Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II [Archive] - Page 33

Walter603

1st Jan 2016, 08:24

Old Comrades

February passed into March (as usual!) and spring came. There was some improvement in the weather, and our flying prowess also improved, except for some of our unfortunate comrades. There were a number of fatalities at night, when aircraft inexplicably crashed to the ground, sometimes from great heights. Every crash meant the deaths of two more trainee aircrew. I heard a theory many years after the war, that carotene was the cause, in the pounds and pounds of carrots served to us with our meals, on the assumption that carotene was good for night vision. The new theory I heard was that carotene caused drowsiness to a greater or lesser degree, according to the metabolism of the individual.

My friend Harry Beck was one of the victims. I was up on an exercise one night, and heard the Control Tower making vain attempts to contact him. His call-sign was "Six-one" (61), and mine was "Six-five". He had been at about 10,000 feet for the purpose of his exercise, and simply plunged to earth for some mysterious reason. Fortunately, hwas flying solo on this occasion, and we didn't lose his observer. His death was a sad blow, especially when his mother telephoned me about a week later to ask about a dog she thought her son had recently bought.

About the beginning of April 1942, the great day came when we had finished our training on Blenheims and each was required to "go solo" on a Beaufighter before being posted to a Squadron. The Beaufighter was a very powerful twin-engined aircraft, allmetal, armed with six machine guns in the wings, and four 20mm cannons that fired through the nose. There was room in the front of the aircraft only for the pilot instructor. The pupil was required to stand behind him, in the "well" created by the entry and escape hatch when closed. In this hazardous position, I gasped with wonder at the surge of speed as we took off, a Warrant Officer pilot at the controls, and we swooped around the countryside with an overwhelming sense of power.

I watched the controls and instruments carefully, and at how the W/O was handling the 'plane. We landed beautifully, taxied to the hangar, and the instructor climbed out after giving me a few last-minute tips. Then I taxied out to the runway, called the Tower for permission to take-off, and was airborne, in what was virtually a repeat of my first solo on the Miles Magister. A most exciting and satisfying one hour of practice followed, and I was delighted to make a very passable landing at the end.

My posting was to No. 219 Squadron, stationed at Tangmere, near Chichester, a lovely old cathedral town on the south coast of England. My Radar Observer was Bob Hessey, another Londoner about my age. I don't think we were received very cordially on the Squadron. One of the members was Wing Commander Max Aitken, son of the late Lord Beaverbrook, who afterwards succeeded to his father’s title. My Flight Commander was Squadron Leader Wight-Boycott, but I didn't get to know him very well.

At interview by the Squadron CO on arrival, he asked me how many hours I had flown in the Beaufighter. “One hour sir” I told him. Imagine the look on his face. “One hour?” he said incredulously. “You’re no good to me yet” was a short version of his retort.

I was sent almost immediately to St.Athan, an Air Force Base in South Wales. Beaufighters were fitted there with the radar equipment essential for their role as night fighters. The equipment had to be tested before the aircraft were despatched to squadrons. My temporary job was to fly each newly-fitted aeroplane, with a radar engineer in the observer's back seat, putting the radar through its paces. In three or four weeks, I built up about 40 flying hours, and became much more useful when I returned to 219 Squadron.

Danny42C

1st Jan 2016, 15:30

Walter,

How on earth did you manage to get to a Squadron without having first gone through a full Beaufighter OTU ? There would seem to have been only two OTUs (out of 60+) training on Beaufighters (unbelievable !), both Coastal, so you should have gone to one or the other, surely, instead of C.F. , which was:
...No. 54 Operational Training Unit RAF
No. 54 OTU was formed in November 1940 at RAF Church Fenton to train night fighter crews.[1]...
but seemingly just on Blenheims.

(Extract from)List of Royal Air Force Operational Training Units.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
...No. 3 (Coastal) Operational Training Unit RAF
No. 3 OTU was formed in 1940 as part of Coastal Command at RAF Catfoss for training aircrew on coastal command aircraft types like the Avro Anson and Bristol Beaufighter until it was disbanded 4 January 1944.[1]...
and
...No. 132 (Coastal) Operational Training Unit RAF
Formed in November 1942 at RAF East Fortune as part of No. 17 Group Coastal Command to train long-range fighter and strike training using the Bristol Blenheim and Bristol Beaufighter.[1]...
It would seem that you fell through the gap as 132 were not formed until after you needed them. So why not send you to Catfoss ?

You must have slipped through the net somehow. Luckily there was a job going for you at St.Athan to pile in the hours !

Cheers, Danny.

Danny42C

1st Jan 2016, 16:19

Chugalug (your #8002), and the wonderful link:
(http://www.ex-cbi-roundup.com/documents/1966_july.pdf)

This is right up GlobalNav's street ! Marvellous reading !

(Your second link would keep us going for ever - but meat and drink to GlobalNav.

Now I venture to add a few words of my own by way of comment on the first link:

The ex-CBI "Roundup" takes you back. As we guessed, Ranikhet was a R & R facility - rather like my Gulmarg or Chakrata.

Commenting on the pictures, I would note:

(1) The US seems to have been able to do better than our humble charpoy !(but try carrying the whole lot around on your head down the street). Our nayee in Chakrata was supposed to have such a delicate touch that he could shave you without waking you up (never tried it !).

(2) Looks a ghastly place (and the "wild man" in [3] has only a few scraggy trees in the background). Hill stations were always well wooded, pleasant places. Naini Tal (not far to the south) was supposed to be lovely.

(3) Myitkina is pronounced "Mitchinar" (never mind what Wiki says !) Or at least, that was what we called it.

(4) A sad (but all too common) sight at the burning ghats down by the riverside. I suppose the Hoogly river at Calcutta counted as the Ganges for religious purposes - at least they ended up in the same estuary. A poor family would not be able to afford enough wood to do the job properly, but never mind - they chucked what was left into the river regardless. Anywhere along the thousand-mile length of the sacred Ganges, if you fell in, you did well to keep your mouth shut (but the locals splash about in it with impunity).
...He was bitten while trying to force feed the lethal eight-foot snake...
A king cobra, no less. Now that is asking for trouble ! (Rikki-tiki-tavi, we need you). Gila monster ? (must look it up).

Tibetan (possibly, but a long way south for them) salesmen - all you need to know is "Kitna Pice ?" Start by offering a third. Settle on a half.

(5) "Merrill's Marauders" - much the same as our Chindits.
... "79 day rooms down through Burma and Assam" ?...
"Day Rooms" - not sure what is meant. "Gung-Ho" (Press on regardless !), very well known this side of the pond. "Bath House" - who ever heard of such luxury ! You've got a four-gallon can of water and a bit of soap - be happy !

(6) "From the Statesman". Calcutta newspaper (think "Daily Telegraph"). Fatehpur Sikri, near Delhi, is 800 miles West of Calcutta. The rest is a sad story all over the world.

(7) "latrine rumors" (aka "latrinograms"), "before they "bas" at night" ("Bus", "Bas"= "Enough !")

(8) Remember Harold Wilson: "This will not affect the pound in your pocket !"

(9) ..."Capt. Robert Root, 26, of Chicago turned the controls over to Lt Clifford Anderson of New Rochelle, N.Y"...
The USAAF could afford two pilots on their "heavies". We couldn't. He took a whale of a chance, coming in wheels-down when you don't know what you're landing on (I don't believe it).
..."The Zero came in first, straffed the whole left side of the ship, swooped up in a screaming climb. And then the Oscar dove in"...
They would be two "Oscars" (almost identical to the Zero in appearance, and very near it in performance). But the Zero was carrier-based, would not be employed so far inland.

Note:

"By HARRY ZINDER Life and Time Correspondent" (So, a journalist. Might have pepped it up a bit ? ) Good show, anyway.

(13) Poor Calcutta - but all this is after Independence, so after my time. Famine was endemic in W.Bengal ("bustee" = "slum").

..."NEW DELHI-Imported cargo, worth about Rs 17 lakhs, was stolen from Indian ports within the last two years, UNI has learned from official quarters. The extent of loss involved in foreign exchange due to reissue of import licenses could not be determined"...
That should not surprise anybody with experience of the sub-continent ! (Lakh = 100,000)

(13) ...MADRAS [not "CHENNAI" yet ?] - Nearly Rs 10 lakhs worth of imported equipment meant for the Sabarigiri hydro-electric project in Kerala have been rendered useless because of the authorities' failure to store them properly. Steel punchings imported from the USA were kept out in the open at the project site for more than a year, and now are rejected by the American engineers associated with the project because they are covered with rust. The Kerala State Electricity board, responsible for the project, have contended that its officials were not aware of the need to store the equipment indoors...
Par for the Course !

(14) ...Railway System Helped Air Travel Third Class Carriage LifeBy S.Sgt. Karl Peterson (eBl ROlil/dup-jlllle 29, 1944)...

Wonderful ! Couldn't have said it better myself ! (indeed, I've said much the same myself). But in my day all officers travelled 1st Class. Other Ranks, 2nd Class (which was nearly as good). No European would dream of travelling in anything less.

(15) Book Reviews - no comment.

(16) - (19) ...Where the Old and New Co - Exist...

Very interesting. (No knowledge of Bhutan).

(19) ...HYDERABAD- Trains passing through drought-hit areas of Rayalaseema are having reserve police escorts to ensure that thirsty villagers do not hold up the trains to get water from the engines. The latest "holdup" was at Bainhal village in Kurnool district where the the train was mobbed and the driver forced to empty the tank...

Only in India ! (But, at halts, he would bleed enough from the boiler to fill a kettle, if asked nicely).

(21) Leprosy.

(22) No Comment.

(23) ...WOMEN carrying tiles for repairing roofs at the Ramgarh enlisted men's barracks. Photo by Andrew Janko...
Women do much of the heavy work out there.

(23) ...the little kids went to bed without getting the usual chapter from Kipling's "Jungle Book" read to them; I was still reading around midnight...
Better for them than "Harry Potter !"

A bit long, but never mind. :=

Cheers, both. Danny.

Walter603

2nd Jan 2016, 06:16

Re your 8012 about OTU training: Ah....sweet mystery of life! I don't have a clue about all that missed training. What I've described is just how it happened. I knew of 15 2-man crews like mine, some of whom were posted to 600 (City of London) Squadron or to 604 Sqn. both were equipped with Beaufighters, and no doubt there were other astonished COs who wondered why they were receiving untrained aircrew.

I always wondered why I didn't receive proper pilot training for action, either at night or later by day, when I was sent to 603 with the Desert Air Force.

Similarly I had no formal training in the aiming and dropping of bombs. It was "go out and try your luck on the wreck just outside Tobruk Harbour".

I do wonder how we managed in the end to win the war!
More to come, Danny.

Ian Burgess-Barber

2nd Jan 2016, 08:00

Walter (and Danny)

Well, well, well, how fascinating to read of your experience, no OTU, just sent out into the world as you were. My late father has no OTU in his record of service either. After his multi-engine training at 6(P).A.F.U. Little Rissington in 1943 he was sent to Mauripur Karachi, (via Blackpool and Worli Bombay) and put to work (initially with 21 Ferry Control). Danny and I were really irritated by the omission of an OTU (his log book is meticulous apart from this one missing record), so thank you for posting that this, could, and did happen to you and others.

Happy New Year to all

Ian BB

Chugalug2

2nd Jan 2016, 09:09

Now that Walter has put training aircraft behind him and is now flying his beloved Beaufighter, while Jack Stafford is well into his stride on the Typhoon, here are the Pilots Notes for these two fine WWII operational aircraft:-

A.P. 1721 F.H. & J Pilot's Notes for Beaufighter Mk VI ,TFX & XI (http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/aircraft/uk/bristol-aeroplane-company/beaufighter/a-p-1721-f-h-j-pilot-s-notes-for-beaufighter-mk-vi-tfx-xi.html)

A.P. 1804 Pilot's Notes for Typhoon - Marks IA and IB Sabre II or IIA Engine - 2nd Edition (http://www.avialogs.com/index.php/en/aircraft/uk/hawker/typhoon/a-p-1804-pilot-s-notes-for-typhoon-marks-ia-and-ib-sabre-ii-or-iia-engine-2nd-edition.html)

Fareastdriver

2nd Jan 2016, 09:19

We had one of the last Typhoon pilots on 33 Squadron in the early 70s. He would describe the getaway from a rocket attack as having the throttle wide open and feet OFF the rudder. The German gunners would set their offset in front of the aircraft but the torque would throw in so much skid that the shells would pass by a wingtip.

BigDotStu

2nd Jan 2016, 11:15

Having spent the last month reading all 401 pages of this thread thus far, I just wanted to say thank you to all those who have contributed to make it, as Danny says, "the best of all threads".

I am woefully under qualified to contribute - my military/aviation career consisting of 3 years in the school CCF RAF Section encompassing many afternoons on Primary glider bungy duty on the school playing fields, and half a dozen flights with 5AEF from Marshalls in Cambridge (including stick time mainly on Chipmunks, but also on the infamous Husky - much to the distress of the backseat occupants who knew it was my first time at the controls!).

The one thing I would like to ask, but suspect there may be no one around who can really answer it, is what the Marshalls input was to the RAF training in the early war years. I have heard it said that they developed a much improved training scheme which was subsequently adopted as the standard RAF training scheme. I'm guessing that anyone who was trained by Marshalls would be even older than our current 'senior' aircrew - but you never know.

Geriaviator

2nd Jan 2016, 13:56

http://s20.postimg.org/pc4n3h0z1/Beaufighter_abandon.jpg

Walter's alarming description of his conversion to the Beaufighter is supported by my latest book, Night Fighter over Germany by Graham White (Kindle Books, only 99p). White provides his own delightful illustrations such as the one above showing the abandonment procedure and the hatch upon which the student pilot had to stand. He mixes dry humour on the absurdities of Service life with gripping detail. Here's his take on Beaufighter instruction:

I stood behind the instructor-pilot, peering over his shoulder trying to see how he flew the thing. Actually you could see the square root of sod-all, but you were standing on the escape hatch, which bore a remarkable resemblance to a hangman’s trap-door. So not surprisingly you spent the trip remembering that he operated the lever that opened it, and trying very hard not to annoy him. After that you read up the technical notes on the plane, then took off and flew it on your own – the first time that you had handled the controls – while the rest of the aircrew watched at the end of the runway, making ribald comments about your incompetence to your new and nervous navigator.
His OTU at Charterhall in the Scottish borders was soon renamed Slaughterhall, and with good reason.
Eighty-four Mark II Beaufighters were sent to Charterhall. Thirty-nine of them (that is forty-six per cent) crashed, eighteen of them during take-off, landing, or overshooting. Four force-landed, six plunged into the sea, five into the ground, four caught fire in the air, and two simply disappeared off the face of the earth. If you read this thread, you'll love this book. How about this account of a Mosquito intruder trip over Germany … It was late at night, Christmas was coming up and maybe we weren’t keeping quite as sharp an electronic eye open as we should have. Suddenly, a Scottish burr in our earphones snapped out a challenge, ‘Bogey, bogey! Turn starboard!’ ‘Bogey’ meant unidentified aircraft, and this was a warning call. A free-ranger like ourselves was behind an unknown aircraft close by and making a final check before opening fire. Aircraft hearing this would immediately turn sharp right, showing that it was British. A couple of dozen planes must have hurriedly, and simultaneously, turned right in response to the challenge. So how did we know that it was us he was behind? Because, momentarily surprised, I turned left.

Our earphones crackled with Caledonian indignation: ‘I said “Starboard”, you prat!’ ‘Sorry!’ I hurriedly turned in the opposite direction. ‘Okay!’ he called, ‘Happy Christmas!’ and went on his way. Or presumably he did – we saw nothing from start to finish.

Danny42C

2nd Jan 2016, 14:17

BigDotStu,

Let me be the first to welcome you to our Cybercrewroom in the firmament, where good fellowship prevails and no harsh word may be spoken (if you've managed to read it through from Post No.1 - 401, then "War and Peace" or "Das Kapital" should be a doddle).
...The one thing I would like to ask, but suspect there may be no one around who can really answer it...
That's fighting talk !

Without doing any research, I believe the general syllabus of military flying training was laid down for the RFC in WWI by a Colonel Smith-Barry, carried over to the RAF and adopted in its essentials by every air force in the developed world. Marshall's came along much later and would have been obliged to follow it.

Marshall's of Cambridge supplied the pilots for the (RAF's) aircraft that flew for the JATCS at Shawbury in my time; earlier they had taken over both our task and our aircraft when 20 Sqdn was disbanded at Valley in 1951. As its contractors, they have been associated with the RAF for ages.

Now let's hear about your aviating. What was a Husky, for a start ? [Googled: got a lot of pics but no info. Looks like a Piper Cub :confused:].

Danny42C.

Danny42C

2nd Jan 2016, 14:49

Walter (your #8014),

My experience was the opposite - I did 75 hrs on the Spitfire at 57 OTU - and then didn't fly one again for seven years !
...I do wonder how we managed in the end to win the war!...
Those Germans must have been damned inefficient, that's all I can say....!

Danny.

BigDotStu

2nd Jan 2016, 15:18

...The one thing I would like to ask, but suspect there may be no one around who can really answer it...

That's fighting talk !

Hi Danny,

Probably should have phrased that better - I meant no one around still with first hand experience :)

I'll go and do some homework and report back - I think there is something interesting there, which predates the training schemes you guys experienced.

Now let's hear about your aviating. What was a Husky, for a start ?

It's very kind of you to show interest, but seriously, I can fit it all in a single post, and I really feel out of place in this of all threads!

This thread should tell you everything you need to know about the Husky - it was the only one operated by the RAF (alongside the more usual UAS/AEF Bulldogs and Chipmunks): http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/467622-beagle-husky-xw635-ex-5-aef-where-she-now.html

My first ever flight was in this aircraft in 1985/86, and once we were up I was handed control ("You have control", "I have control, Sir") and given a heading to fly us to Duxford. The two guys in the back seat were not amused at this point, knowing it was my first time at the controls of an aircraft! As we approached Duxford our pilot took over for a low level pass along the museum flight line before taking her back up and handing back to me to turn her round and take her back to Marshalls, where he landed her. Pilot may well have been Jonny Blackmore (he definitely flew me in the Chipmunks) who we have always referred to as "W/C Blackmore" although I have no recollection of whether that was his actual rank!

All my other flights (4 or 5 of approx. 30m duration - sadly my 'logbook' is missing in action) were in Chipmunks and usually involved some flying about under instruction or aerobatics, sometimes in the vicinity of my parents house :) We were encouraged to have hands on stick and feet on rudder pedals during the aerobatics (and then being complemented on "having flown that last loop rather well" or similar - although impossible to know how far off the controls the pilot's hands/feet were!). Proud to say I never needed the paper bag, but did experience grey-out during some of the aerobatics.

My school was in Cambridge and we would cycle to Marshalls Airport after lunch on the appointed days. After the classic AEF briefing video (how to open Chipmunk canopy and bale out - the infamous "Jump, Johnny, Jump" video), we would then be kitted out with headsets/helmets and parachute - an interesting experience as you were strapped in to it whilst sat on a chair and the straps pulled so tight that you had to walk to the aircraft, climb up on the wing and finally in to the cockpit whilst seemingly bent almost double.

And that, I'm sad to say, is the entirety of my aviation experience (other than pax in airliners) spread over 1985/6/7. But I've never forgotten it, and still occasionally reminisce about it with one of my schoolmates who was also in the RAF section. We could never understand why anyone would choose the Army (lots of yomping around with heavy kit) or Navy (mucking about in a small dinghy on a large pond) sections, when we got to fly for real in the RAF section.

Happy days, but very off-topic now for this thread...

BigDotStu

2nd Jan 2016, 18:10

Hi Danny,

Have now done some homework, and although Marshalls trained order of 20,000 aircrew through the war (including 600-700 pilots prior to BoB), it was their 'Ab Initio' Instructor Training Scheme which was innovative and subsequently adopted by the RAF - as per this quote:

"Sir Arthur Marshall actually invoked a scheme to train instructors from scratch. The usual route was for senior pilots in the RAF to progress to become instructors regardless of their enthusiasm or aptitude for that task. Marshall decided to take trainees on from scratch - if they were good pilots and had the aptitude he'd teach them to become instructors.

"In 1941, his 'Ab Initio' Flying Instructor Scheme was adopted universally by the RAF and it still exists to this day, known as the 'Creamy' Flying Instructor Scheme.

"Air Marshall Sir John Day commented in recent years that had the Marshall scheme been introduced at the very beginning of the war, there would have been no shortage of pilots for the Battle of Britain."

They received their first Tiger Moths in 1938 and they've been teaching people to fly in them ever since (there are still two flying out of Marshalls, and you can still train for your PPL in them - might be a fun way to resume my aviating, one day).

So there you go - and with that I'll return to lurking in a corner of the crew room, mug of tea in hand, listening to the illustrious senior members with real tales to tell...

Xercules

2nd Jan 2016, 20:06

Danny,

Our superiority over the Germans at warfare was explained by a German exchange officer at Lyneham many years ago now.

During a TACEVAL(for the uninitiated, Tactical Evaluation or practice bleeding pretending that WWIII had been declared), said EO watched the inevitable chaos for a while and then remarked (needs a German accent for full effect) "Now I know how you won the War, you practise chaos!"

After the Transall crashed in Crete somebody told him "You never did do very well in Crete." He agreed but (again accent needed) " You are right but, tell you what, we'll take you on the best of 5!"

Warmtoast

2nd Jan 2016, 20:11

BigDotStu

...we would then be kitted out with headsets/helmets and parachute - an interesting experience as you were strapped in to it whilst sat on a chair and the straps pulled so tight that you had to walk to the aircraft, climb up on the wing and finally in to the cockpit whilst seemingly bent almost double.
Grandson did his first AEF flight in a Grob Tutor at Benson a couple of weeks ago. I believe the parachutes are more manageable now, but I'm no expert. He still needed the riser cushion to get him up to the right height.
Photos taken on his big day below:

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/IMG_3273_zpskffchvqb.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/IMG_3274%20adjusted_zpsgvya1mik.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/IMG_3278_zpscf3khjkc.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/IMG_3279_zps3bpiiii7.jpg

BigDotStu

2nd Jan 2016, 21:13

Grandson did his first AEF flight in a Grob Tutor at Benson a couple of weeks ago. I believe the parachutes are more manageable now, but I'm no expert. He still needed the riser cushion to get him up to the right height.

Hope he enjoyed it - looks much more civilised now! Regretfully I have no photos of my AEF flights, nor even of me in my cadet uniform. :(

Danny42C

2nd Jan 2016, 23:31

BigDotStu (your #8022),
...Happy days, but very off-topic now for this thread...
Not so, Sir. As you will have noticed as you have ploughed through it, our Moderators allow us enormous latitude, always provided the spirit of the Thread is maintained.
...and the straps pulled so tight that you had to walk to the aircraft, climb up on the wing and finally in to the cockpit whilst seemingly bent almost double...
Uncomfortable, admittedly, but I'm told (never having had occasion to try it) that your chances of having any (or more) progeny would be minimal if you didn't have 'em tight and had to hit the silk. (It is with this in mind, I understand, that the part of Peter Pan is always played by the Principal Boy).

airborne artist (your #2 on BEAGLE HUSKY - XW635 - Ex-5 AEF -Where is she now),

Thanks for the pic; the Beagle Husky was a new one on me, but on checking it, seems to be just a big Piper Cub. Looks nice to fly, should be very stable.

Danny.

Danny42C

3rd Jan 2016, 00:56

BigDotStu (your #8023),

Googling "Sir Arthur Marshall 'Creamy' Flying Instructor Scheme", gives us:

(From D.Tel. Obituary)
...At the same time he devised a revolutionary procedure for the rapid training of pilots and their flying instructors; during the Second World War the Marshall Flying Schools trained more than 20,000 pilots and instructors for the RAF, and its methods continue to be used by the RAF to this day...

and:

Speaking to BBC Radio Cambridgeshire's Graham Hughes, Terry Holloway, Group Support Executive for Marshall of Cambridge, explains the impact of the flying school on the Second World War.
..."Sir Arthur Marshall actually invoked a scheme to train instructors from scratch. The usual route was for senior pilots in the RAF to progress to become instructors regardless of their enthusiasm or aptitude for that task. Marshall decided to take trainees on from scratch - if they were good pilots and had the aptitude he'd teach them to become instructors.
"In 1941, his 'Ab Initio' Flying Instructor Scheme was adopted universally by the RAF and it still exists to this day, known as the 'Creamy' Flying Instructor Scheme."
Air Marshall [sic] Sir John Day commented in recent years that had the Marshall scheme been introduced at the very beginning of the war, there would have been no shortage of pilots for the Battle of Britain...

The policy of "Creaming Off" Instructors by selection from Wings graduates was in force in the USAAC when I trained there Sep'41 to Feb'42. Seems the RAF started at the same time. It is obvious (now) that the quickest way to mass-produce pilots is to use your top graduates as "seed corn", at the cost of a delay in getting them into operational service. But (then), the idea seemed to have been to have a cadre of specialised Flying Instructors # who were permanently on that job.

Note # EDIT: When writing this, a misty memory of a poem in "Punch" came back to me. Isn't Google wonderful ? - found it, tried to copy it, wouldn't play, so see for yourselves:

The Flying Instructor's Lament - Aircrew Remembered
aircrewremembered.com/flying-instructors-lament-owen-chave.html

But of course, what we're talking about here is the actual content of the flying instruction, delivered by whomsoever, so:

Google>Gosport System of Flying Training in RFC First World War flying training - Taking Flight - Royal Air ...www.rafmuseum.org.uk/...flight/.../first-world-war-flying-training.aspx>
...Perhaps the most important development was the adoption of Major Robert Smith-Barry's 'Gosport System' of training, which gave students the confidence to fly their aircraft to the limit. These changes helped the RFC to turn out large numbers of capable combat pilots quickly while reducing the number of accidents.

When the Royal Air Force (RAF) was formed in April 1918, it inherited over 100 training squadrons and 30 specialist schools; units that would later boast more than 7,000 aircraft. By the Armistice in November, pilots were receiving instruction in all aspects of air fighting on an eleven-month course which included an average of 50 hours' solo flying. From a single flying school in 1914, the RAF's training organization had, in four years, grown to become the largest and most effective in the world...
It is interesting that a ballpark time for taking a lad off the street and training him to Wings standard in WWII seems still to have been 12 mos (my impression - I stand to be corrected). The "Gosport System" is with us yet AFAIK.

EDIT:...I'll return to lurking in a corner of the crew room, mug of tea in hand...
Teabar in corner of crewroom, 2d in the jar, please (real currency - post-1972 Toytown money not acceptable)

Danny.

PS: Warmtoast,

Wonderful pics of the sprog ! Clearly you're bringing him up right - a real chip off the old block (or should I say a crumb off the old slice ?) :ok: D.

Danny42C

3rd Jan 2016, 01:21

Walter (my #8021),

I should have added that, having wasted all the time spent in getting me up to speed on the Spitfire, the RAF then reverted to type, and checked me out on the VV (in which I was going to war) on the basis of 20 mins in the back seat (which had rudimentary controls), and then: "It's all yours now, mate".

But my Boss on 110 could not object, for nobody knew anything about them or what to do with them, so I was able to chalk up 37 hours of trial and error before throwing bombs about for real.

As ever, Sod rules................:D

Danny.

Danny42C

3rd Jan 2016, 01:59

Geriaviator (your #8001),

It's been three days now since:
...with a sickening thump I struck the cable...

.......................:eek::eek::eek:

PLEASE !!!.....what happened next ??

(Does your #8019 give us a clue ?)

Danny.

Danny42C

3rd Jan 2016, 07:21

Chugalug and GlobalNav,

My #8013 (Item 4) refers, seems we do not have to worry unduly about Gila Monsters (Wiki), as they only live in the SW of the US and northern Mexico. That said, they can keep them as they appear to be an unprepossessing animal which I would not like as a pet. :ooh:

What the writer saw in N. Burma would not be one of those...... but heat and high humidity do strange things to a man, and after a while you tend to see things which are not there. Perhaps some other form of large lizard ?

Danny.

Fixed Cross

3rd Jan 2016, 07:27

As one of those who had the misfortune to be numbered among the first-tour instructor fraternity (in the 60s) I can assure you that we were more likely to be refered to as "scummed off". Our reward was usually a posting to the aircraft of our choice - it actually came about sometimes!

Danny42C

3rd Jan 2016, 08:00

Fixed Cross,

Have a look at my #8028, Note # EDIT: for a wartime view of a Flying Instructor's life (no, I was never one myself).

Danny42C.

Geriaviator

3rd Jan 2016, 08:23

Danny,
Re your 3am post: Patience, we kids can't keep up with your current 24hr shifts! More today, I have been working on some pics for future posts which are worth waiting for. As you said, this man was a poet. -- G

Danny42C

3rd Jan 2016, 08:54

Geriaviator,

Will possess my soul in patience ! Meanwhile came across this pic of a Piper Cub panel, here's the little tube we were talking about a while back (or one like it):
http://www.lostinoscarhotel.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/IMG_0131.jpg (https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=0ahUKEwjh86P4q43KAhXFwBQKHYBUAasQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lostinoscarhotel.com%2Fairplane%2F&psig=AFQjCNFyB3c297X1KTY-BZvgYys6gsJVKQ&ust=1451900134558851)

Danny.

Chugalug2

3rd Jan 2016, 10:43

Danny:-
Gila Monsters...they can keep them as they appear to be an unprepossessing animal which I would not like as a pet. :ooh:Now now, Danny. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I've no doubt someone somewhere has adopted one. Think of Marge (née Bouvier) Simpson's older sister's beloved Jub-Jub. Truly a friend and comfort in an uncaring world.

As you say, the ex-CBI Roundup is a gold mine for information of an often overlooked WWII theatre. If Burma was forgotten, then what about China? The article "Returns from Land of Missing" by Harry Zinder, about the forced landing of his B-29 in (just) Free China following a raid on Japan, is witness to the extreme range of these missions, when engine failure en-route often meant no RTB. The Japanese Air Force obliged in destroying the abandoned aircraft, saving the crew from doing so, who were speedily bussed to catch a B-25 home.

The Husky strikes me as having more in common with an Auster than a Piper Cub, the panel of which could never be described as "cluttered"!

Warmtoast, how warming (see what I did there?) to see those wonderful pics of your grandson, reminding us all of how we started out as wannabe pilots. Good luck to him if he too has got the bug!

pulse1

3rd Jan 2016, 11:03

The Husky strikes me as having more in common with an Auster than a Piper Cub

The Husky was in fact the last and most powerful version of the Auster. As a young lad in the mid 50's, one of the highlights of my year was watching Ranald Porteus, Auster's Test Pilot, carrying out amazing displays of "crazy" flying as he hopped from one wheel to the other in the Husky at the Farnborough Air Show. The only American thing in the Husky was the 180 hp Lycoming engine.

Geriaviator

3rd Jan 2016, 11:04

A battle to the death with the German flak crews
Post no. 19 from the memoirs of Tempest pilot Flt Lt Jack Stafford, DFC, RNZAF

MY MAIN memory is of the other aircraft streaking away from me and my Tempest hanging in the air almost stalled. She shuddered and as I stuck the nose down I noticed that the airspeed had fallen to around 170mph, well down from the 400 mph we had been doing. I was almost at the stall when I got the nose down and she recovered just in time to lift, and was almost on the ground before she regained flying speed.

Bev and Bill were several miles ahead of me, such was my loss of speed, and were attacking a train which included several flak cars. As I stumbled up, the Tempests were well on their way with the flak following them. I gave the flak cars a couple of long bursts and I also plastered the loco. The gunners had their backs to me and were firing madly at Bev and Bill so I was able to upset the plans of some of them for that evening and many to follow.

My speed had not really built up so the flak gave me a hard time as I flew low over them. They had just me to shoot at and really wanted to get the man who had given them such a pasting. I heard hits on my aircraft and she shuddered, almost staggering in the air. I caught up to the others as we approached a town which met us with a violent barrage of flak.

My only chance of survival was to be low, low, low. I was just clear of the ground, firing my cannons at the flashes from their guns as they poured it at us. As we came to the town I raised one wing and I skidded down the street between buildings. Billy lifted up to clear a building on my left, we were only meters apart, and I could see light flak pouring into the underside of his fuselage. His aircraft was wobbling and as we left the town he was forward in his seat and getting lower towards the ground.

I flew beside him screaming at him to pull up, but his head kept falling forward and lifting again as he struggled to see and to control the crippled plane. I was devastated, I yelled and cursed the Hun as I watched him finally slump forward and his aircraft dropped lower, still being struck by the following flak. He hit the ground, skipped like a stone and hit again, exploding into a great orange ball, the colour exaggerated by the misty low cloud. I felt so sick I could hardly hold my head up.

At that point I took a cannon shell from behind which deadened the radio and filled the cockpit with smoke. I could smell the explosive while wearing an oxygen mask. Bev, who had been a mile or so out to port from us, closed up on me and I climbed into the cloud, finally breaking through above it. Bev kept trying to formate on me expecting me to lead but I wanted him to get a vector home and kept pointing to my earphones. Finally he got the message and turned slightly, indicating that he was in contact with control. We droned on just on top of the cloud ready to drop into it if attacked by German fighters. I was anxiously checking the instruments, for the engine had low oil pressure and a high temperature, but apart from being very noisy everything seemed to function.http://s20.postimg.org/70nmx6o19/Williams_SS_grave.jpg

Stanwell

3rd Jan 2016, 11:08

Re the Beagle Husky, I'm with you, chugalug.
The Husky was simply a development of the 1945 era Auster Autocrat - the major difference being the Lycoming 0-320.

p.s. Oops, post crossed with that of pulse1.

olympus

3rd Jan 2016, 11:40

The Flying Instructor's Lament - Aircrew Remembered
aircrewremembered.com/flying-instructors-lament-owen-chave.html

15 Squadron Stirling I BF448 LS-T Fl/Lt. Chave (http://www.aircrewremembered.com/chave-owen.html)

Fl/Lt O C Chave also gets a mention in in Denis Peto-Shepherd's book 'The Devil Take The Hindmost' which is an account of the author's wartime RAF service from his initial enlistment, through his training (ITW at Torquay and Babbacombe-various hotels are mentioned!) to become a 'creamed-off' flying instructor before eventually, towards the end of the war, making it to an operational bomber squadron. He and Chave served together at one point.

'The Devil Take The Hindmost' is packed full of the sort of minutiae that readers of this thread thrive on (and a lot about his travails at a minor public school, of which I could have done with less) and I highly recommend it.

BigDotStu

3rd Jan 2016, 12:20

the Beagle Husky was a new one on me, but on checking it, seems to be just a big Piper Cub. Looks nice to fly, should be very stable.

I certainly had no problems with some gentle turns and keeping mostly S&L to Duxford and back. Sometimes wish I had pursued matters back then - probably should have hooked up with UAS when at university, but inexplicably this never occurred to me at the time, despite sharing a flat with a fellow engineering student who had already obtained her PPL before uni.

I hadn't realised that there was an ITW at Cambridge in university/college buildings and accommodation during the war, presumably tied with 22 E(R)FTS run by Marshalls at Cambridge (who I note also ran 25ERFTS at Kidlington, thus providing UAS facilities for Oxford as well as Cambridge, as well as 4FIS at Cambridge and another EFTS down in Wiltshire). Learned a lot of local wartime history in the last 24 hours whilst chasing around on Google.

Teabar in corner of crewroom, 2d in the jar, please

Of course ;)

UWAS

3rd Jan 2016, 13:33

It gives me great pleasure to offer this to Danny 42C and all of you as I pickup on Danny's #8028. I hope I do not stray too far from the thread, but all who flew in WW2 and me later in my Chipmunk owe our lives to RSB, (no hyphens in his name) although we may not know it.

He revolutionised flying training, which before his time had concentrated on avoiding the manoeuvres, such as spinning, stall turns etc which were the cause of many accidents. Instead he taught how to do these things so you could get out of trouble. Before I knew this was his approach, when I was teaching in industry, I taught people how to tackle the most difficult problems with simple methodologies, so they had less fear of the unknown. I was too late RSB beat me to it.

The point of all this is to let you know there is a superb biography of RSB which is sometimes available via the South American watercourse or Abebooks called Pioneer Pilot: The Great Smith Barry who taught the world how to fly by F D Tredrey pub.Peter Davies Ltd London 1976. If you want to read about an exceptional pilot in a cracking book written with the assistance of his friends, second wife and former pupils, packed with anecdotes of his flying exploits, this is the one. He also seemed to have a history of deliberately burning his problems, (paperwork, office and an experimental SPAD), fell out with Trenchard, invented the Gosport tube (did you use one Danny?) and reduced pilot deaths by tens of percent. Thank you Bobbie.

harrym

3rd Jan 2016, 17:16

Danny from your #8029 it seems we were on the same squadron, though not at the same time; as previously recorded here, I joined it overnight when my 'old' unit 96 Sqdn was summarily re-numbered 110 in spring 1946.

I have never figured out RAF policy as to the apparently random extinction and re-creation of squadron titles (as opposed to the actual setting up or disbandment of functioning units), but suspect it is mainly driven by a high-level policy of keeping alive those numbers with either a long and auspicious history or perhaps associated with an exceptionally outstanding event i.e. 617 Sqdn - am I right?

From the account of your first solo in a VV, it seems we share the same experience of nil previous dual on type - but that is another topic!

Happy New Year-

Harry

Fareastdriver

3rd Jan 2016, 20:19

110 Sqn. That makes three of us.

Danny42C

4th Jan 2016, 01:42

harrym (your #8043),

You are right. I think the thing was/is: we have so much invested in this number, its name and traditions, all the Mess Silver, its Crest approved and initialled by the Sovereign, its colours (if any) and all the two, three and four (?) stars in post and retired who ever served on it rooting for it, that they will pin it on anything rather than scrap it. Even then it will be put in mothballs until reincarnation in the next WW.
...From the account of your first solo in a VV, it seems we share the same experience of nil previous dual on type - but that is another topic!...
In our far-off times the idea was, once you got your wings, you were now a Pilot, ergo you could fly anything which came along (much as, once you get your licence, you can drive any car). This was true in respect of single-engine things, no one wanted a dual Hurricane or a Mustang or a Spitfire, you just jumped in and took it away (the Mk.IX(T) Spit is an aberration, nobody would want it as a trainer in WWII - or ever).

When it came to twos and fours, they had to concede that it might be a good idea for the new lad to have someone with him on his first few trips (and they mostly had two seats, which was handy). :ok:

Danny.

Danny42C

4th Jan 2016, 02:31

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/013A680C_5056_A318_A88CAF358A0EE423.gif

Fareastdriver,

Yes quite a number of PPRuNers have served under the banner of that famous feline (at various times, for it has had many reincarnations, Wiki knows all about it).

Bit of a shame that the suffix: "Hyderabad" seems to have been taken off the wording; rather ungrateful as the Nizam of that princely State coughed up for a whole squadron of aircraft for the RFC in WWI, and did the same for the RAF in WWII (I believe). Any offers of a squadron of F-35s from our business community (BAE ?). Thought not.

But then, I suppose, the Princely States have been airbrushed out of history, for the Governments of India and Pakistan are still slightly touchy about the British Raj (which at its height only directly governed 60% of the subcontinent: the remaining 40% being ruled indirectly through the Rajahs and Maharajahs). The Nizam of Hyderabad (reputedly the richest man in the world) was in the Premier League of these.

Danny.

"Far-called our navies melt away—
On dune and headland sinks the fire—
Lo, all our pomp of yesterday
Is one with Nineveh and Tyre!
Judge of the Nations, spare us yet,
Lest we forget—lest we forget!"
(Kipling: Recessional)

Danny42C

4th Jan 2016, 02:55

Geriaviator (your #8038),
...We droned on just on top of the cloud ready to drop into it if attacked by German fighters. I was anxiously checking the instruments, for the engine had low oil pressure and a high temperature, but apart from being very noisy everything seemed to function...
So Jack Stafford lives to fight another day ! The Tempest must have been a tough old bird to survive collision with a Grid cable (luckily it didn't leave him dragging a hundred yards of the stuff behind him !) This is a fantastic story. It would be nice to know what damage his aircraft had suffered, but perhaps that will be in the next episode.

Nice, sad little story about Bill Williams.

Danny.

Fareastdriver

4th Jan 2016, 10:07

Bit of a shame that the suffix: "Hyderabad" seems to have been taken off the wording;

I'm speechless! Some politically correct w****r at MOD has done that. I was on 110 Sqn to the last day 12th February 1971, at Royal Air Force, Changi and the official wooden shield had Hyderabad written on it. The Proof? my one.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/P_20160104_103839_HDR_zpsm0uchm7q.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fareastdriver/media/P_20160104_103839_HDR_zpsm0uchm7q.jpg.html)

Danny42C

4th Jan 2016, 10:31

Fareastdriver,

Sign of the times, FED, I'm afraid. At least, they can't worry me much longer ! But I'm sorry for you youngsters, for things are going to get much worse before they get better.

À propos of nothing at all, a cat's erect tail is a sign of welcome and happiness, it seems,

Cheers, Danny.

Fantome

4th Jan 2016, 11:23

a very happy new year Danny . . . we all want you to see in as many more as you can manage . .. . . . so keep taking the pills ...

a cat's erect tail is a sign of welcome and happiness,

It used to be said that a tom when about to spray had his mast at the vertical and his flag at the ready at the base.

and on the subject of the country not being in the very best of hands and other ills of society . .. . was it Oscar who said . . . Youth is wasted on the young?

CoffmanStarter

4th Jan 2016, 12:27

Danny, Fareastdriver ...

I've also seen some crests of 152 Squadron RAF with 'Hyderabad' airbrushed out ... shame on those responsible I say.

http://www.152hyderabad.co.uk/assets/images/New_Squadron_site_2_Badge.png

Coff.

PS. F/L R M D Hall DFC (ex 152 Squadron BoB) was a good friend ... sadly no longer with us ... RIP Sam.

teeteringhead

4th Jan 2016, 13:18

Halley (Squadrons of the RAF) records a very large number of "Empire" Sqns in addition to those mentioned above. I'll try and not take up too much space .........

They were:

18 & 257 - Burma. 35, 79, 99, 234 & 264 - Madras Presidency. 44, 237 & 266 - Rhodesia. 46 - Uganda. 56 & 130 - Punjab. 65, 92, 127 & 149 - East India. 72 - Basutoland. 74 - Trinidad. 75 - New Zealand. 122 & 132 - Bombay.

124 - Baroda. 125 - Newfoundland. 129 - Mysore. 139 - Jamaica. 167, 183, 218 & 249 - Gold Coast. 82 & 87 - United Provinces (where they?). 88 & 114 - Hong Kong. 91 - Nigeria. 97 - Straits Settlements.

102 & 165 - Ceylon. 174 - Mauritius. 214 - Federated Malay States. 222 - Natal. 247 - Canadian (not just "Canada"). 245 - Northern Rhodesia. 250 - Sudan. 253 - Hyderabad State (not just "Hyderabad" like 110 and 152).

When I was first on 72 ('71 to '73) ISTR the "Basutoland" name still being on some (old-ish) badges and memorabilia, but not when I returned a few years later.......

Fareastdriver

4th Jan 2016, 14:15

Obviously the present day RAF is not to be reminded of it's colonial past when it and other Dominion and Colonial countries defended their freedom.

Pom Pax

4th Jan 2016, 15:24

United Provinces (where they?).

Union of South Africa, not the modern Republic of South Africa.

teeteringhead

4th Jan 2016, 15:36

Thank you Pom Pax - every day's a school day; even at my time of life! :ok:

pzu

4th Jan 2016, 15:46

United Provinces - unsure of S African link, but Wiki (Yes I Know) has this link

United Provinces, former state, India (http://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/world/united-provinces-former-state-india.html)

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

Petet

4th Jan 2016, 15:48

Whilst working on my History of No. 35 Squadron project my enquiring mind asked when and why the squadron ceased to be known as No. 35 (Madras Presidency) Squadron.

I haven't managed to answer that question, so if anyone does come up with the answer, please let me know.

Geriaviator

4th Jan 2016, 15:59

Yes, all par for the course I'm afraid. Editing Jack Stafford's memoirs has made me even more aware of the sacrifices made by New Zealand, who sent the very best of her young men from 1939-1945. The UK handsomely repaid them only 30 yrs later when we joined the Common Market and told Aussie and Kiwi alike to p--s off, you and your products aren't welcome now that we're friends with the Germans, the French, the Italians, the Spanish and even the Belgians, who will soon be buying our country anyway :sad:

Rant over before my blood pressure gets overboosted. For Danny and others following the Stafford story, this is the only sortie he described in detail as it clearly had a great effect on him. The Tempests of 122 Wing carried a heavy load in the last year of the war as only they had the range and performance for low-level warfare, and paid a terrible price for it. More tomorrow.

http://s20.postimg.org/u1vjid2ct/vierling.jpg

harrym

4th Jan 2016, 16:59

Geriaviator you are so right - have always considered it an utter disgrace that visitors from Oz or NZ need visas to enter a country that they or their forebears defended, the latter often at cost of their lives.

With all discredit to Ted Heath & his minions..........

harrym

teeteringhead

4th Jan 2016, 18:12

Editing Jack Stafford's memoirs has made me even more aware of the sacrifices made by New Zealand ISTR that NZ lost the highest number of men - as a proportion of adult population - than any other Allied country .....

Danny42C

4th Jan 2016, 21:42

Petet,

Even if they'd left "Madras" in, I suppose it would have to be "Chennai" now.

Danny.

Geriaviator

5th Jan 2016, 14:57

Nothing stays the same, folks, anyway the Government is planning to sell everything including the RAF to China. Until then, I see a commercial opportunity in the sponsored squadron:
84 (RENTOKIL) Sqn, SCORPIONES PUNGUNT (Scorpions sting)
617 (DYNOROD) Sqn, APRES MOI LE DELUGE (After me the flood)
6 (SPECSAVERS) Sqn, OCULI EXERCITUS (Eyes of the Army)

Aircraft, or the few of them we have left, will be painted in sponsor's livery. The scheme will finance a new Bureaucratic Wing for the Ministry of Defence.

Rosevidney1

5th Jan 2016, 17:29

We'll need even more Civil Servants then...........

Geriaviator

5th Jan 2016, 19:36

Did a dead colleague bring Jack home through the flak and the weather?

Post no. 20 from the memoirs of Tempest pilot Flt Lt Jack Stafford, DFC, RNZAF

AFTER SOME time Bev indicated a reduction in height and we dropped into the cloud gradually lowering through it in tight formation. We broke cloud about 1000ft and were met by a mass of flak, for they were waiting for us. Bev went onto his back and disappeared beneath me and I was almost blown upside down as a large hole appeared in my starboard wing close to my cannons. I pulled up into the cloud, with the flak all around me providing a most disconcerting scene, and flew south-west for some time, quite sure that I was the only one left. Again I broke cloud to try and locate my position and saw an airstrip with a windsock but no sign of any aircraft or transport. I thought it might have been recently captured by the Allies and could be in south-eastern Holland.

My engine was giving trouble, running rougher than ever and the temperature was alarming. I thought I should try to put it down and approached the airfield. I felt I must be in southern Holland by now and I did a cautious circuit, but as I was on the downwind leg I became apprehensive. Something didn't look right and when I opened up and started to climb away I was again subjected to some very unpleasant flak, mighty close. I was still in enemy country, so I remained in the cloud continuing SW but was starting to doubt the compass and everything else. Finally the motor started to miss and smelled dangerously hot, with oil pressure right down and vibrations coming through the stick and rudder pedals.

The cloud had lowered even more and I was just skimming along its base looking at the dark landscape beneath. I saw a village and flew towards it, deciding that if I were in the British-American zone, transport would be there and if Allied, it would be easily identified. I passed over the village very low and thank God, I saw big white stars on the tops of several trucks, with a large ploughed field suitable for a belly landing.

As I turned and lined up for the approach I was amazed to see recall rockets piercing the mist in the distance, obviously from an airfield. My chances of survival would be better there, with a 'fire truck and meat wagon.' I made for it, nursing that faithful old kite through the gathering gloom. As the strip came into sight I couldn't believe it was Volkel, the strip I had left to go on this show! I approached without any circuit, dropped my wheels, got the green lights, dropped the flaps, and found no flaps. That didn't matter at Volkel, with the length of runway on this ex-Luftwaffe airfield I had plenty of room. I glided over the perimeter track and touched down on the airfield I had despaired of ever seeing again. Home, safe, alive, no more flak until tomorrow, I could hardly believe it.

In the mess I was congratulated, even by our Kiwi Group Captain Pat Jameson, on my great navigational feat in that weather, with no radio and a badly damaged aircraft. I said nothing but wondered how in hell I had get home, for I had had no idea where I was. Was some unknown instinct guiding me the 70 miles from that flak-torn little town? Was it perhaps the soul of Billy Williams in the cockpit with me? Did we come home together?

Bev Hall had survived to arrive back long before me with an aircraft as battered as mine. Five days later we were together, just the two of us, high in that cold and merciless German sky when he was shot down and killed by a Focke-Wulf 190.

http://s20.postimg.org/nrwlkdbfx/bevan_hall.jpg

Danny42C

5th Jan 2016, 23:29

Geriaviator (Jack Stafford's Memoir Post 20),
...Was some unknown instinct guiding me the 70 miles from that flak-torn little town?...
Strange things happened in war, which were difficult to brush off as coincidences. I offer a much less dramatic case of my own in Burma (Post p.135 #2692, block lettering mine):
....I must have run a good 40 miles north of target with him sitting on my tail, so I had to guess a rough heading for base. Keeping climb power on the engine, I steamed along over the endless mountain ridges, feeling very lonely and insignificant in a very wide world.

Half an hour later, I spotted five dots on the horizon, dead ahead. It was the rest of the formation, dawdling along to let me catch up, and wondering where I'd got to. And I'd run straight up behind them! Stew was amazed (so was I) and bored the Sgts. Mess rigid when we got back, bragging about the navigational genius he'd got for a pilot (I didn't disillusion him!)..
Makes you think !

Danny.

Chugalug2

6th Jan 2016, 09:29

The art of good navigation is, as any navigator would confirm, never being lost but merely temporarily uncertain of one's position. I suspect that Jack Stafford was never truly lost but, thanks to his inbuilt sense of spatial orientation, had always been on the right track for Volkel, merely uncertain of its exact location.

He had though that most essential ingredient of pilot self preservation, luck! The recall rockets were fired at exactly the right moment, otherwise he would have been forced-landing flapless into a ploughed field. The greatest luck though was flying this exceptionally tough old war horse of an aircraft, that had suffered a power wire strike, multiple hits from A/A, and still landed him safely back at base! Not much mention of this in this excerpt, but if he hadn't mentally said his thank-you's to Sir Sidney Camm and his team for building this flying tank then I would respectfully suggest that he be guilty of base ingratitude.

Thank you Geriaviator, your timing for dramatic suspense was impeccable. If you haven't used it professionally before, you might consider it for the future!

One man's day at work in the dangerous low skies of the liberation of Europe. Humbling!

GlobalNav

6th Jan 2016, 18:25

As promised in an earlier post, here are some photos related to my father's USAAF WWII service in India.
http://www.pprune.org/members/417354-globalnav-albums-india-picture73-souvenir-blade-scabbard-india.jpg
This is unlike bladed weapons previously pictured by Danny and others. Almost reminds me of a bayonet blade, but obviously hand-made, as of course is its case (scabbard?).

Back of my father's bracelet, obviously a trinket from Ranikhet where he probably spent a short period in the rest camp. the front has his name and the CBI shield.

http://www.pprune.org/members/417354-globalnav-albums-india-picture75-back-bracelet-ranikhet.jpg

My father, as previously mentioned, arrived by ship in Bombay in 1943, spent time in Karachi, Agra, somewhere near Calcutta and Burma. Precise locations and units I have no data.

Wish I knew exactly which outfits he assigned to, but from unit research suspect the 80th Fighter Group which was associated with many of the same locations.

Chugalug2

6th Jan 2016, 19:30

Global Nav, you've had the same infuriating result as I and many others had at our first attempt to post a picture. The secret, as in so much in life, is to persevere. When logged in you can edit your own posts by hovering over them with your mouse and clicking the edit prompt, as I see that you have already tried. I assume that you now have your pics posted in an appropriate web site. Each has its own unique address there which you post into the insert image field box on PPRuNe. You need to check that this hasn't double entered the http.. (http://www..). etc start of the address ( I always delete that from the box before pasting in the full picture address).

You can try this as many times as you wish, eventually it will work and you will be rewarded by the picture appearing in your post (not too large though or it will swamp Danny's laptop!). As with everything in this electronic world, keep trying. If at first you don't succeed...

Good luck!

Chug

GlobalNav

6th Jan 2016, 19:36

Thank you, Chug,

The pictures show up for me in the post, but it sounds like they do not for you. Do I understand correctly?

Chugalug2

6th Jan 2016, 22:26

Oh, that is strange! No pics showing here, although Bev Hall's pic posted by Geriaviator on the same page is. Unless others can see them, I can only suppose that they are only showing to you because they are already in your computer anyway. Try logging off, then back in?

The only way that others on the internet can see them is if PPRuNe displays them from the images' internet address at Photobucket, or wherever. You need to check if that is their image location (right click copy location with the mouse pointer on the image and then post it into your browser address window).

Good luck!

GlobalNav

6th Jan 2016, 22:34

Ugh! They are saved in an album in my profile, but were "private", which may have made them invisible to others. I just changed them to "public" in the hopes that makes them visible in my post. We'll see. Flying seems so much simpler.

Stanwell

6th Jan 2016, 22:57

Yup!
Got them now, GN. :ok:

Xercules

7th Jan 2016, 09:06

Danny (or anybody else who has the knowledge),

Please can you tell me what identity checks were carried out on individuals when joining up during the war? Did they rely solely on your having an identity card? And if that was the case what checks were there of identity claims for the 1939 registration?

I ask because we have been researching family history and there is a lot of confusion with my mother-in-law's past. She appears to have been born with one surname and then 7 years later her "mother" married. My mil joined thevWAAF in about 1943/4 as a parachute packer then PTI and then married in 1947 under the surname of her "adoptive father" so presumably she had been in the WAAF with that surname but there is no apparent record of the change so was it legal?

Unfortunately, now at 93 she is unable to answer any questions on the subject and we are left researching apparently very incomplete records. Any background help might assist in clearing some of the questions. However, to date it has seemed seemed that every answer merely creates even more questions.

In advance, thank you for anything you remember.

Chugalug2

7th Jan 2016, 10:54

Bingo! Well done GN. I hope that you feel it was worth all the effort and that future posting of images will be a doddle now. I also hope that it will encourage others with unique images from WWII to post them as well.

PPRuNe doesn't exactly encourage too many images (something to do with bandwidth) but for this very special thread I hope that we can expect the continuing benevolent discretion that the mods have always favoured us with.

Just remember 850 x 850 pixels max. :ok:

http://www.pprune.org/spectators-balcony-spotters-corner/203481-image-posting-pprune-guide.html

Danny42C

7th Jan 2016, 13:29

Xercules,

My general remembrance is that those were honest and trusting days, in which officialdom accepted that you were who you said you were (I think National Registration Identity Cards [I was NZVM 79 3] were dished out just on the householder's say-so - but of course there would be the Registers of Electors to check against). IIRC, they took my Card off me when I enlisted, and gave me a F.1250. Google/Wiki has a fair bit on the subject.

Your particular case sounds a bit complicated (if you don't mind my saying so) and I haven't a clue how they would sort that one out !

Danny.

Geriaviator

7th Jan 2016, 14:43

Counting the cost as the war comes to an end
Post no. 21 from the memoirs of Tempest pilot Flt Lt Jack Stafford, DFC, RNZAF

The three previous posts relating to the Munster Rhubarb are Jack Stafford's only reference to his hundreds of sorties, and he was clearly affected by the loss of his friends. His comment: “Home, safe, alive, no more flak until tomorrow, I could hardly believe it” gives an idea of the stress he and his comrades must have been under, as his fellow Tempest pilot Pierre Clostermann also refers to the flak as his greatest problem in so many ground attacks.

A few days later, on Christmas Day 1944, Jack and Flying Officer Bremner were credited with the squadron's first confirmed Me262 jet fighter. The jet was turning towards them when Jack opened fire, sending pieces flying off one engine. It then turned away, showing remarkable speed on one engine, but the Tempests kept pace and shot it down. Jack was awarded the DFC, promoted to flight lieutenant in February 1945 and made flight commander of A Flight. On April 12 he shot down an Fw190D-9 east of Ludwigslust, his last of the war.

On May 15, less than a fortnight after the end of the European war, he was posted from Volkel to 80 Sqn at Fassberg, the airfield close to Munster which he had planned to attack on his ill-fated Rhubarb a few months before. Jack's final tally was two confirmed kills, three shared and eight V-1 flying bombs destroyed.

http://s20.postimg.org/dfvw8vm0d/gliderhangar.jpg
THE WAR had been over for some little time, though the evidence of battle remained. Bailey bridges spanned the many streams and rivers, while the remnants of centuries-old bridges lay nearby in ruins. Towns were just rubble, a few walls still stood here and there but many areas were virtually obliterated. The testimony to all the violence and destruction of war was there for all to see.

Our squadron, on the other hand, was housed in comparative luxury on the ex-Luftwaffe base at Fassberg, which for some reason had not been properly bombed. Its beautiful mess and billets made a great change from the privations of Holland and the canvas walls of other German airfields we had occupied. Our job would hardly have been considered recreational flying by most people, but once the shooting stopped we flew and fought each other in practice dogfights, enjoying the wonderful Tempest as a sport. Yet for all its many virtues, the Tempest glided like a brick.

The antithesis to our outstanding and massive fighter sat in the undamaged hangars of our new base. Gliders and sailplanes such as I had never seen sat on their skids, or little trolleys, waiting to be appreciated and loved. There were large ones, small ones, some with an unbelievable wingspan, others by comparison looking dumpy. The first RAF personnel to occupy this site obtained help from captured Luftwaffe ground staff to restore the gliders to serviceability and our own ground crew were more than competent to maintain these beautiful sailplanes. My interest quickened as I walked past them for several days, I was increasingly taken by their beauty and frailty. The Tempest was anything but frail and the contrast attracted me.

A glider brings the problem of getting it into the air so it can glide. We found a small frame-and-wing primary glider which could get airborne behind a jeep as we tore round the perimeter track. This was great fun but the glider did not survive the rough treatment. However, the departing Germans had thoughtfully provided us with a small Focke-Wulf Fw44 biplane with a Siemens radial engine. They called this beautiful little trainer Steiglitz (Goldfinch) and I loved to fly it. In another hangar we discovered a powerful high-wing monoplane, the Fw56 Stosser (Falcon) an advanced trainer with outstanding performance from its 260 bhp Argus V8 engine. We swiftly adapted both aircraft as glider tugs.

Danny42C

7th Jan 2016, 21:43

Geriaviator,
...The three previous posts relating to the Munster Rhubarb are Jack Stafford's only reference to his hundreds of sorties...
I adopted a similar policy here myself, describing one operational dive in great detail: this could then stand for every other dive I made, and it avoided continuous repetition. Not that his experiences in his many later fighter "sweeps" were merely repetitive - they would be packed with more excitement in a single memoir than in all of my sorties in Burma put together, but the "pattern" would probably be much the same in most cases.

Again it shows the sudden twists in fortune which were the lot of every serviceman in war (or in this case, immediately after the war's end). From life under canvas to the luxury of a well-built and well furnished Luftwaffe officers' Mess, with all the makings of a Gliding Club to hand, it made for a welcome "cherry on the cake" at the end.

The FW-44 looks very like (and would likely perform like) the Stearman, but the Fw-56 does not look like an "advanced" trainer to me yet it was so (Wiki). But Wiki says the translation of "Stösser" is "Goshawk", not "Falcon".

Danny.

Danny42C

7th Jan 2016, 22:33

GlobalNav (your #8067),
...This is unlike bladed weapons previously pictured by Danny and others. Almost reminds me of a bayonet blade, but obviously hand-made, as of course is its case (scabbard?)...
Off hand looks more like a medieval European poignard - perhaps the bazaar craftsmen had seen one and turned out an excellent copy. Note that:
...“A groove in a fighting knife or sword to allow for blood to flow from a wound so that the blade can be removed easier (a significant concern in close combat).” ...
(From: Google>The Blood Groove | The BS Historian
https://bshistorian.wordpress.com/2008/06/05/the-blood-groove

I think you have the equivalent of our "Antiques Roadshow" TV program over there ? This is one for their experts ! (I never saw anything like it in India/Burma).
...Back of my father's bracelet, obviously a trinket from Ranikhet where he probably spent a short period in the rest camp. the front has his name and the CBI shield...
Would also have his service number with his name, as a back-up identification for his "dog tags". Looks like Indian silver.

You've got the pictures sorted out, then ! :ok:

Danny.

Geriaviator

8th Jan 2016, 10:02

Danny

Editing the Stafford memoirs has been a great privilege and I have done my best to find if there were any more. In the course of this research I found that hundreds of aircrew still lie in the former East Germany, their names remembered on the Runnymede Memorial. Presumably a few charred remains and scraps of alloy would not have been noticed in this vast devastated area, while many aircraft would have buried themselves far down in soft ground.

The disastrous Munster sortie he describes in such detail is similar to many described in Pierre Clostermann's book The Big Show, which emphasises the major role played by the Tempests of 122 Wing and the stress of countless low-level attacks on heavily defended trains, transport and airfields. The change in Jack Stafford's writing is very noticeable as the war progressed and perhaps the loss of his friends inspired this detailed account. You'll be glad to know he rediscovers his joie de vol through the gliders … tomorrow.

The Fw44 is only TM size and must be delightful to fly with its 155hp engine compared to the Gipsy Major's 120 on a good day. A few are still flying. When launched in 1934 the Fw56 Stosser must have been hot stuff compared to the RAF's biplanes but the German dictionaries translate 'stosser' as 'shover' or 'pusher' in English.

Walter

We get worried when our senior staff go quiet for a while, we hope you're still working on your Beaufighter memoirs?

Warmtoast

9th Jan 2016, 10:46

Ode to the RAF Tiger Moth

Going through my copies of “BUKA” the station magazine of R.A.F. Thornhill, S. Rhodesia (July 1952), I came across this Ode to the R.A.F. Tiger Moth, which after 64-years seems as apt today as it was so long ago when Chipmunks had replaced Tiger Moths in the RATG. Apart from initials “L.C.R”, author is unknown.
Passed on for those who flew in, or trained on them so many years ago.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Thornhill/BUKA%20Cover%20July%201952_zpszitud3l9.jpg

BUKA is full of similar gems, including an article written by a NCO then at R.A.F. Thornhill (5 FTS) in 1952 recounting details of his first days of service on being posted to 5 FTS (R.A.F. Sealand) in 1929 (beats Danny by a mile!).

Ode to the RAF Tiger Moth
As published in BUKA July 1952

Farewell old Tiger, you’ve done your stuff,
For many a long year the going’s been rough;
They’ve beaten and battered you, year in and out,
But your value to training has ne’er been in doubt.

Farewell old Tiger, your days are now done,
Compared with all others you’ve had a long run;
You’ve been faithful and worthy, trusty and true,
And have trained many pilots, including “The Few”.

Farewell old stager, you’ve now been replaced
By a sleek little mono that suits modern taste;
But in your retirement you can quite safely say
You were “nulli secundus” during your day.

A place in posterity you’re certain to take
With other D.H.’s of earlier make;
In R.A.F. messes for decades to come
They will talk of you just as a faithful old chum.

So bow to the Chipmunk as you bid adieu,
And wish it the fame that has been won by you;
Your comparative qualities are open to moot,
So goodbye, old timer, and accept our salute.

L.C.R.

pzu

9th Jan 2016, 11:50

Just came across this YouTube piece which may be of interest

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyRCtc34NvA

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

Geriaviator

9th Jan 2016, 14:10

Peace at last, soaring high in the silent heavens

http://s20.postimg.org/cm6h1bm7h/fva10.jpg

I WALKED past those beautiful aircraft again and again, until I could resist them no longer. I picked one of the graceful sailplanes, and a friend towed me high into that calm and peaceful German summer sky. I cast off the tow and looked around for the airfield but I did not need to worry, for I wasn't going anywhere in a hurry. I seemed to hang motionless in the air.

I moved the stick forward and back, and my beautiful bird answered the command with flawless sensitivity. I gently touched the rudder, again the sweet acceptance of my merest suggestion. It was a fantasy in which I had limitless time to do everything I needed, as the response was definite but languid. I pulled back on the big wooden knob situated where a powered aircraft had a throttle, the airbrakes slid out from the wings and she slowed, seeming to stop. I moved it forwards and she gently advanced. It fascinated me, and the silence was in glorious contrast to the thunderous Sabre.

This was an aerial wonderland. I played with the glider like a child with a toy. I pulled the nose up and stalled, the soft hiss of the slipstream died away, and she gently dropped forward and glided again. I floated on and out over the Luneburg Heath, I encountered an updraught and like a glorious albatross she soared effortlessly for a hundred feet or more. Time passed in complete contentment as my altitude slowly decreased. In comfort I headed back to the airfield and made my approach. With plenty of height over the perimeter track, it was easy to coax her to a landing close to our takeoff point. I felt that I had truly experienced the freedom of the skies.

We were all caught up in the gliding craze. We taught many of the ground staff to fly and I don't know how many blissful hours I spent in the cockpits of those sailplanes, or the many hours flying the tug aircraft. Occasionally I flew up to Denmark where 486 Sqn, my old unit, was based. It was good to meet up with my fellow New Zealanders. For these trips I used another German acquisition, an Me108 four-seater, an exceptional little aircraft which I really loved to fly.

Some weeks later our squadron was posted to Denmark and to be honest, who would want to stay in the dark, unfriendly atmosphere of shattered Germany when the sun, the food and the social welcome of Denmark beckoned? It was, however, the end of the glider enlightenment, it was back to the mighty Tempest with all the attendant excitement of its great performance. The exhilaration of aerobatics, the violence and physical effort of our practice dogfights, were as competitive as ever but unlike real combat a mistake did not cost you your life.

Our attitudes were once again dominated by the demands of military flying, but for the rest of my life I would never forget the happy and peaceful hours I spent in those gliders.

smujsmith

9th Jan 2016, 19:12

Geriaviator,

Thanks for that superb post, as someone who has enjoyed flying gliders through my time in service, the descriptions are as good as I have read of the joy of flying an unpowered aircraft.

Smudge :ok:

Danny42C

9th Jan 2016, 20:19

Geriaviator and Smudge,

Amen to that ! I've done very little gliding, but still recall the wonderful peace and quiet of it - no engine noise, no vibration, just the hiss of the airflow - perfect !

Danny.

Danny42C

10th Jan 2016, 02:16

I've just come across this, and was impressed by what seems to be a reasonably accurate account of a very old, sad story (the AF447 in 2009). As one who never had an autopilot and hand-flew every minute of every hour, it made me go cold reading it. Worth a read if you have the time.
...Should Airplanes Be Flying Themselves? | Vanity Fair
Should Airplanes Be Flying Themselves? | Vanity Fair (http://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2014/10/air-france-flight-447-crash)
30 Sep 2014...

Danny.

Chugalug2

10th Jan 2016, 07:48

Danny, that accident has always worried me, though not because of autopilots but rather because of Air France, BEA (the French Air Accident Investigator), and DGAC (the French CAA) practice. When the article says:-

The clogging of that particular probe design was a known issue on certain Airbus models, and though it occurred only under rare high-altitude conditions and had never led to an accident, it was considered to be serious enough that Air France had decided to replace the probes with ones of an improved design It implies that this was down to Air France to counter. It was not, it was down to DGAC. It was a fundamental airworthiness problem that should have been resolved urgently (even your Vengeance would have been compromised if the pitot head or static vent was partially blocked and thus giving spurious airspeed readings!). It was not. This is not the first Air France accident that has blamed the pilots when the basic cause was lack of airworthiness (eg the A320 at Mulhouse in June 1988).

I don't know where this article got its facts from, but the general trend to concentrate on the two pilots rather than the Air Regulator is par for the course for BEA.

Modern aircraft are certainly complicated, whether in autopilot or not. I remember my first experiences of a glass cockpit were a real challenge. However, nothing really changes, you still have to be ahead of what is happening or you will merely follow it to its inevitable conclusion.

I notice that Bonin, the PF, is stated as having acquired almost 3000 hours on modern FBW (Airbus?) aircraft. I would hardly call that minimal. If he behaved in the erratic way stated, having taken control when the autopilot dropped out, I would suggest that is a comment on Air France pilot training whose product he was. Similarly a company, that merely keeps another pilot (Robert) just in flying practice so he can sit in an office rather than the RHS learning his trade to assume the LHS, has rather missed the point of running an airline.

Sorry for this off-piste rant, but airworthiness is a bit of a thing with me, as some here might have noticed! ;)

Stanwell

10th Jan 2016, 08:40

Thank you, Chugalug. Aside from what went on in the flight deck on that ill-fated flight, that's very valid observation. :ok:

Danny, re the Vengeance and the differing wing angles of incidence between the A31 and the A35:
You have said that you hadn't personally flown the A35 version, but did you hear whether the revised AoI
required any significant adjustment to takeoff and landing techniques in that aircraft?
.

Geriaviator

10th Jan 2016, 10:59

When I was young
The final post no. 23 from the memoirs of Tempest pilot Flt Lt Jack Stafford, DFC, RNZAF

NOW I am an old man, and I love to spend time at the beach. The sun is a delight on my ancient bones. I go into the surf and revel in the delicate taste of the salt. I am invigorated by the crash of the waves and I forget I am old. I leave the water contented, lying on the sands while through my sunglasses I look at the beautiful New Zealand sky.

I see the fluffy little white clouds hanging motionless. High in the air, at the level of those comforting clouds, small specks wheel and drop with effortless ease, playing, lifting, dropping, always in total control, the movements of their wings imperceptible. These are the seabirds, travellers of the oceans. Independently they conduct their lives, independently they die when their time is over.

I watch them, I admire them, and I say to myself: Once, in a glider, I did that. When I was young.

http://s20.postimg.org/51qvlxr1p/Jack_Stafford_rotorua.jpg

Danny42C

10th Jan 2016, 19:40

Stanwell (your #8087),

Never having flown one, but I'd be fairly confident that the 4° AoI would make a poor aircraft a little better. For a start, it would "sit" properly in the cruise, and not go round "dragging its #rse" as it did, and final approach would not need to be in a three-point attitude, but apart from that landing and taxying would be normal, and the visibility round the nose no worse than (say) a Spitfire.

The 64-dollar question was "how would it dive ?" Re-trimming nose-heavy as you accelerated in the dive would be an extra job you could well do without, and on pull-out a load of nose-down trim was what you didn't need when you were "greyed out" and in no position do much about it.

As I've said before, it would make it a better aircraft, but a worse dive bomber.

Danny.

Danny42C

10th Jan 2016, 19:55

Geriaviator (your #8088),

What a wonderful end to a gripping memoir ! I didn't know that Jack had left us so recently. Requiescat in Pace.

And thank you for letting us all read his writings - as I've said: "The man was a poet".

Danny.

Stanwell

10th Jan 2016, 19:57

OK, thanks Danny.

Geriaviator. That was very, very good and much appreciated. Thanks for your time and trouble.
.

Danny42C

10th Jan 2016, 20:54

Chugalug (your #8086),

I must agree that "blame the pilots" has always been a useful way of deflecting attention from the more fundamental failings of the designers and regulatory authorities, and many recent accidents have underlined that fact. But it will be ever so, human nature being what it is.

What shocked me about the story was the extent to which "pilotage" (as we knew it) seems to have been almost squeezed out of commercial airliner operation. I suppose that I am an old dodo, and the improvement in fatality rates proves that the new ways are better than the old, but even so, something has been lost.

As far as I can see, "Normal Law" means that the Airbus is flying you: you are no more than a systems manager - and when something does go wrong, you revert to "Alternate Law" and you're presented with the task of actually flying the aeroplane - but you've long since forgotten how to do it !

Better to leave it at that, as now we really are "off Thread" (but food for thought). :*

Cheers, Danny.

Chugalug2

10th Jan 2016, 23:11

Geriaviator, thank you for your excellent posts from Jack Stafford's memoirs. He may have had the job of busting anything and everything that moved on the ground, but he was obviously a man of sensitivity. The gliders seemed to bring about an epiphany for him. The serene simplicity and quiet consorting with nature must have been in stark contrast with the noisy and aggressive business that was his recent employ. As you say, Peace at Last!

Danny, agreed that discussing modern aircraft management has no place here, but that is the point I'm afraid. Modern airliners are managed rather than flown and there is some worry that they do not require, nor even encourage, much in the way of manual handling, a lot of which is done in the simulators instead. The more proactive operators seek to address the issue, but others do not...

Danny42C

11th Jan 2016, 03:39

Chugalug,

Seems Great Minds Think Alike ! Look what's come in on:
...PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page Report: US Government not ensuring pilot skills are sharp.. at 0209 today (from Sawbones62).

Danny.

Danny42C

11th Jan 2016, 04:05

Stanwell,

Thanks for not drawing public attention to my "schoolboy howler" - (AoA for AoI) ! Have corrected it !

Danny.

Walter603

12th Jan 2016, 00:03

I enjoyed this short attachment at St. Athan. I was invited to fly with a Squadron Leader pilot in the new Mosquito aircraft while at St. Athan, and found it quite marvellous. It would afterwards supersede the Beaufighter to some extent, and although built largely of plywood, it had good firepower and was incredibly fast, due of course to its low weight.

One slight mishap in a Beaufighter at St. Athan was almost a very serious crash. Coming in to land one day, after the usual test flight lasting a little over an hour, I was just above the landing field and about to touch down, when the port wing (the left side) dropped violently, and I thought we were about to cartwheel. I corrected mightily with the right rudder, throwing open the throttle of the port engine to make the wing pick up. I thought momentarily about going round again, but decided to land straight ahead, as we regained a normal attitude. I touched down successfully, although a little roughly, and we taxied back to the hangar with a very shaken Sergeant technician in the back seat.

It was just as well I hadn't gone round again! We found that the left wing tip had been damaged, because it had actually touched the grass field when the wing dropped. We also discovered something much more serious. The pitot head (a tube device that measures airspeed by means of the airflow) was stuffed with grass and earth. I had been very close to disaster with the dropped wing, and if I had attempted to fly off and go round again, I would have had little idea of my speed for the next landing attempt.

The trouble found, was due to a blockage in the fuel flow. Fuel for the engines had been drained from the right wing's outer tank, without any being drawn from the left wing. The result was an overloaded left wing, which consequently dropped as soon as we reached stalling speed for the landing.

One day I had the opportunity to take up a Tiger Moth for some sort of test. I picked the appropriate spot in the sky not too far away to practise aerobatics, made my way back to the airfield, and finding myself with too mch altitude, I side-slipped into the approach and made a nice landing. Back at the Flight Office I met an Air Transport Auxiliary male who rudely said, “You can’t side-slip a Tiger Moth into a landing”. He was the first male ATA member I had met; all the others were lovely young women, I’m pleased to say. “Mate” I said to him, “if I didn’t side-slip, what would you call it?”

When I returned to 219 Squadron with a healthy total of Beaufighter hours to my credit, I was put on night patrols. This was not an exciting routine, and consisted of "stooging" backwards and forwards along the coast line, between radar marker beacons, waiting for intruder aircraft to arrive from across the Channel. Preparation for this was made by sitting around from mid-afternooon until dark wearing strong sun-glasses to ensure night vision remained the best.

As soon as "bandits" were spotted by Ground Control - usually when hey were quite a long distance away, rookie pilots like me were recalled to Base, and an experienced pilot (e.g. Squadron Leader Wight-Boycott) was hastily "scrambled" and vectored to the enemy aircraft. I didn't have to endure the boring patrols too long, however. I hadn't been back on the squadron more than three or four weeks, when the news came that Bob Hessey and Iwere posted overseas, to the Middle East along with another 14 two-men crews from Church Fenton OTU, all of whom had been so expensively trained for the night fighter duties.

pulse1

12th Jan 2016, 15:46

I have been Frank’s neighbour for the last 30 years. At 93 he is nearly 20 years older than me and his busy life puts me to shame. Expressions like “salt of the earth” or “they don’t make them like that any more” come readily to mind when you meet this gentle, ”down to earth” character . After our last chat he presented me with a jar of “award winning” marmalade which he had made. This is in spite of suffering several bouts of cancer treatment which have left him walking with a stick. Until now he has always been reluctant to talk about his war experiences for reasons which will become apparent to those who will labour through my attempt to share his story. He probably carried out only about 10 missions against the enemy and he has calculated that he only spent a total of 48 minutes exposed to enemy action. Nothing compared with navigators in Bomber Command.

However, as the original purpose of this great thread was to highlight the various wartime training schemes for the two winged aircrew, I thought it might be interesting to record rarer details of one of those trained to keep some of them on the straight and narrow, at least in the air.

If anyone is still has the will to live after the first part of the story I can go on to share his short operational life and then some of his experiences as a guest of our enemies.

Frank was born in the North East in 1921. His grandfather was a miner but his father ran a family building company and, at 18, Frank was planning with little enthusiasm to train as a surveyor as part of the business. His main source of excitement was riding his 500cc BSA Sloper motorcycle which, Frank says, was one of the first motorbikes to have a twist grip throttle. As soon as war intervened he saw a chance to do something more interesting and immediately applied to join the RAF as aircrew. With the huge influx of recruits his entry was delayed until February 1940 when he was accepted for aircrew training. He then had to give his motorbike to his brother to sell while he reported to RAF Cardington where he was kitted out with his uniform. He had never seen boots before and initially he laced them up a bit too tightly. Three days later he was sent to a boarding house in Morecambe for 3 weeks of drill along the sea front where he soon learned why his boots were too tight.

Further basic training was performed at RAF Upwood before he was sent to Prestwick for pilot training in Tiger Moths. All this training was carried out by civilian instructors employed by Scottish Aviation and his initial flying training went very well. He managed the flying quite well, thoroughly enjoyed it, and went solo after about 6 hours. After this first solo flight, his euphoria was short lived as he entered the crew room to discover a notice which informed him, and one or two others, that they were being sent to the other side of the airfield to be trained as navigators. Along with his friend George Sproates (see Post7851) their initial reaction to this was that they felt “stitched up” or “sold down the river” and they were very angry. They felt like deliberately failing the course until they realised that it meant that they would probably end up with a worse job and, once he got started, he actually found it quite interesting.

He soon learned that his navigation training was designed to fast track navigators for two seat aircraft like the Mosquito and Beaufighter and was to cover daylight flying only. Apart from ground school, Scottish Aviation used the only existing Fokker XXXVI (G AFZR) as a flying class room. This unique, four engine aircraft was drafted into the RAF from Scottish Aviation and was used as a flying classroom until it was damaged during take off in May 1941, after Frank had moved on.

http://www.pprune.org/members/19949-pulse1-albums-fokker-picture92-fokker.jpg

They also used Ansons but, for radio training, he was posted to Yatesbury where he flew in Rapides equipped with radios “from 1918” and which were so difficult to use they “would have confused Marconi”. Fortunately, he was later given a 48 hour course on new radios which were much easier to use.

After completing his training Frank, now a Sergeant with an Observer brevet and paid a handsome 12s 6p a day , was posted to Chivenor to join 272 Sqdn.

Danny42C

12th Jan 2016, 19:31

TWo items on BBC2 may be worth a look-up on iplayer:

Tonight (12th): "Celebrity Antiques Road Trip" [1900], had an early part on the Queen Victoria Hospital, East Grinstead, Sir Archibald McIndoe and the "Guinea Pigs" (and we know all about these, don't we !)

And (not relevant, but very strange) see "Immortal Egypt" [2100, 11th, lasts 59.02 min]. At 07.15 min onward, see if you see what I think I see ! :confused:

Danny.

Danny42C

12th Jan 2016, 20:48

Pulse1 (your #8093),
...If anyone is still has the will to live after the first part of the story I can go on to share his short operational life and then some of his experiences as a guest of our enemies...
Most certainly we have. This is what this Thread is all about ! More, More, please.

Danny.

Tim00

12th Jan 2016, 21:45

My father completed a tour as a nav with 106 in '42, & never really talked about it. After my parents died, I came across this picture (dad on grass in white shirt) with my mother's writing on the reverse. Certainly gave me pause for thought.

http://www.pprune.org/members/221032-tim00-albums-misc-picture95-survivor-front.png

http://www.pprune.org/members/221032-tim00-albums-misc-picture96-survivor-back.png

Thank you all for sharing your memories.

Danny42C

12th Jan 2016, 21:46

Walter (your #8092),
...The pitot head (a tube device that measures airspeed by means of the airflow) was stuffed with grass and earth...
Must have been tough to still be on the aeroplane ! (Reminds me of the tiny Welsh Folk Dancer girl found swinging on the pitot head of our static display Spitfire at our BoB "At Home" Day at Valley in '50).
...As soon as "bandits" were spotted by Ground Control - usually when they were quite a long distance away, rookie pilots like me were recalled to Base, and an experienced pilot (e.g. Squadron Leader Wight-Boycott) was hastily "scrambled" and vectored to the enemy aircraft...
That was a bit hard ! (IMHO). How are the chaps going to learn unless you let them "have a go"? By all means bring on the ace, but let walter and his mates have a crack first ! Otherwise, what was the point of having them on patrol at all ?

Keep the stories coming !,

Cheers, Danny.

Danny42C

12th Jan 2016, 22:33

pulse1 (your #8093),
... He managed the flying quite well, thoroughly enjoyed it, and went solo after about 6 hours...
That would make him "Above Average" in my book, but:
...After this first solo flight, his euphoria was short lived as he entered the crew room to discover a notice which informed him, and one or two others, that they were being sent to the other side of the airfield to be trained as navigators...
That was cruel ! There ought to be a law against that sort of thing ! Not decrying Navigators in any way (some of my best friends have been Navigators !), but to let him go so far as to complete, successfully, that vital first step, and then dash his hopes of a twin wing - that really was going too far.
...After completing his training Frank, now a Sergeant with an Observer brevet and paid a handsome 12s 6p a day , was posted to Chivenor to join 272 Sqdn...
I think he would have kept his "Flying #rse'ole" up through thick 'n thin, and spurned the later "N" badge. His 12/6 (and you could do quite well on that in 1940 and '41 - with all paid it was "beer money", and by the time I came along it would have gone up to 13/6.

Pulse, thank you for showing me something I'd never seen or heard of before. The (one and only) Fokker XXXVI looks very useful (pity it didn't have a retractable u/c - but then neither had the DH "Dominie", and that was pressed into service as a Nav instructional aircraft). And it looks as if it would have fitted in more baby Navs even than the later Varsity.

You've got Frank firing on all cylinders now - keep him at it !

Cheers, Danny.

Union Jack

12th Jan 2016, 22:44

Apart from ground school, Scottish Aviation used the only existing Fokker XXXVI (G AFZR) as a flying class room. This unique, four engine aircraft was drafted into the RAF from Scottish Aviation and was used as a flying classroom until it was damaged during take off in May 1941, after Frank had moved on.

Pulse 1 and Danny, and Frank of course, may care to have a look at http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/451686-what-airliner-type-please.html if you have not already seen it.

Jack

Danny42C

13th Jan 2016, 01:54

Tim00,

An evocative photograph. But surely March is a bit chilly in these latitudes for shirt-sleeve order ? The "752" is a bit puzzling - presumably a reference number on the back of the print.

Five together (one a nav). Could they have been a Wellington crew ? (but then it is difficult to account for the varying dates of death - perhaps this relates to an earlier crew which had survived a tour, but then were dispersed and died on second tours in different crews.
... & never really talked about it...
There is a Thread waiting to be started about this phenomenon, and I may start it one day. I take it, for that reason, your dad has left nothing in writing which you could add to our magnificent archive here ?

Thank you for letting us see it,

Danny42C

BEagle

13th Jan 2016, 07:17

Some trainee directional consultants learning the black art of their craft in a Fokker XVIII:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Fokker%20XXXVI_zpstkx7incj.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/nw969/media/Fokker%20XXXVI_zpstkx7incj.jpg.html)

But had any of them any idea of their actual position?

Tim00

13th Jan 2016, 07:30

Danny,

Sorry, I don't know whether they were a crew, or just a group of friends. Dad was operational from mid 1941 & completed his tour in I think April '42. I've a couple of similar pics where they are clearly relaxing on a warm day, so not quite sure when it was taken. I assume the photo came into his possession from someone else; the notes on the reverse aren't my parents' writing, apart from "only survivor" which I think is mum's.

He'd just joined the Swansea police on the outbreak of war, & on a whim, joined the RAF one lunch time. My grandparents were most upset I gather, since he'd left a reserved occupation. Did a tour on Hampdens, Manchesters & Lancs, and walked away from a Hampden crash at Woodhall Spa caused by icing, I think when setting off to mine or bomb the Scharnhorst during the channel dash.

I have his post-war log, but sadly the wartime one was lost in a fire at Iwakuni in Japan when he was serving there just after the war. I applied for his service record, but it's a bit cryptic.

pulse1

13th Jan 2016, 10:34

Thanks for your encouragement Danny. As one who grew up on a rich diet of post war biographies I have been brainwashed to believe that those who were chopped from pilot training were not considered good enough. However, after long chats with Frank, I suspect that he was moved because he was considered good enough to respond to fast track training as a navigator on two seat aircraft. I should add that this is not necessarily Frank's view. He is typically disparaging about his own skills but, looking at some of his training material (e.g. Post 7919), I am pretty sure that, at that time, they needed the best for that role. As you will see in the next episode, one of his earliest flights was from the UK to Gibraltar and then onto Egypt avoiding enemy or neutral territory. Some test for a 19 year old fresh out of training.

FantomZorbin

13th Jan 2016, 11:29

JENKINS

Was you father's name Cpl Stanley Norman O'Drop per-chance? :E

Danny42C

13th Jan 2016, 11:42

BEagle,

Picture windows, curtains and upholstery. What was the Air Force coming to ?

Instructor (2nd left) looks suitably grim. :*

Danny.

Geordie_Expat

13th Jan 2016, 12:22

Instructor (2nd left) looks suitably grim. :*

Danny.

Looks like a young Peter Sellars:)

Danny42C

13th Jan 2016, 15:10

Not wishing to appear importunate, but may I draw attention to my #8094 ?
...see "Immortal Egypt" [BBC2, 2100, 11th, lasts 59.02 min]. At 07.15 min onward, see if you see what I think I see !..
I cannot account for the moving (carved) figures on the stone frieze (have just checked iplayer again - they're still in motion). I have nothing to do with Twitter et al. Google can't help, so I appeal to PPRuNers:

What is the explanation for this ? Is it a Computer Generated effect ? If so, why? (on a scientific documentary). If not, then.........???

Danny..:confused:

Chugalug2

13th Jan 2016, 19:22

Danny, I'm sure that a media luvvie would be able to explain it in a thrice, while simultaneously suggesting that we are uncultured clods for having to ask. No doubt it adds dramatic effect to what would otherwise be the visual version of dead air. Yesterday I was watching a programme about Alan Turing which had him walking around in filmed scenes as a cartoon character, again with no clear reason for doing so. I think you have the nub of it when you mentioned CGI, in other words because it can be done it is done!

As it is from the BBC, I suspect also that they would baulk at the programme being described as a Scientific Documentary. They don't tend to do scientific much unless there is a strong social or political message that can come out of it. So were the really important ancient Egyptians not the ruling class but rather the PBI? Discuss...

Danny42C

14th Jan 2016, 16:33

Chugalug,

This still leaves me intensely curious. I'll take you up on:
...I'm sure that a media luvvie would be able to explain it in a trice..
We must have IT graphic experts (not necessarily "luvvies") in earshot on this Thread. Come in on this, please - after all, it's not every day you see some graven images on a ancient Egyptian stone block moving about while others remain stationary.

Meanwhile Professor Fletcher continues her lecture, seeming not to notice what is taking place (although the first movement appears on the wall at 07.13, while she is walking out of shot), and movement continues till 0728.

I'm surprised that you seem to be alone (with me) in finding this of interest !

Cheers, Danny.

Chugalug2

15th Jan 2016, 06:59

Danny:-
I'll take you up on:
Quote:
...I'm sure that a media luvvie would be able to explain it in a trice.. On reflection I apologise for using such a sweeping and pejorative term. I can only plead the irritation of being dumbed down to as an excuse. On further reflection I suspect that we are heading for a dead-end here, Danny. whatever the answer is to your original question or even to my irritation (or Victor Meldrew syndrome?), it probably lies outwith the scope of this thread, moderate moderation notwithstanding. Having said that, if someone can answer you I'm sure that we would all learn something...

Like others I am intrigued by Beagle's picture of WWII baby navs under instruction in that unique Fokker a/c. Is that a P12 compass sitting on the table between them? I wonder if that had been swung, either on the ground or in the air? The fate of these pre-war galleons of the air in WWII would be an interesting subject on its own. I seem to remember that one of those majestic Handley Page HP42's ended its days at Drem, nr Edinburgh, a victim of strong winds while carrying out a Squadron move during the BoB.

Danny42C

15th Jan 2016, 19:55

Chugalug,

Ah, the HP 42, the pride and joy of Imperial Airways in the sunny days when I was young and we had an Empire with Empire Air Routes to match ! Flying from Croydon with a wing loading of 9lb/sq.ft, hardly more than a TM's 7lb, it must have been just a big TM, and you could put it down in any cabbage patch if necessary. Wiki notes that it never killed a passenger in the whole of its career, I believe that it never injured one, either - it was a gentle giant.

This Thread seems to have become our private Communication Channel; but I suppose that a generation reared on "Harry Potter" and "Star Wars" sees nothing remarkable in carved Ancient Egyptians capering about among the heiroglyphics.

Cheers, Danny.

John Eacott

15th Jan 2016, 20:04

Danny,

Since this is an international forum, many of us cannot view the BBC and are 'out of the loop' for your discussion on moving Egyptian antiquities.

But Dad did get to Egypt in his time, so maybe he knows more about the mysteries of the East? When he recovers from digging in his wingtip, of course ;)

Danny42C

15th Jan 2016, 21:29

John,

Of course ! BBC2 iplayer only available in UK. Programme in question was a learned treatise ("Chaos") on Ancient Egypt. Carved on a block of stone in a wall was a line of skeletal famine victims. For a period of some 15 seconds some (but not all) of these starting moving on the stone. Lecturer carried on, oblivious to this.

(2226 GMT 15 Jan) They're still at it !

Danny.

Danny42C

16th Jan 2016, 02:10

Time we were back onto the Thread !

BEagle (#8101),
...But had any of them any idea of their actual position?...
and Chugalug (#8110),
...Like others I am intrigued by Beagle's picture of WWII baby navs under instruction in that unique Fokker a/c. Is that a P12 compass sitting on the table between them? I wonder if that had been swung, either on the ground or in the air?...
An old (even older than I) Staff Pilot at ANS on Thorney Island, some half-century ago, told me that, had it not been for the homing instinct of the "old hairies" up front, half the navexs from Thorney would never have got back home at all !

I well remember "A" Flight of 110(H) Sqdn moving up to war on 12 May '43, and entrusting the navigation to a baby nav. But for the Grace of God they would have ended up strewn all over the North East Frontier Province (Bangladesh now). Yours truly, left behind with a snag on the aircraft, was told to "follow the van, and don't dilly-dally on the way". Old Boy-Scout type mapreading led me straight to destination, no trouble at all.

Danny. :ok:

Chugalug2

16th Jan 2016, 09:25

Walter, you certainly used up quite a large chunk of your luck when you went gardening with your asymmetrically heavy port wing tip! You didn't cart wheel, you didn't go around, either of which would have seriously impaired your immediate life expectancy, but recovered the situation and safely completed the landing. All the classic makings of an accident that was trying its best to happen but thankfully was frustrated in the attempt.

One wonders what a BoI would have made of it anyway. Had you gone around and then lost control due to loss of reliable indicated airspeed, would it have realised that the port fuel contents had far exceeded the starboard? Would it further have realised that the pitot's earth contents originated from the initial airfield touchdown and not the crash site? More likely it would have been another case of "pilot error", case closed, there is a war on you know, let's just get on with it...

You cheated fate, saved your reputation, and survived to tell the tale. Thank you for doing so, and let's have lots more!

PS The rude male ATA pilot just shows how one's preconceptions can be gravely in error. For a start ATA conjures up the image of female rather than male pilots, though of course the ATA was originally comprised solely of the latter. Then one wonders how a pilot not in HM Forces (did the ATA have protected employment status?) could openly criticise the professionalism of one who was. That the criticism was clearly rubbish adds to the mystery. Perhaps he had some chip on his shoulder. Perhaps he had been rejected by the Services (age, flat feet?). Whatever the explanation, your riposte was very restrained in the circumstances IMHO. The temptation to offer him further professional advice must have been very great indeed...

Danny42C

16th Jan 2016, 22:57

Chugalug and Walter,

Walter, you should have practised the "picking up the handkerchief" trick before trying to plough up the airfield ! Seriously all would not necessarily have been lost if you had got back airborne without an ASI. You would instinctively have flown the thing round the circuit with all the right attitudes, and using the normal power settings at each stage, the airspeed would have been in the right ballpark.

I flew my first 60 hours in that way, and in Peter Smith's "Vengeance", "Red" McInnis (my Canadian predecessor on 1340 Flight) relates how he once got airborne in a VV on a sortie, only to find that some fat beetle or other had taken up residence in the pitot head and the ASI was u/s. He joined the formation, had no difficulty in flying the sortie (including the dive, of course) and the circuit and landing (what happened to the beetle is not recorded).

I would have thought that the Beau would have had fuel gauges to show where the fuel was at any one time - reminds me of the Vampire, where you had five gauges to watch - and in any violent manoeuvre the fuel re-distributed itself among the five, so you had to tot-up again every time to see your fuel state. Perhaps it was the same with you.

Pilots, Military or Civil (and some not so civil !), as a body, contain the same proportion of idiots as in the population in general:
...The temptation to offer him further professional advice must have been very great indeed...
"Go forth and multiply ?"

Cheers, Danny.

smujsmith

16th Jan 2016, 23:08

Just to note that today would have been yet another birthday for our thread founder Cliffnemo. I will certainly be raising a glass to the man that set this "hare" running. Many a mickle makes a muckle seems appropriate, we have certainly covered some ground !! Cheers Cliff.

http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b572/smujsmith/2e9a04100cf782ae1e3102c1f72a2500_zps7ljlxgth.jpg

Smudge

Danny42C

17th Jan 2016, 17:03

Smudge,

Your picture shows Cliffnemo at 6 BFTS, Ponca City, Oklahoma, with his 'buddy', Hardie Albrecht, an Army Air Corps Aviation Cadet on the Course.

Some background information may be of interest:

1. The BFTS had to take 20% Air Corps Cadets (clearly to compare the results of the RAF training with that of the US Army Air Corps schools) in each intake, which is why Hardie was there. I never could get to know what their conclusions were. On our part, when we got back to UK, no difference was ever noticed between the two at OTU stage or later.

2. BFTS students were kitted out with US summer uniforms (and kept their RAF caps and white "flashes"). Later (post Pearl Harbor) they seem to have got RAF blues as well. In the "Arnold" Schools we had to leave our blues behind for storage in Canada while we were in the States, travelled down and back in our grey "civvie" suits, and were issued with "flight suits" (nothing more than mechanic's overalls) which we wore at all times (and in which we paraded for our Wings).

3. Hardie is wearing an officer's cap. He is an Aviation Cadet, not an 'enlisted man'. If he is unsuccessful, or doesn't like it, he can walk out. US NCOs would address him as "Mister" (what the RAF Ncos called him, I don't know). On successful completion of the Course, he would (I presume) be commissioned as a Second Lieutenant in the Army Air Corps. (Cliff says he ended up ferrying B-17s all over the world). But while he was training with the RAF, I suppose he was lumped-in with our LACs.

4. In an "Arnold" schools we were luckier in some respects. They treated us as they would have treated their own Aviation Cadets (although we remained LACs). Our accommodations were far superior to anything we'd had in the RAF; we had silver service and waiters in the Mess Hall; US NCOs called us "Mister"; and they couldn't get their heads round the idea of a Sergeant- Pilot at all.

Strange world,

Danny.

Chugalug2

17th Jan 2016, 17:31

Danny:-
and they couldn't get their heads round the idea of a Sergeant- Pilot at all.Neither it seems can we these days, Danny. As you say, a strange world, given that NCO pilots prevailed in WWII, with officer aircrew often serving under them as aircraft captain. I know this is a buoy that this forum has gone around many times, but it I still don't understand the RAF's insistence on commissioned pilots (but OK with non-commissioned/WO aircrew). I'm told that it is to ensure a sufficient source of pilot SO/VSO's in the command chain, which in turn raises the question of why should they be pilots in the main?

pulse1

18th Jan 2016, 13:35

Before I continue Frank’s story I have to make an apology. When I said that he put me to shame with his active life style I thought that he was 93. In fact he will be 98 this Summer and my shame knows no bounds.

When Frank arrived at Chivenor to join 272 Sqdn they were in the process of exchanging their Blenheim IVF aircraft for Beaufighters before flying out to Egypt. His friend George was selected to be the crew of the Squadron Leader and Frank was picked by one of the Flight commanders, Flt Lt Robin Campbell. He thinks that this was because they were the top two students from their course. One of his early flights with his new pilot was in a Blenheim when they were sent up to Bristol to pick up spares. They were entertained to lunch in the Directors’ dining room at the Bristol Aircraft Company, an interesting experience for a young man from the North East.

Before they were dispatched to the Middle East Frank was given his first real test as a navigator when the Squadron flew up to Sumburgh to escort a flight of Swordfish aircraft preparing to attack the Bismark which was rumoured to be sailing from Norway. It was here that Frank experienced more of what he saw as class distinction when he invited some of the Swordfish gunners, who were all Naval ratings, into the Sergeant’s Mess for drinks on the eve of the planned Bismark attack. When he argued against the objections of the resident WO’s that “these guys would probably all be dead by this time tomorrow”, they were allowed in. In the event, as history shows, this attack was cancelled when it was realised that Bismark had already left the area.

It is an interesting twist that, about 50 years later, Frank’s daughter married the son of a pilot who took part in the final Swordfish attack on the Bismark off Brest, when the steering was seriously damaged.

In April 41, after a trip to Bristol to pick up new Beaufighters, 272 Sqdn flew down to St Eval and then on to to Abu Sueir in Egypt, routing via Gibraltar and Malta. They had better luck than 252 Sqdn who had one of their aircraft force land in Portugal to be interned as well as one which returned to St Eval.

Once in Egypt, they were based mainly at Ekbu from where Frank took part in ground attack raids in North Africa as part of Operation Crusader. Occasionally he was detached back to Malta for raids on Cartegena Airfield in Sicily. On one trip to Cyprus he had Air Chief Marshall Sir Arthur Tedder on board as a passenger. He spent the trip teaching him how to carry out drift sightings. At this time, there were reports of a German U Boat in the Red Sea and Frank’s aircraft was sent to Hurghada to look for it, in vain as it turned out. At that time, Hurghada was like an American oil town and for the first time in his life he enjoyed their hospitality. The first time he had ever seen tinned beer. After this he was given a few days off and was flown to Cairo in an old Vikers Vimy. (NB. Looking at the records it was more likely to have been a Vickers Valentia, a development of the Vimy and operated as a transport by the RAF in the Middle East at that time)

During the first three days of Crusader, 272 destroyed nearly 30 aircraft, mostly on the ground but a few in the air. On July 24 1941 Frank’s aircraft shot down 2 Ju87s*. During one trip to Malta several Italian gunboats attacked Valetta harbour. One boat managed to escape and Frank’s aircraft was sent to catch it. This “soft” target was no match for the Beaufighter’s devastating fire power and it was completely destroyed. This left Frank “feeling a bit like a murderer” and with a growing perception of the total brutality of the war in which he was engaged. It is one of several experiences which have led to his reluctance to talk about his wartime experiences.

On November 26th 1941 on another Crusader attack on Jedabia airfield near Benghazi, Frank’s pilot Flt Lt Cambell was ill so Frank was standing in for Sgt Hobbs who had been slightly injured on the previous raid. Over the target their aircraft took a hit in one engine which burst into flames. His pilot managed to put it down on the same airfield and Frank was able to escape unhurt. Unfortunately his pilot, Sgt Price, had trouble releasing his harness and received severe burns to his hands and arms. He was eventually repatriated. Frank was carted off to a makeshift POW camp where most of his fellow guests were from the 8th Army. For him “ze war was over” except that, as the next episode will show, it carried on but in a very different manner.

• Some of these details were taken from the book “Beaufighter” by Chaz Bowyer, ISBN 0-7183-0647-3

Union Jack

18th Jan 2016, 18:26

Hardie Albrecht, an Army Air Corps Aviation Cadet on the Course - Danny

A wee shoogle with Goggle informs us, amongst other things, that the

Desert Sun 29 December 1944 ? California Digital Newspaper Collection (http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=DS19441229.2.53) confirms his subsequent promotion to First Lieutenant in December 1944

http://spartahistory.org/newspaper_splits/The%20Sentinel%20Leader/1945/The%20Sentinel%20Leader%20-%2011_1945%20-%20Page%2012%20.pdf tells us about his wedding in late 1945, complete with a photo of his bride,

Hardie M. Albrecht (1916 - 1991) - Find A Grave Memorial (http://image1.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSsr=41&GSmid=48150755&GRid=127776133&) confirms the dates of his birth and death, and where he is buried,

whilst http://media1.razorplanet.com/share/513949-5875/resources/585841_May252014Announcements.pdf asks for him to be remembered on Memorial Day 2014

Danny42C

19th Jan 2016, 00:23

Jack,

Thank you for a brilliant piece of research ! Sadly I note that divorce is also in the record. What tales Hardie could have told ! - From Cliff (p.117 #2339):
...On graduation he became a 'loo tenant'. He delivered all types of aircraft, including Flying Fortresses all over the world...
Cliff (p.5 #83) states that he started flying at Darr Field in 8/'43, Hardie would be with him, they would graduate about 2/44, Hardie would have put up the gold bars then, so as he changed them for silver (1st. Lieut) in 12/44, it would seem that they had a (wartime) time promotion much the same as ours (6 mos P/O to F/O, 18 mos F/O to F/L). Don't know how long he would have to wait for Captain (two silver bars).

Interesting ! Danny.

Danny42C

19th Jan 2016, 00:39

pulse1,
...In fact he will be 98 this Summer and my shame knows no bounds...No shame involved at all, my dear sir. So Frank is 97 now ! And I'm displaced from my commanding position as the Oldest Inhabitant, and must reluctantly give up the best chair nearest the fire ! (and the free beer).

Ah well - Age Before Beauty !

Danny.

PS: I've asked the BBC to account for the weird goings-on amid the heiroglyphics; they have acknowledged my email and I now wait for a reply. I have a suspicion that I might have to wait for quite some time....D. :rolleyes:

Chugalug2

19th Jan 2016, 20:04

pulse1, please let Frank know how much it is appreciated that through you his story is being told on this thread. He has a rapt audience who are united in their appreciation of the telling of it, not in a vicarious way but rather in appreciation of how much is owed to him and all who served on our behalf in the maelstrom that was WWII.

As you have already indicated, there was much that troubled and much that would rather have been forgotten if it could be, but that is the reality of war, rather than in its fictional or dramatic representation, and needs to be learned by succeeding generations. There is no such thing as a good war, but there are things that are worse than war, and sometimes war is the lesser of the two evils. WWII was such a war, I think, and the winning of it meant freedom for my generation and that of our children and their children. So thank you Frank, now elevated to Senior Pilot in this Crewroom in the Cloud by its previous incumbent. I am sure though that there is plenty of room for both by the fire which blazes perpetually without ever seeming to need topping up from the scuttle.

Union Jack, excellent sleuthing in finding promotion, marriage, and in-memoriam for Cliff's friend Hardie! What a wonder the internet is, when a local paper from nearly 70 years ago can appear to us as on the day it was published. I wonder if Mrs Albrecht is still with us? Interesting that Hardie's in-memorium has him as ex-USAF, but as it says he served until 1946 surely it would still have been the USAAF?

Walter603

21st Jan 2016, 05:32

It was about end of May or beginning of June, I remember, and wonderful weather. Elmer's Tune" was a very popular song at the time, and I can't hear it now without remembering the balmy summer days and the overseas leave that passed all too quickly.

One lasting memory I shall never forget was when I was on my way to say goodbye to my aunt and uncle. Striding along the pavement, I saw a cheeky-faced little girl about 13 years old, with bright eyes and ready smile, calling out something to me that I thought was probably impertinent. I didn't reply but continued on to my relatives. That little girl became my first date on arrival home in 1945, and we enjoyed 67+ years of marriage until she died 14 months ago.

We drew our khaki drill shirts, shorts, etc. from stores, and all the other paraphernalia, such as pith helmets. Very shortly we found ourselves at RAF Padgate, a dispatch centre near Manchester, and there we met up with many of our former classmates from training schools. I was particularly pleased to find myself with pilot Reuben Giles, and his observer Len Coulstock, with whom I had become quite a close friend whilst at Church Fenton. A number of Canadian aircrew were also with us at Padgate. I remember them best for their inveterate gambling. They'd play poker all night, whenever the opportunity presented itself.

A few days were spent at RAF Padgate before we were sent northwards by train late one night, and we arrived early the following morning at Greenock, a large port in Scotland, where we embarked immediately on the Steamship "Ranpura". We sailed out of the Clyde and westwards into the Atlantic, in a large convoy of supply ships escorted by the Royal Navy and patrolling Sunderland aircraft.

Although we took everything in our stride without too much thought in those days, I know from hindsight that the ship was dreadfully overcrowded. There were troops everywhere. By "troops" I mean Servicemen of every description. Many slept on the Mess decks, having to stow their kit away by day, and hanging their hammocks over the meal tables late at night after all meals had finished. As NCO aircrew, we were allotted quarters formerly reserved for ship's crew members. Over the door of the cabin I shared with 17 other Sergeants, there was a sign, "12 Lascar Seamen" !

I think we sailed about three-quarters of the way across the Atlantic, south-westwards towards America, before turning south-east and heading to Africa. The journey was five weeks, and we took some turns at spotting for enemy aircraft. On approaching Freetown, we were again escorted by Sunderland aircraft until docking at this equatorial port in Sierra Leone. We stayed here only overnight, and were off next morning to Lagos, in Nigeria, where we disembarked and slept ashore.

The following day we embarked again in a small Norwegian coastal ship, and spent three days retracing our journey back towards Freetown, but stopping at Takoradi, in what was then called the Gold Coast, and is now Ghana.

pettinger93

21st Jan 2016, 11:20

The mention of the troopship down the Atlantic is similar to that of my father Harold Pettinger. He was a 2nd lieutenant in the Yorks and Lancs regiment, aged 20, en route to Egypt. He was on a White Star line ship to Capetown, packed with troops, but also with some civilians. While wandering down the Atlantic for 6 weeks, my father got to know young girl called Dorothy fleeing London bombing to go to relatives in Rhodesia. They spent 3 days in Capetown before she caught her train to Bulowayo, and my father changed ships for Egypt, where he took part in the 1st Tobruk siege ( winning the MC) and later in Burma with the Chindits. Dorothy and my father corresponded right through the war, but after the war she married an RAF pilot, and stayed in Africa, while my father went back to London and his parents, marrying my mother a few years later.

The twist to this story is: my mother having died some 20 years ago, I took my father ( then 90) to a memorial service at Westminster Abbey. Seeing his medals, the taxi drivers would not take a fare from us, and I wrote to The Times to thank them. This letter was published and seen by Dorothy, now 89, still in Zimbabwe and widowed. A year later, repatriated to the UK, she managed to get in touch, and we discovered she now lived only 10 miles from my father, and they were reunited. It was as if they had never been separated, and they were as close as its possible to be until they both died in 2013 aged 91 and 93. There are a lot more incredible coincidences involved, and a google for 'Harold Pettinger and Dorothy Crombie' will give some more details, but there are far more extra stories about them than it is possible for me to write here.

Danny42C

22nd Jan 2016, 00:28

Good Friends,

Sorry for airing this bee in my bonnet again, but in a PS to my #8123, I wrote:
This was written on 19th Jan; there has been no further response from the BBC I have an (unworthy ?) suspicion that:

(a) they will simply ignore my request or

(b) wait till 2 Feb (when the 22 days in which the iplayer repeat is available is up), then simply say that they can't find it and I've been 'seeing things!'

In this case I'd like some backup. The weird sight is still on BBC iplayer. I'd be grateful if one or two of you would Google>BBC iplayer>BBC TWO Immortal Egypt with Joann Fletcher (select No.2 Chaos).

You don't have to dig into your store of Gbs: you only need to watch (say) 35 secs from 7.00 to 7.35 (the apparition lasts from 7.12 to 7.29 mins on the progamme). Then I'd have a few good witnesses ! (Don't Post in to confirm you've seen it yet - we'll see what happens !)

Once again I throw myself on the mercy of our Moderators to allow this blatant excursion from thread - just this once more Pur-leese !

Danny.

Danny42C

22nd Jan 2016, 01:37

Walter (your #8125),

Our paths seem to have crossed in so many ways. "Elmer's tune" was/is one of my favourites, too, and it fixes our time frame as 1941. I went out to the States for my flying training in the September of that year (it was on all the jukeboxes), returning to the UK in March '42, and went out to India in late October. By then they had got a Reception Centre going in Blackpool which did the preparations for overseas postings before going up to Gourock for my ship.

Like your "Ranpura", my "Stirling Castle" was dog-legged right across the Atlantic to Brazil (Bahia), then back round the Cape to Durban and Bombay. It was only on this Thread that I learned that that was to keep us away from the North African invasion traffic. But you had a cabin ! Jammy ! I was on the top of a 7-tier bunk in what had been the first-class dining saloon. So you've got as far as Takoradi now (don't know it). Pilgrim's Progress ! (of a sort).

What a lovely "boy meets girl" story. I've had 61 years with my Iris now, "and it don't seem a day too long". I can only imagine the scale of your loss, offer my profound sympathy, and hope it doesn't happen to me (the odds are in my favour, as I'm eight years older). But you never know.

Looking forward to your next instalments, when you'll be getting down to business.

Cheers, Danny

Danny42C

22nd Jan 2016, 01:47

Pettinger93,

And then you cap it with another ! What a heart-warming reunion at the end of their lives. And what an amazing coincidence (in a war which was full of amazing coincidences). There is some good in this old World, after all.

Danny.

pettinger93

22nd Jan 2016, 08:12

Their reunion was indeed a lovely thing: their joy at meeting was heart warming. Its almost a Mills and Boon story. and we had thought of writing a book about it, but it would probably seem too unbeleiveable.

To name just one of the many coincidences: Dorothy had 3 children with her RAF husband, one of whom was born on the same day and within 15 minutes of my birth, and another child was born on the same day as my sister.

Before Dorothy first got in touch we had no idea of her existence, but afterwards Dad revealed that he had kept all of their wartime correspondence that continued even while he was in the Libyan desert and the Burmese jungle.

Just to put this back on thread, Dorothy's son has been a RAF fast jet pilot, and is now a training captain pilot with a major airline. Both families are all still firm friends.

Union Jack

22nd Jan 2016, 08:45

Cue Major Glenn Miller!:ok:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCUsYIwpfVs

lCUsYIwpfVs

Jack

Warmtoast

22nd Jan 2016, 11:17

Pettinger93

Your Dad's obituary appeared in the DT here:
Major Harold Pettinger - obituary - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/11250567/Major-Harold-Pettinger-obituary.html)

and The Times published an article about "The Wartime Couple Reunited after 68 Years" on 12 December 2009. Do you want me to show it here?

WT

Keeffro

22nd Jan 2016, 16:54

From the YouTube comments. A song for its era:

Over in Chicago next to the Aragon Ballroom was a funeral parlor. One of the morticians was Elmer Albrecht, who used to go next door to the Aragon at lunch and play the piano. Goofball bandleader Dick Jurgens liked what he heard, and the rest is history.
Reply · 2

David Ramsey 1 year ago (edited)
+KE7SFR Yes. There's nothing more to the name. The lyrics and the tune are art for art's sake although the song conveys a message that there's no point in worrying about many items in life. Things happen because they happen. Be happy. Go lucky. What other option do you have? Just get on with life and sing "Elmer's Tune."

Ddraig Goch

22nd Jan 2016, 18:37

Fear not Danny, you are right about the movement in Immortal Egypt- the frieze moves a la joint HBO BBC opening titles to their historical drama Rome.

As a bonus for still being sane I give you and others a link to pilot training in Canada in WW2 from perhaps a different perspective Harvards Above: The History Of World War Two RAF Fleet Air Arm Training In Kingston & Gananoque, Ontario, Canada (http://www.harvardsabove.ca/)

I have also come across references to Vultee Vengences in a book called "Fighting through Kohima" by Michael Lowry

Fighting Through to Kohima: A Memoir of War in India and Burma eBook: Michael Lowry: Amazon.co.uk: Kindle Store

which is well worth a read for it's depiction of the terrors of the infantry fighting in the jungle against the Japanese.

I hope none of the above links have been mentioned before.

MPN11

22nd Jan 2016, 19:21

i have just returned from a couple of weeks somewhere warm and Pacific, and have finally got round to catching up.

Thank you all, VERY much, for the continued vibrancy and educational value of the wonderful thread.

That's all ... just needed to say that. Carry on, please. ;)

Danny42C

22nd Jan 2016, 22:25

Ddraig Goch....do I sense a Welsh connection ?...... (your #8134),
...depiction of the terrors of the infantry fighting in the jungle against the Japanese...
(From my Post p.141 #2813)
...We lived in luxury compared with the P.B.I. # in the jungle. In bamboo bashas, with mosquito nets and camp beds (in my case, my DIY travelling bed) *, we were quite comfortable and reasonably well fed...
( * Charpoy, all joints dissembled, two long members lashed to internal bomb racks, six short ones [two ends and four legs] fit between my seat back and armour plate. Bundle of cotton webbing ["liberated" from a "Cot Newar" - posh charpoy] and mossie net in bedroll [also in bomb bay with rest of crew kit].....reconstruct bed at destination approx 10 mins).

The # Poor Bloody Infantry had it rough in the jungle - there is plenty of war newsfilm showing them struggling in the mud in which they lived, fought (and often died).
...Fear not Danny, you are right about the movement in Immortal Egypt- the frieze moves à la joint HBO BBC opening titles to their historical drama Rome...
Thank you ! (BBC have emailed me yesterday):
...Hello again.

Just to let you know that it’s taking a bit longer than normal to reply to your enquiry – we’re really sorry about this!

It might be a few days yet, but we hope we can help.

Thanks a lot for your patience.

BBC Enquiries Team
Today's most popular FAQs - BBC - FAQs - Home (http://www.bbc.co.uk/faqs/)
P.S. It’s not possible to reply to this email, but we’ll be in touch soon...
Which leaves me thinking that they're as foxed as I am !
...I hope none of the above links have been mentioned before...
Doesn't matter if they have. Thanks all the same,

All the best, Danny.

Danny42C

22nd Jan 2016, 23:32

pettinger93 (your #8130),

Coincidence piled on coincidence ! It is hard to resist the conclusion that something we do not understand was at work here.
... but afterwards Dad revealed that he had kept all of their wartime correspondence that continued even while he was in the Libyan desert and the Burmese jungle...
I would call that "living dangerously" !

Danny.

Walter603

23rd Jan 2016, 06:25

Thanks Jack for that lovely rendition of Elmer's Tune. You made my day.
I have "the very best of Glen Miller" on my iPad but it doesn't include Elmer; must now go searching for another album.
Danny, I hope you tuned in too?

pettinger93

23rd Jan 2016, 10:12

Warmtoast:

Feel free to post my father's Obit and the Times article here. Its all in the public domain. I havn't said more about Dad's story, since the subject seems to have drifted a long way from the original aeronautical thread title! But just one more flavour: Dorothy occupied a cabin on the voyage out to Capetown with her sister and 2 other women. 2 days into the voyage a drunken seaman entered their cabin in the evening, and tried to get into bed with the sister. Dorothy, knowing that a couple of Army officers were in another cabin across the corridor, banged on their door for help, and my father, grabbing his service revolver, expelled the seaman in short order. Which is how they met. How romantic is that?

Warmtoast

23rd Jan 2016, 16:23

pettinger93
Feel free to post my father's Obit and the Times article here
Times article below (it was a two-page spread)

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Image1_zpsmcimfvsn.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/Image2_zpsh1g8aaqh.jpg

Danny42C

23rd Jan 2016, 20:14

Union Jack and Walter603,

Thank you, Jack, for the Youtube of "Elmer's Tune". There is nothing like music to reawaken old times - and I'd long forgotten the lyrics. Together with "Amapola" (which Chugalug turned up for me a while ago) and "Yes, my Darling Daughter", it was at the top of the charts in the summer of '41, when my world was young.

Danny.

Walter603

24th Jan 2016, 08:24

Thanks Danny for your sympathy. Not a day goes by without me thinking of my beloved Jean Norma. I too never thought it would happen to me.
That's life!

pulse1

25th Jan 2016, 10:05

Since I posted the second episode of Frank’s war story, it is interesting that Danny’s excellent new thread has shown that many, who experienced or witnessed the brutal horrors of what Frank calls “the real war”, were reluctant to talk about their experiences. On the lighter side, some have shared how war brought them romance and a partner for life. The third and final episode of Frank’s story has both of these features.

After a short spell in a local POW camp, Frank was put on a ship to Naples and then by train to spend about 2 years in a POW camp at Serviagliano. It was here that he developed many of the manual skills which, apart from stealing, formed the basis of his career in later life.

In September 43 the Italians surrendered and for some reason The War Office ordered all UK prisoners to remain in their prison camps. However, the Senior British Officer at the camp ignored that ruling and Frank, along with two friends, joined about 2000 others in an attempt to make it to Switzerland. For some weeks they were helped by the local population but, when the Germans started to punish anybody who helped them, they tried to make it on their own. They headed North but the rapidly approaching Autumn and wearing out shoes made their progress over the higher ground extremely difficult and they were forced to retreat into a valley where they were spotted and captured by a passing German convoy.

The three of them were put into a cattle truck and started a long train journey to Germany. They spent the time trying to cut a hole in the floor of the truck with three spoons they had been given. They did get through but couldn’t make a big enough hole to escape through. It was during this journey, while still in Italy, they found out what it was like to be on the receiving end of a ground attack when their train was attacked by a flight of Marauders.

Frank and his two friends eventually arrived at Stalag 7A, Germany’s biggest POW camp. He spent a few months there before it was back into a cattle truck for a trip to Leipzig and Stalag 4B where he remained until the Russians arrived and then, he says, he found out what war was really all about.

It was one morning in the Spring of 1945 that the camp residents awoke to find that their German guards had gone. Soon after, the camp was invaded by a lot of local women and children seeking protection from the advancing Russian army. Obviously the prisoners could do nothing and as soon as the Russian soldiers arrived, they took the women and children from the camp and pretty much left the POWs alone. These had been the front line troops and they soon left to carry on fighting the Germans, leaving a bit of a vacuum behind them before the main Russian troops arrived to take over the city. During this time Frank left the camp to forage for food and it was then he discovered the horror of what happened to the German women. Many of them lay dead in the streets with their clothing ripped off.

He found an old bicycle which was ok apart from a flat front tyre and started to extend his searches for food. On one trip he came across an undamaged house which had obviously been occupied by a high ranking family. It sported a grand piano and a well stocked wine cellar. While he was exploring this house, he was accosted by two Russian soldiers and he was terrified that, with his blond hair, they would think that he was a German. However, he managed to convince them that he was American and they let him go. He got back on the bike and continued until he reached the River Elbe and a thoroughly bombed rail bridge. He could see the rails were unbroken, sagging beneath the water, so he made his was across with the water up to his neck. To his great relief the troops on the other side were American and his ordeal was over.

The Americans flew him to Brussels in a Dakota. They flew low over the middle of Cologne and the sight of the widespread devastation of that city, with the Cathedral standing apparently undamaged, reinforced his appreciation of the horrors of the real war.

From Brussels he was flown back to Benson in a Lancaster and then on to Church Fenton where they didn’t know what to do with him. At that time Church Fenton was being used to store surplus American vehicles and Frank used some of his POW skills to try to acquire a Jeep. Eventually they sent him home for 4 months recuperation with about £1800 worth of back pay and his first difficult decision of what car to buy. Initially tempted to spend a considerable part of his pay on a new SS100 for £850 or an MG TB for £500 , he eventually saw sense and bought a brand new Austin Nippy (sporty 2 seat version of the Austin 7) for £130.

Following a few weeks of leave at home, Frank was sent for recuperation to Sunninghill Park (eventually to become the home of Prince Andrew after his marriage to Sarah Ferguson). He drove down from Durham in his new car although petrol rationing made that a bit of a trial. He stopped at a country garage which appeared to be run by an American who asked how much “gas” he wanted. When Frank showed him his paltry petrol coupons he laughed and gave him a couple of Jerry cans of “gas” and sent him on his way.

AT Sunninghill Park he was able to further develop carpentry and metalworking skills he had learned as a POW. This huge country mansion also had a lake and Frank managed to convince the owners that a couple of sailing dinghies would help some of the guests in their recuperation. This allowed him to develop a lifelong interest in sailing and brought him into contact with the WRNS young lady who was soon to become his wife. Ironically, their daughter eventually married a double Olympic Sailing Gold medallist whose father had helped to sink the Bismark in a Swordfish.

So, a brutal World War took a young Frank, from his safe life as a trainee surveyor in his father’s business, through the physical and emotional maelstrom of fighting the enemy, to be deprived of his freedom and live by his wits, to eventually settle happily with his family on the South Coast as a loved and respected teacher of metalwork and carpentry in the local secondary school.

While I was interviewing Frank for his story, it was typical of the man that he kept telling me that his wife, sadly no longer with us, had a story as a WRNS officer which would have been much more interesting than his. At one stage she was a driver for the top brass engaged in the D Day landings. On one trip through the New Forest with a VSO she was so desperate to go to the loo, she stopped the car, made an embarrassed apology and shot off into the trees. She raced back to the car, mumbled her apologies again and drove off. A few minutes later she became aware that her passenger was not with her. Apparently he had taken the opportunity to get out and relieve himself as well.

Footnote:

I intend to give frank a hard copy of this story along with relevant posts which have followed.

JAVELINBOY

25th Jan 2016, 12:22

Tributes Pour In After Death Of Decorated D-Day Air Gunner Hero At 94 | (http://katm.co.uk/index.php/tributes-pour-in-after-death-of-decorated-d-day-air-gunner-hero-at-94/)

RIP

Danny42C

26th Jan 2016, 00:38

pulse1 (your #8143),

Reading Frank's experiences in Italian captivity, I'm powerfully reminded of a best-seller some years ago: "Love and War in the Apennines" (Eric Newby), Picador (1983) ISBN 978-0-330-28024-2. The usual on-line purveyors have copies (inc a £4.74 Kindle). Wiki has a very good summary....They flew low over the middle of Cologne and the sight of the widespread devastation of that city, with the Cathedral standing apparently undamaged, reinforced his appreciation of the horrors of the real war...
From Post p.226 #4511:
...When USAAC General "Hap" Arnold (the instigator of the eponymous Scheme (in which I learned to fly in '41-'42), toured the German cities in 1945, even he was shocked by what he saw. "One gets a feeling of horror," he wrote on seeing Cologne: "Nothing, nothing is left." (D.Tel. "Review" on 19.10.13.)...
The story of a driver, a Staff car and a General was widely disseminated in the later stages of the war (maybe it was on TEE EMM ?). So this is the original !

Now I must thank you (and I trust I speak for all) for your successful efforts to winkle his memoirs out of Frank. Please convey our thanks to him also, with our best wishes for his remaining years with us. Might I tentatively suggest that you keep up the relationship and read out to him (or print-out for him) some of the wonderful stories on ourThread ? (The Seat by the Fire is still his !)

Gratefully, Danny.

PS:

...Initially tempted to spend a considerable part of his pay on a new SS100 for £850 or an MG TB for £500 , he eventually saw sense and bought a brand new Austin Nippy (sporty 2 seat version of the Austin 7) for £130...

It would have been 2/H. They stopped production in 1939 (Wiki). In 1946, I bought a 1931 Standard Big Nine for £165 (which would have been its price new fifteen years before).

It was practically impossible to get a new car then - they all went for export. The prices for the SS 100 and the MG were about right, a new Morris Minor was around £345. Even when the XK 120 took the world by storm (1950 ?) they were priced at £995 (IIRC).

Danny42C

26th Jan 2016, 03:44

I must now eat humble pie and withdraw the aspersions cast upon the BBC in my earlier Posts. This has come in from them:
...BBC Enquiries - Case ref: CAS-3664402-SFVPZX 25/01/2016 - 09:26

Hello D#####,

Many thanks for getting in touch with us and apologies for the delay in response (we've been very busy!)

I checked for you and indeed, the stone figures are moving.

This is, however, by design. It was an intended feature for the segment and what was discussed at this particular time. It was a special effect so to speak which highlighted the famine victims but also the 'chilling omen' the narrator mentioned.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards and best wishes for the year ahead.

Peter Matchett

BBC Enquiries Team..
Can't say fairer than that ! It may be that their Special Effects people, together with the Loud and Completely Unnecessary Background Music Brigade, should be locked up as Public Nuisances, and the key thrown away - but then I suppose I'm an old fuddy-duddy.

My thanks to our generous Moderators, for allowing me to bang this drum (this is the end).

Danny42C

Chugalug2

27th Jan 2016, 09:19

Danny, so the moving images on the Egyptian frieze have to be investigated by the BBC Enquiries Department in order to explain them to a bemused BBC viewer? Cleverness it seems knows no bounds, and I add this incident to my ragbag of BBC anecdotes in order to counter any temptation I might possibly get to subsidise such cleverness by, as suggested by them, voluntarily forfeiting my soon to be granted status of free license holder.

Pulse 1, I join Danny in thanking you for your selfless task of bringing us Frank's story. The fickle finger of fate turned his world upside down when he took over an injured colleague's duties. He could so easily have succumbed to the dangers and privation that then became his lot, until he took the initiative and made his own fortune by getting across the Elbe and into friendly hands. It may all sound routine and unremarkable to him, but of course it is anything but, and well done for adding his story to the countless others of his peers in this, the best of all PPRuNe threads.

Danny42C

28th Jan 2016, 01:17

Chugalug,

I do not often venture outside my own playpen, but I must congratulate you, my first Mentor on this Thread, on your #61 on "Jet2, anyone ?" As an "Apologia pro vita sua" (and for the benefit of non-classicists, this does not mean "apology"), I have never seen it bettered - it is positively Ciceronian in its scope and logic !

I particularly like these snippets:
...So why this long self indulgent rambling?...
With respect, Sir, it is nothing of the sort !
...in order to counter any temptation I might possibly get to subsidise such cleverness by, as suggested by them, voluntarily forfeiting my soon to be granted status of free license holder...
Clearly the BBC is "on its uppers" (not surprisingly in view of the obscene salaries and pensions enjoyed by their Directors and "top brass"), and (unwilling to contemplate trimming these perks, or dispensing with the services of background Musak providers and fiddlers with ancient monuments), are casting envious eyes on the 75+ concession, and wishing it had never been granted (or been forced upon them by Government), but not daring to suggest its withdrawal, are now appealing to the better nature of the recipients to surrender it voluntarily. Not this child ! - and I urge my fellow greybeards to resist these blandishments. Bring back Lord Reith, say I (he'd sort 'em out !)
...Last edited by Chugalug2; 27th Jan 2016 at 10:46. Reason: Spieling..
That deserves to rank with the "deadful" (on these pages long ago), I can think of many a time I might have used that happy error ! (indeed, I'm spieling now).

Time to give up all those New Year Resolutions, (1st Feb), chaps. (You only live once). :ok:

Danny.

Walter603

28th Jan 2016, 03:19

Takoradi was a transit camp, and we spent several days here exploring the country, revelling in the heat, and experiencing the sights and smells of a very different style of life from our own. We shared "boys" - black servants who looked after our needs very well. Our beds were made, our shoes cleaned beautifully, and our clothes cleaned and pressed for us whenever we required.

This was malaria country. It was necessary to cover up properly at night. No rolled-up sleeves, no short trousers, anti-mosquito cream spread over faces and necks before going out, and a daily dose of a quinine extract as a prophylactic (I think it was called "mepacrine"). The jungle was close by, and the intriguing noise of tom-toms could be heard after dark. The heat was steamy and intense. We all had mosquito nets over our beds, and I was meticulous about keeping mine in place, carefully tucked in around the bed after I settled down.

Many of my mates, especially those who often got themselves more than a little drunk, were careless about these matters, and frequently slept outside their nets. Nevertheless, guess who later became the only victim of malaria?

We were at Takoradi probably about ten days, before being loaded into a Pan-American twin-engined civil aircraft, and flying north-eastwards across Africa. The aircraft had been stripped of all passenger fittings, but we were made quite comfortable on the floor, with plenty of cushions, and regular meals served up in cardboard boxes!

We landed for refuelling stops and overnight accommodation at exotic places, such as Kano, an ancient mud-walled town in eastern Nigeria, in French Equatorial Africa (now Chad), and at Khartoum, in the Sudan. Here it was that I had the first inkling that my health was not the best. We were out drinking at one of Khartoum's hotels, about 10 of us, when I began to notice a peculiar creeping sensation along my limbs and up my back. Busily, I consumed lots of "Tom Collins", a gin-based drink, to drown the feeling, with some success.

Next day I felt normal, and it was at Khartoum that our trans-African flight ended. We were to complete our journey on the Sudanese-Egyptian railway, and were loaded into Second Class carriages for the long haul to Egypt. After three or four hours of intense heat on the train, I began again to feel those horrible sensations, and I became very flushed. Fellow crew-mate Tommy Harper and I toured the train, seeking a doctor, and we found an Army medico comfortably ensconced in the First Class portion of the train.He took my temperature, and found it to be 104 degrees (40C).

So I was put off the train at Atbara, on the edge of the Nubian Desert and was sent to an Army Hospital nearby, where I remained for the next two weeks recovering from a severe attack of malaria. It was here that I saw some remarkable weather, in the violent storms that came near, but never quite overwhelmed us, every evening as the sun went down. The colours of the sunset and the awesome clouds that always gathered at dusk, were something to behold. I also saw the loathsome vultures, lined up on the apex of several roofs of the Army huts.

One day, towards the end of my stay whilst I was recovering, I saw a soldier walking across the dusty space between two buildings, carrying a large plate of somebody's midday meal (I think it was his own). Suddenly a huge vulture swooped down from the nearby roof, and in a very slick action, took up the meat from the moving plate, and was gone in an instant, leaving a dazed soldier with only half his dinner!

Danny42C

28th Jan 2016, 07:11

Walter,

Once again your experiences chime with mine at several points. Although I was never at Takoradi myself, I understand that a flight of my old (110 Hyderabad) sqdn were equipped, just post-war, with Vultee Vengeance Mk.IV (the only ones who ever got that Mark). This was for the purpose of air-spraying anti-malarial trials at Takoradi. They wouldn't have got them in India, for they didn't have the range to get to Africa themselves; I can only assume that they picked them up somewhere in Africa.

Curiously, at about that time (end of '45), my little unit (1340 Flight) was trying the same idea locally in Cannanore (S. India), using the underwing spray tanks that we'd previously used for spraying mustard gas for the Chemical Defence Research Establishment there. I would assume that 110 were using similar tanks (a type which we'd used the year before to lay smoke screens - but that was before I took over). Never heard the results of the Takoradi trial, but the story was that the Mk.IVs had given a lot of trouble, and they'd have been better off with Mk.IIIs which were readily available in quantity.

You were right about mepacrine, a tablet a day was compulsory, and we also had to take salt tablets to compensate for the loss in sweat. Malaria is no fun at all, I had three doses, two were Benign Tertian (which is bad) and one Malign Tertian (which, as its name suggests, is a damn sight worse). Again, I got each of my three doses in spite of all precautions, whereas a night spent on first arrival at Howrah station (Calcutta), by the river, with only a thin, filthy blanket and no net, caused no cases in our little group of half-a-dozen, although we were in the malaria capital of the Empire. It's just the luck of the the draw.
...Busily, I consumed lots of "Tom Collins", a gin-based drink...
More likely, a "John Collins" (strictly speaking "Tom Collins" is based on "Old Tom" gin [which is rare and expensive], "John" is London dry gin - except in wartime India, when the local "Carew's" gin [not bad at all] was all there was).
...remained for the next two weeks recovering from a severe attack of malaria..
Yes, same with us - five days quinine, two days rest, five days plasmoquine two days mepacrine and a fortnight's sick leave.
... Suddenly a huge vulture swooped down from the nearby roof, and in a very slick action, took up the meat from the moving plate, and was gone in an instant, leaving a dazed soldier with only half his dinner!..
More likely a "sh#tehawk" (cf my Post p.333 #6642 on exactly the same topic !)

Keep it coming, Walter - this is fine ! :ok:

Cheers, Danny.

Union Jack

28th Jan 2016, 09:42

More likely, a "John Collins" (strictly speaking "Tom Collins" is based on "Old Tom" gin [which is rare and expensive] - Danny

Rare and expensive indeed, possibly like the young American lady in the bar at the Officers' Club at NAS Cubi Point at Subic Bay who, when asked what she would like, replied in apparent innocence that she would love a John Thomas, adding that she would like it to be "long and strong".....:uhoh:

Wander00

28th Jan 2016, 10:54

I recall a young lady saying the same thing in the Dome Hotel in Kyrenia 51 years ago, when we were on the R&R afternoon of our Towers Leadership Camp. I recalled the occasion as I sat with friends in the same hotel on 2 Jan this year

Chugalug2

28th Jan 2016, 17:28

Danny, thank you for your kind words, but I fear I am but a humble rear-of-stage spear carrier compared to those like yourself bestriding this thread with effortless classical prose. Your invariable use of Latin tags to make your point has been an education for us all!

It is a great comfort to know that we are united in our response to the BBC offer that they hope we might feel unable to refuse. A mass picket of placard waving angry old men and women at Portland Place perhaps? We have nothing to lose but our Grecian Gray!

Walter, your post reminds us of the inordinate diversions that were required to get from A to B in WWII, particularly when B was in North Africa. Having been on the most meandering voyage to the Gold Coast, you then go Pan-Am First Class (for surely it must have been with sleeper accommodation, including pillows!) to the northeast.

Obviously the quinine prescribed at Takoradi did not provide the prophylactic effect desired. Perhaps if you'd started on the John Collins sooner and in larger amounts? Does anyone else remember the pint-sized barman in the Luqa Transit Mess in the 60s? His speciality was the John Collins, which he produced in a non-stop whirl so that production always met demand.

Malaria is of course a bad business and many went on suffering from its recurrence long after their service, including one of my own flying scholarship instructors on the Thruxton Jackaroo.

I recall that in Singapore we were recommended to purchase "Peaceful Sleep", a South African insect repellent to take with us on a Jungle Survival Course in the Malayan Jungle. It was well named, providing slumber in our parachute canopy hammocks not only for us but for the local insect life too. I fear now though it would fall foul of later Biological and Chemical Weapons Treaties.

Fareastdriver

28th Jan 2016, 19:35

Does anyone else remember the pint-sized barman in the Luqa Transit Mess in the 60s?

On the floor of the bar was a man sized scar on the pristine tiles. He informed us that he had dropped a bottle of Cyprus brandy and that is what it would do to you.

At that time Saccone & Speed would deliver 200 Rothmans and a bottle of Teachers to the aircraft for 16/6. Should the whole crew have an order then a bottle of sherry was thrown in for free.

JAVELINBOY

28th Jan 2016, 21:37

Came across this story which is worth a read

The Engine that Brought Down a German Bomber | Rye's Own Magazine (http://ryesown.co.uk/german-bomber/)

FantomZorbin

29th Jan 2016, 07:47

Talking of Luqa barmen, did anyone manage to 'drink' the entire top row of Rick's awesome display of spirits at the City Gem(?) in Sliema?

Chugalug2

31st Jan 2016, 12:05

JB:-
Focke-Wulf 190 downed by Railway Engine

Shooting up steam engines is a dangerous game, witness the fate of Heinz Bierwirth in this incident. I'm sure that Jack Stafford would have advised him to go for a train rather than an engine, but at the very least to try to avoid overflying it if he had to. The shrapnel involved from a bursting high pressure steam boiler would have rivalled anything that the Bismark or Tirpitz was capable of throwing at their adversaries. Mind you, the trains that Jack Stafford might go for had a nasty habit of including flat car mounted quadruple 20mm Flakvierling 38's, often in pairs. Very accurate and very dangerous, and certainly not emulated by the Southern Railway in WWII!

Incidentally, the LBSCR D3's are all gone now, along with so many other classes of that company. In a shameless plug for the Bluebell railway, it will soon boast a restored and unique LBSCR Marsh H2 Atlantic. Restored rather than new build as I understand that the Regulator handle is an original item. :)

Bluebell Railway Atlantic Group (http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/locos/atlantic/)

My motive for this post was simply to keep our thread on the Military Forum front page, where it always belongs. My concern is that Danny 42C has always seen to that as our MC. Please check-in Danny to confirm Ops-Normal.

Danny42C

31st Jan 2016, 19:57

Chugalug,

Your:
...My motive for this post was simply to keep our thread on the Military Forum front page, where it always belongs. My concern is that Danny 42C has always seen to that as our MC. Please check-in Danny to confirm Ops-Normal...
Spare my blushes ! Seriously, I think that the best thing for this Thread is to let it do as Old Soldiers should do - not die, but only fade away....

Never did any "interdiction", but AFAIK the idea was to cripple the loco and so to block that stretch of line until a second one could be sent out to tow out the first (when, with any luck, one of your mates could take that out and so ad infinitum............)

Yes, the "pom-poms" were more to be feared than the high-level 3.7-type AA guns. Thankfully, my only experience of the former was of the ones said to have been left behind (in full working order with ammo) at Akyab in the 1942 rout (sorry, planned withdrawal). Didn't take the Jap Gunners long to get the kit working.

Popping a boiler was a bit risky, I suppose (I was told that the best thing to do was to go for the cylinders, as they were the hardest to repair - don't know if it's true). But a flying bit of boiler plate could do quite a bit of damage:
...For tis the sport to haue the enginer / Hoist with his owne petar...

Even the True Blue had to find out the hard way....
...and all three [Skuas] dived to attack the submarine, which quickly dived to safety. Two of the Skuas were damaged by the blasts and had to ditch. U-30 returned to Germany with the crews of the two ditched Skuas [Wiki] ..

Never mind ! Danny.

Chugalug2

31st Jan 2016, 23:43

Thanks for the response, Danny. I now feel somewhat foolish of course, but greatly relieved as well. I seem to remember that Colonel Dan Dare was often required to advise his batman, "Steady, Digby!". Similarly with Jeff Morgan and Lemmy. So I'll try for steady, and as you say, Danny, let this wonderful thread do as it will.

If it is to fade away, so be it, but if so I for one will greatly miss it. It has been an inspiration from the start and I pay tribute to you and your fellow raconteurs. It is an historic document in its own right and will serve aviators for many years to come who wonder, "How on earth did they train so many in such a short time?"

Oh, and thanks for the two-penneth about interdiction. Yes, I can see the point about killing the loco. Line blocked and one less to contend with, etc. Particularly important before and after D-Day when the disruption to the French railways seriously compromised the Wehrmacht's ability to reinforce and supply their army. I'm not sure the same was true for the Luftwaffe's hit and run attacks on the Southern Railway in England, though. The system kept going, thanks to the Victorians' railway mania, for there was always another way round. The viaducts were a challenge, but when damaged were jury rigged speedily though not necessarily very aesthetically.

The Southern was always very proud of engine number 2365. It may have been irreparably damaged, but it hit back and destroyed its adversary, instead of the usual passive one-sided outcome. No doubt it was melted down to become a gun, or a tank, or both. Stirring times!

Danny42C

1st Feb 2016, 00:19

http://juhansotahistoriasivut.weebly.com/uploads/1/3/1/7/13173376/1164156_orig.jpg (http://juhansotahistoriasivut.weebly.com/uploads/1/3/1/7/13173376/1164156_orig.jpg)
Close look on the IWM Anson showing the extra beam machine-guns.

(Story below)

Chugalug,

The loco in question brought down (?) its attacker in its death throes, but how about this for a David and Goliath tale <Juhan Sotahistoriasivut - Etusivu / Frontpage (http://juhansotahistoriasivut.weebly.com/)>
...So, on 1st June 1940 at 8.34 am BST, P/O Phillip ”Pete” Peters of No 500 (County of Kent) Squadron took off from Detling to led a patrol of three Ansons to Dunkirk to support the evacuation of the BEF. The flight was attacked appr. at 10.40 am BST while flying at 50 feet near Ostend by a bunch of Bf109s, the British thought by 9 Bf 109s, from above. Seeing the two other Ansons take the brunt of the attack Peters ordered them to return to Detling, and dropped even lower and throttled back to make his aircraft, MK-V N9732, a difficult target. The navigator Sgt Deryk Cobham Spencer and the Wireless Operator LAC Pepper moved to man the extra beam guns in the windows of the “greenhouse” cabin. Peters immediately turned to the attack and so skillfully maneuvered his aircraft, that he and both the air gunner and the navigator were enabled to concentrate their fire on the enemy. Two Messerschrnitts were seen to crash, and two more appeared to be seriously damaged...

Stirring times, indeed ! Danny.

johnfairr

1st Feb 2016, 08:34

This is my post of a few years back. #1241

A Spitfire Pilot. Part 12.

By this time, most of us were anxious to get as many hours in on Spits as possible and we were often chatting and saying how many hours have you got and so forth and one day we asked one of the Czech pilots, Ruby, how many hours he had. He took his long cigarette holder out of his mouth and said,

“Hmm, about Too Tousant!”

He was a great chap and a terrific pilot and a great player of Cravat, which he taught me and used to take quite a bit of money off me in the process. He would also challenge people to play him at Shove Ha’penny, for sixpence a game and he would come up and say,

“We play for sixpenzz? A schillink is better!”

Long after I’d left 111 Sqn and after I’d come back from North Africa, I met up with my old Flight Commander on 111, Laurie Clifford-Brown and he told me a story of Ruby, which I don’t think has gone too far, which is probably just as well. Apparently when they were stationed at Debden, they used to do Rhubarbs, which as you probably know, are two aircraft, going into low cloud, flying across to France, nipping out of the cloud and shooting up anything you could find, nipping back into cloud and coming home. On this occasion, Ruby and The Honourable Wentworth Beaumont, or Wendy Beaumont as we used to call him, were told to go up on a Rhubarb, so they took off from Debden, flew low over the sea, then up into cloud, came down again over the sea, up to the coast, up over the cliffs and Windy saw a train, which they proceeded to shoot up then tore back into cloud and returned to Debden. When they got back, they were quite surprised to be called into the Station Commander’s office, to find out exactly what they’d done and what they’d been shooting at. So they told the station CO, they’d seen this train, shot it up. Did they do much damage? Yes, quite a bit, back into cloud, no damage to them, and got home. The only snag was, the train they’d shot up, was just off Margate!

It was obviously all hushed up, but Ruby got quite a rocket from the Station Commander. It didn’t affect him a great deal, he pretended he couldn’t understand English, which was very untrue, so they got another Czech pilot in with him and the Station Commander was blasting Ruby up hill and down dale and the other Czech pilot was translating for Ruby, who was just standing there as though he was the soul of innocence. I don’t know what happened to Wendy Beaumont, he probably got a Knighthood for it later on!

One day we were told we were going to have a coach trip to Harwich and Felixstowe to have a look over some Motor Gun Boats and corvettes and whatever else was there and see how the other half lived. It was more than interesting inasmuch as a couple of the gunboats had just come in having shot up some Jerries, just off Ostende, and they were quite pleased with life. When we started chatting to them we found that one the boats had recently picked up one of the chaps from 111 Sqn who’d baled out in the Channel, so it was all very jovial. Some of us were taken out in a corvette, where we were treated like lords by the Naval types, who gave us tins of tobacco, pounds of butter and all sorts of things that we didn’t get, but that they got Duty Free.

Coming back we were supposed to stop at Colchester station for a couple of coffees and a bun, before proceeding back to Debden or North Weald; I forget which station we came from at that time. Anyway, we went into the waiting room and then into the buffet, had our coffee and so forth, went down under the subway and got back into the coach. Now, we’d got to Colchester somewhere about half past eight and by the time we’d wined and dined there, we got back in the coach about half past nine and they found there were six people missing – all the Czech pilots. There was nothing we could do, we just had to sit there. So we sat and we sat till about half past eleven, when, lo and behold, all the six Czech pilots arrived. Naturally the Flight Commander who was in charge, did his nut, started screeching as was his wont, and it turned out that whilst we were on Colchester station and before we’d come under the subway, a train had come into Colchester and just stopped and it stood there for the best part of two hours before moving out. Now the Czechs, not knowing what to do, waited for the train to go; they knew they had to get across to the other side of the station some how or other, and when the train left, they climbed down on the railway, across the lines, up on the other platform and across and back to the coach. When the CO said,

“Why the hell didn’t you come with us?”

All they could say was, “Train in way, yes? Train in way, yes?” and that was the end of that.

Chugalug2

1st Feb 2016, 14:01

Danny, an amazing story and an interesting site that your link takes us to. I see that it features the Fokker C.X of Finnish (squadron?) LLv 10's A? and B? Flights, which carried out 122 dive-bombing sorties out of a total of 135 in the Winter War '39-'40 against the Soviet Union. It lost 3 out of 8 aircraft with 6 fatalities. Yet another example of David versus Goliath!

http://juhansotahistoriasivut.weebly.com/suomalaiset-syoumlksypommittajat-talvisodassa.html

As to Anson N9732's exploits of 1 June 1940, I am inclined to believe the British account rather than the German one. If this sluggish old lady did indeed dispatch 2 of its 109's and survived, the humiliation of I/JG 20 would know no bounds. So for a start she becomes a more impressive Blenheim and the one lost 109 admitted had crash landed near Dunkirk so was unable to deny. The second one claimed by the Annie crew presumably went into the sea unseen, to be "lost" in a more acceptable combat later? I see that the 500 Squadron's Ansons were subject to a local mod carried out free of charge by a local engineering company to provide mounts for the side mounted .303 MGs. Was that which caught out the 109s (rather like the Defiants quadruple gun turret)? So a good trick but not one that you could reliably play twice.

http://juhansotahistoriasivut.weebly.com/deadly-avro-anson.html

Very glad that the LAC WOP got a DFM (together with his Sgt Nav). We had an ex LAC gunner on Battles on the 30 Sqn Assn. His complaint to his dying day was that the two officers up front got gongs, but all he got was told not to fire his gun so much that the barrel overheated when returning fire to attacking 109's!

Danny42C

1st Feb 2016, 20:48

Chugalug (your #8162),
...As to Anson N9732's exploits of 1 June 1940, I am inclined to believe the British account rather than the German one...
Having said that, you have to admit that it does stretch credulity a bit, doesn't it ? It was worth gongs all round, I'd say !
...I see that the 500 Squadron's Ansons were subject to a local mod carried out free of charge by a local engineering company to provide mounts for the side mounted .303 MGs...
They would be Vickers "K" (drum fed) guns. But the wonderful thing was - what you could do with your aircraft in those days without asking permission from anybody ! In the same way we happily discarded the last section of our "greenhouses", and filed off the nuisance catch between throttle and mixture controls on our VVs. There was no comeback from Higher Authority. Nowadays you probably have to put a case up to be allowed to touch-up the paintwork.
...Very glad that the LAC WOP got a DFM (together with his Sgt Nav). We had an ex LAC gunner on Battles on the 30 Sqn Assn. His complaint to his dying day was that the two officers up front got gongs...
The most scandalous example of this is, of course, the award of the first (posthumous) RAF VCs of WWII to F/O Garland (pilot) and Sgt. Gray (observer) for their attack on the Albert Canal bridge with a "Battle". The Wop/AG (LAC Reynolds) got nothing (presumably, he was not part of the decision-taking, and so did not have to be brave to get killed !)

At least they are all buried together - there is equality in death.

You couldn't make it up. Danny.

ancientaviator62

2nd Feb 2016, 07:44

Danny,
nothing changes but the date. For one of the early Falklands Hercules missions the captain got the AFC, the Co, Nav, and the Eng the Queen's Commendation and the Loadmaster was, like the Battle gunner, ignored.

ValMORNA

2nd Feb 2016, 19:59

Rear crew, rear of the queue (when it comes to gongs).

pulse1

2nd Feb 2016, 21:51

Frank, the resident navigator and Senior Mess member told me quite frequently, "whenever things went well, the pilot was given the credit, when they went badly, the nav. always got the blame."

Danny42C

3rd Feb 2016, 00:04

pulse1,

♫.....It's the Rich what gets the Pleasure,
It's the Poor what gets the Blame,
It's the same the Whole World Over -
Ain't it all a Bleedin' Shame ?.....♫ :(

Regards to Frank !

Cheers, Danny.

topgas

3rd Feb 2016, 21:33

I was privileged last night to attend a talk about Kamikase attacks on the British Pacific Fleet in 1945. Rather like 14th Army (the Forgotten Army) the British Pacific Fleet was largely unrecognised.
The author of The Kamikase Hunters had brought three pilots who had served in 1842 Sqn FAA flying Corsairs off HMS Formidable, and an observer who had flown in Avengers with the FAA. It was a fascinating evening, with the author, Will Iredale, introducing some aspect and then asked one or two of the veterans to give their recollections. They talked of the joy of flying the Corsair, the losses of their friends and cabin mates, the aftermath of the kamikaze attack on HMS Formidable (British carriers had armoured decks, compared to the wooden decked American carriers). They carried out attacks on the Japanese mainland, one of them was rescued from a bay off the coast by a US submarine acting as lifeguard. They told of a Seafire pilot shot down on the last day of the war, captured and executed.
One of the pilots later was serving with the New Zealand Army at one stage had a Japanese prisoner of war working party who also formed the fire section. Dealing with a fire (waiting for it to burn out) he asked the fire chief what he had done in the war - reply was that he was a Kamikase pilot, and that he had attended his funeral service with his parents, but fortunately for him the war ended 12 hours later.
One of them said he was 23 at the time, which would make him at least 96, but you wouldn't have guessed it. So, Danny, there are still a few of you around!
The FAA lost 105 aviators in this period, 20% of total FAA losses, and some squadrons were approaching or exceeding Bomber Command rates of loss.

A fascinating evening, a great privilege, and I believe it was recorded for posterity. Order for the book about to be placed with the south American river.

Danny42C

4th Feb 2016, 03:38

topgas,

Yes, we were a good vintage ! Reminds me of the old Kamikase joke:

"What were you doing in the war ?"......"I was a Kamikase pilot"......."So how come you're still here ?"......"I was a chicken-kamikase-pilot !" :ok:

Danny.

Fareastdriver

4th Feb 2016, 11:18

A group of kamikaze pilots having a party. They were celebrating one hundred missions.

Chugalug2

4th Feb 2016, 11:38

topgas, a lot of what you were told chimed with the account written by Norman Hanson in his book Carrier Pilot. Same campaign, same aircraft, different ship, in this case HMS Illustrious. His story started off as so many have done here, but with different locations such as Pensacola and Opa Locka, and different aircraft such as the N3N-3, or the same such as the Harvard (though called the SNJ-3).

Then it was onto the Brewster Buffalo (F2A) before embarking for Britain in the Escort Carrier HMS Avenger for their next phase, the "Knife and Fork" course at RNC Greenwich. They were now RNVR officers who were famously celebrated in the saying:-

The RN are gentlemen trying to be sailors;
The RNR are sailors trying to be gentlemen;
The RNVR are neither trying to be both.

Next was RNAS St Merryn (Nr Padstow, N. Cornwall) with the Fairey Fulmar together with a change from inches of mercury to pounds of boost (the reverse path that was inflicted to we on the Hastings), and briefly Grumman Martlet, then "deck landings" on the runway, before trying it for real in the Fulmar on the training carrier HMS Argus.

Thus it was off to war and RNAS Dekheila as pax on MV Penrith Castle out of Milford Haven, via Freetown, Cape Town, the Gulf of Suez, to Port Said. Certainly the long way round! He had hoped for Hurricanes in the desert but got the Comms Flight of 775 Sqn, flying the Navy brass around in Fulmars. There were however goes in a Tiger Moth (disastrous) and a Gladiator (amidst a veritable amada of Swordfish, Albacores, Fulmars) in a simulated mass torpedo attack on a returning fleet of cruisers and destroyers from Malta. Other than dust ups with the RAF at Heliopolis and Fayid (seems he didn't rate us much), it was all too good to last. Off again by BOAC Liberator via El Adem, south of the Mareth Line, Algiers, and Lisbon (eying up Afrika Korps guys, also in ill fitting civilian suits, also going home). Home leave in Carlisle, back to St Merryn for time on Hurricanes and Spitfire Vs, more home leave, thence Liverpool and RMS Empress of Scotland for Newport News, thence USNAS Quonset Point as Senior Pilot 1833 Squadron, which was to be trained up on the Chance Vought Corsair, this time for a real war in the Far East...

Danny42C

5th Feb 2016, 01:10

Chugalug (your #8171),
...The RN are gentlemen trying to be sailors;
The RNR are sailors trying to be gentlemen;
The RNVR are neither trying to be both...
Reminds me of the similar:
...Football is a gentlemen's game played by hooligans;
Rugby is a hooligan's game played by gentlemen;
Hurling is a hooligan's game played by hooligans...
The FAA
...which was to be trained up on the Chance Vought Corsair, this time for a real war in the Far East...
was poised to take part in a seaborne invasion of Burma in '45, but the operation was forestalled by VJ day. An RN escort carrier, with deck loaded with replacement brand new crated "Corsairs" was passing down the Malabar coast just offshore of us at the time. These were "Lend-Lease" supplies; the US didn't want them back; we didn't want to pay for them; so they were simply bulldozed over the side into the Arabian Sea (and are there yet, AFAIK - a better bet than mythical buried Spitfires in Burma !)

The Waste of War :{

Danny.

harrym

5th Feb 2016, 17:03

<<<< The FAA
Quote:
...........
was poised to take part in a seaborne invasion of Burma in '45, but the operation was forestalled by VJ day. >>>

Danny - surely by this time most of Burma was in our hands with only the narrow strip south of Rangoon still occupied by the enemy, and so it was invasion of the Malay peninsula that was imminent at the time of the Jap surrender.

However you may well be right, as the plan might have been to cut the isthmus at its narrowest part by invading what was left of Burma, thus isolating Malaya itself and Singapore from possible reinforcement. AFAIK our never-utilised plans for whatever was intended have never been revealed and it would be interesting to know exactly what they were; according to what little I can remember from the July-August 1945 rumour mills, the invasion would have been concentrated in the Penang-Butterworth area but we all know what tosh rumours can be.

Anyone out there able to provide enlightenment?

harrym

ICM

5th Feb 2016, 18:10

Harry: Whilst I can't add anything at all as to the potential invasion area, I'm aware that squadrons of 4 Gp, Bomber Command, were transferred to Transport Command on 7 May 1945, as the war in Europe ended. They began to train on Dakotas and acquired a range of parachute-dropping techniques, prior to deployment to the India. That could well suggest that whatever invasion plans existed may well have included an airborne element. VJ Day put paid to that need, but they still went East, initially to provide airlift for repatriation.

Danny42C

5th Feb 2016, 19:49

harrym and ICM,

I may have confused matters by using the word "Burma" loosely (as we did) to apply to everything East of the Bay of Bengal, although we might be referring to India, Burma, Siam or Malaya !

Operation "Zipper" (see Wiki) was intended to go ashore at Port Swettenham (Malaya), and was at sea when Japan surrendered. But, prior to that, there were dark rumours about another attempt (see my p.251 #5051) at the same time, which did not go well. But, as you rightly say: "We all know what tosh rumours can be".

Danny.. :*

Brian 48nav

6th Feb 2016, 08:37

Grand-daughter sitting in Romsey so I'm away from my 'library' and unable to check my statement below.

I'm pretty sure Operation Zipper, the planned re-taking of Malaya, was centred on the small ( at least then ) town of Morib on the west coast, which IIRC is WSW of KL. I guess it was chosen because it was free of mangrove swamp, so no impedance for landing craft and maybe because it would have been very rural in 1945, and there would have been fewer casualties among the civilian population when the Commonwealth navies 'softened' the area up prior to troops making a landfall.

I guess information about likely sites and disposition of Japanese forces had been sent by agents from Force 136 ( ?? ) who were holed up in the jungle. A thoroughly good book to read is F Spencer Chapman's 'The jungle is neutral".

In 1991 Mrs 48N and I took our bikes to Singapore and cycled some way up the west coast and night-stopped at the golf club resthouse in Morib.

Danny42C

7th Feb 2016, 21:52

Union Jack,

Jack,

Mea Culpa ! (and thanks for the PM). Should have replied earlier to your #126 on the "Dumbing Down..." Thread (quoting from my #123), but, as I told Wrathmonk, I'm only a casual visitor there. But yes - Air Marshal Sir Thomas Williams had been far more than a "kindly old" gentleman in his day. One more bullet hole in his "Camel", and that might have been the end of his story.

From the standpoint of a 21-year old, mid-forties seemed then like advanced old age - just as, from where I am now, 70-year olds are nobbut lads in my book. How perceptions change ! :(

Cheers, Danny.

Union Jack

7th Feb 2016, 23:21

One more bullet hole in his "Camel", and that might have been the end of his story. - Danny

But fortunately for him, subsequently for you, and ultimately for us, the rest is indeed history.....:ok:

Jack

Danny42C

11th Feb 2016, 01:39

Through the good offices of our mutual friend Petet, who is well known on this Thread, I've been able to gain sight of copies of the whole wartime F.540 (Operational Record Book) for No. 1340 (Special Duty) Flight, Cannanore. This includes the ACSEA Formation Order No.256 on 6.10.44 until my final entry on 1.3.46. In that I wrote: "Wing Commander Edmondes, on his return from Delhi, made it definite that the Flight's work was finished, and it is anticipated that withdrawal or disbandment will occur in the very near future......the future of Cannanore airstrip is unknown".

You may recall that I've Posted an account of my time there from my appointment in March '45 (p.154 #3071) to the end on 31.3.46.,when I handed over to Flt.Lt. N.A.Bury. ("...The time frame needs some working out now. I must have left in the first few days of May..." p.162 #3237).

Naturally, the first thing I did was to compare the account of what I'd written 70 years before (for most of the F.540 is in my own hand - including the six months before I took over - my predecessor, "Red" McInnis, hadn't bothered !) with what I've Posted here, and the result is shocking ! Not that anything contradicts my Posts - but rather huge gaps have clearly opened up in my memory. For a single example, I've simply Posted that, during the '45 monsoon, we were detached to and flew from the RNAS Sulur (Coimbatore), as it had tarmac airfield surfaces - nothing more.

It now appears that, for several weeks before and after my arrival, the first plan had been to detach us to RAF Madura (now "Madurai"), which is 400 miles SE of the Porkal/Kumbla test sites CDRE used (on the Malabar Coast). This makes absolutely no sense to me. Perhaps they thought that the CDRE would not require our services at all until the dry weather in November. In fact (as it happened) there were plenty of dry days in September and October when we could have worked at Porkal (but not from Cannanore, as that was still waterlogged). If we'd been at Madura, we would have been far out of range, and would have had to refuel (both ways) at Sulur, to reach the Porkal ranges.

But the point is that I had known (and written) all about this at the time, and my log shows a "Madura and return" on 5th May (obviously a recce), but even now I have no recollection of this plan or the flight - and cannot bring any details to mind. It is as if the whole thing has been blocked out of memory, and cannot be recovered, even with the evidence (in my own handrwriting) staring me in the face ! In short the dreaded "Carlstrom Syndrome" (Chugalug will remember) strikes again. And there are several other experiences of a similar nature.

Conversely, many of the things I know had happened are not recorded there at all. Of course, items like our unofficial (and illicit !) self-"conversions" onto the P-47 Thunderbolt (which we only had on loan - and Lord help me if anything had gone wrong !) would not be put in writing. But other interesting bits (like the Bomb Scow [and Chain] saga, our [narrowly averted] attempt to head-butt Fort St.Angelo with our Mosquito, and the s/hawk I took in the engine on take-off) do not appear. But in these cases, there is nothing wrong with my memory. Rather, it would seem that our (all right, my) attitude to the F.540 was: "write a few lines and send the damn' thing off - we can't be bothered with it !"

Reverting to my "Carlstrom Syndrome", do others suffer from this memory block ? Remember, it's not a case of just forgetting, but of a complete inability to recall, even when presented with a photograph (or written or other incontrovertible evidence) of an event. It as if most of the past has been totally erased from memory, and what we fondly recall of our memories is not a continuum, but rather a succession of bright "flashes" against an inpenetrable black background, rather like the "snapshots" in an old album of a summer holiday long ago.

Danny42C.

ancientaviator62

11th Feb 2016, 07:05

Danny,
your experience of the F540 does not surprise me. On all of the squadrons I have served the F540 was usually the secondary duty of a very junior officer. Naturally this task tended to be done very much 'ex post facto'.
This of course would almost certainly ensure that the F540 was not the totally accurate record that many assume them to be.

MPN11

11th Feb 2016, 07:58

I had the misfortune to be the "Designated Scribe" as, contrary to official policy, the task went with my appointment instead of to the officer best suited to the role. However, I had no opportunity to skimp on the input, as AOC MATO took a keen interest in 'wot were written'.

I can only recall endless pages of stultifying and repetitious prose, with items such as "On 23 January 1971, Wing Commander Operations 1, Wg Cdr A. B. See, visited Headquarters Strike Command, RAF High Wycombe, to discuss xxxxxx." Future historians will, undoubtedly, be pleased to know that ;)

Chugalug2

11th Feb 2016, 09:58

Danny, given the choice between reading your own personal memories of those turbulent times and the official record, whether written at the time by yourself or others (such as MPN11 ;-), I'll take your flawed, fallible, and all too human account every time.

When I was 6 I had to walk my younger brother, then 3, to his playgroup before retracing my steps and then heading off further for my own school. That daily hike is etched into my memory, especially because of the then hard winter. I have revisited that journey as an adult. It has shrunk considerably, but the important thing is the impression it made on me then, and as I therefore remembered it.

As you say, we remember what was important to us, not a complete chronological account. I would suggest that is the point of this thread. What was it like to be there in those dangerous and turbulent times? So, Danny42C rather than F540 any day of the week for me!

Walter603

12th Feb 2016, 05:09

I was discharged from Atbara Army Hospital (thankfully) and given passage on a Nile River boat, going to Wadi Halfa. I spent three days on the craft, which was just like a large houseboat. I was in a very bare cabin - only the floor to sleep on, covered by a light blanket. On board was a sizeable troop of British Army Commandoes who had been raiding well behind the German lines in the Western Desert.

They had trekked back southwards after a series of exploits, right into the desert, before striking eastwards and marching until they reached Sudan. They were now on their way back to Egypt, and making the most of a happy return to civilisation. There were noisy and boozy parties each evening, with all the ribald Army songs sung at top pitch.

We steamed slowly northwards through the barren Egyptian land, and it wasn't long before I saw some of the marvellous antiquities of this ancient place. Along the banks of the Nile were the burial places of the Pharaohs, and I wished we had the opportunity to stop and visit them. I tried hard to remember them, where they were and who they commemorated (as much as I could learn from the not-friendly houseboat crew). I think we passed through the Valley of the Kings, there were magnificent huge stone carvings on the river banks, and later on, we passed the Isle of Phyla, where there were more tombs and wonderful carvings.

We arrived in Wadi Halfa on the third day. The heat was still blistering. We had to transfer from the river boat to the train for Cairo. I was lucky to be with an Army Corporal, Ted Willis, who had been with me in the Sick Quarters at Atbara. He had been studying Arabic for some time and could speak it well. He was able to organise a couple of good seats on the train for us, and to call for drinks while we were travelling in reasonable comfort that night.

I think that it took us about 24 hours to get to Cairo. I reported to Air Headquarters, and was reunited with my Air Force mates, first at a city hotel, where they had been billeted for the past two weeks, then very quickly we were transferred to Almazan, a Transit Camp near Heliopolis, a Cairo suburb that also boasted a fair sized airport.

At Almaza we were to languish for what seemed ages, and was actually about 8 or 9weeks. Obviously the Air Force didn't want night fighters. The place was crammed with air crew, both longterm and transient personnel who had come over from the African coast to deliver 'planes, or were on their way to other war zones.

While we were at Almaza with nothing to do, the war was proceeding apace. The Allies were fighting strenuously at El Alamein, only 60 miles west of us, at the furthest point to which the brilliant German Field Marshal Rommel had driven them along the North African coast. We used to see the weary soldiers in the streets of Cairo, some back for a hurried 24 hour or 48 hour break from the fighting. They were stained yellow - clothing, skin and hair - from the sands of the Western Desert. Starved of official information, we anticipated that we would soon be posted to active units.

Meanwhile, we lived in comparative luxury in our tents at Almaza, and were able to go out practically at will. There were no duties for us, except an almost-daily parade and roll-call, which was a farce.

On 23rd October 1942, the Allies struck with an almighty offensive, and the tide was turned. Rommel had almost reached Egypt, where he would have driven the Allies from the Canal Zone and been in a commanding position to take over the Middle East. We heard the shelling in Cairo, and met many fellow aircrew returning from the thick of the fighting. It became galling that we were hanging around with nowhere to go. Trained aircrew, but with inappropriate skills!

Danny42C

12th Feb 2016, 06:12

Walter, your:
...It became galling that we were hanging around with nowhere to go. Trained aircrew, but with inappropriate skills!...
strikes a chord with me ! A bunch of us, some 36 strong, landed in India in late '42. All had come straight from Spitfire or Hurricane OTUs (about 50/50) in the UK, and were keen to put our specialised training to good use. The fighter-trained Hurricane boys were mostly used in ground-attack or as ferry pilots; the Spitfire contingent were even worse off, there were no Spitfires out there at that time, and it was only for the providential arrival, some months earlier, of the unwanted Vultee Vengeances, that we had anything to fly at all !

In fact, I never flew a Spitfire again until I came back in in '49 - seven years later. Luckily, it was like riding a bike - you never forget.:ok:

Danny.

OffshoreSLF

12th Feb 2016, 21:28

Came across this and thought you guys might be interested -

BBC News - Bismarck memories from war pilot Jock Moffat, 92 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-13573526)

Jim

Walter603

13th Feb 2016, 02:15

Well Danny, As I've said many times, it's marvellous that we managed to win the war.

Regards, Walter.

Danny42C

13th Feb 2016, 03:03

You may recall that in my #8179 I said:
...(for most of the F.540 is in my own hand - including the six months before I took over - my predecessor, "Red" McInnis, * hadn't bothered !)..
It seems that that is not strictly true. The first narrative pages in the F.540 start on 1.12.44. and end 22.2.45, written "ex post facto" (thanks, ancient aviator 62) by me, and finish in my Summary on 24.4.45 (I'd flown in and taken over on 7.4.45.) and is headed:
...Compiling Officer 156*** F/O J.D.******* Narrative built up from a Flight Diary kept by J.17891 F/Lt V.B. McInnis, RCAF, now returned to Canada...
My Post p.154 #3071 continues the story of the arrears, telling how:
...In my pending tray lay increasingly irate reminders about this Form 540 from 225 Group in Bangalore..... [McInnis had gone back to Canada]..... and we....["Stew" Mobsby and I]... set to work together with the Authorisation Book, made notes of what anybody could remember, and used imagination to fill in the gaps. Henry Ford was right: history is bunk, and in many cases it's not even history. I smoked a pipe then so I cut the cigars up...[which McInnis had left behind] and fed them in. It wasn't really a success...
It seems that "what anybody could remember" didn't amount to much. For it was not until I read Peter C. Smith's "Vengeance !" nearly 70 years later that I found that McInnis had had quite an interesting time in the six months before I arrived. Here is a lengthy extract from that book (published by Airlife Publishing Ltd 1986 - and I hope that this may be sufficient acknowledgment to them):
...A similar but much more military use was made of sprays, fitted to Vengeances by No.1340 Flight, officialy established at Cannanore on 1 December 1944. Vengeance IIIs, ** were fitted with tanks under their wings and experiments were conducted with the use of poison gas. Later, detailed tests were also made by this unit on the application of aerial smoke-screens for use in the combined operations for the invasion of Malaya, Operation Zipper. 'Bud' McInnis from 110 Squadron was in charge of this Flight, and provided me with very interesting details of its work, which almost resulted in a combat use for the Vengeance after all...***
What follows is almost perfect material for inclusion in this Thread. But why didn't McInnis (McInnes ?) put it into his F.540 - rather than tell it to Mr Peter Smith 42 years later ?
..."I went to the Malabar coast of southern India in November 1944. I was posted to a Flight called the Chemical Defence Research Establishment and the idea was that we were going to duplicate a lot of tests with poison gas which had been conducted in England and western Canada

We were going to do them under tropical conditions and they were going to be assessed accordingly. When I got there the place was a madhouse, the airfield was still under construction, half mud, half grass and the aircraft were going to be Vengeances. I was to be the CO of the unit, and so they promoted me to Flight Lieutenant and the first aircraft to come in were Mk.IVs, which differed considerably from those I had been flying up at the front. These were FD 225, FD240 and FD275. The Mk.IVs were more sophisticated in that they had a more powerful engine, but it was still a Wright Cyclone, and more electronics, even the trim tabs were electric. **** It had a higher carrying capacity in that it was supposed to be able to carry four 500lb bombs. # As for the machine guns, we had four instead of six, but they were 0.5s. The aircraft was also heavily protected with armour plating.

When I found out what my job was going to be, I discovered that it was going to involve a lot of low flying. In fact it had to be very accurate, flying for the most part at heights of only 30 ft. ## This is a far from enviable job in the Vengeance because of the high angle of attack, especially at low speeds. So as soon as I was able to fly off the airstrip, I started a programme of low flying to be able to lay a screen that again was measurable from the ground in the size of the molecules ### that dropped. We practised until we became quite proficient. They supplied me with three aircraft and aircrew who had never been on operations, but we succeeded in developing a pretty good unit.

Exercises and tests had commenced on 19 November 1944 ####, and continued through to the end of January 1945. In February the Flight started work out to [at] Santa Cruz, Deolali and Kalyan @ with Vengeance IIIs (FD240, FD955, FD966 and FD955 [sic]. The reason for the switch was explained by 'Red' McInnes thus: "The Army were still miles behind us in the preparations and my people were becoming pretty bored so I volunteered our services for other purposes as there was great preparation taking place at the time in readiness for the planned seaborne invasions of Burma @@ and Malaya. @@ Thus we took part in exercises which required the laying of aerial smokescreens as the landing craft approached the shore.

These exercises broke the monotony for myself and my men and were quite interesting. And we had quite a few amusing incidents because the Army with whom we were working were, for the most part, in the lower stages of training and had no idea what to expect and they were blundering away. I in turn had to learn all the procedures of laying smoke screens, signalling between the attacking forces, which were invariably late, and so on, and so we had a lot of fun doing it.

The last one I did was the most interesting of the lot. It took place just north of Bombay. I had my three aircraft there and this was to be the final rehearsal before they left and landed in Rangoon [?]. My aircraft were again called on for laying smoke. Two aircraft were to lay a screen along the beach, but one aircraft had to lay the perimeters, in other words, each side of an area about 400 yards from the shore had to have a marker dropped to guide in the ships and the landing craft from the sea.

Well, as CO, all this fell on my shoulders and when I went and had a look at the type of marker I was quite apprehensive. It was a float marker of course and it was perfectly spherical, about the size of an ordinary sea mine about 28-30 inches in diameter. @@@ I had to hook one under each wing and drop them in turn, not only accurately but again from not more than 35 ft. Well, there was no means of practising, no means of knowing how the aircraft was going to handle after one was dropped, and naturally they had to be dropped at two different times, one on each side of the landing area.

So I briefed my men on the straight smoke-screen aand armed-up my aircraft with the smoke floats. An amusing aspect of it too was that, just as I was going in to drop the first one, off my starboard side was a small island which was supposed to simulate an island that was just alive with artillery and ack-ack and it was to be bombed by Hurricanes armed with napalm bombs. I had never seen napalm at this point and I was getting nicely lined up to go in and drop my own smoke marker and concentrating hard, when suddenly the complete island erupted in flame. I can remember what a terrible fright it was for me,@@@@ because I didn't know whether it was going to have repercussions on my own aircraft or not. But the napalm, having such a low explosive factor, didn't affect my Vengeance at all. So I got rid of my first marker and was pleasantly surprised to find very little difference in lowering and dropping the second marker. Again, it is a tribute to the solidness of the Vengeance that you could do this sort of thing and get away with it. This exercise was conducted on 27 March 1945. Two days later I returned to my own base where there was a signal saying that I must report to Bombay for repatriation, so I never flew a Vengeance again."

All this demands a whole series of explanatory or question-type notes - so here goes:

Notes:

* Was it McInnis (my recollection) or McInnes (Peter C. Smith) ? And I always knew him as "Red" (never "Bud" - he was on "B" Flight of 110, having come out on the "Stirling Castle" with me). May still live, but doubtful.

** They were IVs - the numbers McInnis quotes ("FD" series) confirm it. So what happens to my assertion that the IVs never got to India ? In the bin, that's what !

*** Half a mo' ! Six squadrons of the things had been dive-bombing the Japs in Burma from May '43 to June '44. McInnis himself had flown 66 sorties "without a scratch" (as he says in "Vengeance").

**** :eek::eek:OMG ! (and McInnis seems to have forgotten the [most important] AoI change).

EDIT:Why would he notice ? He would never have dived the things at Cannanore or Bombay (any more than I did). On the Squadrons, I did 100-120 practice dives, then 52 operational, but only one "demonstration" after that (and it caused a bit of a gefuffle !) Perhaps the Powers that Be had realised that, for the smoke-laying and marker buoy dropping job at 35 ft, it might be handy for him to see where he was going, so the four-degree AoI on the Mk.IVs would be helpful. But that is a large assumption !

Did they give him Mk.IVs just for that task, then swap him back to IIIs ? Don't know.

# Don't think they ever tried it (the IIIs and IVs were never operational). The IVs had one 0.50 in the back and four (later six) 0.50s in the wings.

## True ! (the lower you are, the harder target you are from ground fire). In his case, they would want the smoke markers and the smoke exactly right.

### Droplets, I think !

#### No record of this period in F.540.

@ All near Bombay.

@@ So there were two ? Could one have been the mysterious one (of which there is now no record) which ended in farce (my Post p.251 #5015). And how were the VVs going to get to target (for there would be no sense in training on the things if they were not to be used in action). With only 200 miles radius of action (they can't fly off a carrier, for steam catapults had not been invented yet), our ground forces would have to be no farther North of the action than that. And, AFAIK, the 14th Army were still much farther away from Port Swettenham on VJ day. That "invasion" was planned with carrier-based air support.

@@@ Peter C. Smith's "Vengeance !" (p.155) has a good pic of McInnis taking off with one smoke float under the port wing.

@@@@ I had a similar moment of terror (my Post p.119 #2373).

Greetings all round, Danny.

pulse1

13th Feb 2016, 07:56

FAA Pilot
Came across this and thought you guys might be interested -

BBC News - Bismarck memories from war pilot Jock Moffat, 92

Jim

A slightly tenuous link from that story to that of Frank, the resident nav and oldest member of the crew room.

There were two pilots who hit the starboard side of Bismark and recent dives have revealed that it was one of these that did the fatal damage. One was Moffat, the other one was Sb Lt Patterson, the father of Frank's son in law. It may have been a World War but, in some ways it seems to have been a small world!

p1

Keeffro

16th Feb 2016, 15:24

I may be teaching my grandmother how to suck eggs, but fans of this thread may be interested in the table at the end of this Wikipedia article, which gives an apparently exhaustive list of Reichsluffahrtministerium aircraft type numbers, with HTML links to the relevant Wikipedia articles where they exist:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argus_As_292

Ddraig Goch

19th Feb 2016, 08:51

1. Fighting through to Kohima: A memoir of war in India and Burma. Michael Lowry. The hardships the Army suffered in this campaign are very well covered in this personal narrative. Danny's Vengeances get an honorable mention in dispatches!

2.Night fighter over Germany - Flying Beaufighters and Mosquitoes in WW2. Graham White. A well written book covering training in the U.S.A. and life as an N.C.O. pilot.

Both add something to the topics raised throughout this wonderful thread.

Before anyone asks I am not on commission:):)

Chugalug2

19th Feb 2016, 10:00

Danny your excerpts from Peter Smith's Vengeance of Bud McInnis's (?) unofficial and rather tardy "F540" are fascinating. Once again they contradict your own recollections (and kudos to you for highlighting that). So the MkIV was in India? So where had they gone 6 months later when you were on the scene? Repatriated? Hardly likely surely? They were surplus to requirements in the UK, target-towing being the last resort for any type that had no other use.

I see that FD240 is quoted both as a MkIV and a MkIII, presumably a typo. Why didn't he put all this down officially at the time as OC the Flight? I suspect that you would know better than anyone else, but perhaps he shared the contempt for Brit Bureaucracy that other 'Colonials' had?

The invasion exercise on the west coast of India (north of Bombay), presumably to better simulate the west coasts of Burma and Malaya, remind us that in 44/45 no-one knew how long the war against Japan would go on for, and that those two invasions would most probably have been mere preludes to the big one, the invasion(s) of Japan itself. The cost in lives would have been counted in the millions if it wasn't for the dropping of Fat Boy and Little Man. Terrible as they were, they brought the war to an end, and thus saved far more lives than they took...

Walter, the frustration that you must have felt after such a prolonged journey and illness to get to Egypt, only to be held in a transit camp while the crucial Battle of El Alamein raged so close to the west, is palpable. Such is war of course, long hours of boredom interspersed with moments of stark terror. No doubt they are yet to come! ;-)

Danny42C

19th Feb 2016, 23:34

Chugalug,

Your Post set me furiously checking my log and the "Vengeance !" entry by "Red" McInnis/McInnes (?). He says he had FD225, FD240 and FD275. All these would be Mk.IVs.

Those I took over on 9 Apl '45 were all FBs (Mk.III):

..........................First Appearance......Last Appearance (in my Logbook)

FB966......................11 Apl '45...............15 Nov '45
FB975......................19 Apl '45........ ........5 Oct '45 *
FB977......................28 Jan '46................4 Mar '46 #
FB986......................16 Nov '45...............12 Mar '46 #.....(my favourite)

until

FD100......................30 Oct '45.................9 Mar '46 #

and nearly had a cardiac arrest ! (FD100 - a Mk.IV !!! ?) until I checked with "Vengeance !" and much to my relief found:

(FD100-FD117 and all FBs are Mk.IIIs, all other FDs are Mk.IV - Peter C. Smith: "Vengeance !")

Note * - would be the one written-off (head-butted by a Barracuda at Sulur). FB986 must have been the replacement for it. What happened to FB966 ? No idea.

Note # - these would be the last three flown to Nagpur for scrap on 12 Mar '46.

So when did "Red" have his IVs replaced by the IIIs ? No idea.
...I see that FD240 is quoted both as a MkIV and a MkIII, presumably a typo. Why didn't he put all this down officially at the time as OC the Flight? I suspect that you would know better than anyone else, but perhaps he shared the contempt for Brit Bureaucracy that other 'Colonials' had?...
Too right ! He hadn't written a word of F540 for any of his six month's Command. Group were foaming at the mouth (as I found only after he'd gone). He dropped me 'in it' and no mistake. Perhaps the box of (not very good) cigars he also left were by way of mollification. Never were F.540s written up so fast - or with such little regard to truth or the use of such vivid imagination !

Your:
...those two invasions would most probably have been mere preludes to the big one, the invasion(s) of Japan itself. The cost in lives would have been counted in the millions if it wasn't for the dropping of Fat Boy and Little Man. Terrible as they were, they brought the war to an end, and thus saved far more lives than they took...
One look at the distances involved shows what a terrible undertaking a seaborne invasion of Japan would have been. It would have had to have been mounted from Okinawa (400 miles to the South), and land based bombers from Shanghai (say) would be 500 miles from landfall in Japan and 1,000 miles from Tokyo. What did we have ? Lincoln - Range: 2,930 mi (4,714 km) with maximum bomb-load 1,470 miles [Wiki] and B-29 - Range - 5,000 mi [Google], plus carrier-based aircraft.

When we did get ashore, the Japanese Home armies would certainly have fought to the last man and the last round. Mercifully (even allowing for the Hiroshima and Nagasaki victims), it was not to be.

Danny.

Fareastdriver

20th Feb 2016, 10:37

When we did get ashore, the Japanese Home armies would certainly have fought to the last man and the last round.

plus all the women and children.

Danny42C

21st Feb 2016, 07:09

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51odpkjsAcL._SX323_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

Wensleydale,

Following your recommendation on #4 on "8 Sqn Query !" Thread, I bought the book - wonderful story and good value at (£1.87 + £2.80 postage !) Condition advertised as "Used - Good", but in fact mint with dust jacket - but I think I got the very last one at that price. Thanks for the steer !

Chugalug will be amused by this excerpt from p.44, as it bears out what he has told us about the pre-CRM days on the flight deck. Our hero has been posted to Dishforth on Hastings........
"...My crew status was second pilot, a misnomer if ever there was one. The second pilot had to lower and raise the undercarriage and flaps when told by the Captain, and, when instructed, turn the pitot heater on and off: absolutely nothing else - no landings, no take-offs, no taxying - the aircraft was in effect being operated by a single pilot and the passengers were one heartbeat from death. Had the Captain died, and most of them looked so old that they looked pretty close to it, I doubt if I could have landed and retained control of the aircraft. The aircraft was very big with four huge Bristol Centaurus sleeve valve engines and it was a tail dragger; if the worst happened, I hoped my four hours on Chipmunks with Flight Lieutenant Peile at the Cambridge University Air Squadron would prove a help...
Later on one of his Squadron COs was a Sqn.Ldr. "Sid" Walker - I'm sure he was a Flt.Lt. with me on 20 Sqdn in '51, and later made Wg.Cdr. IIRC.

Danny.

kghjfg

21st Feb 2016, 08:25

Hi,
Just a quick question, are the veterans here signed up for project propellor this year?
If not, I'd recommend it. There are about 200 veterans being flown in this year the last I heard. I have my veteran rostered for me to fly in, and I believe it will once again be quite some reunion.
A small way in which some of today's pilots can say thanks.

Fareastdriver

21st Feb 2016, 08:29

He must have been one of the students on the initial trials with the Jet Provost Mk1 for the new all through jet training. He wasn't the only one to go on to transport pistons. One of my wings course went from JP3s/Vampires to Beverleys for no other reason that he was good enough at rugby to play for the RAF and Abingdon was where both were based.

Stanwell

21st Feb 2016, 08:46

Danny,
Being, like yourself, a member of English Language Pedants (ELP!), I couldn't help chuckling at the couple of lines
at the bottom of the cover of Haig-Thomas' story.

These tell me that the book was "Forwarded by" the ACM.
So, it seems then, he (possibly) had a bit of a read and passed it on.

Anyway, back to our normal programming..

Chugalug2

21st Feb 2016, 10:16

Danny, timing as to one's service in the RAF is everything, just as it is in life. I was fortunate to be on the first entry to be trained on the JP3/4 and to be posted to Hastings when co-pilots had been elevated from 2nd to 1st pilot status. Unlike Haig-Thomas we were confident in our ability to rise to the occasion if the inhabitant of the LHS, old or otherwise, should become incapacitated. That confidence was built up after the OCU in Squadron monthly continuation training.

No-one had invented CRM back then, but Capt Jack's "F***ing Sow's Ear, Lad!", when one had called "Cut" and stalled her into a perfect three pointer onto the piano-keys for a Tactical Landing, was endorsement enough of one's professional status!

Danny42C

21st Feb 2016, 19:04

kghjfg (your #8195),

This is a noble enterprise, and one more proof (if proof be needed) that the Right Stuff is as Right as ever it was - even if it's a bit different ! I thank you and all your other young(er) flight-donors, on behalf of my entire generation. I myself am far too fragile and decrepit to get much further than my own front door, but "Project Propeller" should be regularly brought to notice on this Thread for the benefit of our less ancient and more supple members.

If you have 200 chaps "on the books", then one way in which they can reciprocate is to get on here and tell us their stories. I take it that few will now be WWII-ers - that is too much to hope for - but "all's grist that comes to this mill !"

One word of caution - check out your "veterans" well ! (the genuine ones will not object, but sadly, there may be others, as we know here).

Cheers, Danny.

Danny42C

21st Feb 2016, 22:06

Stanwell (your #8197),

This is our normal programming - and the beauty of this Thread !

"Foreword by", of course. "Forwarded" ? Conjures up a vision....."In" Tray ...quick initial on File...."Out" Tray... To whom would an ACM "forward" it ? ...God ?

I like the: "Fg.Off. (retd) R.A.F." (after seven years' service ! - "this distinguished R.A.F. Officer's career" ?)

EDIT:With 66 years' seniority as a Flight Lieutenant (retd) R.A.F. , I'm in no position to cast stones !

(All tongue-in-cheek, of course - my grateful thanks to Anthony Haig-Thomas for hours of pleasure from this beautifully written book - I only wish it might have been set up in a larger type for old eyes).

Floriat Etona.

Danny.

Danny42C

21st Feb 2016, 22:56

Chugalug (your #8198),
... when one had called "Cut" and stalled her into a perfect three pointer onto the piano-keys for a Tactical Landing, was endorsement enough of one's professional status!...
In '51, we had a chap on 20 Sqn (name forgotten), ex-QFI on Harvards, whose party trick it was to touch-down in the Station Harvard on the first few inches from the threshold of Valley's 32 and stop abeam the caravan ! (Have put a Vampire down on the old 26 there once myself - but in the teeth of a howling gale).

As you say, the secret of success in the RAF (and in many other professions) is to be born at exactly the right time. Few of us can manage it, unfortunately.

(It's all our parents' fault !).....:(

Cheers, Danny.

BEagle

22nd Feb 2016, 07:20

I've never held Haig-Thomas in any esteem ever since he bragged in the Winter 2009 edition of Prop Swing, the Shuttleworth Vintage Aircraft Society's magazine, as follows:
Finally more trouble from the engineers. One of them (regrettably I cannot remember which or he would be fired) hearing of my fines for parking on double yellow lines sold me, for £100, the previously promised disabled parking disc. It was wonderful - for a week I could park anywhere on the endless empty 'disabled only' parking areas. Then things went wrong. The Chairman of the Bench said it was the worst forgery he had ever seen - before handing out an absurdly large penalty.

Let me get this right - he couldn't remember with whom he'd conspired to obtain a forged disabled parking permit? And if he had, he would have dismissed him? On what grounds?

I have little sympathy for those inconsiderate people who park on double yellow lines, but those who abuse the disabled parking scheme are utterly despicable. So Haig-Thomas got caught and given an 'absurdly large' penalty? Perhaps he'd like to visit Headley Court and explain to the many injured servicemen how 'wonderful' it was for him to park in disabled-only spaces - and why the fine for getting caught was 'absurdly large'?

I most certainly won't be buying his book.

Brian 48nav

22nd Feb 2016, 09:37

Damn! On the strength of other posters' comments I ordered the book from Amazon yesterday morning. I'll have to try and put Beagle's post out of my mind when I read the book.

Danny42C

22nd Feb 2016, 13:49

BEagle, the:
...endless empty 'disabled only' parking areas...
If only this were true ! My little supermarket/filling station on the hill has just one disabled space right outside the store door. As a blue badge holder, I'm just able, with the aid of a stick, to get in from it and grab a trolley for balance before I keel over.

Many a time, I find this slot is occupied by a no-badge car "just for a few moments", although there are empty spaces no more than 20 paces away he/she could have used. I am firmly of your opinion - this inconsiderate behaviour is beneath contempt, and I'm happy to say that, when I was able-bodied, I never did it myself.

You do a service, highlighting this - thank you !

Danny.

Null Orifice

22nd Feb 2016, 15:03

Danny (et al):

H-Ts book gives : The aircraft was very big with four huge Bristol Centaurus sleeve valve engines and it was a tail dragger

I could swear that all those spark plug changes I carried out on the Hastings were inserted into Bristol HERCULES engines - unless anybody knows something I don't! :E

Fareastdriver

22nd Feb 2016, 17:57

A bit confused with Blackburn's block of flats.

Danny42C

23rd Feb 2016, 23:39

February 24th is a date I'll not forget in a hurry ! - for on this day 72 years ago I came within a whisker of the Pearly Gates. I told my tale here in three separate Posts some 3½ years ago, but as many of our newer readers may not have read the originals, I've now edited and combined them into one story (and added an Epilogue). Even so, it's still much too long for a single Post, so I've split it into two parts. Here's Part I:

Today in '44, in the Arakan in Burma. "Stew" Mobsby and I took off on our 53rd sortie, flying No. 3 (wingman on the left of) the leader, Bill Boyd Berry. We were going some way down south (Donbaik ?), and the formation was climbing more slowly than usual, as we had plenty of time to get up to our bombing height. I think we took off from Ramu II, but cannot be sure - there were so many places, we were moving all the time and they all looked the same.

So quite soon after taking off we passed over the battle area (the Second Arakan campaign was reaching its climax) fairly low. Johnny Jap would take a pot at us, of course, but then he had a go every time we came back from a sortie and did no serious damage, although it was not unusual for aircraft to land back with small arms hits. On this occasion, I felt and heard nothing out of the ordinary, and neither did "Stew". Twenty minutes into the climb, I had a look round the instruments. Oil pressure was zero.

Engines don't run long without oil, and I didn't fancy life as a Japanese prisoner. I signalled BBB (drew my hand across my throat, and pointed to the engine - we kept R/T silence), and started back. I warned "Stew" to be ready to bale out; we were at 3,000 ft and could easily manage it. The next few minutes were nail-biting, but then we were back over friendly territory again.

I was thankful, but starting to have doubts. The engine was still running smoothly. What was more, neither oil nor cylinder head temperatures were rising. I began to think that all I had was a dud oil gauge. With every mile my suspicion grew. By the time base was in sight (there was nowhere closer to land), I'd convinced myself. My screen was clear of oil, so the prop can't be throwing it out. "Stew" said we weren't making smoke, so we can't be burning it through the engine. The two temperature needles hadn't shifted. It had to be the oil pressure gauge, and I felt a bit of a fool.

Even so, I might have put it down off a straight-in approach, but these were awkward and difficult in a Vengeance because of the very poor forward view at low speeds. So we normally flew circuits. As there seemed to be no hurry, I did so now. Bad mistake! Downwind, I dropped the wheels and started my checks. The engine seized.

It had shown no sign of distress. Now there was just dead silence and a stationary propeller blade staring at me. The Vengeance was a poor flying machine and no glider at all. It went down like a brick. It was doing just that from a thousand feet - too low to bale out and no time even to think of dumping bombs. I took a last look at the strip, but it would have been suicide to try to get in from where we were with no power.

Nothing for it but crash-land straight ahead. I yelled "Brace" at "Stew", lifted the wheels and cut the main switch, to stop the fuel pumps and isolate the battery to avoid sparks. I can only remember thinking "I must keep 150 on the clock to have any hope of rounding-out at the bottom". Then my mind goes blank.

A mile or so away was an RAF Repair and Salvage Unit. I would think that most of its trade was in salvage. They did not have to go far to collect mine. As far as they could see, I was making for their clearing, but sank into trees before I got there. I must have rounded-out all right, for the aircraft survived touchdown to go skidding through the open jungle. They told me that the tail unit came off first, then trees removed both wings. So far things may have been fairly tolerable inside, if a bit bumpy, for we were having a ride in a sort of high-speed bulldozer. Then the engine broke out.

Deprived of its battering-ram, the relatively light remaining structure hit something hard, broke apart just aft of the gunner's cockpit, and stopped abruptly in the shape of an inverted "V". The front fuselage and cockpits remained intact, the bombs stayed good as gold and the fuel did not go up. Thank God for the brick-built Vengeance! (anything else would have disintegrated and killed us!)

We'd had a lifetime's entitlement of luck in the last few seconds, but were in no position to appreciate it, both knocked out in the crash. My luck had stretched even further. I'd been wearing my "Ray-Bans" under my helmet, with my goggles pushed up on my head. When we hit the final obstacle, the cable retaining my shoulder harness snapped and I jack-knifed face first into the instrument panel. (The P-40 recently found in the Saraha has the "Needle & Ball" glass smashed. It's dead centre of the panel: it's the only broken instrument glass - (cf 682al's pic on #2709 p. 136) - every picture tells a story).

By rights, the glass lenses should have shattered into my eyes and blinded me. But, as far as we could make out, the goggles had taken the first impact, in the next millisecond the lenses must have jerked out of the frame and away from my eyes. The frame buckled, scooped the bridge off my nose and ploughed into my forehead and left cheek. And that was the total extent of my injuries !

"Stew" had been facing forward, braced head down on his navigation table. He broke a bone in his left wrist and got a bang on the nose, leaving him with an odd disability - he couldn't smell. This was no great loss out there and he got scant sympathy on that account, but it earned him a nice lttle lump sum from the War Pensions people later.

The RSU people ran over to pull us out; watchers at the base had seen us go down and sent the camp ambulance. I came to briefly as they were loading me on a stretcher, and remember the hot sun on my face. I couldn't see as my eyes were full of drying blood. "How's Stew?" - "He's all right". I looked a lot worse than I actually was, and that had an amusing sequel.

I came to fully in a Mobile Field Hospital at Cox's Bazar. They'd had mostly malaria and dysentery cases, and were quite chuffed at getting two proper "battle" casualties. "Stew" got a big cast on his arm and his nose shrank to normal size over the next few weeks. The enthusiastic medics sewed up my face and a surgeon made up a new bridge for my nose out of a patch from my thigh. Kept in place by a "saddle" of dental plastic, this wasn't perfect, but has done very well.

We were looked after quite efficiently by a staff of RAF nursing orderlies, fiercely dragooned by a P.M. RAF Nursing Service Matron for the three (I think) RAF wards. (The Army, of course, had the lion's share of the Field Hospital: it was an Army surgeon who did my job). We must have spent about a month there, then "threw away our crutches" ("Stew's" cast and my nose 'saddle'), and prepared to go off to Calcutta on convalescent leave. :ok:

(With me so far ? - Part II in a day or so)

Danny,

Geriaviator

24th Feb 2016, 17:10

Danny, of course we're with you! Like fine wine, your stories improve with age. Please keep them coming.

GlobalNav

24th Feb 2016, 17:20

I notice several suggestions to our senior veterans, including Danny, to attend this event. Like Danny, I am sure there are several who are physically hindered from traveling and so forth.

So I wonder, has any attempt been made to offer online "web presence" such as Webex, video conferencing or such? It seems like a headset, microphone and perhaps web camera in the hands of men like Danny could make this possible, if the meeting host could accommodate it.

After reading the posts by Danny and others on this forum, it would be a pleasure and honor to hear their voices and know that they could be part of such a gathering.

smujsmith

24th Feb 2016, 18:46

Danny,

Many congratulations on reaching 72 years since your "accident". I remember reading the original posts and re read it with all the respect it deserves. The 100th anniversary should be worth hanging around for Sir, put your best efforts in to that I say.

Best

Smudge :ok:

ValMORNA

24th Feb 2016, 19:47

Danny,

Indeed a fortuitous day for you, the 24th, as it is today for an ex-colleague of yours on the Vengeance, Sqdn Ldr A M Gill (Arthur) 84 Squadron, who celebrates his 100th birthday today. An excellent profile shown on BBC Midlands news this evening.

Danny42C

24th Feb 2016, 21:48

Global Nav,

First, let me thank you (on behalf of all veterans) for the kind words said. As an Arnold School graduate (Class of 42C), I still recall the kindnesses shown to us by all Americans in those turbulent times - now a distant memory.

As a veritable babe-in-arms in IT affairs, I hesitate to put my oar in on a discussion of this basically very attractive idea. Essentially, as it seems to me, it would aim to create the "Virtual Crewroom in Cyperspace" of my imagination. But immediately difficulties crowd in. For a start, here in the UK, we work on a 11-13 hour time difference from our antipodean cousins: The W. Coast of the US has a 9 hr difference one way, Tokyo a 9hr the other from us. Even your Washington is 5 hrs behind us.

As for technical difficulties, Wiki points out:
...WebEx is not a free platform like WiZiQ or Moodle and fees are paid per "host" of a classroom or a meeting. Some organizations, however, have started to integrate WebEx with Moodle.[12][13]...
and
...Appearance consciousness: A second psychological problem with videoconferencing is being on camera, with the video stream possibly even being recorded. The burden of presenting an acceptable on-screen appearance is not present in audio-only communication. Early studies by Alphonse Chapanis found that the addition of video actually impaired communication, possibly because of the consciousness of being on camera.[22]..
and
...Signal latency: The information transport of digital signals in many steps need time. In a telecommunicated conversation, an increased latency (time lag) larger than about 150–300 ms becomes noticeable and is soon observed as unnatural and distracting. Therefore, next to a stable large bandwidth, a small total round-trip time is another major technical requirement for the communication channel for interactive videoconferencing.[23]...
and
...The issue of eye-contact may be solved with advancing technology, and presumably the issue of appearance consciousness will fade as people become accustomed to videoconferencing...
But the most fundamental objection is a more visceral one. PPRuNe (IMHO) in general owes its enormous popularity, (and on this Forum and Thread in particular), from its policy of complete anonymity. Safe in our little burrows and hiding behind our "callsigns", we can chat on equal terms, irrespective of age or physical disabilty, our appearance, our circumstances, or our former rank and status (or lack of it !) And think of the possibility of unfortunate or rancorous words being spoken (for how could you moderate it ?)

I would vote to keep it the way it is - but it's an appealing idea all the same, Global Nav (thank you for it), and others may have different ideas. What do you say, chaps ?

Danny42C.

GlobalNav

24th Feb 2016, 22:45

Danny, as always, I respect both your wishes and your wisdom on the topic. So let us carry on without voices, names or faces. Eagerly awaiting Part II. 🍻

Danny42C

24th Feb 2016, 22:46

Geriaviator (#8208),

Thanks ! Second Part tomorrow, DV.

As you see, your pic has taken "Caption Competition" by storm ! The Cheese puns are getting worse and worse, it's edam shame !

Danny.

Danny42C

24th Feb 2016, 22:48

Smudge,

I'll do my best to reach the "ton" (or die trying !) A brother-in-law of mine has just left us, with 101 on the clock, so I live in hope.

Danny

Danny42C

24th Feb 2016, 22:54

ValMORNA (#8211),

Well done, Sir ! (there's hope for us all).

Squadron Leader Arthur Murland Gill was CO of 84 Sqdn; I don't remember our having much to do with them but he signed as CO of 110 in my log (Apl.'43), so they must have been with us at Madhaiganj then. There's a lot about him and some fine pics in Peter C. Smith's "Vengeance !".

Will try to get it on iplayer, but not much hope as we're on Tyne-Tees. :*

Danny.

EDIT: Success ! Never knew he went so far back (pre-war). Hope I look as well as he does if I ever make 100. First time I ever heard "Dive Bomber Pilot" being used in association with the RAF by the BBC.

Thanks, ValM. D.

Chugalug2

25th Feb 2016, 12:14

Thank you ValMORNA, just caught the Midlands Today 24th February Edition on iPlayer (just being the operative word as it is due to be pulled in approx. 5 hours!). Arthur Gill fills the "and finally..." slot. As Danny says a remarkable man with a remarkable story (reminds me of someone ;-). I hope that Tyne and Tees will make a similar fuss on your centenary, Danny!

BBC One - Midlands Today, 24/02/2016 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07182w2)

Danny, your "it must be the gauge" tale is a salutary one for all aviators and, as has been said already, improves greatly with the telling. I too keenly await the next instalment...

You have a very good point re anonymity on PPRuNe. All here are equal, though on this thread I suggest that some are rightly more equal than the rest of us! :E

Yes, there is some trolling on other threads, cyber bullying even at times, but on the whole we all share a passion for aviation and the story of how it has evolved over its relatively brief life-time. In other words the thread itself is the important consideration rather than those who might contribute to it (again with certain notable exceptions!). I for one feel more comfortable in that arrangement. It works well, so why fix it?

Fareastdriver

25th Feb 2016, 17:06

Danny et al.

As this is thread dealing with history I have a suggestion.

When I was in China I wrote a book about a imagined pilot on Valiant tankers in the 1960s. The story was based on fact but was embellished by lots of 'whoopee' which was the standard, and hopefully still is, for young Air Force pilots at the time. I copied the book to several people I knew including some contributors to PPRuNe with zero reaction apart from Tankertrashnav who was a bit unreceptive to the rumpty tumty bits.

I can, should my audience, who have read my recollections of China, agree, post with the fiction removed so that it is a chronicle of active flight refueling from the tanker pilot's point of view.

I have the advantage through age., Inasmuch that most, if not all, of my compatriots of that time are dead. That being, a vast majority were ex WW II aircrew that were reaching the end of their careers and are not likely to object, in fact they would be grateful that whatever they did is being recognised.

What do you think; give it a go?

Geriaviator

25th Feb 2016, 17:29

I copied the book to several people I knew including some contributors to PPRuNe with zero reaction apart from Tankertrashnav who was a bit unreceptive to the rumpty tumty bits.Thank goodness for the unreception, FED, otherwise you may well have caused younger pPruners to overboost with disastrous results :eek: Fortunately I was not affected as certain of my components no longer remember what such rumpty tumpty was all about.

But as one of your recipients of Shiksha I plead guilty, I could not work out the mysteries of hosting an e-book. I enjoyed it immensely and as a longtime reader of this great thread I am sure everyone else would enjoy it too. Please post the lot, how about a short chapter every couple of days?

Fareastdriver

25th Feb 2016, 18:35

Here goes. For the Mods this will never be published.

It was a brilliant shot, I had to admit. John had broken the pack quite well leaving the cue ball almost against the baulk cushion with one red requiring a very fine cut and another blocking the black to the top right pocket. I had cut the red in with loads of back and side screw and had nudged the red clear of the black leaving me in the ideal position to pocket it and screw back into the pack. John tapped his cue on the floor in applause as I rammed the black against the pocket rail and split the pack wide open with at least five reds begging to be potted. This is going to be a good break, I thought, visions of a 147 appearing in my mind.

“Fareastdriver, Sir,” it was the hall steward, “telephone call for you.”
Bugger it. I thought, ‘I’m going to lose my rhythm now,’ I went into the hall and picked up the phone. It was my flight commander.
“How would you like to go to India?”
“India!” I gasped. “What an earth for?”
“You know this nonsense that the Chinese and Indians are having about their border region. They’re sending out a squadron of Javelins to show Commonwealth solidarity and we, and 214 Squadron, are going to tank them out. Davo Ward’s wife is supposed to pod next week and as you have not done an overseas trip yet I want to send you out there instead of him. There’s a brief after lunch, see you then.”

There was a click as the phone went down that suggested that I had no choice. I went back to the snooker room with thoughts of India running though my mind. I lined up for the planned red in the centre pocket and to my despair it brushed the corner and rolled to the centre of the table. John practically ran to the other side and started knocking up a score in multiples of eight. 104 came up and then he cleared all the colours. Damn it, I thought, they should have all been mine.
“Must have been a serious call for you to have missed that?” He surmised.
“They want me to go to India.”
“Oh yes, they were talking about that this morning.” John was 55 Squadron’s adjutant when he wasn’t playing snooker or flying so he went with his boss to the morning operations briefings.
“Apparently they have already sent out some people from Mareham, (214 Squadron’s base) to sort out the other end. As far as I know your squadron is going to Bombay and the Javelins are going to some place in the north.”

I went back to the hall and phoned up Operations. I was supposed to pick up a Victor crew with the Anson after they had ferried their aircraft down to Boscombe Down. Leaving at the same time as them usually meant that they would be ready to jump in as soon as I arrived. I spoke to the Warrant Officer who knew in what state and where all the aircraft were.
“There’s no hurry,” He replied to my query, “The Victor needs a nosewheel tyre change and won’t be ready ‘till about four; I’ve told your blokes at the station flight already.” The immediate problem solved I went into lunch.

At least something was happening in my Air Force career. I had joined the RAF in Rhodesia in 1960 with thoughts of hurling around the stratosphere in Hunters or Lightnings but at the end of flying training, I, with hordes of others had been sent off to the V Force as co-pilots. As usual there were too many and I had ended up on a Valiant tanker squadron as a surplus pilot. I had done all the training required but as I had not been allocated to a crew I filled in for the sick, lame and lazy. Fortunately there had been a requirement for somebody to fly the station’s communication Anson so that had kept me fairly sane whilst they looked for a slot for me. Apart from that many hours at the mess snooker tables had brought me up to a standard that many champions would envy. The days of flying around the world refuelling aircraft and looking after the needs of WRAF officers and nursing sisters who did not want to get a reputation on their own base had, hopefully, yet to come.

We didn’t have a briefing room on 90 Squadron. The hanger probably did when it was built in 1937 but then squadrons only had a couple of dozen aircrew and not twelve five man crews that a Valiant squadron had. Apart from the crew room which was never fully utilised all the rest were offices. The place was packed, a blackboard in one corner had five crew lists chalked on it and on the other side was a map of Europe and the Far East with a modified Javelins to Bahrain refuelling route. Dave was there, only to see what he was going to miss. His crew was a good bunch, the youngest on the squadron and we all got on well together. I had not done a lot of flying but I had breezed through my tanker conversion course without any trouble so they and I had no qualms about my performance. .

“Gentlemen please,” it was the boss so the place fell silent. “The station intelligence officer will brief you on the situation in India.”
Bill looked surprised. He had only prepared a military brief and he knew little more about the political situation than that he had already read in the morning paper.
“As you all know,” he started, we didn’t but not that it mattered. “The Chinese and Indian governments are in dispute over their border in the Himalayas. This has given rise to fisticuffs and now they are beating bigger drums. The Indian Air Force has no all-weather fighter capability so the government, as a sign of support, are detaching 23 Squadron to India until the dispute is settled.” Having bluffed his way through the political bit he then went on to describe the relative strengths of the opposing air forces.
“The Indians have a few Mig21s but it is predominately Hunters, Gnats, with a couple of dozen Canberras. The Chinese air force was almost all Mig17s with IL28s as their bombing force. In other words, if the weather is bad only the Javelins will be able to fly.”
Having summed up yet another one of the British Government’s futile gestures he handed us back to the boss.

The boss started with alarm. His idea of briefing the squadron was for everybody else to tell him what was going on. Delegation of responsibility was his forte. He passed the hot potato to my flight commander. Les was good, he was on top of everything. He explained that the whole exercise was a 214 Sqn show but because of the size and the urgency we were making up the numbers. It was immediately obvious why the boss wasn’t going. Relations between the two squadron commanders were somewhat less than cordial.

The five crews were selected because it was their turn to do an overseas detachment. Four crews would fly the first two days to Bahrain and the fifth crew would be pre-positioned to fly the No1 Tanker to Bombay. As it was a relatively short distance from Bahrain to Bombay the Javelins would be topped up with fuel just before the coast so that they could get cross the Indian sub-continent. We would remain at Bombay on the assumption that the dispute would be of short duration and then we would bring the Javelins back. Should it not be sorted in a week or so then we would return to the UK leaving 214 to bring them back in slow time. He looked around at the more elderly members of the squadron.
“There is no question,” he said firmly, “of the aircraft reverting to the bomber role and being used in operations.”
The wrinkled faces relaxed, going to war was the last thing they had in mind for their pre-retirement programme.
#
We had two days to plan. The first four Javelins were leaving tomorrow and the last four of the twelve would be taken out by us. The fact that it would be spread over three days was because of the time that it would take to generate tankers and fighters. 214 Sqn. were frantically rebuilding an aircraft on major servicing and 23 Sqn. were pulling out the two war reserve Javelins to make up enough serviceable aircraft. The fifth crew would be going out tomorrow in a Britannia with the ground party.

Ron, our Nav leader was next. He explained the route and how the refuelling brackets had been calculated for the Bahrain-Bombay leg. The route out to Bahrain was standard. It had been used before on a long range Javelin detachment so it was known to work. The procedure was that the Javelins would leave Leuchers and join up with the first tanker at Spurn Head. After they had been being topped up the other three tankers would join and then relieve No1 tanker of all his surplus fuel. No1 would return to Honington, refuel and fly independently to Akrotiri in Cyprus, the first night-stop. He would do the same thing next day out of Akrotiri which is why the crew would be relieved in Bahrain because of all the flying they had done. On crossing the Mediterranean coast No2 would tank up the four Javelins and proceed to Luqa in Malta, refuel and carry on to Cyprus. No3 and us, No4, would do a pair each just before they got out of range of Luqa, which would leave all of us with enough fuel to get to Akrotiri. The Valiant wasn’t designed to be a tanker. Even with a bomb-bay tank fitted it only could carry 78,000 lbs. of fuel and at 8,000 lbs./hr it used 40,000lbs just getting to Cyprus.

There then followed the usual clarifying of minor details.
“What’s the LOA (local overseas allowance) in India?” somebody asked.
Les shuffled through some yet unread signals.
“It’s nine rupees a day.”
Nick picked up last weeks Times and flicked through to the financial section. He looked at the exchange rates in horror.
“For Christ’s sake, it’s thirteen rupees to the pound. That makes it,” a fractional pause, “13s 10d.” An almighty wail went around the room.
Bill piped up. “They couldn’t have changed the rate since 1947 because that was what it was when I left India.”
The boss interjected. “I will sort this out this afternoon, if there is nothing further we had better get on with it.”
I looked at my watch, three-thirty. This was going to be difficult, doing the fuel planning and flying the Anson at the same time.
Davo came over. “I’ll do the planning for you; you had better do your flight.” We cleared it with the boss and I left them to it.

The Victor was ready on time but it was five o’clock before we got airborne. Fortunately I had enough fuel to return as the civilian refuelling crew at Boscombe had gone home. As Honington was a V Force station it had a twenty-four hour canteen in operations so I had dinner there when I got back. It was about nine when I went into the bar for a few beers.

ValMORNA

25th Feb 2016, 19:10

Danny, your #8216 . . .

As a footnote, Arthur Gill is the President of 84 Squadron Association, of which I am a proud member.

VM

Danny42C

25th Feb 2016, 19:28

(Part II)

First task would be to secure our belongings. The ambulance crew had reported back to the Squadron what they'd seen when they'd picked us up, but of course it had taken them some time to reach us and I'd been bleeding like a stuck pig all over everything in the meanwhile. So the tale they told was pretty gruesome; the general opinion was that they'd seen the last of me.

No use my kit going to waste. My DIY bed was a prize legacy, they had a draw for that. The rest was shared out among the others; there was no use trying to send stuff after me, it wasn't worth it and the chances were that it wouldn't reach me if they did. (This was standard procedure - anything personal or of value would, of course, be secured for safe keeping by the Adjutant or Intelligence Officer - we are talking about clothing, bedding and towels etc., which you could quickly and cheaply replace).

Six weeks later the bad penny turned up. A shamefaced procession turned up with various items of my kit: "Sorry about this, old man - didn't think you'd be needing it any more!" And of course I recovered my bed - not that I would need it for long, for all six Vultee Vengeance Squadrons were ordered to cease operations in June '44, and we would shortly be moving out from the Arakan (as it happened, never to return).

"Worse things happen at sea !"

That done, we went off to Calcutta for our leave (transport no problem, you could always cadge a ride on one of the many 'Daks' which were continually shuttling Cal-Chittagong-all points- east and back. I will not describe our leave now, as I plan to make a separate Post out of Calcutta; it is worth a Post on its own

Back on the squadron, the engineers debated. The engine troubles which had plagued the first Vengeance the year before had mostly been cured, and the most likely explanation for the failure was a lucky shot hitting an oil tank, cooler or line. But in the condition I left the aircraft, it might have been hit by a 3.7 AA shell and look no worse ! They returned an open verdict.

In an earlier Post I have worked out that the Sqdn finally moved to Samungli (Quetta) on 6.8.44, so it stayed on in the Arakan doing nothing much for three monsoon months. Early In that time it must have left whatever 'kutcha' strip it was on and fallen back on a paved strip (I think Chittagong or Dohazari) or they would never have got the aircraft out of the mud to fly away. And both these places were rail points, from which the ground party could move. I have only vague memories of that time, but I flew a couple of times (non-op) in July, and I think I was loaned to 244 Group in Chittagong to do some paperwork, so I wasn't altogether idle.

Once the decision had been taken to stop VV operations, there was absolutely no reason to leave us in the Arakan a day longer. For although there were dozens of 'kutcha' strips, there were relatively few with a paved runway and drainage: these should have been left for the Hurricanes, Beaufighters and Mohawks who could still do useful work even in monsoon conditions. We were just cluttering up the place.

We became entitled to a "Wound Stripe" apiece. This daft and short-lived thing may have been peculiar to India. I never heard of it after I came back. The idea was similar to the American "Purple Heart", at which we poked much fun (it was said that you could get it for being nicked by the camp barber!) But it was entered on our records, and I seem to remember that I had an inch-long gold lace stripe to sew on my khaki tunic sleeve. As we never wore tunics (only bush jackets or shirts), it didn't seem worth bothering with.

"Stew" and I had been amazingly lucky: we both knew we'd live the rest of our lives on borrowed time. It's a pity that no photographs were AFAIK, taken of the wreck - it would have been quite a memento in my logbook. But then, after all, down the years I've had a reminder every time I've looked in a mirror!

(He and I parted soon after this, as I was posted away from Samungli, but were reunited the following year, when he rejoined me as my "Adjutant" in Cannanore. Having come out to India much earlier, he went home earlier. I looked him up once (in Southend) after the war, but then, I'm sorry to say, we lost contact).

Many years later I watched a TV documentary about an oil sheikh's new racecourse complex somewhere in the Gulf. The architect was mentioned. There couldn't be two of that name! He appeared. Incredulous, I looked at this little, bald, fat chap - a far cry from the wiry young man with the Byronic looks I remembered. (Ah, the ravages of time !)

There is a present-day slant on the tale of my crash. In any forced landing a pilot has to make the best of a bad job. He can do no other. In two cases which have hit the headlines in the last year or so (the 777 which just managed to flop over the fence into Heathrow and the Airbus ditched in the Hudson river), the pilots concerned have been surprised to find themselves publicy fêted as "heroes".

My case was the same as theirs (in kind, though much smaller in degree). Naked self-preservation was the name of the game. Three questions arise: Did I do a good job? - Yes! Was I "incredibly" (in the true sense of that now much abused word) lucky? - Yes! Was I a "hero", in any sense? - Sorry folks, but No! I did what had to be done, and so did they, and we all got away with it, and there's no more to be said.

That's all for the moment, Goodnight, all, Danny42C.

---------------------

EPILOGUE
________

Since that February morning in Burma, long, long ago, I've often looked back on it and it's become obvious where I went wrong. I should never have decided, in the absence of other symptons, that the oil pressure gauge was at fault. I should have "played safe", assumed the worst and acted accordingly. I should have hung on to my 3,000 feet to the end, dumped my bombs "safe" (there was no provision for dumping fuel), and perhaps lowered 20°-30° flap (which would have given me a lttle more gliding distance if the engine failed).

The coast was not far away, I could have followed the shoreline North until I was close to base. There were miles of sandy beaches. Apart from a few inshore net fishermen, these would be mostly empty, if necessary a wheels-up landing should be easy.

Then I should never have come down into the circuit, but kept my height until overhead the strip (as it happened, the engine would have kept going till then), and used the "90° Left" or "270° Left" procedure taught me in the U.S. for forced landings. (How many times had I practiced this at Carlstrom Field in Florida !) From 3,000 ft, wheels down and 120-130 mph, it should have been child's play to dead-stick it down at one end of the strip or other (there wasn't much wind anyway, just a light sea breeze across the runway in any case).

Instead, you know what happened ! It was amazing luck that I wasn't killed (but if I had been it would have been my own fault). But poor "Stew" (who survived with me) wouldn't have deserved to die on that account.

But then, isn't hindsight a wonderful thing ?

Danny.

* * *

Fareastdriver

25th Feb 2016, 19:45

C'est La Guerre.

GlobalNav

25th Feb 2016, 20:56

@Danny: "We became entitled to a "Wound Stripe" apiece. This daft and short-lived thing may have been peculiar to India. I never heard of it after I came back. The idea was similar to the American "Purple Heart", at which we poked much fun (it was said that you could get it for being nicked by the camp barber!)"

Interesting comment. I understand that the circumstances leading to this decoration can vary widely and perhaps lend some to treat it as a mark of nothing more than "I was there". I know you meant no disrespect, but personally I carry it in higher regard than your comment suggests.

I am not a recipient. I honor those who did receive it for the reminder that combat service in defense of freedom and our flag (or King) carries tangible risk. Those who receive this award have been in some form of peril in the service of their country and to some degree it cost them, some much more than others. I am grateful to those who served, but my hat is off to those especially who paid some price, physically, and wear the Purple Heart. And, as in your case, my hat is off to you, honored ally, as a recipient of the Wound Stripe.

p.s. Enjoyed Part II, glad for the outcome and grateful you are able to describe it to us so many years later.

Respectfully

Danny42C

26th Feb 2016, 00:11

GlobalNav (your #8224),

Our two Air Forces have fought together, bled together and died together in the same causes for far too long for me to make serious pejorative remarks about the customs and traditions of your service ! Please accept my apology for any unintended offence given in this case.

But there has always been a friendly rivalry between us, and this is often expressed in jocular fashion. Our reaction to one of our own people who was wounded or injured in action in WWII was likely to be either: "Shouldn't have joined if you can't take a joke !", or "Well, you're still alive aren't you ?" or (in WWI): "Lucky beggar's got a Blighty one !" (ie: one which would mean return home for treatment). Effusive sympathy was in very short supply.

As for our Wound Stripes, (Wiki knows all about them), they were treated with derision among us, and I can safely say I never saw one worn in all my service (five years in war and another 23 in "peace"). Naturally your Purple Heart (being more in the nature of a decoration) had to be worn on uniform, and was, I'm sorry to say, often regarded with good-natured amusement by the "Limeys".

(A penitent) Danny.

Out Of Trim

26th Feb 2016, 00:52

Thanks Danny,

I really enjoyed that episode!

You write so well; you must have a book or two in you. You guys still rock our world. I'm very proud of your type. Just like Arthur Gill.

John Eacott

26th Feb 2016, 02:28

2.Night fighter over Germany - Flying Beaufighters and Mosquitoes in WW2. Graham White. A well written book covering training in the U.S.A. and life as an N.C.O. pilot.

Both add something to the topics raised throughout this wonderful thread.

Before anyone asks I am not on commission:):)

A few dollars well spent on a collection of tales worthy of the Mil Forum :ok:

The author (Graham White) spent his flying time as a sergeant and then Warrant Officer pilot, so you can understand that the telling of tales is much along the line that we are used to. It gets funnier and funnier, I had to stop reading during breakfast on instructions from SWMBO since I was laughing too much!

Very little about Beaufighters except to rate the Mk II as the worst aircraft he knew. Which will give me a topic of conversation with Dad who rated them as nice to fly :hmm:

Nugget90

26th Feb 2016, 08:58

Danny, your comment on 'wound stripes' in relation to crews stationed in the Far East goes some way towards addressing a question I have had concerning a photograph of my late father wearing one in 1945.

After having flown Hurricanes on Station Defence sorties from RAF Hullavington where he was a flying instructor on Harts flown by No 9 Service Flying Training School in September and October 1940 (during the Battle of Britain but not qualifying subsequently for the BoB Clasp as he had not been under the control of Fighter Command), then Wellington ICs with No 115 squadron at RAF Marham, he was sent out to India in mid 1942. Initially he spent time at AHQ before moving up country to fly Wellington 10s with No 215 Squadron which converted to Liberators in August 1944. In September he became its Squadron Commander at Digri and they moved to Dhubalia early in 1945 .

In June 1944, just prior to this conversion, the aircrew were detached to assist No 117 (Transport) Squadron for six weeks to fly Dakotas (C47s) in support of the Army 'over the Hump' due to the pressing need to keep supplies flowing to where they were needed. They flew mainly to Indawgyi Lake, Imphal and Mogaung, losing one entire aircraft and crew.

With the Liberators they flew many offensive missions to the Malay Peninsular and beyond, and took casualties. (Many of these exploits are described by the late Flight Lieutenant W W Fraser RCAF in his book 'A Trepid Aviator' that chronicles the time he spent on operations with No 215.)

Anyway, somewhere along the line my father was wounded (and I can remember the scars he bore). In mid/late1945 he completed his tour with No 215 and flew home, and in a photograph that shows him, his faithful hound* and me (aged 4) taken at that time he bears a wound stripe mounted vertically above the rank braid on his left sleeve. As this is the only photograph of him in uniform that shows him displaying this badge, and as I cannot remember ever seeing him wearing it in later years, I am ready to believe that this might have been something that was peculiar to those who served in the India/Burma theatre but possibly not retained in the UK.

If anyone can add to this, regarding the wearing of wound stripes in the UK, please do so, for I am intrigued!

*The faithful hound was Remus, a cocker spaniel that had been acquired by my parents before the war and supported my mother and me throughout hostilities. We lived at Thorpe Bay, near Southend on the Thames estuary, and when enemy bombers came over on the way to London we would sleep in a metal cage under the drawing room table. Remus gave the first early warnings of the approaching threat by barking - I can only guess that he connected the particular beat of the bombers' engines with the subsequent crashing of explosives and many bright lights in the sky from searchlights, ant-aircraft guns, etc. I have been told that he ignored noises made by allied aircraft!

MPN11

26th Feb 2016, 11:07

A World War earlier, they were certainly worn. Great-Uncle Jack, on the right in 1917, had a couple[1] in addition to his 2-year Good Conduct stripe[2] and Rank stripe. I suspect signalmen inevitably acquired a collection of Wound stripes, given the nature of their work [repairing telephone cables under fire].

Wiki also tells us ... "The badge was reintroduced in 1944 for the Second World War (1939-1945) and was discontinued after 1946."

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wound_stripe
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Conduct_stripe

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm468/atco5473/PPRuNe%20ATC/HG%20amp%20Sons.jpg (http://s319.photobucket.com/user/atco5473/media/PPRuNe%20ATC/HG%20amp%20Sons.jpg.html)

GlobalNav

26th Feb 2016, 13:25

Danny #8225

I took no offense at your comments regarding the decorations, but only wished to offer another perspective on them than you expressed and which you have every right to. No penitence is needed at all. I owe you an apology if my comments have sounded as some sort of correction. They were not.

It's probably good that, like you, those who serve take such things with a healthy grain of salt and humor. Your countrymen and mine who live freely because of what our armed forces accomplished do well to never forget the cost.

Perhaps it's time for someone to pour an ice cold bucket of water over my head and have a laugh. 🍻

MPN11

26th Feb 2016, 14:00

No buckets of water needed ... anyway, it would make a mess on our cyber-crewroom floor. ;)

We all have Service and National differences. The lovely thing is that most of us can laugh about them ... although I'm disinclined to try that with USMC or RM, as I value my remaining health!

Geriaviator

26th Feb 2016, 16:51

I was pleased to see MPN11's picture from the Great War, so often overshadowed by subsequent conflicts.

Alongside aircraft, heavy vehicles have remained a lifelong hobby and I have happy memories of the Leyland Tiger coach I drove for charity groups, for transporting the veterans of two wars for the Not Forgotten Association was a great pleasure. Half a century ago I took a full load of 45 plus two nursing orderlies to the Guinness Brewery in Dublin, and discovered the old warrior in the front seat had flown SE5s as a lieutenant with the Royal Flying Corps in France. He carefully unfolded two 'flimsy' carbon copy sheets of paper which turned out to be the pilot's notes for the SE5, issued to help younger pilots fresh from England. His flying stories on the four-hour drive home included the Sopwith Camel, which he said was a magnificent aircraft despite its reputation.

We had ample time to talk, for the Guinness refuelling staff had been most generous to my passengers. The first request stop came after 10 miles, and puddles anointed every layby between Dublin and Belfast. When summer returned I called to take William for a flight in the Tiger Moth, but sadly he had made his last takeoff only a month before.

andytug

26th Feb 2016, 22:31

I have just finished reading this thread from the start - having begun just after Christmas......! It is without doubt the most interesting, descriptive and well-written bit of oral history I have ever read. There are some cracking books in a similar vein, but they don't have the facility to wander off on fascinating side discussions that this "virtual crewroom" does.
I am not a serviceman, merely a civilian with an interest in the military and engineering areas, but for me somewhere like the IWM should be looking to preserve this thread and any others like it so future generations can read, enjoy and try to understand what it was like for those "ordinary people doing extraordinary things".

Danny42C

27th Feb 2016, 00:53

Danny42C

27th Feb 2016, 02:15

Fareastdriver (your #8218 & 8220),
...“You know this nonsense that the Chinese and Indians are having about their border region. They’re sending out a squadron of Javelins to show Commonwealth solidarity and we, and 214 Squadron, are going to tank them out...
and
...“The Chinese and Indian governments are in dispute over their border in the Himalayas. This has given rise to fisticuffs and now they are beating bigger drums. The Indian Air Force has no all-weather fighter capability so the government, as a sign of support, are detaching 23 Squadron to India until the dispute is settled.”...
Why, in the name of all that's good and holy, were we putting our noses into that hornet's nest ? India, Pakistan (who would have a dog in the fight) and China were all big boys then (and, I think, all nuclear armed). Let them settle their own differences ! Hadn't we all the trouble we wanted in Europe with the Cold War and all that ?

Bit late in putting this comment in, but as I have some old, small knowledge of those parts, I have been researching the history and material available on Google (until I lost the will to live). It is a good thing that the "fisticuffs" mentioned were mainly just high altitude artillery duels and not something far more serious. Interesting, though.

Danny.

ancientaviator62

27th Feb 2016, 08:12

Danny,
as I have made a small contribution to this the greatest of threads I will comply with your request. I will be 74 in May.

Brian 48nav

27th Feb 2016, 08:35

For the first 3 years or so of my membership my age was displayed. Then under 'ATC Issues' another poster disagreed with my opinion and called me a coffin-dodger,which I thought was typical of many people these days who seem to think they can insult others on a forum, yet they probably wouldn't dare do it to one's face!

I have noticed on Military Matters several 'baby-boomers' have been patronised by the expression Cold War warriors - this from younger folk who have seen action and seem to think less of us they assume haven't. I am relieved to say as far as I know no-one shot at me or the aircraft I was in, and after 8 years I left the RAF unscathed! But, many of my fellow baby-boomers stayed in until 55 or even 60 and served in all the actions that have taken place since the Falklands war.

Rant over! By the way I was born in 1946 and had the privilege of flying with many ex WW2 aircrew.

Fareastdriver

27th Feb 2016, 08:56

Ron and a couple of the other members of the squadron were standing clutching their beers as if they had been pole-axed.
“What up?” I asked.
“Bombay’s bloody dry! Some bloke who’s been to the Indian Staff College told us; there’s no bloody booze in the State of Maharashtra”.
We all agreed that if we were going to have a week or so of enforced abstinence we had better start tanking up now.
“What about the chap from 214 Sqn. who had gone to make all the arrangements.
“I know him. He’ll fix something up, there’s no way he will survive out there like that. He could organise a piss-up in a mosque.”

Whist I had been airborne a few more snippets of information had come down. The nine rupees wasn’t changing but they might boost up the laundry allowance to compensate. It had to be that way because we were staying in a hotel and we would have to buy our own food. Bombay was an absolute tip and you can’t even brush your teeth with the water. The Britannia was going to be so full of blokes that all the aircraft spares would have to go in the bomb-bay panniers. They had better be strapped down tightly otherwise the Javelins are going to spend all their time dodging spare wheels and suchlike. We wended on about real and imaginary problems until the bar steward announced that he was closing the bar.

The next morning I went into work at eight-thirty. The Britannia had already arrived with its characteristic silence and was standing on the pan being refuelled. In the crew room the spare crew were lolling about in khaki awaiting nine o’clock when they had to report for the flight. They would be in Bahrain tomorrow morning and they had two days off before their turn came.

We had the routine met briefing and I found out that the crew I had joined had to do a test of the new HDU that had been fitted to our aircraft. No 55 (Victor) Squadron had suddenly found that their in-flight refuelling training programme had been drastically curtailed but they were going to use us to salvage something. The boss hadn’t anything new but he expected to find out a bit more at the station operations brief. Just after that our spare crew lugged their bags over to the Britannia and at about ten the ‘Whispering Giant’ as it was known as took off with hardly a sound from its four turboprop engines. Shortly after it had left our particular Victor used up most of the runway and loads of decibels as its four Sapphires levered it into the air. We weren’t getting airborne until two o’clock so I ran through Brian’s fuel planning to India. It looked fine as far as I could see and as all the co-pilots had cross-referred to each other there was a fairly good chance that it was right.

The flight planning for this trip was minuscule. We were only punching up to Spurn Head and flogging the refuelling racetrack over the North Sea whilst the Victor did its stuff. We couldn’t stay for more than an hour; nor could he because unless he took fuel from us he was going to run short himself. My job was to calculate the take off roll according to the weight of the aircraft. As it was relatively light it was only in the region of 4,500 feet and the three-engine safety speed was before the final stop speed. It was not always the case. In the next few days we were going to spend a long time on runways not being able to stop or take off if we lost an engine. The Valiant acceleration check point, a line across the runway at 1,500 ft, had to be passed at, or in excess of, a calculated speed to prove that the aircraft’s acceleration was normal. That was about the only firm thing you could rely on. This one was about 80knots but 60 was not uncommon. With about an hour to go before take off we changed into our flying kit and boarded the crew bus.

Valiant BKMk1 XD820 was standing alone on the concrete off the perimeter track, pristine in its white anti-flash finish, the inevitable deafening Houchin generating unit running beside it. They were just completing the hose run-out checks and six airmen were vainly tugging at the hose and drogue assembly as it pulled them inextricably under the tail. The crew chief was standing beside the drum, checking that it coiled without any kinks. I clattered up the ladder to the cabin and in there was a sergeant operating the hose from the Nav-radar’s position. As the gauge went to zero there was a clunk as the drogue hit the travel stop and thankfully the Houchin quietened down as it was relieved of a couple of hundred amps.

The Valiant’s cabin was on two levels. The two navigators and AEO sat flying backwards looking at what was known as the coal face. No ejector seats for them. The AEO had the best chance because he was by the door and the poor Nav-Radar had to wait until the other two had gone. Up front the cockpit’s floor was about four feet higher. Two eighty feet per second ejector seats towered over the rear compartment. They had to be big boomers to get you over the tail as they found out when the first person to eject hit the tailplane with a lower powered gun. The seats were 90knots ground level ones but the canopy above them wouldn’t jettison satisfactorily below 120. I picked up the checklist from the AEO’s drawer. Everything was done by challenge-and-response in Bomber Command, even the pre-flight walkround.

We droned around the aircraft confirming that obvious things like engine blanks etc, had been removed. Under the undercarriage bay we confirmed the well being of the two enormous wheels on each unit. The flying controls had electro-hydraulic units that came off the Frazer-Nash gun turret of Second World War vintage. The flaps, two massive barn doors attached to the wings were driven by one motor via a horrific combination of shafts and gearboxes, as were the airbrakes. It had one saving grace. In the last extreme it still had the controls connected to the flying surfaces so it could, uniquely for its size, be flown manually. The walkround completed we went up into the cockpit.

It was a squeeze to get in between the seats to the front. Once sitting on the seat it was comfortable enough as long as the dinghy you were sitting on had been packed properly. You strapped yourself to the parachute and seat separately remembering to connect up the leg restrainers that stopped your feet from flapping around your neck if you were launched into a 600 knot air stream. I had to be especially careful that I strapped myself in tightly. The seat left the end of the triple cartridge gun that telescoped to 8ft at 80ft/sec with a 175lb pilot. I weighed about 155lbs so I was going to go out considerably faster. The rudder bars adjusted conventionally and the flat-bottomed U shaped control wheel could be adjusted for reach. It was mounted on a rod on the side and by pulling out a knob the whole thing could slide forward against the panel out of the way.

We put on our helmets and made sure everybody was on line. Being an all-electric aeroplane all the checks and all the flying functionals could be done with the Houchin before engine start. We closed the bomb doors, did the cockpit checks and the crew chief confirmed that the flying controls and flaps all went the right way. We always started No3 first, probably because it was on the other side of the door. The corresponding throttle was advanced out of the high-pressure gate to ground idle and the captain selected the engine on his start panel and fired it up. The RR Avon 205 was an easy starter and settled down at 3,000 rpm. The other three followed suit, the Houchin would be disconnected and we were ready to go. We stopped at the holding point, checked the take off configuration and when cleared to line up and take off we moved on to the runway.

My job was to look after the engines and call out the relevant speeds. The brakes were man enough to hold the aircraft as I advanced and balanced the engines at 8,000 rpm. I confirmed that everything was as it should be so John released the brakes and at this weight we surged forward. I had one eye on the engines and the other eye awaiting the acceleration checkpoint. As it swept under the nose I looked at my ASI which read 88 knots and called “Up Eight”. Almost immediately afterwards I called “Safety Speed” and at 105 knots which was twenty five before the calculated take off speed I called “Rotate”. John pulled back the control arm smoothly and it got airborne at 130 knots. He called for the undercarriage at about one hundred feet and when that had cleared we pulled up the flaps, pulled back the engines to 7,800 and continued with the rest of the after take off checks.

We settled down at 32,000ft and when we reached Spurn Head we took up the race track to await the Victor. He wasn’t going to be very long so we established 240 knots, opened the bomb doors and streamed the hose. The refuelling basket was a rigid one that looked like a shuttlecock and behaved much the same way. One had to hit it quite firmly to make it work for if you were too gentle the resistance of the valves would drive the hose in.

The Victor came up on the frequency. There was a trial with a Tacan beacon that was fitted to our aircraft, predominately for single seat fighters to find us, and the two AEOs were comparing notes to see if it was working. It apparently was and in a few minutes the Victor drew up beside us. It was the first time for the pilot under training so the instructor was showing him the relative sizes of the tanker and the refuelling gear. In other words he was showing him that he would be practically in the bomb bay. He then fell line astern and having done the preliminaries we cleared him to carry on then sat back and waited.

The pilot under training behind us was a long time bomber pilot and for him to fly in close proximity to another aircraft again was going to take some getting used to. The instructor would formate it just off the drogue to get him used to it and then the pupil would spend at least ten minutes cavorting around it even though it was relatively still. Once he had got used to it then he would be shown the procedure. He asked us for clearance to contact and I switched on the refuelling tanks. The refuelling hose operator cannot see the receiver, not even on a TV. He only knows what is going on via his hose gauge and fuel flow meter.
“Contact.” Paul called, and then commenced a running commentary of what his instruments were telling him. “Five, ten, fifteen, fuel on, three-five, four thousand.”
He had pushed in fifteen feet of hose and was taking fuel at 4,000lbs/min. The Victor then pulled off and asked for some dry contacts.

This time it was the student. “He giving it a nudge, no he’s not. Here he comes; five, ten, five, he’s gone off the end. He’s in again, fivetenfifteentwenty, he’s gone; restreaming.”
When a pilot comes in too fast he invariably goes out so fast that the drum brake comes on and pulls the drogue off. This means that the hose has to be restreamed to its full length. There was a long pause as the Victor flew back to the same airspace as we were using and he tried again. He was getting better and after a couple of sessions holding a reasonable position we were asked to go wet. As the time was being used up it was a good idea and we waited.
Paul started. “He’s in, ten, fifteen, fuel on, four thousand, twenty, twenty-five, twenty, fifteen, twenty.”
He wasn’t the steadiest bloke in the world but for the first time who is. He was now being affected by the increase in weight and was starting to drag out. He overcorrected and came roaring in.
“Thirty, thirty-five.”
I didn’t need to listen; I could see by my control spectacles that he was in close.
“He’s lost it; his probes gone, fuel going off.”
With that Paul hit the stop switch on the pump. The sudden rise in the flow rate to 5,000 plus told Paul that the hose was pumping fuel through an open probe valve into empty air. What had happened was that the Victor had got so close that with a combination of concern and his tailplane coming into our jet wash he had pushed down and taken off the probe end.
A call from the Victor, “We’ve lost our probe, I’m afraid.”
He had seen it before but the new bloke must have been terrified watching a drogue dancing in front of his windscreen shovelling fuel at 5,500 lbs/min all over the cockpit.

There was no harm done, more pride than anything. He was not the first and not going to be the last. We went through the various checks. The hose had to be streamed for twenty minutes to ensure that when it was wound in there was not any fuel in it to deposit itself in our bomb bay. Whilst this was going on I brought the transfer tank on to the fuselage group. I left the bomb bay tank for the port underwing so I could get rid of it at the top of descent jettison checks. By the time the bomb bay doors had been closed up we were approaching the descent point known as REP3 (Radar entry point, thirty thousand feet).

andytug

27th Feb 2016, 09:04

andytug,

May I take it upon myself, as one of the Oldest Inhabitants of our "virtual crewroom", to thank you for your generous and encouraging words of support for this "our" Thread. It was a work of genius by Clifford Leach RIP ("cliffnemo") to start it 7½ years ago; since then it has never looked back, and I don't think has ever been off Page 1 or 2 of the Military Aviation/Aircrew Forum. On this, apart from "Caption Competition", it has the highest number of "hits" of any Thread, and its success is in no small measure due to to the saintly forebearance of our Moderators, who let us "wrinklies" roam off Thread all round the houses and then back again.

Quite a large number of the "founding members" were Liverpudlians (as am I); my maternal grandfather lived in Southport (Linaker Street), and I have fond memories, as a boy in the twenties and thirties, of the times I spent in that charming town. You may not have seen this, but may I offer you <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcGCIoT_bjQ>, which is a lovely video of the Southport I knew as a boy and a young man. I haven't seen the place for forty years and more now, and of course will never see it again.

One small cavil I have with PPRuNe: I think it should be mandatory for our members to declare their ages, for that enables others to put them in the right "time frame" in understanding and composing answers their Posts - (this is NOT a 'dig' at you, but a general observation).

Cheers, Danny.

Danny - I'm in my middle 40s, so a mere whippersnapper compared to the majority of posters here I think :) . I'd be reluctant to compel people to post definite ages as that kind of information on the Internet can potentially be misused (working in IT makes you a bit paranoid about such things!) but think a rough approximation would be fine.
Thanks for the link, have had a quick look and will watch properly later. Sadly Southport like a lot of seaside towns has lost some of it's uniqueness over recent years, the Victorian features mostly remain, but the small shops that gave it character are vanishing and being replaced (or not) by the same chains, takeaways and charity shops as every other town, plus the parking fees are extortionate and backed up by over-zealous attendants! Not all is doom and gloom though, the Kings Gardens and Hesketh Park have both had multi million pound refurbishments and look much better as a result.
Before I wander too far off topic - I did a little research on the local airfields that are no longer with us (e.g HMS Ringtail at Burscough, Blackpool Zoo) and was surprised to find that there was one slap bang in the middle of the beach, just north of the pier! The runway was the beach (so presumably no flying at high tide, but that only lasts an hour twice a day!) and the hangars etc stood on what is now Hesketh Road- and part of the tarmac still remains and is visible on Google Earth next to the existing road!
Living just north of Southport means I get to see most of the annual air show traffic - the two Lancasters and the BBMF flew right over us a couple of years ago, ten Merlins, what a sound, a privilege to see and hear.
A link you might find interesting - old photos of Britain from the air, some of Southport before the coast road was even built!

Britain from Above | Rescue the Past (http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk)