airfield matched the thirty pilots...
High Authority does sometimes have these Damascene moments - as when AHQ Delhi suddenly realised that they had a bunch of Vengeance doing nothing with next door another bunch of pilots ditto - and Lo - the light struck !
... We managed to scrounge help and tools and put the aircraft together ourselves. There were no maintenance manuals...
Worse case than ours ! At least ours had pukka RAF mechs for the jigsaw, the pilots would never have got one together ("Needs simple home assembly ?")
...no pilots notes. I took the first one up for about twenty minutes and loved it...
After you'd assembled it yourself ? You are a brave man, Sir !
...As we finished a navigator arrived and announced that he was to lead us on the next step of our journey but could not tell us where we were going...
Possible Indian politeness - he didn't know himself, but didn't want to upset you !
...You can imagine my reaction. 100 L5's were delivered to Burma split between 4Corps, 5Corps and 33 Corps. Of the 100 delivered sixty were written off in crashes in the jungle...
Now that's what I call attrition, and no mistake !
...We set off on a four day journey at 110mph, this massive formation of L5's, with no parachutes and no radios...Where from and when was this ?
...We eventually arrived at Calcutta and it was here that the navigator told me of our final destination, Imphal. We took off and after a while he asked if we could get over the mountains...
A bit late to ask, if I may say so !
...I shall never forget his words "What the hell are you lot doing here? Get these bloody toys out of here. Don't you know there's a war on?" My answer was NO I explained we were short on fuel and had nowhere else to go...
When was this ? The Imphal front hotted-up in spring 1944. Before that things were relatively quiet. I have an entry in my log 28.10.43. "landed Palel to refuel". Palel is in the plain of Imphal - if it had not been overrun when John arrived there would have been plenty of room for his L-5s there. Which Imphal airfield did he land at, anyway ?

I know nothing of casevac or any other L-5 activities on the Northern front. Down in the Arakan it had been developed into a routine. Army wounded were stretchered to the small strip behind the battle, the L-5 took them 20-30 mi North to one of our strips, offloaded them there and went back for another lot. The supply-dropping Dakotas carried a PMRAF nurse aboard, on their return empty they would pick up the casualties from us and she would do her best for them as it flew on to a proper Field Hospital maybe 100 miles further North.

It must have been hard for them (and for her) as the Daks were fitted for supply-drop and not casevac, all you could do was put them on the cabin floor. The Loadies were very proud of their brave girls and took good care of them.

Danny.

Box Brownie
25th Sep 2016, 19:21
Danny, post 9360 at the bottom of page 638 should give some answers. If only John were still with us... He would have been thrilled at the response and somewhat embarrassed - we could have gone into the fine detail. The next post should shed some light - please don't get fixated on casualty evacuation! I will try and find out where his son is and see if he has John's log book. That should give us some answers. When we get to Five into four won't go, I have a page of his log book to illustrate the story

Box Brownie
25th Sep 2016, 21:12
Good news Danny, I have spoken to John's son this evening and he has the log books. By the way, there never was any intention of them instructing at Ambali. They jumped to that conclusion on arrival, hence John being sent to Coventry!

Icare9
26th Sep 2016, 16:13
Apologies for barging in to your crew room with this, but I'm hopeful that some old timers here can add something to my quest.

On 21st August 1940, 2 Spitfires from 234 Squadron shot down a Ju88 which crashed and burnt out near Kings Somborne, Hampshire.

A photo shows RAF personnel walking back to their vehicle after viewing the burnt out wreckage in the middle of a mustard field.
The mustard field was mentioned in a contemporary newspaper report, but although the vicar offered to have the men buried in the local churchyard, the remains appear to have been loaded into the back of an Army truck and that is the last record of their identity.

On 22nd August 4 Germans were buried in Grave O74 in Chartham cemetery.
They were then reburied as Unknowns in Cannock Chase in Block 9 Grave 48.

Circumstantially, there appear to be no other group of Luftwaffe unknown casualties for 21/22 August, but obviously to be sure, I need older heads to clarify if Chartham Hospital was used as a "collection point" for Luftwaffe casualties from the BoB?
I can't believe they would have been taken to Churchill as evdience of Fighter Command successes, but why Chartham from Kings Somborne?

60024/67 FF Obergefr Gerhard FREUDE 14.10.18 Koslitz, Luben
60024/4 BO Oberlt Max-Dankwart BIRKENSTOCK 16.12.15 Neustettin, Stettin
60024/64 BF Uffz Rudolf SCHULZE 29.9.19 Liegnitz
60024/79 BS Gefr Franz BECKER 18.1.19 Hurth, Koln

Max-Dankwart Birkenstock was the Bomb aimer, Freude was the pilot, Schulze was the radio operator/upper gunner and Becker was the rear gunner (usually in the under fuselage gondola, facing aft) are reported killed.
Serial number of the plane and individual code (B3+?H) is not known, but if parts of it can be found, there is always chance serial might be found on a component or a part plate. Time and place of crash is given "Kings Somborne 14:15 hrs".

21 August 1940: 1./KG54 Junkers Ju 88 A-1. Shot down by 2 Spitfires (flown by Sqdn Ldr J.S. O’Brien and Pilot Officer R.F.T. "Bob" Doe) of No.234 Squadron, during an armed reconnaissance over southern England. Jettisoned its bombs but crashed in flames and burned out at King’s Somborne at about 2.15 p.m.
Oberleutnant Max-Dankwart Birkenstock,
Obergefreiter Gerhard Freude,
Unteroffizier Rudolf Schulze, and
Gefreiter Franz Becker all missing. Aircraft 100% write-off.

A memorial stone inscribed to 'To 4 Unknown German Airmen Aug 23 1940' was erected alongside a lane on nearby Hoplands Farm."

I have frequently seen and participated in a few, searches for relatives of Bomber Command crews whenever wreckage is uncovered on the Continent and it seems only right to do as much for those once our enemies.

I need to link Kings Somborne to Chartham cemetery (why there?) and on to Cannock.
Proof is what I need, can any here assist?

MPN11
26th Sep 2016, 19:00
Sufficiently complex to deserve a separate Thread, IMO. No disrespect intended.

Danny42C
26th Sep 2016, 20:32
Box Brownie (#9379),
...Good news Danny, I have spoken to John's son this evening and he has the log books...
Now we're in business ! Or (as my old American Instructors used to say): "We're cookin' with gas !"

Standing by. Danny.

Danny42C
26th Sep 2016, 20:40
Icare9,
...Apologies for barging in to your crew room with this...
"Barging in" is what keeps our cybercrewroom alive. The more, the merrier ! Apologies quite unecessary.

Danny.

Icare9
26th Sep 2016, 21:12
Understood MPN11 and have also posted in Aviation History & Nostalgia sub forum, but this thread gets most views of WW2 era aircrew and may come up with the answer.
My point is there are many instances of efforts to identify crew and crashed aircraft of Bomber Command etc and this could be an opportunity to do something in return.

Box Brownie
26th Sep 2016, 21:20
Fl Lt John Dunbar DFC (RIP) Five into four won't go
Taken from two tapes
That was the beginning of it. We were dispersed around the airfield and asked if we had got
our tents etc, to which the answer was no, they were back in Calcutta. Another example of
administrative excellence confronting us. I had to report to a Major Gibson who was G ops 4Corps
and to take twelve pilots with me. It transpired that the squadron was to be split between the three
Corps of the army in India. He outlined the intention of the Corps to go straight through the jungle
to the Irrawaddy in total radio silence. Having just broken out of Imphal, 4Corps had the almost
impossible task of of getting through the jungle to the Irrawaddy river in total silence. The Japanese
did not believe it possible that an army could move through the jungle without their knowledge. All
the communications on the advance to Rangoon were to be by air. We were to drop the order of
battle each morning. There is a story there but I will come back to it later. We were also to be the
means of taking in and out the odd bod from 163 Force who were operating behind the Japanese
lines. Gibson explained that General Messervey was in a meeting but would see me later. When we
did meet I had the most almighty of bollockings. We should have been there two weeks previously
and 4Corps had already broken out of Imphal.
What a leader General Messervey was. I was to be his personal pilot and got to know him very
well indeed. I flew him every other day. He always called me Ginger. Contrast that with a situation I
had after we had been in the jungle for some months. I had done three trips that day, nasty nasty
ones, and was stripped to the waist dragging a flannel over me. Bear in mind that during the last
month of our advance on Rangoon we had just one pint of water a day and one eighth rations. I was
suddenly aware of a presence and there standing in the jungle in the middle of a war was this most
immaculately turned out Grp Ctn. “ Don't you normally stand to attention in the presence of a senior
officer?” I said words that I should not have spoken. Later I went to the signal tent and composed a
signal asking to be replaced immediately. The following morning Messervey sent for me, he
had my signal in his hand. “ What is all this about you wanting to leave us Ginger? Is it that Grp
Ctn D....? Let me tell you, every time he sees me he almost wets himself. You are going nowhere. If
you have any problem with him you come and see me”
We lived like animals, no mess, no batman and we put our own tents up. Food was basic “ How
would sir like his corned beef this evening ?”The temperature was around 120deg. Our trips in the
L5 were usually about one hour duration, no parachutes, we were too low for them to have been of
any use, a pistol and hand grenades we had scrounged. Bear in mind that the strips or clearings were
often behind enemy lines and we were likely to be shot at each time we took off. Each flight was
therefore deemed to be an op. In all I did 288 hours over enemy territory/the jungle. You can count
yourself lucky to survive that. I did 396 trips. We would be in our tents at night listening to the guns
pooping off.
Once beyond the Irrawaddy, I would fly the general to observe actions. At times I would refuse
to fly him over the battlefield, and he would say 'It's all right Ginger' and I would relent. On one
occasion when I was on another op he suddenly wanted to fly and Jimmy Norris took him. Jimmy
returned and said to me ' The general tapped me on the shoulder and wanted to go down and take a
look. Flack suddenly broke around us and I said, awfully sorry, but we are going to have to go
back. They are shooting at us. He said 'Why? They aren't hitting us'

To be continued

Warmtoast
26th Sep 2016, 21:30
Icare9

Re your search for details of the shot down Ju88 have you seen the extensive coverage here?: http://www.astoft2.co.uk/hants/hoplandsmemorial.htm

It doesn't come up with the answer you want, but the list of sources in the bibliography at the end of the article is impressive.


I wish you luck!

Icare9
27th Sep 2016, 10:06
Thanks warmtoast (and notthemainline, who is a new member so his post hasn't appeared yet, but did get his PM)
I need to sqaure the circle.
We have 4 known crew members of the Ju 88 who were removed by Army truck on 21 August.
4 unidentified Germans were buried in Chartham cemetery, Kent with Dates of Death 22 August in Grave O74.
Those 4 were then taken to Cannock Chase in the 60's and reburied as 4 unknowns 22 August 1940 in Block 9 Grave 48.
There are no other unknown German aircrews for 21/22 August so CIRCUMSTANTIALLY they appear to be the 4 from the Ju88 in Hampshire.
But why Chartham?
Was the military hospital there used as a convenient collection point for Luftwaffe casualties, given the BoB was raging overhead?

That's what I'll need to prove beyond doubt that the 4 from the Ju 88 were killed 21st August and then their identities lost and shown as Killed 22 August, the date of burial at Chartham, NOT the Date of Death.

Yes and silly me confused ChartHAM with ChartWELL, so no link to Churchill!

Danny42C
27th Sep 2016, 12:41
Box Brownie (pp John Dunbar DFC (RIP), #9385,
This is perplexing in the absence of place names and dates. To start with, I had a root round Google Wiki to try and get in the picture. So, "from the top":
...That was the beginning of it. We were dispersed around the airfield and asked if we had got our tents etc, to which the answer was no, they were back in Calcutta. Another example of administrative excellence confronting us...
"The administrative tail wags the operational dog" - again. 'Twas ever thus... What airfield ? When ?
...I had to report to a Major Gibson who was G ops 4Corps...Again, Dates ? Place ? Wiki helps on 4 Corps:
...Central Front 1944/45[edit]
Main article: Battle of Meiktila and Mandalay
The Fourteenth Army, now consisting of IV Corps and XXXIII Corps, made the main offensive effort into Burma...
Now we must have broken out of Imphal and got across the Arakan Yomas into the central plain of Burma, where our armour could operate effectively. After my time, I'm afraid (I was carried out hors de combat at the end of February of 1944, at the beginning of the Second Battle of Arakan).
Wiki helps again:
...In July 1943 Messervy was appointed GOC Indian 7th Infantry Division which was sent to the Arakan in Burma to join XV Corps in September. In the Japanese offensive in February 1944, despite having his headquarters overrun and scattered and his supply lines compromised, Messervy's brigades conducted a successful defence whilst being supplied by air...This, of course, was the famous "Battle of the Admin Box", Surrounded by Japanese, Messervy held his position, supplied by the Dakotas of the RAF (and C-47s of the A.A.C.?) (This was where the L-5s were doing the casevacs referred to in my #9377).

Now the tables were turned, it was the encircling Japanese who were starving and cut off from supplies, their advance collapsed, Messervy steadily pushed on South until Akyab was retaken without a fight in the New Year (and without the need for the planned amphibious attack) [details from Wiki].

Arakan was cleared of the Jap, the tunnels through the Yomas (which we'd bombed shut early on) must have been reopened and the "Okeydoke" (Ngakyedauk) Pass freed. Messervy's tanks (15 Dvn - the "Crossed Hockey Sticks") could now trundle through into Central Burma. The victorious end was now in no doubt.

And where was the Vengeance (which had done so much to help the 14th Army up to the Monsoon of 1944 ?) Pulled back out of the line then, kicking its heels and frittered away on odd jobs all over India, when it could have helped so much more in the End Game...:{

Ah well. (there is a lot more meat in #9385 - but let's get the details from that Logbook, BB, please - and we can start putting all this in a timeframe).

Danny.

Danny42C
27th Sep 2016, 14:07
Any of you multi engine multi crew chaps (who saw it) like to comment on the CRM aspect of "Air Crash - Terror at Take-Off (TV Channel 5, 1900 yesterday) ?

Box Brownie
27th Sep 2016, 14:49
John's son Andy should be back to us soon Danny. I'm pleased to say the next instalment does have precise dates and name places.

Attached is a page torn out of a book by John

Fareastdriver
27th Sep 2016, 17:52
Any of you multi engine multi crew chaps (who saw it) like to comment on the CRM aspect of "Air Crash

The 'Captain' of the aircraft that required total obedience from his crew died off in the Western world about thirty years ago. Not because of this particular accident but a combination of accidents and near misses internationally.

My initial time in the V Force was blighted by one of these but fortunately he was replaced by somebody more human who was prepared to admit that I was better at cross wind landings than he was.

In my particular civil world it was being infused into our system in the eighties and I supported it entirely/. Being a lazy sod it easier for the co-pilot, who had just done the course, to sort out any slight problems with the aircraft.

When I arrived in China the culture was completely different. The custom was that 1st Officers were strictly 'yes' men and the flight proceeded as the captain desired. A part of my job was to instil a western oriented attitude for the whole crew. This would sometimes get an incredulous response when you asked what they would do in the present circumstances.

It took time, not always successful. We would hear stories of disasters being avoided by pure luck with an old Chinese captain in charge but they have all retired by now.

The present set up and attitude of the aircrew of my previous operation in China can hold there own with the best in the world. I was part of their training and I am proud of it.

savimosh01
27th Sep 2016, 20:26
Icare9
Also posted to new thread
Ju88 shot down Kings Somborne 21 August 1940

Circumstantially, there appear to be no other group of Luftwaffe unknown casualties for 21/22 August, but obviously to be sure, I need older heads to clarify if Chartham Hospital was used as a "collection point" for Luftwaffe casualties from the BoB?

RE: Chartham Hospital and Luftwaffe casualties from the Battle of Britain - have you seen...
War diary of "Ken Hulbert, RAMC (1) - Battle of Britain by Anne Richards"
BBC - WW2 People's War - Ken Hulbert, RAMC (1) - Battle of Britain (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/64/a4442564.shtml)

Sara

Danny42C
27th Sep 2016, 21:04
Box Brownie (pp John Dunbar DFC [RIP], still on #9385),

While we're waiting for the Logbook details, we can still add suupport to John's story...stripped to the waist dragging a flannel over me. Bear in mind that during the last month of our advance on Rangoon we had just one pint of water a day and one eighth rations...
I recall that when on arrival in Worli (Bombay Transit Camp end 1942) water was very short, in one of my Posts I recall saying that I'd developed a technique for having a bath in a pint mug.

Now I hardly dare to say it, but isn't our John laying it on a bit thick ? One Pint of water a day and 1/8 Ration a day for a month ! Is there no rice in Burma ? Are there not scrawney chickens in the villages ? Do they not lay eggs ? Are there no "K"rations ? What are the Japanese troops living on ? Are they starving to death, too ?
...The temperature was around 120deg...
It might have felt like it. Googled three big towns running down the middle * (ie the hottest) of Burma; Wiki tells me as follows:

Highest Recorded Myitkina.............. Mandalay, ..........Prome (Pyay).
(month) ..........(May)108.5°F... ...(Apr)118.4°F#......(May)102.0°F

Normal High...... (same 91.9°F (Av) 101.1°F (Normal.. (As Above High)

Note #: 1889-present (over a 127 years period - doesn't say which year).
John's 120°F sounds improbable.

Note *: BB, a line joining the first three matches your map #9390.

The highest temperature ever recorded in India occurred on 19 May 2016 in Phalodi, Jodhpur District, Rajasthan at 51.0 °C (123.8 °F). My personal best was on a train in the Sindh # desert, going up to Quetta in July 1944 (126°F). (Quetta; Record High (Aug) 107.6°F Normal High 96.6°F - in Pakistan, and 5,000 ft amsl).

Note #;The British conquered Sindh in 1843. General Charles Napier is said to have reported victory to the Governor General with a one-word telegram, namely; Peccavi – or I have sinned (Latin). In fact, this pun first appeared as a cartoon in Punch magazine.[Wiki]

Another treasured childhood memory shattered !

I was in Assam only in the winter. In Calcutta and the Arakan, the summer (monsoon) was wet and sticky, but not too hot. You can stand dry heat (Quetta) much better than damp heat (Burma).

Danny.

Octane
28th Sep 2016, 01:19
Mosquito's first flight on Monday 26th. Ardmore, NZ. Hope the link works...

4343432432_zpsxbuez827.jpg Photo by gavsgt | Photobucket (http://redirect.viglink.com/?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_147502518988811&key=bbb516d91daee20498798694a42dd559&libId=itm7bm8p010004m6000DAevqb8c1o&loc=http%3A%2F%2Frnzaf.proboards.com%2Fthread%2F22621%2Fagai n-mosquito-avspecs%3Fpage%3D15&v=1&out=http%3A%2F%2Fs56.photobucket.com%2Fuser%2Fgavsgt%2Fmedia %2Fgavsgt029%2F4343432432_zpsxbuez827.jpg.html&ref=http%3A%2F%2Frnzaf.proboards.com%2Fboard%2F1%2Fpreservin g-new-zealand-aviation-history&title=Here%20we%20go%20again%20-%20Mosquito%20at%20Avspecs%20%7C%20Wings%20Over%20New%20Zeal and&txt=%3Cimg%20src%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fi56.photobucket.com%2Falb ums%2Fg173%2Fgavsgt%2Fgavsgt029%2F4343432432_zpsxbuez827.jpg %22%20style%3D%22max-width%3A%20100%25%3B%22%3E)

Cheers
Octane

Fareastdriver
28th Sep 2016, 08:53
Fixed it for you.

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g173/gavsgt/gavsgt029/4343432432_zpsxbuez827.jpg (http://s56.photobucket.com/user/gavsgt/media/gavsgt029/4343432432_zpsxbuez827.jpg.html)

MPN11
28th Sep 2016, 12:07
Lovely picture :ok:

Chugalug2
28th Sep 2016, 20:03
I think that we have to face the fact that any questions occasioned by John Dunbar's story are going to remain unanswered. Doesn't mean they shouldn't be asked, they should. It just means that we have to go with the flow of JD's narrative (as recorded by BB) and try to piece in the missing chunks if we can.

It seems to me, Danny, that it is less a case of Hamlet without the Prince and rather vice versa. He's clearly in charge of some 30 odd pilots and aircraft, but with what rank and what is he commanding, a Squadron (you'd think so at that size), a Flight, a Detachment? He doesn't say and so far we can only guess.

I think that we should remember that the tapes (ie the story so far) are verbal and unrehearsed (guessing that though, I admit). So he's going to be less than precise, no doubt egging the pudding at times. When we get to the book (Five into Four Won't Go) I would expect a rather more reliable account. Certainly we cannot hold Box Brownie responsible for any short comings. He is merely the messenger, armed only with his tapes, the book, and soon we hope the logbooks.

That's good enough for me. I'll go along with the flow of this tale, take note of issues raised by those intimately knowledgeable of the time and place (no names, no pack-drill, eh?), and hopefully learn something new about L5's in Burma (which will be everything in my case).

So thank you, Box Brownie. Chaos reigns, people are to be dispersed left right and centre, conditions will be very challenging, so all Ops Normal therefore! Press on Sir, and again, thank you! :ok:

Box Brownie
28th Sep 2016, 20:44
And armed with fifteen years of friendship Chug. Thank you for your kind comments. To give some background, the tapes were made around 2004
John had been interviewed twice, once by someone who had already gone into print about the L5 in Burma and the second time by a well known chap who failed to mention the 'Five into four wont go' story in his print. We regularly spoke of John's time in Burma and the tapes were done in a very relaxed manner over some time with the intention that only the Five into four story would be told. The anecdotes were repeated and I had heard them many times before, and were repeated at times on all three tapes. Aeroplane changed that. The following year, Aeroplane ran a special VJ-Day 60th anniversary section. The Editor knew of this story and featured it, though obviously in a much reduced version, but including the story - at last! John was somewhat disappointed that the unit did not receive a squadron number

And, at last we get to the 'Five into four won't go' story tomorrow.

Photos. 1. A letter from Lord Mountbatten to John
2 John and two of his pilots

Icare9
28th Sep 2016, 20:50
Just a public and very appreciated "Thanks" to savimosh01
Chartham hospital certainly had a lot of BoB casualties.
Just need to know why on earth Luftwaffe dead from Hampshire would be taken there.

Their identities were known in Hampshire on 21st August; no other unidentified Germans are unaccounted for for 21 or 22 August;
$ Germans were buried in Chartham cemetery Grave O74 on 22nd August, with that being used as Date of Death (not date of burial) but unidentified.
Those 4 in Chartham were reburied in Cannock as "Unknowns" DIED 22 August.

If these 4 aren't one and the same crew, then where else can 4 Germans appear from?
But I need confirmation they are from the Hampshire Ju 88

Box Brownie
28th Sep 2016, 20:53
A photo of five rather lean pilots. Note the name on the engine panel is 'General Ginger' - this was John's L5.
L to R Fg Offs Robby Robinson, Jimmy Norris Woodhouse DFC (sitting on the wing) Flt Lt John Dunbar DFC Fg Off Dave Proctor

Danny42C
28th Sep 2016, 20:55
Chugalug,

I consider myself well and justly chastened, Sir ! You are, of course, absolutely right and I should not have jumped in so soon, and so critical of the details, to get the time and place frame for the story.

I shall now be patient, and apologise to BB for harrying him for "furher and better particulars". Let's hear the whole story, and wait for the log book, then we'll sort it out at leisure.

I too, wondered about John, he now seems to be a man of considerable authority (although being a personal pilot to a Lieut-General carrys cosiderable 'clout' - he's an ADC in all but name).

In sackcloth and ashes, a penitent

Danny.

Box Brownie
28th Sep 2016, 21:35
Bless you Danny, no need at all for an apology. Do keep the questions coming please. You can fill in so much of what is was like.

Saying bless you reminds me of Churchill's navigator - he would ring up and at the end of every call say " Bless you my son, bless you"

Chugalug2
28th Sep 2016, 23:12
Thanks, BB, for dotting some i's for us. So it was a squadron, but unnamed or numbered, and commanded by a Flt Lt, and about to be split into three (flights?) attached to three Army Corps. Curiouser and curiouser indeed! Admittedly this operation seems to be more in keeping with the AAC, which perhaps was more the model they were following. In which case these pilots perhaps shared some of the cultural experiences of those transferred to the Glider Pilot Regiment, but at least they were flying!

Presumably he now had some ground crew to keep these admittedly basic aircraft serviceable and airworthy. Hopefully we will learn more of that soon.

Let us now bid them Bon Voyage as they set out into a very uncertain future...

Oh, added PS to assure Danny that no-one is being chastened, least of all him! I was simply acknowledging the limitations that BB is operating under in relating JD's story for him. Your inputs are as vital and informative as always, Danny. Please keep crossing the t's and if BB dots the i's we shall all end up the wiser!

MPN11
29th Sep 2016, 08:17
Box Brownie ... your photo at #9400. You can almost feel the climate, looking at those 5 guys!

ian16th
29th Sep 2016, 09:02
BB

I've 'restored' this one.

http://i818.photobucket.com/albums/zz108/ian16th/Burma.jpg

Fareastdriver
29th Sep 2016, 09:42
For those wondering what the log book figures at the bottom of Mountbatten's letter.

SINGLE ENGINED DAY (1) Dual (Missing) (2) Pilot. // NIGHT(3) Dual (4) Night Pilot

MULTI ENGINED DAY (5) Dual (6) 1st Pilot (7) 2nd Pilot. // NIGHT (8) Dual (9) 1st Pilot (10) 2nd Pilot.

(11) Passenger // INSTRUMENT FLYING (12) Simulated (13) Actual.

Box Brownie
29th Sep 2016, 09:45
Thank you Ian - the wonders of photoshop! The photo of the five pilots was copied from the magazine article so I wouldn't waste time on that one. It has got to be among my slides somewhere, or John's son might have the original

MPN11 - Note Dave Proctor's hat and the peak of John's

Chugalug2
29th Sep 2016, 10:08
Danny:-
I too, wondered about John, he now seems to be a man of considerable authority
Perhaps this is the crux of the issue. I wonder just how much authority he did have. Was he formally "in command"? All this started in an Air Commodore's office in Adastral House. John has just been expelled from Canada in disgrace (having burned down his Stn Cdr's bungalow!) but he is at the top of his professional cadre. He gets the job of recruiting 30 pilots, getting them out to India, and getting the L5's out there assembled and up to Imphal. No promotion, no formal unit designation, just do it! Sounds to me like one of those Hollywood movies whereby condemned men are given the chance of reprieve and wiping the slate clean if they go on some suicidal mission to capture/kill a senior Nazi General or whatever...

One wonders if the whole unit consisted of such square pegs. The RAF wasn't going to be too bothered how they got on out there, it was an operation not only for the Army but embedded with it. Danny has already shown us that India was a far off land of which the Air Ministry knew little and perhaps cared even less (if that doesn't get a bite, what will? ;-) but at least he was flying in formal RAF units. So was this a punishment tour in which they would either sink or swim? Just speculating of course...

Box Brownie
29th Sep 2016, 10:51
Another Warburton ?

FantomZorbin
29th Sep 2016, 11:33
I had a SD hat like that ... till the CO banned it from his station http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/worry.gif

MPN11
29th Sep 2016, 11:40
Likewise, FZ ... although my "Get rid of it" was passed on from a 4* :)
It was the hat I wore on my Graduation, and lasted for 2 tours before being re-assigned as my Bisley shooting hat. It served a further ~25 years in that role [intermittently in the latter stages] before being given one last outing on my last day in uniform :)

Box Brownie
29th Sep 2016, 12:51
I was in the VR(T) and recall at the first parade on my initial course the Flt Sgt stood in front of me and for a moment just looked. "And where have you parked your Spitfire Sir?" It's shape had improved by the morning.

Fareastdriver
29th Sep 2016, 13:27
Bates was the make of SD hat that everybody wanted in the sixties. They had the full crown that could be pulled down either side and with a bit of encouragement, a wet towel, could stay that shape. Mine ended up in the Borneo jungle after 1,000hrs jammed beside the gearbox of a Whirlwind.

Around the end of that decade apparently Bates got the nod from Airbox that they should only supply an orthodox version. They seemed to go out of fashion after that.

Chugalug2
29th Sep 2016, 14:33
A friend of mine had a hat like that, and wore it on the AOC's Inspection. "Haven't you got another hat?", the great man asked him. "Yes, Sir, but I keep that for special occasions". He got his name taken.

Danny42C
29th Sep 2016, 15:21
Chugalug - and all our Merry Men (and, maybe, Gals ?), Greetings.

Thanks for the absolution, Chugalug; there are now so many hares running that I don't know where to start, so I won't just yet.

And after years of shameful neglect, I've "bitten the bullet", and sent my old u/s "Starwriter" back for major overhaul. After paying considerably more for repair than the thing cost me in the first place, it is back with me now and rarin' to go. You may recall that I had a whole lot of stuff on floppy disk about my time on the VV, so after I've done a self-refresher on operating it (how quickly we forget), I'll see if I can add anything useful here.

The maddening thing is that, although it's on a MS-DOS system, there's no USB point (were there such things in the late '60s ?) So the only way for me is to print-out from it, scan, and learn how to paste here (don't hold your breath).

To cap all, I'm having a Bad Eye Day (nothing serious, I have Good and Bad Days), so typing is slow and difficult. But I cannot sign off without reference to the marvellous pic (#9405 from ian16th). How that takes me back ! It's iust how we all were ! The Cap SD in the middle looks exactly like ours did, after being crammed into odd corners of cockpits, and repeatedly dunked in 100 octane to clean (this gave them a pleasingly greenish patina). It was only later that we adopted the Aussie "Bush" Hat.

Note the impeccable khaki woolen stockings. What did they have on their feet ? We would bave chaplis ("Jesus" sandals) or desert boots ("brothel-creepers"). Never black shoes (parade wear only). Mostly went mouldy at the bottom of your kitbag.

Danny.

Box Brownie
29th Sep 2016, 15:23
Flt Lt John Dunbar DFC (RIP) Five into four won't go

Taken from two tapes

That has perhaps given you some idea of the set up. We can come back to the rest of my time in the jungle later, particularly the bayonet charge. I would like to get the story of the rescue of Nottage and the rest out there in print, not for myself but for the other pilots. They did an incredible job in dangerous situations and received virtually no recognition. A wonderful bunch of guys. When you look back on it one of the comments made in 'Wings of the phoenix', which was the RAF document, they have a picture of an L5 in it and as they say it was one of the bravest jobs of the war, because in an emergency you knew you couldn't save yourself – you had no parachute, you might just as well fly at nought feet anyway. Look at Dave Proctor who claimed to have the only air conditioned L5 in Burma because of the tears in the fabric at the bottom of his fuselage, caused by hitting branches.
By the way, he claimed to be the only British officer that was shorter than the Japanese.

Anyway, back to the rescue – this was on the 19th May 1945. I was sent for by Major Gibson
who explained that four 'bodies' were to be picked up urgently from a clearing some fifty miles behind the Japanese lines. It turned out to be a Beaufighter crew, the pilot of a Lysander and his passenger, an army major. , across the Sittang River where heavy fighting was taking place. The usual briefing took place at which the signals, comprising strips of white parachute were laid out, which were the letter X if unsafe to land, and the letter U if safe, were made known to us. I had chosen Fg Offs Dave Proctor, Jimmy Norris and Robbie Robbinson.

We flew as low as possible to the Napyawdaw area where we climbed to 2,000ft in order to spot the clearing. We were dead on track but to my consternation, the signal was a letter L. I motioned to the others to orbit while I dived down flat out across the clearing. Immediately troops emerged from the jungle and opened fire 120 miles an hour isn't very fast when you are being fired at! We can only guess that the signal was the result of bravery by a member of 163Force. We will never know. We returned to Pagu and the following day I made a solo visit, making one pass across the clearing at tree top height. There was no signal. Much to our amusement, 136 Force sent a letter apologising and saying they had been 'victim of the ungodly'.

On May 25th we were asked if we would make another attempt to rescue the four 'bodies.' It was unthinkable that they could be left to the Japanese. The following day, with an escort of 12 Spitfires, we returned. We had objected to the presence of the Spitfires, knowing that with our speed of 120mph they would alert the enemy of our presence. Luckily they turned for home some fifteen miles before the clearing was reached.

A letter U was clearly displayed, and all four of us landed safely with no room to spare. To my consternation five men emerged from the trees. A tall man, wearing a full length Burmese skirt and naked to the waste came forward. He had a huge black beard to his navel and that part of his body that was visible was a mass of jungle sores – an emaciated figure , never the less, still imposing. He demanded to know where the fifth aircraft was . It was clear we had a major problem .Each aircraft could take only one passenger, the take off run was short and there was zero wind. One person had to be left behind.

The group consisted of Wg Cdr George Nottage, CO of 177 Sqdn who had forced landed in a paddy field and his navigator, Plt Off Norman Bolitho; Sqdn Ldr Turner who had flown a Lysander with Major King of 136 Force as passenger to pick up Nottage and Bothilo, but had crash landed; and Ali Mohammed, an Indian soldier who had escaped from the Japanese.

They had a con flab and came back and said 'Ok, we'll have to leave the Indian soldier'. We loaded the four of them into the four aircraft, Nottage in mine. I was just about to start up and I noticed the Indian standing beside the plane and just looking at me with this look of despair on his face and it was obvious what he was thinking – to be left to the Japanese after all this.

BB After the war George Nottage and Norman Bolitho wrote up their account of the forced landing. Bolitho refers to the pick up 'The Lysander pilot and I got separated from the others after an encounter and when we thought we spotted them we whistled 'Col Bogey' and were reunited without any 'friendly fire' Several days were spent at the strip waiting for possible pick up by L5 light planes. At first the local Korans sat and waited with us but eventually they gave up. Finally on 26th May at about 11:00 four L5s arrived landed safely, the pilots stopped their engines and calmly lit cigarettes while the special forces people gave them their grocery 'lists'.

To be continued

Box Brownie
29th Sep 2016, 15:31
A painting by the late Ken Aitken GAvA

Danny42C
29th Sep 2016, 19:40
Box Brownie (#9416),

Although I'm under a sort of "self-denying ordinance" as regards Posts on this matter, until "all is safely gathered in" I could not help putting my oar in on this:
...I noticed the Indian standing beside the plane and just looking at me with this look of despair on his face and it was obvious what he was thinking – to be left to the Japanese after all this...What would you do ? Kipling has the answer:

"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains
And the women come out to cut up what remains
Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
And go to your God like a soldier"


Danny.

jetslut
29th Sep 2016, 20:03
Gentlemen,
please forgive my egoistic intrusion on this wonderful thread but I'm trying to source data regarding a close family member, perhaps some of the chaps knew him.
Ivor Terrence Chambers DFC Bar, formerly on 104, 142 and 158 sqns, survived the war, took a full commission and left the service January 11 1964 (Hullavington I believe).
If anyone has recollection of Ivor I would be greatly indebted if you would share them with me.

Once more, my apologies for hijacking the thread.

L.C.

Ricktye
29th Sep 2016, 20:28
Box Brownie (#9416),

Although I'm under a sort of "self-denying ordinance" as regards Posts on this matter, until "all is safely gathered in" I could not help putting my oar in on this:
What would you do ? Kipling has the answer:

"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains
And the women come out to cut up what remains
Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
And go to your God like a soldier"


Danny.
Danny, while that might be the solution, I wonder how many in such a situation would have the fortitude to do it? The will to live can at times, be quite strong!

FantomZorbin
30th Sep 2016, 08:06
I passed my forage cap on to my son. His CO espied it from afar, "Where on earth did you get that hat?" (in a less than friendly tone), "it was my father's Sir" said FZjnr, "oh, that's all right then" and the matter was dropped, never to be raised again.
I'm told that the hat finally expired in the sand-pit.

Fareastdriver
30th Sep 2016, 09:28
Whilst I was at Labuan, Borneo during Confrontation in 1966 FEAF Air Commander came out to visit the station. We all stood to attention as he came into the crew room and he removed his hat.

Off came the crown, the peak with the scrambled egg but still wrapped around his head was the leather internal headband.

The heat and the sweat had finally rotted way the stitching.

FantomZorbin
30th Sep 2016, 11:49
Magic ... :D:D:D

MPN11
30th Sep 2016, 13:02
As a technical aside, my 9-yo iMac died last night, probably as a punishment for looking at EasyJet fares (I'm BA Gold :) ). This morning I purchased a new 27" iMac, but I can't get it to restore all my files from the back-up Time Machine. I am whimpering helplessly at my local Apple Store, in the hope they can recover a mass of data, including domestic and company accounts, from either the Time Machine or the old iMac.

I have sympathy with Danny42C, as I struggle to see what I'm doing on my iPad :)j

Danny42C
30th Sep 2016, 14:42
jetslut,
...Once more, my apologies for hijacking the thread...Now now, jetslut, you know better than that. This Thread is intended to be "Hijacked" - as you put it - it is its lifeblood.

No apology needed. Hope you get a line on your Ivor.

Danny42C.

Danny42C
30th Sep 2016, 14:54
Ricktye (#9420),

But when you knew, with absolute certainty, that the Japs would, when they found you, string you up alive and use you for bayonet practice........?

Moot point.

Danny.

Brian 48nav
30th Sep 2016, 15:56
You may have done this already, but if not, put each squadron number on your search engine and see what comes up.

There certainly seems to be a 158 Sqn Association. Good luck.

Chugalug2
3rd Oct 2016, 08:32
BB:-
They had a con flab and came back and said 'Ok, we'll have to leave the Indian soldier'.
I wonder if the Indian soldier had been a part of the con flab? Being completely outranked it would probably have made little difference of course. Interestingly if they had all been indulgence passengers with Transport Command and one seat short, it would have been the Wing Commander who was left behind. The thinking was that the highest rank (or dependent thereof) would have the greater resources to pay the costs of delay and/or alternative means of transportation. That doesn't apply in this situation of course, but the con flab decision does leave an unpleasant taste in the mouth. Over to JD to resolve...

mikehallam
3rd Oct 2016, 08:50
BTW.

Saw this in my free 'AVWEBFLASH' e-mailed news sheet this morning.

"One of the world's last surviving Battle of Britain vets, John Hart, of Naramata, British Columbia, Canada, went flying to celebrate his 100th birthday. Dave Watson, of Yellow Thunder Formation Aerobatics, took him up in his Harvard, the Canadian version of the T-6"

Now the video with it shows John looking quite sprightly, pity neither he nor perhaps a friend is on this forum.

mike hallam

Box Brownie
3rd Oct 2016, 10:51
Flt Lt John Dunbar DFC (RIP) Five into four won't go

Taken from two tapes

We were trained not to leave anybody to the japs. There was nothing brave or clever about it. I was just about to start the engine when I saw the look on his face. . I just got out of the plane and said “ Stay there and I'll try to get back for you – give me two hours – go and hide in the jungle and make sure you are near.”

We took off, all of us, we only just made it, the clearing was so tight. My aircraft was the ever reliable KJ 400. Another twenty yards or less and I don't think any of us would have made it. We were helped that by the fact that our passengers all weighed a hundred pounds or less, emaciated bodies and not much else.

The flight back was fairly uneventful, and talking to the other chaps afterwards, quiet. This was the reverse of when we took the odd bod behind the lines. Going out they would be quiet but coming back they were full of question about how things were going with the war. When we landed those chaps they were quiet and just hopped out of the plane and disappeared.

I can't even remember if I got out of the plane when we got back, but just said 'fill her up' and went back as fast as I could and landed after completing a circle of the strip. I did have an idea I was running out of time. I wasn't sure I would be able to land . The circle before landing was very low and at very high speed. I could see the Indian soldier rushing out of the trees and waving. I landed, he flew open the back seat ( BB the L5 had two side by side seats and what might be termed a jump seat behind for a small person – the back of the seat folded down )

It is very interesting talking about it now. Nottage and the others were more thrilled by my getting the Indian soldier out than coming out themselves. Everyone knew what fate awaited him.

It was witnessed after we left, that the japs were so furious that they had lost these bods . They knew what was going on, they had been alerted by the first time and don't forget, it takes time to go through the jungle. 136 Force told the story afterwards about how the japs came onto the strip just literally minutes after we left, and in their rage they went and got hold the local elder of the native village and beheaded him in the middle of the strip as a example.



To be continued.

Reader123
3rd Oct 2016, 11:26
My father having served in Burma in the RAF during the war, I have found the descriptions of day-to-day life by Danny fascinating. (I've mentioned this before about n thousand posts ago...) BB's posts too are illuminating.

As mentioned previously, my father was an engineer officer, "on gliders" - about all I knew. I found, however, the other month, his RAF "CV". November and December 1944 were spent "Proceeding to India Command", and come January 1945 he was "FO O/C No 30 Glider Servicing Echelon." (Where he remained until October 1945.)

But what gliders can he have been servicing? Who was using gliders in Burma in 1945? The Chindits used some gliders, both to get in and to evacuate casualties, but otherwise I haven't found much evidence of glider use in the Far East. If you've never heard of glider snatching, have a watch of this video:

Dgu5yh0HkgY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dgu5yh0HkgY

But the Chindits weren't doing anything in 1945. It was unpleasant enough that he never really mentioned anything other than a few funny stories, so he must have been doing something. Gliders sitting there don't take much servicing, surely. And they're not the sort of thing you practise with; casualty rates would be too high. And there was a war on too; inefficient as the forces could be with manpower they wouldn't have had dozens of men sitting around doing nothing for *that* long, would they?

I've just acquired a copy of RS Sansome's "The Bamboo Workshop, The History of the RAF Repair and Salvage Units India/Burma 1941-46." Which is useful for local colour, but I'm not expecting to find the "glider" word in there. Truly the forgotten corner of the forgotten war!

harrym
3rd Oct 2016, 14:38
Thank you Reader 123 for that glider pick-up clip, it brought back many memories of my training at Ibsley in this esoteric art (previously described somewhere way back in this thread).

As for gliders in Burma there certainly were rumours of their possible use for the forthcoming invasion of Malaya, but where they were kept remains a total mystery - to me, anyway. Had this invasion actually taken place most of the airborne effort would surely have been mounted from Mingaladon, but never once during my time there from late August '45 until several months after the war's end were any gliders seen to be seen - so where were they, or was it all just rumour?

harrym

Danny42C
3rd Oct 2016, 16:51
mike hallam (#9429),

Let's hear it for the old fella ! Life in old dogs yet ! Wondered if he might have trained on the Harvard himself (our version of the North American AT-6A, on which I trained: the principal difference being that the AT-6A was armed (one forward-firing Browning 0.300. in top RH corner of front panel), but the Harvard was not (at least, none of those I flew later).

But as he would've trained before the Empire Air Training Scheme got under way, it couldn't have been a Harvard (then) but will have flown one afterwards. Did they let him "have a go" ? (I do hope so). How did he get on ?
...Now the video with it shows John looking quite sprightly, pity neither he nor perhaps a friend is on this forum...
Video (any hope of a link ?) And Canada is full of our members - extract digit and do something about it, chaps !

(Young [pushin'95] Danny)

Danny42C
3rd Oct 2016, 17:23
BB,

So John went back and got the man out after all! Damned brave ! is all I can say. The hornets' nest had already been aroused, the odds were that he was going back to almost certain destruction - and yet he couldn't leave the Indian soldier to his fate.

I hope that John's C.O. told him he was a bloody fool - and then put him up for a DFC..! Such stories are remembered long in India. Suddenly brings to mind a similar tale in which a Dak snatched out some wounded Gurkhas just ahead of an advancing Jap column. Was there a film made "Three miles East of Kalewa" - or have I dreamt it all ?

Must Google. Pity about the headman ("Bo" ?)

Danny.

Danny42C
3rd Oct 2016, 17:42
Reader 123,

Know nowt about glider operation. But:
...I've just acquired a copy of RS Sansome's "The Bamboo Workshop, The History of the RAF Repair and Salvage Units India/Burma 1941-46."...
There was a RSU (No. unknown) a mile or so SW of Manbur (Arakan). On the morning of 24.2.44. a certain Danny dumped a load of Vengeance scrap on their doorstep - at least the last bit (with Danny and crewman in it) reached the doorstep, the rest of it was strewn out in bits over a half- mile of jungle from the North.

Any mention ?

Danny.

mikehallam
3rd Oct 2016, 18:32
Please try this U-tube link for the 100 year old pilot mentioned above.
mike hallam.

FS401_BXMtk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS401_BXMtk

Chugalug2
3rd Oct 2016, 19:46
Danny:-
So John went back and got the man out after all! Damned brave !
Indeed, my thoughts exactly, Danny.

BB:-
Nottage and the others were more thrilled by my getting the Indian soldier out than coming out themselves. Everyone knew what fate awaited him.

Thrilled and hugely relieved I should think! They would have been somewhat guilt ridden I imagine if it had not gone well, particularly if JD had not made it back either. No doubt the correct decision had been made, and JD was tasked to bring out the four only, after all. It would have been rather difficult to explain the loss of a Wg Cdr Squadron Commander if he had applied my "Highest rank stays behind" policy! A tricky situation sorted out by a very courageous action. As you say, Danny, worthy of official recognition.

Hope all things technical and sight-wise now operating A OK, Danny. Good to see you in full flow again. :ok:

Danny42C
3rd Oct 2016, 20:28
mikehallam,

Lovely ! Thanks for the link, what a well preserved old boy - and what a story !I hope that everybody who saw it stayed with the following youtube item, too: "The Last Aircraft to be built at Filton" - a rebuild of a Spitfire IX. Magic !

Never flew the Mk. IX - reckoned to be the best of the Merlin Spits - but had a few hundred hours on the Mk. XVI - the exact same thing, but with the General Motors "Packard Merlin" replacing the Rolls-Royce. Couldn't tell the difference.

At Valley, 20 Sqdn, 1950-51. Happy days !

Danny.

Danny42C
3rd Oct 2016, 20:41
Chugalug,

Deeply touched by your concern for me. Yes, sight (so long as I select suitable specs from choice of three) back to normal. Otherwise, firing on all cylinders (pro tem).

Danny.:ok:

ricardian
3rd Oct 2016, 22:29
My father having served in Burma in the RAF during the war, I have found the descriptions of day-to-day life by Danny fascinating. (I've mentioned this before about n thousand posts ago...) BB's posts too are illuminating.

As mentioned previously, my father was an engineer officer, "on gliders" - about all I knew. I found, however, the other month, his RAF "CV". November and December 1944 were spent "Proceeding to India Command", and come January 1945 he was "FO O/C No 30 Glider Servicing Echelon." (Where he remained until October 1945.)

But what gliders can he have been servicing? Who was using gliders in Burma in 1945? The Chindits used some gliders, both to get in and to evacuate casualties, but otherwise I haven't found much evidence of glider use in the Far East. If you've never heard of glider snatching, have a watch of this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dgu5yh0HkgY

But the Chindits weren't doing anything in 1945. It was unpleasant enough that he never really mentioned anything other than a few funny stories, so he must have been doing something. Gliders sitting there don't take much servicing, surely. And they're not the sort of thing you practise with; casualty rates would be too high. And there was a war on too; inefficient as the forces could be with manpower they wouldn't have had dozens of men sitting around doing nothing for *that* long, would they?

I've just acquired a copy of RS Sansome's "The Bamboo Workshop, The History of the RAF Repair and Salvage Units India/Burma 1941-46." Which is useful for local colour, but I'm not expecting to find the "glider" word in there. Truly the forgotten corner of the forgotten war!
No specific mention of gliders but who knows - perhaps they were part of this enormous armada (http://www.warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=52966) that was to be used if the 2 atomic bombs failed. (I posted a link to this about 18 months ago)

Union Jack
3rd Oct 2016, 23:05
It would have been rather difficult to explain the loss of a Wg Cdr Squadron Commander if he had applied my "Highest rank stays behind" policy! - Danny

What an incredible tale, with a suitably happy ending for nearly all concerned.:ok: Sorry about the headman.

Interestingly enough, and although not strictly comparable, the Submarine Service policy was always virtually the same as Danny's in sunken submarine scenarios- survivors exit the submarine in reverse seniority order.....:uhoh:

Jack

Fareastdriver
4th Oct 2016, 08:33
Mk. XVI - the exact same thing, but with the General Motors "Packard Merlin" replacing the Rolls-Royce.

Naughty, naughty, Danny. Nothing to do with General motors. From Wiki:

In 1942, the Packard Motor Car Company converted to 100% war production.[31] During World War II, Packard again built airplane engines, licensing the Merlin engine from Rolls-Royce as the V-1650,

Danny42C
4th Oct 2016, 12:04
Fareastdriver,

Caught me "bang to rights" again. Of course you're right.

Always thought Packard to be an upmarket division of General Motors Inc, not quite a Cadillac, but a long way up from the humble Chevvie.

How many long-held and cherished notions has Google/Wiki destroyed ! Ah, well.

Scrap of jingle from long ago:



♫..."Oh, you cain't git to Heaven in a Ford V-8 -
'Cos the Devil he drives - a Chev-ro-let"...♫


Danny.

andytug
4th Oct 2016, 14:24
By a strange coincidence I was looking at a Packard Merlin last week, part of a small exhibition about a P51 lost locally on a delivery flight, engine and some other bits recovered a few years ago. Well worth a look if you're near Southport (Atkinson arts complex on Lord St).
http://imgur.com/a/OBvDh (http://m.imgur.com/a/OBvDh)

Box Brownie
4th Oct 2016, 15:14
Flt Lt John Dunbar DFC (RIP) Five into four won't go

L George Nottage (CO 177 Sqdn ) R. Norman Bolitho

Photo taken about a week after the rescue

Wander00
4th Oct 2016, 15:29
Is that Nottage related to the cadet at the Towers about 65-66 time?

Box Brownie
4th Oct 2016, 15:35
An interesting question Wander00. George Nottage remained in the RAF after the war. If he had a son the time frame would fit.

Danny42C
4th Oct 2016, 15:42
andytug,

Thanks for the link (sad story, why would he try to get back to Kilbride when there was Woodvale, Speke, Hooton Park and Hawarden in easy reach ?)

They can't have been all fogged-out, could they ?

Danny.

PS: Have a stroll down Lord Street on a bright morning for me - for I shall never see it again. Southport was my second home as a boy, my maternal grandfather lived there, I knew it (then) so well, and my parents lie in the Eastbourne Road [seems to be called "Cemetery Road" now] Cemetery.

andytug
4th Oct 2016, 16:06
andytug,

Thanks for the link (sad story, why would he try to get back to Kilbride when there was Woodvale, Speke, Hooton Park and Hawarden in easy reach ?)

They can't have been all fogged-out, could they ?

Danny.

PS: Have a stroll down Lord Street on a bright morning for me - for I shall never see it again. Southport was my second home as a boy, my maternal grandfather lived there, I knew it (then) so well, and my parents lie in the Eastbourne Road [seems to be called "Cemetery Road" now] Cemetery.

Impossible to say I think, as you say very sad. Got right up to the Merlin and the smell was as if it had just been taken off the aircraft, hot oil etc.
Was walking Lord St at lunchtime today, work just round the corner so do it often. Shadow of itself a bit now, high rates, empty shops and expensive parking / over zealous parking wardens are slowly taking the character out of the place, it's a shame.

Wander00
4th Oct 2016, 16:30
BB - that is what raised the question in my mind

Danny42C
5th Oct 2016, 11:08
andytug (#9949),

So Lord Street has gone downmarket like all the rest ! I prefer to remember it in its heyday (interwar years). What elegance ! What style ! Did not Napoleon III model the Paris boulevards on it - or was it the other way round ? (ought to Google it - but prefer the legend).

A small boy remembers the wide pavements, the verandahs, the posh shops and all the women in their cloche hats and expensive furs......another world which will never return.

Now the Packard Merlin - any Merlin - note the "V-1650" (cu.in. swept volume). From that it put out 1,600 hp. My Wright Double Cyclone did the same - but from 2,600 Cu.in. (a 60% bigger engine !) "Horses for Courses", I suppose.

The Merlin powered both Hurricane and Spitfire in 1940. It was the engine which saved Britain then.

Danny.

PS: My "Starwriter" is back - fettled ! Now to (a) relearn how to use it (DG, have kept Manual) and (b) dig into pile of Floppy Discs (remember them ?) in which is a lot of material on my time in the VV. Most of it will be on Post here already, but you never know. D.

MPN11
5th Oct 2016, 14:26
My breath is bated, Danny. :)


PS: I'm sure we used to have to tinker with a Merlin at BRNC as part of our 'Engine Test', in a shed down by the Dart below the College. Probably nothing very technical.

andytug
5th Oct 2016, 16:31
Danny, Wikipedia agrees with you re Paris being inspired by Southport. (Napoleon II I stayed there before he became Emperor and allegedly copied the layout).

I have a few historical pics of Southport cribbed from Facebook sites and so on that you might like to look at, probably off topic so will send you a pm with the link when I get a spare min to upload then to imgur.com.

Keeffro
5th Oct 2016, 20:57
Thought I was up for at least a carpeting, if not Court Martial.

You may remember I posted a few weeks ago about a former RAF Catalina pilot who was due to give a talk about his time during WW2 flying over [words missing - it turns out that he flew on the North Atlantic on anti-submarine patrols and Murmansk convoy escort duty].

I was away in the meantime, and when I got back I looked up the relevant website for details, only to discover that seating was limited and the event was fully booked. Aaargh!

My first, orderly civil service reaction was to send an email enquiring if there was a waiting list in case of cancellations. But then I realised a more direct "up the middle with smoke" approach was required. So I just turned up on the night, hoping there would be a spare seat, and bingo!

It took me 80 minutes battling my way across rush-hour Dublin to get there, to find that the room was almost completely full. However, there were still about five seats vacant, all of them in the centre in the front row (Danny will be familiar with this seating pattern from Mass). Bingo again!

The speaker, Ted Jones, was utterly delightful. Born in 1922, but you would take him for a sprightly 74-year-old.

I approached him after the talk, told him about this thread and asked him if he uses a computer. Unfortunately, he said no, which is really regrettable, as he is such a bright, lively character that he would be a wonderful asset here.

I thought of recording his talk, took out my phone, hesitated, then thought again and switched it on, not even sure if it would record an hour and a half's talk in one go. When I spoke to him I told him I had recorded most of the talk and asked if he would mind if I transcribed parts of it for this thread, and he immediately said "no problem".

It gets better. His talk was introduced/chaired by the Officer Commanding the Irish Defence Forces Archive, who expressed an interest in having Ted's memories properly recorded for an oral history project being carried out by the military section of the National Museum. Ted is actually English, and moved to Ireland in the mid-1940s because his wife was from Dublin, so it's not clear if his story would come within the terms of the history project, which concerns the Irish Defence Forces, but I'm hopeful the rules might be bent.

I'm travelling again shortly, but plan to try to follow up on this when I get back.

At the very least, I should be able to post some highlights of Ted's story here - the recording volume was low, but I think it should be usable.

MPN11
6th Oct 2016, 07:42
Huzzah ... fresh meat!!

Looking forward to whatever you can extract from your phone.

Danny42C
6th Oct 2016, 11:38
Some general observations on the Burma war in WWII might be helpful - not that I hold myself to be any kind of a military authority - In the first place, references to being "behind enemy lines" need qualification.

Burma and Siam (the old name was in use during WWII) are big places (combined land area 458,487 sq. mi.) Over this the warring armies roamed, much as in the medieval wars in Europe, with scant regard for the inhabitants. We had observed Siamese neutrality (as with Goa in India), but the Japanese invaded it on their 1942 advance North, so Siam was fair game after that. The ordinary Burmese and Siamese had no dog in this fight: I suppose they looked on it as simply White Sahibs fighting Yellow Sahibs for control of their lands and devoutly wished "a plague on both your Houses !"

It follows that there would be on the (southern) Japanese side large areas where there were no Japanese troops, and on the (northern) Allied side large areas where there would be no Allied ones. As you approached the battle areas, the numbers of combatants per sq. mi. would build up until you reached the "Front Lines" where troops were actually engaged.

These "Front Lines" were not contiguous. Arakan was a level, narrow coastal plain between the mountains and the Bay of Bengal up which the Japanese pushed: it was obviously the way to Chittagong (deep water port and a paved runway). Control of Chittagong would greatly simplify the Jap supply problem and it was one obvious springboard for the invasion of India (with Calcutta (on the other side of the bay), ripe fot taking - if you could get across the "Sunderbans" - the vast tidal delta of the Ganges and Bramahputra rivers.

Further North and East; the state of Manipur (Imphal and Kohima) in Assam, the geography offered another way of attack fom the central plain of Burma West into the Silchar valley.

Google: ...war map of the Manipur region in WWII...(scroll down to) ...Battle of Imphal-Kohima | World War II Database... (scroll down to).....Battle of Imphal-Kohima Interactive Map...

You can see the high road into (present) Bangladesh (then) "The North East Frontier Province" - and as it's well North of the Sunderbands, it's a straight walk to Calcutta (and there were railways).

Further North still, there were the Americans (General "Vinagar Joe" Stilwell) and "Merrill's Marauders" and Chennault with the "Flying Tigers", but they were less concerned with keeping the Jap out of India than of keeping Chaing Kai Shek and China going in their war with Japan.

So what's all this leading up to ? First, it explains how many of our "bale-outs" over Jap held territory walked back out without even seeing a Jap. And (without belittling their achievements in any way) how Orde Wingate and his Chindits, Force 136, (and John Dunbar et al) were able to achieve what they did. (Could a 'Chindit' style operation have been mounted in Europe ? - Impossible !)

Danny.

MPN11
6th Oct 2016, 12:15
However, one wonders how Japan could really sustain operations so far from home, with an ever-extending supply chain (viz: Burma Railway) and with the sea lanes under increasing pressure from both US and UK/Commonwealth naval forces. And would they have had the manpower to impose an Army of Occupation on anything as vast as India (or large parts thereof)? By 1943 they were already becoming over-extended, and losing command of the seas post-Midway.

Danny42C
6th Oct 2016, 12:31
BB (your pic with #9445),

Bolitho is wearing a "lunghi" (Burmese wraparound sleeping kit - much cooler than pyjamas) as we all did. You would wear it to and from your daily shower (no underclothes ever worn).

Danny.

Danny42C
6th Oct 2016, 12:55
andytug (your #9453),

Nothing seems to be "Off Topic" in this most wonderful and popular of all Threads ! (pace our long-suffering Moderators, whose infinite forebearance has made if so). If it's not sensitive, put it on Open Post. If they strike it down, then PM me - but my Inbox is always up against the buffers.

Thank you ! Whenever it's convenient to you. There is a good Youtube about Southport somewhere, but no idea how to get back to it.

So I had the story right - but the wrong Napoleon (can't win 'em all).

Danny.

Union Jack
6th Oct 2016, 13:44
Bolitho is wearing a "lunghi" (Burmese wraparound sleeping kit - much cooler than pyjamas) as we all did.

Now we know where the actress Cherie Lunghi's name comes from - or do we?:confused:

So I had the story right - but the wrong Napoleon (can't win 'em all).

Neither did he!:D

Jack

Wander00
6th Oct 2016, 15:22
I am intrigued as to why a Napoleon of any number might choose to go to Southport, given it is north of Watford

Danny42C
6th Oct 2016, 15:42
Keeffro (#9454),
...I approached him after the talk, told him about this thread and asked him if he uses a computer. Unfortunately, he said no, which is really regrettable, as he is such a bright, lively character that he would be a wonderful asset here...
True of all too many of us - I was 90 when I took the plunge. Get him to your laptop, show him this Thread, he'll be hooked, you'll get him 'on line' (they got me that way).
...I thought of recording his talk, took out my phone, hesitated, then thought again and switched it on, not even sure if it would record an hour and a half's talk in one go. When I spoke to him I told him I had recorded most of the talk and asked if he would mind if I transcribed parts of it for this thread, and he immediately said "no problem"......At the very least, I should be able to post some highlights of Ted's story here - the recording volume was low, but I think it should be usable...
Yessss ! (Box Brownie has John Dunbar DFC (RIP) in this way, as you can see. And if you could put an old-time pilot next to you to ask pertinent questions while he's on the phone. But we have to be careful - there have been one or two "Walter Mittys" mixed with the genuine old-timers.

Know nowt about Catalinas (or any other seabird, for that matter). But there was a naughty Catalina Flight Engineer who comes into my story (starts half way down p.151 #3019 here, and the rest is on p.152 #3030).

Danny.

andytug
6th Oct 2016, 20:23
Danny/Wander00

Opinion is divided it seems on whether he stayed in Southport or not.... Just found these links to videos on the history of Southport
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtm7D1yM7k4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT1Y4hVhpCI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXTvvZxKQT0

andytug
6th Oct 2016, 20:40
Those images of Southport, culled from various Facebook pages...if it works :)

Old images of Southport - Album on Imgur (http://imgur.com/a/9rVXD)

Danny42C
7th Oct 2016, 15:04
andytug,

What a feast of nostalgia ! Remember the 1947 (was it ?) Bathing Beauty Competition in the Lido.

Dated one of the finalists. Which one ? Can't remember. What was her name ? Can't remember.

Didn't last long, anyway !

Danny.

PS: It's Scaysbrick Hall - not Scarisbrick (the 'a' as in Que sarà, sarà), by the way. D,

GlobalNav
7th Oct 2016, 15:36
@Danny42C

"Dated one of the finalists. Which one ? Can't remember. What was her name ? Can't remember."

Alright, Danny, now what DO you remember about her. ;)

Danny42C
7th Oct 2016, 15:59
GlobalNav,

Danny does not "kiss and tell".....:=

Box Brownie
7th Oct 2016, 19:00
Flt Lt John Dunbar DFC (RIP) Five into four won't go

Debrief of Wg Cdr G Nottage and P/O G Bolitho after the rescue.

MPN11
7th Oct 2016, 19:56
Oh, simply fantastic! Thanks, Box Brownie!

"They came upon a mountain stream, which fell into a pool, and here they bathed ... " God, I bet they were pleased to find that. I'm trying to put myself mentally in their situation, and failing completely.

Danny42C
7th Oct 2016, 20:14
BB,

Wonderful story of amazing times ! Thought: "There, but for the Grace of God......."

Chugalug2
7th Oct 2016, 22:25
Thank you Box Brownie! You have presented us with a cornucopia which we can now pick over at leisure.

Danny, can you throw any light on the "E Group Channels" mentioned right at the end? It seems to imply that it was an escape organisation along the lines of those operating in the occupied European countries to effect the return of downed Allied aircrew. Was this similar?

Burma seems to be teeming with people. Every day they are avoiding or confronting the locals, all of whom seem remarkably friendly. Nonetheless they seem determined to avoid contact with the natives if possible and certainly steer clear of their homes. No doubt a wise precaution until they can be sure of whom they are dealing with. This seems to come right at the end when presumably some form of confirmation of reliability enabled them to put themselves into the hands of E Group. The brevity of that part of the report is presumably due to security considerations.

What I am puzzled by is the complete absence of any mention of their parachutes, which are major survival aids. Were they not worn anyway or would they be in stowage's that were difficult to access in a burning crashed aircraft? Whatever the reason they would have had better shelters and thus slept better if they had them to hand.

All in all a fascinating read. I have not managed to plot their route, but with so many waypoints mentioned it would be interesting to know how much distance they had covered at the end. Finally the written notes are, I presume, made by JD. He seems to demure about the strip at the end. I wonder why?

Box Brownie
8th Oct 2016, 05:49
Contact with 'friendly; forces is on the coming page Chug - also a map of their journey.
I am not sure if the notes are by John - the sheets are photo copies that John had.
The place from which they took off was a natural clearing, not a strip cleared in the jungle. Got to dash - going to Cosford.

Danny42C
8th Oct 2016, 18:11
Chugalug and BB,
...Danny, can you throw any light on the "E Group Channels"...Frankly, no ! Never heard of it. But then, why would we ? If it was some sort of escapers aid organisation, then it would be SOP that the possible beneficiaries of the system would be the very last people to be told about it.

We'd heard vaguely about the mysterious "136 Wing", and everyone knew about the Chindits, but no one knew exactly what they were doing, or where or when or how. Quite right, too - for: "Thou canst not utter what thou dost not know" ("hush-hush, old man, you know how it is, security and all that !")

In consequence we know that 84 were working with the Chindits till the early part of '44, and John Dunbar was with the squadron of L-5s, but we can only expect details of the odd episode, as in his "Five into Four won't go", but most will forever be hidden.

All we knew was that we had the "Dear Friend" leaflets for villagers we might meet on the trek back, and that the Naga tribes in the North were on our side. And we had our moneybelts (60 silver Indian Rupee coins - legal tender in Burma. You may remember the first mistake (they were filled with newly minted 1942 Rupees, which should not be in Burma at all, as the Jap had taken the whole country before they were issued there.

So, as you dished them out to the headmen of helpful villages, you were laying down a bright silver trail of your passage for the Japs hunting you ! Even when these were hurriedly withdrawn and refilled with old coins, there was nothing to stop a local from cutting your throat as you slept. and taking the lot !

It might be useful, in this world of instant communications, to remind people that, out on our jungle "strips" with our squadrons, we had no newspapers (apart from the anodyne, "SEAC News" (?) air dropped monthly by the "SEAC Anson"). No radios, no telephones, occasional letter from home or from pals elsewhere in India, but that was all. Apart from a general knowledge of how the war was going, and what we were doing ourselves, we knew little or nothing of what other Units were doing, even five miles away.

Reverting to the "security" angle, I have no doubt that the units involved made the most of their "hush-up" status for any benefit it brought. For I did it myself, I could con my way round India on the strength of my "Special Duties" Flight. That impressed straight away, and when it was backed up by a quiet mention of the dread words: "Porton Down", further questioning ceased. Fill 'er up, Sir ? Stopping overnight ? - no problem, Sir, we've got a spare 'basha' - is that your kit ? my bearer will look after you. Anything else we can do for you, Sir ?

Why didn't I take a week off from Cannanore (I'm sure the Wg Cdr wouldn't object, the unit ran fine when I was away with malaria), and take a VV up to Agra and have a look at the Taj Mahal ?

Too honest (stupid), I suppose.

Danny.

esa-aardvark
8th Oct 2016, 18:20
Hello Danny, I know that my Father, who was there at the same time as you,
and was involved in dropping supplies did not think much of Wingate.
Will be home(NZ) & reunited with his records soon, will try to dig further.
John

Chugalug2
8th Oct 2016, 22:59
Thank you for the reminder that the last people who know what is going on in a war are the very people that are fighting it, Danny! Even the immediate post war accounts left more questions than answers. No doubt there will be many more t's and i's to get the full treatment in many more years time before we know as much as is ever likely to be known.

However, what we will then lose is the direct evidence from those, like you, who were there. Accounts such as JD's will always be treasured and revered of course, but they can no longer be added to. In contrast, your readiness to answer our incessant questions with the most detailed and precise answers means that we are forever being updated on the experiences of an operational RAF pilot flying in support of 14th Army in Burma.
"SEAC News" (?) air dropped monthly by the "SEAC Anson").

Who knew that before? Not me. Wikki offers no clue, but does instead come up with Radio SEAC:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_SEAC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Lanka_Broadcasting_Corporation

Did you ever tune into it, Danny? I see that two of the announcers were a David Jacobs and a Desmond Carrington. I wonder how things turned out for them? :)

jaganpvs
9th Oct 2016, 00:43
Danny, the Flypast forum thread reminded me of this.. Training Tools at a Vengeance Bomber Operational Training Unit (152 OTU, Peshawar)

http://www.rafcommands.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/AirGunnerTraining.jpg

Danny42C
9th Oct 2016, 14:02
Chugalug,
...Did you ever tune into it, Danny?.."No radio"....."Why not"...."No power"...."Dry batteries, then"...."No batteries" (Scarcer than hen's teeth, scarcer than razor blades - and that's saying something)...."MT battery then ?" ..."Minimum 6V, too much"... "Aircraft battery/Trolley Acc ?"...."Worse, 24V"..."Wind-up one ?"..."Not invented yet".

D. has forgotten all he ever knew about crystals and cat's whiskers, gets out wind-up portable gramophone, puts on much loved, worn, scratched, shellac (record) "Vera Lynn".....

Needs new needle...."No needles"..."Why not"..."All high grade steel reserved for war effort - but never mind lad, here's a bag of sharp thorns, they're nearly as good" ....
"Where did these come from ?"...."Your indefatigible Squadron Entertainments Officer went all the way on first-class rail to Calcutta, endured all the rigours of a six- course dinner and comfortable bed under a fan at the "Grand", then after a four-course breakfast strolled round to the "Hog" Bazarr" and brought you these, a steal at 8 annas bag"...."And he would be ?.....

Why, D. of course ! (What else did he do - not much, as I remember - flew a VV from time to time, and drank a lot of "John Collinses" (must not get dehydrated, you see).

♫....there's a hole in my bucket....♫

Danny.

Danny42C
9th Oct 2016, 14:53
Jagan,

Welcome back - it's been a long time ! Thanks for the link, got it up.

Reaction: Shock, Horror ! Never heard of any of these ideas except the "Link" that we all know too well; but the "Polebrook Trainer" has a similarity with the "Edmunds Trainer" (the thing I found in my logbook on my Spitfire OTU, couldn't remember what it was, but the kindly friends on this Thread dug it out for me).

Turns out to be a pilot's gunsight put on a Link, another chap pushes a trolley past you with a model He-111 or something up on an arm, you have to apply correct deflection.
Anyone who has "flown" a Link knows how utterly hopeless that would be (and was !)

By one of the curious coincidences of war, at the end I had with me a Wg Cdr Edmondes, an Armaments Officer, it was his idea three years before (Edmondes - Edmonds - Edmunds, you see). He was a pilot, too, can only think he never flew a Link, or he would have known what a daft idea it was.

Now 152 OTU at Peshawar was set up, I think, some time after the RAF Squadrons had worked (by trial and error) out how to use a VV as a dive bomber (nobody else in the RAF knew anything about them). I presume they planned their flying training syllabus on our reports; I'd be very interested if you could let us know (on Open Post here) if you have any info on that.

Don't go away now !

Danny.

PS: Hope you are in contact with Peter Smith by now. D.

Box Brownie
9th Oct 2016, 18:11
Looking up 136 Force it would appear they were an arm of SOE in Burma.

Attached are the only two copies of Norman Bolitho's account that John had, of their journey through the jungle and a map - I would guess that Bolitho wrote it for the 177 Squadron magazine ? It throws a little more light on how they met friendly forces and also the arrival of the L5's

John regularly attended their squadron re unions

Chugalug2
9th Oct 2016, 18:13
Danny:-
...and drank a lot of "John Collinses" (must not get dehydrated, you see).

Which rather trumped listening to David Jacobs and Desmond Carrington (for want of batteries), and if it's not too ungallant, Vera Lynn (for want of needles) I'm sure!

BTW, Danny, you mentioned 136 Wing as a known unknown. It would still seem to be, as both Wiki and Air of Authority seem pretty vague about it (though I'm not a member of the latter which might be the explanation for that). Have you any idea of what they were flying, from where, and against what (we can guess whom)? All subject to the OSA of course. I wouldn't want to be the cause of you becoming the guest of HM, or helping with her enquiries you understand...

pettinger93
10th Oct 2016, 10:14
Have been reading the Burma and Chindit threads with interest. As I mentioned 'pilots brevet' a while ago, my father ( Harold Pettinger MC) was the Captain (later Major) in charge of the 'special forces' unit who arranged the air drops to support the Chindits in the jungle. On clearing his house ( he died 2 years ago aged 93) we found the radio code books the Chindits used to request their needs, which we donated to the Imperial War Museum. The requests were procured , 'junglised' and then either dropped over a map reference , or, later on, flown to a jungle airstrip. My father often went out in the Dakotas and into one of the jungle airstrips ('White City' I think?) . He spoke of dropping a number of a very early type of outboard motors plus £10000 of gold sovereigns over a map reference and often speculated if the gold was ever retrieved or whether it is still lying in the jungle. The outboard motors were 'run in' by placing them in oil drums filled with water and left to run. I assume they were used by troops to cross the larger rivers? Dad also arranged for the manufacture by his engineers of the brass plaque that was placed over the site where Wingate died in the air crash. This plaque is also now in the Imperial war Museum, having been later replaced by something grander. Dad thought highly of Wingate as a leader and soldier, but said he was mad as a hatter, and would not have survived in the post war army.

Wander00
10th Oct 2016, 10:39
Aah, outboard motors - I once had a Seagull on a dayboat I sailed from Morston Creek in Norfolk, around 1984-5 time. I wrote to Seagull to ask if they could tell me anything about it, sending the serial number. They replied, surprised it was still operating, as it had been made for a one-off trip in 1944.

pettinger93
10th Oct 2016, 11:10
Think my father said that the outboards as delivered to him were American, basic and unreliable. He and his engineers had to semi-rebuild them to make them fit to use by the troops. Although we knew something of his activities in India and Burma, it wasn't until we went through his papers after he died that we realised that he was 'special forces'. Having won his MC in the first siege of Tobruk, he was supposed to take part in the first Chindit operations but was injured during training by falling down a cliff while leading a section in the jungle at night. Probably saved his life, as 60 pct or more of those in the first Chindit operation did not come back. His knee injury healed but not sufficiently to allow him to walk into the jungle, so was put in charge of the supply operation.

Danny42C
10th Oct 2016, 15:01
BB (#9479),

This is really interesting ! Now we're in the shadowy world of 136 Force (not Wing) ad "E" Group - clandestine forces......

I know we must wait for the logbooks and the denouement, but can't help asking: How did John get into this pickle in the first place ? 177 Sqdn flew Beaus (and nothing else) [Wiki]. So how does he get in with the L-5s ? And what were the L-5s ? Were they a pukka RAF Squadron (if so, number please) or just a loose bunch attached (?) to this mysterious Force 136 ?

Reading the detail of their trek through the jungle, makes me glad I chose basketball boots for my 'ops', so I (hoped) could wade through the 'chaungs" * with their canvas uppers and heavy rubber soles, then they could dry off on my feet. What did our intrepid pair have on their tootsies ?

* : We used to say that "Everything in Burma is Baung, Chaung or Daung".

Even on the "conventional" VV sqdns, we had moneybelts for 'ops' as early as May 1943. Did our two have them ? If so, a rupee or two to the helpful villagers and their headmen would seem to have been in order.

Questions, questions - we must wait for the answers.

Danny

Danny42C
10th Oct 2016, 15:22
Chugalug (#9480),
... Have you any idea of what they were flying, from where, and against what (we can guess whom)?... Not a clue ! We heard runours about these mysterious "behind enemy lines" units, and a surprising amount of intelligence filtered back (in particular, bomb damage reports and "target-spotting" for us), But we never knew how (it was probably better that way).

BB will reveal all when he gets the logbooks.

Danny.

Danny42C
10th Oct 2016, 15:37
John (#9474),

Thanks (all's grist that comes to this mill). Yes, I fear Wingate (whatever his good qualities), had a reputation as a self-publicist.

Looking forward to your Dad's story (31 Sqdn ?)

Danny.

Danny42C
10th Oct 2016, 16:21
Chugalug (#9475),

...support of 14th Army in Burma.
Quote:
"SEAC News" (?) air dropped monthly by the "SEAC Anson").
Who knew that before? Not me...

No trace Google or Wiki. But I know something of the sort existed (can't ever remember reading the paper, however). But the "SEAC Anson" trundled round the major airfields on a monthly basis, delivering the things, I'm sure (don't think they actually air-dropped). Anybody else remember ?

Danny.

ian16th
10th Oct 2016, 20:57
Odd note:

Do y'all realise that the venerable Anson was in production until 1952?

My 1st air experience flight was in one that year, it could have been brand new!

jaganpvs
11th Oct 2016, 02:35
Danny

With ref to

I presume they planned their flying training syllabus on our reports; I'd be very interested if you could let us know (on Open Post here) if you have any info on that.

Your wish is my command. Click below..

http://www.rafcommands.com/galleries/var/resizes/The-National-Archives/152-OTU/152OTU-Page1.JPG?m=1476152898 (http://www.rafcommands.com/galleries/photos/1646) http://www.rafcommands.com/galleries/var/resizes/The-National-Archives/152-OTU/152OTU-Page2.JPG?m=1476152898 (http://www.rafcommands.com/galleries/photos/1647)

You will note that there is not much syllabus about "Dive bombing"here. that because the armament syllabus was undertaken at the "ATU Bairagarh" later known as No.1 Air Gunnery School, Bhopal.

..and yes I got i touch with peter smith now..

MPN11
11th Oct 2016, 08:46
jaganpvs ... fascinating! Thank you :ok:

Danny42C
11th Oct 2016, 11:06
ian16th (#9488),
...Do y'all realise that the venerable Anson was in production until 1952?...
Surprised they stopped then ! Many moons ago on this Thread related a tale told to me by a John Henderson, wartime pilot, peacetime ATC, after retirement for some time SATCO at Teeside Airport. Met him several times in my ATC days, on my last tour at Leeming took odd parties of our new young Controllers over there to see the civil operation (and learn the story of the Middleton Ghost + a sight of the (consequent) new brickwork in the wall of the St.George's Hotel - the old Officers' Mess).

I digress: Seems John was slung out in 1946 like the rest of us, got a job as a salesman for Avros, got a contact on purchasing side of Air Ministry, dined and wined this chap so well that he came out with a contract for enough Anson spares to last to the end of the century ! (then got back in the RAF).

Believe it or not as you please. Couldn't happen now of course (?)

Danny.

MPN11
11th Oct 2016, 11:14
I see I have 2 Anson trips in my CCF Record of Service ... 13 Apr 59, both in T20 WJ514. IIRC the a/c was part of the Station Flight, when such things existed!

Wander00
11th Oct 2016, 11:28
TX 219 at, I think, Bassinbourn aged 13. Thought it was brilliant. Did not stop grinning for a week

Danny42C
11th Oct 2016, 11:33
Jagan (#9489),

Many thanks ! Will study this and comment later.
...that because the armament syllabus was undertaken at the "ATU Bairagarh" later known as No.1 Air Gunnery School, Bhopal...
Again - I never knew that - or even of the School's existence ! until now - shows how much you can learn on this Thread. In my defence, must point out that none of this started until long after we got the first Vengeances at the end of '42.

It was a case of: "here's your new aircraft, we know nothing about it, neither does anyone else, you're on your own now, see what you can do with it - and then write the "Pilot's Notes" for it".

We survived.

Danny.

Danny42C
11th Oct 2016, 11:49
MPN11 (#9482) and Wander00 (#9483,

Did you stii have to wind the u/c up and down (149 turns, I'm told) ?

Never flew one myself, but it was well loved as so simple to fly that it was used for comparison with other types, eg: (Britannia ? - it's just a big Anson).

Danny.

Fareastdriver
11th Oct 2016, 13:07
We had a Comms flight at Honington in the early sixties run by am aged Warrant Officer Pilot. It was mainly for taking crews to various places to pick up or drop off Victor and Valiant crews. It was dual controlled do he would always let me fly either there or back so he could put his feet up and smoke his pipe.

3 Group at Honington had one to carry the AOC or his staff around. On AOC's Inspection the AVM used to be driven in his Jaguar Mk7 from his office to his aircraft and as this aircraft was doing the necessary to get to Honington the AOC's driver would be hurling through the Suffolk countryside so as to get to Honington to meet him as his Anson arrived. Our Anson was eventually commandeered by 3 Group to form the 3 Group communications flight. After that we had to drive across the UK to position aircraft.

The Anson didn't seem to go all that well on one engine. The safety height was somewhere around 2,500 ft. IIRC and the Welsh and Scottish hills bore mute testimony to this fact. However, they had their uses; as a high proportion of the passengers were senior officers they used to clear out the bottlenecks in the promotion ladder.

Wander00
11th Oct 2016, 15:14
Danny - don't remember anyone winding, but if I had, would probably have thought it was the elastic

Warmtoast
11th Oct 2016, 16:29
All this talk about Agent drops to Chindits etc. got me reaching for my copy of 'SOE in the Far East' by Charles Cruickshank. Can't find amny mention of Stinson L-5's, but below what he says about 'Dispatch and Reception' in the Far East.
FWIW Cruickshank had official access to SOE records about 10-years before they were released and available in the National Archives


Only Burma (from India and China) and French Indo-China (from China) could be infiltrated overland; but it was virtually impossible because of the length of the journey and the danger of attack by bandits. The alternatives were dispatch by submarine or aircraft. However, the Royal Navy considered that submarines were best used to attack shipping, and while they did land many agents, the operations were almost invariably fitted into routine patrols. Equally, the RAF gave priority to their own operations.
In May 1942 the India Air Landing School at Dinjan in Assam dropped two agents into Siam, and in the next twelve months carried out ten more agent sorties, six successful. In June 1943 No. 1576 (Special Duties (SD)) Flight was formed at Chaklala with Hudsons, and for the first time SOE and the other clandestine services had exclusive use of RAF aircraft. The Flight was re-formed in February 1944 as No. 357 (SD) Squadron (commanded by Squadron Leader J. R. Moore), succeeded in December 1944 by Wing Commander L. M. (later Sir Lewis) Hodges. The Squadron’s A Flight (Dakotas, Hudsons, and Liberators) was based initially at Digri in Bengal, and from September 1944 at Jessore. B Flight - Catalina flying boats - was at Redhills Lake in Madras. From April 1945 No. 357 (SD) Squadron operated a Lysander Flight from Meiktila in Burma, using jungle airstrips to deliver and pick up agents. The Flight moved south to Mingaladon in May after the liberation of Rangoon. It carried out more than 350 sorties, taking in 142 men and bringing out 282. The clandestine operations Liberator fleet was augmented in November 1944 by the formation of No. 358 (SD) Squadron (commanded by Wing Commander P. G. D. Farr). No. 628 (SD) Squadron, formed in April 1944 (commanded by Squadron Leader F. L. Godber) and disbanded in October of that year, operated Catalinas from Redhills Lake, as did No. 240 Squadron from December 1944 (Wing Commander B. A. C. Wood). No. 160 Squadron (Liberators) was transferred to special duties in January 1945 and from April operated full time from Kankesanturai and Mmneriya in Ceylon dropping agents and supplies in Malaya and Sumatra.
When Liberators became available it was possible to cover from India or Ceylon almost the whole of the SEAC operational area In January 1945 a Liberator Mark VI of No. 357 (SD) Squadron captained by Flying Officer J. Churchill DFC, carried stores for an SOE party in South Johore to a dropping-zone surrounded by tall trees and visible only from directly overhead. The aircraft was airborne for twenty-one hours fifty-five minutes and on the homeward journey had to land at Chittagong as its fuel was nearly exhausted. This feat was exceeded on 31 July/1 August 1945 when a Liberator Mark Vc of No. 160 Squadron (captain Flight Lieutenant J. A. Muir) flew from Minneriya to South Johore. being airborne for twenty-four hours ten minutes, and spending eighty-five minutes over the target area at Kota Tinggi, where alas no reception party was seen.
For these long flights 16,000 pounds of fuel were needed to carry a payload of 2,000 pounds; and the aircraft had to take off at well above the official safe weight. The crews, many on their first operational tour, were under great strain, having from May to October to battle against the atrocious weather of the south-west monsoon, to navigate across mountainous jungle country where the only helpful landmark was the occasional river, and to pinpoint dropping-zones of necessity hidden in the most unlikely places, difficult to identify even on the clearest moonlit night. The weather was by far the greatest danger and accounted for many special-duties aircraft. Of the twenty-seven lost by Nos. 357 and 358 (SD) Squadrons only one was shot down by enemy fighters, over Siam on a daylight flight. Six of the crew, two of the OSS agents on board, and their conducting officer, escaped with their lives. Four of the crew were interned by the Siamese, but two including the captain and the three OSS men were rescued by the party to which they had been delivering stores. A Dakota of No. 357 (SD) Squadron later brought out the survivors.3
The skill and daring of the Lysander pilots won the admiration of the SOE parties they served. They used makeshift jungle airstrips usually with a surface at the mercy of the monsoon rains although some were more elaborate. At Mewaing in Burma a six-hundred-yard all-weather strip was constructed from split bamboo; and in Siam two semi-permanent strips were laid down with the help of village labour. One of these was 1,000 yards long, and consisted of nine inches of rock covered by gravel and earth in which grass was sown. Catalinas, which could carry agents to within a few miles of their landing-beaches, made it possible to dispense with submarines.
Parties could be dropped ‘blind’, that is to say into an area where there was no one to receive them; or they could drop to a reception committee’. In the more hazardous blind drop the leader jumped in the middle of the group so that he would be well placed to marshal them on landing. When all had landed they flashed their torches to provide an aiming point for the aircraft to drop their stores. When all containers had arrived torches were extinguished, or covered with a blue filter, and the collection of stores began. Reception committees and aircraft crews sometimes failed to appreciate each others difficulties. In May 1945 Wing Commander Hugh Verity made a compilation of reception committee comments and the related pilots reports which “showed how both sides do their damndest to make operations a success, and how difficult it is for the man on the ground to assess the aircrew’s difficulties’, in the hope that each side would become more tolerant of the other.
Blind dropping was very much hit or miss. Information about the dropping-zone might be out of date; and even an area that looks safe from aerial reconnaissance could have changed, for example, through the planting of ‘panjis’, chevaux defrise of sharpened bamboo waiting to impale the agent as he landed. Seven Kachins dropped in the Shan States in Burma had a lucky escape from this defensive weapon. They overshot their intended dropping-zone, and later discovered that the whole area had been panjied. Another group in the Shan States was equally lucky. They landed in the only place for miles around ‘which was not staked against glider attack and sown with panjis against parachute landings’. Even slight panji wounds were liable to turn septic.
It was safer to go in to a reception committee whether by day or by night. The dropping-zone was delineated by pre-arranged signal fires, or torches, perhaps in the form of a T, with a torch flashing a letter in Morse code. At night fires could be seen a long way off, but in daylight pilots had to rely on smoke which might be dispersed by the wind or masked by the jungle. There was also the danger of confusion with ordinary village fires, and from time to time villagers received unsolicited gifts of foodstuffs and highly sophisticated explosive devices.
The reception committee could communicate with an aircraft in daylight by means of a visual code using three white panels. A single panel, looking like the figure ‘I’ from the air, was a request for a W/T set, ‘II’ for a W/T operator, ‘III’ for a doctor, and so on. Two panels making an arrowhead directed the aircraft towards a bombing target, other panels, each representing 1,000 yards, indicating the distance. Towards the end of the war in the Far East visual methods of communication were being replaced by the Rebecca/Eureka system which used radar in the aircraft (Rebecca) to help the navigator to locate a ground party equipped with the matching Eureka. An alternative was the S-phone through which the ground operator could talk to the aircraft, using a silent microphone which allowed him to speak in little more than a whisper. Some parties were equipped with these devices but neither had much success in the Far East.
Many agents - ‘Joes’, as they were termed in the aircraft captains’ reports - appeared to make light of the considerable ordeal of a parachute jump. One, dropping into French Indo-China, ‘went out calmly chewing a sandwich’. However, Major R. A. Rubinstein’s account of his drop into Burma in January 1945 probably epitomizes the feelings of most. Although he was a twenty-four-year-old veteran who had served with the Maquis the parachute jump was still a challenge.
Felt rotten all the afternoon and very frightened. Thought I would never face another op. after this, and was very annoyed at the offhand manner of the non-op types who kept saying ‘Don’t worry, old boy, the chute won’t open anyway’, all very funny . . . When the take-off came I felt much better . . . Was quite easy during the run and didn’t feel too bad on the slide . . . Felt much better when I heard the engine note change, and I went. . . The moon was very bright and even colours showed up. A grand reception, all fear gone and glad to have arrived. One never notices the fear going, it just does!
There were few fatal parachute casualties. One occurred when a man’s weight proved to be more than his parachute could cope with. There was a bizarre accident when a Liberator’s crew had to bale out over Burma. The radio operator could not find his parachute and was taken on the back of the second pilot, an Australian; but when the parachute opened the man lost his hold and fell to his death.5 Minor mishaps were not uncommon - bones could be broken, especially when men jumped from a low height. A whole party dropped into Malaya in February 1945 found themselves hung up on trees, and one member narrowly escaped strangulation. Another, carrying the W/T battery on his back suffered severe burns from leaking acid. The failure rate of parachutes carrying stores was much higher - round about 5 per cent.
There was an art in camouflaging the arrival of agents in enemy territory. Sorties could be synchronized with bombing raids to divert attention from them. Flares could be used to give the impression that photo-reconnaissance was the sole object of the mission. Leaflets could be scattered on the flight to and from the dropping-zone to make the enemy believe that the aircraft was flying a routine propaganda sortie. These methods were surprisingly effective. One dropping-zone in Burma no more than two miles from a Japanese outpost was regularly supplied for five months before the enemy became aware of it.
Before SOE could call on special-duties aircraft it had to rely on submarines for long-range operations. The Royal Navy approved these missions but usually only as part of their own routine patrols, a compromise that neither side liked. Submarine commanders’ reports are often scathing about SOE’s performance and are regularly endorsed: ‘Yet another wasted mission.’ In July 1943 Mackenzie asked for a submarine force for his exclusive use so as the present procedure whereby SOE operations must of necessity be secondary to submarine renders any precision of execution almost out of the question and has proved to react most unfavourably on SOE personnel whose despatch has frequently to be postponed at the last minute and who have to remain under conditions detrimental to their physique for longer periods than would be needful if they were allowed to proceed direct to their operational area.
Nothing came of this breathless sentence; but the need for a special submarine fleet disappeared when longer-range aircraft became available.

Box Brownie
11th Oct 2016, 17:38
Thank you for the added information Warmtoast - Wiki does give an explanation of 136 Force.

Danny, I should have made clear that John attended 177Squadron re-unions as a guest, the result of bring their C.O, George Nottage , out of the jungle after his crash landing.

I have spoken to John's son. The log book is missing as is a very valuable collection of stamps. He has searched his house and has John's medals plus the escape map and the Japanese flag that John brought home.

One page of John's log book that I did photograph gives a clear picture of his movement through Burma with General Messervey and 4 Corps.

Attachment 1 Recue Five into four won't go

Box Brownie
11th Oct 2016, 17:54
The only other pages I have from John's log book is one that ties in with the letter to him from Mountbatten and from the back of his log book, his record of service. This page gives clear detail of his progress through the jungle with 4Corps and General Messervey.

Union Jack
11th Oct 2016, 18:12
Great stuff, BB - we are very fortunate that you have been prepared to go to such lengths to present the exploits of John and his colleagues for our delectation, and just so sorry to hear that the logbook - and of course the stamp collection cannot be found. One can only hope that they will.

On a different tack, I can't help wondering if V (AC) Squadron were ever fortunate enough to hear about the derring-do of a previous generation of Sentinel pilots.:ok:

Jack